On the "Analogy" - Actually some of the polluters will look to illegal dumping rather than going to the tip.
On the economics. Business do not look all day everyday, but allowing that bit of drama, business will also look at costs as a whole and try to find the easiest cost to reduce. The tip fee may not be one of those. They may find it easier to reduce wages, cut advertising, reduce capital expenditure etc etc etc. They will also look to recoup the expenditure by raising revenue units.
@117425yt Arguing by analogy enables one to explain complex ideas more simply. The PM's rubbish tip analogy explains how a market price (a fee to use the tip) creates a disincentive for the creation of rubbish and encourages reuse and recycling. The existing non-market approach to cutting greenhouse gases allows polluters to pollute for free, but relies on tax payers to fund all the abatement. If you can't understand this distinction, read a basic economics text book.
BTW, The problem with these arguments about the CO2 tax is that people barack rather than discus the issue and debate another. If your smart your not a "Labour Voter" or a "Liberal Voter" etc This is not football. Loyalty in this regard is for idiots.
@MegaEjones There's no credible argument against putting a price on carbon pollution. The alternative is to continue the failed policies of the last decade, which is politicians taking other tax revenue, e.g. from income or company taxes and using that money to fund more and more abatement projects. We have spent about $7 billion on such projects over the last decade but they have accomplished next to nothing.
@ShowsOn Totally agree with you Abatement programs are crap to. they do nothing accept rase costs as will this tax. Tony abbot and the libs are just as complicit when it comes to this whole debate. ( i dont take sides mate. you should try the same)
@MegaEjones So you have two choices at the next election. The Coalition that is going to propose a tax and spend socialist method of funding abatement (that will probably cost 10 times more than they say), or the existing Government that would've implemented a least cost abatement method.
The intelligent sceptic would support the cheaper option, because at the very least it would leave more money available in the federal budget to return to voters as further tax cuts.
Who said I was a sceptic? Not all people who disagree with a carbon tax as a fix are "non believers" or "skeptics". I don't need to be lectured by you I can have my own view thanks very much. I don't have to support one or the other. They are both crap!. What, so you just support something thats not going to do anything just because its the least worst in terms of cost. You think this is a battle of ideology. Thats the problem. Its not.
Is this about economics? Interesting how your trying to sell people by the allure of tax cuts. The public no its a "give in one hand take from the other". (Why else would the polls be so bad for LAB if every one is going to be so well off as they say? Are we all so stupid?. to answer your question I understand Economics fairly well. Do you?. Economics is not just about money. Its about human behavior in relation to Wealth and prosperity. and if you think that equals money your a fool
@MegaEjones Yes it is because at the next election we have to decide if we support retaining a market price on carbon pollution - which is the cheapest way to reduce its production - or if we want to support a party proposing to get rid of the market price and replace it with tax and spend socialist nonsense that in a few decades would bankrupt the country. If you don't understand the distinction between the policies then you're a fool and a tool.
If you think Tony is going to unravel it you are sadly mistaken. You know he wont. He is lying through his ass. Just like Julia. I think as Australians we can do better. Whats on offer from both parties is appalling in my view. Our prim minister is embarrassing and so is the opposition leader. I'm old enough to remember better. You my friend I suspect are not. So I guess I understand why you think you have to vote for this crap as the " Best option" Best of luck. Peace out!
@MegaEjones Oh of course note. Once the ETS passes no government will repeal it because doing so would require buying back all the pollution permits which would cost about $8 billion.
That demonstrates perfectly that Abbott's position is purely political, because his whole campaign against the ETS is based on a lie.
I did not say that it did not apply to services. you have made no correction to my comment. My point is, The GST was a tax reform. It scraped a very complex wholesale sales tax system and it also got rid of a lot of import duties ( or at least that was the idea). It was a simplification at a lower rate on a broader net ( as you pointed out) essentially a harder to cheat system. The old system was complex and open to lets me say bending of truth.
