This bishop is contemptible! John Kennedy had it exactly right---and yet he twists and distorts Kennedy's words. If it were up to this bishop, the U.S. would be a theocracy. This bishop's arrogance is part of the reason for the clericalism that led to the pedophilia scandal. Terrible!
the moral obligation to protect the life of the innocent. It is up to societies and governments to pass laws that protect their future citizens, this is no a theocracy. Chris Mathews new this and I think he took adventage of it. This was not very honorable on his part.
The Kennedy case is a good example a "catholic " politician says something like yea I think that if women want to have abortions they are in their right. Well this politician is condoning murder. This politician already incurred into the realm of god, therefore it is the duty of a bishop to tell the member of his flock that he is incurring in grave sin and that as catholic he has to change his view on abortion. The politician second duty as a christian is to love his neighbor, therefore he has
Chris Mathews is wrong, it is not the job of the clergy to resolve this matter. the bishops are simply making a teaching statement. "it is a moral evil to have an abortion because the life of an innocent is being taken" People of the United States what are you going to do about it. bum that is it. As pastors of the flock if a bishop sees or hears somone in his flock saying or doing something that goes against the law of god it is their duty to bring that person into reason, the Kennedy case.
And this is bullshit, why can't you be religious and political at the same time? They're both so similar in bullshit like denominations...
I don't see the big difference between being political for religious or secular reasons. I'm against abortion, not for religious reasons. Religiously it doesn't matter either fucking way based off my beliefs, but there are moral and practical reasons to oppose it, at least as it stands today. So what? We can only have secular motivations?
Does Chris Mathews want that bishop to write an anti-abortion bill on live television? If not, then what the fuck is he getting at?
Sure... I could make some sort of arbitrary law off the top of my head. Any woman that has an abortion be fined 5000 dollars, any person caught giving an abortion fined 10,000.
Now fucking move on Chris Mathews, and get off Kennedy's dead dick.
I realize I'm a few years late on this comment, but it's worth posting anyway. It was quite clear during the interview that Chris Matthews wasn't interested in the truth. He had a point to make and he wanted to make it regardless of whether or not Bishop Tobin's responses fit his thesis. That's not reporting or even good interviewing. That's called entertainment and bad entertainment at that.
Bishop Tobin was trying not to get into speculation about criminal penalties, and Matthews didn't let him speak much. I think the obvious answer is to penalize the person who does the abortion, not the woman who has the abortion done, even though she is complicit in the act. Women in that state are often not thinking clearly or under great pressure. It's the "doctors" or whomever else who kill the unborn children who should be held legally liable.
@ben6killer That's what I was thinking exactly. What was also interesting was that Chris Matthews seemed unusually heated towards Bishop Tobin. It seemed like he didn't understand that, while the Church doesn't dictate laws, she does communicate morality and does have an authority to admonish the sinner, particularly public ones, which does have a natural cause and effect nature on how laws are passed or voted on. Matthews was stuck on the particulars of laws out of context.
@garciadelacadena keep fighting the good fight brother. we must always preach TRUTH with love. even if the liberals keep trying to make it seem as if Jesus loved everyone and let them keep living in sin. they decieve themselves and reject the true Christ. Ad Majoriem Dei Gloriam!!
Well...the Bishop should have ask Chris what he should do. Here you have a congressman who writes an editorial that he supports abortion, states that he is catholic, and that he is going to take communium whether the Bishop likes it or not. Sounds like fighting words.
The Bishop writes a letter back stating that he wants to talk about it privately and then the congressman writes back in another editorial the same thing. Kennedy was using the issue to get votes.
@garciadelacadena Do I believe it is possible for someone who has an affiliation with a religion to have left-wing political views, or that someone with no religious connections can have right-wing political views? Yes, I do believe that. Assuming you don't, maybe you can explain exactly why politics and religion should be regarded as the same entity, and/or why it is impossible for there to be a religious left or secular right?
@TheKNexWeasel You meant to say "CLAIM", because a religious person supporting leftist ideas is either too ignorant about his religion or about the left. Leftists ideas have their core in an atheistic position, check the writings of Engels and Marx if you don't believe me.
@garciadelacadena Hold on a second. "Too ignorant?" So Jesus DIDN'T state over 2,000 times that He wants Christians to help the poor, and not to hoard everything for themselves (Matthew 19:24 seems to address Jesus's position on the latter)? He DIDN'T oppose public prayer? (Hint: Check Matthew 6:5-6)
But since you're obviously so much holier than me, maybe you can also explain how being right-wing doesn't conflict with Jesus's teachings (and actually answer my question this time)?
@TheKNexWeasel Our Lord Jesus Christ never said that it was the Government role to provide welfare (corrupted politicians is the result of the collection of so much tax-payer money), charity is at a personal level.
"Conservatism" has its foundation in our Lord Jesus Christ, and it's precisely him who is so much insulted by the left up to the point of not accepting his divinity and doing everything they can to destroy his Church, and Matthews is a prime example.
@garciadelacadena He also never said that politicians should be preventing LGBT's from marrying or that they should be infringing on reproductive rights.
Remember your argument about how religious lefts are making "claims?" That's just what you've been doing this whole time - CLAIMING that God is only on your side, CLAIMING that Jesus will condemn any liberal idea. Again, WHERE does Jesus draw that kind of line? What data do you have to prove it? How do you know He isn't offended by you?
@TheKNexWeasel It's clear you don't have any idea what the principles of the left are, so to make it simple for you I will give you an assignment.... research who are the founders of the left, most precisely who are the founders of Socialism / Communism (both of them share the same roots).
And then research what was their concept of God and Religion, hopefully it will make it clear for you and for anyone else reading this.
@TheKNexWeasel A false interpretation of the Bible is the root of many errors, and for you to try to use any Religious argument to justify a Leftists position is an insult to honesty.
@garciadelacadena False interpretation? Those quotes are in every bible ever written. And by your logic in the latter part of your comment, it's also impossible to use a religious argument to justify a conservative position.
So name one quote where a Pharisee took a position that isn't similar to the religious right of today (e.g. money-loving, vengeful, eager to pass judgment, attempting to vaunt themselves to downplay someone else, etc.).
@TheKNexWeasel you want to talk about being like a pharisee, all chris matthews wants to talk about is the law and how it has nothing to do with morals whereas the bishop responded to what kennedy said about the catholic church and didn't ask him to change the law but just asked him to be catholic as he says he is catholic. where is the hypocrisy here?
@TheKNexWeasel Precisely by trying to use those verses (not quotes) to accuse conservatives you have arrived at a false interpretation. It's the Left the one that has its roots in the Pharisee views, all to the point of accusing and plotting Jesus Christ crucifixion.
Thousands of years later, the Left does the same every day, specially in every Country where it has reached power by either force (Cuba, China, North Korea) or by brainwashing the electorate (Venezuela) just like you.
@garciadelacadena "And Jesus said to His disciples, 'truly I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'" (Matthew 19:23) Does that REALLY sound like modern right-wing sentiment?
I'll be blunt here: things are not so black and white that anyone who isn't a conservative is fascist or anti-Christ. Politics and religion are two different things. Fascism is not communism or democracy. You can claim all you want that they are, but that's nothing but talk. Nice try.
@TheKNexWeasel The verse is in regards the way you live your live, obviously for someone who lives a materialistic way of live would be very hard to go to heaven, but I also have the following verse, which applies to Atheism, one of the tenants of the left.
Lk, 11: 23 "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
Bishops aren't accustomed to being challenged as was evident in this interview. I don't often agree with Mr. Matthews, but he had the right questions this time. The Bishop came across as the buffoon he is.
A jewish rabbi and a catholic priest are walking down the road, when they see a young boy approaching them. The priest says, "Hey, what do you say we take that boy behind the bushes and screw him?" The rabbi asks "Screw him outta what?"
How can people who claim that abortion is MURDER and don't insist that women who have abortions we TREATED LIKE MURDERS are showing that in their heart or hearts they KNOW how wrong they are.
I often dislike Matthews, but he is truly BRILLIANT in this program, and "his excellency" shows how arrogantly ignorant most of the R.C. hierarchy are.
THESE BULLY pundits are the reason I quit watching TV. what a waste of money paying cable to watch fools run their mouth with no ears to listen to wisdom...
If a politician panders to a demographic group to be elected. The Catholic church are within their right to take those votes away after informing the group.
