"It cannot be found explicitly stated in the earliest Christian writings. The only passage of the New Testament that declares the doctrine (1 John 5:7-8) was not originally part of the text but was added by doctrinally astute scribes at a later date" (it is not found in any Greek manuscripts until the 11th century) (Ehrman B. From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity, Part 2. The Teaching Company, Chantilly (VA), 2004, p. 43).
and: in the verses I posted some hours ago - you will learn that the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is also God. read them. and then think about what you claim here that has no basis in the Scriptures.
@seaneire oh, you speak hebrew? What about: "Shema Yisrael, YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH echad" - Eloheinu - God (Singular form but consisting of multiples) - "echad" - ONE = term used also in the Scriptures when 1 man + 1 woman = become 1 flesh by marriage; and also used when God made the 1st day! How? do you know how? 1 day + 1 night = 1 day ---- is that correct?
@seaneire ok - does the Bible say anywhere of Jesus to be Mighty God? Eternal Father?
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
And: you don´t seem to read carefully: Trinity is the belief in only ONE God.
@seaneire well, then you say that the Bible is a lie (have ya read it?) - It says the Father is God, it also says that the Son is God, and it also says that the Holy Spirit is God. Early christians believed it - there are aobut 18.000 comments from the 1st century onwards, and not what heretics teach you.
Jesus was Thomases God - why not yours? John 20:27-28: "Stop doubting and believe."
what did Thomas say? "Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
@seaneire and what did Jesus respond??? "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
See, you should better examine the lies you are taught about the trinity and should look up encyclopedias what christians in the first century believed. not like heretics love to misquote and even say that trinity began in the 4th century.
@seaneire the trinity was believed by the apostles - since they testified what trinitarians believe, they described what is revealed in the New Testament. Again I tell you: Do research whether or not the trinity was commented on by early christians in the 1st century, 2nd etc. The council you speak of had to be made because ARIAN HERETICS came out with their own philosophies to the point that the council had to be made, the creeds to make a difference to heretics.
@seaneire trinity not in the bible, so is it with the word "theocracy" - But: Did the jews have a theocracy they lived by? they DID.
catholics came in the 4th century and added their own peculiar traditions and false worshippings - trinity exists from the apostles time, honey, otherwise you say that Thomas and other apostles are liars or what? "my Lord and my God" John 20:28.
You should not believe men and their lies, turn to God and his Word and prove all things -
@seaneire Please clarify what you are saying. so far you are saying the trinity is true yet you say its not.. yes yahweh is a spirit he is manifested in the flesh and he gives us his spirit. thats the trinity God is all 3 of them. the 3 are one essence so its 1 God.
@seaneire ? The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is completely God. He is called God (Acts 5:3-4), has a will (1 Cor. 12:11), speaks (Acts 8:29; 13:2), and knows all things (John 14:17). He is not an "active force" as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. He knows all things (1 Cor. 2:10-11).
@seaneire I was trying to get you to read verses from the Bible - proving that a) the trinity is a biblical not men-made doctrine. If you had read them ever, you would not believe what heretics taught you, - is this all you have to say to all these verses?
@seaneire First, strawman argumentation won't get you anywhere. You either have to argue against what Trinitarians actually believe, or it really is no argument against Trinitarianism at all. So, as Trinitarians, we believe God is One (Deut. 6:4), that is the absolute first affirmation of the Trinitarian faith -- monotheism. There has never been more than One God, and never will be more than One God.
@clintjordan if that made sense then the trinity wouldn't be disputed. There is not a verse that says: 1God is a "person" 2God is "3 persons" 3Yahshua is "distinct from Yah" (Yahshua actually says the opposite) 4God is 3 coequal persons 5God is 3 coeternal persons 6God is 3 persons sharing "one essence" 7God is a trinity/triune or that God is more than one. None of the beliefs trinitarians affirm exist in the word of God. KJV 3 persons is a "gang" not our Creator. The HOLY ONE of Israel.
@seaneire Abraham knew that YHWH consists of three: Genesis 18: The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. (..)
Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
read genesis 18. or this: Mt 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," ONE NAME 4 THREE.
@seaneire haha, well, you wanted to see verses where the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is God - I have given you these verses and you say hearsay?? have you read them? or do we all are here just to chat a little and to put our own opinion of what the Bible says on yt? why not examine in the light of Scriptures?
@seaneire is it important whether or not your are "right" or is it important what scriptures tell us? have you made ANY effort to check it in the scriptures? if you have no interest in what scripture tells you - then you should not comment on scriptures :).
@seaneire dear, what sense makes your theory? the Father is called God, the Son is called God (Hebrews 1:8 etc) and the Holy Ghost is called God.
Also what early christians believed long before ungodly roman-cath. church came up - proves that they knew what they were believing in. Heretic Arianism and Gnosticism said like you that this is false what is written in the Bible. so whats your point. there is only one Godhead, YHWH, all of the same substance, God by nature, not in position.
if there are 3 persons in the false god most christians worship (based on their own unserstanding/reasoning) WHICH ONE OF THOSE 3 IS THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL?
Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.
@seaneire again: have you checked the verses below? does the Bible lie when saying about the Holy Spirit is God? as it says of the Son and as it says of the Father?
trinity is defined that there is only ONE God. The Father holds the 1st position, the Son the 2nd, the Holy Spirit the 3rd.
Thats based on Scripture as I have already posted the verses and also on early christians expressions / writings - follows:
@seaneire I proved you are wrong - but of course, we all have a free will. as long as you dont look it up in the scriptures Im wishing you a nice evening.
@seaneire noone could prove to you dear - because you even refuse to look it up in God´s Word. it makes no sense. since you by yourself know everything already.
"It is indeed true that the name "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man." (Luther Martin. The Sermons of Martin Luther, Church Postil, 1522; III:406-421, PC Study Bible
@seaneire so, early christians (see please comments below with sources where you can research that on your own) were wrong, you are right? and the Bible is wrong, not you? nice evening though
@seaneire "Wherefore also I praise Thee [the ever-truthful God] for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" - Epistle of the church at Smyrna Ch.14 ANTE Vol 1 p.92
Polycarp of Smyrna, a student of the Apostle John - 150 AD
@seaneire " we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein,(..) First Apology Ch. 13 ANTE Vol 1 p.309
@seaneire "The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas ch.25
Irenaeus, student of Polycarp - 180 AD
So, only a few examples that show that early christians - even students of the Apostle JOHN expressed their belief that God is triune. - that has nothing to do with the ungodly roman-cath. church that came to existance in 4th century
@seaneire "The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas ch.25
@seaneire once again: The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is completely God. He is called God (Acts 5:3-4), has a will (1 Cor. 12:11), speaks (Acts 8:29; 13:2), and knows all things (John 14:17). He is not an "active force" as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. He knows all things (1 Cor. 2:10-11).
once again.. you only have to open God´s Word and examine whether or not you are "right" or God´s Word. greets
@seaneire ----"what does one mean?" ur comment. my question: what does one day mean? In the Scriptures it says i.e. for the 1st day God created: 1 day + 1 night = ??? 1 day, isnt it? (echad, as I told you before). So, can you with human logic explain an eternal God? Do you only exist as body? or is there more to it?You say Yahshua is God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit . But you condemn trinity? what is YOUR point? read t bible, the verses below on F, S, HS I posted. u cant say Bible lies.
@seaneire The entire text of Scripture attests to the distinction of Persons between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son prayed to the Father, not to Himself. The Spirit came to proclaim Christ, not Himself. The Son sits at the right hand of the Father. In the OT, YHWH speaks of another also called YHWH (Amos 4:10-11 [c.f. Genesis 19:24], Jeremiah 50:39-40, Isaiah 13:17-19, Hosea 1:6-7, Genesis 35:1, Zechariah 2:8-11).
@seaneire One text in particular that attributes equality between the Father, and Son is the famous text of John 1:1. And ironically enough, this text also distinguishes between the Father, and the Word, and does not confuse them one for another.
Genesis15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield,and thy exceeding great reward.
1Sam.3:21And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh:for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
This is how Yah manifests to us...how Yah created all things
Psalms33:6By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
NONE SENSE AND NOT LOGICAL VIDEO!THE FATHER GOD AND JESUS IS JUST EQUAL BY NAME OR FAME ONLY, BUT OF COURSE NOT IN THE POSITION!! BECAUSE TRINITY IT MEANS TRI OR IS DETERMINING TREE PERSON..SO HOW COULD BE THE GOD FATHER AND JESUS AND THE ESPRIT IS EQUAL?YET JESUS SAID (JOHN 5:36) AND (JOHN 14:28) THIS VERSE STATED TO PROVE THAT TRINITY IS NOT A LOGICAL & BIBLICAL DOCTRINE!! OF COURSE JESUS IS GREATER THAN THE ESPRIT (JOHN 15:26) SO PROVING THAT (FATHER,JESUS,SPIRIT) IS NOT EQUAL IN POSITION..
@MyDfdsa I explain John 14:28 in one of my videos. Jesus doesn't say the Father is a greater Being than Him or anything like that. His point to His disciples was that they should rejoice because He's going BACK to the Father. He's going back to His EQUALITY (John 17:5).
