@musicofnote1 No matter how well a dog is trained they are and always will be an animal capable of taking unexpected behavior. Training doesn't stop once the canine is "trained". You will always be reinforcing what the dog has learned through training repetition. What you don't do is commence training the dog using a flat collar, correcting by pulling on it can hurt the dogs neck if you correct with it. Always use a Check Chain during training. No canine is Perfect.
@Berserkism - "Always use a Check Chain during training." Why use corrections, when you can teach the dog to do it right the first time? I haven't needed to use a chain in over 35 years, yet have trained dogs in SAR, nosework, field trials and now freestyle. I also deal with dog-dog reactivity and dog-human reactivity and use no physical aversives whatsoever, all sorts of dog ranging from Lhasa Apso to Bull Mastiff. Now if little 'ol me can do that, why do you need to use pain and fear to train?
@musicofnote1 I train with and use Guard dogs. Using a check chain doesn't cause pain and fear, please don't act so obtuse. If you really are a "trainer" as you call yourself then you would know the proper application of such. Have you ever had to retrain a dangerous dog? Dogs that are already animal aggressive? Dogs that are already aggressive to humans? And you are going to trust the dog to do the right thing all the time? First time?! Check Chains work as do Prong Collars.
@Berserkism - if you click onto my profile, you'll see that I'm a certified trainer and behavior consultant. I specialize in dealing with fear aggression. Tell me this. If a "check chain" (weasel talk for choke chain) doesn't hurt, why not put it on your kids and keep them in line with one? Check (choke) chains work through pain on the one hand and avoidance of further pain (fear) on the other. Plain, simple fact and anything else claimed is either ignorance or deliberate.
@musicofnote1 We do. If our children are unruly we smack them. Not out of sadistic reasons but out of love. Dogs do not understand human concepts and live in OUR society. They must be taught that improper behavior is unacceptable. What your are talking about is creating dangerous dogs that do what they like through no perceived consequence. This is why we have laws that punish criminals, and regulations that govern acceptable dog behavior. I am using dogs that can KILL. DISCIPLINE!
@Berserkism - see right there. My father beat the crap out of me, my mother not much better. So I swore never to lay a hand on my kids because I know what beating me did to our relationship. I never laid a hand on my kids to discipline them, yet they were disciplined. My daughter is finishing medical school and my son is a sociologist and happily married. We enjoy a very good family relationship. Using pain, fear, intimidation or coercion is not necessary.
@musicofnote1 Someone with your emotional instability should not be training dogs. Dogs are incredible at reading human body language and emotional states. It rubs off in Training, which is why you don't train in highly emotional states. It can leave the dog a nervous wreck because the dog is under so many conflicting signals from you. Best get your issues with your Fear, Pain, Violence mantra dealt with. Put the Past where it belongs. Stop applying your mental state to dogs.
@Berserkism - You still haven't answered the quest: If there are proven effective training methods not relying upon pain, fear, intimidation, why use a choke chain? why can't you answer this simple moral, ethical question. You're good at cast aspersions as to how I feel or what I do or don't do. i'm not the one using pin to train. Insult and injury seems your SOP - good for a policeman, whether with dogs (choke chains) or humans. Answer the simple question.
@musicofnote1 Nice how you insult the very people who keep you and your precious family so safe. Way to go Hero. It isn't a Moral or Ethical question, none of the dogs are injured,sad,afraid etc. Stop making stuff up. The dogs are happy, productive stars of the canine working world, you dare to compare yourself to all these success stories, far more than your methods. The Arrogance. You took a course(bad one)and so desperately want to been seen as relevant, but you aren't. Too bad.
@musicofnote1 After this I am not entering into any more correspondence with you. I pointed you in the right direction, to a man who could make you see what you are doing is wrong. I have told you of all the success over hundreds of years. You can see the dogs aren't hurt or anything else you describe. Your Arrogance disgusts me as does your view of the dogs, men and women who lay down their lives for you, such an ingrate. I told you way at the start, you had your answer, They Work
@Berserkism - People can read laws and understand the moral and ethical implications of their actions. Dogs cannot. When we punish dogs, we do so in ways that are foreign to them, usually exaggerated in relation to the crime, the crime itself being a concept they cannot fathom. Besides, it's been proven by scores of people who work positively with dogs of all breeds and all behavioral conditions, that positive methods are more effective than violence. Why use violence, when better methods exist?
@musicofnote1 Animals have no powers of reasoning and you are applying human attributes to an animal. Canines live in pack structures, if they do something wrong they are disciplined quickly by the pack leader. This has worked in nature for longer than man has had Society and you want to change that because your Parents were scumbags? I don't care about your shitty life, it's idiots like you that make dangerous dogs because you treat them like human children.
