"Prices, wages, work hours, etc etc should be LAISSEZ-FAIRE! A free market is free." Going by that, an employer could say "we have a job for you. It's 80 hours a week mandatory, 3 cents a day, no overtime, no benefits. If that's not good enough, there's 100+ other people willing to take that job". And it doesn't really do much good to go anywhere else when everyone else is doing the same thing. TO BE CONTINUED....
And if the employer is paying workers in say, company script( a common practice before unions or labor laws, which was only good for rent on usually overpriced company housing or usually overpriced goods at the company store), then there's really no way to pay tuition to study for a better job.
True, and we need to FORCE politicians to not only swear to uphold the Constitution, but to actually do it.
I've only voted Libertarian since 1996, and will NEVER give my vote to a socialist Republicrat ever again. If you believe in limited government, personal responsibility, liberty, and capitalism, then the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party are the only choices out there.
If you like socialism, then vote for either major party.
Libertarian and Constitution parties? You're just throwing away your vote. It's the Republican Party that has kept America strong and relevant. Of course Buttfuck Osama and the Dumbasscraps will surrender us to the mudscum and force us to convert to their satanic 5th century moon god death cult.
Darrel, your boy Bush fucked us royally. He added a couple trillion to our national debt, blew the surplus Clinton left us, attacked a country that hadn't attacked us, alienated the rest of the CIVILIZED world, including our allies, left our borders pretty much unguarded- terrorists could just walk in. And still no sign of Osama.
The Dems will force us to convert to Islam? Wow, whoever would've thought that "atheist libs" were actually Islamic fundies! Or is it the other way around?
Pbirv, both parties are a disgrace when it comes to the border and illegal immigration. Neither lift a finger to stop the flow of illegals coming in because big business (who give tons of money to both parties) loves the cheap labor, and both parties are afraid they'll offend the hispanic vote.
In short, both parties are full of self-serving whores who put their political careers above the best interests of their country.
Anyone that gives their vote to a Republicrat is a fucking moron.
If it was up to be, all unions would be outlawed, declared to be terrorist groups, then hammered with both RICO and the Patriot Act. Their assets and property would be seized, their members and supporters would be executed or sent to Gitmo to do butt pyramids with their mudscum butt buddies.
Wal Mart saves money by sending all of your groceries with chemicals together lose on a truck on the General Merchandise side only the groceries that come on that truck are marked down. They also stack heavy freight on top of the PS3 or computer you bought. Wal Mart is evil they only save you cents. I would rather spent an extra 2.00 on my shopping trip than give Wal Mart that extra 2.00. I worked for the corrupt giant and use your common "cents" and spend 2 cents extra for that dvd player.
moist182, unions are the world's biggest extortian rackets. They shake down companies for free money by threatening them to either cough up or else they'll fuck up their operation by striking.
Unions have fucked themselves though. After decades of demanding more and more money and benefits for less and less work, many companies have finally said fuck you, and moved their factories to Mexico or China. I don't blame them one bit.
you want north america to be like china? you have no idea what your saying your in some kind of a dream world where you picture yourself on top and everybody works for you. you look at any country that has no unions, theres a name for them oh yeah 3rd world countries so wake up.
moist182, long ago, there was a need for unions in America. However, we no longer need them. There are plenty of fair labor laws that protect workers from evil employers. Unions have evolved into extortion rackets that suck the blood out of companies, and protect useless workers who should be fired. 3rd world countries are getting our jobs BECAUSE OF UNIONS.
I've heard many stories from union workers. Sleeping on the job for hours, slacking off, going home early, etc etc.
it was the unions that instigated these labour laws you think the companies did that? ive been a member of iuoe for 18 years and i work my ass off in extreme weather conditions -45 most of this winter in northern canada. i earned every penny and benefits i got. my dad who was a member same union for over 50 years gets $2500 month in [union pensions] plus he gets reinbersed for road trips to the doctor motels etc.
moist182, I'm not saying that many blue collar jobs aren't hard. My best friend's job was physically grueling and dangerous too. What I'm saying is that if there are scores of people willing to take those jobs for $10/hour, why should a company be forced to pay its workers $20/hour? The market should dictate what a job is worth, not a union or government.
Just because unions did some good in the past doesn't mean they are good today.
because you have to fight for what you get , bottom line you think these corporations are going to be fair to everyone? they never have been unless the workers stood together and fought for whats right.
You're missing the fact that unions are a part of the market. A thousand individual workers by themselves are easy to exploit and intimidate, as history and the present display. The mere presence of strong unions in similar industries is a powerful bargaining tool for workers and acts to counterbalance the enormous wealth and capital wielded by large corporations. Repeat: unions are the workers acting in their own self-interest, like any corporation would.
baseballnolie34, I understand what a union is, but in the USA, union workers have gone too far and essentially priced themselves out of the marketplace. Companies would rather pay an eager Chinese or Mexican worker $1/hour to put a screw in a hole instead of paying an American union worker $22/hour to do the same job. Like you said, the corporations are simply acting in their own self-interest, just as unions do.
right on!!! thats what i was trying to say it should be like europe where theres 3 parties sitting at the table the company the contractor and the union, that way theres no blaim on anybody about who is ripping off who. its all on paper.
God, Bryan you really are naive. You wrote "There are plenty of fair labor laws that protect workers from evil employers..." See, that just goes to show that you know information, but you have no idea how things work. Do you think those laws enforce themselves? Do you think they are easy to enforce? To enforce these laws requires...lawyers! Courts! Time! Money! Hellloooooo! Not only that, there are third world countries that have more comprehensive labor laws than ours. Get a clue.
Plus, if unions disappeared, how long do you think it'd be before corporate lobbyists and their right wing buddies started working to roll back the labor laws if not outright repeal them?
Pbirv, I got news for you, unions are disappearing. The vast majority of American workers aren't unionized. Unions are largely what destroyed the American automotive industry, thanks to their inflated wages they've been extorting out of the Big 3 for decades. I'm a lifelong Detroit area native, and I'm very much in touch with the industry.
But getting to your point, government/corporate collusion is a big problem, I agree. That, along with big government socialism, MUST END.
"Unions are largely what destroyed the American automotive industry"
And crappy gas guzzling car designs and inept management, who still get rewarded for their fuckups with golkden parachute packages worth millions, had nothing to do with it?
I agree that unions, like all large organizations, have their problems and are long overdue for an overhaul, but overall do more good than harm. At the very least they give the worker a measure of balance against overly greedy and abusive employers.
moist182, one more thing, unions don't provide you with jack shit. The company you work for, and the wealth it creates by providing a product or service to society, is the source of your wages and benefits. All unions do is suck the blood out of companies and give them nothing but lazy malcontent workers in return.
moist182, a free-market world with limited government, or "my world" as you call it, gives everyone the environment to pursue wealth in the manner they choose, and doesn't rob half of the fruits of their labor through taxation.
In the world of unions and big government socialism, or your world, people are rewarded for being lazy, unproductive, and irresponsible, at the expense of productive, hard-working people.
you think im lazy? i probly work harder and sacrifice more than you do. and yeah the union supplies me with all that i said it does you think i made it up, if it wasnt for the union i wouldnt get half of what i get.the companies sure wouldnt give it to out of the goodness of their own hearts. read the history books " the company store" is good one. all about the coal mines, workers charged goceries at stores owned by companies they worked for knowing they will always be in debt to them.
moist182, that's just my point, perhaps you don't deserve half of what you get because of the union extortian racket. I don't know what your story is, but since when does an uneducated blue collar slacker deserve an upper middle class income, 3 cars, and a big house on the hill??
My stupid lazy slob of an uncle is a prime example. He rode the UAW gravy train for 30 years, got paid far more than his dumb ass was worth, and thought his shit didn't stink. No wonder cars cost so much.
we had one fatality and a couple non fatal accidents this year ,the old timers remember a time when someone died all they did was wrap the body in a tarp and take them back after the shift was over, today because of the labour laws the union fought for we had a work stoppage to find out exactly what happened and fix the problem.
moist182, so your company has little sympathy for its workers who get injured or killed? Sad, but how much sympathy does your union have for the company when it hits hard economic times? Eh? Do you give a rat's ass if their profits are down, if they have to lower or eliminate dividends to stockholders, or if they have to lay off white collar workers? Of course you don't. You only care about your paycheck. The apathy goes both ways.
it wasnt just one company it was the way things were accepted throughout the workforce management to be exact. hard economic times allways hit the workforce before any company suffered layoffs etc,as for white collar workers they seem to take care of themselves just like a union good for them.
i am proud to be a 3rd generation member of a union, i work hard and carry the respect for the trade my forefathers gave. theres pride in what you do. and i will carry that feeling all my career they are the ones i look for guidance and respect no one else.
moist182, you should also have deep respect for the entrepreneurs who took a chance, put their life savings at stake, and started the company that you now work at. Without the so-called evil greedy businessmen, there would be no companies and no jobs for society.
if it wasnt for unions it wouldnt be worth working for them either. everybody has to look out for themselves im on the other side of the fence than you consider yourself.
moist182, like I said, only the market should dictate what a job is worth. If a person isn't satisfied with his job's pay, then he should work at getting qualified for a higher paying job.
Who's better off at age 45, someone who bettered himself since a young age and worked his way up the ladder, or someone who relied on his union to extort him more pay than his job is worth, only to be unemployed and unskilled when his factory finally moves to Mexico? Unions doom people in the long run.
if you let a company dictate what a job is worth you know what will happen the rich get richer and the will get poorer its in the history books, working class always gets shafted while ceo"s gave themselves raises etc the working class suffered more than anybody. what you call extortion i call fighting for your rights. did you check deffered taxes yet? corporations are still ripping off the tax payer owned by the richest people in the world.
moist182, the marketplace dictates what a job is worth, NOT the employer. Employers only pay people what they must to fill the positions. Workers, in effect, sell their labor in the marketplace. The market sets their hourly value, just as it sets the value of the widgets they produce.
Rights? Nobody has a right to a wage. Wages are something people must earn. Taxes? That's a whole other debate, but I'm against income taxes in general, for individuals or companies.
obviously the companies are against income tax too but i still have to pay mine. as for what a job is worth unions usually set the standards that even affects the nonunion wages in the same trades it keeps them up.... live better work union.
actually im better off with the union i get a pension plan when i retire, health care, dental, and good wages. if i kissed ass to climb a ladder i wouldnt have any of that only a conscious that bothered me.
moist182, there's other ways to work your way up the ladder besides kissing ass and getting promotions within a company. Ever heard of starting your own business? What a concept, eh? I've been self-employed for most of my adult life.
maybe i dont want to start my own business i work in the oilfields in the north, you want me to compete with exxon and mobil? sure but i need a partner lets go.
So whats the answer? China is only going to produce cheaper and cheaper goods until nobody can possibly compete and must go out of business...then what? Are you saying that workers in the US should make as much as a Chinese Factory worker so that we can "compete?" Wouldnt that be moving back instead of moving forward? Unless you own your own magin business, Wouldnt your business be affected too? Dont you think this foreign competition is the problem?? You need to see the big picture.
jbrentoniv, first of all, what is a "magin business?" Second, the answer certainly isn't forcing people to keep buying the higher priced goods or services. A free market means you can take your business where you like, whether you're an individual or a company.
If the Chinese or Mexicans are willing to do the grunt work for us and make widgets for pennies on the dollar, you would be a fool to keep buying them here for sky high prices.
Yeah, that was supposed to read "magic business." Not sure what happened there. Anywho, the point Im trying to make is that we are so socially conditioned to believe that these workers are "pricing themselves out of a job." We have a high standard of living in America, and that is steadily crumbling. How can the other countries produce for such low prices? Is it that they have a unpampered workforce, or do the workers live in poverty and will take whatever little money they can get?
jbrentoniv, who cares how they can work so cheaply? The point is that they WILL work that cheaply, and to a business looking to buy someone's labor, that's all that matters.
One of the reasons for our declining living standard is the ever-increasing TAX BURDEN that we're saddled with. The government is irresponsible, spends our money like drunken sailors, causes massive debt and all sorts of problems, then wants more of our money to create new agencies to fix the problems that they created.
