Ed Gomes Questioning Brian Brown on Faith and Gay Marriage

[j4unumber1]

Of course, what I am wondering is a rational basis on why one's religious beliefs about a particular issue be made policy.

What Brian said here is clear enough about his right to belief what he wants and to call his beliefs "rational" for whatever justification. However, why should one's beliefs be made policy though?

[j4unumber1]

If gay people are discriminated against supposedly because of action than yeah that's discrimination.  In some states, gay people may be fired, not for sexual activities outside of work, but because they are perceived as gay by their employers. Obviously, this is one example of legal discrimination gay people may experience. Ok Brian? :-)

[steerpike66]

Brian Brown can't choose to be straight because anyone with a functioning gaydar could tell he is a CLOSET-CASE.

He REEKS of self-loathing homosexuality. That boy is going to be caught in a public bathroom one of these days, mark my words.

[Walbrook48]

Brian Brown could "choose" not to be straight. too.

[DisturbedInOhio]

Not everyone believes in a god, and therefore a person who does believe should not be able to push their views on to others. Its the same a muslim, jehovah witness and what not pushing their beliefs onto a christian. How would that fly? If you do not want views, culture, or lifestyles pushed "down your throat", then you inturn must not do it to others. Many sinful acts are committed daily by everyone, why not the banning of those "sins". Either go all the way with it, or shut up. Is god a hater?

[NettaAndCasper]

What about the part of the bible that says ur not supposed to wear more than one type of fabric at a time or cut your hair? What about not sleeping in the bed withur wife when she bleeds? youre a hypocrite n ur ignorant. stop taking expurts from the bible and take it all into account if u want to live by it. And whatever happened to separation of church and state? ur a hater and u wil not win. just like the rednecks with their rebel flags didnt win. The greatest commandment is LOVE idiot

[anonymousabcd1]

Excellent job Brian Brown! I don't think Ed Gomes even understood what he was was asking. You made perfect sense.

[laylausauk]

This guy is nuts, and if I was born without a left hand, would that be a reason to deny me a legal exsistance?

Please, Gay people are born that way,,, as Brian Brown was born ignorant.

[steerpike66]

@laylausauk.....and gay. Brian's wife would be worried if she knew why he closes his eyes when they're making love.

[scotplaya]

My communion classes never mentioned to banish the thought of gay marriages. Maybe because it was a small church. Not some mega church funded by conservative political agendas.

[anjela1981]

If our own creator does not see gender ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:28) and we are to daily seek him and align our thoughts with his, I think we should start working on what he does see (and require us to) LOVE!

[subuey]

I just looked through the entire section and didn't see one reference to anything done by "Nicholas Groth". Assuming he did such a study though, I wouldn't be surprised if when he saw that 30% of molestations were homosexual in nature, he would ignore the fact that since there are some 1.3% of 'gays' in the population, they would be disproportionately much more apt to commit child molestation.

[dirkgent]

It's more than 4% of the population actually. As for the molestatkion "fact," that probably meant men molesting boys, not gay men molesting kids. Most molestations, including those of young boys by older men, are perpetrated by straight men.

[subuey]

and yes, from pressure coming from your mental health associations, as well as all the green gays get form the government for their "projects", the CDC most certainly has a reason to be pro-gay.

[subuey]

Don't count on it. It was actually the American College of Pediatricians, not the American Academy. Read "Getting It Straight: What the Research Shows about Homosexuality". It's a handbook filled with references to published studies, hardly propoganda. Same with FRI.

[subuey]

It's just a body of evidence done on both side of the issue. Some organizations that compile it all are the Family Research Institute, Family Research Council (see "Getting It Straight, What the Research Shows about Homosexuality"), American Academy of Pediatricians, and though they have a pro-gay spin, the CDC whenever you can find the raw statistics.

[subuey]

Not at all! You most certainly can. I can ram health and behavioral statistics through the screen at you, but when it comes down to it it's just a moral choice you have to make, just like with any addiction. Sexuality is flexible, not immutable, and the homosexual is a flex that's just not healthy.

[subuey]

No, actually you'd have to build up empirical research to show that heterosexuals typically are not monogomous, rather far from it, averaging some 20 partners a year, like a certain community we know.

[subuey]

Infant organization? We're talking some 85 organizations here from accross the country who crafted the platform.