@MegaEjones Yes, just like the ETS will be used to dramatically cut income taxes, including increasing the tax free threshold from $6000 to $18200 from July 1st, 2012. In fact, the effective tax free threshold in 2014/15 will be almost $21,000. Compare that to the introduction of the GST where the tax free threshold was only increased from $4500 to $6000, even though the GST meant many services were taxed for the first time ever.
@ShowsOn Firstly the tax threshold increase is a slight of hand trick. As I understand it they are clawing back other tax credits for low income earners which make it about a 4K net diference in threshold. Dude, why are you cheering for extra tax? Do you really believe that your government is going to take money for something you breath out every second and give it all back to you for ever? BTW I have a bridge for sale if your interested.
@MegaEjones Well you go on about tax reform but now you oppose a government policy to acheive it. The Henry tax review said the low income tax offset should be reduced because it creates high effective marginal tax rates as a person starts quickly pays more tax as they lose the offset. Instead the Government will just increase the tax free threshold, so by 2014/15, almost the first $2100 a person earns will be tax free. I'm astonished that anyone would argue against that!
@MegaEjones The Government's ETS policy is tax reform too, because it is applying a tax to the production of pollution, while using about 30% of the revenue to reduce income taxes which are distortionary. An increase to the tax free threshold was recommended in the Henry review of taxation. You say that the GST was a simplification, but it essentially forced millions of small businesses to use a computer to do their tax returns as they became tax collectors for the ATO.
julia says "theres no incentive" other than the monetary... hmmm i wouldve thought having an inhabitable planet would be an incentive, but most of us seem to ultimately not give a toss about this, compared to our concern for our material wealth or rampantly self-indulgent consumption habits. this is where the real problem lies, and no carbon tax/ETS will do much to change this. we need radical,systemic change NOW; A 5% reduction will have NO positive effect.
Does anyone remember how George W. Bush came to power the first time? In case you don't here is a little summary. First Fox News (Murdoch) reported that he had won in Florida (when it was undecided and it actually went the other way) then all the other news channels believed them and then once it was NEWS it was hard to repeal. Did EVERYONE dislike the TAX at first or was it mind games from the media. Sure look at the polls - but was t
@MsOoker Probably neither, more to do with blatant lies & the lack of ability to provide credible science as to the temperature drop due to the introduction of a CARBON TAX.
I would a lot happier if people stopped listening to News Ltd. and Abbotts spiel about a BIG TAX and did some real research into what it act. means. I mean obv. Murdoch is biased and doesn't want the Tax to go ahead. Not a very objective stance. (Alan Jones or The Daily Telegraph) Of course most of the media follows whatever News Ltd says and then the public goes along because nobody looks into it too deeply. J.G asked "Don't write crap" (National Press Club, 14/7/11) Please don't read crap!
Why must Australians be labelled as eco-terrorists while the Labor governments are helping mining firms destroy our ecology like there is no tomorrow? We have soil and waters that can't be used again for at least a thousand years now but we are the bad people? This tax is a con!
Ok Julia you say " that businesses will look at the TAX for CARBON on their ledger" & will look at ways to cut that cost to improve their bottom line! The first line of profit is to ensure GP, so prices will rise to ensure the GP is maintained. Any cut to the cost wont be passed on to the consumer as they already pay the inflated prices. So the saving becomes Net profit & dividends for O/S owners. Win Win for your mate Julia Loose loose for the TAX PAYER
@unreal22000 Read an economics text book. Prices will settle no higher than necessary to acheive a profit margin. If a business increases its prices beyond that, it can't compete. Businesses may simply pass on permit costs for a few years, but they know that the permit prices will increase, which drives investment in cutting pollution.
@ShowsOn Dont have to read a text book, I have been in business for years. The reality rather than educational text books on theory is that big business ( ANd thats who we are talking about) will rape every cent out of people to ensure profit. Now ask yourself why in the past 2 years electricity prices have risen with continual government warning that we can only expect worse prices to come, Now you add a Carbon tax running into a never ending ETS. It will cost us more forever
@unreal22000 Did you campaign this hard against the GST, which this year alone will raise about $49 billion (that's about 6.5 times more than the ETS!). I also remember when the GST was introduced, initially even small businesses had to file Business Activity Statements once a month, but that was only changed to once a quarter thanks to Labor amendments!
