Slavery was a world wide norm and common for most of human history well into the 19th century and only declined because some Europeans and Americans started to feel slavery was wrong starting in the 18th century. Revolutionary people tend to create worlds they themselves cannot live in. It is idiotic to dam people who lived in a different time with our morality and values. We praise people like Jefferson because they were a step in the right direction, something better than what proceeded.
@casdhn I kinda disagree. I would use one of Jefferson quotes to sum up that statement "I would rather have dangerous freedom, then safe slavery" or something along those lines.
It is fashionable to rip all the Founding Fathers for owning slaves but the fact is only some of them did and the rest hated slavery. Adams, for instance--along with Franklin, Hamilton, and Paine abhorred it. The ones who did own slaves felt very guilty about it and knew it stood in contradiction to their professed ideals. It is a blot on their characters, to be sure, but it should not obscure their other accomplishments and redeeming qualities. Perhaps we moderns should take a step back
@ws81086n Well Thomas Jefferson's idealisms are considered "extreme" by the US MSM apparently in 2011, Ron Paul is totally ignored and called an isolationist, amazing rhetoric.
@Baldwynmayhem he believed in a society of only farmers with no manufacturing no banks no commerce
while Hamilton believed in commerce manufacturing in small new england towns, like modern day suburbia, stable regulated banks, and trade.
jefferson was a southern aristocrat who loved revolution but never fought in it
Hamilton was an orphan self made immigrant who stood up for all men not just whites he increased the size government to prevent the suffering and death caused by lack of supplies
@Baldwynmayhem so we don't live in jefferson's world we live in Hamiltons the self made orphan, miltary man who always gets painted as an aristocrat while jefferson the southern aristocrat gets painted as a populist.
jefferson didnt even govern by his ideals at all. the embargo act, louisana purchase, he kept the national bank and all the financial infrastructure he made because it worked.
Hamilton and the federalist wrote the constitution maybe you should listen to their interpretation.
@ws81086n I cant believe Jefferson had slaves after writing and saying what he had, amazing really. But anyway, I personally still agree with Jefferson moreso than the watered down Tories like Adams/Hamilton.
Both great men, but Adams was right. Jefferson was a champion of the Enlightenment; Adams a more hard-minded classicist. The classical position was sounder because it took into account the limits of human reason and the natural inequality that would always exist among men. Jefferson's influence on America and the democratic tradition generally goes a long way towards explaining the presumption of people in modern societies and our more radical forms of egalitarianism.
Search “What a Way to Go. Life at the End of Empire” on youtube. The globalist agenda is set but we have to stop the New World Order. As far as left or right is concerned, there is no right or left only right or wrong. 9/11 was an inside job. Wake up and realize the economic collapse was planned. This isn't conspiracy theory, its a matter of control in the hands of a few wealthy people. Know the truth, trueworldhistory dot info
Real freedom has yet to be achieved. America's people are greatly controlled by the government. The government is in our every day lives. Perhaps crime is so prominent because of the massive control our government has over us-- it gets people to rebel. We should have a right to do with our lives whatever we see fit. It is until our actions hurt the lives of others that the Law should interfere. Tell a child it can never eat chocolate, the child will eat the chocolate. We don't grow out of that.
A dream perhaps - to be a fly on a nearby leaf to witness the birth of an idea that germinated into a nation,,,,what a chance that would be to see this moment and many others of that precious time in real life. Would we be disappointed to see what history was really like?
Jefferson claimed few successes in his presidency, even though there were several. Exploration of the West, Louisiana Purchase, maintaining neutrality during foreign wars.
However, Federalist opponent Hamilton was indeed a stellar Treasury head.
Jefferson, contrary to popular belief, was not a good President. Any success that he claimed was largely due to the work of Alexander Hamilton, and his policies that basically ended the US Navy of the day, were what let the British so easily invade during the War of 1812.
I loved the series on Adams and appreciate his role as both a president and founding father of our union, however I would LOVE to see a similarly styled miniseries centered on Thomas Jefferson, a giant among men. His political philosophy is outstanding and is reflected greatly in the founding documents of the United States. Jefferson surely merits a miniseries.
Just look back to the Soviet Union. There you'll find the perfect example of how an anti-religion government expressed its "faith" in its own people and how it turned out. :-)
@77thNYSV Thomas Jefferson was a deist not an atheist. They believed in God but not a constantly there involved in everything God. They believed everything was mechanically set in motion not constantly being changed by God. Communism however believes in no religion and puts people on the level of sub human and that you are part of the state not an individual. Thomas Jefferson believed in Man in other words.. Communism brings man down and destroys hims. Don't confuse the two.
"Through which will pour the forces of reaction" - WHAT A FUCKING VISIONARY!!! That line he spoke is soooooo on the money. I truly wish that TJ was an immortal.
does anyone know how a message could be sent to hbo that jefferson needs his own spin off? to be honest, i liked watching his scenes more than adams. dillane is the perfect jefferson, he's so good at being him. i'd love to see more focus on jefferson, about his family especially.
Amazing... Jefferson the radical free thinker continues to challenge the ethic of all ideologues of government. The founding father is questioning the validity of the Constitution itself in this scene!
I loved this miniseries, I was sad when it ended. It was so brilliant and the portrayal of Mr. Jefferson was amazing, as well as Mr. Adams and all the other character's.
thomas jefferson has arabic ancestors!! i know he looks european but alot of arabic people can pass as europian!! he taught himself arabic and has a copy of the caran in his personal library! first arabic president was him!
@JUKIO01 also when he is a hyprocrite! all he talked about was freedom of the people, yet he had slaves and never freed them when he died! he also had sex with a slave woman. he was born rich and never had to work for himself. all truth!!!
@JUKIO01 first six presidents were alll elites! 4 were rich tobacco farmers, and 2 were from the same blood, all of them were chosen by each other and not chosen by the people!!
@JUKIO01 dont believe me? look for his koran in the library of congress. the US government silences all this from the americans, to keep us dumb, like the fact that christopher columbus never stepped a foot in american soil, EVER!!
@JUKIO01 dont believe me? look for his koran in the library of congress. the US government silences all this from the americans, to keep us dumb, like the fact that christopher columbus never stepped a foot in american soil, EVER!!
Massive debt and economics is what kept Jafferson from freeing most of his slaves. Also, Sally Hemmings was three-quarters caucasian because she was the half-sister of Jefferson's deceased wife, Martha. While it is unclear if Jefferson himself slept with her, but there is DNA evidence of Jefferson family blood in her descendants. If Jefferson did have relations with Sally, he probably has romantic feelings for her, but it would not be mentioned in public (for her protection).
In a way--a most disturbing way--Jefferson's lines about past laws not binding future generations seem to foreshadow the Living, Breathing Document theory of the Constitution of today.
The irony is, Thomas would have been disgusted with the likes of Justice Ginsburg....
@RushLimborg The concept of a "living, breathing Constitution" is the "breach through which will pour the forces of reaction," I think. An objective Constitution would have preserved his revolutionary ideal of limited government and individual liberty. I certainly agree with you regarding Justice Ginsburg.
@tudssquadbuisness the reason that they spoke better English than us in our contemporary time, is because all of them are British. They still spoke "british english" and did until the early 20th century. Their vocabualry was still very refined and proper.
@tudssquadbuisness, not to be too harsh but, don't you mean "Our" founding fathers?
;)... Besides, those three spoke better English because they were written to do so for the movie- not to mention the fact that they, in very really real life, perhaps, were the three brightest minds in American history to date.
To read the discussions and debates between Jefferson and Franklin with the French Abbots over wine is good fun.
@tudssquadbuisness That is because back then they read books for entertainment. The ability to read and write back then was something normally the rich could only afford. To speak the way he does, means he came from a very wealthy family, which he did.