[subuey]

ha, copying from 'Box Turtle Bulliten', are we. Everything people are complaining about was noted in his report. That's what science is, work with the data you have while noting any possible variables. The records of the deaths of married gays in Europe show they dies much earlier.

[subuey]

and because it's a a public health issue letting people have it unlimited and not in a committed relationship. and hey, it not my problem the gays in accepting societies have the same helath problems as gays here in the U.S.

[subuey]

Not at all, the stage was set with that platform (1972). The goals they set were enough to take up a lifetime, and they've been moving down the list. (legalization of sodomoy, non-dicrimination, civil unions) Now it's just a matter of time before they desensitize our society into accepting the last two (and I see legalizing prostitution already in the works, a federal goal...)

[subuey]

the last two being abolishing ages of consent and unlimited partners in a uniont...

[BeatBuddy]

I have spent time all over Scandinavia and the impression I got was that homosexuality is a non-issue. We were strolling through the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen and witnessed two gay male couples holding hands. Nobody was phased except two elderly women, and they were from Boston.

[subuey]

I read the whole document. You look it up.

[subuey]

1972 gay rights platform, the COC (albeit in Europe), NAMBLA, etc., and in D.C. the laws have been flexed (3 years older rule). So far they've only chipped away by giving looholes, not necessarily lowering it. Thank goodness no one is a 'legitimate position' to advocate such a thing, yet, unless they just havn't 'come out' yet.

[subuey]

No, he used that portion of his study to show that governments were intentional exagerating how many of you there are by ignoring the highest age bracket.

He based the 'die early' claim by the records of married gays who had died and at what age compared to the general populace.

[subuey]

That's because societal expectations have risen, children need more time to mature to meet the demands of society.

Now, thanks to your activists, these laws are beginning to be curbed (not to mention giving abominable practices equal protection.)

[subuey]

CONCLUSION: We demonstrated a higher prevalence of BV, hepatitis C, and HIV risk behaviours in WSW compared with controls. A similar prevalence of cervical cytology abnormalities was found in both groups. Measures are required to improve our understanding of STI/HIV transmission dynamics in WSW, to facilitate better health service provision and targeted education initiatives.

[BeatBuddy]

I told you before, "statistics" are not a sound argument. The collective prejudice of society can create circumstances in which any given minority develops certain characteristics. The fact that the prison population is disproportionately much higher among African-Americans is not an argument against being black. Why can't that simple point get through to you?

[subuey]

I'm still amazed that you're trying to counter government records of married gays vs. married hets. in accepting (non-descriminatory) societies in Europe.

[BeatBuddy]

No, I countering the distortions and the citing out of contexts by Christian ministries.

[Xpistos2007]

The unnaturalness of homosexual acts is evidenced by the very nature of the human body and its various organs and systems. Clearly, in males, the digestive system at either orifice is not where nature intended the male gamete to be deposited. Likewise in females, the receptivity of the female genitalia is evolved to accommodate the penis. There is clearly no evolutionary advantage to the species for the conjugation of the orifices of digestion and elimination with the reproductive organs.

[BeatBuddy]

What has been discovered in studying animal life is that there is a natural diversity within species. It has also been noted that your biology does not necessarily determine your orientation.

What is unnatural is what is altered by man. In homosexuality there is no such alteration. The left-hander (myself), the dwarf, the midget, the redhead, the hermaphodite is no less natural than the majority.

[Xpistos2007]

You say that because something IS, it is natural. No so. The natural can be seen clearly. There are some conditions which are abberations, departures from the norm, dead ends. When I spoke about the unnaturalness of homosexuality I didn't mention disease transmission. I emphasized the futility, according to nature, of conjoining digestive and reproductive functions.

[BeatBuddy]

Whether something is an aberration or not does not indicate unnaturalness. Neither is a departure from the norm necessarily a misfortune. Further, being homosexual does not preclude an absence of desire to reproduce. The vast majority of heterosexual encounters are not geared to reproduce, and nobody cares whether they're aberrant or unnatural. You are one of the specious negators of homosexuality.

[BeatBuddy]

Brian Brown doesn't understand the difference between custom/tradition and rational thought. He speaks as if they're one and the same. Plus, his stance rests on Church "teachings", which are definately not rational.