@Berserkism Do the animals in this video look abused? Unhappy? Do they have some sort of mental condition that you dreamed up and applied to them? NO. Methods that have been in place longer then you have been alive and you seek to discard them out of arrogance because you do not the proper way a dog thinks or the reasons they behave the way they do. Go do another fake course so you can claim another fake credential. Leave the real Trainers to it, have another Valium, it'll be alright
@musicofnote1 Dogs understand the implications of displeasing the Pack Leader because they ARE dogs. All your claims are for shit. You clearly know nothing of Canine Psychology, case in point; pointing out how your children turned out. ONCE AGAIN dogs are not HUMANS. They crave the structure of the Pack. You are weak in the eyes of your canine companions, they don't love and respect you, they manipulate you and you let them because you have a mental condition from your childhood.
@musicofnote1 How do you go from Check Chains to full blown physical and mental abuse of a child? You see how disproportionate your reasoning is. Are people in this clip abusing their dogs? You are so far of tangent and need to deal with your own personal issues. There is a massive difference between discipline and abuse. With your childhood it is no wonder you can't differentiate between the two. To even suggest that people who train this way are Dog Abuses is way out of line.
@Berserkism "How do you go from Check Chains to full blown physical and mental abuse of a child?" because YOU wrote: "If our children are unruly we smack them. Not out of sadistic reasons but out of love." Unless someone is a masochist, that's not love. That's lack of loving ways to communicate disproval and teach what one want. It's ignorance. Is that how your partner show disapproval with you? Is that how you understand love being communicated to you by your partner?
@musicofnote1 - and besides, the question remains. If there are non.violent means to train, proven effective, why use violence? there is no excuse for using fear, pain or intimidation, when the same short term end result is the same. I've yet to come across or hear of a dog-training problem that cannot be worked through nov-violently. If ignorance of the law is no excuse, then ignorance of non-violent training methods is also no excuse. Plenty of people have made the switch, including me.
@Berserkism - my motivations for raising children shows nothing more, than the fact, that violence is not necessary to do so. I never said, I was an abused child. in that day and age, it was normal. Spare the rod and all that. But the relationship that broke when I grew up and didn't need my parents was broken. Our dogs neever reach that point. They learn to put up with it. Most trainers who use violence don't really care what signals a dog sends showing fear. Compliance is demanded. that's it.
@musicofnote1 - Sit means sit. the compulsion trainer doesn't care, that the dog might know there's a piece of glass on the ground or the dog has physical problem. Doesn't care. Sit means sit. Now, the argument, that you can't have hesitation or questioning is moot. who amongst the compulsion trainers has ever gotten a perfect score in trials? It's not a computer or push-button robot. 90-95% is still considered excellent.
@musicofnote1 - The fact that corrections are still necessary after training only shows that choke chain training is not nearly as effective as people say. If I were to follow a compulsion trainer around with a video camera, he/she would be surprised, how often corrections are applied. Are you aware of the term avoidance training? Google "operant conditioning". Avoidances of what? Search the scientific literature about the comparative effectiveness of positive based learning compare to neg.
@musicofnote1 The point you are trying to make, Are Check chains abuse? Which is the argument you have put forward. Lets examine. All the canines that are currently and have served in the Armed Services, Police Forces, Special Forces etc. How many have used Check Chains for Training purposes? All. Do they have severe mental conditions which make them unable to function due to abuse? No.The training was and still is successful. Can't argue with facts.
@musicofnote1 You are very much into the Science of it. Please do research on Pack Structure. This is Truth to a Dog. There is no other way. They are dogs. Full Stop.
It's your actions that are aberrant to the Canine, it's your rules that don't make sense. It's your way of thinking that doesn't mesh. Dominance and Submission. These are not evils to a Canine. They understand them. They need structure, this not abuse. Study Wolves and see for yourself please the way a dog truly is.
@musicofnote1 You talk about they way you do things. Has your dog ever stopped a serious assault? Apprehended a Drug Dealer? Stop a bank Robber? Tracked a Child Murderer down? Found a missing child? Prevented a Terrorist act? Found Illegal weapons used in the commission of Crimes? Been to War Zones? Discovered IED's? Found people Lost in the Wilderness? Saved a life? Saved dozens? These dogs (Military and Para Military) have. They are a proven entity. Trained with Check Chains.
@Berserkism - Never said you can't train with choke. I asked the question: if there are proven effective ways to train without using pain, fear, intimidation, why would you CHOOSE to train so? All of the activities you've mentioned have been performed by dogs trained without chokers, trained with positive methods. So again the question. Why train with choke chains when there are non-aversive methods available to you?