@mrceebees14 I don't think they were all that rich. I'm reading his biography and his father had to sell 10 acres of land to send him to law school. And he was the only one of his brothers that got to go to college. He absolutely loved to read and after law school he had a standing order at the book store for every new law book that came in.
@egrewing74 I didn't say Adams was rich, I gave an example of how it was back then if you could read and write. Education was not public, those institutions were treated like private businesses. The poor could not afford to go and the rich had their own means of education.
There are of course those exception to the rules, Adams came from a poor family, but was adamant about learning and like you said, he loved the law.
Let's not forget the other error made in the writing of this classic debate as it was born between the two. Adams calls both Massachusetts as well as Virginia "our own States"- which they were NOT, nor are they NOW. Both are COMMONWEALTHS. Matter of fact, Adams liked the idea so much he cribbed it from Virginia and APPLIED IT HIMSELF when helping to write "his own STATE'S" constitution, IN WHICH it declares itself as a commonwealth.
"And you display a ,dangerous, level of faith in your fellow man Mr. Jefferson" Adams.
I would rather put my faith in man(gods creation) more than laws and government(mans creation). I understand Adam's worries and that is one paradox that disturbs me today. How to create a totally free people without the need for laws and government. If anyone figures that out let me know. lol
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity.”—John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813--John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1856), Vol. X, pp. 45-46
Next time you cult worshippers of the president want to discuss "getting back to the way the Founders meant things to be" think about what you are saying.
Women get no rights. black/mixed race or "savage" men, as they called N Am peoples either be slave, live somewhere else or be extirminated (Jeffersons words).
Yes, THOSE were just some of their values; practicing religious men who wouldnt even let blacks in thier churches, unless they were building or cleaning it.
"if we are ever constrained to lift the hatchet, against any tribe, we will never lay it down until that tribe is extirminated or driven beyond the Mississippi"
Jefferson then says
"In war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy all of them" Aug 28, 1807 to Sec of War Henry Dearborn
If ANY German in WW2 said that , we would all know about it. You people have no clue what kind of man Jefferson was, a racist who advocated the Genocide of NA peoples and practised slavery - "hero" in the US
A cult worship video dedicated to 1) a slave owner 2) a man who killed NA peoples.
"freedom and liberty' by a man who owned hundreds of slaves and hunted down the runaways!
"All men are created equal" except "merciless Indian savages" as Jefferson calls NA peoples in the Declaration of Indep. But Americans cant read that far down...
Emperor worship was of the Caesars. Now u do it to ur presidents..Kim Il-Song would be proud. Do u heil ur "dear leader" Jefferson from Ol Viginny?
No, Jefferson did not want to end slavery in the Dec of Indep. In the 1st Original Draft he CLAIMED the King of England forced slavery on the Americans who resisted it.
One problem. It was so blatantly false that the Congress decided to remove that part. Jefferson & those men weren't opposed to slavery at all, which is why they OWNED slaves.
Jefferson included the part to end slavery but it was denied because of opposition to the idea by some some states. He was against slavery but saw no way to end it quickly.
And while Jefferson owned slaves he freed many of them.
That's a right load of rubbish. Jefferson was not opposed to salvery. There is 0 evidence that supports ur claim.
The man owned slaves all his life, and made his fortune from them. If he had been opposed to slavery for even one day, he never would have slaves. Peroid.
Second, he would not have raped his slaves either. Or do Sally Hemings descendants mean nothing? Slavery, rape & Gemocide of the N Am peoples. He's no better than a nazi, and ur an apologist.
Please stop embarrassing yourself and read a damn history book.
Jefferson supported the legislation to ban slave-trade in Virginia and when in office tried to ban slavery in the western territories.
By the way Jefferson couldn't free his slaves since that was outlawed by the constitution of Virginia and in fact he died in debt so your argument of "his fortune" is even more ignorance.
@Wraith23 I HATE how people rake Jefferson over the coals. Jefferson does appear hypocritical in his views on slavery, but no one ever looks at it through the perspective of the 18th century. He was considered radical on his abolitionist views as a Virginia planter and tried more times than anyone to abolish slavery in the Virginia House of Burgesses.
@Wraith23 The slave trade ended in 1807? England did not abolish it until 1834, the United States until 1863, ratified and put into law as the 13th amendment in 1865.
@Wraith23 yes the slaveholder gets credit for ending the slave trade because the constitution mandated it. I suppose you also hate Alexander Hamilton a man who hated slavery and said that a free educated black had the same average natural ability as a free educated white man. Jefferson meanwhile had doubts that they possessed this ability.
just because he was president do not mean he deserves frankly any credit for that clause.
Jefferson's stance on black men's intelligence hates slavery too, but the economic stability of the South and his massive debt (millions by today's standard) prohibited him from freeing his.
Mind you I believe slavery and claiming any man is less intelligent that the other is grossly wrong.
No i agree with you, but to say jefferson was the main guy behind ending the slave trade 1807 is incorrect.
I agree that he hated slavery look at his home he would never have to see his great shame. it was his fatal flaw, reminds us that he was human.
my main thing with jefferson is that he should have left economic details to others and focused on philosphy. it was like walt disney trying to do accounting. he was a dreamer and a visionary and very intelligent not an economist.
@karritto and yes i do believe at that point stability was more necessary, because a) they were an example to the rest of the world that a republic could work
and b) if they would have fought eachother some states called for forgien aid, and many states would become subjects to either the french or british empires
Many slave owners supported ending the slave trade. It wasn't needed. But they weren't against slavery. You're confusing the 2. You also don't discuss 2 reasons WHY they wanted to end slave trade: not in their economic interest & fear of slave insurrection (Vessey Denmark etc).
Slave owners didn't want slavery in Nest Territory for same reasons, not because of abolition. That's what you can read in not only history books, but in their own writings
You are contradicting yourself again, when saying he was a "racist" and that he "raped" Sally Hemings. Which one is it? did he love her enough to have children with her or did he hated the race?
Your childish comparison with nazism was very funny especially considering Jefferson work on human liberty.
You don't know the definition of Genocide or the most basic of facts. Native Americans were sold on Wall St as slaves & were literal slaves in Mass & other places. They were virtual slaves economically as a direct result of Jefferson's ethnocide policies & "civilising" them.
Jefferson in 1807 - same yr discusses war preparations to kill Natives in the Northwest Territory. Hitler directly said he took inspiration from Americans
I never sais Africans were from the American continent.
"You don't know the definition of Genocide or the most basic of facts."
At least I can make informed arguments without repeating in every post the same basic fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.
"Native Americans were sold on Wall St as slaves & were literal slaves in Mass & other places. They were virtual slaves economically as a direct result of Jefferson's ethnocide policies & "civilising" them.
False
"Hitler directly said he took inspiration from Americans"
Hitler did copy the US Genocide fo the Native American tribes:
John Toland, Adolf Hitler, 1976.p. 702 "Hitler's concept of concentration camps ... genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history...He admired the camps for...ndians in the wild West; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination -- by starvation and uneven combat -- of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity.
Joachim Fest, Hitler, 1973, p. 214 Hitler's "continental war of conquest" was modeled "with explicit reference to the United States"
Genocide and the Modern Age: Etiology and Case Studies of Mass Death "Hitler saw the settlement of the New World and the concomitant elimination of North America's Indian population by white European settlers as a model to be followed by Germany on the European continent"
Your idea that this is "absurd" reveals you deny the facts
I suppose you also consider that the NAZI party followed the peace and order of the ancient Indus Civilization, after all Hitler was inspider by their swastikas.
As to Native American slaves being sold on Wall St - that's "African slaves" - my typo. The Dutch forced them to build Wall St after they murdered a tribe in NJ (hence the need for a wall), then they built Broadway, the fort, the dock. The English continued slavery there and sold Africans at the "slave market" which is today Wall St & Water St.
The English did make some of the tribes their slaves - NY & Mass like w/ the Pequots in 1673 & other tribes. So did Columbus
And as he was writing the Dec of Independence, what was Jefferson doing?