Chris Matthews is a fool. The effect of outlawing abortions is that there would be fewer abortions. Chris,this isn't rocket science. Murder is against the law ,but people still commit murder. The law should be to outlaw abortion.There should be a penalty. How dare such an idiot split hairs!! I wouldn't laugh at criminalizing abortion. we criminalize things alot less severe- you can get thrown in jail for tax evasion,speeding, drunk driving,etc etc.Give me a break!
rogerspring: the reasons why he should or should not recuse himself from receiving the Eucharist have nothing to do with his alcoholism. Even addicts go to heaven.
rogerspring is correct. You are not supposed to take communion unless you are properly prepared. That means you should not be on illegal drugs and or drunk. After checking out his history, he is lucky he isn't in prison. I had no idea of his history of drunk driving, but he is out of control. Supporting Abortion is reason enough to deny his Communion.
Dalis - I no nothing of the Catholic Workers movement.
19lfm12 - You know little of Constantine and I am curious as to where you get your ideological view of the Gospels. Once again, I'll remind you that those who followed Christos the first 20-30 years after his death never heard of Gospels, for nothing had yet been written. The Bible was first put together well after 300 A.D.
In fact, Constantine the Great began accepting Christian teachings after that battle. Although still very ruthless, he began religious conversion of his people. He built a church on the outskirts of Rome, which he then placed on a coin to spread "the word". To say he only accepted Christ on his deathbed is ludicrous.
No - Constantine did not 'accept Xtian teaching'; rather he dictated what it should be, in collaboration with corrupt bishops. He used Xtianity as a tool for political persecution - which is NOT of Christ, nor is it how He taught to spread the Gospel message!
Assuming that Constantine converted to Xtianity at all......which is remotely possible, but a stretch, it is ONLY on deathbed. As his life is NOT of Christ; hence no evidence of conversion.
The legend, as you call it, happened prior to a battle (don't remember where) where he faced certain death. He was outnumbered 5 to 1. He saw the vision and was struck by it because, as you say, he was pagan. It made quite an impression, as he had the Cross painted on all the soldiers shields. He destroyed his enemy. After the battle, he declared that the Christians could practice their religion freely without prosecution, quite a change after all those years.
The Battle was Milvian Bridge, October 28, 312. Constantine defeated the other Roman emperor, Maxentius, who drowned in the Tiber River. After this battle, Constantine was the sole Roman emperor. He built the Arch of Constantine in Rome to commemorate the victory.
That he 'saw" it, is mere legend. One could consider this to be a legitimate vision from God IF...and only IF....he was truly converted & this was made manifest in his deeds.
But he was not converted, nor were his deeds in any way coherent with Christ. Constantine remained pagan in word & deed for the rest of his public life.
He did not 'convert'; he merely used Xtianity for political ends. In collaboration with corrupt bishops.
My heart does go out to those who abort a child. Many will have a pat of their heart that will be missing for the rest of their lives. Many women are under a great stress that can be hard to overcome. However, adoption is a great thing.
hopeurfree: as I understand it, the Orthodox teach that the saved person has attained theosis. This is a god-like state?
The original question was not whether you adhere to ritual, although that is important. But, you know as well as I that someone can go through the motions and still go to hell. A Christian life is full of prayer, charity, and forgiveness. The idea is, these things are more important than how many candles one lights and when and what color.
hopeurfree: ok, that's fine. You obviously know more about your own religion than I would ever presume to. The question is, do you lead a Christian life. This is obviously tied to your Orthodox teaching as mine is tied to Catholicism.
Ok, how about a concrete example: What is a Christian supposed to do when encountered by a woman who is considering an abortion? What is a Christian supposed to do with a woman who's already had one?
since you asked. I'd tell her a life is inside her, a complete life. I'd tell her that she was given life, now let another have a life. I would ask her if she would consider adopting the children to a family who wanted to raise the child.
If she has had an abortion (depends on her religious take), I would tell her that she is loved and not to do it again. If she has already had an abortion, what good is it to make the guilt worse than it already is?
Dalis, to tell you the truth, I really don't know what i would say to a woman who went through an abortion. I think Jesus would say not to do it again, but you are forgiven. I, personally would give her a big hug and let her know that she is loved and that it will be alright. It is foreign to me, as I have adopted two children and my wife was adopted. Even my DOG was ADOPTED!!! LOL. I am surrounded by adoptees!!!!!
Man has consistently tried to 'become God', since the time of Nimrod. And since then we have had rulers...and popes....who would be 'other Christs'.
There is no guarantee of salvation, except in internalizing & following the Gospel. What is the Gospel? Its core is found in the Beatitudes & the Sermon on the Mount. The Parables all point to & are coherent with these teachings.
Dalis - I t was really nice conversing with you. One of the few who doesn't blow a gasket and you ask intelligent questions about Orthodoxy. I hope to converse with u in the future. Sorry about he crude shag comment, but I could not resist the temptation. I have many failings and crude comedy at someone else's expense is one of them. Good Night!!!!!!!
hopeurfree: We all know what the Orthodox Church is, its origins, and that you're one. You've mentioned this several times and seem very concerned with not being mistaken for one of those Roman Catholics (gee, thanks) or Protestants. What I think 19lfm12 was questioning is whether or not you're a Christian (live a Christ-like life).
Dalis - You might not be aware that many confuse the Orthodox with the roman Catholics, since Peter started the roman catholic church and Paul started the Greek Orthodox Church. However, the roman Catholics split from the other Orthodox Church's. Orthodox tend to be very conservative (no abortion ect.).
Ah, you read my profile, I see. Alas, I'm not as perfect at leading a Christian life as you (I'm sure), but I'm quite sure "shag gagging" isn't a term your mother or your priest would like you to be uttering. I use the term "lesbian" to refer to the fact that I have homosexual attractions. Unfortunately, there really isn't a go-to term for that that doesn't presume that I'm sexually active. Oh wait, I remembered a good one: hopeurfree: I'm a virgin and a practicing Catholic. You can calm down.
Priest probably would not mind. He knows me. You can't be a Lesbian and a Catholic. Sorry, you are not Catholic. You may call yourself one, but you are not a follower of Jesus Christ.
hopeurfree: yes, I know. The formal schism was in 1054 when the pope and the patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
I neither question nor am I concerned with how someone lives their life. However when someone claims to be "Christian' and yet does not comprehend very basic things about Christianity, I will speak up.
I can have much more patience for Agnostics or Atheists. As they are not claiming 'piety'.
And I do not care what denomination one is' that is unimportant.
Legend? To you maybe, but then again, you don't believe, I do.
So it is you who decides who is Christian? You make the decision? Where have I claimed piety?
It is evident you know little about Orthodoxy and it is evident you have scorn for Christians for some reason. That is your problem. I believe. You can support your abortions, you can support confiscation of others property and others work, but when you confiscate property from one person to give to another, that is robbery.
It is Christ himself who condemns displays of external 'piety', as they are of themselves meaningless - & merely for show. True internal piety does not parade itself before men; it is humble, quiet & known but to God.
It makes itself manifest in prayer (in secret, as Christ taught), & in acts of genuine personal charity. Done quietly, in secret - so nobody knows of it, except God.
Nowhere have I indicated support for abortion or forced property confiscation.
hopeurfree: no, I wasn't previously talking about Constantine. I was mainly being cheeky about the pope's Prada shoes.
But, speaking of Constantine, I saw his basilica in Rome. It was not a Christian basilica but a temple to his own deified self as emperor . The fragments of his Colossus are still in the Capitoline Museums. He executed his own wife and son. Yes, he was tolerant of Christianity (Edict of Milan). I leave it to God that he became a Christian himself - on his deathbed.
hopeurfree: yes, about the deathbed. I think I know where the confusion is. Ok, so Constantine won the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312. He still dedicated that basilica in Rome to himself afterward. His self-deification didn't end, only that the emperor/deity was Christian. Then came the Edict of Milan in 313, which legalized Christianity and ended the Diocletian persecutions. I suppose the more accurate thing to say is that he was baptized on his deathbed, which he was.
The 'vision of a cross' legend is....mere legend. There is no proof of this & its primary source is his bishop-friend/biographer, who paints Constantine as if with a halo.
In fact he was a lifelong pagan who used the Church, co-opting willing Bishops, into a state relgion. A very useful political machine.....
He was not Xtian; his deeds belie that. If he converted on his deathbed, so be it.
You are lost. The New Testament was written at various times, most 20-60 or so years after his death. The Apostle Paul wrote numerous letters, not all in the New Testament. The Catholic Bible certainly has more books than the Protestant Bible. Do you know what the early church was called, prior to being called Christian, since you seem to know all?
