ou object to the wisdom & judgments of God & ask if His actions are fair, right or good ? Have you asked yourself what is good ? What human or even yourself has the ability to make determinations about the nature of the universe, human nature or the value of people's lives. You inveigh against God with me,but I am not a moral authority- only God is the Creator &source of values. So if U dislike the fullness of what Creator has made what on earth do U mean by good?
If you ask me, the probability of the existence of A god is... well... it depends on what you define as a god. If really powerful machines count, there's probably some of those in this massive universe, build by whatever alien race was smart enough to get that far without nuking themselves.
But the probability for the ABRAHAMIC god is... actually dramatically lower then more plausible magic creatures such as santa claus and goblins and such. It's horrible odds.
OK Theincognitusme.... Yes you and RawJS were correct in your assertions of the origin of the Golden Rule. Now if your gratification from admittance of error from a percieved adversary is complete. I will continue with my musings if I may?
On the whole God topic as I cannot prove nor disprove his/her existance I guess to say there is no God may be a bit presumptuous as no man alive today can say he knows all about the universe and all it's wonders! Still there is one fabulous rule that comes only from the bible and that is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" If every human practiced this philisophically and practically the world would be a better place!
@TheMuskokaman You are wrong to say that ideal comes ONLY from the bible. Many versions of that have been expressed in Greek, Islam, Sikh, and other religions even before the bible was written. And either way, a witty statement endorsing morality is by no means a reason to believe that the Abrahamic God is real.
@TheRawJS Bring the fucking evidence forth stupid or shut the fuck up. I never said I believe in the Abrahamic god if you would actually read the statement and understand it before shooting off your big fucking yap we could avoid these little arguments!
@TheMuskokaman Evidence that it appears in virtually every world religion is easily accessible to you - Google it. Confucius said it five centuries before the time of Jesus. And even before that, the Egyptians had it written down. So once again, you are wrong to believe that it comes "only from the bible". And excuse me for assuming the you believe in the Abrahamic god. It's a logical deduction based off the fact that you believe the bible is worth listening to.
@TheRawJS Man you can google any thing you want on the internet! Tell ya what snopes it! see for yourself. Moral compass issues (ethics) have been taught especially in the west (like it or not) from Christianity. That's why most people are so screwed up in the west. There should be a code of ethical behaviour for humankind regardless of religion otherwise anarchy will rule. This is a fundamental truth like it or not. I do not endorse the bible or the koran or any other ancient writings!
@TheMuskokaman Ignoring your little outburst, it doesn't appear you ever conceded that the Bible was the first place to ever discuss the golden rule.
Confucius has a story that describes this rule nearly word for word in a document titled "Analects," written in 400 BC, more than 400 years before the Bible.
Even more impressive is the Sanskrit epic Mahabharata, over 900 years before the Bible. "One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self."
@TheIncognitusMe OK Theincognitusme.... Yes you and RawJS were correct in your assertions of the origin of the Golden Rule. Now if your gratification from admittance of error from a percieved adversary is complete. I will continue with my musings if I may?
Atheists will often say that the burden of proof to show that God exists is on the Christian. There's a beloved saying of criminolgists: "Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence". To rule out the existence of God, an atheist needs more than just the absence of evidence, he needs some positive evidence of absence. What is that positive evidence of absence? Curious...
@Truenorthman100 we don't rule it out, we just say that it is unlikely enough to not take in to consideration all together. In other words, if you had a suspect with no evidence of him committing a crime, would you find him guilty?
@quzishen We can now say that the universe had a beginining. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Therefore the universe had a cause. Something cannot come from nothing. If something can come into being from nothing, then it becomes inexplicable why just anything or everthing doesn't come from nothing. Common experience and scientific evidence confirm the truth of those premises. So saying that an intelligence cause is unlikley is foolishness.
@Truenorthman100 i can't believe so few understand the big bang theory. The big bang theory doesn't say that something came from nothing, only that the universe at one time was much smaller in size and that it is expanding, if you go to any scientific video it'll say when electrons were able to spin when the 4 forces stabilized, etc. then they'll say, and that is the extent of our knowledge, meaning the big bang theory only goes so far. for you god to be the true god, the chances are almost 0.
@quzishen Space, time, and the universe as we know it did have a beginning. It is the 'material' that makes up our universe that doesn't. That 'material' made up the singularity, which eventually led to the Big Bang.
Though nobody should confuse this for me saying the universe was ever created, or came from nothing.
@KOICrowz To think that it would have a creator you would need evidence, and if there's none, i won't believe that a being created the universe, and saying that a creator created the universe is absurd. You said something cannot come from nothing, now that is not true, however, if there was no evidence of something coming from nothing, it is no more absurd than a creator. Now if we pop back into reality, something can come from nothing and most particles have been observed coming into existence.
I literally said at the end of my comment that nobody should confuse my comment to mean that I think the universe was ever 'created'. So, if that wasn't clear enough..
I'm an atheist, and I know that the probability of a god existing is incredibly low. The universe as we know it was not created, but it does have a starting point.
@KOICrowz Having a starting point is something i am not sure about. However, the laws of physics do break down in extreme situations, such as expected in the big bang theory.
@quzishen How can you not be sure about it when the big bang theory itself says the universe has a starting point?
I don't think you understand what I'm saying? The universe, AS WE KNOW IT, has a starting point. I honestly don't see why you're throwing out the big bang theory, but disagreeing on.. well, the big bang part.
@KOICrowz i see the parts where the laws of physics broke down, but i can't find any reason or evidence to believe that it was the starting point of the universe, or that there even is a start to the universe. There might be evidence that i haven't found but, i haven't found any yet.
@KOICrowz "The Universe continued to grow in size and fall in temperature, hence the typical energy of each particle was decreasing. Symmetry breaking phase transitions put the fundamental forces of physics and the parameters of elementary particles into their present form." found it on wikipedia and they referenced it to Kolb and Turner (1988), chapter 7, in mathematical formulas, the fundamental forces have been shown to breakdown, it was not a birth of the universe as much as a transition.
@quzishen You desperately need help with reading comprehension, because I've been calling it a change, not a sudden appearance or creation.
So, for the last time, the universe AS WE KNOW IT, you know, with space and time and our laws, HAD A BEGINNING. As in, when expansion began, OUR UNIVERSE BEGAN. I'm not saying it came from nothing, I'm not saying it was created, I am saying that what makes up our universe changed into our universe during the big bang.
@KOICrowz ...you mean to say that we agreed on this all along... okay then, have a good day. I still think that saying it had an beginning isn't very agreeable, but it is a transition, and we both know the facts, we just phase it differently.
@quzishen You're taking the idea of a beginning the wrong way, though. Saying our universe has a beginning is sort of like saying a diamond ring has a beginning. The diamond and gold already exist, but them being changed into that exact form was the beginning of the ring.
@quzishen A deliberate abuse if science. The theories in question have to do with particles orginating as a fluctuation of energy contained in a vacuum. In physics the "vacuum" is a sea of flucuating energy governed by physical laws and having a physical structure. To tell people that such on such theories something comes from nothing is a distortion of those theories.
@Truenorthman100 Saying 'the universe began to exist' is not equivalent to 'the universe was created'.
No credible scientist will say that the universe came from nothing, so drop that.
Saying an intelligent creator of the universe existing is unlikely is not foolish. Until such a claim can be reasonably demonstrated, or hell, anything supernatural or divine can be reasonably demonstrated, the likelihood of a god will remain at an unbelievably low percentage.
I think the first premise that "whatever begins to exist has a cause" is virtually undenialble for any sincere seeker of truth. For something to come into being without any cause whatsoever would be to come into being from nothing.
No credible scientist will say that the universe came from nothing, but many have attempted to find a natural cause outside intelligence. Those same scientists likely have a problem with the Law of Uniformity. Many scientists have a philosophical bias.
Is that like Ockham's razor, that it's unlikely our place in the universe is special etc.? (that's not a law, it's good advice when sorting probabilities)
You are dead right that it's not the general opinion that everything came from nothing these days, a multiverse is thought more probable, but why do you think intelligence, itself a thing, could predate every'thing'??
@Truenorthman100 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' - You neglect to mention that people, at least in America, are not tried based on this. Attorney's do not tell jurors, "well look, they can't absolutely prove he didn't do it, so you should convict, because it's a possibility."
It also doesn't make it rational to believe a faith-based claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and until such evidence is presented, it is perfectly okay for me to call bullshit.
@KOICrowz 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' You might want to bring that up with criminalogists. Apparently it is a common saying among them.