Jefferson was trying to hunt down the 20 runaway slaves who ran away from his plantation to join the British and fight for thier freedom.
Same time. Same man. Same plantation owner. This "abolitionist" was so quick to go after those slaves. How can you be Against something and ado that thing.
Let's see. Ur against drunkenss. But u drink. Words here mean not a damn thing. Actions count mate.
Jefferson was the JFK and MLK of his day. Hating him for being a slave owner then is like hating someone today for owning a car. Slavery was a left over trait from Europe. It was common. Today looking back it is wrong. But it was very profitable and common then. If these men were so evil and wrong why is it they created a nation and laws which gave us freedom and equality.
JFK - another criminal who launched ilegal war in Cuba, Vietnam and got a lot of innocent people killed. He was no Civil Rights activist, but a politican who supported crimes of aggression & is credited w/ beginng the Vietnam War. What Vietmanese rights?
MLK? You compare Jefferson to him? MLK was adamately opposed to Vietnam War, racial descrimination. Jefferson advocated war & fought Nat ive Americans for land. He was a big racist & wrote that blacks were inferior in Notes on VA.
JFK wanted to end the Vietnam war. Im not sure how you consider JFK a pro war president. He did all he could to avoid war. Many would say he was killed for it. I suppose you would say Bobby Kennedy was racist and pro war too. And Jefferson never wanted war. He wanted independence. When Britain said no, then war was the only choice. Calling him racist is laughable. Who wasnt racist? It was the 1700s.
Based on Oliver Stone's movie? JFK began the war & had NO intention of ending it. That is just false, & Chomsky's book "rethinking Camelot" reviews the documentary evidence.
I didn't say RFK was racist & I could care less; but he ran the terrorist war against Cuba, and that's a fact. These reckless men brought the woprld close to a nuclear war, & in 02' it was revealed just how close we came to it.
Read Jefferson's Aug 28, 1807 letter to Henry Dearborn "we shall kill all"
Ha! You sir are really entertaining. I cant say this any other way. JFK wanted to end the war in Vietnam. Chomsky? Ha. Well then I guess you're right. Cause he knows.LOL I suggest you look at this further.
If you seriously want to discuss this, then send me a private message, as this place is just too small.
I don't need to refer to Chomsky on JFK,. And I'd be careful about repeating the scapling argument. Rmember who was killling whom and why. One had land, and one wanted it. Native Americnas wee not running around killing people; that was the Europeans and Americans.
I don't think he was an exception. He was like other slave owners.
Jefferson in that 1807 letter - among other places - orders the Sec of War to make preparations to fight the Prophet (Tecumseh's brother) and uses "savages" term. He was also a supporter of ethnocide & Genocide. I don't mince words. Jefferson in his own book "Notes on Virginia" says blacks were inferior, and he had 100's of slaves. That's not racist? Then what is?
Anyway, what's important is what he did, not his racism per se. Genocide & slavery are pretty bad things, no?
@Jononutoob I can't message you because of your "friend lock"; if you want I can send you well respected sources like the Library of Congress etc on how I can say these things.
Jefferson owned slaves. YES. Back then that was like owning a car today. It was a social norm at the time so get over it. Everybody had them. Now in terms of Jefferson wanting to murder natives. I can provide dozens of Jefferson's writings which prove different. Jefferson worked hard to bring peace. But when natives scalp American women and children Jefferson became upset. He then responded. You make it seem like he went out of his way to own slaves and kill natives. Look it up.
@Jononutoob well, that's not enitrely true. Only the rich southerners could afford slaves and needed them for their large plantations. however, Since Jefferson was , in fact , a planter, it makes sense that had them. Most of the South was morally opposed to slavery, Hence why the called it "our curious institution" or as Jefferson called it" a necessary evil". I completely agree with you, Jefferson is by far my favorite founding father I just wanted to clarify on that common misconception.
@handsofstone21 Slaves built the white house, which isnt in southern US. Slaves were everywhere, southern plantation owners just owned alot more of them. Perhaps my comment can be interpreted as slaves were equally existent throughout the colonies. And you are right, many more slaves were south. But as I made a mistake so did you, "only the rich southerners could afford slaves" is not correct either. As slaves were commonly sold in the northern colonies and often stayed there.
@jxsilicon9 Oh please. Dramatics and emotion are no place for honest discussion of time periods. I hate the idea of slavery, but as a white man I cant say if I was born in that time if I would have had slaves or not. We are only what our surroundings make us. Slavery was common all over the world for thousands of years. It is not the same as putting jews in oven and burning them alive.
@jxsilicon9 Cars are norms for us. We use them to make our lives easier. We look at them as objects. In that sense yes slaves can be compared to cars of today. There are far better examples out there. I am simply saying that slavery was a common aspect of life back then. Many had slaves, some treated them very badly, a few treated them well. I would consider the cruel treatment of slaves to be far more sickening than slavery itself. And why the jews? Most peoples were slaves at some point.
Are you so desperate to have a semi-logical argument that you are inventing facts now?
Jefferson owned a plantation and slaves because thats was the socially accepted institution then, an institution inherited from the british, but even though he possessed slaves he made every action possible for us to consider him an "abolitionist".
i think i'm gonna write in thomas jeffersons name in the next presidential election, he could govern better from the grave than the sorry excuses for candidates we have today
The United States as a government and as a working entity for the benefit of its people is and has been a great experiment. It is an experiment that is ongoing and its strength being strengthened in the furnace of of a Republic and perfected in a peoples democracy. It is not a perfect state of government but with all its faults its dam well near it!
Imo, this scene is the most important scene in the series. It outlines the next evolutionary state of "free" governance. But, it will not happen for a long while for a few reasons.
This mini-series made me feel proud to be British, quite surprisingly. It was because the colonists thought their inherent rights as freeborn Britons were being denied that they felt the need for revolution.
I think this scene, more than anything else, establishes the key difference between Libertarians (Jefferson) and Conservatives (Adams).
I could just see this kind of conversation taking place between Ron Paul/Bob Barr (Jefferson), Mitt Romney/Sarah Palin/Patrick J Buchanan (Adams) and Ronald Reagan (Franklin).
I find it offensive as a REAL patriot that you lump the founders of this republic with such a rapacious and repugnant sort that places party / ideology over liberty. Those losers you hold in such high esteem are puppets to their banking masters. Jefferson was describing something beyond "libertarianism" and whatever "ism" you may be fond of.
@biped19 While I agree with you, labeling Ron Paul as a puppet to banks is an insult to his character as he wants to destroy the most powerful bank in the world, and despises it with the same fire that Thomas Jefferson had for the Federalist ideas of his time.
@TheGreatPrince Me too! I'd watch the "HBO's George Washington (played by the same actor of course)" and i'd so watch a "HBO's Thomas Jefferson" played by stephen dillane of course
It's funny how John Adams describes Jefferson here as a "walking contradiction". Jefferson was very vocal in his opposition to slavery--and yet he owned slaves himself. To his credit, Tom treated his slaves well, more like servants, but still....
@PseudoSenator I love this series too. I guess it's suppose to be an insect flying around, but it totally sounds like Franklin blew some lightning out of his Arse.
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. - Thomas Jefferson
@moviemakerHiD2 Although I agree with premise of the statement, its important to advance society as well. When TJefferson made those comments most of the population lived on farms in sparsely populated areas. There were a lot of drifters and groups of drifters looking to squat on land and settle. We didn't have modern police force and the same laws. Being armed was essential in maintaining a balance. Although I support the right to own a gun.
@xyz321123 I agree with you that it was a sparsely populated society, but Jefferson was aware of this and he did remark on the difference between different societies. He warned that "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe". He sensed the inevitability of corruption in cosmopolitan society.