@ETHANGELIST SO EQUALITY MEANT TO SAY TRINITY????LOL SO WHAT ABOUT SPIRIT DO REALLY EQUALITY TO JESUS & ALSO TO FATHER GOD???WOULD YOU SEND ME THE VERSE ABOUT THE SPIRIT IS EQUALITY OF JESUS AND ALSO TO FATHER GOD PLEASE..
@MyDfdsa Trinity does not say that Father & Son have the same position, yet that they are equal. If Jesus is the Son of God by nature - what can he be other than God by nature? You are human, arent you? your parents are human - though your father holds a greater position than you - still you are not inferior to him in nature, are you?
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:33)
@MyDfdsa "DO YOU HAVE VERSE IN THE BIBLE THAT THE SPIRIT SATED IS A GOD...??LOL"
Acts 5:3-4, the Holy Spirit is called God. 1Cor 2:10, the Spirit is omniscient and also see Job 33:4; Ps 104:30, Ps 139:7-8 for proof that He is omnipotent and omnipresent.
@ETHANGELIST LOL SO WHAT ABOUT MOISES HIS ALSO A GOD(EXODU 7:1)..SO IT MEANS MOISES IS EQUALITY TO FATHER GOD AND JESUS AND ALSO SPIRIT????BRO..AS I UNDERSTAND WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE THAT JESUS AND FATHER GOD IS JUST EQUALITY BY NAME AND FAMOUS SAME LIKE MOISES....CLEARLY THEY ARE NOT EQUALITY IN POSITION !!!
10:14-10:30. Tell that to JWS. According to them a created being can create the universe with all its living beings, save sinners, own the keys to death and Hades, lead legions of angels, accept worship (even the angel in Revelation refused John's worship) and physically resurrect people from the grave. A mere created being can't do all this and worshipping a created being is idolatry. Do JWs even realize how absurd they sound?
@seaneire really? the trinity is NOT biblical? look at this: Genesis 18:1 "The LORD appeared to Abraham..." (..) Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried .."
So, you see, believers always understood that God is one God - of multiples.
So did early Christians - you can read this all in encyclopedias - there are about 18.000 comments of early Christians beginning in 1st century, but heretics lie about the definition of trinity - see my video"trinity"
Jesus said: Before Abraham was, " I AM ". How many " I AM "s are there? There is only ONE " I AM ", that is God the Father, that is the divinity of Jesus. There is no God the Son.
@ETHANGELIST , Come on, stop joking. I just checked Isaiah 9:6 from different versions and they all speak MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE. Shall I believe your own theory? Don't be funny.
@jundurias "I just checked Isaiah 9:6 from different versions and they all speak MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE."
Yeah, that's because they are translating the Hebrew, not the Greek Septuagint. Besides, if you checked all those many translations, you saw that Jesus is sometimes called "Father of Eternity" right? Jesus is no called God the Father, He is simply called the "Father" or "Creator" OF eternity.
@ETHANGELIST, "Father of eternity", "everlasting Father", "God the Father", "Creator"---- They all mean the same thing. It speaks of the "ONE and ONLY GOD". It speaks of the divinity of JESUS.
@jundurias "It speaks of the "ONE and ONLY GOD". It speaks of the divinity of JESUS."
Well I think I would agree with you on that one. But again, you have the presupposition that the one true God is only one person. You have no right to force your presuppositions about God onto the Bible or onto His nature. Hypothetically speaking, IF YHWH is 3 persons according to the Bible, would you believe the Bible and let go of your presuppositions? Or will you never believe the Trinity at all costs?
@ETHANGELIST, It is not my presupposition that One God is one person but the bible says it. The scriptures doesn't bluff you. When it says one, it means ONE, not THREE. Trinity is based on presuppositons and implications. It is not reliable. How can I believe the trinity when I can see it very clearly that it is an error, a lie, illogical, and contradictory to the scriptures. When God said I am the Lord your God, no God besides me, before me, neither after me. Does it sounds like trinity?
@jundurias It's good that you're quoting Hebrews 1. How do you explain this verse then:
† God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. † (Hebrews 1:1-2, NASB)
God [the Father] created the world through His Son. Isn't that 2 divine persons creating the universe, therefore your doctrine is refuted?
@ETHANGELIST, " God [the Father] created the world through His Son. Isn't that 2 divine persons creating the universe, therefore your doctrine is refuted?"
Please read the scriptures again and again with open heart and you will see that it does not speak of 2 divine persons. It is all in your imagination because you are brainwashed.
You are not refuting me, but you are trying to refute he scriptures.
@jundurias "Please read the scriptures again and again with open heart and you will see that it does not speak of 2 divine persons. It is all in your imagination because you are brainwashed.
You are not refuting me, but you are trying to refute he scriptures."
It is clear that you have no answer for Hebrews 1:1-2. So you avoid it by calling me brainwashed. God created the world through His Son. Basic stuff. There are so many one off verses that destroy your doctrine. John 17:5 for example.
@jundurias You keep going on and on about how there is ONE GOD. I 100% agree with you. You keep accusing me of believing in three gods, but I don't at all. Polytheism is an abomination. You should argue against MY doctrine, rather than your own false version of my doctrine. Isaiah 44:24 is one of my favorite verses. Of course YHWH alone created all things. No problem. I don't have the presupposition. I used to believe Jesus is the Father, but Scripture showed me otherwise.
@ETHANGELIST , "You should argue against MY doctrine, rather than your own false version of my doctrine."
Now by the slip of your tongue, you have admitted unaware that it is your own doctrine, and not the doctrine of the bible.
I never said that Jesus is the Father, neither the scriptures said it. But I said as the scriptures say that the Father is in Jesus. God the Father(the only God) is in Jesus. It is the divinity in Jesus.
@jundurias This was not what I was saying. Yahweh is the Jewish national name of God. Which is translated LORD in most Bibles but does not mean Lord. That is to say...when Adonay is used for God, it should be taken to mean that it is bringing out the majesty and divinity of God over all the universe. Yahweh, however, is ALWAYS the Jewish national name of God. Yahweh, NOT Yahushua is our God. Revelation 3:12. I follow Yahushua Messiah-King. You teach different Yahushua.
@ETHANGELIST This was not what I was saying. Yahweh is the Jewish national name of God. Which is translated LORD in most Bibles but does not mean Lord. That is to say...when Adonay is used for God, it should be taken to mean that it is bringing out the majesty and divinity of God over all the universe. Yahweh, however, is ALWAYS the Jewish national name of God. Yahweh, NOT Yahushua is our God. Revelation 3:12. I follow Yahushua Messiah-King. You teach different Yahushua.
@ETHANGELIST, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I AM the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF;" Does it sounds like trinity?
Before We continue, Can you please define to me trinity?
@jundurias I think I will end this discussion now. Clearly you don't want to discuss the truth of Scripture. Instead of an intellectual discussion, you are now resorting to ad hominem attacks against me. And you keep misrepresenting my doctrine and bringing the Roman Catholics into the discussion. They have nothing to do with my beliefs about the nature of God. If you want to continue, argue logically instead of emotionally and refrain from insulting me. I hope God blesses you and truth wins.
@jundurias Your only arguments so far have been ad hominem and contradiction. Saying the Trinity is false is one thing, but proving it using Scripture is a whole different thing. And you haven't even refuted the arguments I represented in this video. Your Jesus cannot possibly fit Paul's point in Philippines 2 and the context. Your Jesus makes Paul's whole point null and void. Without the Trinity, THERE IS NO GOSPEL. Finding the truth of the nature of God is vital to salvation.
@ETHANGELIST , When I asked you to define trinity, You said let's end this discussion for fear that your definition can cause you more trouble. Now you are back again.You are truly a fickle minded like your theory of trinity whch I'm telling you bluntly that it is not scriptural.
Your argunment that "I AM" refers only to YHWH , and not God the Father, nor Jesus makes you more confused because you have now 4 Gods. I refuted you all by scriptures.
@jundurias And Deu 6:4 is simply confirming monotheism and declaring that YHWH is one Being, not one person. And ironically, It is actually paralleled by Paul in 1Cor 8:6. Sometimes Deu 6:4 is translated as "The LORD our God is one LORD" and yet Paul calls Jesus Christ the "one Lord", therefore calling Him the same YHWH found in Deu 6:4. And of course when Paul calls the Father the "one God", he is also confirming the Father is the same YHWH in Deu 6:4, where the word "God" is also mentioned.
@ETHANGELIST, Where did you get the idea that one being is three persons? It is not in the bible, not in any documents, and it is not in common sense. Being when when it refers to human or God is the same as person.
Heb 1:3 in KJV it says of the Son as "the express image of His(God) person." In NIV it says, the exact representation of His(God) being.
If there is a trinity it should say: the express image of His 2nd person, or the express image of one of His persons.
@ETHANGELIST Except for the fact the Paul says we have one God the Father (that is to say Paul denies that Jesus is the one God) and one Lord Jesus Christ (that is that Yahushua Messiah-King who Satan has tricked you into believing is God is our Master).
@Danielezerable "Except for the fact the Paul says we have one God the Father (that is to say Paul denies that Jesus is the one God) and one Lord Jesus Christ..."