Do you not know the Bible is a collection of books written at different times. The bible you read today had its founding in about 350 A.D. (don't know exact date, but that is close) There are quite a few books that were not included in the bible you probably use.
The Gospel is the teachings of Christ.....prior to 33AD. The message was transmitted orally AND in writing in the 1st century....regardless of the date ascribed to the scribal version of this or that text. Please get a grip on history!
The Dead Sea scrolls are SCRIBAL texts; that is to say they are copies of then extant texts.
I think you have your own way of understanding Christ, which is fine. However, there is much more to learn about the Apostles from the Orthodox Church. There is more to learn than just from the Bible.
If the core of the Orthodox, or any church, is not founded in the Gospel - having the Beatitudes & Sermon on the Mount at its core - then it is not founded on Christ.
"But Lord, we Liturgized correctly, changing nothing; we kept strict church rules, customs - anathematizing all who did not".
Christ's response: "I know you not - for you showed not the mercy I taught".
Religions are Evil! I'm so glad that more people are seeing through all this bullshit. When you sit back, and think what the Christian faith believes. It really is a following of Loonies. I've helped many people realize what bullshit this is. Star Wars is more believeable. Once you've liberated yourself from all this nonsense. It's such a beautiful feeling. To the people that get it. Help out kids, and young adults. Because that's where the brainwashing takes place. Stop the religious insanity!
Atheism is Evil! I'm so glad that more people are seeing through all this bullshit. When you sit back, and think what Atheism believes. It really is a following of Loonies. I've helped many people realize what bullshit this is. Star Wars is more believeable [sic]. Once you've liberated yourself from all this nonsense. It's such a beautiful feeling. To the people that get it. Help out kids, and young adults. Because that's where the brainwashing takes place. Stop the atheist insanity!
Ok... So I see you have a problem with my Star Wars being more believeable comment? Jesus was supposed to be from a virgin birth. Well so was Vader. There was a parting of the red sea. Yoda didn't do that, but he did get Luke's plane out of the swamp with the force. When Jesus died he came back from tthe dead. Well at the end of Return of the Jedi, all the dead characters were there on top of the Ewoks house. Jesus walked on water. I don't remember Yoda doing that. See... more believeable.
See how arrogant and bigoted your words sound when the intolerance is aimed at you? Look, you don't have the secret knowledge. You're just going to have to resign yourself to the fact that many people think and believe differently than you do, and we all have to live together.
The reason most ppl are Atheists is because they are disgusted by the overt lies & hypocrisy of those who 'claim to represent God".
They believe that what Jesus taught - the Sermon on the Mount, Beatitudes, which are the core of the Gospel - to be wonderful teaching. They also see the great incoherence between what Jesus did & taught - and the deeds of those who 'speak in His Name".
Most Atheists simply see through the BS of organized religion.
Obviously you have never had a civil conversation with an Atheist, nor tried to comprehend why they think as they do.
The Vatican has done the work of the Devil - in that they have done a wonderful job of turning ppl away from God. Instead of gently leading men to Him....and only those who are voluntarily interested!
The same can be said of all organized Xtianity - it serves itself, nor God.
Tainted? By what? Pretty much, nothing has changed. The wedding ceremony is 1700 years old, one of the last things changed. I don't think you know much about Orthodox Christians.
The Gospel is not liturgical correctness....'high church'...or orthodox Orthodoxy. Or this or that 'custom'. That is not the Gospel; that is not Faith.
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice"....is not exactly coherent with the construct of Liturgical/Doctrinal/Dogmatic 'orthodoxy' as the foundation of faith.
It is not. And such is not Faith. It is mere externals.
Men shall be judged only by the Gospel; by internals.
@DalisYT I read your homepage and I want to point out your inherent hypocrisy in saying you look at crude language as a sign of being 'maleducated' (A word I have never encountered but can guess what you mean). You say atheism is bullshit and then you provide no evidence to support anything relating to a point. Your "intellegent, well-intentioned debate" adherences went out the window big time here. In conclusion, you appear to be doing the textbook definition of projecting.
@trocknickel If you search the comments, you'll see that the post 10 months ago(!) where I wrote "Atheism is bullshit!" is a word-for-word quote of another post by SniPer9588 that says "Religions are bullshit!". I simply switched one word for the other in order to demonstrate the ridiculousnous of such a remark when. And I said as much at the time ("I was trying to make a point about dogmatism").
I do not think atheism is bullshit nor am I a hypocrite nor am I projecting. Context is everything.
The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians don't allow for Abortion. You can either follow Jesus Christ and be a member or you can leave the church to lead whatever life you choose. If you choose to follow Jesus Christ, then you will follow the Church teachings and abortion is against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Can anyone imagine Jesus saying that killing a child is ok? Would never happen. So, Kennedy either needs to follow Jesus Christ or follow his ideology.
If the Catholic Church were at all consistent, they would ban everyone who has ever divorced, cheated or supported war. I would still not agree with them, but at least they would be intellectually honest.
Tobin shows himself to be a cipher with no independent thought. He could have answered Matthew's intelligent queries & still maintained the integrity of his POV.
But he just droned the buzzwords of the carefully scripted company song he is conditioned to sing.
Tobin is an uneducated drone of Opus Dei, who seems not to have a thought of his own - as all he is trained in is..
The bad bishop kept his cool as that is how he was conditioned at the North American College (the bishop factory). They are trained to implement policy, how to indoctrinate, & how to instill & demand obedience. In plain English:
Facilitators. Corporate Managers.
...not spiritual directors, much less believers in God.
As I said before. The Christian movement against abortion is new. The politics of abortion have only been steaming up church windows for about thirty years. My guess is that the issue is burning out. Christian people have had enough of it and would like to get back to Christian service. My engagement on this board is part of a research project for a book.
It's been fun. Thanks. And less hostile than I thought it would be.
If you are writing a book, don't be so careless with facts and figures. If you say that abortion has only been an issue for 30 years or so, it is because it was illegal before then, so no issue in the church. You somehow think abortion was common among followers of Christ, it wasn't, therefor not mentioned in the New Testament. You better hope your editor wants a slanted leftist view, because you would have a hard time getting your book past me, given the ideology you presented on this board.
Since you & your brethren are so obsessed with Abortion, here is the solution to is:
Divest the assets of each Diocese, all the various (ha ha!) 'charities', those of all the cultic groups (Opus Dei, LC, etc.), & the Vatican itself - and give the proceeds to the poor.
Then the poor will be fed & cared for; pregnant women not consider Abortion as they would have material sufficiency - the lack of which is the main reason they seek abortion.
19lfm12: poverty is only one factor which influences a woman's (or her boyfriend's, husband's, or parent's) decision to abort her child, so while it is admirable to want to appropriate money for them (hey, I'm with ya, man), how is that going to lower the numbers of women seeking abortions because they're birth control (inevitably) failed and they had exercised the mantra of unwanting their children with each daily pill? How will we get women to want children with Down Syndrome? etc. etc. etc.
Economics is the MAIN factor a woman contemplates Abortion. This has nothing to do with 'seflishness' & everything to do with practicality. Without material help during pregnancy AND for the first 3 years of the child's life, the mom simply cannot bear & properly care for the child.
Phariseeical moralizing is cruel & pointless, unless the Churcn is willing to OBEY Christ & give its wealth to the poor - thus solving the 'problem'.
An irrelevant argument - as most affluent women have been educated about contraception & use it when desired. Thus the instances of 'unwanted pregnancy' among them are far fewer.
...but seriously, I agree with your statement that economics is a major factor that influences women to choose an abortion. That's cruel. Many of the pressures the woman didn't choose, but the onus is always on her. That's cruel too. The simple fact is, women choose abortion for lots of reasons, some of which we are right to question. It's the hard cases that are carted out to justify the industry, but the truth is, abortion profits from a lot of needless death.
This has zilch to do with whether the child was conceived in/out of wedlock, the result of rape or incest, or hedonism.
The point is that most women in crisis pregnancy cannot afford to bear & raise the child. Yelling about 'morality' does not solve the problem; money does.
I am opposed to abortion; but I am not going to point the 'shaking, accusing finger' at the woman in crisis pregnancy. It is HER business; & unless I can materi8ally help her I should STFU!
19lfm12: precisely the thing we're called to do is to materially help people, isn't it? I think, on one level, human suffering is everyone's business. The woman has the ultimate power of life or death unless she's forced, but she's not alone in this. I feel like, the reason we are being told to look the other way is so that this can continue, so she'll be alone, so there will be more abortion, not less. I mean, the groups that profit are hardly impartial when it comes to reproductive choice.
