MSNBC (07-07-09) - California & Other States Face Emergency Budget Crisis

[BeyondTheSpectrum08]

I did answer your question, but you are apparently so hell-bent on preserving your ideological dogma and showing how "intelligent" you are that you didn't take notice. I have a double degree in both history and political science, so I would advise you to read more history, less economics, and learn to challenge your beliefs more readily. Have a good day.

[mctarmac10]

Oh and I liked the cutesy attempt to prove Deficit spending > Tax relief with the mind blowing referencing.

How about another easy question (I give to first year ECON tutorials) if deficit spending on Government mandated projects leads to more stable and genuine growth then tax cuts, why not spend all the time? Why only counter cyclically?

Truly a dependent mind that believes the Govt can spend his or her money better then he or she can. And completely unsound Economics to boot.

[BeyondTheSpectrum08]

Allow me to say this in plain English...while government cannot solve every problem, neither can the Free Market. As for spending vs. tax breaks; if I'm unemployed, all the tax breaks in the world wont do any good. However, if the government can spend money on projects which provide me a job, then THAT would benefit me. Some of you think as though capitalism was a law of physics that came about when the universe was born. Its a system which evolved from previous systems, & will eveolve again.

[mctarmac10]

Again, dodged every point I made, I don't blame you, If I was a Statist big government type I wouldn't have an answer either.

Again, name me an economic crisis/recession that didn't involve the Government. Its impossible, but go ahead and try, I doubt you could continue on this "Gov and Market are needed" crap if you cant answer that question.

[mctarmac10]

As for your tax analogy, jeez I mean really If your gonna make social/economic issue videos;

a basic grounding in Economics would be a must.

Government funded job benefit you? Of course, just like the fish who enjoys a hook with a worm on it...until the long term picture comes into it.

Sorry to say but the GOVT doesn't create wealth, it taxes or prints. So were not creating MORE jobs just the same number...which brings you to an argument over which are better (private v public jobs.)

[mctarmac10]

An argument even the most deluded leftie wouldn't poke a stick at. SO back to square one; who provides employment in the economy? Business's. Hmm tax rates for business in California? 45%? , 50%? I see..

So to recap our nice little class, if Business had more money, would they not expand and hire new labor?

SO as we can see "unemployed benefit not from tax cuts" is just plain wrong, and rather ridiculous.

[BeyondTheSpectrum08]

You're simply too partisan to continue talking with...you're too wedded to ideological dogma. But to answer your question, government has been involved in quite a few economic crisis in this nation's history, but business has been involved in many more of them (like the depressions of the late 19th & 20th centuries, and the current crisis...but predictably, you'll disagree). Again, the Free Market is not a law of physics...you would do well to stop treating it so sacrosanct. ;)

[mctarmac10]

Sigh; again , chronic inability to address any points raised, no rebuttal, no answers, limited/ non existent analysis... and to cap it off a nice attack on the man not the issue "simply too partisan" (and I'm not even American? lol.)

"Late 19th and 20th centuries" do please elaborate; and be careful, unlike you I do actually have qualifications in economics.

Show me just one instance where a country has benefited from becoming less of a free market...just one, boy this will be fun.

[BeyondTheSpectrum08]

You're quite right Pariah2001. We don't have 2 political parties in this country--what we have are 2 sides of the same coin, both working together to blunt the interests of the people in lieu of their own petty self-interests. Petty narrow-minded ideological beliefs, big money whores, cushy-legislative job security, both thinking THEY have the answer to everything. One group has no morals, the other overly self-righeous & throwing stones in glass houses; but of course, I'm being "judgemental"

[neolestat13]

HEMP INDUSTRY!!

[mctarmac10]

Gotta love MSNBC, I especially liked when the map of States in crisis came up the amount of time showing all states (6-7 out of 8 Democrat?) was less than half a second, with Illinois highlighted last.. of course our Emperor has clothes!

[Pariah2001]

So true. But then again, I think about how Republicans are always talking about "less/lower taxes." I guess California is a Repubican utopia since it was all the anti-taxation and voting against taxes (along with irresponsible sending by both parties) that has resulted in current crisis.

[mctarmac10]

Spoken like a true Liberal "It would have worked if we just had a bit more of their money", sorry any attempt to make Calif look Repub is funny

Fact check, Calif already has one of the highest rate tax systems in the country, Unions own the government and campaign for mandated spending increases, you have ...