So are you concluding also that Paul is denying the Father as being the one Lord? Does the Father have zero lordship? Yes or no. And isn't YHWH called the "one Lord" in Deu 6:4? Doesn't that mean Paul is calling Jesus YHWH when he calls Jesus the "one Lord"?
" For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. " Where did you get this? So you don't believe anymore that Jesus is God? and Prince of peace? Why do you agree with this translation when they remove that Jesus is God, Prince of peace, etc? Just to prove that I am wrong? So you do not want to call Jesus your everlasting Father?
3. Philippians 2:5-11 speaks of Jesus as God manifested in the flesh.(1 Tim 3:16 ).
Verse 5 speaks of Christ Jesus. Christ is the humanity of Jesus, the Savior, the one who gave His life to save the world. God cannot die( God is eternal ). Verse 9 says that God exalted Him. God does not exalt God, but God exalt man.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? God the Father! But in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise His own body from the dead. The divinity of Jesus is God the Father not God d Son.
@jundurias And also, you accuse us Trinitarians of picking a "few verses that seem to imply the Trinity", yet can you find JUST ONE verse where Jesus says "I am the Father" or of any New Testament writer calling Jesus the Father? There is none. So why believe Jesus is the Father when the Bible never ever says so?
@ETHANGELIST, 1. Did I say that Jesus is the Father? No, I did not say that. What I said is "the divinity in Jesus is God the Father". These are 2 different things. You know that Jesus has 2 natures, humanity and divinity. He is both God and man. As the Christ or Messiah, He is a man,That's what He came for to redeem us though he did not lost His divinity. That's why He prays to God, That's why He calls God His Father, That's why He was born, grew, experienced pain, hunger, thirst, and died.
2. I have already shown you verse that proves that the divinity in Jesus is "God the Father". There is no "God the Son" which the trinitarian call Jesus. The scripture says that God the Father raised Jesus, but in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise His body. Is this not enough for you?
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born...
And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace."
There is only one Everlasting Father, He is God the Father.
2. The doctrine of the trinity was invented by the Catholic Church. Every true Christian knows that this church is anti Christ and invented many unscriptural and devilish doctrines that resulted to dark ages. Even tithing in Christianity was also invented by the Catholics.
Among the hundreds of verses that speak of one God I pick Isaiah 43:10-15, Deut 6:4-9, and Mark 12 :29 for you to consider reading and you will Find out that there is not even a slight hint of trinity or implying trinity.
@jundurias "The doctrine of the trinity was invented by the Catholic Church" That is historically false. If we were to say that the council of Nicaea of 325 AD "invented" the Trinity, that council still predates Roman Catholicism by about 300 years. Man I wish Oneness people would stop using that argument, if I can even call it an argument. Besides, we have so much evidence predating 325 AD of the early church father, the spiritual children of the apostles, were also Trinitarians.
@ETHANGELIST, I don't know what is council of Nicea, and what it has to do with our discussion. What I know is that the Catholic invented the trinity and Protestantism came from Catholicism through Martin Luther. He was a former Catholic priest who protest against the Catholic church because of many wrong doctrines and practices.
But hebrought with him the doctrine of trinity and tithing in Christianity. Both are not scriptural.There is no trinity, nor God the Son, nor eternal Son in the bible.
@jundurias "Among the hundreds of verses that speak of one God " Yes, I know there is only one God, His name is YHWH. I'm strictly monotheist. How about you argue Scripture with me properly, instead of accusing me of joining the Catholics, and being a polytheist? How about you discuss this with me allowing the definition and the terms of the Trinity to stand?
@ETHANGELIST, How can you be strictly monotheist and believe in three Gods or 3 persons in God? Are you trying to say that one equals three( 1= 3 )?
Am I not arguing with you properly? Did I tell you that you are joining the Catholics? What I said is that the Catholics invented the trinity. You are accusing me of things that I have not said. I know the fact that the Protestants separated from the Catholics.
@jundurias It is FACT that the Roman Catholics do not invent the Trinity, because Trinitarians were already around 100s of years before the first pope was even born. It is amazing that you don't know the council of Nicaea. It is only the most important and greatest church council ever convened. And why are you talking about Martin Luther and the Roman Catholics? How about we focus on what Scripture really says and what the inspired authors really believed?
@ETHANGELIST, Focus on scriptures? You don't even believe the scriptures. The scriptures keep telling us that there is only one God. You keep telling us that they are three. Isa 43.11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior". Where is trinity here? I gave you only one verse, there are lots more. Give one verse that says God is trinity. You cannot because there is none.
@jundurias "The scriptures keep telling us that there is only one God. You keep telling us that they are three."
I've never ever said there are 3 Gods. So stop twisting what I said. I'm saying the one Being of God, is shared by 3 persons. There is a huge difference between "being" and "person". I don't prefer to use the term "God the Son", so stop going on about that. I know there is absolutely one God, so let's move on from that. Let's discuss Scripture instead.
@ETHANGELIST, So you mean that three persons is one being? Where did you get this idea? YOU ARE NOT DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES.
I AM NOT TWISTING WHAT YOU SAID. You said that three of them raised Jesus from the dead. God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And you believe those three are Gods. I am not twisting your words but it's you twisting the scriptures
@jundurias Jesus does not say He is the Father in John 2:19. You're reading way too much into what Jesus said. Yes the Father raised Jesus from the dead, but the Son also did, and Romans 8:11 says the Holy Spirit also raised Jesus from the dead. John 2:19 does not prove Jesus is the Father at all. And in Isaiah 9:6, you are again reading your theology into the verse. Isaiah 9:6 is actually calling Jesus the "Father of Eternity". "Father" is synonymous with "creator" as Malachi 2:10 proves.
@ETHANGELIST , So you mean that three Gods raised Jesus from the dead? I told you that there is no trinity. There is no God the Son, that raised Jesus from the dead. There is only ONE GOD, the FATHER. Why do you insist that there is God the Son when there is none? You believe that Jesus is both God and man. So the divinity of Jesus is God the Father because there is no God the Son. Open your heart , not your intellectuality.
@jundurias "The scriptures keep telling us that there is only one God. You keep telling us that they are three."
I've never ever said there are 3 Gods. So stop twisting what I said. I'm saying the one Being of God, is shared by 3 persons. There is a huge difference between "being" and "person". I don't prefer to use the term "God the Son", so stop going on about that. I know there is absolutely one God, so let's move on from that. Let's discuss Scripture instead.
@ETHANGELIST , So you mean that three persons is one being? Where did you get this idea? YOU ARE NOT DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES.
I AM NOT TWISTING WHAT YOU SAID. You said that three of them raised Jesus from the dead. God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And you believe those three are Gods. I am not twisting your words but it's you twisting the scriptures
@jundurias "How can you be strictly monotheist and believe in three Gods or 3 persons in God?"
Can't you allow for the fact that the Being of God is truly unique? Since when is any of us to insist that God exists in a particular way or that He cannot possibly be more than 1 person? God is God, and we are not. If He exists in 3 persons, who are we to question He form of existence?
@jundurias "How can He exist in three persons when the scriptures say ONE GOD, ONE LORD, ONE PERSON, ONE BEING."
1Cor 8:6 says, † yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. † (NASB)
Clearly this verse makes the distinction between God the Father and the Lord Jesus. They are 2 different persons in this verse, yet BOTH created all things, refuting your doctrine.
@ETHANGELIST , 1Cor 8:6- This verse teach that there is only one God the Father. I told you that is the divinity in Jesus. The scripture says Jesus Christ. That means the humanity of Jesus, the messiah, the one who died for us. Jesus Christ or Jesus is His human Name. We exist through Him because He died for us and saved us from death. " YET FOR US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER.."
@jundurias "The scripture says Jesus Christ. That means the humanity of Jesus, the messiah, the one who died for us. Jesus Christ or Jesus is His human Name. We exist through Him because He died for us and saved us from death."
That's NOT what 1Cor 8:6 says at all. It says Jesus Christ, BY whom are ALL THINGS and we EXIST through Him. You say this is the human Jesus? That is absolutely impossible. It says Jesus created ALL THINGS. And shows that Jesus and the Father are 2 divine persons. Explain
@ETHANGELIST, This verse teach us that there is only "one God, the Father."
1Cor 8:6
"yet for us there is but one God, the Father,.."
1 Cor 8:6
"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." NIV.
NIV says through whom, NASB says by whom. Now prove to me that NIV is wrong and NASB is correct.
@jundurias "NIV says through whom, NASB says by whom. Now prove to me that NIV is wrong and NASB is correct."
It doesn't matter whether the word should be translated to "through" or "by". If it really says "one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came", it is still saying that the Lord Jesus CHRIST is the creator of all things. So again, if 1Cor 8:6 clearly shows the distinction between Jesus and the Father, yet both are the Creator, doesn't that fully refute your doctrine?
@ETHANGELIST, Stop talking nonsense. The verse is telling you that there is only ONE GOD and you are insisting they are two. "1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father,..."
1 Tim 2:5 "For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
@ETHANGELIST, Stop talking nonsense. The verse is telling you that there is only ONE GOD and you are insisting they are two. "1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father,..."