To claim life evolved is to demand a miracle. The simplest conceivable form of single-celled life should have at least 600 different protein molecules. The mathematical probability that even one typical protein could form by chance arrangements of amino acid sequences is essentially zero (a)—far less than 1 in 10^450. To appreciate the magnitude of 10^450, realize that the visible universe is about 10^28 inches in diameter.
There's a big difference between a fact supported by rational evidence and a belief supported, by faith or words from the Bible, which can't be validated.
God is a spirit, an immaterial conscious being. All things in the universe consists of matter and/or energy, so if God isn't matter, is energy by definition. Energy is the capacity to do work, is eternal, omnipresent, wasn't created and can't be destroyed, can create matter, was the only thing present before the BB, and the energy required to make the universe must had been powerful. All these match Biblical descriptions of God. He wants us to elevate our consciousness to the next level, is real
God is a spirit, an immaterial conscious being. All things in the universe consists of matter and/or energy, so if God isn't matter, is energy by definition. Energy is the capacity to do work, is eternal, omnipresent, wasn't created and can't be destroyed, can create matter, was the only thing present before the BB, and the energy required to make the universe must had been powerful. All these match Biblical descriptions of God. He wants us to elevate our consciousness to the next level, is real
I know GOD is real because, when the bible was written there was no science like today, in the bible it talks about the vast number of stars, alignment of planets, the importance of blood... look at water, it has no taste, its clear, has no nutrition value, and yet, we can't live without it. way back when the Americas were founded, many tribes and such didn't have to grow food, everything they needed was there in front of them. GOD provided everything they needed, have fun in hell...
I don't believe god is real because there is no science in the bible, we need water to exist because we evolved on a environment/planet with water (along with other things found in our environments), I have no idea why god would provide food to heathen Native Americans who didn't believe in him, and I have no idea why god is now allowing millions to die like flies right now with no food "right in front of them".
@brennanjohnify In the beginning God created the Heavens, Earth, fish, animals, and man. God created everything to perfection as God is Himself perfect. God gave Adam "the first man" everything he needed to survive. Eve "the first female" is created for Adam by God. Satin tempts Eve and Eve sucumbs to sin and Adam does as well by disobeying God. Here is where humanity left the perfection of God. God kicked them out of paradise and here is where life's sufferings began.
@thebestninja This is basic myth making. Moreover, you said nothing about postlapsarian man. You said that when Native Americans came to the Americas, there was food for them. Are you saying Native Americans came to America in a prelapsarian state? If so, then there were humans that were not descendants of Adam, but somehow made it to the Americas before the fall of man, and also somehow were helped by god with food despite never believing in him. Your story logic doesn't work.
@cheer10603 Finite things cannot come from infinite things, logically, any more than imperfect things can "come from" perfect things. Water came into existence the same way all matter did.
If you are going to propose that something exists and is infinite, then EVERYTHING that exists is both that "something" and infinite. Observation of reality demonstrates that this is false.
@cheer10603 You need to read a science book. This information is widely available. (All matter was forged in stars.)
When I observe reality, I see finite things that exist. These finite things are not infinite, and they are not god. If god existed and was infinite, then ALL the things I observe would have to be both god and infinite.
@greyeyed123 ~I am aware of what is in the science book. I just don't really view all of it as a proven fact and that it happened.
~Also, I didn't say the finite things were infinite. I meant to say that in order for them to exist, there has to be something infinite out there that all matter came from.
@cheer10603 There are no "proven facts" in science.
And I KNOW you said finite things came from infinite things. My point is that THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.
Cut infinity in half. What do you have? Infinity. Cut it into a million pieces. Take one of those million pieces, and what do you have? Infinity. You can't get to "finite".
Infinity is not a "real" thing, it is a concept. Finite things cannot come from infinite things, as there are no such thing as infinite "things".
@greyeyed123 But, you said that all matter was forged in stars earlier. But, that still doesn't answer my question of where matter comes from. Where did the stars come from? There had to be something in existence that made the stars.
You and I. We are both finite because from an atheist perspective we don't live eternally. We live and we die....nothing special. We are a product of evolution and cells and have no purpose but to advance society.
@cheer10603 "But, you said that all matter was forged in stars earlier. But, that still doesn't answer my question of where matter comes from."
Actually, IT DOES. It comes FROM STARS.
Note: there is no "atheist perspective". If you think matter comes from your god, YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT. I don't have to do anything. All the evidence thus far suggests matter is natural, like everything else in the natural world.
No one is suggesting existence itself started with the Big Bang.
@greyeyed123 lol saying the material originates in stars is not the same as saying matter "comes from" stars. it's not even close. neither does the "evidence", whatever that might mean (I presume you mean the field of science), yet provide any reasonable speculation, let alone verifiable framework, as to how it might have arisen. as to it being "natural", the mind boggles.
a simple, i don't know and neither do you, would suffice, and be a far truer reflection of affairs.
@thespacialone Let me ask you this. Where does existence (not "the universe") come from?
If it comes from god, then god didn't exist a prior because if he did, then existence didn't "come from" him.
If it came from nothing, then you have existence coming from nonexistence--a contradiction.
If existence only comes from existence, you have no problem--existence in some form simply IS, and there was never a condition outside space-time in which nonexistence was a state.
@greyeyed123 I would be fairly sure what we might term the existential realm was, pretty much by definition, without beginning or end. I perceive things to exist. Why do I think that should change or be capable of change? Sure things change within it, and we are wired to extrapolate patterns from what we observe, but all I can know is that "it" is. Whatever I might think of as God has only partial bearing on / meaning for existence. How do you see it?
@thespacialone "Whatever I might think of as God has only partial bearing on / meaning for existence. How do you see it?"
I see it that your god idea can have NO bearing on existence as existence. To suggest god created existence is to say existence didn't exist before existence, which would be god didn't exist.
Exactly the kind of problem you would expect if a god didn't exist, and existence simply was existence. Asking where X came from is nonsensical in this context.
@thespacialone It is close, as it is exactly where matter comes from. If you want to ask where stars come from, that's a different question. (You are aware that we can "create" matter in the lab under similar conditions found in the sun? They can even make gold in this way--which would make the alchemists of old happy...except for the fact that it costs more energy to make the gold than the gold is worth.)
We DO know where matter comes from. Do a little reading. You are star stuff.
@greyeyed123 You partially refute that statement by citing those experiments. The "matter" there come from a guy in a white coat or from "star". It is also allegorical. Maybe "star" is the particle physicist in the lab; maybe some other cause or thing predates it.
You come from your folks or from star? Maybe your material self "originated" in the stars, but in a real sense you "came from" your progenitors. "Comes from" implies narrative, one your reductio ad absurdem stance cannot deliver.
@thespacialone If you accept that existence as such simply IS, as you seem to do, then why are you asking where things come from?
I think you mean anecdotal, not "allegorical". And no, it's not anecdotal, as it was actually done (from base metals), and is reproducible, falsifiable, predictive, and observable.
"Come from" has no meaning at all if you accept that existence simply IS, as you already said you accept. I don't understand your point at all. (You do accept chemistry, right?)
@cheer10603 did you see this? i spent two years trying to get atheists to refute any of it, but to no avail. what a shame that often well-meaning and otherwise intelligent people have such a blindspot when it comes to defending the indefensible.
does god exist? well, that only the powerful have secrets goes, for me, at least some way to substantiating the notion.
You have just become the most ignorant person I am aware of. A "fact" is merely a verifiable observation. If I observe that my pen falls every time I drop it, and that this experiment can be verified by anyone, then gravity is a fact. As it turns out, there are many many facts. Get used to it.
@drche420 There are many more than one comment. Which sentence and comment are you referring to? I see none that connect to what you were saying about facts, or at least, would be contrary to what you've said. I would agree with everything you said about facts, and all my posts align with that definition of fact.
@drche420 Ah. The problem here is "proven", as the word carries with it an absolute conclusion. There are no absolute conclusions in science. Science operates in the realm of evidence, which is always contingent on new evidence or new observations.
If science "proved facts", then new evidence or observations could not contradict those "proven facts". Clearly that is absurd, as the driving engine of scientific discovery IS new evidence and new observations, never "proven", never absolute.
You are misusing the word "proven". Since a fact is merely a verifiable observation, it can be a true fact or a false fact. If I claim that your shirt is yellow and we both look to see it is blue, then my claim is an untrue fact. If I claim something that cannot be verified or tested, then it is not a fact by definition. "Proven" means a claim has been verified as a true fact, it has nothing to do with absolute certainty.
@drche420 ""Proven" means a claim has been verified as a true fact, it has nothing to do with absolute certainty."
You are wrong. Do some reading. I left a link on your channel last night.
"Proof" is a mathematical concept. It has nothing to do with demonstrating things in reality. The only way we demonstrate things in reality is with evidence, and evidence is always contingent on new evidence and new observations.