@xyz321123 The issue is whether the the inception of the Second Amendment, at the time of its adoption, can be incorporated by the limitations of a fundamental principle within today's society. The principle is self-preservation, an essential element of Liberty. Jefferson's statement, however, is still relevant. Laws only inhibit the rights of those who intend to purchase guns legally, but those who wish to commit a crime usually obtain guns by other means. A gun does not preclude intent.
I believe that our 'founding fathers' were indeed brilliant, but at the time they weren't as compromised by outside influences as our lawmakers are now. No doubt there are some very brilliant men in our government at the moment, but most seem restrained against doing what they may know is right for America. If we were to try to build a nation with the foundations of government we have today in the same way our founding fathers did with their foundations it simply couldn't be done.
Lawmakers today are to into their careers, their investments, the more money they can get, and so on than they do about creating a free and equal society. But remember that even back then there were obstacles and outside influences that prevented a true classically liberal nation. After all the constitution only really guaranteed rights to rich white men to the exclusion of women, non-whites, and poor whites. Slavery was still legal and no good safeguards were put in place to stop big government
No, not Ron Paul. Even Jefferson was more of a hawk than Ron Paul. Ron Paul would NOT have sent the marines to Tripoli to deal with the pirates, like Jefferson did--Ron, bless his heart, would have made a speech about how our "imperialist" trade with Europe caused the pirated to attack--and would have recalled all our merchant ships.
I think Ron would've issued letters of Marque and Reprisal, and put a bounty on the pirates head. Let private citizens protect their property and trade routes however they want, without getting the national military involved.
I wish jefferson was a man who spoke more, he may have covinced some of fellow revolutionaries to support the idea of, shall I say, "To have more faith in humanity"
Indeed, there were many errors in our constitution that he could have prevented.....which is why we live in a modern America devoid of fundamental personal freedoms. For one there should have been a clear law in the constitution stating that rights can never be taken away no matter what, and that all people are free to do what they want as long as they do not violate the rights of others. Now a days it's considered constitutional to take away the right to ingest what one wants for instance.
That opening shot is magnificent. The contrast between the lounging Franklin and stodgy Adams, the beautiful sky, the topiary and statue behind them.
choochoo808 1 week ago
Slavery was a world wide norm and common for most of human history well into the 19th century and only declined because some Europeans and Americans started to feel slavery was wrong starting in the 18th century. Revolutionary people tend to create worlds they themselves cannot live in. It is idiotic to dam people who lived in a different time with our morality and values. We praise people like Jefferson because they were a step in the right direction, something better than what proceeded.
kepler1000 2 months ago
Comment removed
asiaqueen4ever 2 months ago
@casdhn I kinda disagree. I would use one of Jefferson quotes to sum up that statement "I would rather have dangerous freedom, then safe slavery" or something along those lines.
taxidrivernwo 2 months ago
and consider whether or not some abominable moral practices exist in our time that later generations will correctly censure us for. Abortion, anyone?
ws81086n 3 months ago
It is fashionable to rip all the Founding Fathers for owning slaves but the fact is only some of them did and the rest hated slavery. Adams, for instance--along with Franklin, Hamilton, and Paine abhorred it. The ones who did own slaves felt very guilty about it and knew it stood in contradiction to their professed ideals. It is a blot on their characters, to be sure, but it should not obscure their other accomplishments and redeeming qualities. Perhaps we moderns should take a step back
ws81086n 3 months ago 11
@ws81086n Well Thomas Jefferson's idealisms are considered "extreme" by the US MSM apparently in 2011, Ron Paul is totally ignored and called an isolationist, amazing rhetoric.
Baldwynmayhem 1 month ago
@Baldwynmayhem he believed in a society of only farmers with no manufacturing no banks no commerce
while Hamilton believed in commerce manufacturing in small new england towns, like modern day suburbia, stable regulated banks, and trade.
jefferson was a southern aristocrat who loved revolution but never fought in it
Hamilton was an orphan self made immigrant who stood up for all men not just whites he increased the size government to prevent the suffering and death caused by lack of supplies
sfafasfasfsa 3 weeks ago
@Baldwynmayhem so we don't live in jefferson's world we live in Hamiltons the self made orphan, miltary man who always gets painted as an aristocrat while jefferson the southern aristocrat gets painted as a populist.
jefferson didnt even govern by his ideals at all. the embargo act, louisana purchase, he kept the national bank and all the financial infrastructure he made because it worked.
Hamilton and the federalist wrote the constitution maybe you should listen to their interpretation.
sfafasfasfsa 3 weeks ago
@ws81086n I cant believe Jefferson had slaves after writing and saying what he had, amazing really. But anyway, I personally still agree with Jefferson moreso than the watered down Tories like Adams/Hamilton.
Baldwynmayhem 5 days ago
Both great men, but Adams was right. Jefferson was a champion of the Enlightenment; Adams a more hard-minded classicist. The classical position was sounder because it took into account the limits of human reason and the natural inequality that would always exist among men. Jefferson's influence on America and the democratic tradition generally goes a long way towards explaining the presumption of people in modern societies and our more radical forms of egalitarianism.
ws81086n 3 months ago
the english language is beautiful if spoken correctly
xjustin523x 5 months ago
Jefferson is going to be a great Stannis Baratheon! GOT for the win!
TheNorthernSun 6 months ago 5
This has been flagged as spam show
Search “What a Way to Go. Life at the End of Empire” on youtube. The globalist agenda is set but we have to stop the New World Order. As far as left or right is concerned, there is no right or left only right or wrong. 9/11 was an inside job. Wake up and realize the economic collapse was planned. This isn't conspiracy theory, its a matter of control in the hands of a few wealthy people. Know the truth, trueworldhistory dot info
ohkeepa2012 7 months ago
"One Generation Cannot bind another"
Crap, Jefferson would have been run out of the country had he said those words to today's congress.
DSVII 7 months ago 2
(One Free Nation (((Not))) Under God)
MagicTellaVision 7 months ago
Real freedom has yet to be achieved. America's people are greatly controlled by the government. The government is in our every day lives. Perhaps crime is so prominent because of the massive control our government has over us-- it gets people to rebel. We should have a right to do with our lives whatever we see fit. It is until our actions hurt the lives of others that the Law should interfere. Tell a child it can never eat chocolate, the child will eat the chocolate. We don't grow out of that.
LoquaciousInkSlinger 7 months ago
Ron Paul is the Thomas Jefferson of our day. I hope others can see that. Great HBO special. Ron Paul 2012!!!
MrDtown15 7 months ago
A dream perhaps - to be a fly on a nearby leaf to witness the birth of an idea that germinated into a nation,,,,what a chance that would be to see this moment and many others of that precious time in real life. Would we be disappointed to see what history was really like?
divisioneight 8 months ago
john adams was an idiot ultimately. Never was a fan of his ideas.James madison and Jefferson were the real brains for liberty
Mathew1985AZ 8 months ago
BTW, Ron Paul is known as Today's Thomas Jefferson!
Ron Paul 2012
Leftovervictim1991 8 months ago
(A)NARCHY is the only form of Freedom.
Leftovervictim1991 8 months ago
@Leftovervictim1991 freedom is a perspective of lines drawn with guns and blood and signing papers which end up being used as toilet paper.
Mathew1985AZ 8 months ago
Jefferson claimed few successes in his presidency, even though there were several. Exploration of the West, Louisiana Purchase, maintaining neutrality during foreign wars.
However, Federalist opponent Hamilton was indeed a stellar Treasury head.
SSArcher11 8 months ago
@SSArcher11 a stellar traitor to individual liberty as well.
Mathew1985AZ 8 months ago
Jefferson, contrary to popular belief, was not a good President. Any success that he claimed was largely due to the work of Alexander Hamilton, and his policies that basically ended the US Navy of the day, were what let the British so easily invade during the War of 1812.
YNot1989 8 months ago
@YNot1989 Hamilton was a proponent of the Federal institutions that rape this country today. Congratulations.
PoetsLight 8 months ago
@PoetsLight hamilton was a douche bag.