Most women in crisis pregnancy ARE alone; which is part of the problem. And what few church related initiatives there are have no clue how to reach out to them.....without shaming them. Hence why most women would not even THINK of calling a church for help - as they will either get moralizing - or nice platitudes w/no practical, material help.
Rather like giving a homeless man a lecture on personal responsibility...but not a speck of food.
Very well. But first you must reach out in kindness & the utmost sensitivity to women in crisis pregnancy. No shaming; no sermonizing.
You want them to carry the child to term? Fine. Now house, clothe, feed her & give her medical care....all free. In this way you make it POSSIBLE for her to keep the child.
But without the material charity, any attempts to 'call her to conversion' are somewhere between cruel & stupid.
Sounds like you want women to have abortions unless they are given a free living. Not gonna' happen. Most women I know work until several weeks before birth, why the free ride? IF they do give the child up for adoption, their expenses can be paid by the adopting parents.
"Whatsoever you do to the least of your brothers, that you do unto Me. .....that which you do not do for the least of your brothers, that you do not do unto Me"
Organized Christianity - the Vatican in particular - present a religion ABOUT God....nor OF much less IN Him. God is merely an abstract concept, useful to the Administrators as a medium of control.
Not as the object of loyalty & faith.
The clergy, hierarchy & the Church organization itself are presented (and enforced....) as the object of virtual worship & adoration.
Any objective observer would readily see this clearly.
The Church skewed off on a horrid trajectory in the 4th century at Nicea, when it married & sold out to Mammon, becoming a state religion. That is NOT what Christ intended.
Nor are the horrid deeds of its Administration over subsequent centuries.
The 'church' was to spread Christ's teaching (Sermon on the Mount & Beatitudes as its core) to those who would willingly hear - and to teach it by their personal example.
All money/goods received were to be given to the poor. They were not to have/hold ANY material goods; they were to rely ONLY on Providence for sustenance. They were not to seek office, honors, titles or earthly reward. Rule was to be by consensus, not monarchial fiat.
What is the Gospel? It is the teaching of Jesus Christ. The core is the Beatitudes & the Sermon on the Mount. All else He taught is coherent with this, and is the fulfillment of the Law & the Prophets.
He taught mostly via parables that only those who have ears to hear & eyes to see...would hear & see. Those blind to the Holy Spirit will not hear or see - even were the Gospel before them daily.
I really think you do not know how the Orthodox Church works. The core is not Beatitudes & Sermon on the Mount. Yes, he taught by parables, for they were easy to understand and remember. Those blind to the Holy Spirit were disbelievers.
Maybe you got that from the Roman Catholic Church or some Protestant Church, I don't know. However, you need to read more of St. Paul, who wrote over 1/2 of the New Testament.
As all Jesus taught is summed up in the Beatitudes & Sermon on the Mount, these ARE the core of the Gospel. The Parables are inexorably linked to this & coherent. Thus, this IS the Gospel.
No, the Parables are not easy to understand - except in superficial sense. Most do not internalize them, thus they do not believe. Thus they see - yet see not.
This bishop is contemptible! John Kennedy had it exactly right---and yet he twists and distorts Kennedy's words. If it were up to this bishop, the U.S. would be a theocracy. This bishop's arrogance is part of the reason for the clericalism that led to the pedophilia scandal. Terrible!
BrentGrainger2000 2 months ago
the moral obligation to protect the life of the innocent. It is up to societies and governments to pass laws that protect their future citizens, this is no a theocracy. Chris Mathews new this and I think he took adventage of it. This was not very honorable on his part.
gabrielux100 3 months ago 2
The Kennedy case is a good example a "catholic " politician says something like yea I think that if women want to have abortions they are in their right. Well this politician is condoning murder. This politician already incurred into the realm of god, therefore it is the duty of a bishop to tell the member of his flock that he is incurring in grave sin and that as catholic he has to change his view on abortion. The politician second duty as a christian is to love his neighbor, therefore he has
gabrielux100 3 months ago
Chris Mathews is wrong, it is not the job of the clergy to resolve this matter. the bishops are simply making a teaching statement. "it is a moral evil to have an abortion because the life of an innocent is being taken" People of the United States what are you going to do about it. bum that is it. As pastors of the flock if a bishop sees or hears somone in his flock saying or doing something that goes against the law of god it is their duty to bring that person into reason, the Kennedy case.
gabrielux100 3 months ago 3
Patrick kennedy & his cousin are rapist. chris mathews is defending a rapist.
lareneg72 3 months ago
chris matthews is an idiot.
lareneg72 3 months ago 2
And this is bullshit, why can't you be religious and political at the same time? They're both so similar in bullshit like denominations...
I don't see the big difference between being political for religious or secular reasons. I'm against abortion, not for religious reasons. Religiously it doesn't matter either fucking way based off my beliefs, but there are moral and practical reasons to oppose it, at least as it stands today. So what? We can only have secular motivations?
JimProfitCommunist 3 months ago
Does Chris Mathews want that bishop to write an anti-abortion bill on live television? If not, then what the fuck is he getting at?
Sure... I could make some sort of arbitrary law off the top of my head. Any woman that has an abortion be fined 5000 dollars, any person caught giving an abortion fined 10,000.
Now fucking move on Chris Mathews, and get off Kennedy's dead dick.
JimProfitCommunist 3 months ago
GOOD JoB Chris!
ivanjay 3 months ago
way to look like a jerk Chris Matthews.
Jakelough3443 3 months ago
this catholic bishop is too nice
loveSUFFERlearn 3 months ago
matthews is a disgrace to the human race
MNskins11 3 months ago
what a chatter man thank you bishop.
alechew1 4 months ago
Catholic bishops want to hurt women. It's as simple as that.
tonygem 4 months ago
@tonygem Ha! Really now?? As much as Muslims??
kopec1 3 months ago
I realize I'm a few years late on this comment, but it's worth posting anyway. It was quite clear during the interview that Chris Matthews wasn't interested in the truth. He had a point to make and he wanted to make it regardless of whether or not Bishop Tobin's responses fit his thesis. That's not reporting or even good interviewing. That's called entertainment and bad entertainment at that.
jtuturic 4 months ago
Bishop Tobin was trying not to get into speculation about criminal penalties, and Matthews didn't let him speak much. I think the obvious answer is to penalize the person who does the abortion, not the woman who has the abortion done, even though she is complicit in the act. Women in that state are often not thinking clearly or under great pressure. It's the "doctors" or whomever else who kill the unborn children who should be held legally liable.
kevinwbrowning 5 months ago
Chris did a great interview here.
edgwaterprog 6 months ago
he tells him to go ahead and talk then interrups after the bishop says 2 words
ben6killer 6 months ago
@ben6killer That's what I was thinking exactly. What was also interesting was that Chris Matthews seemed unusually heated towards Bishop Tobin. It seemed like he didn't understand that, while the Church doesn't dictate laws, she does communicate morality and does have an authority to admonish the sinner, particularly public ones, which does have a natural cause and effect nature on how laws are passed or voted on. Matthews was stuck on the particulars of laws out of context.
jtuturic 4 months ago
Idk what he is talking about. I think it's a criminal act and would be in favor of imprisonment
Ilovecoversallday 6 months ago
@garciadelacadena keep fighting the good fight brother. we must always preach TRUTH with love. even if the liberals keep trying to make it seem as if Jesus loved everyone and let them keep living in sin. they decieve themselves and reject the true Christ. Ad Majoriem Dei Gloriam!!
14alonso88 7 months ago
Well...the Bishop should have ask Chris what he should do. Here you have a congressman who writes an editorial that he supports abortion, states that he is catholic, and that he is going to take communium whether the Bishop likes it or not. Sounds like fighting words.
The Bishop writes a letter back stating that he wants to talk about it privately and then the congressman writes back in another editorial the same thing. Kennedy was using the issue to get votes.
rhomas913 7 months ago
Here we go again, Liberals trying to be experts in matter of Religion, specially Catholic Religion.
garciadelacadena 8 months ago
@garciadelacadena And conservatives have any better understanding?
TheKNexWeasel 8 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel FYI. I am Catholic. Liberals don't even believe in the existence of God.
garciadelacadena 7 months ago
@garciadelacadena No, those would be atheists. There's a difference between a liberal and an atheist.