When people say something is "proven", then mean it is absolutely true.
@drche420 If you want to redefine "proof" to not be mathematical, and say that something can be proven true and still be false, fine. But what most people mean when they say something is "proven true" is that there will never be any evidence in the future contradicting its "truth"--which, by definition, means it is absolute.
Science doesn't work in absolutes, and can never say "x is absolutely true". All it can ever say is nothing has yet demonstrated it false.
You are being dishonest. We both know that a mathematical proof is just one use of the word proof. If somehow you didn't know, please don't take my word for it. Look it up. Again, a fact is not necessarily true. A fact only needs to be verifiable. Therefore, a false fact would prove a claim false and a true fact would prove a claim true. However, if the claim is untestable, then it cannot be a fact at all. At least try to be honest with me.
@drche420 You need to be honest with yourself. When people say something is "proven true", does that mean they think it could be false? Of course not.
When you use the word "prove", you suggest that science has stopped inquiry on a specific question. But science NEVER stops inquiry. It is ALWAYS dependent on new evidence and new observations, and you can't know what those could be a priori, so suggesting it is "proven true" is anathema to science AS science.
@drche420 "If you can't admit you're wrong, don't try to conversate with someone. "
Also, "conversate" is not a word. And you dangled a preposition when you said, "You have just become the most ignorant person I am aware of." It should be, "You have just become the most ignorant person of whom I am aware."
We're on the same side, dude. If you try to say science "proves" things, theists are going to hit you over the head for making the same kind of arguments they make--and they'll be right.
Let me get this straight... You think we're on the "same side", yet you don't think science can prove things. Then when you realize you're wrong you attack my spelling and grammar? Sad.
@drche420 Good grief. Even Matt Dillahunty has explained the difference between proof and evidence. I've sent you two links explaining the difference in science. I've explained it here.
If you REALLY see the word "proof" as a synonym for "evidence", why are you arguing with me? We agree in regard to reality. The only thing we disagree about is what people mean when they say something is proven.
If you REALLY think that people think that something can be false when "proven true", fine.
Matt also explained the difference between a colloquial belief and absolute certainty. Absolute certainty is useless. When someone uses the word "proof", they are not talking in absolutes. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
@drche420 "When someone uses the word "proof", they are not talking in absolutes. Why is this so hard for you to understand?"
Because you are misunderstanding how language works. When YOU say the word "proof", you may simply mean evidence. Most people do not mean "evidence", they mean absolute certainty when they say "proof".
This is why Matt explained why he doesn't use the word "proof" for scientific evidence, because "proof" is mathematical, not scientific.
I don't believe god is real because there is no science in the bible, we need water to exist because we evolved on a environment/planet with water (along with other things found in our environments), I have no idea why god would provide food to heathen Native Americans who didn't believe in him, and I have no idea why god is now allowing millions to die like flies right now with no food "right in front of them".
@brennanjohnify So you can't really show any evidence. Just using the old Christian "well look around you!" response which holds no validity since you can't prove a god.
By the way since God created everything who created God and the one before Gods father and so forth.
@iwork4themightyone Well I know it's your faith, it's just faith isn't evidence. And I need evidence to live a life with reason and intelligence and happiness cause I can prove what I see and comprehend. Not just a comforting best friend that I can't see.
@stoicfan What evidence do you have from science that the world evolved in the first place? Just cause we have faith that God exists doesnt mean we dont have proof or evidence that he does. The cosmological argument is one of them, an object cannot come from nothing. So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God. Christians just have faith that God is infinite. You do not need faith you just need evidence that their is a higher being in the world.
@jrn987 You just kind of messed yourself up by saying "an object cannot come from nothing. So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God." So something was already here to create God?....interesting. Who created the thing that created God and so on. And yes you do need evidence for a higher power which can't be done with an old book that has fairy tales, or at least has shown any good evidence for a Christian god. And there's more gods then yours. Yours may be wrong.
@stoicfan How did i mess myself up by saying "an object cannot come from nothing. So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God" ? Please explain that to me. I said God was infinite so obviously you read it wrong or you dont know what infinite means. I never said something created God, he was always there and always will be there. It is not a book of fairytales... Fairytales are like Cinderella and Snow White not stories you can find in a old history book,
@jrn987 Cinderella and Snow White aren't thousands of years old like the Bible. We didn't have the science or knowledge we have now. And I know what infinite means. I just don't believe in it, maybe I should state that first. And you said "someone" not infinity/something for the creation of God, that confused me. So infinity has a brain and decided to make God? And I want to know what do you believe of other cultures before Christianity and their Gods. (Christians stole a lot from the Egyptians)
@stoicfan Yeah I know they are not thousands of years old and that we have knowledge and science they didn't have back then. But theres not proof either of evolution or the Big Bang. But yet we have the Bible and stories and people are listed in old historical records from it. When i said someone i meant God. "So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God" I meant that God was there to create the world not that something infinite before him had created him.
@jrn987 So you believe in stories about talking snakes and Noahs Ark? makes me want to end this pointless debate we've been having for the last couple days even more. Every culture has stories and fairy tales since the beginning. Doesn't mean their true but they're STORIES like Harry Potter. We know WW2 cause there's photos and videos. But we don't have proof a man that rose from the dead and walked on water XD Still haven't answered about the cultures thousands of years before Christianity...
@stoicfan So what i believe in that? You keep saying i dont have proof yet you havent shown or told me any proof that you have that evolution is real or that the Big Bang really happened
@jrn987 We never claim to. We're asking for proof, we have doubt, you preach certainty. Yet there's no proof, so we continue to doubt. It's really quite simple. And even some Christian Scientists believe in evolution. Here's an entire Christian site dedicated to the proof of evolution, and they do it nicely. Though I don't believe in the religion, the people on the site admit that evolution can't be denied and that earth wasn't created 6000 years ago in 7 days, go to it proof-of-evolution. com
@tellnet well the world had to come from something. where did all the matter in the universe come from? matter is finite, and cannot create iteself. Therefore, something infinite, not bound by time or space, aka God, had to bring all finite matter into existence.
You claim (on faith alone - without evidence) that your godfella just is and always was - that is childish nonsense of the lowest order - it is an excuse for your ignorance.
There is no shame in ignorance:
Of all things some are ignorant.
Of some things all are ignorant.
Excusing your ignorance with makey uppy bullshit is not ignorance.
Well we at least have some evidence he might do, certainly more than a God, we know that money appears under the pillow from somewhere. God on the other hand decides to remain hidden. Maybe drunk in a bar with some hooker perhaps. I'd have more respect for him if he was.
Describing god is like describing Big Foot. You can't talk about the family structure of the Big Foot creature until you can prove Big Foot exists. You can't explain the aerodynamics of a Griffin's wings until you've proven a Griffin exists. See where I'm going with this?
"Well he is infinite, that is, not bound by time and space. He is not made of finite matter"
Let's play by your rules for a moment and think about how lopsided your statement is. "Back then" you died of horrible diseases, wild beasts, other people, floods, tornados, hurricanes, extreme heat, extreme cold, sea creatures, infections, gravity and on & on
The world was hardly this paradise, in fact, more was put there to kill you then to help you live.
Also, every living thing on the planet shares a need for water. Plants, Animals, People. That's evidence of evolution.
@fred10538 Yes, that is a valid point, and hence that is why I included several poisons. Perhaps it will be better if I said multiple people drinking those multiple poisons and moving multiple mountains?
You still have the possibility of aliens messing with us, but that is there for almost everything.
@fred10538 That is how the scientific method works. A hypothesis makes various claims. These claims are then tested and if these test are passed, it can become a theory.
@fred10538 Yes, I understand that throughout history there has not been a single piece of evidence for God, however that alone does not mean there will not be any (the fact that his definition is contradictory and thus impossible to fulfil is).
However regardless, if something makes a claim, and that claim is tested and found to be true, that is evidence (potentially very minor evidence) of that something.
@fred10538 Would you also say that gravity is really just aliens manipulating objects with advanced technology?
There is a point where the alternative explanation gets just as (if not more) unfounded and insane.
Yes I understand there are other explanations, however that doesn't mean it doesn't count as evidence for any of them. Something can be evidence for 2 contradictory things, other evidence is then used to determine which is true.
@fred10538 But there would be that. It would be someone telling the mountain to move (who claims to be a follower of said God, and who is doing it in the name of God), and then the mountain moving, straight after. What would you accept as a clear link between the mountain moving and a god?
@fred10538 There was also the part about moving a mountain by telling it to move. Not as an Earthquake or it falling, but having it actually move, can you think of any way that could happen?
