@Vutxzzn2 I've listened to an interview of an expert on George Washington on NPR and he said that he was a Deist and only prayed with his soldiers to comfort them. The Utah legistature required History classes to teach about his prayers, but my AP History teacher also said that he was a Deist who never said personal prayer.
@iplaydrumsnguitar i strongly urge you to read David McCullough's 1776 as Washington writes in his correspondence with subordinates and family concerning the role Providence has played in their victories (Trenton/Princeton) and even the safe retreat across the hudson river from white plains back into manhattan.
The story of George Washington praying is a lie because he was a Deist who didn't pray. I have a strong testimony of prayer, but we can't spread the lie that George Washington was a prayerful man.
@iplaydrumsnguitar George Washington was a firm believer in Christianity. and he did pray. quoting Peter Lillback "here are over one hundred different prayers composed and written by Washington in his own hand, with his own words, in his writings...."
*Lillback, Peter A. (2007-02-10). "Why Have Scholars Underplayed George Washington’s Faith?".
would like to hear Elder Maxwell's words without the background music...I have difficulty hearing what he is saying, because the music is too loud. sorry.
Atheists will soon take over and they will pass laws to criminalize all religions. I think all religions need to ban together, stop fighting among themselves and fight the rising tide of secularism.
Amazing how accurate Maxwell's predictions were back then, all of these things are coming true under the worldly false leadership of our current, foreign-born President Obama who is unamerican, anti-family, anti-mormon yet utterly pro-gay and pro-abortion to his core.
Evil personified, albeit a puppet pulled by strings, his bloodline has been cursed, therefore we should expect no less than what Neil Maxwell has forewarned...
Can we really expect Obama NOT to help usher such evil into our lives??
“Our faith is down. Our churches are emptying. Do you know why? Because our churches don’t stand for anything anymore.”- Glenn Beck and I agree also, for it is true!
@SaySomethingTV your statement is not accurate, only persons of African ancestry were kept from the Priesthood, dark skinned peoples of the Americas, the Pacific Islands ect. who were not of African descent were fully permitted entrance into the Priesthood, and no ethnic group has ever been barred from membership on the Church, only some from the Priesthood. The Priesthood in past ages was more greatly restricted, such as in ancient Israel where only Levites held the Priesthood.
@SaySomethingTV if you honestly care about history, the reason for the Priesthood ban in the first place was to prevent persecution, one of the causes of persecution of LDS settlers in Missouri in the 1830's was because they were abolitionists. The ban was adopted in order to distance the Church from what was in 19th Century America a hotly contested political issue. Overtime a lot of folklore (ie blacks being descendants of Cain) developed, but that isn't historically accurate or Scriptural.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Soon after the Catholic Church canonized Saint Damien of Molokai in October 2009, largely for his 19th century work at the leprosy or Hansen's Disease quarantine settlement on the isolated Kalaupapa Peninsula, senior service missionaries in the Polynesian Cultural Center's Hawaii Mission Settlement began wondering how they might add that information to the exhibit in the small, thatched-roof chapel that tells how Christianity came to the islands.
Please feel free to speak your mind, but lose the "Heart Sell" TM music. The speech shouldn't need that extra zing to carry the point, if there is one. This tactic is blatantly manipulative and is a foundational element of the LDS Church's "spirit" gambit.
Please feel free to speak your mind, but lose the "Heart Sell" TM music. The speech shouldn't need that extra zing to carry the point, if there is one. This tactic is blatantly manipulative and is a foundational element of the LDS Church's "spirit" gambit.
They were participating in a handcart trek — a tradition within the Mormon church that helps young members re-enact their pioneering ancestors' journey across the American wilderness and treacherous Rocky Mountains before arriving in Salt Lake City 163 years ago.
In Philadelphia, handcart treks are scheduled once every four years.
"I was impressed with the enthusiasm of Elder Perry. I wrote down some of his ideas and I will try to share my enthusiasm for life with others," said Sergey Grachov in Moscow.
Missionaries were touched by the love of the Brethren and recommitted themselves to showing it to others.
christanity was forced up all none midle eastern peoples... there is no god, and we were inslaved by the roman christians....oh and fuck you mohamad!!!
Thank God we live in a country where Church and state are not one ..this has always been a tragedy and always brought tragedy in its wake . We are not a christian nation or a Jewish nation or a muslim nation ..We are a nation of free men women and children ..The secular has its place with the religious but let it never be said that we are a religious nation alone ..And never let it be said that we should be a religious nation alone .
In response to the Haitian requests, Emergency response supplies, including water, water purification supplies, food, tents and tarps were shipped by air from the United States, explained Reese. Other needed items were already on the ground in the Dominican Republic.
George R. Donaldson, 52, Denbigshire, Wales; Ini B. Ekong, 41, Etigan, Nigeria; Christian Fingerle, 42, Usingen, Germany; Craig G. Fisher, 59, Morgan, Utah; Jerryl L. Garns, 59, Stevenson Ranch, California; Jack N. Gerard, 52, McLean, Virginia; M. Keith Giddens, 53, Acworth, Georgia; Brent J. Hillier, 49, Centennial, Colorado; Jui Chang Juan, 51, Taichung, Taiwan; George M. Keele, 62, Gardnerville, Nevada; Dane O. Leavitt, 53, Cedar City, Utah; Alexander T. Mestre, 40, Mérida,
How proud I am to know we have young men like Seth to keep us informed, to keep us thinking, and to make us realize how grateful we need to be. I am proud to help share his thoughts and video's with everyone I know and grateful I can carry this message.
"When we choose Christ, acting in faith to humble ourselves before Him, we put ourselves in the hands of the Master Finisher. As we do his will, he will help us be stripped of pride and become meek and lowly in heart, filled with his pure and perfect love."
Bruce R. McConkie: When the full account comes to us [of that great meeting of Adam and his posterity at Adam-ondi-Ahman], we suppose we shall read of the offering of sacrifices in similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten; of the testimonies borne by both men and women; of great doctrinal sermons delivered by the preachers of righteousness who then ministered among them; and of the outpouring of spiritual gifts upon the faithful then assembled.
Scot and Maurine Proctor will be leading a Holy Land tour this coming fall, October 20-28, 2010. Theres no place theyd rather visit than The Holy Land, and there is no one they would rather go there with than you. Why not consider coming with them?
Though people, places and events are often thought of as comprising the history of the Church, much of that history is found within its institutional and administrative structure: the priesthood quorums, leadership councils, auxiliary organizations and written guidelines by which its work has been accomplished.
He had students he felt were praying for the same Spirit to come to the class as he was.
"It was from those wonderful days at Ricks College that I learned something to add to my prayers as a teacher," President Eyring said. "I learned to ask that my students would join in praying in faith that the Spirit would come to teach us all."
His second experience came when he taught religion classes while serving as president of Ricks College (now BYU-Idaho). He was teaching hundreds of students instead of just a few.
"It became harder to know and to pray for individuals according to their personal needs for the help of the Spirit," he said.
"But, more than that, my concern for them ignited a personal concern for their classmates. I began to teach them and pray for each of them as individuals. The Spirit came into the classroom. So, I learned that for me there is greater power in praying for a child of God than for a group of them."
Similar underlying messages are in other stories such as the one where students borrow his lecture notes only to find they are in a foreign language.
Another story finds the young student Nibley skipping class to read whole sections of the library at Berkley -- a reflection of Mormons' admiration of Nibley's raw intellect.
One tale had Nibley parachuting into Greece during World War II. As he descends, Nibley shouts to the Greeks on the ground in an attempt to let them know he is their friend. But since he did not know Modern Greek, he could only shout memorized passages of the Iliad and the Odyssey in ancient Greek. It worked and they didn't shoot him. Wilson said this story is used to illustrate Nibley's ability with languages.
"The psychology of the film speaks to people," Wilson said. "They can identify with Mahana, with feeling worthless but realizing they can rebuild their inner strength."
Wilson spoke several years ago at a fireside in Sacramento, Calif., where her daughter, Melanie, introduced her to two women in burqas visiting from the Middle East.
Wilson has received letters from places like Ghana and the Philippines, asking her about Mahana. "I went for a long time not understanding that this was my role, that years later I would still be talking about her," she said.
Once at an airport, Wilson met an LDS man who worked at the Pentagon. He told her the U.S. Army has shown "Johnny Lingo" to communities in Third World countries that are trying to rebuild after enduring some disaster.
He is a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at BYU where he also serves as editor in chief of the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative and as director of outreach for the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship.
A native of California, Daniel Peterson served a mission for the LDS Church in German-speaking Switzerland in the early 1970s, then earned a bachelor's degree in Greek and philosophy from Brigham Young University and, after several years spent in the Middle East, a doctorate in Arabic and Persian from UCLA.
Other performances included songs from the Gnostic, Jewish and Bahai faiths, a Buddhist recitation, Sikh temple chant, reading from the Quran, Hindu and Buddhist dancers, and a few numbers the audience was invited to stand and sing with the childrens choir. The performance concluded with a Greek Orthodox prayer.