Hey, I never said that I didnt get it. I do, if I had a business I would do the same thing. My point is that its gone too far. The Unions are not the remedy for this problem. We know that a Union cant help you if the plant closes shop. Maybe Im getting at something a little more extreme than Unionism, and it has to do with restructuring and repositioning ourselves in the global market, and a heavy dose of Nationalism. I have kids, I dont want to see their future sold for profits.
If you get it then what are you arguing about? Gone too far? Unions are the CAUSE of this problem. If they didn't suck the companies dry for decade after decade, demanding more and more pay and benefits for less and less work, and produce lazy disgruntled workers with lousy work ethics, then American companies might not have been so eager to close up shop and move their factories overseas. But they did, and I don't blame them one bit.
jbrentoniv(part 2): The American workers that lose their jobs? Sad, but that's life in a free market. If you price yourself out of the market, as American unions have done, then companies will go elsewhere for labor, just as you'll shop around for the best deal on a TV, house, tank of gas, etc.
America has to evolve, because the days of easy to find, lucrative, lifetime blue collar job are long gone. Maybe now more people should think about college, trade school, or creating their own job.
Why are they long gone? "Pricing yourself out of a market," I think the more accurate way to say that is that they are being undercut and sold out. Do you think that this is not going to affect you? I can be the fair intellectual and say its just the price of capitalism...but we are talking about dissolving the middle class. Im not a communist, but there is something wrong with that. America does have to evolve, but I think what youre supporting is regression and economic slavery.
jbrentoniv, they are long gone because foreign workers are willing to do those jobs for pennies on the dollar, that's why. Hellooo.
Why does the middle class have to only consist of unionized factory workers? I'm middle class, but I went to college and now run my own vending business. My dad is middle class and he's an Architect, my brother is middle class and works at a car auction.
It's time for people to stop counting on the union gravy train and make their own opportunies instead.
I think we have a pretty big disconnect here. You arent listening. The middle class does not primarily consist of Unionized workers. That wasnt my point, and I never said that. The fact is that there are unsympathetic people like yourself who are watching the sky fall all around them, but think somehow they will be safe on their island of self employment. Im starting to think your just a very naive person. Im wasting your time and mine.
jbrentoniv, nobody is safe in this world. There are no guarantees in life, not from unions, from governments, or from self employment. The sky is falling for many reasons, but mostly because of our out of control government who has put us trillions of dollars in debt.
What exactly is your point? So far you haven't made any. All you've done is hint that we need to outlaw companies from outsourcing. If we do that, we no longer have a free market system.
I've made quite a few points. My ultimate point is that there are so many reasons why the working man is in danger, yet the media is telling the people that the schools are underfunded and your kids cant get a good education because of the teachers Union. You yourself use the buzz words "Union Gravy Train" which is very common. Its sounds to me like youve never been in a Union, and you have a friend who had a bad experiance...that hardly makes you an authority.
The govt. has a poor track record in doing anything well. The free market can nearly always do things more efficiently. You want to see the education system improve in America? PRIVATIZE IT.
Also, how is it fair and just that a single man with no kids (like myself) is forced to pay the same property taxes as my next door neighbor who has 5 fucking kids in the school system?! Don't give me the tired BS argument for socialism, how is improves society, helps me in the long run, blah blah.
If I have any BS rebuttles for you, its because youve got a lot of tired complaints: why do I have to pay taxes if I dont have children, I never call the police, I dont go to public parks, I dont plan to take social security...on and on and on. If you dont want to be American then get out. If you dont want to contribute then dont call yourself an American.
I said why should I pay THE SAME amount in property taxes as someone with 5 kids. I have no problem paying a tax if I get something in return, but a large portion of a property tax bill goes toward funding the public school system. (Have you ever owned property?)
If I have zero kids, then I get nothing for my money, understand? It's not my responsibility to raise other peoples' kids, and educating a kid is part of raising a kid.
I do own property, and I have two kids. Before I had kids and had my own plumbing business I paid $600 a WEEK in taxes when I lived in California , and I didnt see any benefits from it, or so I thought. Its a part of life. In reality, it is our job to raise other people's kids. Its called society. We all pay into the pot and when its our turn we collect, or at least thats the idea. But I get it, you are a self sufficient rock. ok.
It's my job to raise kids that aren't mine? Oh really? I thought that's what PARENTS are supposed to do. What ever happened to their responsibility??
If it's my responsibility to pay for the education of all children, then why stop there? Let's force everyone to pay for food, clothing, daycare, Flintstone vitamins, shoes, etc. Kids need many things to turn out right, so where does it end? You can take that same flawed justification for public schools and apply it to anything.
If you don't pay for the kids one way, you'll end up paying another. You can pay for their education, food clothing, housing, now, or you can pay for their incarceration when they get into adulthood. Courtrooms and jail cells cost way more than schooling.
Pbirv, what part of "RAISING YOUR KIDS IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY" don't you understand? Education is only one of many factors that lead to a kid turning out right.
Adequate attention, proper nutrition, proper socialization, etc. all play a role. If you can rationalize why I should pay for your kid's education, then why not add all the other things on the list? Daycare, Flintstone vitamins....where does it fucking end?!
PARENTS MUST RAISE THEIR KIDS. Can't afford to? Then DON'T HAVE KIDS!!!
I agree that too many people are having kids who aren't prepared for them or who can't afford them, but should the kids be made to pay for their parents' fuckups? No they shouldn't. If we privatize education, there's gonna be a lot of kids whose parents can't afford or won't pay the tuition for the private schools. What do we do with those kids? Would you rather have them roaming the streets? I'd rather see them in school, even if that means paying taxes for it.
Pbirv, if you subsidize irresponsible behavior, you get more of it. So, public schools aren't the answer. If all schools were privatized, property taxes (and rents) would go down, giving parents more money to pay for tuition. Besides, public schools have become worthless.
If their kids are roaming the streets and not being raised properly, then the state should take the kids away and put them in foster homes. That would make many parents shape up fast, don't you think?
Private schools can refuse kids whose parents aren't of the right religion or belong to the right church, or who don't live in the "right" neighborhood, or whose parents are single or divorced, or who live with aunts/uncles, or whose parents are a mixed race/religion couple or a gay/lesbian couple, or who have a learning disability- most private schools aren't equipped or staffed to deal with learning disabled kids. Federal law only bans discrimination based on gender, race, or national origin.
The good thing about public schools is that everyone has an opportunity to be educated, regardless of religion, sexual orientation, handicap, background, etc.
I went to public schools from kindergarden thru college and I turned out OK.
NOTE ABOUT ABOVE COMMENT- That's "Private schools can refuse kids whose parents aren't of the "right" religion or don't belong to the "right" church".
Pbirv, yes, but you're an old fart, like me. Public schools (and parenting skills) were much better back in the day.
You're talking about religious private schools. Again, so what? There are also non-religious private schools. Like I said, there's something for everyone in the free market.
You need to drop this notion that government must be our parents, nannies, and teachers. Those are tasks that free, responsible people must perform in their lives. Nothing given by the govt. is "free."
Pbirv, so what? There's a private school for everyone, and if all schools were privatized, there would be even more. Schools are a business like any other business. They sell a service, and you don't make a profit by refusing customers.
Everyone would be able to find a school just as easily as they could find a dry cleaner. Give me a break. And, if there is a market for disabled kids education, that demand will be met, like any other demand in the marketplace.
"There's a private school for everyone"- Maybe, but if all schools are privatized, kids of minority religious beliefs may well have to travel an hour or more to get to the nearest school for their belief, or if the nearest such school is too far to commute, their parents may have to move to a city that has such a school, assuming of course they could find a job in that city.
Pbirv, maybe, maybe not. Life if full of uncertainties. But, one thing I would bet on is that the education would be worth the travel compared to the likely shitty education he would receive down the block at the government school.
And again, if enough people live in an area who demand a certain kind of school, that demand will get met in a free market. If their demand is unique, then they'll have to move where that unique school is. Life goes on.
In addition, privatizing the schools may well in many parts of the country create an effect not too unlike the racially segregated schools in the South before the 1950's-60's, only this time segregation along religious lines. I'm sure you're aware of how the racially segregated school system turned out to be- such a system hardly fosters good relations between different groups of people.
Pbirv, are we talking about schools, or churches?? Call me crazy, but aren't schools places where you learn the 3 R's, and aren't churches/places of worship places where you pray and worship? What has caused the 2 places to merge in the past 10 years?? Bloody fucking hell.
Most private schools, certainly where I live, are run by some church or religious group. If the schools are privatized, the ones that aren't religious would be flooded with applicants, in many cases more than the school could handle, with the result that many students would get turned away or put on a waiting list. What happens to them?
Pbirv, you really can't think 10 steps ahead, can you? If demand exceeds supply, then the supply will be increased.
The same thing would happen if demand for Ford cars increased by 8000% overnight. Ford would hire more workers and build more factories to meet the increased demand.
Eventually the supply would be increased, but building those new schools or enlarging the existing ones would take time. What do the kids on the waiting lists do in the meantime?
Pbirv, you really want to find an excuse for socialism, don't ya? The lag time won't be a problem if all the government schools were simply sold to private companies. The same buildings would be used, they would just be privately owned.
Of course, many would need renovating, thanks to the inefficiency and wastefulness of government.
Furthermore, it wouldn't take private developers much time at all to build new schools. They could have shiny new schools up and running in under a year (barring any zoning/government hassles, or course).
"They could have shiny new schools up and running in under a year (barring any zoning/government hassles, or course)."
Yes they could, but since private companies are operating strictly for profit, they may likely cut corners on construction- unscrupulous contractors, shoddy materials, workers who aren't properly qualified if not actually illegal immigrants, with the result that the buildings may well end up being unsafe- the walls may collapse, it may be a fire hazard.. etc..
Pbirv, haven't you ever heard of building codes? Those apply to any new building being constructed, including schools. Nothing would change in that area.
Besides the building codes, don't you think it would hurt an education companies business if word got out that their building was unsafe? A safe building is in the company's best interest.
Would you shop at a store if the ceiling kept caving in on the customers?
There are building codes, but you'd be surprised how many contractors seek ways to skirt them so they can pocket the diufference. I lived in AZ for 4 years, and at least 1-2 contractors that I know of there were charged with some kind of violation of those laws, in addition to hiring illegals.
If a school is found to be unsafe, education companies can usually find some way to shift the blame, putting investigators on a big runaround.
So, you're saying that dishonest behavior is only found in capitalist systems? lol Dishonesty is a human trait that will always be around, and punishing dishonest/fraudulent behavior IS one of government's legitimate roles.
Private education companies can shift the blame where ever they want, but if the building is unsafe, people won't send their kids there. So, profit is a strong incentive for making sure their building gets built properly.
No, I didn't say that. Any system you have will have some dishonest people in it. Lack of government oversight however makes it a lot easier for those people to get away with, as we've seen with the banks.
The banking collapse was more a result of the government printing vast amounts of worthless paper dollars which inflates the currency, and by putting pressure on banks via legislation to give loans to people who couldn't afford to repay them. This caused housing values to inflate due to all the easy credit out there, until the bubble burst.
Remember how politicians loved to say that "homeownership has increased during our administration"? You sure don't hear them saying that now, do ya?
BOTH parties deserve their share of the blame. We can't ignore the role that deregulation, including the repeal of Glass-Stegall had in this fiasco. We need a strong 3rd and 4th, maybe even 5th party in the worst way imaginable.
Pbirv, to be clear, most private schools are religious schools, because they are a niche market. Most people use the government schools because they can't afford to pay tuition twice (once in property taxes, then again directly to the private school).
Take away the government education monopoly racket and all that tax money would be liberated back into people's pockets.
Furthermore, Pbirv, I would contest the claim that you "turned out ok" despite your public education, since you're such a big cheerleader for socialism. One could easily say that you've been indoctrinated as much as educated in the government run schools, wouldn't you say?
Show me in the Constitution where it says the government has the authority to educate us. Public schools don't spend very much quality time on the Constitution or the virtues of individualism and free market capitalism.
So you think everything should be privatised? Does that include highways, bridges, harbors, airports, parks, police, firefighters, the military(although it seems we may be doing that with Blackwater)?
Capitalism is OK, but it needs to be regulated, otherwise we end up with predatory robber barons.
We tried laissez-faire capitalism once. Charles Dickens was quite familiar with the result.