@musicofnote1 They can't and haven't achieved anywhere near close to the "activities" as you have tried to belittle them. These "activities" have keep you and your family safe and our society functioning. Hundreds of Thousands of Peak Performing Canines. These training methods are not Pain, Fear and Intimidation. These canines are not Sad, Depressed, Loathing, Fearful, Intimidated or any other "buzz" word you can think of. NONE of your dogs are doing this work! But they are.
@musicofnote1 Once again, Human quotes talking about Humans not Canines. I keep having to tell you over and over, you just go round and round on the same tangent. You are being Obtuse on purpose I am sure. DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS. Once again, DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS! When you finally understand this maybe you can move on to the PROVEN (by every single canine squad in the WORLD) and EFFECTIVE manner of TRAINING that gets the REAL RESULTS. Stop playing at Training.
@musicofnote1 Do I really have to go and dig up the names of every single trainer that has successfully trained dogs with check chains to an amazing standard? Cause god damn I could be at that forever! You can't match numbers of success here. Don't even try. You called yourself a JERK? : )
@Berserkism - I called no one a jerk. Those who can read are at an advantage. Try reading it again. Do you jerk a choke chain? hmmm. but you still haven't answered the other question - simple one really. With the proven effective non-violent training methods, not dependent upon pain, fear or intimidation, why do you still use aversives?
“Violence begins where knowledge ends.” -Abraham Lincoln
“In dog training, ' jerk' is a noun, not a verb.” -Dr. Dennis Fetko.
@musicofnote1 You would be at an advantage if you could comprehend, 'jerk is a noun, not a verb". You do know the difference between a Noun and a Verb. Try reading it again.
@Berserkism - BTW - coming back to an earlier statement from you:
"if you have a dog trained right, they dont even notice the collars, cause you never have to use it."
If you've trained your dog right, you don't NEED the collar anymore. If a choke collar is a training tool, then either the training worked or it didn't. If they don't feel it anymore, then it's not effective. But if the training has been effective, there is no call to use it. They simply obey with out it.
@musicofnote1 That was not a statement for me, please get your facts right. No person or dog is perfect, hence why Olympic Athletes can't score perfect(very rare) best Trained Soldiers are killed, Doctors and Lawyers make mistakes, Canine perform aberrant actions contrary to training form time to time. What we make them do isn't normal for the dog. What you do isn't normal for the dog. Sometimes they will do something out the ordinary. Let training slip, performance will suffer.
@Berserkism - If it's necessary as a management tool, then the training is not finished and the dog shouldn't be in service. Where possibility exists, that he doesn't obey. Th idea from obedience s, that a command is given and then obeyed. Well, if you give a command and the dog doesn't obey, then either the training is not finished or wasn't effective. If the dog obeys consistently, then you don't need the management tool.
@musicofnote1 Firstly you aren't qualified to state that a dog should or should not be in service. There is always the possibility that a dog won't obey. YES the idea is that a command is give and the dog obeys but yourself have argued against this. "Trained Disobedience" was your mantra. No Training is ever finished, it is always ongoing, the fact you haven't yet grasped this most basic of concepts shows your iniquities as a "Trainer". Repetition to ensure consistent behavior.
@Berserkism - "There is always the possibility that a dog won't obey." No, not according to you and what you write. If a dog doesn't obey, the dog is not trained. A dog that is trained, obeys. You use a choke collar to train the dog to obey, because peoples' lives are dependent upon it. Your statement. If the dog isn't reliable, a choke collar won't fix that. that's why Schlegel was called to Africa to retrain their dogs - unreliable, mostly in the out and they HAD been trained with choke.
@Berserkism - "Trained Disobedience" was your mantra." But you discounted that as a possibility. SO now you're anting it both ways. You train a dog to obey, but can't quarantee any more than I can with positively trained dog, that the dog will "out" immediately every time. So we come full circle back to the question you won't answer. When positive methods reach the same or even better results (see my video) why choose pain, fear and intimidation to train? Maybe because you don't KNOW how to?
@musicofnote1 Once again you are off on an EXTREME tangent related to abuse in your past. Sitting on glass? Doesn't care? Who asks their dog to sit on glass? You assume that people who use a check chain make their dogs sit on glass? Stop with the ridiculous and outrageous arguments. I work Guard Dogs. Do you understand? When i say leave off the attack it MUST be RIGHT THEN. This isn't a Trial, it's REAL LIVES at stake. You keep coming back abuse, extreme abuse. That isn't Training!
@Berserkism You obviously don't understand the meaning of the "sitting on glass" situation. Do you know the term intelligent disobedience? This also has to do with life or death situations but is based on the same principle of having a THINKING dog, not a pain/fear driven robot. And yes, intelligent disobedience is trained with positive methods. "When i say leave off the attack it MUST be RIGHT THEN." Why is it that I can achieve the same "leave" with my dog in a high-drive with no force?