Stephan and Hardy, who happen to be Mormon, in 1996 co-founded Truehope, a religious-sounding Alberta nutritional supplement company, to sell their micronutrient treatment for bipolar disorder, EMPowerplus, which they manufacture in Los Angeles. It's a mixture of vitamins and minerals that sells for about $150 for a month's daily supply. The mixture contained relatively high doses of 34 vitamins and minerals including B vitamins, calcium, iron, magnesium, copper and potassium.
Not only did they keep it up, it quickly became apparent that Torah had an affinity for the sport that requires as much courage as it does athletic ability. Ben became her coach, and the two live and train in Salt Lake City.
Torah had a disappointing time in Torino, finishing fifth, and has worked hard in the interim perfecting tricks that no other female snowboarder can land. It was one of those -- a backside 720 -- that helped her earn the gold medal in the Vancouver Games last week.
"We bought them some used gear and a lesson," Marion said after Torah's medal ceremony in Vancouver. "We didn't want to spend too much because we weren't sure they'd keep it up."
Naturally athletic, Torah, her older sister Rowena and her brother Ben all preferred skiing. Rowena Bright skied for the Australian Olympic Team in Salt Lake City in 2002. Torah and Ben switched from skiing to snowboarding when she was 11 years old.
"We couldn't keep them inside," Marion said, laughing. And they didn't try. Her mother introduced her to cross-country skiing at age 2, and all of the children did what many youngsters in Australia do; they swam.
So what can I conclude from the present proliferation of all this confusion? This is a test; it always has been a test. Furthermore, I also believe that the time for this testing, at least on the subject of Book of Mormon geography, is fast drawing to a close.
(1) every one of these proposals cannot all be true; there can only be one true solution; and (2) our foes, on both sides of the veil, rejoice when they see the confusion and contention that abounds in our ranks.
This is a rare word found only in later Greek.... Its usual sense is 'unchangeable,' 'immutable.'" Hebrews 7.24 says of Christ that because He remains to eternity He has an unchangeable and imperishable priesthood.
Instead of the passive 'unchangeable' [743] many expositors suggest the active sense 'which cannot be transferred to another;" 'Christ has a priesthood which cannot be transferred to anyone else' [citing Bengel]. This is a natural interpretation and yields a good sense, but it does not really fit the context. We should keep to the rendering 'unchangeable,' the more so as the active sense is not attested elsewhere."
We are NOT a Christian nation though we are a nation mostly of Christians. Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, etc were NOT Christians. So if people lack religion that is just as American as being Christian or Jewish.
Wrong. There are plenty of blatant statements by the founders of their Christian beliefs. From Thomas Jefferson:
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
Washington=Episcopalian, or Church of England; Franklin=Puritan, and at one point Presbyterian; Adams= Unitarian. All mentioned were Christians, just as a matter of keeping history correct.
No Sir. They were raised in those churches and sometimes attended those services out of habit or a sense of duty but in belief all 3 were deists and not in any sense were they Christian. You may correctly say that all 3 were raised Christian and were likely believing Christians in their young lives but not as adults when they were shaping this nation. Washington, for example, always left BEFORE communion so as not to be a hypocrite since he didn't believe.
Lilly said he is working with Stephen Studdert, a Utah businessman and former LDS mission president, to arrange for an army of returned missionaries to help rebuild the capital of Port-au-Prince.
Utah businessman Jeremy Johnson has helped move injured Latter-day Saints out of Haiti on helicopters, while the church has provided Johnson's group with donated goods to distribute, Bennie Lilly, the church's Caribbean-area
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welfare manager, said in a telephone interview from the Dominican Republic.
Extending federal benefits to same-sex couples will cost taxpayers $898 million over the next nine years, according to an analysis of "domestic partnership" legislation released by the Congressional Budget Office.
There are so many things wrong with the mormon doctrine: God is an exalted man, Jesus was not God in human flesh, pluarity of gods, polygamy, racism, everything that has to do with their temples, the idea that we still need a priesthood, no eternal hell, three degrees of heaven etc etc etc...
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
We have known that scripture to be there and never thought twice about there being 3 degrees of heaven. But yet Joseph Smith comes along and says ta da there must be 3 levels of heaven. Why would it take God so long to reveal this concept to his people? Makes no sense.
Where does telestial fit in to that last statement. Your missing a third level.
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever".(Isa 40:8)
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Matt 16:18)
Biblical proof that it was never lost.
God can destroy the earth (flood) and keep his word in tack. Yet when after the apostles died the church went into apostosy and was lost until Joseph arrived. You better rethink your logic.
No. I don't think there is one true church. The only test you have is whether that church is teaching what the Bible says only. The Bible is our road map in life so to speak. Of course, you have to have a relationship with Christ, but its through the Bible that we know how to live our lives.
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Ephesians 5:25
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord..." 1 Corinthians 1:2
Buildings aren't what God's looking for. That is why we do not spend too much money on any given Church. They are all very similar. Temples are a different story.......
The things done in your temple are not Biblical. The "rituals" are drawn strongly from the Masonic Lodge. This makes sense because about two months after Joseph became a mason he came up with the endowment ceremony.
In the Old Testament there was only one temple. The only person who was allowed in the temple was the high priest. The high priest would sacrifice an animal to symbolize taking away sins. Why don't the mormons do this? It would be more in-line with Old Testament teaching.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Matt. 27:51. The temple was destroyed after His death because His plan was not finished until His death.
Just because he refers everything to his father does not mean that God is literally his father. Jesus is God and not a created being or our spiritual brother. That's blashemy.
There are some many issues we are debating on. Lets just debate on one and move on.
When you give your life to Chirst you become a child of God. I don't disagree with that its Biblical. But for Joseph to blow this way out proportion to say that we are literal spirit children of God and a wife is false doctrine. Show me in the Bible that we are literal spirt children and that God has a wife whom he procreates children with. That's a fairy tale. God created man out of the dust of the ground.
Well, actually I think I've had enough debating for a while. You can go on trying to disprove our Church(LOL), but I ask that you do it without me.
I will worry about my salvation, and I hope you worry about your as well. If you want to talk with me,(which I welcome), it's going to have to be on things we agree on, which I'm SURE there is PLENTY.
I hope you have a wonderful Christmas, and I just want to say again, that I really enjoyed our discussions......
Ok. That's fine. But let me leave you with this. Just check out your beliefs with the Bible. No, I mean really do some research. I want to challenge you to really examine what Joseph and Brigham had to say about who God and Jesus are and compare this to the Bible.
Heb. 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Ephesians 2:19-22 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too(in adition) are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Just as a matter of keeping history correct, there was more than one temple in the Old Testament. There have been many temples found outside of Jerusalem that were used by the Jews before the coming of Christ, many 6-700 years before the birth of Christ. It's amazing the things that we can learn from history, it's there, we just need to look.
This is off topic of what I have been discussing on this board, but I can tell you the mormon temple(s) are in no way like the temple in the Old Testament.
Here are a few examples of how the mormon temples violate what the Biblical temple was meant for in the O.T...
God appointed only one temple to reflect the fact that there is only one true God. (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5,6) All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge. (Exodus 30:7-10; Leviticus 4:5-7; 16:1-34; 24:1-9)
The Bible sets forth strict lineage requirements for the Aaronic priesthood. It teaches very explicitly that only men from the tribe of Levi and the family line of Aaron were qualified to serve as priests in the temple sanctuary Num 3:10; Exo 29:9; Num 18:1-7.
The temple is obsolete because it was done away with after Jesus' death. The temple was destroyed Mat. 24:2. The Bible records that at the very moment Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottomMat 27:51.
We are only "saved" by the Grace of God. We understand and believe this to be true. However, we believe that there is much, much more that we must do to better serve Christ here on earth.
As far as going to heaven, The Bible clearly states that you must except Christ in your heart, be baptized of water, and truly repent of your sins.
That will get you into heaven. However, what place in heaven you hold depends upon the work and faith you have in this lifetime.....
Mormons believe you are saved by grace after all you can do. That means its of Jesus and yourself. We believe you need Christ alone to be saved and works is a natural outgrowth of this faith. But works do not, i repeat, do not save you!
The thief on the cross with Jesus was never baptized and he was saved and went to heaven. Could you explain that for me? Yes, its true that Jesus wants us to be baptized but its not a necessary "work" to be saved.(Eph 2:8,9)
The christian has always believed in three heavens. The first heaven is the atmosheric heaven i.e. the clouds, birds, planes(Gen 1), the second heaven is where the planets, moons, and stars are(Deu 17:3 Isa 13:10 Eze 32:7), and the third heaven is where God dwells(2 Cor. 12:2-4). We never believed in the concept of actually three levels of heaven where people live eternally.
About The Church in Africa. God doesn't just send people to every Country in the world. Should we go to Iran, Afghanistan, or Cuba? That probably wouldn't go over too well.
I'm not concerned with what was needed to happen in the past, I'm concerned with where we are at now, and where we will be in the future.