Not everything, just most things. Schools most definitely. Some things, unfortunately, are best left to government, because there is no superior alternative (although I'm always open to suggestions).
Such things are roads, police, firefighting, and the military. Parks? Those could all be private, as could harbors and airports.
Capitalism should only regulated so as to prevent monopolies and ensure competition. Beyond that, it should stay the hell out and let free people conduct commerce.
"If their kids are roaming the streets and not being raised properly, then the state should take the kids away and put them in foster homes."
The problem with that is, all too many parents are having to work 50-90+ hours a week between 2,3, even 4 or 5 jobs just to keep a roof over their families' heads and food on the table. As for taking the kids away, have you ever dealt with child services? Most foster care systems are extremely overburdened as it is.
No, I've never been a member of a union. I've taken the more enterprising path in life. Unions are a lazy man's way to get ahead. The whole mission of unions is to get workers more reward for less productivity, and to use threats or extortian to obtain their objectives.
So, you don't have to be a genius to see how unions create a culture of laziness and mediocrity by rewarding unproductive behavior.
Again, you wrote: "Unions are a lazy man's way to get ahead. The whole mission of unions is to get workers more reward for less productivity, and to use threats or extortian to obtain their objectives."
Ok, just to recap...youre an "entreprneur" and you think workers who want a better life are lazy people who have no ambition, and you feel that you shouldnt have to support our society with your tax contributions. YOU are whats wrong with America. How selfish can you be?
Everybody wants a better life. Big deal. What matters is how you go about getting your better life. Thieves steal to obtain their better life. Get the picture? If people want to earn more money, then they should make themselves more capable of producing wealth, like getting an education, learning a valulable skill, getting a better job, starting a business, etc.
The answer isn't to remain the same stupid lazy bum you always were, and extort more pay from a company or else you'll strike.
Taxes aren't contributions. Contributions are voluntary. Taxes are seized from us at the point of a gun. Big fucking difference. And yes, I don't feel that I have to support, or subsidize, the irresponsible behavior of our society.
My philosophy is that if you can't afford to raise a kid (which includes educating that kid!) then don't make a baby. I'm 40 and have managed to stay child-free, so I know it's not hard to do.
If you subsidize irresponsible behavior, you get more of it.
jbrentoniv, one last thing before I throw you on the union scrap heap, you said I'm what is wrong with America?
Well, let's see, I'm 40, college degreed, have no criminal record, never made any bastard kids, have never taken one dime of public money, have always been self sufficient, run my own business, don't do drugs, barely drink, and basically am an honest, responsible, PRODUCTIVE member of society.
But yeah, I'm the problem with America (if you want America to be a welfare state).
When I asked why they were long gone, I answered the question. I wasnt really asking, thank you. You just showed your ass by saying "union gravy train," "lousy work ethics" etc. You really know very little about this subject.
jbrentoniv, I've never been a member of a union, but I've known many who have. My best friend worked at Rouge Steel in Dearborn, MI for 13 years, and I heard all kinds of stories from him. People sleeping on the job for 3 hours, having their buddy punch them in on time them coming to work 2 hours late, then leave early and do the same thing, lazy unproductive workers who should be fired being protected by the union. I've heard it all.
And you dont think lazy people abuse their work in on union jobs? I have been a union steward for years and NEVER represented a person nor defended someone who abused their work ethics. So your stories are just that "stories" TRUST me first time your fired because some boss didnt like you or your kid got sick and they fired you for bringing him to the hospital you will RUN to join a union job
jbrentoniv, my stupid lazy slob of an uncle worked for General Motors for 35 years. One time he supposedly hurt his knee, so he got to take the entire summer off work at 92% pay, then he golfed and climbed in and out of boats all summer. Yeah, his knee must have been devastated.
My uncle was paid a lot of money for being nothing more than a stupid high-school graduate with a lousy work ethic. So yes, there was a union gravy train in America for decades, but the train has crashed. Boo hoo.
No, your Uncles gravy train ended. Your uncle was an abuser. How is that the Union's fault? If you think the Union defends people who ARE GUILTY of sleeping or drinking on the job you are wrong. Just so you know, you've been arguing with a Union Representative, not a shop steward, but a Business Rep. and I would never fight those things, and I dont know anybody that does. Get your facts straight. Your information is all heresay.
The problem there is that tuition at most colleges and trade schools is rising faster than inflation while financial aid is being cut and interest on student loans is being jacked up, while job opportunities for grads are being undercut by outsourcing and bringing in foreign guest workers willing to do those jobs for a fraction of what Americans can afford to live on, meaning that most college grads are pretty much guaranteed to be indentured servants for life.
It's time for college grads to stop thinking like employees and to start thinking like entrepreneurs. I've been self-employed for 15 years and love it. It's awesome not having a boss.
The flow of illegal aliens could be stopped tomorrow if the government wanted to do it, but they don't because big business (who donates heavily to both parties) loves the cheap labor, and neither party wants to offend the Hispanic vote.
College tuition will come down now that the credit gravy train is gone.
Many people can't get the funds to start a business, and not everyone has what it takes to succeed in business. Look at Bush. He ran no less than 3 oil companies into the ground that Poppa's buddies gave him to run. Scrubya couldn't even find oil IN TEXAS!!(Frankly I doubt he could find a hooker in a whorehouse!) It's a proven fact that over 90% of all new businesses fail within the first 5 years.
The world needs ditch-diggers too. Yes, most businesses fail, does that doesn't mean that you have to give up trying. I've failed in several small business ventures in my early years, but you learn from your mistakes, gain wisdom, and get back on the horse. The 3 words to remember are "never give up."
Not all businesses take a lot of money to start. I was a self employed real estate appraiser for 12 years. My office was in my house, and all I needed was a PC, printer, camera, & clipboard.
Yes, you can keep trying, but that doesn't mean you'll succeed at what you're trying. Not everyone is cut out to be a successful business owner anymore than everyone is cut out to be a brain surgeon or astrophysicist. It's a combo of factors, including but not limited to talent, skill, dedication, hard work, timing, and just pure luck. Some people have a gift for success in what they're trying, some don't.
Yep, some people are born losers, but it's not the role of government to give losers a free ride through life, no more than it's their role to give handouts to successful people.
Almost anyone can be self-employed if they wanted to be. Doesn't mean you'll get rich, but you can make a living. Look at Hong Kong. Small government, low taxes/regulations & TONS of entrepreneurs.
You can never get more than 100% of anything, because 100% is all there is.
There should be no taxes or regulations on business. No labor or environmental laws, no minimum wage, and unions outlawed and declared to be terrorist groups, hammered with both RICO and the Patriot Act, their members and supporters executed or sent to Gitmo. Once we repeal all labor and environmental laws, business taxes and regulations, and ban the unions, our economy will scream with growth.
Here's how to deal with the losers- draft their sorry worthless asses into the Army and stick them on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan, and if I had my way, Pakistan, Iran, Syria, and Libya. Require them to kill at least 1000 mudscum each tour of combat duty before they can come home. They'll either come back as men and winners, or die bravely for our country and our cause. Either way it's a win win situation for America.
Yeah, yeah, let's be just like COMMUNIST China. Let's have the economic equivalent of a "Mad Max" movie. Right? You'll just love breathing polluted air and drinking contaminated water. Hey, maybe the next fish you eat at dinner will have 3 eyes, just like the ones near Homer Simpson's nuke plant!
Pbirv, I don't believe it would get that bad if there were no environmental laws, because there would be so much public outcry towards flagrant polluters that their business would suffer, so I believe industry would regulate itself to a large degree.
However, I'm in favor of limited environmental laws, as I said to Darrel, because when one party pollutes, it affects another party's property and could lower its utility or value, so it's a property rights issue, as well as a health issue.
The last time we trusted industry to regulate itself, we had sweatshops, child labor, 12-18 hour workdays in horribly unsafe conditions with few/no safety measures, unsafe products(you might wanna read Upton Siclair's The Jungle sometime- there's PLENTY of similiarities to what China's doing now). Govt regulation of business may not be pretty, but it's better and safer overall than the alternative. Trusting industry to self regulate has proven to be like trusting the fox to guard the henhouse.
Pbirv, it's not as one sided as the capitalism-hating douchebags would have you believe. Were working conditions more harsh 100 years ago? Sure, but life in general was also more harsh.
Nobody put a gun to people's heads and forced them to take jobs, or to work long hours. As foolish as it may seem to us today, they CHOSE to do those things, because they obviously saw it as an opportunity to get ahead.
China is going through their "I wanna get ahead!" phase right now, 100 years after ours.
"Nobody put a gun to people's heads and forced them to take jobs, or to work long hours. As foolish as it may seem to us today, they CHOSE to do those things"
You'd be surprised what people will do when the alternative is starving. When the choice is between working under such harsh conditions or no job at all....
How do you know their only other alternative was starving to death? lol Why do socialists always try to paint a scenario where someone only has 2 choices in life, one particular job, or starvation? lol
What do you think the unemployment rate in America was 100 years ago? Pretty low I bet. Also, many people moved to the city from the country where they lived on farms, because the industrial revolution created millions of new non-agricultural jobs. Capitalism made this country great.
Unless a person had enough money to start their own business or could get some kind of education, their alternatives were working under such conditions, starving, or turning criminal. Yes, capitalism has good points, but it's far from perfect. Same with socialism. The answer IMO has to be somewhere in the middle where there's some measure of balance. Whenever one side becomes too powerful there's bound to be abuse- that's human nature.
The last time we had a mostly laissez-faire approach to business was in the 1920's, with a HUGE gap between rich and poor. I don't think I need to tell you what happened then. Such a wealth/income gap is not good for any country- socialism, communism, and fascism came as responses to such conditions, which we're coming dangerously close to now, certainly too close for my comfort. I fear what'll happen if that gap gets much wider.
BTW, I'm still in sales. If being concerned about the direction this country's taking and our being on our way to resembling Mexico or Brazil(with 2-5% rich, 5-10% middle class, and everyone else desperately poor) makes me sound like a "negative crybaby", so be it. I know history well enough to know what happens when enough people get pushed into poverty and ways out of their situation get yanked out before their eyes. Bob Marley said it best "a hungry man is an angry man".
If you wanna see what America's future would be without unions or labor laws, go to Thailand. Not only are 40 hour workweeks, overtime, and weekends and holidays off unheard of, but if you even have to take 1 hour off for any reason, you're required to financially reimburse your employer for every second you took off. You seem to think that capitalism and the free market can do no wrong and that I think that socialism and the government can do no wrong. Well you're wrong on both counts.
While the government and the free market both have their merits, they also both have features that suck ass. Thus what would be ideal and what we should strive for IMO is a system that incorporates the best elements of both capitalism and socialism(or at least as approximate as possible)- basically one keeps the other honest. Yin and Yang.
Pbirv, if a worker got paid for the day that he later decided to take off, then he/she SHOULD reimburse the employer for that day. How does it profit the employer to pay people to not work??
On the other hand, if part of the employment agreement is that workers get x number of paid days off, that's between them and that's fine, but the government has no place FORCING employers to give paid days off to workers.
Prices, wages, work hours, etc etc should be LAISSEZ-FAIRE! A free market is free.
"if a worker got paid for the day that he later decided to take off, then he/she SHOULD reimburse the employer for that day. How does it profit the employer to pay people to not work??" If the worker hasn't been paid yet for the day that they had to take 1 hour off, and the employer expects him to reimburse them for that hour, they could end up docking his pay for the whole day just for that 1 hour or require him to pay them hard cash for it.
Well, I don't know the details of the situations you're talking about, but in my mind, workers should only be paid for the time they work. If both parties agreed to rules where a worker must show up on certain days, or else there will be penalties levied against their paychecks, then as shitty as it is, they agreed to it.
I would not have, because shit happens in life, but you have to view it from the employers side too. Not showing up for work can cost them a lot of money in some cases.
"I believe the Federal Reserve conspiracy theory is true, and we can all look in the mirror and blame ourselves for allowing it to happen" Agreed.
Well, I don't know the details of the situations you're talking about, but in my mind, workers should only be paid for the time they work. If both parties agreed to rules where a worker must show up on certain days, or else there will be penalties levied against their paychecks, then as shitty as it is, they agreed to it."