@fred10538 Provide any reason that would prevent thionyl chloride, concentrated hydrochloric acid, concentrated hydrofluoric acid (one of the deadliest things I know), concentrated sodium hydroxide and hydrogen cyanide (taken at different times so one wont cancel the other) killing someone.
I am very smart. Yes there can be lots of reasons, however they will not work on everything. I do know what evidence is, and I do think critically.
@fred10538 And I would think them being able to drink so many different lethal things, and not being hurt by it would constitute evidence. I still wouldn't worship God, I would just believe he exists. But that will never happen.
@fred10538 I know, however it is somewhat smart by the church, convince everyone in the world/nation to give us 10% of their wealth, and God will show himself. Who really, cares, they will rich beyond belief, especially if the church was a single entity.
However I would much prefer a different test. Get a Christian to move a mountain, and drink concentrated: HCl, HF, NaOH, Thionyl Chloride, HCN, and so on, and get bitten by a fierce snake (aka inland taipan). If they live, I will believe.
@fred10538 Essentially it requires everyone on Earth to give 10% of their wealth to the church, then God will give us so much stuff there isn't enough room to store it.
"God gives you a choice and its a simple one. Its Gods way of culling out the infected"
But if god created us, then is he not responsible for the infection you speak of? Also, if god has a 'plan', he already aware of the outcome of who will be going to heaven or hell. Which negates the notion that it is a choice.
All these guys talk about is unicorns, santa claus, and leprechauns. I just watched a video of the guy on the right is dressed like a woman. This religion of theirs causes people to struggle with their gender. Atheism = INSANITY
"A fool says in his heart there is no god" A wise man will say it out loud.
A fool will say out loud "there is a god"
I do not say there is no god, I say there most likely is no god. I also say the god of the Bible does not exist.
What you have quoted is a defence mechanism, where you can dismiss others as fools, for simply not believing. However that is just an ad hominem attack and will never work in a proper debate.
@blackjeffrey1 You can deny the redemptive work of Christ on the cross all you want, but it don't change reality. Jesus is coming back and you will be without excuse. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
@virtualguitarist You can't really use the bible to prove anything... Jesus was supposed to come back in the year 1000 and then on the year 2000 and then some people said some priest didnt count the days right and the years were a bit late, so it was 2004... Saying the "work" of christ is a reality without knowing.. doesn't make it true nor real. The bible isn't a good source for anything couz can't cpick and choose what is correct and what isn't . It's either all true or non of it is.
@virtualguitarist Plus if your god will send me to ETERNAL suffering for simply not believing than he's evil, and you're an imoral person for being in favor of such a god. Yes, christians are imoral. A person from another religion could make the exact same claim you did , just replace "Christ" with their deity on your comment. doesn't make their religion reality either.
@virtualguitarist I understand that you may be scared shitless of death, and believing in after life may be a relief for you. I'm scared alot, that I may be wrong... maybe god does exist... but I have principles, and I won't believe in a god or whatever simply because i'm scared. I refuse to use fear as a reason to belief
@RaitoDenki Why would i be scared of death? We Christians believe in life. God does not send people to hell for not believing, people send them selves by choice. Hell is the default position for the non believer. God gives you a choice and its a simple one. Its Gods way of culling out the infected.
@virtualguitarist you're idiotic. he didnt give me any choice. because i dont believe in him... i dont believe he exists. HE WILL send me to hell if he does exist, because i don't believe.your god SENDS atheists to hell, it says so in the bible, the one book you believe in. you christians are imoral worshiping such deity, and sometimes you even feel good knowing that some innocent people are suffering in hell, for something like belief.
@virtualguitarist did he also give a choice to the children born in a muslim country? where they teach them their own religion and not christianity? do they deserve to burn forever because they were born in the wrong place? USE UR BRAIN its there to be used.
@virtualguitarist No. If your God exists, he sends people to hell for not believing in him or not worshipping him. God chooses where to send people, just because he defaults to sending people to hell, does not mean he is not choosing that. He chose it once, and stuck with it. If God exists, he chooses where people go. If I go to hell, that will be his choice, not mine.
Such an eloquent and comprehensive display of knowledge and information about an indisputably as yet non-existential entity, and all without the benefit of either observance or evidence.
@virtualguitarist Quoting Bible wont really help you. It will not change reality either, neither will you asserting it to be true. Reality is that the Bible is fiction, Jesus is imaginary.
Also, what redemptive work? All Jesus dying on the cross serves as, is propaganda.
@virtualguitarist Also, the end times have been "soon" for around 2000 years, with an Earth which is only a few thousand years old. Jesus is way overdue, guess why, he isn't coming back, as he was never here.
I BELIEVE IN THE FLYING SPAGUETTI MONSTER...AND IF YOU DONT... YOU'RE GONNA BE BURN IN TOMATO SAUCE FOR ALL THE ETERNITY.
;D and caps lock makes me more right (or not)
TheBrunozxc 3 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"God is the Lorax" -Now that's a fuckin quote!
x513xSparks 4 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show
ou object to the wisdom & judgments of God & ask if His actions are fair, right or good ? Have you asked yourself what is good ? What human or even yourself has the ability to make determinations about the nature of the universe, human nature or the value of people's lives. You inveigh against God with me,but I am not a moral authority- only God is the Creator &source of values. So if U dislike the fullness of what Creator has made what on earth do U mean by good?
shieldsff 4 days ago
If you ask me, the probability of the existence of A god is... well... it depends on what you define as a god. If really powerful machines count, there's probably some of those in this massive universe, build by whatever alien race was smart enough to get that far without nuking themselves.
But the probability for the ABRAHAMIC god is... actually dramatically lower then more plausible magic creatures such as santa claus and goblins and such. It's horrible odds.
TheSkunkCat 3 weeks ago
OK Theincognitusme.... Yes you and RawJS were correct in your assertions of the origin of the Golden Rule. Now if your gratification from admittance of error from a percieved adversary is complete. I will continue with my musings if I may?
TheMuskokaman 1 month ago
LOVE the entry song
kyral210 1 month ago 3
god likes to play hide and seek. i don't...
setmedic 1 month ago
We really need some different cliches. Unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster have had their day.
mikelheron20 1 month ago
On the whole God topic as I cannot prove nor disprove his/her existance I guess to say there is no God may be a bit presumptuous as no man alive today can say he knows all about the universe and all it's wonders! Still there is one fabulous rule that comes only from the bible and that is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" If every human practiced this philisophically and practically the world would be a better place!
TheMuskokaman 1 month ago
@TheMuskokaman You are wrong to say that ideal comes ONLY from the bible. Many versions of that have been expressed in Greek, Islam, Sikh, and other religions even before the bible was written. And either way, a witty statement endorsing morality is by no means a reason to believe that the Abrahamic God is real.
TheRawJS 1 month ago
@TheRawJS Bring the fucking evidence forth stupid or shut the fuck up. I never said I believe in the Abrahamic god if you would actually read the statement and understand it before shooting off your big fucking yap we could avoid these little arguments!
TheMuskokaman 1 month ago
@TheMuskokaman Evidence that it appears in virtually every world religion is easily accessible to you - Google it. Confucius said it five centuries before the time of Jesus. And even before that, the Egyptians had it written down. So once again, you are wrong to believe that it comes "only from the bible". And excuse me for assuming the you believe in the Abrahamic god. It's a logical deduction based off the fact that you believe the bible is worth listening to.
TheRawJS 1 month ago
@TheRawJS Man you can google any thing you want on the internet! Tell ya what snopes it! see for yourself. Moral compass issues (ethics) have been taught especially in the west (like it or not) from Christianity. That's why most people are so screwed up in the west. There should be a code of ethical behaviour for humankind regardless of religion otherwise anarchy will rule. This is a fundamental truth like it or not. I do not endorse the bible or the koran or any other ancient writings!
TheMuskokaman 1 month ago
@TheMuskokaman Ignoring your little outburst, it doesn't appear you ever conceded that the Bible was the first place to ever discuss the golden rule.
Confucius has a story that describes this rule nearly word for word in a document titled "Analects," written in 400 BC, more than 400 years before the Bible.
Even more impressive is the Sanskrit epic Mahabharata, over 900 years before the Bible. "One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self."
TheIncognitusMe 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheIncognitusMe OK Theincognitusme.... Yes you and RawJS were correct in your assertions of the origin of the Golden Rule. Now if your gratification from admittance of error from a percieved adversary is complete. I will continue with my musings if I may?
TheMuskokaman 1 month ago
@TheRawJS BTW Islam came after Christianity stupid as did Sikhism Learn some fucking history!
TheMuskokaman 1 month ago
Gotta run but thank for the humour KOICrowc!