Among Joseph Smith's many prophesies, he said that The Church would reach every corner of the earth. Just watch and see......
I've had people discuss The Catholic Church as possibly being The Great and Abominable Church. This could not be further from the truth. The Catholic Church is in no way shape or form The Church of Satan.
I feel Elder Maxwell so eloquently describes The Great and Abominable Church in this powerful talk.
The fact that God didn't feel blacks were ready to have the responsibilty of The Priesthood until 1978, just proves, once again, that he is NOT politically correct.
God is not concerned with whatever the "world" says. He does what is RIGHT. He always has and he always will.......
You must take into consideration American racism and bigotry was a real thing. The Priesthood is basically a covenant with God, in which you except the responsibilities that go with it.
To expect a black person, living in a mostly racist society, to perform all the duties that are required, is unfair and unpractical. God is niether of these.
Joseph Smith obviously wasn't a bigot, seeing as he baptized atleast 3 black men into The Church, including the first Black Elder, Elijah Abel
So what you are saying is that is was perfectly fine for mormons to treat blacks as unequals because that was the sentiment of the country in the 1800's? Why don't you admit that mormons were racist in their teachings and that it was terrible to treat blacks as not worthy enough to hold the priesthood. But instead you come up with asinine excuses.
Elijah Abel was denied his endowments and therefore was unable to hold the priesthood. Ya, that's equality at its best.
Look, I want to have a productive discussion with you, but you are being very disrespectful. My Church is not racist. Black children of God have always been allowed in our Church.
Do you think blacks were allowed to hold The Priesthood in The Old Testament?Was God racist than?
When a black member of The Church went to heaven before 1978,I'm CONFIDENT they had the opportunity to get sealed in The Temple, and go to The Celestial Kingdom. This is why we baptize the dead.
You are still dancing around the issue of racism in the mormon church. You just can't get yourself to admit that not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood was wrong. Its sad...
Baptism for the dead is not a Christian doctrine. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"Hbr 9:27. You only get one chance.
Before you recite 1 Cor. 15:29 as your proof for baptism for the dead just read it in proper context, ok. The word "they" is vital in understanding the text.
I hope didn't offend you in my last statement brother, it may have been a little agressive. I just want to set the record straight, that this Church is not, and has NEVER BEEN a racist organization.
I'm not saying you have to believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet. I'm not saying that you have to believe The Book of Mormon is a real historical document.
I'm just saying that look at the 50,000 plus missionaries, all around the world, INCLUDING AFRICA, that are bringing souls unto Christ.
Wherever Mormons go,so do other Christian Churches.Instead of pointing your finger at us all the time,maybe you should partner with us in bringing souls to Christ.
Mormons don't want to partner with people who only believe that the Bible is the word of God. Mormons want to convert us because according to them we are lost.
My objective here is to show the fallacy of mormonism or any other "religion" that wants to call themselves Christians and bring them to the real Jesus.
All a person needs for scripture sake is the Bible. All the other mormon scripture is contradictory to the Bible. That's why Christians don't believe it.
The statement you just wrote, is simply wrong. I'm not going to call you a liar, but you obviously heard false information about our Church.
We don't believe you can convert anybody by any other means besides the scripture. If a Mormon is arguing with you about scripture, or YOUR Church, than he is going against the teachings of Christ.....
Mormon doctrine and Biblical Christianity doctrine are two different things. To say that we are the same is rediculous, because if they were then there would be no need of a "restoration".
Joseph Smith's first vision in part was God supposedly saying that all churchs were wrong, their creeds are an abomination, and all their professors are corrupt. How could you logically say they we are even remotely teaching the same doctrine?
Every Church has something that is an abomination to God, save it be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Give me any Church, and I will tell you their corruption.....
See, that's the arrogance of the mormon church. You guys think you are the only way to true salvation.
I just gave you a laundry list of things wrong with it. Your doctrine in not true christian doctrine.
The people in every church are sinners, so its the people that are flawed not God's word. That doesn't mean they are not saved because as you know nobody is without sin. If you have a relationship with Christ and abide by his word you are saved.
Yes, we are supposed to obey his commandments. I never said we weren't. But where in the passage does it say in order to be saved you have to be as perfect as you can be?
You didn't read my last message. I said that The Bible clearly states that in order to be saved, you have to enter into baptism, except Christ into your heart, and repent of your sins.
I believe that. I've done that. Now I want to know exactly what I can do to best serve him on earth.
Well, I'm goin back to work, but I appreciate the converation we've had. Thanks for not using any profanity(not that you would, but you know youtube), and I hope you have an awesome day brother.
BTW, thats a SWEET picture of Washington praying. My brother has the same one on his wall:)
We don't question God's Commandements. Whatever God told The Prophets to do WORKED, didn't it? The Church is spreading throughout the world, promoting Christ, and good will toward your fellow man.
So we don't watch r rated movies, drink coffee, and smoke anything. You think Christ will be dissapointed in this?
Check out what we're doing in Africa and South America if you think we are racist.
I was saying that the mormon church was racist in not letting blacks hold the priesthood and they still have racist overtones in their scripture.
It doesn' matter how good or morale you are it really matters on what you believe. The jehovah witness are very morale people but they are lost because their beliefs contradict the Bible.
Was the mormon church in Africa preaching to the blacks before 1978? I think not. Just because they are there now doesn't erase their previous racist views.
Ok, than The Jews were racist too. Thats what your saying right? Blacks weren't allowed to hold The Priesthood in the Bible, so is the Bible racist? Is God racist?
No offense, but your not making much sense. Remember, God is not politically correct. There is a reason that blacks were not responsible for Priesthood authority until 1978.
Whatever the reason, it worked. The Church is growing, and helping, and saving all over the world.
It never has and probably never will be the right of all to hold the priesthood. Can you point to the place in the bible when the priesthood was offered to all?
Perhaps you should read the bible and work on your own beliefs instead of trying to tear down others.
Even if the Mormons don't have religion perfectly correct, they sure seem to be a wonderful people to live around. I can't say that so broadly about any other group of people I have ever associated with.
It does not say that the priesthood was done away with, rather that the aaronic priesthood alone could not bring someone to salvation. Thus Christ, being after the priesthood of Melchezidek, was able to bring salvation to his people as the ultimate High Priest. Even still, the aaronic priesthood can be used today as a preparatory priesthood to that of the Melchezidek. The reality of priesthood offices is shown in the N.T. Evangelists, apostles, deacons, bishops,etc.
The Melchisedec Priesthood can only be held by Jesus because He is the only one who can fulfill the qualifications...
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God.Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was. Hebrews 7:1,3-4
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. Heb. 7:26-27
Jesus is the ONLY one who can fulfill these requirements.
Yes, only He had the requirements to save us from our sins. It does not follow that the other high priests of the Melchezidek priesthood, Melchezidek himself included, had to be perfect to hold that priesthood.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:16,17 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb. 13:8
I totally agree that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that by Him all things were created. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, no doubt. He is Jehovah.
Since He is constant, He continues to speak forth His word today through prophets and apostles just as in days of old. We see that pattern throughout the bible.
How can you agree with me that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, when mormon doctrine says that he was the first born of Father God and Mother God. He was first a spirit child and exalted to godhood. So by this you have to conclude that Jesus had a beginning and He was not always the same.
Every god including the god of this earth started out like this. This is not Biblical and in fact blashemy. You need to read Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse.
He is the same in that He has the same character and godly attributes throughout. He will never be a respecter of persons, and will deal with all justly, etc.
Our spirits are eternal, so Jesus Christ in that sense never had a beginning. According to your doctrine on God, He changed when He was in the flesh since He went for a time from being an omnipresent spirit to a bodily being. Can you say double standard?
If Jesus was a spirit child first then he was not a god. He was only a god until he exalted to godhood. Therefore, he was not the same throughout his existance.
If Jesus had no beginning then what was He before being a spirit child?
There is no double standard at all. Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man. John 1 spells this out quite nicely.
Actually He was a God premortally, since it would be His right also as the Firstborn of spirits. He came down to earth to recieve a body, and eventually recieved of the fullness as he increased in wisdom and stature and grew from grace to grace.
Again, that is like saying God changes since He first told the apostles to go the Jews and then to the Gentiles, or that only Levites could have the priesthood at first
We were all intelligences that were formed into spirit beings. Ex nihilo is false.
I am going to write this in its simplest form so you can understand this, ok. Jesus was God yesterday, today and forever. Period.
There is no room for him to START as a spirit child and exalt to being a god. A spirit child is not a god or else he would be have been born a god to start with. Every being according to mormonism has to start off being a spirit child and exalt from there.
The Holy Ghost does not have a physical body, but yet is considered a member of the Godhead.
Your point is moot, since the same could be argued against the Bible and your conception of God since you believe that He was once an omnipresent spirit and then came down and received a body, which would be a definite change. The constancy is not one of physical change but spiritual intention, mission etc.