@ShowsOn Not a fan of being an UNPAID tax collector for the government I agree! GST is the bulk tax the government uses to run on ! (Yes) ETS is a TAX to send money over seas for NO proven reason. But further to this the GST wont go because there is a ETS, So we will have 2 big taxes! 1/4ly BAS has produced so many bankrupt companies as they "rob peter to pay paul" Proven in the huge increase in company failures over the past 2 years & increasing!
@unreal22000 Stick to the facts mate. Most of the federal Government's revenue comes from income taxes, that's why the carbon tax will be offset with income tax cuts so people can earn more without handing cash to Canberra. The GST goes to the states, but it is still a federal tax that is imposed using federal legislation.
@ShowsOn So you claim that GST is not a core component in government funds? The offset you claim as so good is temporary ! That is it stops & the TAX gets larger and the TAX PAYER keeps paying. Do you remember the past 22 times I asked you to provide proof of the " net drop in temp but the introduction of CARBON TAX". As you know you never answered, so you back a TAX based without fact! " Heres one for you. " Please explain"
@unreal22000 I made no such claim! You wrote "GST is the bulk tax the government uses to run on", that is WRONG, go to the budget website and look at the document "Australian Government taxation and spending", it clearly shows that INCOME taxes raise $150 billion, whereas the GST will raise $50 billion. So your assertion that the GST is the "bulk tax the government uses to run on" is WRONG! It will take 6 years for revenue for pollution permits to equal the money raised by the GST in 1 year!
@unreal22000 There is $5 billion worth of upgrades going on for just ONE of the THREE power companies in NSW, it has to be paid for somehow.
Not to mention the extra money spent out repairing damage in QLD...and I know for a fact NSW sent crews up there to help them out and restore power and remove hazards from their disasters.
Also, almost everything always costs more, its called inflation, the price of coffee WILL hit $10 a cup one day, get over it.
@jujuinthesky Yea tiger thats an argument! "its called inflation get over it" What? So in your eyes if a coffee is $10 in the future & we will accept it, its a good idea to cop a new tax now so when we get to the coffee exchange rate of $10 we will be paying untold amounts for false bits of paper from O/S companies. Great idea! What part of a CARBON TAX will be spent on disasters? And be careful on that front because I have some nasty lessons after the black sat fires!
Brilliant response.
Ralftheblue 5 months ago
Carbon pollution is a false statement. It doesn't exist.
taouk7 5 months ago
@taouk7 Tell that to the scientists... LOL
brentoneccles 3 months ago
@taouk7 US EPA classifies it as a pollutant
200FuckingPonies 2 months ago
OMG LET'S TALK POLITICS!
darkrealm666 6 months ago
On the "Analogy" - Actually some of the polluters will look to illegal dumping rather than going to the tip.
On the economics. Business do not look all day everyday, but allowing that bit of drama, business will also look at costs as a whole and try to find the easiest cost to reduce. The tip fee may not be one of those. They may find it easier to reduce wages, cut advertising, reduce capital expenditure etc etc etc. They will also look to recoup the expenditure by raising revenue units.
ellicattube 7 months ago
@ellicattube if they could, they would have done it already.
bozomatt 7 months ago
Whoever uploaded this is so left wing.
Eggeman32 7 months ago
@Eggeman32 WRONG!
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@Eggeman32 damn commies, we should just go over to asia and bomb 2 million of their civilians. O WAIT
Adonnus100 3 months ago
Liberal voters- she addressed the question, you just were too busy opposing everything
LachClark 7 months ago 18
@LachClark Labor Voters- You're ruining our country.
Eggeman32 7 months ago 2
she never even answered the question. She did not address the analogy and as such she just ranted! stupid labor fans
117425yt 7 months ago
@117425yt Only someone who has no understanding of economics could misunderstand how she answered the question.