1 Tim 2:5 "For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
I have given you several verses teaching there is only ONE GOD, while you are giving me verses which seemingly imply trinity in your understanding, but don't really teach trinity, and you call it fact. Wake up
You are complicating the simple message that there is only one God. The bible simply decare that there is only one God. You don't believe and you add: "but there are 3 persons." There is not a single verse that teach trinity. You just pick few verses that SEEMS TO IMPLY TRINITY and explain it in long tedious way to fit your belief. But the bible simply declares that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. Phil 2:5-11 does not teach trinity. You are just trying hard out of scriptures that it is trinity.
@jundurias "You just pick few verses that SEEMS TO IMPLY TRINITY and explain it in long tedious way to fit your belief."
Actually I let ALL OF SCRIPTURE to speak and to stand on its own. I test every doctrine against Scripture, and if Scripture refutes a particular doctrine, I must throw out that doctrine for the sake of God's Word. And I've found in my many years of being a Christian, that even if I wanted to "throw out" the Trinity, it is biblically impossible. God's Word simply teaches it.
@ETHANGELIST It only guarantees the Trinity because you want it to do so. First off, it proves Jesus had to climb a latter of success. Also, it proves Jesus was humble on earth. Finally, it proves that God and Jesus aren't on the same level because God rose Him to that level.
@Danielezerable You're forgetting the fact that Jesus has 2 natures, which is clearly expressed in this passage ("form of God" and "likeness of men"). Firstly, what does "form of God" mean to you, in light of the Greek word "morphe"? And why does Paul mention equality with God?
@ETHANGELIST You're forgetting that all things created are in the form of God since we are also created in the very image of God. Hence, Jesus appeared not as God but in the form of God. Paul says Jesus did not claim equality with God. Stop twisting scriptures around my friend. You need to listen to Jesus before He comes back to kill you at Armageddon.
when speaking of the trinity
"It cannot be found explicitly stated in the earliest Christian writings. The only passage of the New Testament that declares the doctrine (1 John 5:7-8) was not originally part of the text but was added by doctrinally astute scribes at a later date" (it is not found in any Greek manuscripts until the 11th century) (Ehrman B. From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity, Part 2. The Teaching Company, Chantilly (VA), 2004, p. 43).
seaneire 1 hour ago
and: in the verses I posted some hours ago - you will learn that the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is also God. read them. and then think about what you claim here that has no basis in the Scriptures.
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@HeavenClear
please tell me and anyone who reads this WHAT I SAID THAT IS NOT BACKED BY SCRIPTURES?
PLEASE
YOU WONT FIND IT.
seaneire 22 hours ago
@seaneire
it's been 21 hours found anything yet?
I'm just going to obey God and reject heretics...you've had plenty of admonitions.
If you choose to be willingly deceived so you can stay a part of the flase church the wcc etc then so be it. I'd rather live in the truth.
seaneire 1 hour ago
Yahshua is Yahweh. He is the RIGHT ARM/HAND of Elohim.
There is no scriptures that teach the trinity.
all trinitarians do is take their false doctrine and try to make scripture fit into it.
seaneire 2 weeks ago
@seaneire oh, you speak hebrew? What about: "Shema Yisrael, YHWH Eloheinu, YHWH echad" - Eloheinu - God (Singular form but consisting of multiples) - "echad" - ONE = term used also in the Scriptures when 1 man + 1 woman = become 1 flesh by marriage; and also used when God made the 1st day! How? do you know how? 1 day + 1 night = 1 day ---- is that correct?
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear
Elohim = Mighty ONE
seaneire 2 days ago
@seaneire
Google: "Yahshua is Yahweh Aramaic"
seaneire 2 days ago
@seaneire ok - does the Bible say anywhere of Jesus to be Mighty God? Eternal Father?
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)
And: you don´t seem to read carefully: Trinity is the belief in only ONE God.
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear
NO YOU ARE LYING.
TRINITY IS THE BELIEF THAT 3 (THREE) "PERSONS" (MORE THAN ONE OR TWO) CALL THEMSELVES ONE GOD. THE TRINITY IS A (3) LIAR(S).
THE TRUTH IS THIS.
YAHWEH IS A SPIRIT
YAHWEH MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH - YAHSHUA (YAHWEH'S SALVATION)
YAHWEH GIVES HIS SPIRIT TO US. (TRUE BELIEVERS - NOT TRINITARIANS)
seaneire 2 days ago
@seaneire well, then you say that the Bible is a lie (have ya read it?) - It says the Father is God, it also says that the Son is God, and it also says that the Holy Spirit is God. Early christians believed it - there are aobut 18.000 comments from the 1st century onwards, and not what heretics teach you.
Jesus was Thomases God - why not yours? John 20:27-28: "Stop doubting and believe."
what did Thomas say? "Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear
SO WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT ARE 3 (THREE) PERSONS?
seaneire 2 days ago
@seaneire and what did Jesus respond??? "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
See, you should better examine the lies you are taught about the trinity and should look up encyclopedias what christians in the first century believed. not like heretics love to misquote and even say that trinity began in the 4th century.
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear
THE TRINITY WAS NOT BELIEVED UNTIL THE COUNCIL OF NICEA WHEN THE PAGAN CONSTANTINE MADE IT CHURXH DOCTRINE.
PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED IN THE TRUTH THAT GOD IS ONE HAVE BEEN KILLED PERSECUTED SINCE THOSE TIMES.
THE TRINITY IS [NOT] FOUND IN THE BIBLE.
THE WORD TRINITY IS NOT IN THE BIBLE NEITHER IS THE FALSE DOCTRINE THAT YAH IS 3 CO ETERNAL CO EQUAL BLAH BLAH BLAH
IT'S ALL MADE UP. GET A GRIP ON REALITY MY FRIEND THE TRINIOTY IS A PAGAN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE.
seaneire 2 days ago
@seaneire the trinity was believed by the apostles - since they testified what trinitarians believe, they described what is revealed in the New Testament. Again I tell you: Do research whether or not the trinity was commented on by early christians in the 1st century, 2nd etc. The council you speak of had to be made because ARIAN HERETICS came out with their own philosophies to the point that the council had to be made, the creeds to make a difference to heretics.
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear
WHERE DO THE APOSTLES EVER MENTION 3 PERSONS WHO ARE CO EQUAL AND CO ETERNAL WHO MAKE UP THE TRIUNE (FLASE) GODHEAD???
IT NEVER HAPPENED. IF YOU HAD NEVER HEARD OF A TRINITY AND READ THE WHOLE BIBLE YOU WOULD NEVER COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT GOD IS 3 PERSONS...
YOU'VE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY THOSE PRETENDING THEY ARE THE CHURCH FATHERS.
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire trinity not in the bible, so is it with the word "theocracy" - But: Did the jews have a theocracy they lived by? they DID.
catholics came in the 4th century and added their own peculiar traditions and false worshippings - trinity exists from the apostles time, honey, otherwise you say that Thomas and other apostles are liars or what? "my Lord and my God" John 20:28.
You should not believe men and their lies, turn to God and his Word and prove all things -
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear
HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING I HAVE SAID HERE?
I KNOW THAT YAHSHUA (JESUS) IS GOD.
THAT DOES NOT MAKE GOD A TRINITY.
THE SCRIPTURES SAY CLEARLY THAT GOD MANIFESTD IN THE FLESH.
THERE IS NO TALK OF A 1ST, 2ND, OR 3RD PERSON.
YAHWEH ELOHIM IS ONE.
I DON'T LISTEN TO ANY MEN (WHICH IS WHERE THE TRINITY DOCTRINE CAME FROM)
I BELIEVE IN EVERY WORD OF ELOHIM.
NOT WHAT SOME PAGAN INVENTED AND BROUGHT INTO THE CHURCH...
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire Please clarify what you are saying. so far you are saying the trinity is true yet you say its not.. yes yahweh is a spirit he is manifested in the flesh and he gives us his spirit. thats the trinity God is all 3 of them. the 3 are one essence so its 1 God.
4455315 2 days ago
@4455315
ARE YOU JOKING ME?
THERE
IS
NO
TRINITY... IF YOU TAKE THE PART ABOUT THE "TRINITY" OUT OF YOUR COMMENT THEN YOU ARE CORRECT.
THE TRINITY MAKES YAHWEH 3 (SEPERATE) PERSONS - WHICH IS A LIE.
THE TRUTH IS THAT GOD IS ONE...HE MANIFESTS IN DIFFERENT WAYS BUT HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE.
seaneire 1 day ago
THE SCRIPTURES NEVER EVER EVER SAY THAT "GOD IS 3"
OR THAT "GOD IS 3 CO-EQUAL CO ETERNAL PERSONS"
GOD IS ONE...PLEASE BELIEVE HIM.
seaneire 1 day ago
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@seaneire ? The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is completely God. He is called God (Acts 5:3-4), has a will (1 Cor. 12:11), speaks (Acts 8:29; 13:2), and knows all things (John 14:17). He is not an "active force" as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. He knows all things (1 Cor. 2:10-11).