Again you don't get it. The passage is simply saying that Jesus is God from eternity to eternity. He is the same nature which is God. To say that Jesus was or will be anything less than God is blasphemy. That is one of the reasons why mormonism is not I repeat not Christian.
The same goes with God being an exalted man. This is blasphemy. Psa. 90:2 "from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God." There is no room for exaltation. Joseph is a false prophet and mormonism is a false religion.
Even your own scripture states that Jesus is the Great I AM (God) from etenity to eternity. Jesus was never a spirit child. He has always been God. This just goes to show the contradictions in Mormon doctrine. Thanks for bringing this up.
You didn't answer my question about what Jesus was before He was a spirit child.
Besides, all this talk about there being a pre-existance is utter non-sense and untrue. It can't be proven in the Bible, and in fact I challenge you to show me in the Bible where we existed before we were on this earth.
Don't bother quoting from the Book of Mormon because that is not God inspired scripture. I want to see it from the Bible.
We (including Christ) were intelligences that were formed into spirit beings by our Heavenly Father. I don't claim to know all the particulars of how He does that, but we know from Acts 17:38 and Hebrews 12:9 that we are his spiritual offspring.
Acts 17:28 (not 38) the term offspring is simply a symbolic way of saying that we originated from God. Its figurative language. Since God is not a man by nature (Hosea 11:9 Num. 23:19) and we are, we are not literal begotten children of God.
As far as Heb. 12:9 goes, yes God is the Father of our spirits but in no way does this mean He is our literal Father. As Father of our spirits, God is our creator and originator. Zech 12:1 teaches that he created our spirits within us, not through birth.
If He was not our literal Father than there would be no point in assigning such a title to Him, especially when talking about our spiritual nature.
Our spirit body is made up of intelligences, which are eternal. God organized those intelligences into spirits pre-mortally. To say they had a beginning would be to teach the false doctrine of annihilation, which would negate the Atonement. He put the spirit of man into the body, not created it within him. Therefore, it would have already existed.
It was clearly not figurative in Acts, since Paul clearly is distinguishing that since we are the offspring of God, he does not resemble any heathen or unkown god since we are literally in His image.
Job 38:7 the sons of God to which Job refers are in the angelic realm, Gods ministering spirits. In other words the angels not spirit children.
Ecc.12:7 our spirits originated (created) from God at birth, we live a short while on earth, and then return to him for eternity.There is no teaching of the pre-existence of man.
Jer. 1:5The passage doesnt say Jeremiah knew the Lord in the preexistence. God consecrated and appointed Jeremiah before mortal birth. Easy task for an all-knowing God.
And please, your evidence that they are angels? I believe the Hebrew is bene-Elohim, which clearly denotes actual sons of God.
For Ecclesiastes, it says that we will RETURN to the God who made us. Obviously, in order to return, we would have had to once been there and left. We are strangers and foreigners on this earth, remember?
You can't consecrate or appoint something that isn't in existence.
Also, you completely ignored the proverb verses that quite clearly make premortality evident.
In the Old Testament, the "sons of God" (bene Elohim) is never used of humans, but always of supernatural beings that are higher than man but lower than God. It's obvious that angels are the only beings that fit in this category. It applies to both good and evil angels.
In Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 the "sons of God" came to present themselves before the Lord in Heaven. Among the sons of God is Satan a further proof that the "sons of God" must have been angels.
D&C 39:1 agrees with the Bible that Jesus has always been God. But yet the mormons don't believe their own scripture. They believe Jesus was a created being (spirit child) and then exalted to godhood. Mormonism falls short of being christian because it denies the deity of Jesus and in fact God.
When I refer to Jesus as a "substance" its just a way of trying to explain Him as being one part of the Godhead. I am in no way downgrading His existance as God.
The most important thing in all this is who is Jesus Christ? He is God in human flesh John 1. He is the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13. Before Abraham was I AM John 8:58. All things were created by Him Col. 1:16. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, forever Heb. 13:8... Jesus is God from eternity to eternity.
Mormonism doesn't teach this. You can't be saved without the true Jesus. The Biblical Jesus is the only one that can save. That is the end of the argument!!!
You say the trinitarian view is pagan? Have you not read the BofM lately? 2 Nephi 31:21 "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." 3 Nephi 11:27 "And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one."
@Vutxzzn2 I've listened to an interview of an expert on George Washington on NPR and he said that he was a Deist and only prayed with his soldiers to comfort them. The Utah legistature required History classes to teach about his prayers, but my AP History teacher also said that he was a Deist who never said personal prayer.
iplaydrumsnguitar 6 days ago
@iplaydrumsnguitar i strongly urge you to read David McCullough's 1776 as Washington writes in his correspondence with subordinates and family concerning the role Providence has played in their victories (Trenton/Princeton) and even the safe retreat across the hudson river from white plains back into manhattan.
DDAY2ndRangers 5 hours ago
The story of George Washington praying is a lie because he was a Deist who didn't pray. I have a strong testimony of prayer, but we can't spread the lie that George Washington was a prayerful man.
iplaydrumsnguitar 4 months ago
@iplaydrumsnguitar George Washington was a firm believer in Christianity. and he did pray. quoting Peter Lillback "here are over one hundred different prayers composed and written by Washington in his own hand, with his own words, in his writings...."
*Lillback, Peter A. (2007-02-10). "Why Have Scholars Underplayed George Washington’s Faith?".
Vutxzzn2 1 week ago
would like to hear Elder Maxwell's words without the background music...I have difficulty hearing what he is saying, because the music is too loud. sorry.
Irreantum52 9 months ago
Atheists will soon take over and they will pass laws to criminalize all religions. I think all religions need to ban together, stop fighting among themselves and fight the rising tide of secularism.
glower125 10 months ago 2
@glower125 Thank you! Where have you been hiding!? God bless and take care of yourself.
Dalessiokiller 9 months ago
Amazing how accurate Maxwell's predictions were back then, all of these things are coming true under the worldly false leadership of our current, foreign-born President Obama who is unamerican, anti-family, anti-mormon yet utterly pro-gay and pro-abortion to his core.
Evil personified, albeit a puppet pulled by strings, his bloodline has been cursed, therefore we should expect no less than what Neil Maxwell has forewarned...
Can we really expect Obama NOT to help usher such evil into our lives??
Mormonites 10 months ago 3
Oh, I miss Elder Maxwell so much.....
teceyS3 1 year ago
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shakira20848 1 year ago
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“Our faith is down. Our churches are emptying. Do you know why? Because our churches don’t stand for anything anymore.”- Glenn Beck
PASSDAMMO 1 year ago
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“Our faith is down. Our churches are emptying. Do you know why? Because our churches don’t stand for anything anymore.”- Glenn Beck and I agree also, for it is true!
PASSDAMMO 1 year ago
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PASSDAMMO 1 year ago
"Why do the disbelievers who line that spacious building watch so intently what the believers are doing?"
heitah 1 year ago 4
@heitah because that is what Satan is doing...
tyewalkerfm1 7 months ago
Music is just a bit loud, detracting.
akdamagecontrol 1 year ago
1978 - the same year the LDS church decided to allow black people to play along.
SaySomethingTV 1 year ago
@SaySomethingTV your statement is not accurate, only persons of African ancestry were kept from the Priesthood, dark skinned peoples of the Americas, the Pacific Islands ect. who were not of African descent were fully permitted entrance into the Priesthood, and no ethnic group has ever been barred from membership on the Church, only some from the Priesthood. The Priesthood in past ages was more greatly restricted, such as in ancient Israel where only Levites held the Priesthood.
noblefailure 1 year ago
@SaySomethingTV if you honestly care about history, the reason for the Priesthood ban in the first place was to prevent persecution, one of the causes of persecution of LDS settlers in Missouri in the 1830's was because they were abolitionists. The ban was adopted in order to distance the Church from what was in 19th Century America a hotly contested political issue. Overtime a lot of folklore (ie blacks being descendants of Cain) developed, but that isn't historically accurate or Scriptural.
noblefailure 1 year ago 2
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britishempires 1 year ago
So much has changed since 1978. These words were, without question, prophetic.
unirrational 1 year ago
BEAUTIFUL, PROPHETIC!
harolddoza 1 year ago
Anyone with a brain could predict the rise of Secularism in the United States. Of course, anyone with a brain is a part of the movement.
Stoptherobots 1 year ago
Hey, how about posting one of the speeches where he defended the exclusion of black people from ministry? I bet they were mighty "powerful" too.
bigbowlowrong 1 year ago
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
420stealthmicrogrow 1 year ago
Soon after the Catholic Church canonized Saint Damien of Molokai in October 2009, largely for his 19th century work at the leprosy or Hansen's Disease quarantine settlement on the isolated Kalaupapa Peninsula, senior service missionaries in the Polynesian Cultural Center's Hawaii Mission Settlement began wondering how they might add that information to the exhibit in the small, thatched-roof chapel that tells how Christianity came to the islands.
omiolo 1 year ago
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Please feel free to speak your mind, but lose the "Heart Sell" TM music. The speech shouldn't need that extra zing to carry the point, if there is one. This tactic is blatantly manipulative and is a foundational element of the LDS Church's "spirit" gambit.