@musicofnote1 Leave your failed analogy in the heap. The dogs don't perform out of Fear. Where do you come with this as the motivation? Do the dogs on this video look afraid? Intimidated? Once again you are applying Human Concepts to an animal. A dog does not think in such terms. They seek to please the Pack Leader. If you are weak they will manipulate you. Their Intelligence is far different than ours.
Think about sitting on glass for a minute. You give a command "sit". the dog doesn't because there is glass. Why not? Because the dog is thinking, not just blindly reacting. Now think about the term "intelligent disobedience". Do you know what that is? it too has to do with life and death of the dog's handler. And is trained most easily with positive methods. Oh, and why can I train a high-drive "out" without any aversives at all? I certainly am not the better trainer than you, but I do it.
@musicofnote1 You want a trained dog that is so smart it disobeys you? Trained and Disobedience, this is an Oxymoron. I can't have an attack trained dog making up it's own mind when and how it is going to display it's intelligence through disobedience. I told you that you were creating dangerous dogs and I was right. Dogs don't want to Sit, or Stay, or Heel, or Fetch. Or any other "trick" because these are foreign to the nature of the animal. Your training is already aversive.
@Berserkism - Those who can read are at an advantage. I did not write "trained disobediance" I wrote "Intelligent disobedience" which is trained. Do you know the meaning of aversive? Obviously not. who determines what is rewarding or aversive? i suggest you learn about operant and classical conditioning. But once again. There are proven effective positive methods for training anything you as a police office need from a dog without pain, fear or violence. Why choose the aversives?
@musicofnote1 Like you said "Which is Trained" therefore Trained Disobedience. Once again you apply human quotes to the Canine. Abraham Lincoln was not a dog trainer. You called yourself a Jerk? You know nothing of dog psychology. They are not HUMAN. How many times do I have to keep telling you this. Philosophical doesn't enter into it. You keep saying Fear, Pain, Violence. None of which has been demonstrated or takes place. You have lost all validity. You are playing at training.
@musicofnote1 I will direct you to a man who has proven over many decades how to train canines. He has successfully trained and retrained dogs hopelessly destroyed by your failed methodologies. Literally thousands and I do mean thousands over the years, From the RAAF to Police, Trials as well as Corrective Services. No bragging, no running down of others, this man is unpretentious and right on the money. I want you in particular to read the Introduction. rossallan (dot) com.
@musicofnote1 90 to 95% is Excellent! Olympic athletes train for decades only to score an 8, an 8.5, a 9. How many get the perfect score? A few. That magical moment! If it was so easy the bar would need to be raised. You see Trailing is about the pursuit of Perfection. The bar is set so high so that you have something to continually strive for. This is the point. But apparently you have achieved perfection. Look down your nose at others from your high place.
@musicofnote1 Incorrect, dogs can fathom right from wrong. It exists in the Wolf Pack. Punishment is swift and dealt out as seen fit by the Alpha. We of course do not use extreme methods as you have deluded yourself into believing. But correction is not a concept foreign to the Canine.Positive reinforcement is always given for the correct action. Can't you see that? No. because you have no idea what you are talking about.Your "Certification" isn't worth the paper it is written on.
@Berserkism - I don't know about you, but I'm neither a dog nor a wolf. Dogs are not wolves. And dogs know that we are not dogs. Has been scientifically established. so any dog-like or wolf-like correction on a dog will work, but not because they understand that as coming from some kind of 2-legged wolf or dog. It will work because of the laws of Learning Theory according to Watson, Thorndike, Skinner and Co. Tthat means positive punishment works based upon avoidance. Google is your friend.
@musicofnote1 - but back to the question: Since methods exist that do not rely on pain - and a choke collars works because it HURTS - , fear - fear of that choke collar hurting again - intimidation, why would anyone choose to use pain, fear and/or intimidation instead?
I'm sure you know Michael Ellis. He's often said, that he only uses aversives when his own training was done poorly and he has to correct the product of his own training. At least he's honest.
@musicofnote1 cause they're the easiest. they work great, and they dont damage the hair in the neck like other collars do. choker chains arent bad, if you have a dog trained right, they dont even notice the collars, cause you never have to use it.
"if you have a dog trained right, they dont even notice the collars, cause you never have to use it."