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@seaneire OMNIPRESENCE Father: Jeremiah 23:24; 1 Kings 8:27, Son: Matthew 28:20; 18:20; John 1:48; HolyS: Psalm 139:7; OMNISCIENCE F: Psalm 147:5; 1 John 3:20; 1 Kings 8:39; S: John 16:30; 2:24-25; HS: 1 Corinthians 2:10-11; OMNIPOTENCE F: Jeremiah 32:17,27; Matthew 19:26; Luke 1:37; Psalm 135:6; S: Matthew 28:18; John 16:15; Hebrews 1:3; HS: Romans 15:19; called GOD: F: 1 Peter 1:2; Philippians 2:11; S: 2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13; John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8; HS: Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@HeavenClear
What point are you trying to make?
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire I was trying to get you to read verses from the Bible - proving that a) the trinity is a biblical not men-made doctrine. If you had read them ever, you would not believe what heretics taught you, - is this all you have to say to all these verses?
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@seaneire called ALMIGHTY: F: Genesis 17:1; S: Revelation 1:8; 22:12-13, 20; HS: Zechariah 4:6; Each described as the TRUTH: F: John 7:28; S: John 8:32,36; 14:6; Revelation 3:7; HS: John 16:13; 1 John 5:6-7; called LORD: F: Luke 1:32; 10:21; S: Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:11; HS: 2 Corinthians 3:17; ETERNITY F: Psalm 90:2; Romans 16:26; S: Hebrews 7:3; Isaiah 9:6; John 8:58; HS: Hebrews 9:14; HOLINESS F: Revelation 15:4; S: Acts 3:14; HS: Romans 1:4
really - not biblical? read t bible again
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@HeavenClear
what point are you trying to make?
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire First, strawman argumentation won't get you anywhere. You either have to argue against what Trinitarians actually believe, or it really is no argument against Trinitarianism at all. So, as Trinitarians, we believe God is One (Deut. 6:4), that is the absolute first affirmation of the Trinitarian faith -- monotheism. There has never been more than One God, and never will be more than One God.
clintjordan 1 day ago
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire Abraham knew that YHWH consists of three: Genesis 18: The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. (..)
Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
read genesis 18. or this: Mt 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," ONE NAME 4 THREE.
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@HeavenClear
hearsay
seaneire 23 hours ago
@seaneire haha, well, you wanted to see verses where the Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is God - I have given you these verses and you say hearsay?? have you read them? or do we all are here just to chat a little and to put our own opinion of what the Bible says on yt? why not examine in the light of Scriptures?
HeavenClear 23 hours ago
@HeavenClear
CORRECTION:
I never asked you to show me any verses that show that the "Holy Spirit is God" I already said days ago that "GOD IS A SPIRIT".
seaneire 22 hours ago
@HeavenClear
Please if you think my doctrine is in error please show me where I am in error...you will find that I am right.
seaneire 22 hours ago
@HeavenClear exactly do you know the name?
seaneire 23 hours ago
@HeavenClear
"Abraham knew that YHWH consists of three"
that is your extrabiblical opinion. BASED ON NOTHING.
seaneire 22 hours ago
@seaneire
THE 3 MEN WAS YAHWEH AND 2 ANGELS...
I THOUGHT EVERYONE COULD SEE THAT.
seaneire 22 hours ago
@seaneire is it important whether or not your are "right" or is it important what scriptures tell us? have you made ANY effort to check it in the scriptures? if you have no interest in what scripture tells you - then you should not comment on scriptures :).
HeavenClear 8 hours ago
@HeavenClear
every word I have said is based on scriptures.
Let Yah be true but every man and woman a liar.
seaneire 2 hours ago
@HeavenClear
More importantly what did God say in His word?
I AM ONE AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDE ME. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY OTHER.
seaneire 2 hours ago
@seaneire dear, what sense makes your theory? the Father is called God, the Son is called God (Hebrews 1:8 etc) and the Holy Ghost is called God.
Also what early christians believed long before ungodly roman-cath. church came up - proves that they knew what they were believing in. Heretic Arianism and Gnosticism said like you that this is false what is written in the Bible. so whats your point. there is only one Godhead, YHWH, all of the same substance, God by nature, not in position.
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
No, The Father isn't CALLED God....the Father IS God.
God (being one) manifested in the flesh and walked amongst us.
God (in the flesh) gave us of His Spirit.
do you dispute these facts?
seaneire 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
one quick question for you...
Who is the Holy One of Israel?
if there are 3 persons in the false god most christians worship (based on their own unserstanding/reasoning) WHICH ONE OF THOSE 3 IS THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL?
Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.
is it person 1?
person 2?
or person 3?
or is this all 3 persons?
or is only one of them holy?
seaneire 2 hours ago
@seaneire again: have you checked the verses below? does the Bible lie when saying about the Holy Spirit is God? as it says of the Son and as it says of the Father?
trinity is defined that there is only ONE God. The Father holds the 1st position, the Son the 2nd, the Holy Spirit the 3rd.
Thats based on Scripture as I have already posted the verses and also on early christians expressions / writings - follows:
HeavenClear 2 hours ago
@HeavenClear
trinity doesn't exist except in the minds of pagans so the definition is irrelevant.
seaneire 1 hour ago
@seaneire I proved you are wrong - but of course, we all have a free will. as long as you dont look it up in the scriptures Im wishing you a nice evening.
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
YOU HAVEN'T PROVEN ANYTHING.
PROVE THAT THE TRINITY EXIST USING ONLY SCRIPTURE.
I CAN EASILY PROVE THAT GOD IS ONE USING ONLY SCRIPTURES.
I DON'T CARE WHAT ANY OTHER MAN, WOMAN , OR CHILD SAYS. GOD SAYS THAT HE IS ONE AND THAT IS WHAT MATTERS.
YOU NEED TO HUMBLE YOURSELF WOMAN.
seaneire 1 hour ago
@seaneire noone could prove to you dear - because you even refuse to look it up in God´s Word. it makes no sense. since you by yourself know everything already.
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
no it's because I'm not a fool.
here since you like to quote men so much...
"It is indeed true that the name "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man." (Luther Martin. The Sermons of Martin Luther, Church Postil, 1522; III:406-421, PC Study Bible
seaneire 1 hour ago
@seaneire so, early christians (see please comments below with sources where you can research that on your own) were wrong, you are right? and the Bible is wrong, not you? nice evening though
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@seaneire "Wherefore also I praise Thee [the ever-truthful God] for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" - Epistle of the church at Smyrna Ch.14 ANTE Vol 1 p.92
Polycarp of Smyrna, a student of the Apostle John - 150 AD
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
did you see this written?
seaneire 1 hour ago
@seaneire " we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein,(..) First Apology Ch. 13 ANTE Vol 1 p.309
Justin Martyr, 150 AD
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
did you see this written? whatever any man says has no bearing when it comes to the truth of God Most High.
seaneire 1 hour ago
@seaneire "The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas ch.25
Irenaeus, student of Polycarp - 180 AD
So, only a few examples that show that early christians - even students of the Apostle JOHN expressed their belief that God is triune. - that has nothing to do with the ungodly roman-cath. church that came to existance in 4th century
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@seaneire "The connection of Father and Son, of Son and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] makes three who cohere in a dependent series. And these three are one thing; not one person." - Against Praxeas ch.25
Irenaeus, student of Polycarp - 180 AD
HeavenClear 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear irrelevant.
seaneire 1 hour ago
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@HeavenClear irrelevant.
seaneire 1 hour ago
@HeavenClear
just a reminder God is Spirit. God never has been a person, let alone 3 persons.
seaneire 1 hour ago
NO TRINTARIAN CAN ANSWER THIS HONESTLY.
seaneire 1 hour ago
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@seaneire once again: The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. He is completely God. He is called God (Acts 5:3-4), has a will (1 Cor. 12:11), speaks (Acts 8:29; 13:2), and knows all things (John 14:17). He is not an "active force" as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. He knows all things (1 Cor. 2:10-11).
once again.. you only have to open God´s Word and examine whether or not you are "right" or God´s Word. greets
HeavenClear 8 hours ago
@seaneire Deuteronomy 6:4 does not say that God is One "Person," it just says that the Lord is "One."
clintjordan 1 day ago
@clintjordan what does one mean?
seaneire 1 day ago
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@seaneire ----"what does one mean?" ur comment. my question: what does one day mean? In the Scriptures it says i.e. for the 1st day God created: 1 day + 1 night = ??? 1 day, isnt it? (echad, as I told you before). So, can you with human logic explain an eternal God? Do you only exist as body? or is there more to it?You say Yahshua is God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit . But you condemn trinity? what is YOUR point? read t bible, the verses below on F, S, HS I posted. u cant say Bible lies.
HeavenClear 1 day ago
@seaneire The entire text of Scripture attests to the distinction of Persons between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son prayed to the Father, not to Himself. The Spirit came to proclaim Christ, not Himself. The Son sits at the right hand of the Father. In the OT, YHWH speaks of another also called YHWH (Amos 4:10-11 [c.f. Genesis 19:24], Jeremiah 50:39-40, Isaiah 13:17-19, Hosea 1:6-7, Genesis 35:1, Zechariah 2:8-11).
clintjordan 1 day ago
@clintjordan you imagine that this is what the scriptures are saying to you.
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire One text in particular that attributes equality between the Father, and Son is the famous text of John 1:1. And ironically enough, this text also distinguishes between the Father, and the Word, and does not confuse them one for another.
clintjordan 1 day ago
@clintjordan
The Word is God. The scriptures are clear on this.
seaneire 1 day ago
The Word is the means by which Yah manifests.