"On the other hand, if part of the employment agreement is that workers get x number of paid days off, that's between them and that's fine, but the government has no place FORCING employers to give paid days off to workers." I'm not disagreeing there, but when a company mandates 12-18 hour workdays 6-7 days a week, with maybe HALF the day off on Sundays, then something should be done, even if the government doesn't step in.
Sure, something should be done. People should demand better conditions by refusing to work under those conditions. Amazing things can happen if nobody shows up to apply for a company's job openings, you know?
On the other hand, if people agree to those conditions and eagerly show up to apply for those jobs, then that's their freedom of choice at work, and it's nobody's business to interfere with voluntary agreements amongst free people.
"Sure, something should be done. People should demand better conditions by refusing to work under those conditions. Amazing things can happen if nobody shows up to apply for a company's job openings, you know?"
Agreed, but of course that's only effective when there aren't illegals or other scabs willing to accept such conditions.
"Sure, something should be done. People should demand better conditions by refusing to work under those conditions. Amazing things can happen if nobody shows up to apply for a company's job openings, you know?"
Actually that's basically how organized labor got started.
I know, that's how unions were born, but they've gone way overboard, and weren't even necessary in the first place in my opinion. People just needed to stand up as individuals, and seek out jobs that suited them. To many people are too lazy to go out and look.
Some people may not know any better, because the conditions they lived in before that job came along were even worse. Things we take for granted here would be unbelievable luxuries in other countries.
"that's how unions were born, but they've gone way overboard" Unions definitely need a thorough overhaul. They have their problems like all big organizations, but to get rid of them because of those problems? I don't hear too many people saying we should get rid of lawyers because of a few shysters, or get rid of the police because a few cops abuse their authority, or the Catholic Church because a few priests can't keep their hands off small boys.
"People just needed to stand up as individuals, and seek out jobs that suited them."
That's kinda hard to do when pretty much every employer was doing basically the same thing. Simply standing up as an individual quite often has gotten one fired and all too often blacklisted, making them unable to find work anywhere, or at least making it quite difficult. There's strength in numbers.
Or getting rid of Metallica because of that "Some KInd Of Monster" known as "St Anger". I saw your avatar for "And Justice For All"- their last great album IMO.
Apples and oranges. Lawyers and cops serve a vital need, unions don't. In fact, unions do nothing but harm the economy, and ultimately, harm the workers that they're supposed to be helping.
There hasn't been a need for unions since labor laws were created, and it's debatable if they were even needed before that.
Unions are nothing more than professional extortion rackets that shake down companies and force them with strike threats to pay workers MORE than the true market value of their jobs.
We might not have those labor laws if it wasn't for the unions, who fought for those laws and made sure that companies followed them. If unions were to disappear, how long do you think it'd be before corprorate lobbyists and their right wing buddies in Congress started working to get those laws stripped away if not eventually repealed, or at the very least neutered or watered down so much that they don't matter?
For example, Bush's appointments to the Labor Board reclassified hourly workers as "managers" so that companies could duck out of paying their employees overtime. The result was that those employees found themselves working 60+ hours a week but only getting paid for 40. As to the unions being a racket, the Labor Board has recorded 40,000 reports of abuses by management but only a whopping 20 by unions.
I have a friend in W VA, who lives in coal mining country. The mines used to be UMWA with good pay and benefits, who made sure the mining companies followed the labor laws. Under Reagan, the mines closed and reopened under a stipulation- no union, no grievances, no overtime, and half pay with no benefits or protections. Safety measures fell by the wayside. Nobody in their right mind will go underground to work in such hazardous conditions for what the CO's paying now, so they bring in illegals.
The Co puts them up 30-50 to a house, with some of them sleeping on the porch, allows them little if any interaction with the locals, and with safety protections largely gone, one of the mines had a cave-in a couple years ago with only 1 survivor, who was trapped underground with the miners who died for several days. You may have read about it or seen it on the news. Those miners might still be alive if the mines were still union.
If you actually READ history ( a novel concept) you would see individuals tried for year after year to stop child labor, 60 hour work weeks, unsafe working conditions where people were killed etc. And NOTHING got done..because only UNITED can a people change thing with a big business. Standing up as an individual against the largest corps in the world dont stand a chance. United we bargain divided we beg. READ!
FPiccioli, unions don't bargain, they extort. And, what's wrong with people CHOOSING to work 60 hours a week? Nobody forced anyone to work over 40 hours a week, but many people wanted to (and want to today), to get ahead.
Children working? Again, nobody put a gun to their heads and forced them to work. And, where are the parents?
Also, 100 years ago, a 15yo quitting school and working full time was common, even the norm, unlike today.
You need to do me a favor and actualy go to school or read a book about labor history. YES,...people were froced to work 50-60 hour weeks...this was the norm before the standard 40 hour week. And YES the children were forced...by their parents and by society. What a sicko you most be to say that child labor is an okay thing if parents are okay with it. You had 10 year olds in factories all day in unsafe conditions not going to school and working 12 hour days. Go to CHINA, youll fit it
"On the other hand, if people agree to those conditions and eagerly show up to apply for those jobs, then that's their freedom of choice at work, and it's nobody's business to interfere with voluntary agreements amongst free people. "
Possibly, but I can't think of too many people who'd willingly, voluntarily agree to such conditions, unless they don't know any better.
Pbirv (part 2) the depression in the '30s was caused by too much government meddling, not a lack of it.
The Federal Reserve printed too much money in the early/mid '20s, which created the boom bubble, then drastically reduced printing in the late 20's, which caused the collapse.
Many believe this was their (evil international bankers running the whole show behind the scenes) intention.
I'd rather be a "poor" person in American than a middle-class or even rich person in most other countries.
"Pbirv (part 2) the depression in the '30s was caused by too much government meddling, not a lack of it.
The Federal Reserve printed too much money in the early/mid '20s, which created the boom bubble, then drastically reduced printing in the late 20's, which caused the collapse." The Fed is a private bank. It's no more Federal than Federal Express.
"Many believe this was their (evil international bankers running the whole show behind the scenes) intention." Quite probably true.
I believe the Federal Reserve conspiracy theory is true, and we can all look in the mirror and blame ourselves for allowing it to happen.
By the way, the international bankers LOVE big government socialism, because governments usually borrow vast sums of money to fund the entitlement programs, and guess who reaps all the interest?
Pbirv (part 3) what's wrong with a huge gap in wealth?? In good economic times, the wealth of all classes increases. Just because the poor have 30% more wealth, and the rich have 500% more wealth, so fucking what?? The socialist philosophy stems from one thing, ENVY.
YOU WOULD RATHER HAVE THE POOR BE POORER, PROVIDING THE RICH WERE LESS RICH.
So, what do you sell? You can't be doing very well, given the attitudes you have (and the amount of time you WASTE here on YouTube).
Pbirv, bullshit. If you want to start a business but can't right now, then you work, save, get educated, and do it when you're able. Simple. You don't turn to crime.
If people, by and large, refuse to work in certain conditions, then employers improve them to attract workers. It's simple supply & demand.
People obviously agreed with the working conditions back then, because there was, is, and always will be ALTERNATIVES in the job market. Nobody is forced to work one particular job.
"then employers improve them to attract workers" Or they bring in people willing to accept them. Why do you think illegals are so attractive to all too many employers.
"Pbirv (part 3) what's wrong with a huge gap in wealth??" Look what that's done to Mexico. That's largely why so many people there get into the drug trade and why so many Mexicans cross over into here illegally.
Pbirv, the wealth gap in a country like Mexico isn't comparable to the gap in a country like the USA. Mexico's govt. are a handful of crooks who basically steal everything for themselves, and everyone else has little or no free market in which to create their own wealth. Much different than here, where the poor have every opportunity to create wealth.
I agree with you about the illegals flooding in. Stop the flow, employ only Americans, and wages and conditions will go up.
"Mexico's govt. are a handful of crooks who basically steal everything for themselves, and everyone else has little or no free market in which to create their own wealth." At the rate we're going, we may be headed in the same direction. Certainly both parties are run by crooks.
"Much different than here, where the poor have every opportunity to create wealth."
For now yes, but if the way things are going continues....
You bring up a great question..100 years ago, there were 9 year old working in filthy factories 12 hours a day. Woman were barred from employment in many areas, Business didnt give medical insurence, if you got hurt or permently disabled at work you got fired. Little or no safety regulations and thousands of workers killed at work in factories and mines. No paid sick leave. No vacation time. You,,,Deefrom Zeeland..and others are ignorant of history
Pbirv, so anyway, you were in sales? I can see why you're not in that field anymore, given your piss-poor, socialist attitude.
I've also worked in commission sales, and did well, so I know what it takes to succeed in that profession. A strong work ethic, and a self-reliant, positive attitude are what you must have.
This negative, cry-baby, "feed me Uncle Sam" baby bird with your mouth open attitude that you seem to have would ensure your failure in sales (or any profession really).
These people didnt CHOOSE it...it was the norm and would be today if unions didnt stop it. It was either do it or starve,..just as stark a decision to make as if someone had a gun to your head. And your right China is doing it now...and exploiting workers like we did. And its just as morally wrong
Darrel, I agree with everything on that list except the environmental law part. I'm not a tree-hugging hippy faggot or anything, but I feel the govt. should play a limited but important role in outlawing pollution, because when one party pollutes the environment, it affects another party's property, so it's a property rights issue.
And "mudscum"? Come on dude, I'm full of white pride too, but many good Americans are brown, and using words like that isn't fair to them.
I agree that people shouldn't get a free ride thru life unless they're disabled, but the government should give a hand up(not handout) to those who need it and are willing to work.
Yes, almost anyone can be self employed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll make enough $ to live on. There are small business owners who qualify for food stamps because their businesses don't turn enough profit.
Pbirv, hand-up, hand-out, you say potato, I say po-tot-o. Hand-up and hand-out are the same thing. The only people who should get hand-outs are the disabled, the insane, orphaned children, and the elderly. Everyone else is on their own, as far as the government is concerned.
If someone tries and tries but can't succeed in running their own business, then they should be allowed to fail, and then go work for someone else. Entrepreneurship isn't for everyone.
I'll tell you what it is douchebag. It's getting an education, a REAL, hands on education learning a profitable, in demand skilled trade, NOT a useless lib arts education. It's NOT using drugs or alcohol or having kids as a teen or kids you can't afford. Anyone with enough moxie, hustle, ruthlessness, and just plain GO GO GO can still make it in this economy as long as you look out only for yourself and fuck everyone else.
He wants to be in bed with labour, but not pay taxes.
oswalddeath 6 months ago
The Democrats sold working class people out. Along withy help from gingrich.
mizzoulibertarian 1 year ago 2
"Prices, wages, work hours, etc etc should be LAISSEZ-FAIRE! A free market is free." Going by that, an employer could say "we have a job for you. It's 80 hours a week mandatory, 3 cents a day, no overtime, no benefits. If that's not good enough, there's 100+ other people willing to take that job". And it doesn't really do much good to go anywhere else when everyone else is doing the same thing. TO BE CONTINUED....
Pbirv 2 years ago
CONTINUED....
And if the employer is paying workers in say, company script( a common practice before unions or labor laws, which was only good for rent on usually overpriced company housing or usually overpriced goods at the company store), then there's really no way to pay tuition to study for a better job.
Pbirv 2 years ago
We need to clean house on BOTH sides of the aisle. Toss out all career politicians, regardless of party or ideology.
Pbirv 2 years ago
True, and we need to FORCE politicians to not only swear to uphold the Constitution, but to actually do it.
I've only voted Libertarian since 1996, and will NEVER give my vote to a socialist Republicrat ever again. If you believe in limited government, personal responsibility, liberty, and capitalism, then the Libertarian Party and the Constitution Party are the only choices out there.
If you like socialism, then vote for either major party.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Libertarian and Constitution parties? You're just throwing away your vote. It's the Republican Party that has kept America strong and relevant. Of course Buttfuck Osama and the Dumbasscraps will surrender us to the mudscum and force us to convert to their satanic 5th century moon god death cult.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
Darrel, your boy Bush fucked us royally. He added a couple trillion to our national debt, blew the surplus Clinton left us, attacked a country that hadn't attacked us, alienated the rest of the CIVILIZED world, including our allies, left our borders pretty much unguarded- terrorists could just walk in. And still no sign of Osama.