HughNivers 1 year ago
Please feel free to speak your mind, but lose the "Heart Sell" TM music. The speech shouldn't need that extra zing to carry the point, if there is one. This tactic is blatantly manipulative and is a foundational element of the LDS Church's "spirit" gambit.
HughNivers 1 year ago
They were participating in a handcart trek — a tradition within the Mormon church that helps young members re-enact their pioneering ancestors' journey across the American wilderness and treacherous Rocky Mountains before arriving in Salt Lake City 163 years ago.
In Philadelphia, handcart treks are scheduled once every four years.
omiolo 1 year ago
"I was impressed with the enthusiasm of Elder Perry. I wrote down some of his ideas and I will try to share my enthusiasm for life with others," said Sergey Grachov in Moscow.
Missionaries were touched by the love of the Brethren and recommitted themselves to showing it to others.
omiolo 1 year ago
Indeed a prophet, seer and revelator.
trappedhere2 1 year ago 2
christanity was forced up all none midle eastern peoples... there is no god, and we were inslaved by the roman christians....oh and fuck you mohamad!!!
FUwogs 1 year ago
go celtic pagans
FUwogs 1 year ago
lol christian trying to say all unreligious people are anti-religion. haha fucking stereotyping is so funny
rman11126 1 year ago
Thank God we live in a country where Church and state are not one ..this has always been a tragedy and always brought tragedy in its wake . We are not a christian nation or a Jewish nation or a muslim nation ..We are a nation of free men women and children ..The secular has its place with the religious but let it never be said that we are a religious nation alone ..And never let it be said that we should be a religious nation alone .
picassoui 1 year ago
I believe this is one of the most power presentations you have done Seth! Thank you so much for recalling to our memory the words of Elder Maxwell!
akidseducation 1 year ago 14
In response to the Haitian requests, Emergency response supplies, including water, water purification supplies, food, tents and tarps were shipped by air from the United States, explained Reese. Other needed items were already on the ground in the Dominican Republic.
omiolo 1 year ago 2
George R. Donaldson, 52, Denbigshire, Wales; Ini B. Ekong, 41, Etigan, Nigeria; Christian Fingerle, 42, Usingen, Germany; Craig G. Fisher, 59, Morgan, Utah; Jerryl L. Garns, 59, Stevenson Ranch, California; Jack N. Gerard, 52, McLean, Virginia; M. Keith Giddens, 53, Acworth, Georgia; Brent J. Hillier, 49, Centennial, Colorado; Jui Chang Juan, 51, Taichung, Taiwan; George M. Keele, 62, Gardnerville, Nevada; Dane O. Leavitt, 53, Cedar City, Utah; Alexander T. Mestre, 40, Mérida,
omiolo 1 year ago
How proud I am to know we have young men like Seth to keep us informed, to keep us thinking, and to make us realize how grateful we need to be. I am proud to help share his thoughts and video's with everyone I know and grateful I can carry this message.
SteveHillyer 1 year ago 2
"When we choose Christ, acting in faith to humble ourselves before Him, we put ourselves in the hands of the Master Finisher. As we do his will, he will help us be stripped of pride and become meek and lowly in heart, filled with his pure and perfect love."
omiolo 1 year ago 14
Nevertheless it is hoped that the information contained in these pages accurately summarizes the scholarly material that has been produced.
omiolo 1 year ago
Wow! It's put into words!!
Welch33 1 year ago
Bruce R. McConkie: When the full account comes to us [of that great meeting of Adam and his posterity at Adam-ondi-Ahman], we suppose we shall read of the offering of sacrifices in similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten; of the testimonies borne by both men and women; of great doctrinal sermons delivered by the preachers of righteousness who then ministered among them; and of the outpouring of spiritual gifts upon the faithful then assembled.
omiolo 1 year ago
Scot and Maurine Proctor will be leading a Holy Land tour this coming fall, October 20-28, 2010. Theres no place theyd rather visit than The Holy Land, and there is no one they would rather go there with than you. Why not consider coming with them?
omiolo 1 year ago
Alex Baugh, BYU professor, is part of audience attending the Church History Symposium at BYU, Feb. 26.
omiolo 1 year ago
PROVO, UTAH
Though people, places and events are often thought of as comprising the history of the Church, much of that history is found within its institutional and administrative structure: the priesthood quorums, leadership councils, auxiliary organizations and written guidelines by which its work has been accomplished.
omiolo 1 year ago
Symposium deals with the institution of the Church
Scholars discuss history of leading councils, auxiliaries
omiolo 1 year ago
He had students he felt were praying for the same Spirit to come to the class as he was.
"It was from those wonderful days at Ricks College that I learned something to add to my prayers as a teacher," President Eyring said. "I learned to ask that my students would join in praying in faith that the Spirit would come to teach us all."
omiolo 1 year ago
His second experience came when he taught religion classes while serving as president of Ricks College (now BYU-Idaho). He was teaching hundreds of students instead of just a few.
"It became harder to know and to pray for individuals according to their personal needs for the help of the Spirit," he said.
omiolo 1 year ago
"But, more than that, my concern for them ignited a personal concern for their classmates. I began to teach them and pray for each of them as individuals. The Spirit came into the classroom. So, I learned that for me there is greater power in praying for a child of God than for a group of them."
omiolo 1 year ago
Similar underlying messages are in other stories such as the one where students borrow his lecture notes only to find they are in a foreign language.
Another story finds the young student Nibley skipping class to read whole sections of the library at Berkley -- a reflection of Mormons' admiration of Nibley's raw intellect.
omiolo 1 year ago 2
One tale had Nibley parachuting into Greece during World War II. As he descends, Nibley shouts to the Greeks on the ground in an attempt to let them know he is their friend. But since he did not know Modern Greek, he could only shout memorized passages of the Iliad and the Odyssey in ancient Greek. It worked and they didn't shoot him. Wilson said this story is used to illustrate Nibley's ability with languages.
omiolo 1 year ago 2
"The psychology of the film speaks to people," Wilson said. "They can identify with Mahana, with feeling worthless but realizing they can rebuild their inner strength."
Wilson spoke several years ago at a fireside in Sacramento, Calif., where her daughter, Melanie, introduced her to two women in burqas visiting from the Middle East.
omiolo 1 year ago
Wilson has received letters from places like Ghana and the Philippines, asking her about Mahana. "I went for a long time not understanding that this was my role, that years later I would still be talking about her," she said.
Once at an airport, Wilson met an LDS man who worked at the Pentagon. He told her the U.S. Army has shown "Johnny Lingo" to communities in Third World countries that are trying to rebuild after enduring some disaster.
omiolo 1 year ago
He is a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at BYU where he also serves as editor in chief of the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative and as director of outreach for the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship.
omiolo 1 year ago
A native of California, Daniel Peterson served a mission for the LDS Church in German-speaking Switzerland in the early 1970s, then earned a bachelor's degree in Greek and philosophy from Brigham Young University and, after several years spent in the Middle East, a doctorate in Arabic and Persian from UCLA.
omiolo 1 year ago
Other performances included songs from the Gnostic, Jewish and Bahai faiths, a Buddhist recitation, Sikh temple chant, reading from the Quran, Hindu and Buddhist dancers, and a few numbers the audience was invited to stand and sing with the childrens choir. The performance concluded with a Greek Orthodox prayer.
omiolo 1 year ago
Stephan and Hardy, who happen to be Mormon, in 1996 co-founded Truehope, a religious-sounding Alberta nutritional supplement company, to sell their micronutrient treatment for bipolar disorder, EMPowerplus, which they manufacture in Los Angeles. It's a mixture of vitamins and minerals that sells for about $150 for a month's daily supply. The mixture contained relatively high doses of 34 vitamins and minerals including B vitamins, calcium, iron, magnesium, copper and potassium.
omiolo 1 year ago
Not only did they keep it up, it quickly became apparent that Torah had an affinity for the sport that requires as much courage as it does athletic ability. Ben became her coach, and the two live and train in Salt Lake City.
Torah had a disappointing time in Torino, finishing fifth, and has worked hard in the interim perfecting tricks that no other female snowboarder can land. It was one of those -- a backside 720 -- that helped her earn the gold medal in the Vancouver Games last week.
omiolo 1 year ago
"We bought them some used gear and a lesson," Marion said after Torah's medal ceremony in Vancouver. "We didn't want to spend too much because we weren't sure they'd keep it up."
omiolo 1 year ago
Naturally athletic, Torah, her older sister Rowena and her brother Ben all preferred skiing. Rowena Bright skied for the Australian Olympic Team in Salt Lake City in 2002. Torah and Ben switched from skiing to snowboarding when she was 11 years old.
omiolo 1 year ago
"We couldn't keep them inside," Marion said, laughing. And they didn't try. Her mother introduced her to cross-country skiing at age 2, and all of the children did what many youngsters in Australia do; they swam.
omiolo 1 year ago
''Out of many, One'' doesn't refer to God you arrogant Mormon fuck! It refers to unity of diverse American society!