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel Really??? Do you really believe that??? Give me a break!!!
garciadelacadena 7 months ago
@garciadelacadena Do I believe it is possible for someone who has an affiliation with a religion to have left-wing political views, or that someone with no religious connections can have right-wing political views? Yes, I do believe that. Assuming you don't, maybe you can explain exactly why politics and religion should be regarded as the same entity, and/or why it is impossible for there to be a religious left or secular right?
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel You meant to say "CLAIM", because a religious person supporting leftist ideas is either too ignorant about his religion or about the left. Leftists ideas have their core in an atheistic position, check the writings of Engels and Marx if you don't believe me.
garciadelacadena 7 months ago
Comment removed
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@garciadelacadena Hold on a second. "Too ignorant?" So Jesus DIDN'T state over 2,000 times that He wants Christians to help the poor, and not to hoard everything for themselves (Matthew 19:24 seems to address Jesus's position on the latter)? He DIDN'T oppose public prayer? (Hint: Check Matthew 6:5-6)
But since you're obviously so much holier than me, maybe you can also explain how being right-wing doesn't conflict with Jesus's teachings (and actually answer my question this time)?
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel Our Lord Jesus Christ never said that it was the Government role to provide welfare (corrupted politicians is the result of the collection of so much tax-payer money), charity is at a personal level.
"Conservatism" has its foundation in our Lord Jesus Christ, and it's precisely him who is so much insulted by the left up to the point of not accepting his divinity and doing everything they can to destroy his Church, and Matthews is a prime example.
AMDG.
garciadelacadena 7 months ago
@garciadelacadena He also never said that politicians should be preventing LGBT's from marrying or that they should be infringing on reproductive rights.
Remember your argument about how religious lefts are making "claims?" That's just what you've been doing this whole time - CLAIMING that God is only on your side, CLAIMING that Jesus will condemn any liberal idea. Again, WHERE does Jesus draw that kind of line? What data do you have to prove it? How do you know He isn't offended by you?
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel It's clear you don't have any idea what the principles of the left are, so to make it simple for you I will give you an assignment.... research who are the founders of the left, most precisely who are the founders of Socialism / Communism (both of them share the same roots).
And then research what was their concept of God and Religion, hopefully it will make it clear for you and for anyone else reading this.
garciadelacadena 7 months ago
@garciadelacadena It's clear that YOU don't have any idea what Jesus actually taught, so I'll give you some bible quotes to look up:
John 8:2-11
Luke 18:9-14
Matthew 25:31-46
Luke 16:13-15
If you ask me, the Pharisees were the conservatives for their time, and you can see how Jesus took to their behavior.
I also have someone for you to research: her name is Ayn Rand, and most of her views were very akin to modern conservatism.
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel A false interpretation of the Bible is the root of many errors, and for you to try to use any Religious argument to justify a Leftists position is an insult to honesty.
garciadelacadena 7 months ago
@garciadelacadena False interpretation? Those quotes are in every bible ever written. And by your logic in the latter part of your comment, it's also impossible to use a religious argument to justify a conservative position.
So name one quote where a Pharisee took a position that isn't similar to the religious right of today (e.g. money-loving, vengeful, eager to pass judgment, attempting to vaunt themselves to downplay someone else, etc.).
TheKNexWeasel 7 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel you want to talk about being like a pharisee, all chris matthews wants to talk about is the law and how it has nothing to do with morals whereas the bishop responded to what kennedy said about the catholic church and didn't ask him to change the law but just asked him to be catholic as he says he is catholic. where is the hypocrisy here?
MrWillduke 6 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel Precisely by trying to use those verses (not quotes) to accuse conservatives you have arrived at a false interpretation. It's the Left the one that has its roots in the Pharisee views, all to the point of accusing and plotting Jesus Christ crucifixion.
Thousands of years later, the Left does the same every day, specially in every Country where it has reached power by either force (Cuba, China, North Korea) or by brainwashing the electorate (Venezuela) just like you.
garciadelacadena 6 months ago
@garciadelacadena "And Jesus said to His disciples, 'truly I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'" (Matthew 19:23) Does that REALLY sound like modern right-wing sentiment?
I'll be blunt here: things are not so black and white that anyone who isn't a conservative is fascist or anti-Christ. Politics and religion are two different things. Fascism is not communism or democracy. You can claim all you want that they are, but that's nothing but talk. Nice try.
TheKNexWeasel 6 months ago
@TheKNexWeasel The verse is in regards the way you live your live, obviously for someone who lives a materialistic way of live would be very hard to go to heaven, but I also have the following verse, which applies to Atheism, one of the tenants of the left.
Lk, 11: 23 "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
garciadelacadena 6 months ago
Excellent dressing down of a bigot!
kts68 9 months ago
Bishops aren't accustomed to being challenged as was evident in this interview. I don't often agree with Mr. Matthews, but he had the right questions this time. The Bishop came across as the buffoon he is.
dayxmas 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
A jewish rabbi and a catholic priest are walking down the road, when they see a young boy approaching them. The priest says, "Hey, what do you say we take that boy behind the bushes and screw him?" The rabbi asks "Screw him outta what?"
jackstrawfrmwchta 1 year ago
How can people who claim that abortion is MURDER and don't insist that women who have abortions we TREATED LIKE MURDERS are showing that in their heart or hearts they KNOW how wrong they are.
I often dislike Matthews, but he is truly BRILLIANT in this program, and "his excellency" shows how arrogantly ignorant most of the R.C. hierarchy are.
Rayosun 1 year ago
@Rayosun
more than one reason why but this one word is sufficient to explain that: intent.
equitemcroce 1 year ago
I like Christ Matthews.. sometimes. I hate him because he keeps interrupting guests. I really hate that.
livardo 1 year ago
THESE BULLY pundits are the reason I quit watching TV. what a waste of money paying cable to watch fools run their mouth with no ears to listen to wisdom...
liyish 1 year ago
So sorry Cable is not all bad there is One good channel EWTN....
liyish 1 year ago
@liyish ,
When is EWTN going to air anything other than its perpetual public relations?
It's nothing but one un-ending "infomercial".
To see what the R.C. church is really all about, Google "JesusWouldBeFurious", (one word).
Rayosun 1 year ago
If a politician panders to a demographic group to be elected. The Catholic church are within their right to take those votes away after informing the group.
mercuryrazvedka 1 year ago
Religion is stupid dogma for stupid people
breda83 2 years ago
Chris Matthews is a fool. The effect of outlawing abortions is that there would be fewer abortions. Chris,this isn't rocket science. Murder is against the law ,but people still commit murder. The law should be to outlaw abortion.There should be a penalty. How dare such an idiot split hairs!! I wouldn't laugh at criminalizing abortion. we criminalize things alot less severe- you can get thrown in jail for tax evasion,speeding, drunk driving,etc etc.Give me a break!
jbdlawyer 2 years ago
pathetic use of the word "excellency."
jerrydoubleu 2 years ago
Imagine the gall of that Kennedy fella. I agree on denying him Communion, he is nothing more than a drugged up alcoholic.
rogerspring 2 years ago
rogerspring: the reasons why he should or should not recuse himself from receiving the Eucharist have nothing to do with his alcoholism. Even addicts go to heaven.
DalisYT 2 years ago
rogerspring is correct. You are not supposed to take communion unless you are properly prepared. That means you should not be on illegal drugs and or drunk. After checking out his history, he is lucky he isn't in prison. I had no idea of his history of drunk driving, but he is out of control. Supporting Abortion is reason enough to deny his Communion.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis - I checked out your Catholic Workers Movement.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis - I no nothing of the Catholic Workers movement.
19lfm12 - You know little of Constantine and I am curious as to where you get your ideological view of the Gospels. Once again, I'll remind you that those who followed Christos the first 20-30 years after his death never heard of Gospels, for nothing had yet been written. The Bible was first put together well after 300 A.D.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
In fact, Constantine the Great began accepting Christian teachings after that battle. Although still very ruthless, he began religious conversion of his people. He built a church on the outskirts of Rome, which he then placed on a coin to spread "the word". To say he only accepted Christ on his deathbed is ludicrous.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
No - Constantine did not 'accept Xtian teaching'; rather he dictated what it should be, in collaboration with corrupt bishops. He used Xtianity as a tool for political persecution - which is NOT of Christ, nor is it how He taught to spread the Gospel message!
Assuming that Constantine converted to Xtianity at all......which is remotely possible, but a stretch, it is ONLY on deathbed. As his life is NOT of Christ; hence no evidence of conversion.