LOL, then don't. Train the dog, then use a normal collar or a harness.
musicofnote1 3 months ago
@musicofnote1 No matter how well a dog is trained they are and always will be an animal capable of taking unexpected behavior. Training doesn't stop once the canine is "trained". You will always be reinforcing what the dog has learned through training repetition. What you don't do is commence training the dog using a flat collar, correcting by pulling on it can hurt the dogs neck if you correct with it. Always use a Check Chain during training. No canine is Perfect.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - "Always use a Check Chain during training." Why use corrections, when you can teach the dog to do it right the first time? I haven't needed to use a chain in over 35 years, yet have trained dogs in SAR, nosework, field trials and now freestyle. I also deal with dog-dog reactivity and dog-human reactivity and use no physical aversives whatsoever, all sorts of dog ranging from Lhasa Apso to Bull Mastiff. Now if little 'ol me can do that, why do you need to use pain and fear to train?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 I train with and use Guard dogs. Using a check chain doesn't cause pain and fear, please don't act so obtuse. If you really are a "trainer" as you call yourself then you would know the proper application of such. Have you ever had to retrain a dangerous dog? Dogs that are already animal aggressive? Dogs that are already aggressive to humans? And you are going to trust the dog to do the right thing all the time? First time?! Check Chains work as do Prong Collars.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - if you click onto my profile, you'll see that I'm a certified trainer and behavior consultant. I specialize in dealing with fear aggression. Tell me this. If a "check chain" (weasel talk for choke chain) doesn't hurt, why not put it on your kids and keep them in line with one? Check (choke) chains work through pain on the one hand and avoidance of further pain (fear) on the other. Plain, simple fact and anything else claimed is either ignorance or deliberate.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 We do. If our children are unruly we smack them. Not out of sadistic reasons but out of love. Dogs do not understand human concepts and live in OUR society. They must be taught that improper behavior is unacceptable. What your are talking about is creating dangerous dogs that do what they like through no perceived consequence. This is why we have laws that punish criminals, and regulations that govern acceptable dog behavior. I am using dogs that can KILL. DISCIPLINE!
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - see right there. My father beat the crap out of me, my mother not much better. So I swore never to lay a hand on my kids because I know what beating me did to our relationship. I never laid a hand on my kids to discipline them, yet they were disciplined. My daughter is finishing medical school and my son is a sociologist and happily married. We enjoy a very good family relationship. Using pain, fear, intimidation or coercion is not necessary.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Someone with your emotional instability should not be training dogs. Dogs are incredible at reading human body language and emotional states. It rubs off in Training, which is why you don't train in highly emotional states. It can leave the dog a nervous wreck because the dog is under so many conflicting signals from you. Best get your issues with your Fear, Pain, Violence mantra dealt with. Put the Past where it belongs. Stop applying your mental state to dogs.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - You still haven't answered the quest: If there are proven effective training methods not relying upon pain, fear, intimidation, why use a choke chain? why can't you answer this simple moral, ethical question. You're good at cast aspersions as to how I feel or what I do or don't do. i'm not the one using pin to train. Insult and injury seems your SOP - good for a policeman, whether with dogs (choke chains) or humans. Answer the simple question.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Nice how you insult the very people who keep you and your precious family so safe. Way to go Hero. It isn't a Moral or Ethical question, none of the dogs are injured,sad,afraid etc. Stop making stuff up. The dogs are happy, productive stars of the canine working world, you dare to compare yourself to all these success stories, far more than your methods. The Arrogance. You took a course(bad one)and so desperately want to been seen as relevant, but you aren't. Too bad.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 After this I am not entering into any more correspondence with you. I pointed you in the right direction, to a man who could make you see what you are doing is wrong. I have told you of all the success over hundreds of years. You can see the dogs aren't hurt or anything else you describe. Your Arrogance disgusts me as does your view of the dogs, men and women who lay down their lives for you, such an ingrate. I told you way at the start, you had your answer, They Work
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - People can read laws and understand the moral and ethical implications of their actions. Dogs cannot. When we punish dogs, we do so in ways that are foreign to them, usually exaggerated in relation to the crime, the crime itself being a concept they cannot fathom. Besides, it's been proven by scores of people who work positively with dogs of all breeds and all behavioral conditions, that positive methods are more effective than violence. Why use violence, when better methods exist?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Animals have no powers of reasoning and you are applying human attributes to an animal. Canines live in pack structures, if they do something wrong they are disciplined quickly by the pack leader. This has worked in nature for longer than man has had Society and you want to change that because your Parents were scumbags? I don't care about your shitty life, it's idiots like you that make dangerous dogs because you treat them like human children.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism Do the animals in this video look abused? Unhappy? Do they have some sort of mental condition that you dreamed up and applied to them? NO. Methods that have been in place longer then you have been alive and you seek to discard them out of arrogance because you do not the proper way a dog thinks or the reasons they behave the way they do. Go do another fake course so you can claim another fake credential. Leave the real Trainers to it, have another Valium, it'll be alright