ShowsOn 7 months ago 3
@ShowsOn No, i can clearly see she was on topic, but she just rambles on about her policy not why she made that analogy
117425yt 7 months ago
@117425yt Arguing by analogy enables one to explain complex ideas more simply. The PM's rubbish tip analogy explains how a market price (a fee to use the tip) creates a disincentive for the creation of rubbish and encourages reuse and recycling. The existing non-market approach to cutting greenhouse gases allows polluters to pollute for free, but relies on tax payers to fund all the abatement. If you can't understand this distinction, read a basic economics text book.
ShowsOn 7 months ago 3
that was a huge fall off his horse. self righteous uneducated fool.
ockster85 7 months ago
@ockster85 Well maybe it is a sad indictment on our education system that he has no idea of basic economics?
ShowsOn 7 months ago
hahaha that foolish Young Lib got owned!
ThePositiveAussie 7 months ago 12
BTW, The problem with these arguments about the CO2 tax is that people barack rather than discus the issue and debate another. If your smart your not a "Labour Voter" or a "Liberal Voter" etc This is not football. Loyalty in this regard is for idiots.
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones There's no credible argument against putting a price on carbon pollution. The alternative is to continue the failed policies of the last decade, which is politicians taking other tax revenue, e.g. from income or company taxes and using that money to fund more and more abatement projects. We have spent about $7 billion on such projects over the last decade but they have accomplished next to nothing.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn Totally agree with you Abatement programs are crap to. they do nothing accept rase costs as will this tax. Tony abbot and the libs are just as complicit when it comes to this whole debate. ( i dont take sides mate. you should try the same)
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones So you have two choices at the next election. The Coalition that is going to propose a tax and spend socialist method of funding abatement (that will probably cost 10 times more than they say), or the existing Government that would've implemented a least cost abatement method.
The intelligent sceptic would support the cheaper option, because at the very least it would leave more money available in the federal budget to return to voters as further tax cuts.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn Now you sound like a preacher!.
Who said I was a sceptic? Not all people who disagree with a carbon tax as a fix are "non believers" or "skeptics". I don't need to be lectured by you I can have my own view thanks very much. I don't have to support one or the other. They are both crap!. What, so you just support something thats not going to do anything just because its the least worst in terms of cost. You think this is a battle of ideology. Thats the problem. Its not.
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones Oh sorry. I assumed you understood basic economics. Sorry, my mistake.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn
Is this about economics? Interesting how your trying to sell people by the allure of tax cuts. The public no its a "give in one hand take from the other". (Why else would the polls be so bad for LAB if every one is going to be so well off as they say? Are we all so stupid?. to answer your question I understand Economics fairly well. Do you?. Economics is not just about money. Its about human behavior in relation to Wealth and prosperity. and if you think that equals money your a fool
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones Yes it is because at the next election we have to decide if we support retaining a market price on carbon pollution - which is the cheapest way to reduce its production - or if we want to support a party proposing to get rid of the market price and replace it with tax and spend socialist nonsense that in a few decades would bankrupt the country. If you don't understand the distinction between the policies then you're a fool and a tool.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn
If you think Tony is going to unravel it you are sadly mistaken. You know he wont. He is lying through his ass. Just like Julia. I think as Australians we can do better. Whats on offer from both parties is appalling in my view. Our prim minister is embarrassing and so is the opposition leader. I'm old enough to remember better. You my friend I suspect are not. So I guess I understand why you think you have to vote for this crap as the " Best option" Best of luck. Peace out!
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones Oh of course note. Once the ETS passes no government will repeal it because doing so would require buying back all the pollution permits which would cost about $8 billion.
That demonstrates perfectly that Abbott's position is purely political, because his whole campaign against the ETS is based on a lie.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
I did not say that it did not apply to services. you have made no correction to my comment. My point is, The GST was a tax reform. It scraped a very complex wholesale sales tax system and it also got rid of a lot of import duties ( or at least that was the idea). It was a simplification at a lower rate on a broader net ( as you pointed out) essentially a harder to cheat system. The old system was complex and open to lets me say bending of truth.