19lfm12 2 years ago
The legend, as you call it, happened prior to a battle (don't remember where) where he faced certain death. He was outnumbered 5 to 1. He saw the vision and was struck by it because, as you say, he was pagan. It made quite an impression, as he had the Cross painted on all the soldiers shields. He destroyed his enemy. After the battle, he declared that the Christians could practice their religion freely without prosecution, quite a change after all those years.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
The Battle was Milvian Bridge, October 28, 312. Constantine defeated the other Roman emperor, Maxentius, who drowned in the Tiber River. After this battle, Constantine was the sole Roman emperor. He built the Arch of Constantine in Rome to commemorate the victory.
DalisYT 2 years ago
Thanks for the info. I did not remember the name of the Battle, I suppose I should have looked it up, but I can be lazy at times.
Thanks
hopeurfree 2 years ago
That he 'saw" it, is mere legend. One could consider this to be a legitimate vision from God IF...and only IF....he was truly converted & this was made manifest in his deeds.
But he was not converted, nor were his deeds in any way coherent with Christ. Constantine remained pagan in word & deed for the rest of his public life.
He did not 'convert'; he merely used Xtianity for political ends. In collaboration with corrupt bishops.
19lfm12 2 years ago
My heart does go out to those who abort a child. Many will have a pat of their heart that will be missing for the rest of their lives. Many women are under a great stress that can be hard to overcome. However, adoption is a great thing.
Good Night, Gotta' go to bed!!!!!
hopeurfree 2 years ago
In Orthodoxy there is no promise that you are "Saved".
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Explain to me what you think the Orthodox believe is a Christian Life. I'd be interested to hear.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
hopeurfree: as I understand it, the Orthodox teach that the saved person has attained theosis. This is a god-like state?
The original question was not whether you adhere to ritual, although that is important. But, you know as well as I that someone can go through the motions and still go to hell. A Christian life is full of prayer, charity, and forgiveness. The idea is, these things are more important than how many candles one lights and when and what color.
DalisYT 2 years ago
We have but one color, plain white for candles. Yes we have rituals. I have no idea who goes to hell.
Man can never become God, you must be looking on internet for that one. Only Jesus was Man/God.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
hopeurfree: ok, that's fine. You obviously know more about your own religion than I would ever presume to. The question is, do you lead a Christian life. This is obviously tied to your Orthodox teaching as mine is tied to Catholicism.
Ok, how about a concrete example: What is a Christian supposed to do when encountered by a woman who is considering an abortion? What is a Christian supposed to do with a woman who's already had one?
DalisYT 2 years ago
since you asked. I'd tell her a life is inside her, a complete life. I'd tell her that she was given life, now let another have a life. I would ask her if she would consider adopting the children to a family who wanted to raise the child.
If she has had an abortion (depends on her religious take), I would tell her that she is loved and not to do it again. If she has already had an abortion, what good is it to make the guilt worse than it already is?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis, to tell you the truth, I really don't know what i would say to a woman who went through an abortion. I think Jesus would say not to do it again, but you are forgiven. I, personally would give her a big hug and let her know that she is loved and that it will be alright. It is foreign to me, as I have adopted two children and my wife was adopted. Even my DOG was ADOPTED!!! LOL. I am surrounded by adoptees!!!!!
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Man has consistently tried to 'become God', since the time of Nimrod. And since then we have had rulers...and popes....who would be 'other Christs'.
There is no guarantee of salvation, except in internalizing & following the Gospel. What is the Gospel? Its core is found in the Beatitudes & the Sermon on the Mount. The Parables all point to & are coherent with these teachings.
We will be judged solely upon the Gospel.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Out of curiosity, what religion gives you this thinking?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis - I t was really nice conversing with you. One of the few who doesn't blow a gasket and you ask intelligent questions about Orthodoxy. I hope to converse with u in the future. Sorry about he crude shag comment, but I could not resist the temptation. I have many failings and crude comedy at someone else's expense is one of them. Good Night!!!!!!!
hopeurfree 2 years ago
It is sad to see so many that have no idea what the Orthodox Church is. Oh well, you can lead a horse to water..............
hopeurfree 2 years ago
hopeurfree: We all know what the Orthodox Church is, its origins, and that you're one. You've mentioned this several times and seem very concerned with not being mistaken for one of those Roman Catholics (gee, thanks) or Protestants. What I think 19lfm12 was questioning is whether or not you're a Christian (live a Christ-like life).
DalisYT 2 years ago
Doesn't even know me, neither do you. Having a leftist question my faith is silly. You do not know the Orthodox Church and don't pretend to.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis - You might not be aware that many confuse the Orthodox with the roman Catholics, since Peter started the roman catholic church and Paul started the Greek Orthodox Church. However, the roman Catholics split from the other Orthodox Church's. Orthodox tend to be very conservative (no abortion ect.).
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis - No lesbian shag gagging either. LOL.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Ah, you read my profile, I see. Alas, I'm not as perfect at leading a Christian life as you (I'm sure), but I'm quite sure "shag gagging" isn't a term your mother or your priest would like you to be uttering. I use the term "lesbian" to refer to the fact that I have homosexual attractions. Unfortunately, there really isn't a go-to term for that that doesn't presume that I'm sexually active. Oh wait, I remembered a good one: hopeurfree: I'm a virgin and a practicing Catholic. You can calm down.
DalisYT 2 years ago
Priest probably would not mind. He knows me. You can't be a Lesbian and a Catholic. Sorry, you are not Catholic. You may call yourself one, but you are not a follower of Jesus Christ.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
hopeurfree: I shall quote you what you wrote yourself 36 minutes ago: "Doesn't even know me, neither do you."
DalisYT 2 years ago
hopeurfree: yes, I know. The formal schism was in 1054 when the pope and the patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
DalisYT 2 years ago
I neither question nor am I concerned with how someone lives their life. However when someone claims to be "Christian' and yet does not comprehend very basic things about Christianity, I will speak up.
I can have much more patience for Agnostics or Atheists. As they are not claiming 'piety'.
And I do not care what denomination one is' that is unimportant.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Legend? To you maybe, but then again, you don't believe, I do.
So it is you who decides who is Christian? You make the decision? Where have I claimed piety?
It is evident you know little about Orthodoxy and it is evident you have scorn for Christians for some reason. That is your problem. I believe. You can support your abortions, you can support confiscation of others property and others work, but when you confiscate property from one person to give to another, that is robbery.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
It is Christ himself who condemns displays of external 'piety', as they are of themselves meaningless - & merely for show. True internal piety does not parade itself before men; it is humble, quiet & known but to God.
It makes itself manifest in prayer (in secret, as Christ taught), & in acts of genuine personal charity. Done quietly, in secret - so nobody knows of it, except God.
Nowhere have I indicated support for abortion or forced property confiscation.
19lfm12 2 years ago
19lfm12 or hopeurfree (or anyone else): what is your opinion of the Catholic Worker Movement?
DalisYT 2 years ago
Never heard of it.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Dalis, If you are talking about Constantine, you are confused. He became a follower of Christ.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
hopeurfree: no, I wasn't previously talking about Constantine. I was mainly being cheeky about the pope's Prada shoes.
But, speaking of Constantine, I saw his basilica in Rome. It was not a Christian basilica but a temple to his own deified self as emperor . The fragments of his Colossus are still in the Capitoline Museums. He executed his own wife and son. Yes, he was tolerant of Christianity (Edict of Milan). I leave it to God that he became a Christian himself - on his deathbed.
DalisYT 2 years ago
deathbed? You know not of what you speak. He saw a vision of a cross, prior to battle, which he then became a convert.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
hopeurfree: yes, about the deathbed. I think I know where the confusion is. Ok, so Constantine won the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312. He still dedicated that basilica in Rome to himself afterward. His self-deification didn't end, only that the emperor/deity was Christian. Then came the Edict of Milan in 313, which legalized Christianity and ended the Diocletian persecutions. I suppose the more accurate thing to say is that he was baptized on his deathbed, which he was.
DalisYT 2 years ago
The 'vision of a cross' legend is....mere legend. There is no proof of this & its primary source is his bishop-friend/biographer, who paints Constantine as if with a halo.
In fact he was a lifelong pagan who used the Church, co-opting willing Bishops, into a state relgion. A very useful political machine.....
He was not Xtian; his deeds belie that. If he converted on his deathbed, so be it.
But that does not erase what he did.