Mathew1985AZ 8 months ago
@YNot1989 the british invaded because we invaded british canada first you dimwit.
Mathew1985AZ 8 months ago
@Mathew1985AZ
Doesn't change the fact that the Jeffersonian idealistic policies made that ill conceived war into the cluster fuck that it became.
YNot1989 8 months ago
lol at 2:02
sonnenlicht87 8 months ago
Thomas Jefferson
Hannanstl 8 months ago
I loved the series on Adams and appreciate his role as both a president and founding father of our union, however I would LOVE to see a similarly styled miniseries centered on Thomas Jefferson, a giant among men. His political philosophy is outstanding and is reflected greatly in the founding documents of the United States. Jefferson surely merits a miniseries.
RJhasFLOW 9 months ago 3
Jefferson was an absolutely great thinker and philosopher. His words are timeless
tjohn1986 9 months ago
Maybe if we used our faith ON our fellow man instread of invisible sky daddies and their virgin mothers... we would be in a better boat.
ORACLE063 11 months ago
@ORACLE063
Just look back to the Soviet Union. There you'll find the perfect example of how an anti-religion government expressed its "faith" in its own people and how it turned out. :-)
77thNYSV 11 months ago
@77thNYSV
I'm starting to wonder if your devestating post didn't drive your target to Church.
ivlfounder 10 months ago
@77thNYSV Thomas Jefferson was a deist not an atheist. They believed in God but not a constantly there involved in everything God. They believed everything was mechanically set in motion not constantly being changed by God. Communism however believes in no religion and puts people on the level of sub human and that you are part of the state not an individual. Thomas Jefferson believed in Man in other words.. Communism brings man down and destroys hims. Don't confuse the two.
jspecaspec23 9 months ago
"Through which will pour the forces of reaction" - WHAT A FUCKING VISIONARY!!! That line he spoke is soooooo on the money. I truly wish that TJ was an immortal.
ORACLE063 11 months ago
does anyone know how a message could be sent to hbo that jefferson needs his own spin off? to be honest, i liked watching his scenes more than adams. dillane is the perfect jefferson, he's so good at being him. i'd love to see more focus on jefferson, about his family especially.
xCherrymistx 11 months ago 3
Amazing... Jefferson the radical free thinker continues to challenge the ethic of all ideologues of government. The founding father is questioning the validity of the Constitution itself in this scene!
mistax2k 11 months ago
@mistax2k The Constitution undoes itself.
wind0wninja 11 months ago
Adams ain't wrong.
Fropals1 11 months ago
I loved this miniseries, I was sad when it ended. It was so brilliant and the portrayal of Mr. Jefferson was amazing, as well as Mr. Adams and all the other character's.
Dawsonb1 1 year ago
That's generational sovereignty he was talking about, right?
Man I love their Thomas Jefferson, he's spot on.
OhNoesItsSydney 1 year ago
I love how accurately this series portrayed Jefferson; there was no bias as far as I could tell.
ErikMartin81 1 year ago 3
1:06
GelandnaleG 1 year ago
John Adams Smoking Pot= Priceless!
CMAZZONI 1 year ago
thomas jefferson has arabic ancestors!! i know he looks european but alot of arabic people can pass as europian!! he taught himself arabic and has a copy of the caran in his personal library! first arabic president was him!
JUKIO01 1 year ago
@JUKIO01 also when he is a hyprocrite! all he talked about was freedom of the people, yet he had slaves and never freed them when he died! he also had sex with a slave woman. he was born rich and never had to work for himself. all truth!!!
JUKIO01 1 year ago
@JUKIO01 first six presidents were alll elites! 4 were rich tobacco farmers, and 2 were from the same blood, all of them were chosen by each other and not chosen by the people!!
JUKIO01 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JUKIO01 dont believe me? look for his koran in the library of congress. the US government silences all this from the americans, to keep us dumb, like the fact that christopher columbus never stepped a foot in american soil, EVER!!
JUKIO01 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JUKIO01 dont believe me? look for his koran in the library of congress. the US government silences all this from the americans, to keep us dumb, like the fact that christopher columbus never stepped a foot in american soil, EVER!!
JUKIO01 1 year ago
@JUKIO01
Massive debt and economics is what kept Jafferson from freeing most of his slaves. Also, Sally Hemmings was three-quarters caucasian because she was the half-sister of Jefferson's deceased wife, Martha. While it is unclear if Jefferson himself slept with her, but there is DNA evidence of Jefferson family blood in her descendants. If Jefferson did have relations with Sally, he probably has romantic feelings for her, but it would not be mentioned in public (for her protection).
karritto 4 months ago
@JUKIO01
Partially Arabic... because he wrote his own version of the Bible, not necessarily all 1,000+ Pages, just his own simplified version
Iceman5164 1 year ago
In a way--a most disturbing way--Jefferson's lines about past laws not binding future generations seem to foreshadow the Living, Breathing Document theory of the Constitution of today.
The irony is, Thomas would have been disgusted with the likes of Justice Ginsburg....
RushLimborg 1 year ago
@RushLimborg The concept of a "living, breathing Constitution" is the "breach through which will pour the forces of reaction," I think. An objective Constitution would have preserved his revolutionary ideal of limited government and individual liberty. I certainly agree with you regarding Justice Ginsburg.
ErikMartin81 1 year ago
youtube.com/watch?v=lyIa9Y_KwNA
noyouaintgettingit 1 year ago
@tudssquadbuisness the reason that they spoke better English than us in our contemporary time, is because all of them are British. They still spoke "british english" and did until the early 20th century. Their vocabualry was still very refined and proper.
Irishrose2966 1 year ago 2
Comment removed
tudssquadbuisness 1 year ago 15
@tudssquadbuisness, not to be too harsh but, don't you mean "Our" founding fathers?
;)... Besides, those three spoke better English because they were written to do so for the movie- not to mention the fact that they, in very really real life, perhaps, were the three brightest minds in American history to date.
To read the discussions and debates between Jefferson and Franklin with the French Abbots over wine is good fun.
ChipDWood 1 year ago 2
@ChipDWood You're right. My bad.
tudssquadbuisness 1 year ago
@tudssquadbuisness i hate the words founding fathers, they didnt really find america, it was already there. they should be called "framers" of amerca
JUKIO01 1 year ago
@JUKIO01 it's not founding as in "finding",
it's founding as in "foundation".
they layed the foundation of our country's principles.
baezalejandro 1 year ago
@baezalejandro they didnt find the country, they are the ones that framed the country
JUKIO01 1 year ago
@JUKIO01 i thought i established that already... 0.o
it's like calling JFK the "founder" of the Peace Corps. He CREATED it.
i don't know where u keep getting "find" from...
baezalejandro 1 year ago
@tudssquadbuisness the answer to that is government schools.
Doublicon 8 months ago
@tudssquadbuisness That is because back then they read books for entertainment. The ability to read and write back then was something normally the rich could only afford. To speak the way he does, means he came from a very wealthy family, which he did.
mrceebees14 7 months ago
@mrceebees14 I don't think they were all that rich. I'm reading his biography and his father had to sell 10 acres of land to send him to law school. And he was the only one of his brothers that got to go to college. He absolutely loved to read and after law school he had a standing order at the book store for every new law book that came in.
egrewing74 6 months ago
@egrewing74 I didn't say Adams was rich, I gave an example of how it was back then if you could read and write. Education was not public, those institutions were treated like private businesses. The poor could not afford to go and the rich had their own means of education.
There are of course those exception to the rules, Adams came from a poor family, but was adamant about learning and like you said, he loved the law.
mrceebees14 6 months ago
@tudssquadbuisness Indeed, I found myself thinking the same thing, it's really beautiful when you can express yourself like that.
mrceebees14 6 months ago
@tudssquadbuisness *Our
"You sir, are a walking contradiction"
LordSuperCow 5 months ago
@LordSuperCow Someone already pointed that out and I know I misused the word. To be honest I forgot about it.
tudssquadbuisness 5 months ago
@tudssquadbuisness
Everyone spoke that way. Have not you read older literature?
