Child Marriage: Halacha Required

[suavelyphe]

Are these muslims or Chirstians?

[elisero]

Does the Quran state that a man should take up himself a wife and treat her as though he would treat himself? (two parrallel scriptures) My point is that this is a common sense issue. in that, the issue is not about marriage but about what happens in the marriage. In the beinning of the Muslim community, I have read that Mohammad married young Aisha, yet the relationship was more of compassion than involving sex. Open ended question.

[WONDAWOMAN]

Common sense says a man who marries a female of ANY age is going to be having sex with her, because he will feel it is his right as her husband, so why even put a CHILD in that postiion? And according to the Muslim man, if early preganacy is psychoogically and physiologically damaging, then so is childhood sex, which means childhood MARRIAGE should not be. Seeing that there were no abstinence laws for married couples in Torah safe 2 say MARRIAGE IS FOR ADULTS ONLY! Adults don't need to abstain.

[TexasWundergirl]

I dont know about muslim stuff but i do knoW CHILDREN SHOULD BE ALLOWED to be children untilt hey are adults...marrying a child an adult robs that child of life experience that is need to maintain healthy lonlasting marriage.

[paulgem123]

Yes, I think the Most High leaves it to us to have common sense. Don't take children and have them deal with grown up things. Unfortunately these cultures are under man's authority and what they say goes. I think it is child abuse.

[omedyashar]

I like how the clip begins:

"...peoples like to live."

And the Almighty commanded, "...and thou shalt LIVE with them."

LIVE - and not needlessly die or suffer.

[Torahrevival]

Amen and amen. "LIVE - and not needlessly die or suffer." Great comments Yosef

[omedyashar]

The Mosaic Court, which we're obligated to heed - both native Israelite and 'ger' alike... (Deut. chap 1 and 17:8-11) ...ordered that a person must guard his health - BOTH mental and physical health. This is touched on in Hilkoth De'oth in Mishne Torah. Although Torah allows 'marriage' at any age - unlike what the cleric in the video said, within a Torah framework the first part of marriage [qidushin] does NOT include require intercourse, and the Mosaic Court forbad intercourse at such a time.

[omedyashar]

Although the written Torah doesn't give specific laws on when one can have relations, it does command "and you shall carefully guard your lives." This is a commandment regarding health. The Mosaic Court made laws setting limits on intercourse with a young married girl based on this law. Perhaps long ago people were able to have children healthily at a younger age. Whether or not female body changed, the law to guard physical health remains. "W-nishmartham me'od l-nofshothekham."

[omedyashar]

* Torah does not require the consumating marriage with a young girl.

* Torah DOES require that we guard our health.

* Therefor, guarding health overrides consideration of having relations with a young girl, giving the reality of the serious and unnessesary damage it can cause to her health.

A + B = C

[noremote]

If a young girl gets sold by her father to be married to some man or his son, does she have any say in the matter? Or is she just raped?

[omedyashar]

Absolutely she has say in the matter. And a man is not allowed to have relations with her until she reaches a certain age, and on the condition that it is safe for her. The latter depends upon medical knowledge -- [NOT upon common public opinion]. Rape is forbidden in all contexts. A man is also forbidden to have forced relations with his wife of 20, 30, 40, etc... years of age. Forced relations are forbidden regardless of age.

All of these laws are contained in Mishne Torah.

[omedyashar]

What the Islamic cleric said with regard to the Quran on marrying a girl is also true in Torah... as the maker of the clip already pointed out - the Torah does not give a commandment regarding the age of a girl. Simiarly, there is no halakha l-mosha mi-sinai (oral law given to Moses at Sinai pertaining to a commandment) regarding this issue. So none of the 613 commandments of Torah prohibit it. BUT what? .... [continued]

[omedyashar]

...[continued] Although none of the 613 commandments prohibit relations with a girl at a certain age, the Torah DOES say "w-HHai bo-ham" (...and you shall live with them.) The commandments were intended to be a way that brings LIFE, not death and needless suffering. Clearly there can be multiple opinions as to the application of this principle, but the Creator is not source of confusion; He knows that equally well-intended individuals can have multiple perspectives and opinions [contin.]....