[subuey]

"My criticism of the gay rights movement is that it isn't asking for civil rights, it is asking for a recognition and acceptance of an alternative life style which I do not believe society can condone, nor can I." - Ronald Reagan

[BeatBuddy]

The singular phrase, lifestyle, is based on stereotypic thinking. Gay rights gain momentum in proportion to how enlightened public opinion is. Society can indeed condone homosexuality because all of the attitudes against it are based on myths.  These myths are being blown sky high.

[subuey]

Myths? There are many things the general public doesn't know about the gay movement or their community, it's in essence a public health issue, and their movement is looking to destroy the institution of the family by aiming at lowering ages of consent and allowing unlimited partners in a 'union' -- 1972 gay rights platform national coalition of gay organizations

[BeatBuddy]

Homosexuality is a public health issue? In what sense? Homosexuals engage in the same sexual activities as heterosexuals. If it was really a public health issue, the American Medical Association and the National Institute of Health would have picked up on it. Instead, they support gay adoption and gay marriage. The real health issue is the low self-esteem that many gay people suffer due to the social stigma. The consequences of the stigma are used it to justify an anti-gay stance.

[subuey]

Homosexuals practice devious relationships, and as such they rely on devious activity, namely, sodomoy. Almost all gays practice this unsanitary practice, as oppoed to a minority of hets.

[BeatBuddy]

It doesn't matter what the statistics are. Our system of government is structured to protect the rights of INDIVIDUALS. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that rights are protected depending on the kind of sex you like to have. How do you know almost all gays practice sodomy? I have known a number of gays who don't dig it. And there is nothing devious about this particular act. The claim makes no sense.

[subuey]

well, sodomoy used to be illegal regardless until gay activists came along...

besides, men and women were created (or, would you rather, 'evolved') in such a way to allow reproduction between a man and a woman. Gays can't do this, so they resort to unsanitary behavior.

[BeatBuddy]

The criminalizing of sodomy is incompatible with the principles of the Bill of Rights.  Why should the state interfere with the intimate relations of two adults? Should the state penalize you for the kind of sex you enjoy? Who is the government to decide for individuals what course of satisfaction you can take?

[subuey]

Sodomy is a public health issue, and as such the public has to pay for it with their tax-dollars.

[BeatBuddy]

Again, you are blind to the dimensions that involve relationships, love, and commitment. Ask yourself why people need companionship with that special person. When you see a heterosexual couple, do you see the wife as a cocksucker and the husband as a cuntlapper? This is how you see gay people. Limiting your view to this dimension denotes a closed and narrow mind.

[subuey]

Assuming that's how I see gay people, well, would it be wrong? No, it wouldn't be, and statistics prove it.

[BeatBuddy]

Your statistics are manipulated. There is a lot of material on how statistics are distorted. For example, Cameron states that the average gay man has a life span of 40. Focus on the Family has adopted these stats. This average was tabulated from the gathering of obituary columns and from the AIDS ward of a San Francisco hospital. Even if demographics are accurate, you still have to take into account the conditions that make it so.

[subuey]

complaints, complaints, show your own statistics and put up. ;) Government statistics show that gays in accepting societies in some countries there die arouround 20 years younger.

[BeatBuddy]

Wrong. Studies show that gays who affirm their sexualities typically live more healthy lives, with a greater sense of wholeness and integrity than those who reject it. This is not merely a matter of consulting the subjective preferences of gays but of looking at how their lives go by.

[subuey]

and by the way, those who 'accept their "homosexuality"' are the ones who help make up 67% of AIDS MSM cases, syphillis, ghonnorhea, hepatitis A, etc., herps, recent outbreaks of LVG, chlamydia, bowl disease, etc. etc. etc.

[subuey]

**67% AIDS cases**

[BeatBuddy]

A statistic was announced at the World Health Organization in Florence, Italy, that 95% of the world's AIDS cases are heterosexually transmitted. It's growing fastest in southern Africa and Asia, where it's not thought of as a gay disease. BTW, the WHO does not classify homosexuality as an affliction or a mental illness and supports legalized gay marriage.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that diseased persons should not be allowed to marry.

[subuey]

url, please. I know promiscuity seems to be the cause of AIDS in Africa, but homosexuality seems to be the problem here in the U.S. as well as virtually every other disease world-wide...LVG broke out among gays in the Netherlands, they mutated it from chlamydia.

[subuey]

**virtually every other STD**

[BeatBuddy]

Were you in the military? Virtually everyone I served with caught an STD at least once.