KSmoothSaxG 4 months ago
Let's not forget the other error made in the writing of this classic debate as it was born between the two. Adams calls both Massachusetts as well as Virginia "our own States"- which they were NOT, nor are they NOW. Both are COMMONWEALTHS. Matter of fact, Adams liked the idea so much he cribbed it from Virginia and APPLIED IT HIMSELF when helping to write "his own STATE'S" constitution, IN WHICH it declares itself as a commonwealth.
ChipDWood 1 year ago
"And you display a ,dangerous, level of faith in your fellow man Mr. Jefferson" Adams.
I would rather put my faith in man(gods creation) more than laws and government(mans creation). I understand Adam's worries and that is one paradox that disturbs me today. How to create a totally free people without the need for laws and government. If anyone figures that out let me know. lol
Jononutoob 1 year ago
I'm with jefferson here.
libertylives2 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity.”—John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813--John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1856), Vol. X, pp. 45-46
timcp1 1 year ago
Next time you cult worshippers of the president want to discuss "getting back to the way the Founders meant things to be" think about what you are saying.
Women get no rights. black/mixed race or "savage" men, as they called N Am peoples either be slave, live somewhere else or be extirminated (Jeffersons words).
Yes, THOSE were just some of their values; practicing religious men who wouldnt even let blacks in thier churches, unless they were building or cleaning it.
Great values if ur a nazi
EBanonymous 1 year ago
"if we are ever constrained to lift the hatchet, against any tribe, we will never lay it down until that tribe is extirminated or driven beyond the Mississippi"
Jefferson then says
"In war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy all of them" Aug 28, 1807 to Sec of War Henry Dearborn
If ANY German in WW2 said that , we would all know about it. You people have no clue what kind of man Jefferson was, a racist who advocated the Genocide of NA peoples and practised slavery - "hero" in the US
EBanonymous 1 year ago
A cult worship video dedicated to 1) a slave owner 2) a man who killed NA peoples.
"freedom and liberty' by a man who owned hundreds of slaves and hunted down the runaways!
"All men are created equal" except "merciless Indian savages" as Jefferson calls NA peoples in the Declaration of Indep. But Americans cant read that far down...
Emperor worship was of the Caesars. Now u do it to ur presidents..Kim Il-Song would be proud. Do u heil ur "dear leader" Jefferson from Ol Viginny?
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
You do know that Jefferson wanted to include the end of slavery in the declaration of independence, dont you?
Wraith23 1 year ago
@Wraith23
No, Jefferson did not want to end slavery in the Dec of Indep. In the 1st Original Draft he CLAIMED the King of England forced slavery on the Americans who resisted it.
One problem. It was so blatantly false that the Congress decided to remove that part. Jefferson & those men weren't opposed to slavery at all, which is why they OWNED slaves.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Jefferson included the part to end slavery but it was denied because of opposition to the idea by some some states. He was against slavery but saw no way to end it quickly.
And while Jefferson owned slaves he freed many of them.
Wraith23 1 year ago
@Wraith23
That's a right load of rubbish. Jefferson was not opposed to salvery. There is 0 evidence that supports ur claim.
The man owned slaves all his life, and made his fortune from them. If he had been opposed to slavery for even one day, he never would have slaves. Peroid.
Second, he would not have raped his slaves either. Or do Sally Hemings descendants mean nothing? Slavery, rape & Gemocide of the N Am peoples. He's no better than a nazi, and ur an apologist.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Please stop embarrassing yourself and read a damn history book.
Jefferson supported the legislation to ban slave-trade in Virginia and when in office tried to ban slavery in the western territories.
By the way Jefferson couldn't free his slaves since that was outlawed by the constitution of Virginia and in fact he died in debt so your argument of "his fortune" is even more ignorance.
Wraith23 1 year ago 3
Thanks to president Jefferson the slave trade was ended in 1807, his actions are very clear.
Wraith23 1 year ago 13
@Wraith23 I HATE how people rake Jefferson over the coals. Jefferson does appear hypocritical in his views on slavery, but no one ever looks at it through the perspective of the 18th century. He was considered radical on his abolitionist views as a Virginia planter and tried more times than anyone to abolish slavery in the Virginia House of Burgesses.
tachikoma747 9 months ago
@Wraith23 The slave trade ended in 1807? England did not abolish it until 1834, the United States until 1863, ratified and put into law as the 13th amendment in 1865.
mrceebees14 7 months ago
@mrceebees14 The international slave trade,not slavery itself.
rimidalv47 7 months ago
@rimidalv47 Just looked it up, it's actually 1808.
mrceebees14 7 months ago
@Wraith23 Oh but they still got sold down the missishippi
NAEIRNBRUFORU 6 months ago
@Wraith23 yes the slaveholder gets credit for ending the slave trade because the constitution mandated it. I suppose you also hate Alexander Hamilton a man who hated slavery and said that a free educated black had the same average natural ability as a free educated white man. Jefferson meanwhile had doubts that they possessed this ability.
just because he was president do not mean he deserves frankly any credit for that clause.
sfafasfasfsa 4 months ago
@sfafasfasfsa
Jefferson's stance on black men's intelligence hates slavery too, but the economic stability of the South and his massive debt (millions by today's standard) prohibited him from freeing his.
Mind you I believe slavery and claiming any man is less intelligent that the other is grossly wrong.
karritto 4 months ago
@karritto
No i agree with you, but to say jefferson was the main guy behind ending the slave trade 1807 is incorrect.
I agree that he hated slavery look at his home he would never have to see his great shame. it was his fatal flaw, reminds us that he was human.
my main thing with jefferson is that he should have left economic details to others and focused on philosphy. it was like walt disney trying to do accounting. he was a dreamer and a visionary and very intelligent not an economist.
sfafasfasfsa 4 months ago
@karritto and yes i do believe at that point stability was more necessary, because a) they were an example to the rest of the world that a republic could work
and b) if they would have fought eachother some states called for forgien aid, and many states would become subjects to either the french or british empires
sfafasfasfsa 4 months ago
@Wraith23
Many slave owners supported ending the slave trade. It wasn't needed. But they weren't against slavery. You're confusing the 2. You also don't discuss 2 reasons WHY they wanted to end slave trade: not in their economic interest & fear of slave insurrection (Vessey Denmark etc).
Slave owners didn't want slavery in Nest Territory for same reasons, not because of abolition. That's what you can read in not only history books, but in their own writings
EBanonymous 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@EBanonymous
"Many slave owners supported ending the slave trade. It wasn't needed. But they weren't against slavery"
You have no proof of this and trying to produce it would be futile because it doesn't exist.
Wraith23 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
You are contradicting yourself again, when saying he was a "racist" and that he "raped" Sally Hemings. Which one is it? did he love her enough to have children with her or did he hated the race?
Your childish comparison with nazism was very funny especially considering Jefferson work on human liberty.
It is you who are just a troll here.
Wraith23 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Even more you cant make "slaves" of N Am people and then commit "genocide" on them thats just an absurd position.
And for your information african americans are NOT natives to America.
Wraith23 1 year ago
@Wraith23
You don't know the definition of Genocide or the most basic of facts. Native Americans were sold on Wall St as slaves & were literal slaves in Mass & other places. They were virtual slaves economically as a direct result of Jefferson's ethnocide policies & "civilising" them.
Jefferson in 1807 - same yr discusses war preparations to kill Natives in the Northwest Territory. Hitler directly said he took inspiration from Americans
I never sais Africans were from the American continent.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
"You don't know the definition of Genocide or the most basic of facts."
At least I can make informed arguments without repeating in every post the same basic fallacy of reductio ad absurdum.