Try all you want you will never turn US into a fascist state.
IC1101 1 year ago
So what can I conclude from the present proliferation of all this confusion? This is a test; it always has been a test. Furthermore, I also believe that the time for this testing, at least on the subject of Book of Mormon geography, is fast drawing to a close.
omiolo 1 year ago
(1) every one of these proposals cannot all be true; there can only be one true solution; and (2) our foes, on both sides of the veil, rejoice when they see the confusion and contention that abounds in our ranks.
omiolo 1 year ago
This is a rare word found only in later Greek.... Its usual sense is 'unchangeable,' 'immutable.'" Hebrews 7.24 says of Christ that because He remains to eternity He has an unchangeable and imperishable priesthood.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
Instead of the passive 'unchangeable' [743] many expositors suggest the active sense 'which cannot be transferred to another;" 'Christ has a priesthood which cannot be transferred to anyone else' [citing Bengel]. This is a natural interpretation and yields a good sense, but it does not really fit the context. We should keep to the rendering 'unchangeable,' the more so as the active sense is not attested elsewhere."
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
What do you mean by "He remains to eternity?"
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
We are NOT a Christian nation though we are a nation mostly of Christians. Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, etc were NOT Christians. So if people lack religion that is just as American as being Christian or Jewish.
MrGoodatheist 2 years ago
Wrong. There are plenty of blatant statements by the founders of their Christian beliefs. From Thomas Jefferson:
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
Washington=Episcopalian, or Church of England; Franklin=Puritan, and at one point Presbyterian; Adams= Unitarian. All mentioned were Christians, just as a matter of keeping history correct.
colbytownsend 1 year ago
No Sir. They were raised in those churches and sometimes attended those services out of habit or a sense of duty but in belief all 3 were deists and not in any sense were they Christian. You may correctly say that all 3 were raised Christian and were likely believing Christians in their young lives but not as adults when they were shaping this nation. Washington, for example, always left BEFORE communion so as not to be a hypocrite since he didn't believe.
MrGoodatheist 1 year ago
Lilly said he is working with Stephen Studdert, a Utah businessman and former LDS mission president, to arrange for an army of returned missionaries to help rebuild the capital of Port-au-Prince.
omiolo 2 years ago
Utah businessman Jeremy Johnson has helped move injured Latter-day Saints out of Haiti on helicopters, while the church has provided Johnson's group with donated goods to distribute, Bennie Lilly, the church's Caribbean-area
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welfare manager, said in a telephone interview from the Dominican Republic.
omiolo 2 years ago
Extending federal benefits to same-sex couples will cost taxpayers $898 million over the next nine years, according to an analysis of "domestic partnership" legislation released by the Congressional Budget Office.
omiolo 2 years ago
Extending Federal Benefits to Same-Sex Couples Will Cost $898M, CBO Says
omiolo 2 years ago
There are so many things wrong with the mormon doctrine: God is an exalted man, Jesus was not God in human flesh, pluarity of gods, polygamy, racism, everything that has to do with their temples, the idea that we still need a priesthood, no eternal hell, three degrees of heaven etc etc etc...
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
brian8793 2 years ago
We have known that scripture to be there and never thought twice about there being 3 degrees of heaven. But yet Joseph Smith comes along and says ta da there must be 3 levels of heaven. Why would it take God so long to reveal this concept to his people? Makes no sense.
Where does telestial fit in to that last statement. Your missing a third level.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
I can't say for certain, but here's my "opinion"...
God knew that from the time Peter died, to The Resoration in 1830, there would be no chance of his True Church being on the planet.
Some would teach more truths than others, but the complete truth would not have the opportunity to exist. How could it, until 1776?
I'm sure he didn't go into the third level of heaven in depth, because it would be impossible to reach it until 1830.
Just speculation, but what the heck....
brian8793 2 years ago
"The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever".(Isa 40:8)
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Matt 16:18)
Biblical proof that it was never lost.
God can destroy the earth (flood) and keep his word in tack. Yet when after the apostles died the church went into apostosy and was lost until Joseph arrived. You better rethink your logic.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
So you think The Catholic Church is Christ's True Church?
brian8793 2 years ago
No. I don't think there is one true church. The only test you have is whether that church is teaching what the Bible says only. The Bible is our road map in life so to speak. Of course, you have to have a relationship with Christ, but its through the Bible that we know how to live our lives.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Ephesians 5:25
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord..." 1 Corinthians 1:2
Buildings aren't what God's looking for. That is why we do not spend too much money on any given Church. They are all very similar. Temples are a different story.......
brian8793 2 years ago
The things done in your temple are not Biblical. The "rituals" are drawn strongly from the Masonic Lodge. This makes sense because about two months after Joseph became a mason he came up with the endowment ceremony.
In the Old Testament there was only one temple. The only person who was allowed in the temple was the high priest. The high priest would sacrifice an animal to symbolize taking away sins. Why don't the mormons do this? It would be more in-line with Old Testament teaching.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
He said, "Take these things away! My Father's house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a 'den of thieves.'"
If Temples weren't Biblical, or in-line with God's teachings, than why didn't Jesus just destroy The Temple?
He referred to it as "MY FATHER'S HOUSE"
Not only is that yet another reference that God is his FATHER, but he is saying that The Temple is HIS HOUSE!
brian8793 2 years ago
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Matt. 27:51. The temple was destroyed after His death because His plan was not finished until His death.
Just because he refers everything to his father does not mean that God is literally his father. Jesus is God and not a created being or our spiritual brother. That's blashemy.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Heirs of God. JOINT-HEIRS with Christ.
Do you need to take an English class or something?
brian8793 2 years ago 2
Why wouldn't Paul just say, "Joint heirs with God, who IS CHRIST?"
He didn't say that.
brian8793 2 years ago 2
There are some many issues we are debating on. Lets just debate on one and move on.
When you give your life to Chirst you become a child of God. I don't disagree with that its Biblical. But for Joseph to blow this way out proportion to say that we are literal spirit children of God and a wife is false doctrine. Show me in the Bible that we are literal spirt children and that God has a wife whom he procreates children with. That's a fairy tale. God created man out of the dust of the ground.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Well, actually I think I've had enough debating for a while. You can go on trying to disprove our Church(LOL), but I ask that you do it without me.
I will worry about my salvation, and I hope you worry about your as well. If you want to talk with me,(which I welcome), it's going to have to be on things we agree on, which I'm SURE there is PLENTY.
I hope you have a wonderful Christmas, and I just want to say again, that I really enjoyed our discussions......
Peace:)
brian8793 2 years ago
Ok. That's fine. But let me leave you with this. Just check out your beliefs with the Bible. No, I mean really do some research. I want to challenge you to really examine what Joseph and Brigham had to say about who God and Jesus are and compare this to the Bible.
Thanks and God bless....
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
You too brother. Have a Wonderful Christmas and New Year:)
brian8793 2 years ago
Heb. 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
lamar212 2 years ago
Could you clarify what your point is to this verse you quoted?
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
brian8793 2 years ago
What's you point with this passage?
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Just as a matter of keeping history correct, there was more than one temple in the Old Testament. There have been many temples found outside of Jerusalem that were used by the Jews before the coming of Christ, many 6-700 years before the birth of Christ. It's amazing the things that we can learn from history, it's there, we just need to look.
colbytownsend 1 year ago
This is off topic of what I have been discussing on this board, but I can tell you the mormon temple(s) are in no way like the temple in the Old Testament.
Here are a few examples of how the mormon temples violate what the Biblical temple was meant for in the O.T...
God appointed only one temple to reflect the fact that there is only one true God. (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5,6) All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge. (Exodus 30:7-10; Leviticus 4:5-7; 16:1-34; 24:1-9)
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
The Bible sets forth strict lineage requirements for the Aaronic priesthood. It teaches very explicitly that only men from the tribe of Levi and the family line of Aaron were qualified to serve as priests in the temple sanctuary Num 3:10; Exo 29:9; Num 18:1-7.
The temple is obsolete because it was done away with after Jesus' death. The temple was destroyed Mat. 24:2. The Bible records that at the very moment Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottomMat 27:51.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
You didn't address my list of things that were wrong in regards to mormon doctrine.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Revelation 22:12
Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. "
1 Corinthians
He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.
brian8793 2 years ago
We are only "saved" by the Grace of God. We understand and believe this to be true. However, we believe that there is much, much more that we must do to better serve Christ here on earth.
As far as going to heaven, The Bible clearly states that you must except Christ in your heart, be baptized of water, and truly repent of your sins.
That will get you into heaven. However, what place in heaven you hold depends upon the work and faith you have in this lifetime.....
brian8793 2 years ago
Mormons believe you are saved by grace after all you can do. That means its of Jesus and yourself. We believe you need Christ alone to be saved and works is a natural outgrowth of this faith. But works do not, i repeat, do not save you!