19lfm12 2 years ago
You are lost. The New Testament was written at various times, most 20-60 or so years after his death. The Apostle Paul wrote numerous letters, not all in the New Testament. The Catholic Bible certainly has more books than the Protestant Bible. Do you know what the early church was called, prior to being called Christian, since you seem to know all?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
The apostle Paul was a prolific writer, do you think all the things he wrote or said are in the Bible?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
religion is obscene
jerrydoubleu 2 years ago
If all you learn is only from the Bible (Catholic or Protestant?) you are missing quite a bit.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Do you not know the Bible is a collection of books written at different times. The bible you read today had its founding in about 350 A.D. (don't know exact date, but that is close) There are quite a few books that were not included in the bible you probably use.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
The Gospel is the teachings of Christ.....prior to 33AD. The message was transmitted orally AND in writing in the 1st century....regardless of the date ascribed to the scribal version of this or that text. Please get a grip on history!
The Dead Sea scrolls are SCRIBAL texts; that is to say they are copies of then extant texts.
19lfm12 2 years ago
I think you have your own way of understanding Christ, which is fine. However, there is much more to learn about the Apostles from the Orthodox Church. There is more to learn than just from the Bible.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
'There is more to learn than just from the Bible'
I see.
"Lord, to whom shall we go? For Thou hast the words of everlasting life!"
There is no human who has such words.
End of story.
19lfm12 2 years ago
In other words, you know nothing about Orthodoxy, you just don't like it for some reason or other.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
If the core of the Orthodox, or any church, is not founded in the Gospel - having the Beatitudes & Sermon on the Mount at its core - then it is not founded on Christ.
"But Lord, we Liturgized correctly, changing nothing; we kept strict church rules, customs - anathematizing all who did not".
Christ's response: "I know you not - for you showed not the mercy I taught".
19lfm12 2 years ago
Our church was founded prior to the writings of the Gospel.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Since the Gospel is the life & message of Christ, all 'churches' were founded as He 'wrote' (transmitted) his message, which IS the Gospel.
That different texts were written, transcribed (copied!) or edited/compiled later is irrelevant.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Religions are Evil! I'm so glad that more people are seeing through all this bullshit. When you sit back, and think what the Christian faith believes. It really is a following of Loonies. I've helped many people realize what bullshit this is. Star Wars is more believeable. Once you've liberated yourself from all this nonsense. It's such a beautiful feeling. To the people that get it. Help out kids, and young adults. Because that's where the brainwashing takes place. Stop the religious insanity!
SniPer9588 2 years ago
Atheism is Evil! I'm so glad that more people are seeing through all this bullshit. When you sit back, and think what Atheism believes. It really is a following of Loonies. I've helped many people realize what bullshit this is. Star Wars is more believeable [sic]. Once you've liberated yourself from all this nonsense. It's such a beautiful feeling. To the people that get it. Help out kids, and young adults. Because that's where the brainwashing takes place. Stop the atheist insanity!
DalisYT 2 years ago
Both of you, please stop attacking each others' beliefs.
FixedNewsChannel 2 years ago
I was trying to make a point about dogmatism.
DalisYT 2 years ago
Ok... So I see you have a problem with my Star Wars being more believeable comment? Jesus was supposed to be from a virgin birth. Well so was Vader. There was a parting of the red sea. Yoda didn't do that, but he did get Luke's plane out of the swamp with the force. When Jesus died he came back from tthe dead. Well at the end of Return of the Jedi, all the dead characters were there on top of the Ewoks house. Jesus walked on water. I don't remember Yoda doing that. See... more believeable.
SniPer9588 2 years ago
SniPer9588: I honestly don't care about Star Wars, but if you do, I'm fine with that. The word is spelled "believable."
DalisYT 2 years ago
@DalisYT- Twat!!! Did I spell that right?
SniPer9588 2 years ago
LMAO God bless you, SniPer9588.
DalisYT 2 years ago
@DalisYT Anytime!
SniPer9588 2 years ago
See how arrogant and bigoted your words sound when the intolerance is aimed at you? Look, you don't have the secret knowledge. You're just going to have to resign yourself to the fact that many people think and believe differently than you do, and we all have to live together.
DalisYT 2 years ago
The reason most ppl are Atheists is because they are disgusted by the overt lies & hypocrisy of those who 'claim to represent God".
They believe that what Jesus taught - the Sermon on the Mount, Beatitudes, which are the core of the Gospel - to be wonderful teaching. They also see the great incoherence between what Jesus did & taught - and the deeds of those who 'speak in His Name".
Most Atheists simply see through the BS of organized religion.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Then why not follow the words of Jesus Christ. You know nothing of the Orthodox Church, which is evident.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Obviously you have never had a civil conversation with an Atheist, nor tried to comprehend why they think as they do.
The Vatican has done the work of the Devil - in that they have done a wonderful job of turning ppl away from God. Instead of gently leading men to Him....and only those who are voluntarily interested!
The same can be said of all organized Xtianity - it serves itself, nor God.
19lfm12 2 years ago
My church has little to do with the Vatican. My church has changed little since the days when the Apostle Paul began following Christos.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Your church, as with hall of organized Xtianity, has been so tainted to various degrees.
But any discussion of the 'degree' is like a discussion of the degree of a corpses death.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Tainted? By what? Pretty much, nothing has changed. The wedding ceremony is 1700 years old, one of the last things changed. I don't think you know much about Orthodox Christians.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
The Gospel is not liturgical correctness....'high church'...or orthodox Orthodoxy. Or this or that 'custom'. That is not the Gospel; that is not Faith.
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice"....is not exactly coherent with the construct of Liturgical/Doctrinal/Dogmatic 'orthodoxy' as the foundation of faith.
It is not. And such is not Faith. It is mere externals.
Men shall be judged only by the Gospel; by internals.
19lfm12 2 years ago
I kinda' think you have to really believe to be an Atheist, you have to believe that everything just appeared out of nothing.
You must remember, humans are not perfect, especially Atheists who deny him.
Orthodox do not represent God, they follow Jesus Christ, who is one with God.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
DalisYT 2 years ago
....and thus precisely my point about 'non-believers'. Many, as Gandhi, liked Christ & his teachings.
....but not those who claimed to follow him.
19lfm12 2 years ago
@DalisYT I read your homepage and I want to point out your inherent hypocrisy in saying you look at crude language as a sign of being 'maleducated' (A word I have never encountered but can guess what you mean). You say atheism is bullshit and then you provide no evidence to support anything relating to a point. Your "intellegent, well-intentioned debate" adherences went out the window big time here. In conclusion, you appear to be doing the textbook definition of projecting.
trocknickel 1 year ago
@trocknickel If you search the comments, you'll see that the post 10 months ago(!) where I wrote "Atheism is bullshit!" is a word-for-word quote of another post by SniPer9588 that says "Religions are bullshit!". I simply switched one word for the other in order to demonstrate the ridiculousnous of such a remark when. And I said as much at the time ("I was trying to make a point about dogmatism").
I do not think atheism is bullshit nor am I a hypocrite nor am I projecting. Context is everything.
DalisYT 1 year ago
@DalisYT Yeah good enough. Anyway, its hard to figure out context when I see something like that amidst a sea of comments.
trocknickel 1 year ago
The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians don't allow for Abortion. You can either follow Jesus Christ and be a member or you can leave the church to lead whatever life you choose. If you choose to follow Jesus Christ, then you will follow the Church teachings and abortion is against the teachings of Jesus Christ. Can anyone imagine Jesus saying that killing a child is ok? Would never happen. So, Kennedy either needs to follow Jesus Christ or follow his ideology.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
If the Catholic Church were at all consistent, they would ban everyone who has ever divorced, cheated or supported war. I would still not agree with them, but at least they would be intellectually honest.
smathis98 2 years ago 15
Well said.
Those who actually bother to read what Christ said, note that He spoke volumes against war, church/state collaboration, adultery, divorce, violence.
Yet not a word against gays or couples who used contraception (which existed in primitive form), or women who had kids out of wedlock.
The only ppl He condemned were the leaders of organized religion & their crazed, fanatical followers.
...very interesting!
19lfm12 2 years ago
The bishop in over his head, its obvious.
Pilgrim812 2 years ago
Tobin shows himself to be a cipher with no independent thought. He could have answered Matthew's intelligent queries & still maintained the integrity of his POV.
But he just droned the buzzwords of the carefully scripted company song he is conditioned to sing.
Tobin is an uneducated drone of Opus Dei, who seems not to have a thought of his own - as all he is trained in is..
obedience.
Which is what he wants from you.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Comment removed
bdeaner 2 years ago
The bad bishop kept his cool as that is how he was conditioned at the North American College (the bishop factory). They are trained to implement policy, how to indoctrinate, & how to instill & demand obedience. In plain English:
Facilitators. Corporate Managers.