Genesis15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying,Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield,and thy exceeding great reward.
1Sam.3:21And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh:for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
This is how Yah manifests to us...how Yah created all things
Psalms33:6By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
seaneire 1 day ago
@clintjordan
also the Son is not mentioned in John 1:1
do you disagree?
seaneire 1 day ago
@seaneire yes you are correct he is both the son and the holy spirit i know that
4455315 1 day ago
"the eternal being of God is shard by 3 co-equal, co-eternal persons"
SHOW ME ONE VERSE THAT SAYS THIS PLEASE OR STOP MAKING VIDEOS BASED ON THE TRINITY LIE.
seaneire 2 weeks ago
@seaneire it's been 2 weeks.....still waiting.
seaneire 2 days ago
@seaneire could it be that trinity false doctrine is a invention of man????
OF COURSE IT IS! WAKE UP!
seaneire 2 days ago
NONE SENSE AND NOT LOGICAL VIDEO!THE FATHER GOD AND JESUS IS JUST EQUAL BY NAME OR FAME ONLY, BUT OF COURSE NOT IN THE POSITION!! BECAUSE TRINITY IT MEANS TRI OR IS DETERMINING TREE PERSON..SO HOW COULD BE THE GOD FATHER AND JESUS AND THE ESPRIT IS EQUAL?YET JESUS SAID (JOHN 5:36) AND (JOHN 14:28) THIS VERSE STATED TO PROVE THAT TRINITY IS NOT A LOGICAL & BIBLICAL DOCTRINE!! OF COURSE JESUS IS GREATER THAN THE ESPRIT (JOHN 15:26) SO PROVING THAT (FATHER,JESUS,SPIRIT) IS NOT EQUAL IN POSITION..
MyDfdsa 1 month ago
@MyDfdsa I explain John 14:28 in one of my videos. Jesus doesn't say the Father is a greater Being than Him or anything like that. His point to His disciples was that they should rejoice because He's going BACK to the Father. He's going back to His EQUALITY (John 17:5).
Here's the link:
/watch?v=zxRsaI6YAVc
ETHANGELIST 2 weeks ago
@ETHANGELIST SO EQUALITY MEANT TO SAY TRINITY????LOL SO WHAT ABOUT SPIRIT DO REALLY EQUALITY TO JESUS & ALSO TO FATHER GOD???WOULD YOU SEND ME THE VERSE ABOUT THE SPIRIT IS EQUALITY OF JESUS AND ALSO TO FATHER GOD PLEASE..
MyDfdsa 5 days ago
@MyDfdsa Trinity does not say that Father & Son have the same position, yet that they are equal. If Jesus is the Son of God by nature - what can he be other than God by nature? You are human, arent you? your parents are human - though your father holds a greater position than you - still you are not inferior to him in nature, are you?
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:33)
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@ETHANGELIST DO YOU HAVE VERSE IN THE BIBLE THAT THE SPIRIT SATED IS A GOD...??LOL
MyDfdsa 5 days ago
@MyDfdsa "DO YOU HAVE VERSE IN THE BIBLE THAT THE SPIRIT SATED IS A GOD...??LOL"
Acts 5:3-4, the Holy Spirit is called God. 1Cor 2:10, the Spirit is omniscient and also see Job 33:4; Ps 104:30, Ps 139:7-8 for proof that He is omnipotent and omnipresent.
ETHANGELIST 2 days ago
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MyDfdsa 5 days ago
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@ETHANGELIST LOL SO WHAT ABOUT MOISES HIS ALSO A GOD(EXODU 7:1)..SO IT MEANS MOISES IS EQUALITY TO FATHER GOD AND JESUS AND ALSO SPIRIT????BRO..AS I UNDERSTAND WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE THAT JESUS AND FATHER GOD IS JUST EQUALITY BY NAME AND FAMOUS SAME LIKE MOISES....CLEARLY THEY ARE NOT EQUALITY IN POSITION !!!
MyDfdsa 5 days ago
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10:14-10:30. Tell that to JWS. According to them a created being can create the universe with all its living beings, save sinners, own the keys to death and Hades, lead legions of angels, accept worship (even the angel in Revelation refused John's worship) and physically resurrect people from the grave. A mere created being can't do all this and worshipping a created being is idolatry. Do JWs even realize how absurd they sound?
Cutie9326 1 month ago
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Cutie9326 1 month ago
Philippians 2:7 is about the doctrine of Kenosis which is obviously a Biblical doctrine...
Cutie9326 1 month ago
Sole oneness, sole family, duality and trinity theories are human restriction
of the Supreme Being of Elohe YHWH, multi-manifestational in one.
reliinfo 3 months ago
@reliinfo Okay. Prove to me using Scripture that the Trinity is false. And feel free to address the points I made in this video.
ETHANGELIST 3 months ago
@ETHANGELIST Trinity is not false but a limitation because
YHWH manifests Himself in various manifestations;
Yah showing his back to Moses is a manifestation represented in a human form
while YHWH is still Omni-present in Exodus 34.
Yehoshua Ha Mashiach: prototype for human creation before the world's creation,
Ruach (Gen 1) and Nephesh (Gen 18; body-soul form)
Malach (Gen16) : prototype for angel creation before the world's creation and as
Yah/YHWH transcending at times.
reliinfo 3 months ago
@Ethangelist People use descriptions of the Divine which are inadequate to really
express the implications of Omni-presence, Omni-potence & Omniscience as
applied by Elohe YHWH.
Three eternal separate persons in One is not necessarily biblical.
reliinfo 3 months ago
@reliinfo Okay. How do you explain John 17:5 then?
† Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. † (Jn 17:5, NASB)
Doesn't this verse prove TWO persons were together sharing the same glory WITH each other before the world was?
ETHANGELIST 3 months ago
@ETHANGELIST As i indicated YHWH manifestations were before the world was created
Yah-Father YHM-Son, Ruach, Nephesh, Malach, Sar and still it can be ALL ONE in YHWH.
YHWH is omnipresent so the manifestations are dimensional for us.
reliinfo 3 months ago
@reliinfo Do you believe Jesus is YHWH?
ETHANGELIST 3 months ago
@ETHANGELIST
YHWH 's manifestations are for us dimensional.
Yehoshuva was before the creation of the world
and was Yeshua in human form (0-33) and IS
YHM till Eternity. the question is: Is there need for
the manifestational presentations in Eternal life,
It doesn't seems to appear; 1 Co 15:24-28, Re 22:5.
In way of speaking; Eternal Elohe, Spirit, King, Glory: yes!
reliinfo 3 months ago
@reliinfo
you're right the trinity is not biblical at all.
Who are we to label the Most High? The Holy One of Israel?
the trinity is a lie from satan.
seaneire 2 weeks ago
@seaneire Yes, trinity is not biblical neither is modalism, eternal family theory or duality, YHWH is One and multi-manifestational.
reliinfo 2 weeks ago
@reliinfo you forgot the pre trib rapture theory.
seaneire 2 weeks ago
@seaneire That's true, but 4 of the 5 main rapture theories aren't biblical;
the after tribulation & pre-wrath rapture is the most biblical one.
reliinfo 2 weeks ago
@seaneire really? the trinity is NOT biblical? look at this: Genesis 18:1 "The LORD appeared to Abraham..." (..) Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried .."
So, you see, believers always understood that God is one God - of multiples.
So did early Christians - you can read this all in encyclopedias - there are about 18.000 comments of early Christians beginning in 1st century, but heretics lie about the definition of trinity - see my video"trinity"
HeavenClear 2 days ago
@HeavenClear YHWH appeared in nephesh form to Abraham in Gen 18
with 2 angels, there is no evidence of a divine triune appearance in this passage.
1 2 or 3 is limitation, the manifestations of YHWH can be counted separately
up to 8, still One YHWH and all manifestations are part of YHWH they were
not created or designed, Yeshua the human form of YHM was born unlike
the nephesh form mentioned above.
reliinfo 2 days ago
Jesus said: Before Abraham was, " I AM ". How many " I AM "s are there? There is only ONE " I AM ", that is God the Father, that is the divinity of Jesus. There is no God the Son.
TRINITY IS NOT SCRIPTURAL
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "How many " I AM "s are there? There is only ONE " I AM " "
I agree with you on this. Except the one and only "I AM" is YHWH.
"So you don't believe anymore that Jesus is God?"
I simply showed you the LXX's Isaiah 9:6. Why the overreaction? It's no biggie.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , Come on, stop joking. I just checked Isaiah 9:6 from different versions and they all speak MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE. Shall I believe your own theory? Don't be funny.
Sources: NIV,KJV,NKJV,NLT,ESV,NASB,AKJV,ASV,DOUAYRHEIMS,DARBY,ERV,WEBSTERS,etc.
Shall I deny these many sources to favor your theory??
My advise to you as ETHANGELIST: Preach the gospel, not your theory of trinity.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "I just checked Isaiah 9:6 from different versions and they all speak MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE."