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
LOL
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
Atheists will often say that the burden of proof to show that God exists is on the Christian. There's a beloved saying of criminolgists: "Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence". To rule out the existence of God, an atheist needs more than just the absence of evidence, he needs some positive evidence of absence. What is that positive evidence of absence? Curious...
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 we don't rule it out, we just say that it is unlikely enough to not take in to consideration all together. In other words, if you had a suspect with no evidence of him committing a crime, would you find him guilty?
quzishen 2 months ago
@quzishen We can now say that the universe had a beginining. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Therefore the universe had a cause. Something cannot come from nothing. If something can come into being from nothing, then it becomes inexplicable why just anything or everthing doesn't come from nothing. Common experience and scientific evidence confirm the truth of those premises. So saying that an intelligence cause is unlikley is foolishness.
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 i can't believe so few understand the big bang theory. The big bang theory doesn't say that something came from nothing, only that the universe at one time was much smaller in size and that it is expanding, if you go to any scientific video it'll say when electrons were able to spin when the 4 forces stabilized, etc. then they'll say, and that is the extent of our knowledge, meaning the big bang theory only goes so far. for you god to be the true god, the chances are almost 0.
quzishen 2 months ago
@quzishen The universe had a beginning.....
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 and you're claiming that on the bases of...?
quzishen 2 months ago
@quzishen Space, time, and the universe as we know it did have a beginning. It is the 'material' that makes up our universe that doesn't. That 'material' made up the singularity, which eventually led to the Big Bang.
Though nobody should confuse this for me saying the universe was ever created, or came from nothing.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
@KOICrowz To think that it would have a creator you would need evidence, and if there's none, i won't believe that a being created the universe, and saying that a creator created the universe is absurd. You said something cannot come from nothing, now that is not true, however, if there was no evidence of something coming from nothing, it is no more absurd than a creator. Now if we pop back into reality, something can come from nothing and most particles have been observed coming into existence.
quzishen 2 months ago
@quzishen I'm honestly shocked.
I literally said at the end of my comment that nobody should confuse my comment to mean that I think the universe was ever 'created'. So, if that wasn't clear enough..
I'm an atheist, and I know that the probability of a god existing is incredibly low. The universe as we know it was not created, but it does have a starting point.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
@KOICrowz Having a starting point is something i am not sure about. However, the laws of physics do break down in extreme situations, such as expected in the big bang theory.
quzishen 2 months ago
@quzishen How can you not be sure about it when the big bang theory itself says the universe has a starting point?
I don't think you understand what I'm saying? The universe, AS WE KNOW IT, has a starting point. I honestly don't see why you're throwing out the big bang theory, but disagreeing on.. well, the big bang part.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
@KOICrowz i see the parts where the laws of physics broke down, but i can't find any reason or evidence to believe that it was the starting point of the universe, or that there even is a start to the universe. There might be evidence that i haven't found but, i haven't found any yet.
quzishen 2 months ago
@quzishen Okay, this is just sad.
Stop throwing out the big bang, because it's clear you don't understand it at its most basic.
KOICrowz 1 month ago
@KOICrowz "The Universe continued to grow in size and fall in temperature, hence the typical energy of each particle was decreasing. Symmetry breaking phase transitions put the fundamental forces of physics and the parameters of elementary particles into their present form." found it on wikipedia and they referenced it to Kolb and Turner (1988), chapter 7, in mathematical formulas, the fundamental forces have been shown to breakdown, it was not a birth of the universe as much as a transition.
quzishen 1 month ago
@quzishen You desperately need help with reading comprehension, because I've been calling it a change, not a sudden appearance or creation.
So, for the last time, the universe AS WE KNOW IT, you know, with space and time and our laws, HAD A BEGINNING. As in, when expansion began, OUR UNIVERSE BEGAN. I'm not saying it came from nothing, I'm not saying it was created, I am saying that what makes up our universe changed into our universe during the big bang.
KOICrowz 1 month ago
@KOICrowz ...you mean to say that we agreed on this all along... okay then, have a good day. I still think that saying it had an beginning isn't very agreeable, but it is a transition, and we both know the facts, we just phase it differently.
quzishen 1 month ago
@quzishen You're taking the idea of a beginning the wrong way, though. Saying our universe has a beginning is sort of like saying a diamond ring has a beginning. The diamond and gold already exist, but them being changed into that exact form was the beginning of the ring.
KOICrowz 1 month ago
@KOICrowz Maybe I should stop taking physics and mathematics for a English class.
quzishen 1 month ago
@quzishen A deliberate abuse if science. The theories in question have to do with particles orginating as a fluctuation of energy contained in a vacuum. In physics the "vacuum" is a sea of flucuating energy governed by physical laws and having a physical structure. To tell people that such on such theories something comes from nothing is a distortion of those theories.
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 sorry should have used vacuum, not nothing.
quzishen 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 Saying 'the universe began to exist' is not equivalent to 'the universe was created'.
No credible scientist will say that the universe came from nothing, so drop that.
Saying an intelligent creator of the universe existing is unlikely is not foolish. Until such a claim can be reasonably demonstrated, or hell, anything supernatural or divine can be reasonably demonstrated, the likelihood of a god will remain at an unbelievably low percentage.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
I think the first premise that "whatever begins to exist has a cause" is virtually undenialble for any sincere seeker of truth. For something to come into being without any cause whatsoever would be to come into being from nothing.
No credible scientist will say that the universe came from nothing, but many have attempted to find a natural cause outside intelligence. Those same scientists likely have a problem with the Law of Uniformity. Many scientists have a philosophical bias.
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 The universe began to exist; what makes it up didn't.
Oh look, problem solved.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 What's the law of uniformity?
Is that like Ockham's razor, that it's unlikely our place in the universe is special etc.? (that's not a law, it's good advice when sorting probabilities)
You are dead right that it's not the general opinion that everything came from nothing these days, a multiverse is thought more probable, but why do you think intelligence, itself a thing, could predate every'thing'??
HeyHeyHarmonicaLuke 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' - You neglect to mention that people, at least in America, are not tried based on this. Attorney's do not tell jurors, "well look, they can't absolutely prove he didn't do it, so you should convict, because it's a possibility."
It also doesn't make it rational to believe a faith-based claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and until such evidence is presented, it is perfectly okay for me to call bullshit.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
@KOICrowz 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' You might want to bring that up with criminalogists. Apparently it is a common saying among them.
Even atheism has a faith element.
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 I don't need to bring it up with criminologists; you're the one who is using it incorrectly.
Atheism has no faith element, so don't even get started on that moronic lie.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
@KOICrowz "Atheism has no faith element"
Okay now your starting to make me laugh.....You are a comedian. Thanks LOL
Truenorthman100 2 months ago
@Truenorthman100 Please demonstrate where faith is involved in the stance of disbelief.
Atheism is not a belief without reason, atheism is not an assertion. You either don't know what faith is, or you don't know what atheism is.
KOICrowz 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
To claim life evolved is to demand a miracle. The simplest conceivable form of single-celled life should have at least 600 different protein molecules. The mathematical probability that even one typical protein could form by chance arrangements of amino acid sequences is essentially zero (a)—far less than 1 in 10^450. To appreciate the magnitude of 10^450, realize that the visible universe is about 10^28 inches in diameter.
j919or 2 months ago
Unicorns either are or are not flying out of my ass. 50-50 chance. #LOL
drche420 2 months ago
There's a big difference between a fact supported by rational evidence and a belief supported, by faith or words from the Bible, which can't be validated.
MrBiblecontradiction 3 months ago
wait till you get your GODWINK. you will know. in time.
grabba73 3 months ago
there atheists yet they look like christians...tehe
SlayerGod999 3 months ago
@SlayerGod999 Do all christians look alike?
MarcusEFN 3 months ago
@MarcusEFN idk man... just joking around.... tehe..:) c ya!!
SlayerGod999 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
God is Ancient from eternity. He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything and before anything living or dead.
“He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Hidden: and He has full knowledge of all things.” (Qur’an 57:3)
=> for more information type in google "thedeenshow"
akeello 4 months ago
first few moments of this video :D
WhyNotHateThemAll 4 months ago
read quran..
youjayification 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
God is a spirit, an immaterial conscious being. All things in the universe consists of matter and/or energy, so if God isn't matter, is energy by definition. Energy is the capacity to do work, is eternal, omnipresent, wasn't created and can't be destroyed, can create matter, was the only thing present before the BB, and the energy required to make the universe must had been powerful. All these match Biblical descriptions of God. He wants us to elevate our consciousness to the next level, is real
dejesusluisx 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
God is a spirit, an immaterial conscious being. All things in the universe consists of matter and/or energy, so if God isn't matter, is energy by definition. Energy is the capacity to do work, is eternal, omnipresent, wasn't created and can't be destroyed, can create matter, was the only thing present before the BB, and the energy required to make the universe must had been powerful. All these match Biblical descriptions of God. He wants us to elevate our consciousness to the next level, is real
dejesusluisx 5 months ago
The Lorax....