...not spiritual directors, much less believers in God.
19lfm12 2 years ago
I think Patwicia has been "outed" for her attempt to manipulate the data. Wonder if she'll ever return to the scene of the crime?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Comment removed
bdeaner 2 years ago
I really question whether you are an editor for anything Christian. I don't know too many Christians who think ripping a child from the womb is ok.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
As I said before. The Christian movement against abortion is new. The politics of abortion have only been steaming up church windows for about thirty years. My guess is that the issue is burning out. Christian people have had enough of it and would like to get back to Christian service. My engagement on this board is part of a research project for a book.
It's been fun. Thanks. And less hostile than I thought it would be.
Parting prayer: I wish you were all one - Jesus
patriciaredstone 2 years ago
If you are writing a book, don't be so careless with facts and figures. If you say that abortion has only been an issue for 30 years or so, it is because it was illegal before then, so no issue in the church. You somehow think abortion was common among followers of Christ, it wasn't, therefor not mentioned in the New Testament. You better hope your editor wants a slanted leftist view, because you would have a hard time getting your book past me, given the ideology you presented on this board.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Comment removed
bdeaner 2 years ago
Bronze age law. Excellent.
FixedNewsChannel 2 years ago
Since you & your brethren are so obsessed with Abortion, here is the solution to is:
Divest the assets of each Diocese, all the various (ha ha!) 'charities', those of all the cultic groups (Opus Dei, LC, etc.), & the Vatican itself - and give the proceeds to the poor.
Then the poor will be fed & cared for; pregnant women not consider Abortion as they would have material sufficiency - the lack of which is the main reason they seek abortion.
..and you would be obeying the Gospel.
19lfm12 2 years ago
19lfm12: poverty is only one factor which influences a woman's (or her boyfriend's, husband's, or parent's) decision to abort her child, so while it is admirable to want to appropriate money for them (hey, I'm with ya, man), how is that going to lower the numbers of women seeking abortions because they're birth control (inevitably) failed and they had exercised the mantra of unwanting their children with each daily pill? How will we get women to want children with Down Syndrome? etc. etc. etc.
DalisYT 2 years ago
Economics is the MAIN factor a woman contemplates Abortion. This has nothing to do with 'seflishness' & everything to do with practicality. Without material help during pregnancy AND for the first 3 years of the child's life, the mom simply cannot bear & properly care for the child.
Phariseeical moralizing is cruel & pointless, unless the Churcn is willing to OBEY Christ & give its wealth to the poor - thus solving the 'problem'.
19lfm12 2 years ago
19lfm12: and that's why no affluent women ever get abortions, right?
DalisYT 2 years ago
An irrelevant argument - as most affluent women have been educated about contraception & use it when desired. Thus the instances of 'unwanted pregnancy' among them are far fewer.
I am speaking of the majority of cases.
19lfm12 2 years ago
...but seriously, I agree with your statement that economics is a major factor that influences women to choose an abortion. That's cruel. Many of the pressures the woman didn't choose, but the onus is always on her. That's cruel too. The simple fact is, women choose abortion for lots of reasons, some of which we are right to question. It's the hard cases that are carted out to justify the industry, but the truth is, abortion profits from a lot of needless death.
DalisYT 2 years ago
This has zilch to do with whether the child was conceived in/out of wedlock, the result of rape or incest, or hedonism.
The point is that most women in crisis pregnancy cannot afford to bear & raise the child. Yelling about 'morality' does not solve the problem; money does.
I am opposed to abortion; but I am not going to point the 'shaking, accusing finger' at the woman in crisis pregnancy. It is HER business; & unless I can materi8ally help her I should STFU!
19lfm12 2 years ago
19lfm12: precisely the thing we're called to do is to materially help people, isn't it? I think, on one level, human suffering is everyone's business. The woman has the ultimate power of life or death unless she's forced, but she's not alone in this. I feel like, the reason we are being told to look the other way is so that this can continue, so she'll be alone, so there will be more abortion, not less. I mean, the groups that profit are hardly impartial when it comes to reproductive choice.
DalisYT 2 years ago
Most women in crisis pregnancy ARE alone; which is part of the problem. And what few church related initiatives there are have no clue how to reach out to them.....without shaming them. Hence why most women would not even THINK of calling a church for help - as they will either get moralizing - or nice platitudes w/no practical, material help.
Rather like giving a homeless man a lecture on personal responsibility...but not a speck of food.
19lfm12 2 years ago
ever heard of adoption?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Very well. But first you must reach out in kindness & the utmost sensitivity to women in crisis pregnancy. No shaming; no sermonizing.
You want them to carry the child to term? Fine. Now house, clothe, feed her & give her medical care....all free. In this way you make it POSSIBLE for her to keep the child.
But without the material charity, any attempts to 'call her to conversion' are somewhere between cruel & stupid.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Sounds like you want women to have abortions unless they are given a free living. Not gonna' happen. Most women I know work until several weeks before birth, why the free ride? IF they do give the child up for adoption, their expenses can be paid by the adopting parents.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
"Whatsoever you do to the least of your brothers, that you do unto Me. .....that which you do not do for the least of your brothers, that you do not do unto Me"
- Jesus Christ
(remember him?)
19lfm12 2 years ago
I don't remember him, I know him. Maybe you should get to know him.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Organized Christianity - the Vatican in particular - present a religion ABOUT God....nor OF much less IN Him. God is merely an abstract concept, useful to the Administrators as a medium of control.
Not as the object of loyalty & faith.
The clergy, hierarchy & the Church organization itself are presented (and enforced....) as the object of virtual worship & adoration.
Any objective observer would readily see this clearly.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Do you put the Orthodox in this light?
hopeurfree 2 years ago
Yes. I am not entertaining a discussion of 'how' or to what extent'. An objective analysis will be self-explanatory.
...and I take no pleasure in saying this; yet it is the truth.
19lfm12 2 years ago
19lfm - I don't think you understand what that means.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
I know what I have written & did so for a reason:
The Church skewed off on a horrid trajectory in the 4th century at Nicea, when it married & sold out to Mammon, becoming a state religion. That is NOT what Christ intended.
Nor are the horrid deeds of its Administration over subsequent centuries.
19lfm12 2 years ago
I don't think you have any idea what Christ intended.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
All quite clear in the Gospel.
The 'church' was to spread Christ's teaching (Sermon on the Mount & Beatitudes as its core) to those who would willingly hear - and to teach it by their personal example.
All money/goods received were to be given to the poor. They were not to have/hold ANY material goods; they were to rely ONLY on Providence for sustenance. They were not to seek office, honors, titles or earthly reward. Rule was to be by consensus, not monarchial fiat.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Where on earth did you hear all this? Certainly not Orthodoxy.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
It is all very plain, in the Gospel.
What is the Gospel? It is the teaching of Jesus Christ. The core is the Beatitudes & the Sermon on the Mount. All else He taught is coherent with this, and is the fulfillment of the Law & the Prophets.
He taught mostly via parables that only those who have ears to hear & eyes to see...would hear & see. Those blind to the Holy Spirit will not hear or see - even were the Gospel before them daily.
...like clerics.
19lfm12 2 years ago
I really think you do not know how the Orthodox Church works. The core is not Beatitudes & Sermon on the Mount. Yes, he taught by parables, for they were easy to understand and remember. Those blind to the Holy Spirit were disbelievers.
Maybe you got that from the Roman Catholic Church or some Protestant Church, I don't know. However, you need to read more of St. Paul, who wrote over 1/2 of the New Testament.
hopeurfree 2 years ago
As all Jesus taught is summed up in the Beatitudes & Sermon on the Mount, these ARE the core of the Gospel. The Parables are inexorably linked to this & coherent. Thus, this IS the Gospel.
No, the Parables are not easy to understand - except in superficial sense. Most do not internalize them, thus they do not believe. Thus they see - yet see not.
19lfm12 2 years ago
Jesus makes it very clear that those most 'blind to the Holy Spirit"...are the oh-so pious pew sitters. Those who think themselves 'believers'.
Many of them may be in for a surprise.....
19lfm12 2 years ago
"The Church skewed off on a horrid trajectory in the 4th century at Nicea, when it married & sold out to Mammon, becoming a state religion."
Hey, man, those Prada shoes were a gift!
DalisYT 2 years ago
St. Augustine (and Dorothy Day) said, "The Church is a whore, but she's my mother."
DalisYT 2 years ago