[Hesediah]

Even Karaites would agree with your premise: the need for halakha. The scriptures even give place for man-made traditions or legal precedents through its elders and councils (Dt 17). This would be one of those cases where the written laws of the Torah would come together to protect the young girl, and the wisdom of the elders and Levites. For us non-Jews, it would just be the wise leaders.

[Torahrevival]

Great points and I agree. Kind of leads again to the issue of what the Scriptures have to say concerning non-Israelites.

[Hesediah]

My friend, that is our challenge. True answers in our existence doesn't lead to an ending of questions, but a new source of questions. Although the scriptures focus on Israel, it still deals with the human problem.

[Torahrevival]

"True answers in our existence doesn't lead to an ending of questions, but a new source of questions."

Aye Caramba!

I'll be dropping this phrase to impress people with. Thanks :-)

[Hesediah]

LOL!!!

[gamba1507]

also the fact that judaisem (not the black hebrew israelites judaisem) does not premit more then one wife shold protect the girls from geting married to an ols man on most cases.

buttom line, if you love your daughter, you will not let anything bad happening to her, you will protect her until you see the time is right to give her in marriage to her new protector, her husbend.

[Torahrevival]

It's not just a Muslim issue. This girls being married at very young ages is a very widespread practice in Africa, regardless of religion.

I don't think it's sufficient to just say love your daughter. Similarly, it's not enough to say "be a good person." We need details on HOW to love our daughters and HOW to be a good person.

[gamba1507]

Point taken.

I admit, I don't know a lot about Halacha.

Anyways, even if it is true that it is a problem among jewish people also and that you can't find in the Halach any instructions regarding the correct way, it seems to be working well in the west even without these instructions, as we do not marry here young girls to old man.

so maybe it is a coulturol isse and not a Halacha one.

[Torahrevival]

That's true, it does seem to be a cultural issue more than anything else. It makes me wonder what exactly makes ommunities/cultures do certain things. I reckon it's mostly to do with a lack of widespread opportunities (i.e. poverty). If families weren't in such deep poverty (as most families in Africa and Asia are), fathers wouldn't feel the need to "marry-off" their daughters so quickly.

[ipwnnewbs50]

polygamy is not forbidden in judaism, actually.

[gamba1507]

What is judaisem? who is a Jew?

when I said in judaisem does not premit more then one wife I ment the head institution or Rabanut harashit. as far as I know, they do not accept it.

[ipwnnewbs50]

polygamy is not often practiced, but there is no prohibition against in in halakhah. When I say judaism, I mean mainstream orthodox judaism. Many people think it is forbidden, but it is not.

[omedyashar]

Correct, they don't allow this for 'Israelis', once they are already in Israel. However, according to Talmudic law there is no requirment that your marriage be accepted by the Rabanut ha-rashit, lol. A kosher Israelite marriage only required two valid witnesses and a couple who are permitted according to Biblical / Talmudic law.

NO Jewish communities consider the "rabanut ha-rashi" as a binding authority on all Jews. It's just the orthodox authority for policy in the "Israeli" government.

[gamba1507]

I think this is a Muslim Issue. I dont really know, but I have a strong feeling the Jews in Africa don't have that kind of problem. The FATHER must not release his daughter before she is ready. Do we need a HALACHA on how to love and care for our daughters?

Islam also premits touching the body of young girls, very young girls, which today be considerd as pedophila yet is still practiced.

[ChristiansMustLearn]

i dont believe the "God" of the bible is our creator but a fiction of the Jewish people that they crafted over the ages, hyrbridized from the various Gods the encountered in their sojourn in other peoples lands. So therefore...this is all meaningless to me.