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Dogs understand the implications of displeasing the Pack Leader because they ARE dogs. All your claims are for shit. You clearly know nothing of Canine Psychology, case in point; pointing out how your children turned out. ONCE AGAIN dogs are not HUMANS. They crave the structure of the Pack. You are weak in the eyes of your canine companions, they don't love and respect you, they manipulate you and you let them because you have a mental condition from your childhood.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 How do you go from Check Chains to full blown physical and mental abuse of a child? You see how disproportionate your reasoning is. Are people in this clip abusing their dogs? You are so far of tangent and need to deal with your own personal issues. There is a massive difference between discipline and abuse. With your childhood it is no wonder you can't differentiate between the two. To even suggest that people who train this way are Dog Abuses is way out of line.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism "How do you go from Check Chains to full blown physical and mental abuse of a child?" because YOU wrote: "If our children are unruly we smack them. Not out of sadistic reasons but out of love." Unless someone is a masochist, that's not love. That's lack of loving ways to communicate disproval and teach what one want. It's ignorance. Is that how your partner show disapproval with you? Is that how you understand love being communicated to you by your partner?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 - and besides, the question remains. If there are non.violent means to train, proven effective, why use violence? there is no excuse for using fear, pain or intimidation, when the same short term end result is the same. I've yet to come across or hear of a dog-training problem that cannot be worked through nov-violently. If ignorance of the law is no excuse, then ignorance of non-violent training methods is also no excuse. Plenty of people have made the switch, including me.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@Berserkism - my motivations for raising children shows nothing more, than the fact, that violence is not necessary to do so. I never said, I was an abused child. in that day and age, it was normal. Spare the rod and all that. But the relationship that broke when I grew up and didn't need my parents was broken. Our dogs neever reach that point. They learn to put up with it. Most trainers who use violence don't really care what signals a dog sends showing fear. Compliance is demanded. that's it.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 - Sit means sit. the compulsion trainer doesn't care, that the dog might know there's a piece of glass on the ground or the dog has physical problem. Doesn't care. Sit means sit. Now, the argument, that you can't have hesitation or questioning is moot. who amongst the compulsion trainers has ever gotten a perfect score in trials? It's not a computer or push-button robot. 90-95% is still considered excellent.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 - The fact that corrections are still necessary after training only shows that choke chain training is not nearly as effective as people say. If I were to follow a compulsion trainer around with a video camera, he/she would be surprised, how often corrections are applied. Are you aware of the term avoidance training? Google "operant conditioning". Avoidances of what? Search the scientific literature about the comparative effectiveness of positive based learning compare to neg.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 The point you are trying to make, Are Check chains abuse? Which is the argument you have put forward. Lets examine. All the canines that are currently and have served in the Armed Services, Police Forces, Special Forces etc. How many have used Check Chains for Training purposes? All. Do they have severe mental conditions which make them unable to function due to abuse? No.The training was and still is successful. Can't argue with facts.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 You are very much into the Science of it. Please do research on Pack Structure. This is Truth to a Dog. There is no other way. They are dogs. Full Stop.
It's your actions that are aberrant to the Canine, it's your rules that don't make sense. It's your way of thinking that doesn't mesh. Dominance and Submission. These are not evils to a Canine. They understand them. They need structure, this not abuse. Study Wolves and see for yourself please the way a dog truly is.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 You talk about they way you do things. Has your dog ever stopped a serious assault? Apprehended a Drug Dealer? Stop a bank Robber? Tracked a Child Murderer down? Found a missing child? Prevented a Terrorist act? Found Illegal weapons used in the commission of Crimes? Been to War Zones? Discovered IED's? Found people Lost in the Wilderness? Saved a life? Saved dozens? These dogs (Military and Para Military) have. They are a proven entity. Trained with Check Chains.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - Never said you can't train with choke. I asked the question: if there are proven effective ways to train without using pain, fear, intimidation, why would you CHOOSE to train so? All of the activities you've mentioned have been performed by dogs trained without chokers, trained with positive methods. So again the question. Why train with choke chains when there are non-aversive methods available to you?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 They can't and haven't achieved anywhere near close to the "activities" as you have tried to belittle them. These "activities" have keep you and your family safe and our society functioning. Hundreds of Thousands of Peak Performing Canines. These training methods are not Pain, Fear and Intimidation. These canines are not Sad, Depressed, Loathing, Fearful, Intimidated or any other "buzz" word you can think of. NONE of your dogs are doing this work! But they are.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - You cannot say that about Steve White and his people or Robert Millner and his people. Besides:
“Violence begins where knowledge ends.” -Abraham Lincoln
“In dog training, ' jerk' is a noun, not a verb.” -Dr. Dennis Fetko.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Once again, Human quotes talking about Humans not Canines. I keep having to tell you over and over, you just go round and round on the same tangent. You are being Obtuse on purpose I am sure. DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS. Once again, DOGS ARE NOT HUMANS! When you finally understand this maybe you can move on to the PROVEN (by every single canine squad in the WORLD) and EFFECTIVE manner of TRAINING that gets the REAL RESULTS. Stop playing at Training.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Do I really have to go and dig up the names of every single trainer that has successfully trained dogs with check chains to an amazing standard? Cause god damn I could be at that forever! You can't match numbers of success here. Don't even try. You called yourself a JERK? : )
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - I called no one a jerk. Those who can read are at an advantage. Try reading it again. Do you jerk a choke chain? hmmm. but you still haven't answered the other question - simple one really. With the proven effective non-violent training methods, not dependent upon pain, fear or intimidation, why do you still use aversives?