The thief on the cross with Jesus was never baptized and he was saved and went to heaven. Could you explain that for me? Yes, its true that Jesus wants us to be baptized but its not a necessary "work" to be saved.(Eph 2:8,9)
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
The christian has always believed in three heavens. The first heaven is the atmosheric heaven i.e. the clouds, birds, planes(Gen 1), the second heaven is where the planets, moons, and stars are(Deu 17:3 Isa 13:10 Eze 32:7), and the third heaven is where God dwells(2 Cor. 12:2-4). We never believed in the concept of actually three levels of heaven where people live eternally.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Don't you want to dwell with God in heaven?
Create and walk side by side with Christ, or do you just want to stroke a harp and play ping pong with Jimi Hendrix all day?LOL
brian8793 2 years ago
There is only one God that we worship.
The fact that Jesus is also a God, is proof that there are more than one God. We can become God's.....
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
When Christ was on earth he prayed to THE FATHER, not the "thing" in the sky, or the "entity" in the sky.
brian8793 2 years ago
Jesus is God, not a god. You can't honestly read John 1 and be in good conscience with it because it flies in the face of your plurality of gods view.
He was praying to God as a man would. Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Jesus prayed to his FATHER in heaven.
About The Church in Africa. God doesn't just send people to every Country in the world. Should we go to Iran, Afghanistan, or Cuba? That probably wouldn't go over too well.
I'm not concerned with what was needed to happen in the past, I'm concerned with where we are at now, and where we will be in the future.
Among Joseph Smith's many prophesies, he said that The Church would reach every corner of the earth. Just watch and see......
brian8793 2 years ago
Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are one. Kind of like a team. They are seperate entities, but all work towards the same goal.
brian8793 2 years ago
I've had people discuss The Catholic Church as possibly being The Great and Abominable Church. This could not be further from the truth. The Catholic Church is in no way shape or form The Church of Satan.
I feel Elder Maxwell so eloquently describes The Great and Abominable Church in this powerful talk.
brian8793 2 years ago
The fact that God didn't feel blacks were ready to have the responsibilty of The Priesthood until 1978, just proves, once again, that he is NOT politically correct.
God is not concerned with whatever the "world" says. He does what is RIGHT. He always has and he always will.......
brian8793 2 years ago
What do you mean the black weren't ready to have the responsibility of the priesthood?
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
You must take into consideration American racism and bigotry was a real thing. The Priesthood is basically a covenant with God, in which you except the responsibilities that go with it.
To expect a black person, living in a mostly racist society, to perform all the duties that are required, is unfair and unpractical. God is niether of these.
Joseph Smith obviously wasn't a bigot, seeing as he baptized atleast 3 black men into The Church, including the first Black Elder, Elijah Abel
brian8793 2 years ago
So what you are saying is that is was perfectly fine for mormons to treat blacks as unequals because that was the sentiment of the country in the 1800's? Why don't you admit that mormons were racist in their teachings and that it was terrible to treat blacks as not worthy enough to hold the priesthood. But instead you come up with asinine excuses.
Elijah Abel was denied his endowments and therefore was unable to hold the priesthood. Ya, that's equality at its best.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Look, I want to have a productive discussion with you, but you are being very disrespectful. My Church is not racist. Black children of God have always been allowed in our Church.
Do you think blacks were allowed to hold The Priesthood in The Old Testament?Was God racist than?
When a black member of The Church went to heaven before 1978,I'm CONFIDENT they had the opportunity to get sealed in The Temple, and go to The Celestial Kingdom. This is why we baptize the dead.
Have a great day:)
brian8793 2 years ago
You are still dancing around the issue of racism in the mormon church. You just can't get yourself to admit that not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood was wrong. Its sad...
Baptism for the dead is not a Christian doctrine. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"Hbr 9:27. You only get one chance.
Before you recite 1 Cor. 15:29 as your proof for baptism for the dead just read it in proper context, ok. The word "they" is vital in understanding the text.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Did the Jews allow blacks to hold The Priesthood?
Was God racist than?
No, The Church never supported slavery, and Joseph Smith described it as an "EVIL," time and time again.
Blacks could have never been expected to perform the duties expected of them in a racist Country.
I don't care if you want to except that or not, but it's the truth.
Long live ELIJAH ABEL!!!!
brian8793 2 years ago
I hope didn't offend you in my last statement brother, it may have been a little agressive. I just want to set the record straight, that this Church is not, and has NEVER BEEN a racist organization.
How could it be with Christ at the head?
brian8793 2 years ago
I'm not saying you have to believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet. I'm not saying that you have to believe The Book of Mormon is a real historical document.
I'm just saying that look at the 50,000 plus missionaries, all around the world, INCLUDING AFRICA, that are bringing souls unto Christ.
Wherever Mormons go,so do other Christian Churches.Instead of pointing your finger at us all the time,maybe you should partner with us in bringing souls to Christ.
One Lord,one faith,one baptism
brian8793 2 years ago
Mormons don't want to partner with people who only believe that the Bible is the word of God. Mormons want to convert us because according to them we are lost.
My objective here is to show the fallacy of mormonism or any other "religion" that wants to call themselves Christians and bring them to the real Jesus.
All a person needs for scripture sake is the Bible. All the other mormon scripture is contradictory to the Bible. That's why Christians don't believe it.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
The statement you just wrote, is simply wrong. I'm not going to call you a liar, but you obviously heard false information about our Church.
We don't believe you can convert anybody by any other means besides the scripture. If a Mormon is arguing with you about scripture, or YOUR Church, than he is going against the teachings of Christ.....
brian8793 2 years ago
Tell me where I am wrong.
Mormon doctrine and Biblical Christianity doctrine are two different things. To say that we are the same is rediculous, because if they were then there would be no need of a "restoration".
Joseph Smith's first vision in part was God supposedly saying that all churchs were wrong, their creeds are an abomination, and all their professors are corrupt. How could you logically say they we are even remotely teaching the same doctrine?
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Every Church has something that is an abomination to God, save it be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Give me any Church, and I will tell you their corruption.....
brian8793 2 years ago
See, that's the arrogance of the mormon church. You guys think you are the only way to true salvation.
I just gave you a laundry list of things wrong with it. Your doctrine in not true christian doctrine.
The people in every church are sinners, so its the people that are flawed not God's word. That doesn't mean they are not saved because as you know nobody is without sin. If you have a relationship with Christ and abide by his word you are saved.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
"Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Thats a commandment. We are commanded to be perfect. What part of that don't you understand?
The Bible commands us to live like Christ. Christ was perfect.
So?????
brian8793 2 years ago
Yes, we are supposed to obey his commandments. I never said we weren't. But where in the passage does it say in order to be saved you have to be as perfect as you can be?
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
You didn't read my last message. I said that The Bible clearly states that in order to be saved, you have to enter into baptism, except Christ into your heart, and repent of your sins.
I believe that. I've done that. Now I want to know exactly what I can do to best serve him on earth.
His Church helps me better serve him......
brian8793 2 years ago
Then you can throw Eph 2:8,9 out the window because it contradicts what you just said about being baptized to be saved.
You still didn't answer how the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized?
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
How am I boasting about my works? I never said a person is ok in "boasting" about their works.
brian8793 2 years ago
Well, I'm goin back to work, but I appreciate the converation we've had. Thanks for not using any profanity(not that you would, but you know youtube), and I hope you have an awesome day brother.
BTW, thats a SWEET picture of Washington praying. My brother has the same one on his wall:)
brian8793 2 years ago
There are many points of mine that you didn't address:
Thief on the cross being saved without being baptized.
Mormon temples are not the same as the Old Testament temple
The diety of Christ
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Being saved without baptism? You can't be, so what?
Any Temple built before 1830, would have been an abomination, because nobody held Priesthood Authority.
Where in The Bible does it say there should never be a Temple ever again?
brian8793 2 years ago
We don't question God's Commandements. Whatever God told The Prophets to do WORKED, didn't it? The Church is spreading throughout the world, promoting Christ, and good will toward your fellow man.
So we don't watch r rated movies, drink coffee, and smoke anything. You think Christ will be dissapointed in this?
Check out what we're doing in Africa and South America if you think we are racist.
Check out Deseret Industries.....
brian8793 2 years ago
I was saying that the mormon church was racist in not letting blacks hold the priesthood and they still have racist overtones in their scripture.
It doesn' matter how good or morale you are it really matters on what you believe. The jehovah witness are very morale people but they are lost because their beliefs contradict the Bible.
Was the mormon church in Africa preaching to the blacks before 1978? I think not. Just because they are there now doesn't erase their previous racist views.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
Ok, than The Jews were racist too. Thats what your saying right? Blacks weren't allowed to hold The Priesthood in the Bible, so is the Bible racist? Is God racist?
No offense, but your not making much sense. Remember, God is not politically correct. There is a reason that blacks were not responsible for Priesthood authority until 1978.