The Dems will force us to convert to Islam? Wow, whoever would've thought that "atheist libs" were actually Islamic fundies! Or is it the other way around?
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, both parties are a disgrace when it comes to the border and illegal immigration. Neither lift a finger to stop the flow of illegals coming in because big business (who give tons of money to both parties) loves the cheap labor, and both parties are afraid they'll offend the hispanic vote.
In short, both parties are full of self-serving whores who put their political careers above the best interests of their country.
Anyone that gives their vote to a Republicrat is a fucking moron.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
If it was up to be, all unions would be outlawed, declared to be terrorist groups, then hammered with both RICO and the Patriot Act. Their assets and property would be seized, their members and supporters would be executed or sent to Gitmo to do butt pyramids with their mudscum butt buddies.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
You said that a few hundred times already.
Idude893 2 years ago
Darrel sure sounds like a broken record, doesn't he?
Pbirv 2 years ago
You would do better moving to a third world dictatorship than being in America
FPiccioli 2 years ago 2
Wal Mart saves money by sending all of your groceries with chemicals together lose on a truck on the General Merchandise side only the groceries that come on that truck are marked down. They also stack heavy freight on top of the PS3 or computer you bought. Wal Mart is evil they only save you cents. I would rather spent an extra 2.00 on my shopping trip than give Wal Mart that extra 2.00. I worked for the corrupt giant and use your common "cents" and spend 2 cents extra for that dvd player.
rebmayab 3 years ago
I wish Edwards would've won the Democratic nomination.
FatBird11 3 years ago 3
and as for quality of life my union supplies me with health care benefits, travel time, work injury benefits etc, what does your world give anybody?
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, unions are the world's biggest extortian rackets. They shake down companies for free money by threatening them to either cough up or else they'll fuck up their operation by striking.
Unions have fucked themselves though. After decades of demanding more and more money and benefits for less and less work, many companies have finally said fuck you, and moved their factories to Mexico or China. I don't blame them one bit.
Unions are a lazy man's way to get ahead.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
you want north america to be like china? you have no idea what your saying your in some kind of a dream world where you picture yourself on top and everybody works for you. you look at any country that has no unions, theres a name for them oh yeah 3rd world countries so wake up.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, long ago, there was a need for unions in America. However, we no longer need them. There are plenty of fair labor laws that protect workers from evil employers. Unions have evolved into extortion rackets that suck the blood out of companies, and protect useless workers who should be fired. 3rd world countries are getting our jobs BECAUSE OF UNIONS.
I've heard many stories from union workers. Sleeping on the job for hours, slacking off, going home early, etc etc.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
it was the unions that instigated these labour laws you think the companies did that? ive been a member of iuoe for 18 years and i work my ass off in extreme weather conditions -45 most of this winter in northern canada. i earned every penny and benefits i got. my dad who was a member same union for over 50 years gets $2500 month in [union pensions] plus he gets reinbersed for road trips to the doctor motels etc.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, I'm not saying that many blue collar jobs aren't hard. My best friend's job was physically grueling and dangerous too. What I'm saying is that if there are scores of people willing to take those jobs for $10/hour, why should a company be forced to pay its workers $20/hour? The market should dictate what a job is worth, not a union or government.
Just because unions did some good in the past doesn't mean they are good today.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
because you have to fight for what you get , bottom line you think these corporations are going to be fair to everyone? they never have been unless the workers stood together and fought for whats right.
moist182 3 years ago
You're missing the fact that unions are a part of the market. A thousand individual workers by themselves are easy to exploit and intimidate, as history and the present display. The mere presence of strong unions in similar industries is a powerful bargaining tool for workers and acts to counterbalance the enormous wealth and capital wielded by large corporations. Repeat: unions are the workers acting in their own self-interest, like any corporation would.
baseballnolie34 3 years ago
baseballnolie34, I understand what a union is, but in the USA, union workers have gone too far and essentially priced themselves out of the marketplace. Companies would rather pay an eager Chinese or Mexican worker $1/hour to put a screw in a hole instead of paying an American union worker $22/hour to do the same job. Like you said, the corporations are simply acting in their own self-interest, just as unions do.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
right on!!! thats what i was trying to say it should be like europe where theres 3 parties sitting at the table the company the contractor and the union, that way theres no blaim on anybody about who is ripping off who. its all on paper.
moist182 3 years ago
God, Bryan you really are naive. You wrote "There are plenty of fair labor laws that protect workers from evil employers..." See, that just goes to show that you know information, but you have no idea how things work. Do you think those laws enforce themselves? Do you think they are easy to enforce? To enforce these laws requires...lawyers! Courts! Time! Money! Hellloooooo! Not only that, there are third world countries that have more comprehensive labor laws than ours. Get a clue.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago 3
Plus, if unions disappeared, how long do you think it'd be before corporate lobbyists and their right wing buddies started working to roll back the labor laws if not outright repeal them?
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, I got news for you, unions are disappearing. The vast majority of American workers aren't unionized. Unions are largely what destroyed the American automotive industry, thanks to their inflated wages they've been extorting out of the Big 3 for decades. I'm a lifelong Detroit area native, and I'm very much in touch with the industry.
But getting to your point, government/corporate collusion is a big problem, I agree. That, along with big government socialism, MUST END.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"Unions are largely what destroyed the American automotive industry"
And crappy gas guzzling car designs and inept management, who still get rewarded for their fuckups with golkden parachute packages worth millions, had nothing to do with it?
I agree that unions, like all large organizations, have their problems and are long overdue for an overhaul, but overall do more good than harm. At the very least they give the worker a measure of balance against overly greedy and abusive employers.
Pbirv 2 years ago
moist182, one more thing, unions don't provide you with jack shit. The company you work for, and the wealth it creates by providing a product or service to society, is the source of your wages and benefits. All unions do is suck the blood out of companies and give them nothing but lazy malcontent workers in return.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
moist182, a free-market world with limited government, or "my world" as you call it, gives everyone the environment to pursue wealth in the manner they choose, and doesn't rob half of the fruits of their labor through taxation.
In the world of unions and big government socialism, or your world, people are rewarded for being lazy, unproductive, and irresponsible, at the expense of productive, hard-working people.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
you think im lazy? i probly work harder and sacrifice more than you do. and yeah the union supplies me with all that i said it does you think i made it up, if it wasnt for the union i wouldnt get half of what i get.the companies sure wouldnt give it to out of the goodness of their own hearts. read the history books " the company store" is good one. all about the coal mines, workers charged goceries at stores owned by companies they worked for knowing they will always be in debt to them.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, that's just my point, perhaps you don't deserve half of what you get because of the union extortian racket. I don't know what your story is, but since when does an uneducated blue collar slacker deserve an upper middle class income, 3 cars, and a big house on the hill??
My stupid lazy slob of an uncle is a prime example. He rode the UAW gravy train for 30 years, got paid far more than his dumb ass was worth, and thought his shit didn't stink. No wonder cars cost so much.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
we had one fatality and a couple non fatal accidents this year ,the old timers remember a time when someone died all they did was wrap the body in a tarp and take them back after the shift was over, today because of the labour laws the union fought for we had a work stoppage to find out exactly what happened and fix the problem.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, so your company has little sympathy for its workers who get injured or killed? Sad, but how much sympathy does your union have for the company when it hits hard economic times? Eh? Do you give a rat's ass if their profits are down, if they have to lower or eliminate dividends to stockholders, or if they have to lay off white collar workers? Of course you don't. You only care about your paycheck. The apathy goes both ways.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
it wasnt just one company it was the way things were accepted throughout the workforce management to be exact. hard economic times allways hit the workforce before any company suffered layoffs etc,as for white collar workers they seem to take care of themselves just like a union good for them.
moist182 3 years ago
i am proud to be a 3rd generation member of a union, i work hard and carry the respect for the trade my forefathers gave. theres pride in what you do. and i will carry that feeling all my career they are the ones i look for guidance and respect no one else.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, you should also have deep respect for the entrepreneurs who took a chance, put their life savings at stake, and started the company that you now work at. Without the so-called evil greedy businessmen, there would be no companies and no jobs for society.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
if it wasnt for unions it wouldnt be worth working for them either. everybody has to look out for themselves im on the other side of the fence than you consider yourself.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, like I said, only the market should dictate what a job is worth. If a person isn't satisfied with his job's pay, then he should work at getting qualified for a higher paying job.
Who's better off at age 45, someone who bettered himself since a young age and worked his way up the ladder, or someone who relied on his union to extort him more pay than his job is worth, only to be unemployed and unskilled when his factory finally moves to Mexico? Unions doom people in the long run.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
if you let a company dictate what a job is worth you know what will happen the rich get richer and the will get poorer its in the history books, working class always gets shafted while ceo"s gave themselves raises etc the working class suffered more than anybody. what you call extortion i call fighting for your rights. did you check deffered taxes yet? corporations are still ripping off the tax payer owned by the richest people in the world.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, the marketplace dictates what a job is worth, NOT the employer. Employers only pay people what they must to fill the positions. Workers, in effect, sell their labor in the marketplace. The market sets their hourly value, just as it sets the value of the widgets they produce.
Rights? Nobody has a right to a wage. Wages are something people must earn. Taxes? That's a whole other debate, but I'm against income taxes in general, for individuals or companies.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
obviously the companies are against income tax too but i still have to pay mine. as for what a job is worth unions usually set the standards that even affects the nonunion wages in the same trades it keeps them up.... live better work union.
moist182 3 years ago
actually im better off with the union i get a pension plan when i retire, health care, dental, and good wages. if i kissed ass to climb a ladder i wouldnt have any of that only a conscious that bothered me.
moist182 3 years ago
moist182, there's other ways to work your way up the ladder besides kissing ass and getting promotions within a company. Ever heard of starting your own business? What a concept, eh? I've been self-employed for most of my adult life.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
maybe i dont want to start my own business i work in the oilfields in the north, you want me to compete with exxon and mobil? sure but i need a partner lets go.
moist182 3 years ago
So whats the answer? China is only going to produce cheaper and cheaper goods until nobody can possibly compete and must go out of business...then what? Are you saying that workers in the US should make as much as a Chinese Factory worker so that we can "compete?" Wouldnt that be moving back instead of moving forward? Unless you own your own magin business, Wouldnt your business be affected too? Dont you think this foreign competition is the problem?? You need to see the big picture.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago 3
jbrentoniv, first of all, what is a "magin business?" Second, the answer certainly isn't forcing people to keep buying the higher priced goods or services. A free market means you can take your business where you like, whether you're an individual or a company.
If the Chinese or Mexicans are willing to do the grunt work for us and make widgets for pennies on the dollar, you would be a fool to keep buying them here for sky high prices.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
Yeah, that was supposed to read "magic business." Not sure what happened there. Anywho, the point Im trying to make is that we are so socially conditioned to believe that these workers are "pricing themselves out of a job." We have a high standard of living in America, and that is steadily crumbling. How can the other countries produce for such low prices? Is it that they have a unpampered workforce, or do the workers live in poverty and will take whatever little money they can get?
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
jbrentoniv, who cares how they can work so cheaply? The point is that they WILL work that cheaply, and to a business looking to buy someone's labor, that's all that matters.
One of the reasons for our declining living standard is the ever-increasing TAX BURDEN that we're saddled with. The government is irresponsible, spends our money like drunken sailors, causes massive debt and all sorts of problems, then wants more of our money to create new agencies to fix the problems that they created.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
Hey, I never said that I didnt get it. I do, if I had a business I would do the same thing. My point is that its gone too far. The Unions are not the remedy for this problem. We know that a Union cant help you if the plant closes shop. Maybe Im getting at something a little more extreme than Unionism, and it has to do with restructuring and repositioning ourselves in the global market, and a heavy dose of Nationalism. I have kids, I dont want to see their future sold for profits.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago 2
If you get it then what are you arguing about? Gone too far? Unions are the CAUSE of this problem. If they didn't suck the companies dry for decade after decade, demanding more and more pay and benefits for less and less work, and produce lazy disgruntled workers with lousy work ethics, then American companies might not have been so eager to close up shop and move their factories overseas. But they did, and I don't blame them one bit.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
jbrentoniv(part 2): The American workers that lose their jobs? Sad, but that's life in a free market. If you price yourself out of the market, as American unions have done, then companies will go elsewhere for labor, just as you'll shop around for the best deal on a TV, house, tank of gas, etc.