Yeah, that's because they are translating the Hebrew, not the Greek Septuagint. Besides, if you checked all those many translations, you saw that Jesus is sometimes called "Father of Eternity" right? Jesus is no called God the Father, He is simply called the "Father" or "Creator" OF eternity.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, "Father of eternity", "everlasting Father", "God the Father", "Creator"---- They all mean the same thing. It speaks of the "ONE and ONLY GOD". It speaks of the divinity of JESUS.
Deut 6:4
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "It speaks of the "ONE and ONLY GOD". It speaks of the divinity of JESUS."
Well I think I would agree with you on that one. But again, you have the presupposition that the one true God is only one person. You have no right to force your presuppositions about God onto the Bible or onto His nature. Hypothetically speaking, IF YHWH is 3 persons according to the Bible, would you believe the Bible and let go of your presuppositions? Or will you never believe the Trinity at all costs?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, It is not my presupposition that One God is one person but the bible says it. The scriptures doesn't bluff you. When it says one, it means ONE, not THREE. Trinity is based on presuppositons and implications. It is not reliable. How can I believe the trinity when I can see it very clearly that it is an error, a lie, illogical, and contradictory to the scriptures. When God said I am the Lord your God, no God besides me, before me, neither after me. Does it sounds like trinity?
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias It's good that you're quoting Hebrews 1. How do you explain this verse then:
† God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. † (Hebrews 1:1-2, NASB)
God [the Father] created the world through His Son. Isn't that 2 divine persons creating the universe, therefore your doctrine is refuted?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, " God [the Father] created the world through His Son. Isn't that 2 divine persons creating the universe, therefore your doctrine is refuted?"
Please read the scriptures again and again with open heart and you will see that it does not speak of 2 divine persons. It is all in your imagination because you are brainwashed.
You are not refuting me, but you are trying to refute he scriptures.
Does God appoints God? What a queer idea.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "Please read the scriptures again and again with open heart and you will see that it does not speak of 2 divine persons. It is all in your imagination because you are brainwashed.
You are not refuting me, but you are trying to refute he scriptures."
It is clear that you have no answer for Hebrews 1:1-2. So you avoid it by calling me brainwashed. God created the world through His Son. Basic stuff. There are so many one off verses that destroy your doctrine. John 17:5 for example.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , Prove to me first that one being means three persons, and I'll answer your other nonsense question.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias You keep going on and on about how there is ONE GOD. I 100% agree with you. You keep accusing me of believing in three gods, but I don't at all. Polytheism is an abomination. You should argue against MY doctrine, rather than your own false version of my doctrine. Isaiah 44:24 is one of my favorite verses. Of course YHWH alone created all things. No problem. I don't have the presupposition. I used to believe Jesus is the Father, but Scripture showed me otherwise.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , "You should argue against MY doctrine, rather than your own false version of my doctrine."
Now by the slip of your tongue, you have admitted unaware that it is your own doctrine, and not the doctrine of the bible.
I never said that Jesus is the Father, neither the scriptures said it. But I said as the scriptures say that the Father is in Jesus. God the Father(the only God) is in Jesus. It is the divinity in Jesus.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias This was not what I was saying. Yahweh is the Jewish national name of God. Which is translated LORD in most Bibles but does not mean Lord. That is to say...when Adonay is used for God, it should be taken to mean that it is bringing out the majesty and divinity of God over all the universe. Yahweh, however, is ALWAYS the Jewish national name of God. Yahweh, NOT Yahushua is our God. Revelation 3:12. I follow Yahushua Messiah-King. You teach different Yahushua.
Danielezerable 5 months ago
@Danielezerable , ??? Did I post any comment to you? I thought was discussing with ETHANGELIST.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias Sorry, I honestly thought I was replying to this ETHANGELIST heretic as well.
Danielezerable 5 months ago
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@ETHANGELIST This was not what I was saying. Yahweh is the Jewish national name of God. Which is translated LORD in most Bibles but does not mean Lord. That is to say...when Adonay is used for God, it should be taken to mean that it is bringing out the majesty and divinity of God over all the universe. Yahweh, however, is ALWAYS the Jewish national name of God. Yahweh, NOT Yahushua is our God. Revelation 3:12. I follow Yahushua Messiah-King. You teach different Yahushua.
Danielezerable 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I AM the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth by MYSELF;" Does it sounds like trinity?
Before We continue, Can you please define to me trinity?
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "Before We continue, Can you please define to me trinity?"
Right at the beginning of the video I define the Trinity.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , You did not define trinity in your video but explain your suppposition by seemingly implication.
The Catholic have their definition of trinity: One God in 3 persons. Co equal in power, co equal in majesty, but 3 distinctly different persons.
Do you have your own version of definition?
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias I think I will end this discussion now. Clearly you don't want to discuss the truth of Scripture. Instead of an intellectual discussion, you are now resorting to ad hominem attacks against me. And you keep misrepresenting my doctrine and bringing the Roman Catholics into the discussion. They have nothing to do with my beliefs about the nature of God. If you want to continue, argue logically instead of emotionally and refrain from insulting me. I hope God blesses you and truth wins.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , I am not misrepresenting your doctrine . I am just telling you bluntly that your doctrine is not the doctrine of the bible.
Again I will say: PREACH THE GOSPEL AND NOT YOUR DOCTRINE OF TRINITY.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias Your only arguments so far have been ad hominem and contradiction. Saying the Trinity is false is one thing, but proving it using Scripture is a whole different thing. And you haven't even refuted the arguments I represented in this video. Your Jesus cannot possibly fit Paul's point in Philippines 2 and the context. Your Jesus makes Paul's whole point null and void. Without the Trinity, THERE IS NO GOSPEL. Finding the truth of the nature of God is vital to salvation.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , When I asked you to define trinity, You said let's end this discussion for fear that your definition can cause you more trouble. Now you are back again.You are truly a fickle minded like your theory of trinity whch I'm telling you bluntly that it is not scriptural.
Your argunment that "I AM" refers only to YHWH , and not God the Father, nor Jesus makes you more confused because you have now 4 Gods. I refuted you all by scriptures.
Preach the gospel , not trinity.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias And Deu 6:4 is simply confirming monotheism and declaring that YHWH is one Being, not one person. And ironically, It is actually paralleled by Paul in 1Cor 8:6. Sometimes Deu 6:4 is translated as "The LORD our God is one LORD" and yet Paul calls Jesus Christ the "one Lord", therefore calling Him the same YHWH found in Deu 6:4. And of course when Paul calls the Father the "one God", he is also confirming the Father is the same YHWH in Deu 6:4, where the word "God" is also mentioned.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, Where did you get the idea that one being is three persons? It is not in the bible, not in any documents, and it is not in common sense. Being when when it refers to human or God is the same as person.
Heb 1:3 in KJV it says of the Son as "the express image of His(God) person." In NIV it says, the exact representation of His(God) being.
If there is a trinity it should say: the express image of His 2nd person, or the express image of one of His persons.
jundurias 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST Except for the fact the Paul says we have one God the Father (that is to say Paul denies that Jesus is the one God) and one Lord Jesus Christ (that is that Yahushua Messiah-King who Satan has tricked you into believing is God is our Master).
Danielezerable 5 months ago in playlist More videos from ETHANGELIST
@Danielezerable "Except for the fact the Paul says we have one God the Father (that is to say Paul denies that Jesus is the one God) and one Lord Jesus Christ..."
So are you concluding also that Paul is denying the Father as being the one Lord? Does the Father have zero lordship? Yes or no. And isn't YHWH called the "one Lord" in Deu 6:4? Doesn't that mean Paul is calling Jesus YHWH when he calls Jesus the "one Lord"?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
" For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. " Where did you get this? So you don't believe anymore that Jesus is God? and Prince of peace? Why do you agree with this translation when they remove that Jesus is God, Prince of peace, etc? Just to prove that I am wrong? So you do not want to call Jesus your everlasting Father?
jundurias 5 months ago
3. Philippians 2:5-11 speaks of Jesus as God manifested in the flesh.(1 Tim 3:16 ).
Verse 5 speaks of Christ Jesus. Christ is the humanity of Jesus, the Savior, the one who gave His life to save the world. God cannot die( God is eternal ). Verse 9 says that God exalted Him. God does not exalt God, but God exalt man.
Who raised Jesus from the dead? God the Father! But in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise His own body from the dead. The divinity of Jesus is God the Father not God d Son.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias And also, you accuse us Trinitarians of picking a "few verses that seem to imply the Trinity", yet can you find JUST ONE verse where Jesus says "I am the Father" or of any New Testament writer calling Jesus the Father? There is none. So why believe Jesus is the Father when the Bible never ever says so?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, 1. Did I say that Jesus is the Father? No, I did not say that. What I said is "the divinity in Jesus is God the Father". These are 2 different things. You know that Jesus has 2 natures, humanity and divinity. He is both God and man. As the Christ or Messiah, He is a man,That's what He came for to redeem us though he did not lost His divinity. That's why He prays to God, That's why He calls God His Father, That's why He was born, grew, experienced pain, hunger, thirst, and died.
jundurias 5 months ago
2. I have already shown you verse that proves that the divinity in Jesus is "God the Father". There is no "God the Son" which the trinitarian call Jesus. The scripture says that God the Father raised Jesus, but in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise His body. Is this not enough for you?