Whatever the reason, it worked. The Church is growing, and helping, and saving all over the world.
brian8793 2 years ago
@jesussavesbygrace
It never has and probably never will be the right of all to hold the priesthood. Can you point to the place in the bible when the priesthood was offered to all?
Perhaps you should read the bible and work on your own beliefs instead of trying to tear down others.
Even if the Mormons don't have religion perfectly correct, they sure seem to be a wonderful people to live around. I can't say that so broadly about any other group of people I have ever associated with.
nelsondaley 2 years ago
Hebrews 7 explains how the preisthood was changed and now Jesus is our sole high priest. There is no need for a priesthood today.
"The mormons don't have religion perfectly correct?" What does that mean?
Listen, if you have the wrong God and Jesus, it doesn't matter how "good" you are. You are still lost, and need the Biblical Jesus for salvation.
jesussavesbygrace 2 years ago
It does not say that the priesthood was done away with, rather that the aaronic priesthood alone could not bring someone to salvation. Thus Christ, being after the priesthood of Melchezidek, was able to bring salvation to his people as the ultimate High Priest. Even still, the aaronic priesthood can be used today as a preparatory priesthood to that of the Melchezidek. The reality of priesthood offices is shown in the N.T. Evangelists, apostles, deacons, bishops,etc.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
The Melchisedec Priesthood can only be held by Jesus because He is the only one who can fulfill the qualifications...
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God.Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was. Hebrews 7:1,3-4
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. Heb. 7:26-27
Jesus is the ONLY one who can fulfill these requirements.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
Yes, only He had the requirements to save us from our sins. It does not follow that the other high priests of the Melchezidek priesthood, Melchezidek himself included, had to be perfect to hold that priesthood.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:16,17 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb. 13:8
Proof text that Jesus is God.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
I totally agree that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that by Him all things were created. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, no doubt. He is Jehovah.
Since He is constant, He continues to speak forth His word today through prophets and apostles just as in days of old. We see that pattern throughout the bible.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
How can you agree with me that Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, when mormon doctrine says that he was the first born of Father God and Mother God. He was first a spirit child and exalted to godhood. So by this you have to conclude that Jesus had a beginning and He was not always the same.
Every god including the god of this earth started out like this. This is not Biblical and in fact blashemy. You need to read Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
He is the same in that He has the same character and godly attributes throughout. He will never be a respecter of persons, and will deal with all justly, etc.
Our spirits are eternal, so Jesus Christ in that sense never had a beginning. According to your doctrine on God, He changed when He was in the flesh since He went for a time from being an omnipresent spirit to a bodily being. Can you say double standard?
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
If Jesus was a spirit child first then he was not a god. He was only a god until he exalted to godhood. Therefore, he was not the same throughout his existance.
If Jesus had no beginning then what was He before being a spirit child?
There is no double standard at all. Jesus was 100 percent God and 100 percent man. John 1 spells this out quite nicely.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
Actually He was a God premortally, since it would be His right also as the Firstborn of spirits. He came down to earth to recieve a body, and eventually recieved of the fullness as he increased in wisdom and stature and grew from grace to grace.
Again, that is like saying God changes since He first told the apostles to go the Jews and then to the Gentiles, or that only Levites could have the priesthood at first
We were all intelligences that were formed into spirit beings. Ex nihilo is false.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
I am going to write this in its simplest form so you can understand this, ok. Jesus was God yesterday, today and forever. Period.
There is no room for him to START as a spirit child and exalt to being a god. A spirit child is not a god or else he would be have been born a god to start with. Every being according to mormonism has to start off being a spirit child and exalt from there.
Jesus was God from the beginning to the end.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
The Holy Ghost does not have a physical body, but yet is considered a member of the Godhead.
Your point is moot, since the same could be argued against the Bible and your conception of God since you believe that He was once an omnipresent spirit and then came down and received a body, which would be a definite change. The constancy is not one of physical change but spiritual intention, mission etc.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
Again you don't get it. The passage is simply saying that Jesus is God from eternity to eternity. He is the same nature which is God. To say that Jesus was or will be anything less than God is blasphemy. That is one of the reasons why mormonism is not I repeat not Christian.
The same goes with God being an exalted man. This is blasphemy. Psa. 90:2 "from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God." There is no room for exaltation. Joseph is a false prophet and mormonism is a false religion.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
Again, what was Jesus before he was a spirit child?
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
@jesussavesbygrace
D&C 39:1
"Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ"
omiolo 1 year ago
Even your own scripture states that Jesus is the Great I AM (God) from etenity to eternity. Jesus was never a spirit child. He has always been God. This just goes to show the contradictions in Mormon doctrine. Thanks for bringing this up.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
You didn't answer my question about what Jesus was before He was a spirit child.
Besides, all this talk about there being a pre-existance is utter non-sense and untrue. It can't be proven in the Bible, and in fact I challenge you to show me in the Bible where we existed before we were on this earth.
Don't bother quoting from the Book of Mormon because that is not God inspired scripture. I want to see it from the Bible.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
We (including Christ) were intelligences that were formed into spirit beings by our Heavenly Father. I don't claim to know all the particulars of how He does that, but we know from Acts 17:38 and Hebrews 12:9 that we are his spiritual offspring.
As for pre-existence:
Job 38:7,Ecclesiastes 12:7, Jeremiah 1:5, John 9:2, Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:4
Jude 1:6, Proverbs:22-31, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
Acts 17:28 (not 38) the term offspring is simply a symbolic way of saying that we originated from God. Its figurative language. Since God is not a man by nature (Hosea 11:9 Num. 23:19) and we are, we are not literal begotten children of God.
As far as Heb. 12:9 goes, yes God is the Father of our spirits but in no way does this mean He is our literal Father. As Father of our spirits, God is our creator and originator. Zech 12:1 teaches that he created our spirits within us, not through birth.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
If He was not our literal Father than there would be no point in assigning such a title to Him, especially when talking about our spiritual nature.
Our spirit body is made up of intelligences, which are eternal. God organized those intelligences into spirits pre-mortally. To say they had a beginning would be to teach the false doctrine of annihilation, which would negate the Atonement. He put the spirit of man into the body, not created it within him. Therefore, it would have already existed.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
It was clearly not figurative in Acts, since Paul clearly is distinguishing that since we are the offspring of God, he does not resemble any heathen or unkown god since we are literally in His image.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
Also, the greek word "genos" rendered offspring in Acts refers to actual lineal descent.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
But there is one major flaw through this whole spiritual offspring "theory". Where is Mother God? You can't have spirit children without a mother.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
Job 38:7 the sons of God to which Job refers are in the angelic realm, Gods ministering spirits. In other words the angels not spirit children.
Ecc.12:7 our spirits originated (created) from God at birth, we live a short while on earth, and then return to him for eternity.There is no teaching of the pre-existence of man.
Jer. 1:5The passage doesnt say Jeremiah knew the Lord in the preexistence. God consecrated and appointed Jeremiah before mortal birth. Easy task for an all-knowing God.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
And please, your evidence that they are angels? I believe the Hebrew is bene-Elohim, which clearly denotes actual sons of God.
For Ecclesiastes, it says that we will RETURN to the God who made us. Obviously, in order to return, we would have had to once been there and left. We are strangers and foreigners on this earth, remember?
You can't consecrate or appoint something that isn't in existence.
Also, you completely ignored the proverb verses that quite clearly make premortality evident.
StorminMormin91 1 year ago
In the Old Testament, the "sons of God" (bene Elohim) is never used of humans, but always of supernatural beings that are higher than man but lower than God. It's obvious that angels are the only beings that fit in this category. It applies to both good and evil angels.
In Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 the "sons of God" came to present themselves before the Lord in Heaven. Among the sons of God is Satan a further proof that the "sons of God" must have been angels.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
What was Jesus before he was a spirit child?
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
Jesus Christ has ALWAYS been the Son of God, he has NEVER been a substance or essence or a schizophrenic!
omiolo 1 year ago
D&C 39:1 agrees with the Bible that Jesus has always been God. But yet the mormons don't believe their own scripture. They believe Jesus was a created being (spirit child) and then exalted to godhood. Mormonism falls short of being christian because it denies the deity of Jesus and in fact God.
When I refer to Jesus as a "substance" its just a way of trying to explain Him as being one part of the Godhead. I am in no way downgrading His existance as God.
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
The most important thing in all this is who is Jesus Christ? He is God in human flesh John 1. He is the Great God and our Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13. Before Abraham was I AM John 8:58. All things were created by Him Col. 1:16. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, forever Heb. 13:8... Jesus is God from eternity to eternity.
Mormonism doesn't teach this. You can't be saved without the true Jesus. The Biblical Jesus is the only one that can save. That is the end of the argument!!!
jesussavesbygrace 1 year ago
Actually the ONLY thing Mormons do NOT teach is that God does NOT talk to himself and that God is NOT a pagan trinitarian!
The rest of that you are as wrong as sin about what Mormons teach!
omiolo 1 year ago
You say the trinitarian view is pagan? Have you not read the BofM lately? 2 Nephi 31:21 "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end." 3 Nephi 11:27 "And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one."