[BeatBuddy]

Promiscuity is one thing, homosexuality is another. If what your implied were true, we would see it abound in lesbians, the group with the lowest HIV rate. The promiscuous person who knows what precaustions to take is less likely to contract HIV than the ignorant person who takes a chance once.

[subuey]

Studies have shown lesbians to be higher risk takers (i.e. smoking, etc.) as well as be more prone to STDs and STIs. Yes, they are generally not prone to HIV because they are not perpetually exposed to blood born pathogens, etc.

[BeatBuddy]

The claim is more right wing lies. The American Cancer Association had rebuke that claim, which is available on the Intenet. Lesbians are the least prone to STDs. The average lesbians has no more than 5 different partners in an entire lifetime.

[subuey]

Did the ACA rebuke it with data or a statement? These are studies done and published by pychologists. While lesbians are not prone to HIV, if you compare WSW to heterosexual women, you'll see lesbians have a higher occurence in any category of STD, STI, smoking, preganancy rates (and abortion rates), etc.

[BeatBuddy]

All you have to do is consult the Center for Disease Control. STDs among lesbians is at a lower ebb than any other group. The alleged abortion rate among lesbians is silly. Why would lesbians have a higher abortion rate than straight women if they're not interested in sex with men in the first place? You are looking for excuses to demonize lesbians. You won't find any.

[subuey]

I've been to the CDC website, they do a good job of not comparing lesbians to heterosexual women, but just look at this from one of the sources they used for an article.

[BeatBuddy]

I've been to Christian ministry websites. They do a good job of twisting the facts. There is NO LINK, as fundamentalists claim, between lesbians and straight women. There is some evidence, however, that cancer is highter among women who never had children. But you said the abortion rate among lesbians is higher.

[subuey]

It's true, according to an Australian study, the lesbians there had higher pregnancy, abortion, and prostitution rates (among other things) than het. women.

[BeatBuddy]

This is a specious argument whether it is true or false. In comparing two groups, it's extremely unlikely that the two groups will come up with the same results. This is not an argument against gay marriage.

[BeatBuddy]

Wrong again. The more self-respect and self-love a person has, the less likely they are to be promiscuous. That stands true for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. There is nothing in homosexuality to indicate that the sex drive is any stronger than the sex drive of heterosexuals. There is nothing to indicate that homosexuals are less able to exercise control.

[subuey]

In the 1972 gay rights platform, one of their outlined goals was gay polygamy, as well as abolishing ages of consent, which they've chipped away at in D.C. and the Netherlands. A study in Amsterdam showed that steady gays were much more likely to be risk-takers, i.e. 67% of new diseases occured withint steady parternships.

[BeatBuddy]

Not so. That is the Xiridou study. What was excluded from this study, held in the early 80s, were lesbians, gays from outside of Amsterdam, gays with committed partners, and gays over 30. The study was a demographical one. The religious right always garbles and distorts this study.

[subuey]

No, gays with committed partners, i.e. steady partnerships, were the ones who were most prone.

[BeatBuddy]

No, gays with partners were exluded from the study. Only singles needed apply. Your "facts" are wishful thinking.

[subuey]

and how would you define gays with partners? or singles? the ones in steady relationships had the highest rate of STDs.

[subuey]

I suppose you would be referring to marriage, if they had that when the study was done. byt, where are you getting this information about the study? you can show urls here, just put (dot) instead of dot. not that it matters, since government statistics in Norway and Denmark show married gays die around 20 years earlier.

[BeatBuddy]

This information came from the Dutch press, translated into English, to clarify what the American media didn't cover. Garbling is just as dangerous as an outright lie.

[subuey]

What? Government statistics show that married gays in Norway and Sweden (and I think Canada as well) die around 20 years earlier. By the way, there is no direct empircale evidence to show that discrimination causes the health problems among gays, certain authors simply just state it as fact without empiracle evidence.

[BeatBuddy]

There are no such studies. Give me the resource. Married persons in general live longer than single persons.  You use the word "discrimination", I use the word "stigma". There is no way anyone can bear a stigma without having a detrimental impact on the person's mental health. You can find lots of gays with mental health issues, but that is not an argument against homosexuality. It's an argument against the stigma.

[subuey]

There are no 'what' such studies. Government statistics aren't a study. It's merely a statement of fact that the records of married gays in Norway and Denmark (accepting societies) die around 20 years earlier.