America has to evolve, because the days of easy to find, lucrative, lifetime blue collar job are long gone. Maybe now more people should think about college, trade school, or creating their own job.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
Why are they long gone? "Pricing yourself out of a market," I think the more accurate way to say that is that they are being undercut and sold out. Do you think that this is not going to affect you? I can be the fair intellectual and say its just the price of capitalism...but we are talking about dissolving the middle class. Im not a communist, but there is something wrong with that. America does have to evolve, but I think what youre supporting is regression and economic slavery.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
jbrentoniv, they are long gone because foreign workers are willing to do those jobs for pennies on the dollar, that's why. Hellooo.
Why does the middle class have to only consist of unionized factory workers? I'm middle class, but I went to college and now run my own vending business. My dad is middle class and he's an Architect, my brother is middle class and works at a car auction.
It's time for people to stop counting on the union gravy train and make their own opportunies instead.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
I think we have a pretty big disconnect here. You arent listening. The middle class does not primarily consist of Unionized workers. That wasnt my point, and I never said that. The fact is that there are unsympathetic people like yourself who are watching the sky fall all around them, but think somehow they will be safe on their island of self employment. Im starting to think your just a very naive person. Im wasting your time and mine.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
jbrentoniv, nobody is safe in this world. There are no guarantees in life, not from unions, from governments, or from self employment. The sky is falling for many reasons, but mostly because of our out of control government who has put us trillions of dollars in debt.
What exactly is your point? So far you haven't made any. All you've done is hint that we need to outlaw companies from outsourcing. If we do that, we no longer have a free market system.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
I've made quite a few points. My ultimate point is that there are so many reasons why the working man is in danger, yet the media is telling the people that the schools are underfunded and your kids cant get a good education because of the teachers Union. You yourself use the buzz words "Union Gravy Train" which is very common. Its sounds to me like youve never been in a Union, and you have a friend who had a bad experiance...that hardly makes you an authority.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
The govt. has a poor track record in doing anything well. The free market can nearly always do things more efficiently. You want to see the education system improve in America? PRIVATIZE IT.
Also, how is it fair and just that a single man with no kids (like myself) is forced to pay the same property taxes as my next door neighbor who has 5 fucking kids in the school system?! Don't give me the tired BS argument for socialism, how is improves society, helps me in the long run, blah blah.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
If I have any BS rebuttles for you, its because youve got a lot of tired complaints: why do I have to pay taxes if I dont have children, I never call the police, I dont go to public parks, I dont plan to take social security...on and on and on. If you dont want to be American then get out. If you dont want to contribute then dont call yourself an American.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
I said why should I pay THE SAME amount in property taxes as someone with 5 kids. I have no problem paying a tax if I get something in return, but a large portion of a property tax bill goes toward funding the public school system. (Have you ever owned property?)
If I have zero kids, then I get nothing for my money, understand? It's not my responsibility to raise other peoples' kids, and educating a kid is part of raising a kid.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
I do own property, and I have two kids. Before I had kids and had my own plumbing business I paid $600 a WEEK in taxes when I lived in California , and I didnt see any benefits from it, or so I thought. Its a part of life. In reality, it is our job to raise other people's kids. Its called society. We all pay into the pot and when its our turn we collect, or at least thats the idea. But I get it, you are a self sufficient rock. ok.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
It's my job to raise kids that aren't mine? Oh really? I thought that's what PARENTS are supposed to do. What ever happened to their responsibility??
If it's my responsibility to pay for the education of all children, then why stop there? Let's force everyone to pay for food, clothing, daycare, Flintstone vitamins, shoes, etc. Kids need many things to turn out right, so where does it end? You can take that same flawed justification for public schools and apply it to anything.
BRYAN351 3 years ago 4
If you don't pay for the kids one way, you'll end up paying another. You can pay for their education, food clothing, housing, now, or you can pay for their incarceration when they get into adulthood. Courtrooms and jail cells cost way more than schooling.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, what part of "RAISING YOUR KIDS IS NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY" don't you understand? Education is only one of many factors that lead to a kid turning out right.
Adequate attention, proper nutrition, proper socialization, etc. all play a role. If you can rationalize why I should pay for your kid's education, then why not add all the other things on the list? Daycare, Flintstone vitamins....where does it fucking end?!
PARENTS MUST RAISE THEIR KIDS. Can't afford to? Then DON'T HAVE KIDS!!!
BRYAN351 2 years ago
I agree that too many people are having kids who aren't prepared for them or who can't afford them, but should the kids be made to pay for their parents' fuckups? No they shouldn't. If we privatize education, there's gonna be a lot of kids whose parents can't afford or won't pay the tuition for the private schools. What do we do with those kids? Would you rather have them roaming the streets? I'd rather see them in school, even if that means paying taxes for it.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, if you subsidize irresponsible behavior, you get more of it. So, public schools aren't the answer. If all schools were privatized, property taxes (and rents) would go down, giving parents more money to pay for tuition. Besides, public schools have become worthless.
If their kids are roaming the streets and not being raised properly, then the state should take the kids away and put them in foster homes. That would make many parents shape up fast, don't you think?
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Private schools can refuse kids whose parents aren't of the right religion or belong to the right church, or who don't live in the "right" neighborhood, or whose parents are single or divorced, or who live with aunts/uncles, or whose parents are a mixed race/religion couple or a gay/lesbian couple, or who have a learning disability- most private schools aren't equipped or staffed to deal with learning disabled kids. Federal law only bans discrimination based on gender, race, or national origin.
Pbirv 2 years ago
The good thing about public schools is that everyone has an opportunity to be educated, regardless of religion, sexual orientation, handicap, background, etc.
I went to public schools from kindergarden thru college and I turned out OK.
NOTE ABOUT ABOVE COMMENT- That's "Private schools can refuse kids whose parents aren't of the "right" religion or don't belong to the "right" church".
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, yes, but you're an old fart, like me. Public schools (and parenting skills) were much better back in the day.
You're talking about religious private schools. Again, so what? There are also non-religious private schools. Like I said, there's something for everyone in the free market.
You need to drop this notion that government must be our parents, nannies, and teachers. Those are tasks that free, responsible people must perform in their lives. Nothing given by the govt. is "free."
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Pbirv, so what? There's a private school for everyone, and if all schools were privatized, there would be even more. Schools are a business like any other business. They sell a service, and you don't make a profit by refusing customers.
Everyone would be able to find a school just as easily as they could find a dry cleaner. Give me a break. And, if there is a market for disabled kids education, that demand will be met, like any other demand in the marketplace.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"There's a private school for everyone"- Maybe, but if all schools are privatized, kids of minority religious beliefs may well have to travel an hour or more to get to the nearest school for their belief, or if the nearest such school is too far to commute, their parents may have to move to a city that has such a school, assuming of course they could find a job in that city.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, maybe, maybe not. Life if full of uncertainties. But, one thing I would bet on is that the education would be worth the travel compared to the likely shitty education he would receive down the block at the government school.
And again, if enough people live in an area who demand a certain kind of school, that demand will get met in a free market. If their demand is unique, then they'll have to move where that unique school is. Life goes on.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
In addition, privatizing the schools may well in many parts of the country create an effect not too unlike the racially segregated schools in the South before the 1950's-60's, only this time segregation along religious lines. I'm sure you're aware of how the racially segregated school system turned out to be- such a system hardly fosters good relations between different groups of people.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, are we talking about schools, or churches?? Call me crazy, but aren't schools places where you learn the 3 R's, and aren't churches/places of worship places where you pray and worship? What has caused the 2 places to merge in the past 10 years?? Bloody fucking hell.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Most private schools, certainly where I live, are run by some church or religious group. If the schools are privatized, the ones that aren't religious would be flooded with applicants, in many cases more than the school could handle, with the result that many students would get turned away or put on a waiting list. What happens to them?
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, you really can't think 10 steps ahead, can you? If demand exceeds supply, then the supply will be increased.
The same thing would happen if demand for Ford cars increased by 8000% overnight. Ford would hire more workers and build more factories to meet the increased demand.
It's economics 101. Get a clue.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Eventually the supply would be increased, but building those new schools or enlarging the existing ones would take time. What do the kids on the waiting lists do in the meantime?
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, you really want to find an excuse for socialism, don't ya? The lag time won't be a problem if all the government schools were simply sold to private companies. The same buildings would be used, they would just be privately owned.
Of course, many would need renovating, thanks to the inefficiency and wastefulness of government.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Furthermore, it wouldn't take private developers much time at all to build new schools. They could have shiny new schools up and running in under a year (barring any zoning/government hassles, or course).
Profit motive can accomplish wonders.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"They could have shiny new schools up and running in under a year (barring any zoning/government hassles, or course)."
Yes they could, but since private companies are operating strictly for profit, they may likely cut corners on construction- unscrupulous contractors, shoddy materials, workers who aren't properly qualified if not actually illegal immigrants, with the result that the buildings may well end up being unsafe- the walls may collapse, it may be a fire hazard.. etc..
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, haven't you ever heard of building codes? Those apply to any new building being constructed, including schools. Nothing would change in that area.
Besides the building codes, don't you think it would hurt an education companies business if word got out that their building was unsafe? A safe building is in the company's best interest.
Would you shop at a store if the ceiling kept caving in on the customers?
BRYAN351 2 years ago
There are building codes, but you'd be surprised how many contractors seek ways to skirt them so they can pocket the diufference. I lived in AZ for 4 years, and at least 1-2 contractors that I know of there were charged with some kind of violation of those laws, in addition to hiring illegals.
If a school is found to be unsafe, education companies can usually find some way to shift the blame, putting investigators on a big runaround.
Pbirv 2 years ago
So, you're saying that dishonest behavior is only found in capitalist systems? lol Dishonesty is a human trait that will always be around, and punishing dishonest/fraudulent behavior IS one of government's legitimate roles.
Private education companies can shift the blame where ever they want, but if the building is unsafe, people won't send their kids there. So, profit is a strong incentive for making sure their building gets built properly.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
No, I didn't say that. Any system you have will have some dishonest people in it. Lack of government oversight however makes it a lot easier for those people to get away with, as we've seen with the banks.
Pbirv 2 years ago
The banking collapse was more a result of the government printing vast amounts of worthless paper dollars which inflates the currency, and by putting pressure on banks via legislation to give loans to people who couldn't afford to repay them. This caused housing values to inflate due to all the easy credit out there, until the bubble burst.
Remember how politicians loved to say that "homeownership has increased during our administration"? You sure don't hear them saying that now, do ya?
BRYAN351 2 years ago
BOTH parties deserve their share of the blame. We can't ignore the role that deregulation, including the repeal of Glass-Stegall had in this fiasco. We need a strong 3rd and 4th, maybe even 5th party in the worst way imaginable.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, to be clear, most private schools are religious schools, because they are a niche market. Most people use the government schools because they can't afford to pay tuition twice (once in property taxes, then again directly to the private school).
Take away the government education monopoly racket and all that tax money would be liberated back into people's pockets.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Furthermore, Pbirv, I would contest the claim that you "turned out ok" despite your public education, since you're such a big cheerleader for socialism. One could easily say that you've been indoctrinated as much as educated in the government run schools, wouldn't you say?
Show me in the Constitution where it says the government has the authority to educate us. Public schools don't spend very much quality time on the Constitution or the virtues of individualism and free market capitalism.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
So you think everything should be privatised? Does that include highways, bridges, harbors, airports, parks, police, firefighters, the military(although it seems we may be doing that with Blackwater)?
Capitalism is OK, but it needs to be regulated, otherwise we end up with predatory robber barons.
We tried laissez-faire capitalism once. Charles Dickens was quite familiar with the result.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Not everything, just most things. Schools most definitely. Some things, unfortunately, are best left to government, because there is no superior alternative (although I'm always open to suggestions).
Such things are roads, police, firefighting, and the military. Parks? Those could all be private, as could harbors and airports.
Capitalism should only regulated so as to prevent monopolies and ensure competition. Beyond that, it should stay the hell out and let free people conduct commerce.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"If their kids are roaming the streets and not being raised properly, then the state should take the kids away and put them in foster homes."