"Native Americans were sold on Wall St as slaves & were literal slaves in Mass & other places. They were virtual slaves economically as a direct result of Jefferson's ethnocide policies & "civilising" them.
False
"Hitler directly said he took inspiration from Americans"
Absurd
Wraith23 1 year ago
@Wraith23
Hitler did copy the US Genocide fo the Native American tribes:
John Toland, Adolf Hitler, 1976.p. 702 "Hitler's concept of concentration camps ... genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history...He admired the camps for...ndians in the wild West; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination -- by starvation and uneven combat -- of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@Wraith23
Joachim Fest, Hitler, 1973, p. 214 Hitler's "continental war of conquest" was modeled "with explicit reference to the United States"
Genocide and the Modern Age: Etiology and Case Studies of Mass Death "Hitler saw the settlement of the New World and the concomitant elimination of North America's Indian population by white European settlers as a model to be followed by Germany on the European continent"
Your idea that this is "absurd" reveals you deny the facts
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Pathetic.
I suppose you also consider that the NAZI party followed the peace and order of the ancient Indus Civilization, after all Hitler was inspider by their swastikas.
LibertyRealm 6 months ago
@Wraith23
As to Native American slaves being sold on Wall St - that's "African slaves" - my typo. The Dutch forced them to build Wall St after they murdered a tribe in NJ (hence the need for a wall), then they built Broadway, the fort, the dock. The English continued slavery there and sold Africans at the "slave market" which is today Wall St & Water St.
The English did make some of the tribes their slaves - NY & Mass like w/ the Pequots in 1673 & other tribes. So did Columbus
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@Wraith23
And as he was writing the Dec of Independence, what was Jefferson doing?
Jefferson was trying to hunt down the 20 runaway slaves who ran away from his plantation to join the British and fight for thier freedom.
Same time. Same man. Same plantation owner. This "abolitionist" was so quick to go after those slaves. How can you be Against something and ado that thing.
Let's see. Ur against drunkenss. But u drink. Words here mean not a damn thing. Actions count mate.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Jefferson was the JFK and MLK of his day. Hating him for being a slave owner then is like hating someone today for owning a car. Slavery was a left over trait from Europe. It was common. Today looking back it is wrong. But it was very profitable and common then. If these men were so evil and wrong why is it they created a nation and laws which gave us freedom and equality.
Jononutoob 1 year ago 2
@Jononutoob
JFK - another criminal who launched ilegal war in Cuba, Vietnam and got a lot of innocent people killed. He was no Civil Rights activist, but a politican who supported crimes of aggression & is credited w/ beginng the Vietnam War. What Vietmanese rights?
MLK? You compare Jefferson to him? MLK was adamately opposed to Vietnam War, racial descrimination. Jefferson advocated war & fought Nat ive Americans for land. He was a big racist & wrote that blacks were inferior in Notes on VA.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
JFK wanted to end the Vietnam war. Im not sure how you consider JFK a pro war president. He did all he could to avoid war. Many would say he was killed for it. I suppose you would say Bobby Kennedy was racist and pro war too. And Jefferson never wanted war. He wanted independence. When Britain said no, then war was the only choice. Calling him racist is laughable. Who wasnt racist? It was the 1700s.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob
Based on Oliver Stone's movie? JFK began the war & had NO intention of ending it. That is just false, & Chomsky's book "rethinking Camelot" reviews the documentary evidence.
I didn't say RFK was racist & I could care less; but he ran the terrorist war against Cuba, and that's a fact. These reckless men brought the woprld close to a nuclear war, & in 02' it was revealed just how close we came to it.
Read Jefferson's Aug 28, 1807 letter to Henry Dearborn "we shall kill all"
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Ha! You sir are really entertaining. I cant say this any other way. JFK wanted to end the war in Vietnam. Chomsky? Ha. Well then I guess you're right. Cause he knows.LOL I suggest you look at this further.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
@Jononutoob
If you seriously want to discuss this, then send me a private message, as this place is just too small.
I don't need to refer to Chomsky on JFK,. And I'd be careful about repeating the scapling argument. Rmember who was killling whom and why. One had land, and one wanted it. Native Americnas wee not running around killing people; that was the Europeans and Americans.
I don't think he was an exception. He was like other slave owners.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@Jononutoob
Jefferson in that 1807 letter - among other places - orders the Sec of War to make preparations to fight the Prophet (Tecumseh's brother) and uses "savages" term. He was also a supporter of ethnocide & Genocide. I don't mince words. Jefferson in his own book "Notes on Virginia" says blacks were inferior, and he had 100's of slaves. That's not racist? Then what is?
Anyway, what's important is what he did, not his racism per se. Genocide & slavery are pretty bad things, no?
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@Jononutoob I can't message you because of your "friend lock"; if you want I can send you well respected sources like the Library of Congress etc on how I can say these things.
EBanonymous 1 year ago
@EBanonymous
Jefferson owned slaves. YES. Back then that was like owning a car today. It was a social norm at the time so get over it. Everybody had them. Now in terms of Jefferson wanting to murder natives. I can provide dozens of Jefferson's writings which prove different. Jefferson worked hard to bring peace. But when natives scalp American women and children Jefferson became upset. He then responded. You make it seem like he went out of his way to own slaves and kill natives. Look it up.
Jononutoob 1 year ago 6
@Jononutoob well, that's not enitrely true. Only the rich southerners could afford slaves and needed them for their large plantations. however, Since Jefferson was , in fact , a planter, it makes sense that had them. Most of the South was morally opposed to slavery, Hence why the called it "our curious institution" or as Jefferson called it" a necessary evil". I completely agree with you, Jefferson is by far my favorite founding father I just wanted to clarify on that common misconception.
handsofstone21 3 months ago
@handsofstone21 Slaves built the white house, which isnt in southern US. Slaves were everywhere, southern plantation owners just owned alot more of them. Perhaps my comment can be interpreted as slaves were equally existent throughout the colonies. And you are right, many more slaves were south. But as I made a mistake so did you, "only the rich southerners could afford slaves" is not correct either. As slaves were commonly sold in the northern colonies and often stayed there.
Jononutoob 3 months ago
@Jononutoob
And killing jews in Germany during the nazi regime was like having breakfast. All justified for the times.
jxsilicon9 3 months ago
@jxsilicon9 Oh please. Dramatics and emotion are no place for honest discussion of time periods. I hate the idea of slavery, but as a white man I cant say if I was born in that time if I would have had slaves or not. We are only what our surroundings make us. Slavery was common all over the world for thousands of years. It is not the same as putting jews in oven and burning them alive.
Jononutoob 3 months ago
@Jononutoob
Well they enslave the Jews also. So is that just like owning a car?
jxsilicon9 3 months ago
@jxsilicon9 Cars are norms for us. We use them to make our lives easier. We look at them as objects. In that sense yes slaves can be compared to cars of today. There are far better examples out there. I am simply saying that slavery was a common aspect of life back then. Many had slaves, some treated them very badly, a few treated them well. I would consider the cruel treatment of slaves to be far more sickening than slavery itself. And why the jews? Most peoples were slaves at some point.
Jononutoob 3 months ago
@EBanonymous
Are you so desperate to have a semi-logical argument that you are inventing facts now?
Jefferson owned a plantation and slaves because thats was the socially accepted institution then, an institution inherited from the british, but even though he possessed slaves he made every action possible for us to consider him an "abolitionist".
Wraith23 1 year ago
i think i'm gonna write in thomas jeffersons name in the next presidential election, he could govern better from the grave than the sorry excuses for candidates we have today
fiddlenut24 1 year ago
The United States as a government and as a working entity for the benefit of its people is and has been a great experiment. It is an experiment that is ongoing and its strength being strengthened in the furnace of of a Republic and perfected in a peoples democracy. It is not a perfect state of government but with all its faults its dam well near it!
mymusicfolder1 1 year ago
We need another Jefferson and Adams. Two passionate and moral men.