“Violence begins where knowledge ends.” -Abraham Lincoln
“In dog training, ' jerk' is a noun, not a verb.” -Dr. Dennis Fetko.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 You would be at an advantage if you could comprehend, 'jerk is a noun, not a verb". You do know the difference between a Noun and a Verb. Try reading it again.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - BTW - coming back to an earlier statement from you:
"if you have a dog trained right, they dont even notice the collars, cause you never have to use it."
If you've trained your dog right, you don't NEED the collar anymore. If a choke collar is a training tool, then either the training worked or it didn't. If they don't feel it anymore, then it's not effective. But if the training has been effective, there is no call to use it. They simply obey with out it.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 That was not a statement for me, please get your facts right. No person or dog is perfect, hence why Olympic Athletes can't score perfect(very rare) best Trained Soldiers are killed, Doctors and Lawyers make mistakes, Canine perform aberrant actions contrary to training form time to time. What we make them do isn't normal for the dog. What you do isn't normal for the dog. Sometimes they will do something out the ordinary. Let training slip, performance will suffer.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 euorope0wnz stated that.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - If it's necessary as a management tool, then the training is not finished and the dog shouldn't be in service. Where possibility exists, that he doesn't obey. Th idea from obedience s, that a command is given and then obeyed. Well, if you give a command and the dog doesn't obey, then either the training is not finished or wasn't effective. If the dog obeys consistently, then you don't need the management tool.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Firstly you aren't qualified to state that a dog should or should not be in service. There is always the possibility that a dog won't obey. YES the idea is that a command is give and the dog obeys but yourself have argued against this. "Trained Disobedience" was your mantra. No Training is ever finished, it is always ongoing, the fact you haven't yet grasped this most basic of concepts shows your iniquities as a "Trainer". Repetition to ensure consistent behavior.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - "There is always the possibility that a dog won't obey." No, not according to you and what you write. If a dog doesn't obey, the dog is not trained. A dog that is trained, obeys. You use a choke collar to train the dog to obey, because peoples' lives are dependent upon it. Your statement. If the dog isn't reliable, a choke collar won't fix that. that's why Schlegel was called to Africa to retrain their dogs - unreliable, mostly in the out and they HAD been trained with choke.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@Berserkism - "Trained Disobedience" was your mantra." But you discounted that as a possibility. SO now you're anting it both ways. You train a dog to obey, but can't quarantee any more than I can with positively trained dog, that the dog will "out" immediately every time. So we come full circle back to the question you won't answer. When positive methods reach the same or even better results (see my video) why choose pain, fear and intimidation to train? Maybe because you don't KNOW how to?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Once again you are off on an EXTREME tangent related to abuse in your past. Sitting on glass? Doesn't care? Who asks their dog to sit on glass? You assume that people who use a check chain make their dogs sit on glass? Stop with the ridiculous and outrageous arguments. I work Guard Dogs. Do you understand? When i say leave off the attack it MUST be RIGHT THEN. This isn't a Trial, it's REAL LIVES at stake. You keep coming back abuse, extreme abuse. That isn't Training!
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism You obviously don't understand the meaning of the "sitting on glass" situation. Do you know the term intelligent disobedience? This also has to do with life or death situations but is based on the same principle of having a THINKING dog, not a pain/fear driven robot. And yes, intelligent disobedience is trained with positive methods. "When i say leave off the attack it MUST be RIGHT THEN." Why is it that I can achieve the same "leave" with my dog in a high-drive with no force?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Leave your failed analogy in the heap. The dogs don't perform out of Fear. Where do you come with this as the motivation? Do the dogs on this video look afraid? Intimidated? Once again you are applying Human Concepts to an animal. A dog does not think in such terms. They seek to please the Pack Leader. If you are weak they will manipulate you. Their Intelligence is far different than ours.