The problem with that is, all too many parents are having to work 50-90+ hours a week between 2,3, even 4 or 5 jobs just to keep a roof over their families' heads and food on the table. As for taking the kids away, have you ever dealt with child services? Most foster care systems are extremely overburdened as it is.
Pbirv 2 years ago
No, I've never been a member of a union. I've taken the more enterprising path in life. Unions are a lazy man's way to get ahead. The whole mission of unions is to get workers more reward for less productivity, and to use threats or extortian to obtain their objectives.
So, you don't have to be a genius to see how unions create a culture of laziness and mediocrity by rewarding unproductive behavior.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
Again, you wrote: "Unions are a lazy man's way to get ahead. The whole mission of unions is to get workers more reward for less productivity, and to use threats or extortian to obtain their objectives."
Ok, just to recap...youre an "entreprneur" and you think workers who want a better life are lazy people who have no ambition, and you feel that you shouldnt have to support our society with your tax contributions. YOU are whats wrong with America. How selfish can you be?
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
Everybody wants a better life. Big deal. What matters is how you go about getting your better life. Thieves steal to obtain their better life. Get the picture? If people want to earn more money, then they should make themselves more capable of producing wealth, like getting an education, learning a valulable skill, getting a better job, starting a business, etc.
The answer isn't to remain the same stupid lazy bum you always were, and extort more pay from a company or else you'll strike.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
Taxes aren't contributions. Contributions are voluntary. Taxes are seized from us at the point of a gun. Big fucking difference. And yes, I don't feel that I have to support, or subsidize, the irresponsible behavior of our society.
My philosophy is that if you can't afford to raise a kid (which includes educating that kid!) then don't make a baby. I'm 40 and have managed to stay child-free, so I know it's not hard to do.
If you subsidize irresponsible behavior, you get more of it.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
jbrentoniv, one last thing before I throw you on the union scrap heap, you said I'm what is wrong with America?
Well, let's see, I'm 40, college degreed, have no criminal record, never made any bastard kids, have never taken one dime of public money, have always been self sufficient, run my own business, don't do drugs, barely drink, and basically am an honest, responsible, PRODUCTIVE member of society.
But yeah, I'm the problem with America (if you want America to be a welfare state).
BRYAN351 3 years ago 2
When I asked why they were long gone, I answered the question. I wasnt really asking, thank you. You just showed your ass by saying "union gravy train," "lousy work ethics" etc. You really know very little about this subject.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
jbrentoniv, I've never been a member of a union, but I've known many who have. My best friend worked at Rouge Steel in Dearborn, MI for 13 years, and I heard all kinds of stories from him. People sleeping on the job for 3 hours, having their buddy punch them in on time them coming to work 2 hours late, then leave early and do the same thing, lazy unproductive workers who should be fired being protected by the union. I've heard it all.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
And you dont think lazy people abuse their work in on union jobs? I have been a union steward for years and NEVER represented a person nor defended someone who abused their work ethics. So your stories are just that "stories" TRUST me first time your fired because some boss didnt like you or your kid got sick and they fired you for bringing him to the hospital you will RUN to join a union job
FPiccioli 2 years ago 13
jbrentoniv, my stupid lazy slob of an uncle worked for General Motors for 35 years. One time he supposedly hurt his knee, so he got to take the entire summer off work at 92% pay, then he golfed and climbed in and out of boats all summer. Yeah, his knee must have been devastated.
My uncle was paid a lot of money for being nothing more than a stupid high-school graduate with a lousy work ethic. So yes, there was a union gravy train in America for decades, but the train has crashed. Boo hoo.
BRYAN351 3 years ago
No, your Uncles gravy train ended. Your uncle was an abuser. How is that the Union's fault? If you think the Union defends people who ARE GUILTY of sleeping or drinking on the job you are wrong. Just so you know, you've been arguing with a Union Representative, not a shop steward, but a Business Rep. and I would never fight those things, and I dont know anybody that does. Get your facts straight. Your information is all heresay.
jbrentoniv 3 years ago
The problem there is that tuition at most colleges and trade schools is rising faster than inflation while financial aid is being cut and interest on student loans is being jacked up, while job opportunities for grads are being undercut by outsourcing and bringing in foreign guest workers willing to do those jobs for a fraction of what Americans can afford to live on, meaning that most college grads are pretty much guaranteed to be indentured servants for life.
Pbirv 2 years ago
It's time for college grads to stop thinking like employees and to start thinking like entrepreneurs. I've been self-employed for 15 years and love it. It's awesome not having a boss.
The flow of illegal aliens could be stopped tomorrow if the government wanted to do it, but they don't because big business (who donates heavily to both parties) loves the cheap labor, and neither party wants to offend the Hispanic vote.
College tuition will come down now that the credit gravy train is gone.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Many people can't get the funds to start a business, and not everyone has what it takes to succeed in business. Look at Bush. He ran no less than 3 oil companies into the ground that Poppa's buddies gave him to run. Scrubya couldn't even find oil IN TEXAS!!(Frankly I doubt he could find a hooker in a whorehouse!) It's a proven fact that over 90% of all new businesses fail within the first 5 years.
Pbirv 2 years ago
The world needs ditch-diggers too. Yes, most businesses fail, does that doesn't mean that you have to give up trying. I've failed in several small business ventures in my early years, but you learn from your mistakes, gain wisdom, and get back on the horse. The 3 words to remember are "never give up."
Not all businesses take a lot of money to start. I was a self employed real estate appraiser for 12 years. My office was in my house, and all I needed was a PC, printer, camera, & clipboard.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Yes, you can keep trying, but that doesn't mean you'll succeed at what you're trying. Not everyone is cut out to be a successful business owner anymore than everyone is cut out to be a brain surgeon or astrophysicist. It's a combo of factors, including but not limited to talent, skill, dedication, hard work, timing, and just pure luck. Some people have a gift for success in what they're trying, some don't.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Yep, some people are born losers, but it's not the role of government to give losers a free ride through life, no more than it's their role to give handouts to successful people.
Almost anyone can be self-employed if they wanted to be. Doesn't mean you'll get rich, but you can make a living. Look at Hong Kong. Small government, low taxes/regulations & TONS of entrepreneurs.
You can never get more than 100% of anything, because 100% is all there is.
By the way, what do you do for a living?
BRYAN351 2 years ago
There should be no taxes or regulations on business. No labor or environmental laws, no minimum wage, and unions outlawed and declared to be terrorist groups, hammered with both RICO and the Patriot Act, their members and supporters executed or sent to Gitmo. Once we repeal all labor and environmental laws, business taxes and regulations, and ban the unions, our economy will scream with growth.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
Here's how to deal with the losers- draft their sorry worthless asses into the Army and stick them on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan, and if I had my way, Pakistan, Iran, Syria, and Libya. Require them to kill at least 1000 mudscum each tour of combat duty before they can come home. They'll either come back as men and winners, or die bravely for our country and our cause. Either way it's a win win situation for America.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
If you think the war is so great, then maybe you should enlist. Kill 1000 Muslims per tour of duty? Even Rambo didn't kill that many people!
Pbirv 2 years ago
Have you enlisted?
FPiccioli 2 years ago
US Navy, 1978-1982.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
So, you liked being "Semen Darrel"?
IWLocal8 2 years ago
When I want your input asshole, I'll kick you in the teeth for it. Until then, STFU!!!!
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago
Another internet tough guy. Please stop, I'm shaking from fear. Bet you were a semen 1st class! LMAO Thanks for your service tough guy.
IWLocal8 2 years ago
Yeah, yeah, let's be just like COMMUNIST China. Let's have the economic equivalent of a "Mad Max" movie. Right? You'll just love breathing polluted air and drinking contaminated water. Hey, maybe the next fish you eat at dinner will have 3 eyes, just like the ones near Homer Simpson's nuke plant!
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, I don't believe it would get that bad if there were no environmental laws, because there would be so much public outcry towards flagrant polluters that their business would suffer, so I believe industry would regulate itself to a large degree.
However, I'm in favor of limited environmental laws, as I said to Darrel, because when one party pollutes, it affects another party's property and could lower its utility or value, so it's a property rights issue, as well as a health issue.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
The last time we trusted industry to regulate itself, we had sweatshops, child labor, 12-18 hour workdays in horribly unsafe conditions with few/no safety measures, unsafe products(you might wanna read Upton Siclair's The Jungle sometime- there's PLENTY of similiarities to what China's doing now). Govt regulation of business may not be pretty, but it's better and safer overall than the alternative. Trusting industry to self regulate has proven to be like trusting the fox to guard the henhouse.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, it's not as one sided as the capitalism-hating douchebags would have you believe. Were working conditions more harsh 100 years ago? Sure, but life in general was also more harsh.
Nobody put a gun to people's heads and forced them to take jobs, or to work long hours. As foolish as it may seem to us today, they CHOSE to do those things, because they obviously saw it as an opportunity to get ahead.
China is going through their "I wanna get ahead!" phase right now, 100 years after ours.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"Nobody put a gun to people's heads and forced them to take jobs, or to work long hours. As foolish as it may seem to us today, they CHOSE to do those things"
You'd be surprised what people will do when the alternative is starving. When the choice is between working under such harsh conditions or no job at all....
Pbirv 2 years ago
How do you know their only other alternative was starving to death? lol Why do socialists always try to paint a scenario where someone only has 2 choices in life, one particular job, or starvation? lol
What do you think the unemployment rate in America was 100 years ago? Pretty low I bet. Also, many people moved to the city from the country where they lived on farms, because the industrial revolution created millions of new non-agricultural jobs. Capitalism made this country great.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Unless a person had enough money to start their own business or could get some kind of education, their alternatives were working under such conditions, starving, or turning criminal. Yes, capitalism has good points, but it's far from perfect. Same with socialism. The answer IMO has to be somewhere in the middle where there's some measure of balance. Whenever one side becomes too powerful there's bound to be abuse- that's human nature.
Pbirv 2 years ago
The last time we had a mostly laissez-faire approach to business was in the 1920's, with a HUGE gap between rich and poor. I don't think I need to tell you what happened then. Such a wealth/income gap is not good for any country- socialism, communism, and fascism came as responses to such conditions, which we're coming dangerously close to now, certainly too close for my comfort. I fear what'll happen if that gap gets much wider.
Pbirv 2 years ago
BTW, I'm still in sales. If being concerned about the direction this country's taking and our being on our way to resembling Mexico or Brazil(with 2-5% rich, 5-10% middle class, and everyone else desperately poor) makes me sound like a "negative crybaby", so be it. I know history well enough to know what happens when enough people get pushed into poverty and ways out of their situation get yanked out before their eyes. Bob Marley said it best "a hungry man is an angry man".
Pbirv 2 years ago
If you wanna see what America's future would be without unions or labor laws, go to Thailand. Not only are 40 hour workweeks, overtime, and weekends and holidays off unheard of, but if you even have to take 1 hour off for any reason, you're required to financially reimburse your employer for every second you took off. You seem to think that capitalism and the free market can do no wrong and that I think that socialism and the government can do no wrong. Well you're wrong on both counts.
Pbirv 2 years ago
While the government and the free market both have their merits, they also both have features that suck ass. Thus what would be ideal and what we should strive for IMO is a system that incorporates the best elements of both capitalism and socialism(or at least as approximate as possible)- basically one keeps the other honest. Yin and Yang.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, if a worker got paid for the day that he later decided to take off, then he/she SHOULD reimburse the employer for that day. How does it profit the employer to pay people to not work??
On the other hand, if part of the employment agreement is that workers get x number of paid days off, that's between them and that's fine, but the government has no place FORCING employers to give paid days off to workers.
Prices, wages, work hours, etc etc should be LAISSEZ-FAIRE! A free market is free.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"if a worker got paid for the day that he later decided to take off, then he/she SHOULD reimburse the employer for that day. How does it profit the employer to pay people to not work??" If the worker hasn't been paid yet for the day that they had to take 1 hour off, and the employer expects him to reimburse them for that hour, they could end up docking his pay for the whole day just for that 1 hour or require him to pay them hard cash for it.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Well, I don't know the details of the situations you're talking about, but in my mind, workers should only be paid for the time they work. If both parties agreed to rules where a worker must show up on certain days, or else there will be penalties levied against their paychecks, then as shitty as it is, they agreed to it.