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones Yes, just like the ETS will be used to dramatically cut income taxes, including increasing the tax free threshold from $6000 to $18200 from July 1st, 2012. In fact, the effective tax free threshold in 2014/15 will be almost $21,000. Compare that to the introduction of the GST where the tax free threshold was only increased from $4500 to $6000, even though the GST meant many services were taxed for the first time ever.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn Firstly the tax threshold increase is a slight of hand trick. As I understand it they are clawing back other tax credits for low income earners which make it about a 4K net diference in threshold. Dude, why are you cheering for extra tax? Do you really believe that your government is going to take money for something you breath out every second and give it all back to you for ever? BTW I have a bridge for sale if your interested.
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones Well you go on about tax reform but now you oppose a government policy to acheive it. The Henry tax review said the low income tax offset should be reduced because it creates high effective marginal tax rates as a person starts quickly pays more tax as they lose the offset. Instead the Government will just increase the tax free threshold, so by 2014/15, almost the first $2100 a person earns will be tax free. I'm astonished that anyone would argue against that!
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn Woops, that should be 21000!
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@MegaEjones The Government's ETS policy is tax reform too, because it is applying a tax to the production of pollution, while using about 30% of the revenue to reduce income taxes which are distortionary. An increase to the tax free threshold was recommended in the Henry review of taxation. You say that the GST was a simplification, but it essentially forced millions of small businesses to use a computer to do their tax returns as they became tax collectors for the ATO.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
The GST replaced Wholesale sales tax
MegaEjones 7 months ago
@MegaEjones Correction: The GST applies to services and many goods that were never subject to WST.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
grow a pube junior
alSation81 7 months ago
bet that punk is a "YOUNG LIBERAL".
bastardson73 7 months ago
julia says "theres no incentive" other than the monetary... hmmm i wouldve thought having an inhabitable planet would be an incentive, but most of us seem to ultimately not give a toss about this, compared to our concern for our material wealth or rampantly self-indulgent consumption habits. this is where the real problem lies, and no carbon tax/ETS will do much to change this. we need radical,systemic change NOW; A 5% reduction will have NO positive effect.
bastardson73 7 months ago
yeah shut up drew brees
emiliodefantiful 7 months ago
Does anyone remember how George W. Bush came to power the first time? In case you don't here is a little summary. First Fox News (Murdoch) reported that he had won in Florida (when it was undecided and it actually went the other way) then all the other news channels believed them and then once it was NEWS it was hard to repeal. Did EVERYONE dislike the TAX at first or was it mind games from the media. Sure look at the polls - but was t
MsOoker 7 months ago
@MsOoker sry were the polls influenced by us or were we influenced by the media??? I don't like being messed with.
MsOoker 7 months ago
@MsOoker Probably neither, more to do with blatant lies & the lack of ability to provide credible science as to the temperature drop due to the introduction of a CARBON TAX.
unreal22000 7 months ago
I would a lot happier if people stopped listening to News Ltd. and Abbotts spiel about a BIG TAX and did some real research into what it act. means. I mean obv. Murdoch is biased and doesn't want the Tax to go ahead. Not a very objective stance. (Alan Jones or The Daily Telegraph) Of course most of the media follows whatever News Ltd says and then the public goes along because nobody looks into it too deeply. J.G asked "Don't write crap" (National Press Club, 14/7/11) Please don't read crap!
MsOoker 7 months ago
Why must Australians be labelled as eco-terrorists while the Labor governments are helping mining firms destroy our ecology like there is no tomorrow? We have soil and waters that can't be used again for at least a thousand years now but we are the bad people? This tax is a con!