Jononutoob 1 year ago
Imo, this scene is the most important scene in the series. It outlines the next evolutionary state of "free" governance. But, it will not happen for a long while for a few reasons.
biped19 1 year ago
Thomas Jefferson is correctly portrayed as someone with Aspergers Syndrome.
kristell9 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Paul Giamatti is a distractingly terrible actor.
tabber87 1 year ago
no congress shall be bound by any other congress
health care reform will fall very soon
MrStropparo 1 year ago
This mini-series made me feel proud to be British, quite surprisingly. It was because the colonists thought their inherent rights as freeborn Britons were being denied that they felt the need for revolution.
jimbopumbapigsticks 1 year ago 3
the man was a slaveowner, of course.
7spqr7 1 year ago
I think this scene, more than anything else, establishes the key difference between Libertarians (Jefferson) and Conservatives (Adams).
I could just see this kind of conversation taking place between Ron Paul/Bob Barr (Jefferson), Mitt Romney/Sarah Palin/Patrick J Buchanan (Adams) and Ronald Reagan (Franklin).
RushLimborg 1 year ago
@RushLimborg
I find it offensive as a REAL patriot that you lump the founders of this republic with such a rapacious and repugnant sort that places party / ideology over liberty. Those losers you hold in such high esteem are puppets to their banking masters. Jefferson was describing something beyond "libertarianism" and whatever "ism" you may be fond of.
biped19 1 year ago
@biped19 While I agree with you, labeling Ron Paul as a puppet to banks is an insult to his character as he wants to destroy the most powerful bank in the world, and despises it with the same fire that Thomas Jefferson had for the Federalist ideas of his time.
DimeLivesInUs 1 year ago
@biped19
Excuse me? Without "ideology", you have nothing to fight for. What do you believe in? THAT is your "ideology".
RushLimborg 1 year ago
Stephen Dillane's portrayal of Thomas Jefferson in this scene is absolutely fantastic.
I demand a spin-off series.
TheGreatPrince 1 year ago 70
@TheGreatPrince Me too! I'd watch the "HBO's George Washington (played by the same actor of course)" and i'd so watch a "HBO's Thomas Jefferson" played by stephen dillane of course
Freedom21stCenturi 1 year ago
@Freedom21stCenturi
Oh wow! I hadn't thought of that before, but I agree!
I would definitely watch both of those, and buy a nice fat box set later on!
That would be a masterpiece series rivaling "I, Claudius!"
However, "John Adams" was regarded do highly, I hope HBO wouldn't do a rush job and ruin it all...
Provided HBO kept the same primary actors and production values, it would really be worth it.
Even though it might be expensive, it would probably be very lucrative for them in the end.
goldilox369 1 year ago
@TheGreatPrince 2nd
Hannanstl 8 months ago
It's funny how John Adams describes Jefferson here as a "walking contradiction". Jefferson was very vocal in his opposition to slavery--and yet he owned slaves himself. To his credit, Tom treated his slaves well, more like servants, but still....
RushLimborg 1 year ago
Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner
88Willhur 1 year ago
@88Willhur
Well, it was the late 1700's
XMOO7 1 year ago
Did Benjamin Franklin fart at 0:26? Hahaha. I LOVE this series!
PseudoSenator 1 year ago 4
@PseudoSenator I love this series too. I guess it's suppose to be an insect flying around, but it totally sounds like Franklin blew some lightning out of his Arse.
madmaxit2 1 year ago
@madmaxit2
Ben Frankling would have made a great President. Why didn't he run?
pluto4847 1 year ago
@pluto4847 He was too old and probably knew his time was coming to an end.
Besides, he had to make what time he had left to hook-up with all of those French Madams : )
Seriously though, he knew he was too old.
madmaxit2 1 year ago
Best scene of the whole darn thing!
septrenarion 1 year ago
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. - Thomas Jefferson
moviemakerHiD2 1 year ago 38
@moviemakerHiD2 Although I agree with premise of the statement, its important to advance society as well. When TJefferson made those comments most of the population lived on farms in sparsely populated areas. There were a lot of drifters and groups of drifters looking to squat on land and settle. We didn't have modern police force and the same laws. Being armed was essential in maintaining a balance. Although I support the right to own a gun.
xyz321123 1 year ago
@xyz321123 I agree with you that it was a sparsely populated society, but Jefferson was aware of this and he did remark on the difference between different societies. He warned that "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe". He sensed the inevitability of corruption in cosmopolitan society.
astraiiia 1 year ago
@xyz321123 The issue is whether the the inception of the Second Amendment, at the time of its adoption, can be incorporated by the limitations of a fundamental principle within today's society. The principle is self-preservation, an essential element of Liberty. Jefferson's statement, however, is still relevant. Laws only inhibit the rights of those who intend to purchase guns legally, but those who wish to commit a crime usually obtain guns by other means. A gun does not preclude intent.
smo699 1 year ago
Comment removed
jmanto02 1 year ago
Comment removed
jmanto02 1 year ago
Comment removed
jmanto02 1 year ago
word man
ryuninja666 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
all i can say i s thank god jefferson's wacky ideas didnt gain credence in the US.
jrr1234567890 1 year ago
In referance to the last point made; Jefferson would have vindicated Adams if he had seen the average American today.
PKtheFirst 2 years ago
do you think you American friends sounded that British 230 years ago? :-)
sipedam 2 years ago
@sipedam Yes they came over & setteled here Duh! most of our ways came from england
DytMfdguy 2 years ago
It is soooo Amazing how God put so many Brilliant Men in one place at one time and now our Government considers them Terrorist :-(
rowdyronn 2 years ago
god doesn't exist. P.S., you're insane.
10mintwo 2 years ago
I believe that our 'founding fathers' were indeed brilliant, but at the time they weren't as compromised by outside influences as our lawmakers are now. No doubt there are some very brilliant men in our government at the moment, but most seem restrained against doing what they may know is right for America. If we were to try to build a nation with the foundations of government we have today in the same way our founding fathers did with their foundations it simply couldn't be done.
Troylito 2 years ago 2
Sadly, I certainly agree with you. Well thought out post!
rowdyronn 2 years ago
Lawmakers today are to into their careers, their investments, the more money they can get, and so on than they do about creating a free and equal society. But remember that even back then there were obstacles and outside influences that prevented a true classically liberal nation. After all the constitution only really guaranteed rights to rich white men to the exclusion of women, non-whites, and poor whites. Slavery was still legal and no good safeguards were put in place to stop big government
silverbackman 2 years ago
Comment removed
septrenarion 1 year ago
@septrenarion
No, not Ron Paul. Even Jefferson was more of a hawk than Ron Paul. Ron Paul would NOT have sent the marines to Tripoli to deal with the pirates, like Jefferson did--Ron, bless his heart, would have made a speech about how our "imperialist" trade with Europe caused the pirated to attack--and would have recalled all our merchant ships.
RushLimborg 1 year ago
@RushLimborg
I think Ron would've issued letters of Marque and Reprisal, and put a bounty on the pirates head. Let private citizens protect their property and trade routes however they want, without getting the national military involved.
TheCapitalistdog 1 year ago
I wish jefferson was a man who spoke more, he may have covinced some of fellow revolutionaries to support the idea of, shall I say, "To have more faith in humanity"
*sighs*
If only he were at the constituional convention.
zeo285 2 years ago
Indeed, there were many errors in our constitution that he could have prevented.....which is why we live in a modern America devoid of fundamental personal freedoms. For one there should have been a clear law in the constitution stating that rights can never be taken away no matter what, and that all people are free to do what they want as long as they do not violate the rights of others. Now a days it's considered constitutional to take away the right to ingest what one wants for instance.
silverbackman 2 years ago
0:26 Ben Franklin farts.
Anyone ever read his book "Farting Proudly"? I ripped a good one there.
Also, it's a good read fyi
CHARLIE10SHERRARD 2 years ago