I would not have, because shit happens in life, but you have to view it from the employers side too. Not showing up for work can cost them a lot of money in some cases.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"I believe the Federal Reserve conspiracy theory is true, and we can all look in the mirror and blame ourselves for allowing it to happen" Agreed.
Well, I don't know the details of the situations you're talking about, but in my mind, workers should only be paid for the time they work. If both parties agreed to rules where a worker must show up on certain days, or else there will be penalties levied against their paychecks, then as shitty as it is, they agreed to it."
No argument there.
Pbirv 2 years ago
"On the other hand, if part of the employment agreement is that workers get x number of paid days off, that's between them and that's fine, but the government has no place FORCING employers to give paid days off to workers." I'm not disagreeing there, but when a company mandates 12-18 hour workdays 6-7 days a week, with maybe HALF the day off on Sundays, then something should be done, even if the government doesn't step in.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Sure, something should be done. People should demand better conditions by refusing to work under those conditions. Amazing things can happen if nobody shows up to apply for a company's job openings, you know?
On the other hand, if people agree to those conditions and eagerly show up to apply for those jobs, then that's their freedom of choice at work, and it's nobody's business to interfere with voluntary agreements amongst free people.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"Sure, something should be done. People should demand better conditions by refusing to work under those conditions. Amazing things can happen if nobody shows up to apply for a company's job openings, you know?"
Agreed, but of course that's only effective when there aren't illegals or other scabs willing to accept such conditions.
Pbirv 2 years ago
"Sure, something should be done. People should demand better conditions by refusing to work under those conditions. Amazing things can happen if nobody shows up to apply for a company's job openings, you know?"
Actually that's basically how organized labor got started.
Pbirv 2 years ago
I know, that's how unions were born, but they've gone way overboard, and weren't even necessary in the first place in my opinion. People just needed to stand up as individuals, and seek out jobs that suited them. To many people are too lazy to go out and look.
Some people may not know any better, because the conditions they lived in before that job came along were even worse. Things we take for granted here would be unbelievable luxuries in other countries.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"that's how unions were born, but they've gone way overboard" Unions definitely need a thorough overhaul. They have their problems like all big organizations, but to get rid of them because of those problems? I don't hear too many people saying we should get rid of lawyers because of a few shysters, or get rid of the police because a few cops abuse their authority, or the Catholic Church because a few priests can't keep their hands off small boys.
Pbirv 2 years ago
"People just needed to stand up as individuals, and seek out jobs that suited them."
That's kinda hard to do when pretty much every employer was doing basically the same thing. Simply standing up as an individual quite often has gotten one fired and all too often blacklisted, making them unable to find work anywhere, or at least making it quite difficult. There's strength in numbers.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Or getting rid of Metallica because of that "Some KInd Of Monster" known as "St Anger". I saw your avatar for "And Justice For All"- their last great album IMO.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Apples and oranges. Lawyers and cops serve a vital need, unions don't. In fact, unions do nothing but harm the economy, and ultimately, harm the workers that they're supposed to be helping.
There hasn't been a need for unions since labor laws were created, and it's debatable if they were even needed before that.
Unions are nothing more than professional extortion rackets that shake down companies and force them with strike threats to pay workers MORE than the true market value of their jobs.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
We might not have those labor laws if it wasn't for the unions, who fought for those laws and made sure that companies followed them. If unions were to disappear, how long do you think it'd be before corprorate lobbyists and their right wing buddies in Congress started working to get those laws stripped away if not eventually repealed, or at the very least neutered or watered down so much that they don't matter?
Pbirv 2 years ago
For example, Bush's appointments to the Labor Board reclassified hourly workers as "managers" so that companies could duck out of paying their employees overtime. The result was that those employees found themselves working 60+ hours a week but only getting paid for 40. As to the unions being a racket, the Labor Board has recorded 40,000 reports of abuses by management but only a whopping 20 by unions.
Pbirv 2 years ago
I have a friend in W VA, who lives in coal mining country. The mines used to be UMWA with good pay and benefits, who made sure the mining companies followed the labor laws. Under Reagan, the mines closed and reopened under a stipulation- no union, no grievances, no overtime, and half pay with no benefits or protections. Safety measures fell by the wayside. Nobody in their right mind will go underground to work in such hazardous conditions for what the CO's paying now, so they bring in illegals.
Pbirv 2 years ago 2
The Co puts them up 30-50 to a house, with some of them sleeping on the porch, allows them little if any interaction with the locals, and with safety protections largely gone, one of the mines had a cave-in a couple years ago with only 1 survivor, who was trapped underground with the miners who died for several days. You may have read about it or seen it on the news. Those miners might still be alive if the mines were still union.
Pbirv 2 years ago 2
If you actually READ history ( a novel concept) you would see individuals tried for year after year to stop child labor, 60 hour work weeks, unsafe working conditions where people were killed etc. And NOTHING got done..because only UNITED can a people change thing with a big business. Standing up as an individual against the largest corps in the world dont stand a chance. United we bargain divided we beg. READ!
FPiccioli 2 years ago 2
FPiccioli, unions don't bargain, they extort. And, what's wrong with people CHOOSING to work 60 hours a week? Nobody forced anyone to work over 40 hours a week, but many people wanted to (and want to today), to get ahead.
Children working? Again, nobody put a gun to their heads and forced them to work. And, where are the parents?
Also, 100 years ago, a 15yo quitting school and working full time was common, even the norm, unlike today.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
You need to do me a favor and actualy go to school or read a book about labor history. YES,...people were froced to work 50-60 hour weeks...this was the norm before the standard 40 hour week. And YES the children were forced...by their parents and by society. What a sicko you most be to say that child labor is an okay thing if parents are okay with it. You had 10 year olds in factories all day in unsafe conditions not going to school and working 12 hour days. Go to CHINA, youll fit it
FPiccioli 2 years ago 3
"On the other hand, if people agree to those conditions and eagerly show up to apply for those jobs, then that's their freedom of choice at work, and it's nobody's business to interfere with voluntary agreements amongst free people. "
Possibly, but I can't think of too many people who'd willingly, voluntarily agree to such conditions, unless they don't know any better.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv (part 2) the depression in the '30s was caused by too much government meddling, not a lack of it.
The Federal Reserve printed too much money in the early/mid '20s, which created the boom bubble, then drastically reduced printing in the late 20's, which caused the collapse.
Many believe this was their (evil international bankers running the whole show behind the scenes) intention.
I'd rather be a "poor" person in American than a middle-class or even rich person in most other countries.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"Pbirv (part 2) the depression in the '30s was caused by too much government meddling, not a lack of it.
The Federal Reserve printed too much money in the early/mid '20s, which created the boom bubble, then drastically reduced printing in the late 20's, which caused the collapse." The Fed is a private bank. It's no more Federal than Federal Express.
"Many believe this was their (evil international bankers running the whole show behind the scenes) intention." Quite probably true.
Pbirv 2 years ago
I believe the Federal Reserve conspiracy theory is true, and we can all look in the mirror and blame ourselves for allowing it to happen.
By the way, the international bankers LOVE big government socialism, because governments usually borrow vast sums of money to fund the entitlement programs, and guess who reaps all the interest?
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Pbirv (part 3) what's wrong with a huge gap in wealth?? In good economic times, the wealth of all classes increases. Just because the poor have 30% more wealth, and the rich have 500% more wealth, so fucking what?? The socialist philosophy stems from one thing, ENVY.
YOU WOULD RATHER HAVE THE POOR BE POORER, PROVIDING THE RICH WERE LESS RICH.
So, what do you sell? You can't be doing very well, given the attitudes you have (and the amount of time you WASTE here on YouTube).
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Finally Pbirv, I'll leave you with this before I go.
CAPITALISTS WANT TO KEEP THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABOR.
SOCIALISTS WANT TO STEAL THE FRUITS OF THEIR NEIGHBOR.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
Pbirv, bullshit. If you want to start a business but can't right now, then you work, save, get educated, and do it when you're able. Simple. You don't turn to crime.
If people, by and large, refuse to work in certain conditions, then employers improve them to attract workers. It's simple supply & demand.
People obviously agreed with the working conditions back then, because there was, is, and always will be ALTERNATIVES in the job market. Nobody is forced to work one particular job.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"then employers improve them to attract workers" Or they bring in people willing to accept them. Why do you think illegals are so attractive to all too many employers.
"Pbirv (part 3) what's wrong with a huge gap in wealth??" Look what that's done to Mexico. That's largely why so many people there get into the drug trade and why so many Mexicans cross over into here illegally.
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, the wealth gap in a country like Mexico isn't comparable to the gap in a country like the USA. Mexico's govt. are a handful of crooks who basically steal everything for themselves, and everyone else has little or no free market in which to create their own wealth. Much different than here, where the poor have every opportunity to create wealth.
I agree with you about the illegals flooding in. Stop the flow, employ only Americans, and wages and conditions will go up.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
"Mexico's govt. are a handful of crooks who basically steal everything for themselves, and everyone else has little or no free market in which to create their own wealth." At the rate we're going, we may be headed in the same direction. Certainly both parties are run by crooks.
"Much different than here, where the poor have every opportunity to create wealth."
For now yes, but if the way things are going continues....
Pbirv 2 years ago
"I agree with you about the illegals flooding in. Stop the flow, employ only Americans, and wages and conditions will go up."
BINGO!!!!
Pbirv 2 years ago
You bring up a great question..100 years ago, there were 9 year old working in filthy factories 12 hours a day. Woman were barred from employment in many areas, Business didnt give medical insurence, if you got hurt or permently disabled at work you got fired. Little or no safety regulations and thousands of workers killed at work in factories and mines. No paid sick leave. No vacation time. You,,,Deefrom Zeeland..and others are ignorant of history
FPiccioli 2 years ago 4
Pbirv, so anyway, you were in sales? I can see why you're not in that field anymore, given your piss-poor, socialist attitude.
I've also worked in commission sales, and did well, so I know what it takes to succeed in that profession. A strong work ethic, and a self-reliant, positive attitude are what you must have.
This negative, cry-baby, "feed me Uncle Sam" baby bird with your mouth open attitude that you seem to have would ensure your failure in sales (or any profession really).
BRYAN351 2 years ago
These people didnt CHOOSE it...it was the norm and would be today if unions didnt stop it. It was either do it or starve,..just as stark a decision to make as if someone had a gun to your head. And your right China is doing it now...and exploiting workers like we did. And its just as morally wrong
FPiccioli 2 years ago 6
Darrel, I agree with everything on that list except the environmental law part. I'm not a tree-hugging hippy faggot or anything, but I feel the govt. should play a limited but important role in outlawing pollution, because when one party pollutes the environment, it affects another party's property, so it's a property rights issue.
And "mudscum"? Come on dude, I'm full of white pride too, but many good Americans are brown, and using words like that isn't fair to them.
BRYAN351 2 years ago
I agree that people shouldn't get a free ride thru life unless they're disabled, but the government should give a hand up(not handout) to those who need it and are willing to work.
Yes, almost anyone can be self employed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll make enough $ to live on. There are small business owners who qualify for food stamps because their businesses don't turn enough profit.
Pbirv 2 years ago
I work in sales, but I am looking at various online businesses where I can work from home. Maybe you've seen some of them advertised on TV?
Pbirv 2 years ago
Pbirv, hand-up, hand-out, you say potato, I say po-tot-o. Hand-up and hand-out are the same thing. The only people who should get hand-outs are the disabled, the insane, orphaned children, and the elderly. Everyone else is on their own, as far as the government is concerned.
If someone tries and tries but can't succeed in running their own business, then they should be allowed to fail, and then go work for someone else. Entrepreneurship isn't for everyone.
Online businesses? Uh-oh. MLM?
BRYAN351 2 years ago
I'll tell you what it is douchebag. It's getting an education, a REAL, hands on education learning a profitable, in demand skilled trade, NOT a useless lib arts education. It's NOT using drugs or alcohol or having kids as a teen or kids you can't afford. Anyone with enough moxie, hustle, ruthlessness, and just plain GO GO GO can still make it in this economy as long as you look out only for yourself and fuck everyone else.
DarrelfromZeeland 2 years ago