LOL!
EthanNin0 5 months ago
I know GOD is real because, when the bible was written there was no science like today, in the bible it talks about the vast number of stars, alignment of planets, the importance of blood... look at water, it has no taste, its clear, has no nutrition value, and yet, we can't live without it. way back when the Americas were founded, many tribes and such didn't have to grow food, everything they needed was there in front of them. GOD provided everything they needed, have fun in hell...
brennanjohnify 5 months ago
@brennanjohnify
I don't believe god is real because there is no science in the bible, we need water to exist because we evolved on a environment/planet with water (along with other things found in our environments), I have no idea why god would provide food to heathen Native Americans who didn't believe in him, and I have no idea why god is now allowing millions to die like flies right now with no food "right in front of them".
greyeyed123 5 months ago
@brennanjohnify In the beginning God created the Heavens, Earth, fish, animals, and man. God created everything to perfection as God is Himself perfect. God gave Adam "the first man" everything he needed to survive. Eve "the first female" is created for Adam by God. Satin tempts Eve and Eve sucumbs to sin and Adam does as well by disobeying God. Here is where humanity left the perfection of God. God kicked them out of paradise and here is where life's sufferings began.
thebestninja 5 months ago
@thebestninja This is basic myth making. Moreover, you said nothing about postlapsarian man. You said that when Native Americans came to the Americas, there was food for them. Are you saying Native Americans came to America in a prelapsarian state? If so, then there were humans that were not descendants of Adam, but somehow made it to the Americas before the fall of man, and also somehow were helped by god with food despite never believing in him. Your story logic doesn't work.
greyeyed123 5 months ago
@greyeyed123 But to have something finite that means we need some infinite to create it. So, how do you explain how water came to existence?
cheer10603 5 months ago
@cheer10603 Finite things cannot come from infinite things, logically, any more than imperfect things can "come from" perfect things. Water came into existence the same way all matter did.
If you are going to propose that something exists and is infinite, then EVERYTHING that exists is both that "something" and infinite. Observation of reality demonstrates that this is false.
greyeyed123 5 months ago
@greyeyed123 So, how did all matter come into existence? Also, what is the conclusion that you get when you observe reality?
cheer10603 5 months ago
@cheer10603 You need to read a science book. This information is widely available. (All matter was forged in stars.)
When I observe reality, I see finite things that exist. These finite things are not infinite, and they are not god. If god existed and was infinite, then ALL the things I observe would have to be both god and infinite.
greyeyed123 5 months ago
@greyeyed123 ~I am aware of what is in the science book. I just don't really view all of it as a proven fact and that it happened.
~Also, I didn't say the finite things were infinite. I meant to say that in order for them to exist, there has to be something infinite out there that all matter came from.
cheer10603 4 months ago
@cheer10603 There are no "proven facts" in science.
And I KNOW you said finite things came from infinite things. My point is that THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.
Cut infinity in half. What do you have? Infinity. Cut it into a million pieces. Take one of those million pieces, and what do you have? Infinity. You can't get to "finite".
Infinity is not a "real" thing, it is a concept. Finite things cannot come from infinite things, as there are no such thing as infinite "things".
greyeyed123 4 months ago
@greyeyed123 But, you said that all matter was forged in stars earlier. But, that still doesn't answer my question of where matter comes from. Where did the stars come from? There had to be something in existence that made the stars.
You and I. We are both finite because from an atheist perspective we don't live eternally. We live and we die....nothing special. We are a product of evolution and cells and have no purpose but to advance society.
cheer10603 4 months ago
@cheer10603 "But, you said that all matter was forged in stars earlier. But, that still doesn't answer my question of where matter comes from."
Actually, IT DOES. It comes FROM STARS.
Note: there is no "atheist perspective". If you think matter comes from your god, YOU HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT. I don't have to do anything. All the evidence thus far suggests matter is natural, like everything else in the natural world.
No one is suggesting existence itself started with the Big Bang.
greyeyed123 4 months ago
@greyeyed123 lol saying the material originates in stars is not the same as saying matter "comes from" stars. it's not even close. neither does the "evidence", whatever that might mean (I presume you mean the field of science), yet provide any reasonable speculation, let alone verifiable framework, as to how it might have arisen. as to it being "natural", the mind boggles.
a simple, i don't know and neither do you, would suffice, and be a far truer reflection of affairs.
thespacialone 4 months ago
@thespacialone Let me ask you this. Where does existence (not "the universe") come from?
If it comes from god, then god didn't exist a prior because if he did, then existence didn't "come from" him.
If it came from nothing, then you have existence coming from nonexistence--a contradiction.
If existence only comes from existence, you have no problem--existence in some form simply IS, and there was never a condition outside space-time in which nonexistence was a state.
greyeyed123 4 months ago
@greyeyed123 I would be fairly sure what we might term the existential realm was, pretty much by definition, without beginning or end. I perceive things to exist. Why do I think that should change or be capable of change? Sure things change within it, and we are wired to extrapolate patterns from what we observe, but all I can know is that "it" is. Whatever I might think of as God has only partial bearing on / meaning for existence. How do you see it?
thespacialone 4 months ago
@thespacialone "Whatever I might think of as God has only partial bearing on / meaning for existence. How do you see it?"
I see it that your god idea can have NO bearing on existence as existence. To suggest god created existence is to say existence didn't exist before existence, which would be god didn't exist.
Exactly the kind of problem you would expect if a god didn't exist, and existence simply was existence. Asking where X came from is nonsensical in this context.
greyeyed123 4 months ago
@thespacialone It is close, as it is exactly where matter comes from. If you want to ask where stars come from, that's a different question. (You are aware that we can "create" matter in the lab under similar conditions found in the sun? They can even make gold in this way--which would make the alchemists of old happy...except for the fact that it costs more energy to make the gold than the gold is worth.)
We DO know where matter comes from. Do a little reading. You are star stuff.
greyeyed123 4 months ago
@greyeyed123 You partially refute that statement by citing those experiments. The "matter" there come from a guy in a white coat or from "star". It is also allegorical. Maybe "star" is the particle physicist in the lab; maybe some other cause or thing predates it.
You come from your folks or from star? Maybe your material self "originated" in the stars, but in a real sense you "came from" your progenitors. "Comes from" implies narrative, one your reductio ad absurdem stance cannot deliver.
thespacialone 4 months ago
@thespacialone If you accept that existence as such simply IS, as you seem to do, then why are you asking where things come from?
I think you mean anecdotal, not "allegorical". And no, it's not anecdotal, as it was actually done (from base metals), and is reproducible, falsifiable, predictive, and observable.
"Come from" has no meaning at all if you accept that existence simply IS, as you already said you accept. I don't understand your point at all. (You do accept chemistry, right?)
greyeyed123 4 months ago
@greyeyed123 I can't spell adsurdum
thespacialone 4 months ago
@cheer10603 did you see this? i spent two years trying to get atheists to refute any of it, but to no avail. what a shame that often well-meaning and otherwise intelligent people have such a blindspot when it comes to defending the indefensible.
does god exist? well, that only the powerful have secrets goes, for me, at least some way to substantiating the notion.
/watch?v=E3GNbUyDY74
thespacialone 4 months ago
@greyeyed123
You have just become the most ignorant person I am aware of. A "fact" is merely a verifiable observation. If I observe that my pen falls every time I drop it, and that this experiment can be verified by anyone, then gravity is a fact. As it turns out, there are many many facts. Get used to it.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 Uh...are you talking to me? I think you responded to the wrong person.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
Unless you accidently forgot to put quotations around the first sentence of your comment, I've got the right person.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 There are many more than one comment. Which sentence and comment are you referring to? I see none that connect to what you were saying about facts, or at least, would be contrary to what you've said. I would agree with everything you said about facts, and all my posts align with that definition of fact.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
Your comment read "There are no proven facts in science", which is just wrong. Terribly so.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 Ah. The problem here is "proven", as the word carries with it an absolute conclusion. There are no absolute conclusions in science. Science operates in the realm of evidence, which is always contingent on new evidence or new observations.
If science "proved facts", then new evidence or observations could not contradict those "proven facts". Clearly that is absurd, as the driving engine of scientific discovery IS new evidence and new observations, never "proven", never absolute.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
You are misusing the word "proven". Since a fact is merely a verifiable observation, it can be a true fact or a false fact. If I claim that your shirt is yellow and we both look to see it is blue, then my claim is an untrue fact. If I claim something that cannot be verified or tested, then it is not a fact by definition. "Proven" means a claim has been verified as a true fact, it has nothing to do with absolute certainty.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 ""Proven" means a claim has been verified as a true fact, it has nothing to do with absolute certainty."