[BeatBuddy]

Nope, your stats come from Stanley Kurtz, who also blames the rise of babies out of wedlock in Sweden on homosexuals. Kurtz is an apologist for Christian fundamentalist dogma. So what you are saying then, is that gays should not be allowed to marry for "their own good." Absurd.

[subuey]

lol, all things anti-gay must automatically be from Stanley Kurtz, eh. No, the study was by Fethers K., Marks C., Mindel A., and Estcourt CS called "Sexually transmitted infections and risk-behaviors in WSW" published in Sexually Transmitted Infections in 2000.

[BeatBuddy]

Guess what, I found a reference in The Christian Post. The fact that it puts gay marriage in quotation marks says all. This death rate is based on a study conducted by Paul Cameron. Just as I expected! Cameron is the same dude who said that gays are 40 times more likely to commit murder. And guess what! Cameron was expelled from the American Psychological Association for falsifying data. There are no behavioral scientists who take anything he says seriously.

[subuey]

The death rate is based on government statistics which Paul Cameron per request received and analyzed. The full report can be seen at earnedmedia/frireport (add the w's and htm).

[subuey]

And Cameron did not claim the 40 times figure, he merely showed the conclusion Kinsey's data should have come to. And the APA accepted his resignation a full year before they decided to 'expell' him to keep their good name after he had lambasted them in an editorial in their journal explaining per request of the APA president to explain his resignation decision.

[BeatBuddy]

That's easy. Those is committed relationships were not allowed to be part of the Xiridou study. Further, this study was held BEFORE gay marriage was enacted. So regardless of the nature of relationships, prior to that the government didn't recognize them. Technically speaking, all gays were, according to law, single.

[subuey]

Ah, so the study was held before gay marriage, how would you possibly classify "committed" relationships then? Those with steady relationships were most prone to disease.

[BeatBuddy]

By an overwhelming margin, those who cast aside the condemnation of homosexuality lead lives that more fully resemble in terms of life satisfaction, participation in honest and healthy relationships, success in the development of their talents, etc.

You are only echoing "studies" that "confirm" what you want to believe. You better ask yourself why you're so resistant to all knowledge stacked against you.

[subuey]

Assuming there are those studeis, "sense of wholeness" is awfully subjective. Let's talk about the CDC National drug abuse Survey in '96, in which they included 26 questions on sexuality (homo. vs. het.) but were so startled that they tried to keep the results from any conservatice think tanks. Oh, and your going to call out government statistics? Those of married gays in Sweden and Denmark, accepting societies (which show they die around 20 years younger).

[BeatBuddy]

An outright lie. Give me your source. Before the legal recognition of gay unions in Denmark, more than 80% of the clergy opposed it. Today more than 90% of the clergy thinks it's a good idea. Saying that longevity is reduced when homosexuality is accepted is patently absurd. BTW, the very term "conservative" to define a think tank speaks for itself. To goal is to be impartial, not conservative.

Those with weak arguments must promote lies. ---Dr. Martin Luther King

[subuey]

No, not the general population, just married 'homosexuals'. Married homosexuals, according to government data in Denmark and Sweden, die around 20 years earlier than the general population there.

[BeatBuddy]

If that were true than gay marriage would be revoked. Mental health studies in the USA show that married persons are happier, have better sex lives, and live longer. Again, you are using manipulated studies. Some of them are discussed in my favorites.

[subuey]

ha, homosexual acceptance by mainstream organizations has been set ever since the APA decided to redefine it in '73 - health problems are merely an easily bypassed obsticle. Married gays live longer in the U.S. than heterosexuals? I beg you to site the studies.

[BeatBuddy]

All mainstream organizations accept homosexuality because there are no ailments and diseases that are endemic to homosexuality. What you are giving me is right wing bullshit, and all of your comments say more about you than sexual orientation.  It was also held in the USA that blacks were disease carriers. Jews and Gypsies were accused of the same in Europe.

[subuey]

unfortunately you can't compare yourself to blacks, since they don't have to argue that they were 'born with a black skin color', the Jew accusations would have been Hitler and his possy I'm thinking.

[BeatBuddy]

Wrong again. Homosexuality is an immutable condition. Even if it were chosen, the issue of gay rights is moot. In a free society, there is the right to choose. If you have a characteristic that is not chosen, you have a right to be your authentic self.

[subuey]

You don't have a right not to wear your seatbelt.