Berserkism 1 month ago
Think about sitting on glass for a minute. You give a command "sit". the dog doesn't because there is glass. Why not? Because the dog is thinking, not just blindly reacting. Now think about the term "intelligent disobedience". Do you know what that is? it too has to do with life and death of the dog's handler. And is trained most easily with positive methods. Oh, and why can I train a high-drive "out" without any aversives at all? I certainly am not the better trainer than you, but I do it.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 You want a trained dog that is so smart it disobeys you? Trained and Disobedience, this is an Oxymoron. I can't have an attack trained dog making up it's own mind when and how it is going to display it's intelligence through disobedience. I told you that you were creating dangerous dogs and I was right. Dogs don't want to Sit, or Stay, or Heel, or Fetch. Or any other "trick" because these are foreign to the nature of the animal. Your training is already aversive.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - Those who can read are at an advantage. I did not write "trained disobediance" I wrote "Intelligent disobedience" which is trained. Do you know the meaning of aversive? Obviously not. who determines what is rewarding or aversive? i suggest you learn about operant and classical conditioning. But once again. There are proven effective positive methods for training anything you as a police office need from a dog without pain, fear or violence. Why choose the aversives?
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Like you said "Which is Trained" therefore Trained Disobedience. Once again you apply human quotes to the Canine. Abraham Lincoln was not a dog trainer. You called yourself a Jerk? You know nothing of dog psychology. They are not HUMAN. How many times do I have to keep telling you this. Philosophical doesn't enter into it. You keep saying Fear, Pain, Violence. None of which has been demonstrated or takes place. You have lost all validity. You are playing at training.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 I will direct you to a man who has proven over many decades how to train canines. He has successfully trained and retrained dogs hopelessly destroyed by your failed methodologies. Literally thousands and I do mean thousands over the years, From the RAAF to Police, Trials as well as Corrective Services. No bragging, no running down of others, this man is unpretentious and right on the money. I want you in particular to read the Introduction. rossallan (dot) com.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 90 to 95% is Excellent! Olympic athletes train for decades only to score an 8, an 8.5, a 9. How many get the perfect score? A few. That magical moment! If it was so easy the bar would need to be raised. You see Trailing is about the pursuit of Perfection. The bar is set so high so that you have something to continually strive for. This is the point. But apparently you have achieved perfection. Look down your nose at others from your high place.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 Incorrect, dogs can fathom right from wrong. It exists in the Wolf Pack. Punishment is swift and dealt out as seen fit by the Alpha. We of course do not use extreme methods as you have deluded yourself into believing. But correction is not a concept foreign to the Canine.Positive reinforcement is always given for the correct action. Can't you see that? No. because you have no idea what you are talking about.Your "Certification" isn't worth the paper it is written on.
Berserkism 1 month ago
@Berserkism - I don't know about you, but I'm neither a dog nor a wolf. Dogs are not wolves. And dogs know that we are not dogs. Has been scientifically established. so any dog-like or wolf-like correction on a dog will work, but not because they understand that as coming from some kind of 2-legged wolf or dog. It will work because of the laws of Learning Theory according to Watson, Thorndike, Skinner and Co. Tthat means positive punishment works based upon avoidance. Google is your friend.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
@musicofnote1 - but back to the question: Since methods exist that do not rely on pain - and a choke collars works because it HURTS - , fear - fear of that choke collar hurting again - intimidation, why would anyone choose to use pain, fear and/or intimidation instead?
I'm sure you know Michael Ellis. He's often said, that he only uses aversives when his own training was done poorly and he has to correct the product of his own training. At least he's honest.
musicofnote1 1 month ago
Why choke collars?
musicofnote1 6 months ago
@musicofnote1 cause they're the easiest. they work great, and they dont damage the hair in the neck like other collars do. choker chains arent bad, if you have a dog trained right, they dont even notice the collars, cause you never have to use it.
europe0wnz 3 months ago
Follow the training from puppy till Police Dog by a Dutch KNPV trainer at K9 Dogs Europe
k9dogseurope1 6 months ago
you guys need to see the Falco K9 Academy if you want to see K9 dogs in action!
AXIS12FALCON 6 months ago
Very good!!!!!!
SOZRASH 1 year ago
PUPPIES!!!
17894fd 1 year ago 2
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My GSD love the agility course he could not wait to do that part :)
KIZERVONZINGER 1 year ago
My GSD love the agility corse he could not wait to do that part :)
KIZERVONZINGER 1 year ago
For Jason Gleason !
trevorlongisland 2 years ago
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lovelymadmex 2 years ago
schefer is a best dog in the world
Shahwo 3 years ago