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born...
And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace."
There is only one Everlasting Father, He is God the Father.
jundurias 5 months ago
2. The doctrine of the trinity was invented by the Catholic Church. Every true Christian knows that this church is anti Christ and invented many unscriptural and devilish doctrines that resulted to dark ages. Even tithing in Christianity was also invented by the Catholics.
Among the hundreds of verses that speak of one God I pick Isaiah 43:10-15, Deut 6:4-9, and Mark 12 :29 for you to consider reading and you will Find out that there is not even a slight hint of trinity or implying trinity.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "The doctrine of the trinity was invented by the Catholic Church" That is historically false. If we were to say that the council of Nicaea of 325 AD "invented" the Trinity, that council still predates Roman Catholicism by about 300 years. Man I wish Oneness people would stop using that argument, if I can even call it an argument. Besides, we have so much evidence predating 325 AD of the early church father, the spiritual children of the apostles, were also Trinitarians.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, I don't know what is council of Nicea, and what it has to do with our discussion. What I know is that the Catholic invented the trinity and Protestantism came from Catholicism through Martin Luther. He was a former Catholic priest who protest against the Catholic church because of many wrong doctrines and practices.
But hebrought with him the doctrine of trinity and tithing in Christianity. Both are not scriptural.There is no trinity, nor God the Son, nor eternal Son in the bible.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "Among the hundreds of verses that speak of one God " Yes, I know there is only one God, His name is YHWH. I'm strictly monotheist. How about you argue Scripture with me properly, instead of accusing me of joining the Catholics, and being a polytheist? How about you discuss this with me allowing the definition and the terms of the Trinity to stand?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, How can you be strictly monotheist and believe in three Gods or 3 persons in God? Are you trying to say that one equals three( 1= 3 )?
Am I not arguing with you properly? Did I tell you that you are joining the Catholics? What I said is that the Catholics invented the trinity. You are accusing me of things that I have not said. I know the fact that the Protestants separated from the Catholics.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias It is FACT that the Roman Catholics do not invent the Trinity, because Trinitarians were already around 100s of years before the first pope was even born. It is amazing that you don't know the council of Nicaea. It is only the most important and greatest church council ever convened. And why are you talking about Martin Luther and the Roman Catholics? How about we focus on what Scripture really says and what the inspired authors really believed?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, Focus on scriptures? You don't even believe the scriptures. The scriptures keep telling us that there is only one God. You keep telling us that they are three. Isa 43.11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior". Where is trinity here? I gave you only one verse, there are lots more. Give one verse that says God is trinity. You cannot because there is none.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "The scriptures keep telling us that there is only one God. You keep telling us that they are three."
I've never ever said there are 3 Gods. So stop twisting what I said. I'm saying the one Being of God, is shared by 3 persons. There is a huge difference between "being" and "person". I don't prefer to use the term "God the Son", so stop going on about that. I know there is absolutely one God, so let's move on from that. Let's discuss Scripture instead.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, So you mean that three persons is one being? Where did you get this idea? YOU ARE NOT DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES.
I AM NOT TWISTING WHAT YOU SAID. You said that three of them raised Jesus from the dead. God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And you believe those three are Gods. I am not twisting your words but it's you twisting the scriptures
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias Jesus does not say He is the Father in John 2:19. You're reading way too much into what Jesus said. Yes the Father raised Jesus from the dead, but the Son also did, and Romans 8:11 says the Holy Spirit also raised Jesus from the dead. John 2:19 does not prove Jesus is the Father at all. And in Isaiah 9:6, you are again reading your theology into the verse. Isaiah 9:6 is actually calling Jesus the "Father of Eternity". "Father" is synonymous with "creator" as Malachi 2:10 proves.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , So you mean that three Gods raised Jesus from the dead? I told you that there is no trinity. There is no God the Son, that raised Jesus from the dead. There is only ONE GOD, the FATHER. Why do you insist that there is God the Son when there is none? You believe that Jesus is both God and man. So the divinity of Jesus is God the Father because there is no God the Son. Open your heart , not your intellectuality.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "The scriptures keep telling us that there is only one God. You keep telling us that they are three."
I've never ever said there are 3 Gods. So stop twisting what I said. I'm saying the one Being of God, is shared by 3 persons. There is a huge difference between "being" and "person". I don't prefer to use the term "God the Son", so stop going on about that. I know there is absolutely one God, so let's move on from that. Let's discuss Scripture instead.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , So you mean that three persons is one being? Where did you get this idea? YOU ARE NOT DISCUSSING SCRIPTURES.
I AM NOT TWISTING WHAT YOU SAID. You said that three of them raised Jesus from the dead. God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And you believe those three are Gods. I am not twisting your words but it's you twisting the scriptures
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "How can you be strictly monotheist and believe in three Gods or 3 persons in God?"
Can't you allow for the fact that the Being of God is truly unique? Since when is any of us to insist that God exists in a particular way or that He cannot possibly be more than 1 person? God is God, and we are not. If He exists in 3 persons, who are we to question He form of existence?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , How can He exist in three persons when the scriptures say ONE GOD, ONE LORD, ONE PERSON, ONE BEING.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "How can He exist in three persons when the scriptures say ONE GOD, ONE LORD, ONE PERSON, ONE BEING."
1Cor 8:6 says, † yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. † (NASB)
Clearly this verse makes the distinction between God the Father and the Lord Jesus. They are 2 different persons in this verse, yet BOTH created all things, refuting your doctrine.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST , 1Cor 8:6- This verse teach that there is only one God the Father. I told you that is the divinity in Jesus. The scripture says Jesus Christ. That means the humanity of Jesus, the messiah, the one who died for us. Jesus Christ or Jesus is His human Name. We exist through Him because He died for us and saved us from death. " YET FOR US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER.."
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "The scripture says Jesus Christ. That means the humanity of Jesus, the messiah, the one who died for us. Jesus Christ or Jesus is His human Name. We exist through Him because He died for us and saved us from death."
That's NOT what 1Cor 8:6 says at all. It says Jesus Christ, BY whom are ALL THINGS and we EXIST through Him. You say this is the human Jesus? That is absolutely impossible. It says Jesus created ALL THINGS. And shows that Jesus and the Father are 2 divine persons. Explain
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, This verse teach us that there is only "one God, the Father."
1Cor 8:6
"yet for us there is but one God, the Father,.."
1 Cor 8:6
"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." NIV.
NIV says through whom, NASB says by whom. Now prove to me that NIV is wrong and NASB is correct.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "NIV says through whom, NASB says by whom. Now prove to me that NIV is wrong and NASB is correct."
It doesn't matter whether the word should be translated to "through" or "by". If it really says "one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came", it is still saying that the Lord Jesus CHRIST is the creator of all things. So again, if 1Cor 8:6 clearly shows the distinction between Jesus and the Father, yet both are the Creator, doesn't that fully refute your doctrine?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, Stop talking nonsense. The verse is telling you that there is only ONE GOD and you are insisting they are two. "1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father,..."
1 Tim 2:5 "For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
jundurias 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST, Stop talking nonsense. The verse is telling you that there is only ONE GOD and you are insisting they are two. "1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but ONE GOD, the Father,..."
1 Tim 2:5 "For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
I have given you several verses teaching there is only ONE GOD, while you are giving me verses which seemingly imply trinity in your understanding, but don't really teach trinity, and you call it fact. Wake up
jundurias 5 months ago
You are complicating the simple message that there is only one God. The bible simply decare that there is only one God. You don't believe and you add: "but there are 3 persons." There is not a single verse that teach trinity. You just pick few verses that SEEMS TO IMPLY TRINITY and explain it in long tedious way to fit your belief. But the bible simply declares that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. Phil 2:5-11 does not teach trinity. You are just trying hard out of scriptures that it is trinity.
jundurias 5 months ago
@jundurias "You just pick few verses that SEEMS TO IMPLY TRINITY and explain it in long tedious way to fit your belief."
Actually I let ALL OF SCRIPTURE to speak and to stand on its own. I test every doctrine against Scripture, and if Scripture refutes a particular doctrine, I must throw out that doctrine for the sake of God's Word. And I've found in my many years of being a Christian, that even if I wanted to "throw out" the Trinity, it is biblically impossible. God's Word simply teaches it.
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST It only guarantees the Trinity because you want it to do so. First off, it proves Jesus had to climb a latter of success. Also, it proves Jesus was humble on earth. Finally, it proves that God and Jesus aren't on the same level because God rose Him to that level.
Danielezerable 5 months ago
@Danielezerable You're forgetting the fact that Jesus has 2 natures, which is clearly expressed in this passage ("form of God" and "likeness of men"). Firstly, what does "form of God" mean to you, in light of the Greek word "morphe"? And why does Paul mention equality with God?
ETHANGELIST 5 months ago
@ETHANGELIST You're forgetting that all things created are in the form of God since we are also created in the very image of God. Hence, Jesus appeared not as God but in the form of God. Paul says Jesus did not claim equality with God. Stop twisting scriptures around my friend. You need to listen to Jesus before He comes back to kill you at Armageddon.
John 14:28.
It's good that you believe in Jesus but you kind of have to believe Jesus.
John 10:29.