[pianokid100]

this video is pointless , let me explain. The whole issue with the scriptures in both new and old testaments, that speak ill of those that invent commandments, has never been an issue with "can we have rules that help us". this is not the issue, but about teaching things as scripture/doctrine. To say that it is best to have a baby after age 16, or whatever age, is wise and allowed, but it simply isnt allowed to say that it is a sin, if that makes sense.

[Torahrevival]

Yep, that makes sense but it doesn't make the video pointless. The point of the video is that it is necessary to work out how to apply the scriptures in our day to day lives.

[pianokid100]

the video is pointless, because, if the point of the vid was to prove that it is ok to make extra-biblical rules, nobody will argue with that, so long as you dont teach them as doctrine, or if the point was to show how to apply scripture to everyday life things like child marriage, then it failed too since you showed no scripture to apply

[Torahrevival]

Okay. Well, I think some people have been edified by the video so it's not been pointless as far as I'm concerned.

[pianokid100]

well, if the point was to convince someone that there should be a an age minimum for marriage, i dont think anyone wouldve disagreed, and the people that would disagree, probably live in a place where internet doesnt even exist , and you didnt prove that men have the power to declare things sins neither. you have just stated the obvious, that in the interest of the young girls, there should be an age minimum

[omedyashar]

The video is intended to prove a point to people who acknowledge that the written Torah ["Law of Moses"] is authoritive and from the Creator. The video shows the practical necessity of halakha -- some sort of authoritive legislative system which explains HOW people are to actualize the words of Torah in every day life, including in situations which aren't directly dealt with in the Written Torah. The Written Torah itself commands we heed such a legislative system.

[Leafyboy70]

Take Joseph and Rachael for example: he went to the Father for the Daughters in marriage, and the Father told him that Rachael was the youngest and in there land the elder daughter would have to get married first. So he was trick into taking the elder first the he work a number of years more the Rachael, who by that time was of a good age for child barring.

[Leafyboy70]

O also with what the guy said at the end. Back in our Biblicall days this issue was again solved because the Father had to get the Daughter away. This is way there was a thing call betrothed. The Father would not just just away there daughter like that because when they're single and young like that they're under submission to that Father. This is way the men would talk to the Father for there daughters hand in marriage.

[Leafyboy70]

In the scriture one become an adult at the age of 13. So the elder would instruct the younger with the issues of marriage. Marriage should not be the issue first, but giving born should be. Now being that we are Israel, we could just consult with the Most High about the Issue.

[Leafyboy70]

ISRAEL WOULD NOT DO THIS. We are wiser than this. we would see that it's an issue and solve it. Why, if these men know about this, would they continue to do something so critical to there own women. The people of true Israel are not that dumb and it would get around quickly, the danger that are involved, and it would stop immediately.

[Malachai2012]

hmmmmmmmm interesting points there akhi.

[breger91]

This is definately a complex issue. One argument for child marriage is that it can provide a poor family's daughter with a comfortable life(if the husband is wealthy). This may have been why Biblical kings had so many wives. Other than for this reason, I think there should be a minumum age for marriage. The woman/girl should have the last word about marriage and sex - if she's not ready, she should NOT be forced.

Scripture: Gen 24:57-58

[Leafyboy70]

I agree with you. Women know there bodies. Also I believe the Israelite men would have know of this issue because of the simple fact that the issue of giving birth at too old have an age was well known.

[Torahrevival]

"The woman/girl should have the last word about marriage and sex - if she's not ready, she should NOT be forced. Scripture: Gen 24:57-58"

Yeah that seems like the most sensible approach and good scripture reference also. I guess it very much goes back to the parents and their relationship with the daughter. If they have a healthy relationship, then they will not be looking to force anything on her.

[tngoatee]

Great questions, and an excellent beginning to your self-exploration of this vitally important moral discussion.

[Torahrevival]

Thanks. It is indeed a very important issue.