You are wrong. Do some reading. I left a link on your channel last night.
"Proof" is a mathematical concept. It has nothing to do with demonstrating things in reality. The only way we demonstrate things in reality is with evidence, and evidence is always contingent on new evidence and new observations.
When people say something is "proven", then mean it is absolutely true.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
I'm an engineer. I know what proof means. If you can't admit you're wrong, don't try to conversate with someone.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 If you want to redefine "proof" to not be mathematical, and say that something can be proven true and still be false, fine. But what most people mean when they say something is "proven true" is that there will never be any evidence in the future contradicting its "truth"--which, by definition, means it is absolute.
Science doesn't work in absolutes, and can never say "x is absolutely true". All it can ever say is nothing has yet demonstrated it false.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
You are being dishonest. We both know that a mathematical proof is just one use of the word proof. If somehow you didn't know, please don't take my word for it. Look it up. Again, a fact is not necessarily true. A fact only needs to be verifiable. Therefore, a false fact would prove a claim false and a true fact would prove a claim true. However, if the claim is untestable, then it cannot be a fact at all. At least try to be honest with me.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 You need to be honest with yourself. When people say something is "proven true", does that mean they think it could be false? Of course not.
When you use the word "prove", you suggest that science has stopped inquiry on a specific question. But science NEVER stops inquiry. It is ALWAYS dependent on new evidence and new observations, and you can't know what those could be a priori, so suggesting it is "proven true" is anathema to science AS science.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@drche420 "If you can't admit you're wrong, don't try to conversate with someone. "
Also, "conversate" is not a word. And you dangled a preposition when you said, "You have just become the most ignorant person I am aware of." It should be, "You have just become the most ignorant person of whom I am aware."
We're on the same side, dude. If you try to say science "proves" things, theists are going to hit you over the head for making the same kind of arguments they make--and they'll be right.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
Let me get this straight... You think we're on the "same side", yet you don't think science can prove things. Then when you realize you're wrong you attack my spelling and grammar? Sad.
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 Good grief. Even Matt Dillahunty has explained the difference between proof and evidence. I've sent you two links explaining the difference in science. I've explained it here.
If you REALLY see the word "proof" as a synonym for "evidence", why are you arguing with me? We agree in regard to reality. The only thing we disagree about is what people mean when they say something is proven.
If you REALLY think that people think that something can be false when "proven true", fine.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
@greyeyed123
Matt also explained the difference between a colloquial belief and absolute certainty. Absolute certainty is useless. When someone uses the word "proof", they are not talking in absolutes. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
drche420 3 months ago
@drche420 "When someone uses the word "proof", they are not talking in absolutes. Why is this so hard for you to understand?"
Because you are misunderstanding how language works. When YOU say the word "proof", you may simply mean evidence. Most people do not mean "evidence", they mean absolute certainty when they say "proof".
This is why Matt explained why he doesn't use the word "proof" for scientific evidence, because "proof" is mathematical, not scientific.
greyeyed123 3 months ago
Comment removed
drche420 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@brennanjohnify
I don't believe god is real because there is no science in the bible, we need water to exist because we evolved on a environment/planet with water (along with other things found in our environments), I have no idea why god would provide food to heathen Native Americans who didn't believe in him, and I have no idea why god is now allowing millions to die like flies right now with no food "right in front of them".
greyeyed123 5 months ago
@brennanjohnify You're kidding right? O.o
stoicfan 5 months ago
@stoicfan no not at all, jesus is my savior, i praise GOD, because i know he's real
brennanjohnify 5 months ago
@brennanjohnify How?
stoicfan 5 months ago
@stoicfan because this world didn't just happen
brennanjohnify 5 months ago
@brennanjohnify So you can't really show any evidence. Just using the old Christian "well look around you!" response which holds no validity since you can't prove a god.
By the way since God created everything who created God and the one before Gods father and so forth.
stoicfan 5 months ago
God always was and will be that is our faith.
iwork4themightyone 5 months ago
@iwork4themightyone Well I know it's your faith, it's just faith isn't evidence. And I need evidence to live a life with reason and intelligence and happiness cause I can prove what I see and comprehend. Not just a comforting best friend that I can't see.
stoicfan 5 months ago
@stoicfan What evidence do you have from science that the world evolved in the first place? Just cause we have faith that God exists doesnt mean we dont have proof or evidence that he does. The cosmological argument is one of them, an object cannot come from nothing. So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God. Christians just have faith that God is infinite. You do not need faith you just need evidence that their is a higher being in the world.
jrn987 5 months ago
@jrn987 You just kind of messed yourself up by saying "an object cannot come from nothing. So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God." So something was already here to create God?....interesting. Who created the thing that created God and so on. And yes you do need evidence for a higher power which can't be done with an old book that has fairy tales, or at least has shown any good evidence for a Christian god. And there's more gods then yours. Yours may be wrong.
stoicfan 5 months ago
@stoicfan How did i mess myself up by saying "an object cannot come from nothing. So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God" ? Please explain that to me. I said God was infinite so obviously you read it wrong or you dont know what infinite means. I never said something created God, he was always there and always will be there. It is not a book of fairytales... Fairytales are like Cinderella and Snow White not stories you can find in a old history book,
jrn987 5 months ago
@jrn987 Cinderella and Snow White aren't thousands of years old like the Bible. We didn't have the science or knowledge we have now. And I know what infinite means. I just don't believe in it, maybe I should state that first. And you said "someone" not infinity/something for the creation of God, that confused me. So infinity has a brain and decided to make God? And I want to know what do you believe of other cultures before Christianity and their Gods. (Christians stole a lot from the Egyptians)
stoicfan 5 months ago
@stoicfan Yeah I know they are not thousands of years old and that we have knowledge and science they didn't have back then. But theres not proof either of evolution or the Big Bang. But yet we have the Bible and stories and people are listed in old historical records from it. When i said someone i meant God. "So obviously someone had to be there to create the world and that is God" I meant that God was there to create the world not that something infinite before him had created him.
jrn987 5 months ago
@jrn987 So you believe in stories about talking snakes and Noahs Ark? makes me want to end this pointless debate we've been having for the last couple days even more. Every culture has stories and fairy tales since the beginning. Doesn't mean their true but they're STORIES like Harry Potter. We know WW2 cause there's photos and videos. But we don't have proof a man that rose from the dead and walked on water XD Still haven't answered about the cultures thousands of years before Christianity...
stoicfan 5 months ago
@stoicfan So what i believe in that? You keep saying i dont have proof yet you havent shown or told me any proof that you have that evolution is real or that the Big Bang really happened
jrn987 5 months ago
@jrn987 We never claim to. We're asking for proof, we have doubt, you preach certainty. Yet there's no proof, so we continue to doubt. It's really quite simple. And even some Christian Scientists believe in evolution. Here's an entire Christian site dedicated to the proof of evolution, and they do it nicely. Though I don't believe in the religion, the people on the site admit that evolution can't be denied and that earth wasn't created 6000 years ago in 7 days, go to it proof-of-evolution. com
stoicfan 5 months ago
@jrn987 I don´t believe that people like you are still around, go read a decent science book for god´s sake.
yatter1 5 months ago
@brennanjohnify
You "know" that "god" is real because "this world didn't just happen" ?
Wow.
Praise be to the All Might Be Magic Man.
tellnet 5 months ago
@tellnet well the world had to come from something. where did all the matter in the universe come from? matter is finite, and cannot create iteself. Therefore, something infinite, not bound by time or space, aka God, had to bring all finite matter into existence.
Stryker523 5 months ago
@Stryker523
Yeah......
Right........
And where, pray tell did this "godfella" emanate from ?
tellnet 5 months ago
@tellnet Well he is infinite, that is, not bound by time and space. He is not made of finite matter, and this comes through faith
Stryker523 4 months ago
@Stryker523
Yeah....
Right ....
Absolutely WRONG actually ....
You claim (on faith alone - without evidence) that your godfella just is and always was - that is childish nonsense of the lowest order - it is an excuse for your ignorance.
There is no shame in ignorance:
Of all things some are ignorant.
Of some things all are ignorant.
Excusing your ignorance with makey uppy bullshit is not ignorance.
It is stupidity.
tellnet 4 months ago
@Stryker523
He? You believe in a fantasy. Do you still believe in Santa Claus as well or have you grown out of that?
TheodorePike 4 months ago
@TheodorePike : Surely the Toothy Fairy exists.
pmoyer50 4 months ago
@pmoyer50
Well we at least have some evidence he might do, certainly more than a God, we know that money appears under the pillow from somewhere. God on the other hand decides to remain hidden. Maybe drunk in a bar with some hooker perhaps. I'd have more respect for him if he was.