TheNakedWombat 7 months ago
Ok Julia you say " that businesses will look at the TAX for CARBON on their ledger" & will look at ways to cut that cost to improve their bottom line! The first line of profit is to ensure GP, so prices will rise to ensure the GP is maintained. Any cut to the cost wont be passed on to the consumer as they already pay the inflated prices. So the saving becomes Net profit & dividends for O/S owners. Win Win for your mate Julia Loose loose for the TAX PAYER
unreal22000 7 months ago
@unreal22000 Read an economics text book. Prices will settle no higher than necessary to acheive a profit margin. If a business increases its prices beyond that, it can't compete. Businesses may simply pass on permit costs for a few years, but they know that the permit prices will increase, which drives investment in cutting pollution.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn Dont have to read a text book, I have been in business for years. The reality rather than educational text books on theory is that big business ( ANd thats who we are talking about) will rape every cent out of people to ensure profit. Now ask yourself why in the past 2 years electricity prices have risen with continual government warning that we can only expect worse prices to come, Now you add a Carbon tax running into a never ending ETS. It will cost us more forever
unreal22000 7 months ago
@unreal22000 Did you campaign this hard against the GST, which this year alone will raise about $49 billion (that's about 6.5 times more than the ETS!). I also remember when the GST was introduced, initially even small businesses had to file Business Activity Statements once a month, but that was only changed to once a quarter thanks to Labor amendments!
ShowsOn 7 months ago 3
@ShowsOn Not a fan of being an UNPAID tax collector for the government I agree! GST is the bulk tax the government uses to run on ! (Yes) ETS is a TAX to send money over seas for NO proven reason. But further to this the GST wont go because there is a ETS, So we will have 2 big taxes! 1/4ly BAS has produced so many bankrupt companies as they "rob peter to pay paul" Proven in the huge increase in company failures over the past 2 years & increasing!
unreal22000 7 months ago
@unreal22000 Stick to the facts mate. Most of the federal Government's revenue comes from income taxes, that's why the carbon tax will be offset with income tax cuts so people can earn more without handing cash to Canberra. The GST goes to the states, but it is still a federal tax that is imposed using federal legislation.
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@ShowsOn So you claim that GST is not a core component in government funds? The offset you claim as so good is temporary ! That is it stops & the TAX gets larger and the TAX PAYER keeps paying. Do you remember the past 22 times I asked you to provide proof of the " net drop in temp but the introduction of CARBON TAX". As you know you never answered, so you back a TAX based without fact! " Heres one for you. " Please explain"
unreal22000 7 months ago
@unreal22000 I made no such claim! You wrote "GST is the bulk tax the government uses to run on", that is WRONG, go to the budget website and look at the document "Australian Government taxation and spending", it clearly shows that INCOME taxes raise $150 billion, whereas the GST will raise $50 billion. So your assertion that the GST is the "bulk tax the government uses to run on" is WRONG! It will take 6 years for revenue for pollution permits to equal the money raised by the GST in 1 year!
ShowsOn 7 months ago
@unreal22000 There is $5 billion worth of upgrades going on for just ONE of the THREE power companies in NSW, it has to be paid for somehow.
Not to mention the extra money spent out repairing damage in QLD...and I know for a fact NSW sent crews up there to help them out and restore power and remove hazards from their disasters.
Also, almost everything always costs more, its called inflation, the price of coffee WILL hit $10 a cup one day, get over it.
jujuinthesky 7 months ago
@jujuinthesky Yea tiger thats an argument! "its called inflation get over it" What? So in your eyes if a coffee is $10 in the future & we will accept it, its a good idea to cop a new tax now so when we get to the coffee exchange rate of $10 we will be paying untold amounts for false bits of paper from O/S companies. Great idea! What part of a CARBON TAX will be spent on disasters? And be careful on that front because I have some nasty lessons after the black sat fires!
unreal22000 7 months ago
Once again she is lying, and was part of an organized pro mo put on by our neutral media mates at the ABC.. Rubbish.
Adirtybird 7 months ago
Go JG!
thearcher1980 8 months ago 4
Holy fuck labor is retarded.
Eggeman32 8 months ago
@Eggeman32 you're retarded.
Jackosan12 7 months ago