TheodorePike 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Stryker523
Describing god is like describing Big Foot. You can't talk about the family structure of the Big Foot creature until you can prove Big Foot exists. You can't explain the aerodynamics of a Griffin's wings until you've proven a Griffin exists. See where I'm going with this?
"Well he is infinite, that is, not bound by time and space. He is not made of finite matter"
- You're just making stuff up.
drche420 3 months ago
@brennanjohnify
Let's play by your rules for a moment and think about how lopsided your statement is. "Back then" you died of horrible diseases, wild beasts, other people, floods, tornados, hurricanes, extreme heat, extreme cold, sea creatures, infections, gravity and on & on
The world was hardly this paradise, in fact, more was put there to kill you then to help you live.
Also, every living thing on the planet shares a need for water. Plants, Animals, People. That's evidence of evolution.
TheWonderDoc 5 months ago
put the men in "aah - men" lol
mahmoudyzadeh 5 months ago
I thought the Ted Haggard song was hilarious, and I'm a Christian.
ProtestantsRUs 5 months ago
@ProtestantsRUs Isn't it though. And isn't it great that certain things can bring us all together regardless of belief? ;)
ToiletBomb 5 months ago
Laugh Out Loud @ the pissing contest in this comment section?
HolyCity2012 5 months ago
@fred10538 Yes, that is a valid point, and hence that is why I included several poisons. Perhaps it will be better if I said multiple people drinking those multiple poisons and moving multiple mountains?
You still have the possibility of aliens messing with us, but that is there for almost everything.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 That is how the scientific method works. A hypothesis makes various claims. These claims are then tested and if these test are passed, it can become a theory.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 Yes, I understand that throughout history there has not been a single piece of evidence for God, however that alone does not mean there will not be any (the fact that his definition is contradictory and thus impossible to fulfil is).
However regardless, if something makes a claim, and that claim is tested and found to be true, that is evidence (potentially very minor evidence) of that something.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 Would you also say that gravity is really just aliens manipulating objects with advanced technology?
There is a point where the alternative explanation gets just as (if not more) unfounded and insane.
Yes I understand there are other explanations, however that doesn't mean it doesn't count as evidence for any of them. Something can be evidence for 2 contradictory things, other evidence is then used to determine which is true.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 But there would be that. It would be someone telling the mountain to move (who claims to be a follower of said God, and who is doing it in the name of God), and then the mountain moving, straight after. What would you accept as a clear link between the mountain moving and a god?
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 There was also the part about moving a mountain by telling it to move. Not as an Earthquake or it falling, but having it actually move, can you think of any way that could happen?
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 Provide any reason that would prevent thionyl chloride, concentrated hydrochloric acid, concentrated hydrofluoric acid (one of the deadliest things I know), concentrated sodium hydroxide and hydrogen cyanide (taken at different times so one wont cancel the other) killing someone.
I am very smart. Yes there can be lots of reasons, however they will not work on everything. I do know what evidence is, and I do think critically.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 And I would think them being able to drink so many different lethal things, and not being hurt by it would constitute evidence. I still wouldn't worship God, I would just believe he exists. But that will never happen.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 I know, however it is somewhat smart by the church, convince everyone in the world/nation to give us 10% of their wealth, and God will show himself. Who really, cares, they will rich beyond belief, especially if the church was a single entity.
However I would much prefer a different test. Get a Christian to move a mountain, and drink concentrated: HCl, HF, NaOH, Thionyl Chloride, HCN, and so on, and get bitten by a fierce snake (aka inland taipan). If they live, I will believe.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 Essentially it requires everyone on Earth to give 10% of their wealth to the church, then God will give us so much stuff there isn't enough room to store it.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@fred10538 Read Malachi 3:8-10 ...the test is laid out in simple terms.
freemanalan1 5 months ago
"God gives you a choice and its a simple one. Its Gods way of culling out the infected"
But if god created us, then is he not responsible for the infection you speak of? Also, if god has a 'plan', he already aware of the outcome of who will be going to heaven or hell. Which negates the notion that it is a choice.
Diomedes01 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Diomedes01 Just because God knows the outcome of who goes to heaven or hell, doesn't mean He made the choice for us.
itskendra100 5 months ago
@fred10538 A few words written here will prove NOTHING. Do the test or explain your reluctance to prove the point.
freemanalan1 6 months ago
All these guys talk about is unicorns, santa claus, and leprechauns. I just watched a video of the guy on the right is dressed like a woman. This religion of theirs causes people to struggle with their gender. Atheism = INSANITY
virtualguitarist 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@virtualguitarist
"This religion of theirs causes people to struggle with their gender. Atheism = INSANITY"
You know you've lost the argument when you have to resort to posting rubbish like this.
'Religon of Theirs' - LOL - 14.7% of the World's population are Atheists.
Uberlaser 6 months ago
@virtualguitarist What religion would that be?
I thought they were atheists?
Atheism is not a religion, it is the absence of religion.
Also, atheism is perfectly sane.
blackjeffrey1 6 months ago
@blackjeffrey1 A fool says there is no God.
virtualguitarist 6 months ago
@virtualguitarist No. Use the entire verse please.
"A fool says in his heart there is no god" A wise man will say it out loud.
A fool will say out loud "there is a god"
I do not say there is no god, I say there most likely is no god. I also say the god of the Bible does not exist.
What you have quoted is a defence mechanism, where you can dismiss others as fools, for simply not believing. However that is just an ad hominem attack and will never work in a proper debate.
How is it insanity?
blackjeffrey1 6 months ago
@blackjeffrey1 You can deny the redemptive work of Christ on the cross all you want, but it don't change reality. Jesus is coming back and you will be without excuse. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
virtualguitarist 6 months ago
@virtualguitarist You can't really use the bible to prove anything... Jesus was supposed to come back in the year 1000 and then on the year 2000 and then some people said some priest didnt count the days right and the years were a bit late, so it was 2004... Saying the "work" of christ is a reality without knowing.. doesn't make it true nor real. The bible isn't a good source for anything couz can't cpick and choose what is correct and what isn't . It's either all true or non of it is.
RaitoDenki 6 months ago
@virtualguitarist Plus if your god will send me to ETERNAL suffering for simply not believing than he's evil, and you're an imoral person for being in favor of such a god. Yes, christians are imoral. A person from another religion could make the exact same claim you did , just replace "Christ" with their deity on your comment. doesn't make their religion reality either.
RaitoDenki 6 months ago
@virtualguitarist I understand that you may be scared shitless of death, and believing in after life may be a relief for you. I'm scared alot, that I may be wrong... maybe god does exist... but I have principles, and I won't believe in a god or whatever simply because i'm scared. I refuse to use fear as a reason to belief
RaitoDenki 6 months ago
@RaitoDenki Why would i be scared of death? We Christians believe in life. God does not send people to hell for not believing, people send them selves by choice. Hell is the default position for the non believer. God gives you a choice and its a simple one. Its Gods way of culling out the infected.
virtualguitarist 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist you're idiotic. he didnt give me any choice. because i dont believe in him... i dont believe he exists. HE WILL send me to hell if he does exist, because i don't believe.your god SENDS atheists to hell, it says so in the bible, the one book you believe in. you christians are imoral worshiping such deity, and sometimes you even feel good knowing that some innocent people are suffering in hell, for something like belief.
RaitoDenki 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist did he also give a choice to the children born in a muslim country? where they teach them their own religion and not christianity? do they deserve to burn forever because they were born in the wrong place? USE UR BRAIN its there to be used.
RaitoDenki 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist btw if you chose the wrong god you're going to some other religion's hell.
RaitoDenki 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist No. If your God exists, he sends people to hell for not believing in him or not worshipping him. God chooses where to send people, just because he defaults to sending people to hell, does not mean he is not choosing that. He chose it once, and stuck with it. If God exists, he chooses where people go. If I go to hell, that will be his choice, not mine.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist
Holy sheeite, you're a mighty man...
Such an eloquent and comprehensive display of knowledge and information about an indisputably as yet non-existential entity, and all without the benefit of either observance or evidence.
Astounding.
Astonishing.
Amazing.
tellnet 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist Quoting Bible wont really help you. It will not change reality either, neither will you asserting it to be true. Reality is that the Bible is fiction, Jesus is imaginary.
Also, what redemptive work? All Jesus dying on the cross serves as, is propaganda.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago
@virtualguitarist Also, the end times have been "soon" for around 2000 years, with an Earth which is only a few thousand years old. Jesus is way overdue, guess why, he isn't coming back, as he was never here.
blackjeffrey1 5 months ago