You know what; its easier to describe Calif like this, imagine every Democrat proposal and ideological solution , put em all together, and hey presto! The most bankrupt state in the union

[Pariah2001]

On the other hand, if Bush had gotten his way and had Social Security privatized, the current financial crisis would have been a Tsuami instead of a tidal wave....yeah, Republicans know so much better. LOLOL

[Pariah2001]

Lucikly though, there we Democrats in the government who prevented the Bush & the Republicans from privatizing Social Security, which would have made things even worse. LOL. But then again, we don't have parties in America...we have one party with personas; Samantha & Serena played by Elizabeth Montgomery. Not everyone identifies as "liberal" and/or "conservative." I'll leave the tagging to you experts. LOLOL

[mctarmac10]

As you seem to have no education in economics Ill have fun; Lucky the Democrats were in Government?

Thank you Democrats, thank you for CRA, Fannie-Freddie, Encouraging home ownership, supporting the Iraq war, Getting funky with Monica while Osama declared war, California, Keith Olbermann, the nanny state, higher taxes, world and historical record levels of debt, the gangster state of Illinois, More troops in Afghanistan, The only use of nuclear weapons, Vietnam War, Korean War and welfare.

[Pariah2001]

Red Herrings. You still didnt address the point (i.e., fact) that had Bush & the Republicans had their way and privatized Social Security, this country would probably be in a depression. It was Bush's irresponsible first-round tax cuts and record military spending on an unjustified war that ballooned the deficit. It was McCain who championed DE-regulation which led to the banking crisis. Government cannot solve every problem but NEITHER can the Free Market. Republi-Crats..you all are so funny.

[mctarmac10]

Bush's irresponsible tax cuts that ballooned the deficit; your really going with that?

Amazing how some don't mind sounding like complete know nothings online. Where to begin...

fuck me... ECON101?

Tax cuts and deregulation caused the GFC..., what have you been reading, a cereal box?

Sub Prime Mortgage Market = Most heavily regulated section of housing market, go figure.

CRA, Freddie, Fannie? Hell Obama even sued banks to encourage home lending, again... go figure.

[BeyondTheSpectrum08]

You are wrong. What you believe goes against what every economist and financial analyst has said about Bush's tax cuts and his desire to pump money into the military post 9/11. That there we not rules and regulations that prevented bankers and others from engaging to creating "toxic" assests, unrestrained borrowing (at any price) contributed heavily to the financial crisis. Congressmen from both aisles voted to creat favorable conditions for Freddie/Fannie to spiral downward.

[mctarmac10]

No in fact they didn't. CRA was Democrat legislation and expanded under Clinton, Fannie and Freddie repeatedly came under Republican scrutiny to be told by (D) Barney Franks that F+F presented "no systemic risk." Franklin Raines (CEO of Fannie and later advisor to Obama) had been corrupt the entire time Democratic senators had his back.

Im fairly certain you can watch the hearing on youtube "CRA" should do the trick.

[mctarmac10]

That banks could create "toxic assets" (here create is inappropriate as the mortgages themselves were toxic, not the products which were and did reduce some of the toxicity) is not the issue, or at least the important part.

But why did they create such risky investments? Where did this push to expand borrowing to low income families come from?

The Fed with easy credit?, Govt actively forcing banks to lend to unworthy debtors? The ratings agencies with AAA ratings under SEC (GOVT) regulations?

[mctarmac10]

Again any tax cut, ANY is a good thing, and believe me far more (economists) would argue that cuts are more effective in generating real growth then any other form of government action.

The top 1% of the Income tax bracket pay 40% of all tax revenue. While the bottom 50% pays 0%; that's right, 0%. And again discretionary war spending does not bankrupt a country such as yours, please.

California, with one of the highest tax rates in America, is also the most screwed, go figure.

[mctarmac10]

Deregulation didn't force banks to splice and dice mortgage packages, systemic influences promoted, legislated in favor of and encouraged such lending in the name of promoting home ownership. Guess who?

Government.

That anyone would believe the deregulation fat cat theory during the crisis is perhaps understandable; to still peddle this nonsense would have Marx spinning in his grave.

[BeyondTheSpectrum08]

I make it a point never to debate anyone so obviously partisan. It's sheer insanity to believe that any single political/economic/social group is responssible for the economic crisis & to believe that everyone else wrong, and only Republicans and/or conservatives can only be right (no pun intended). Blind adherence to political ideology (liberal or conservative) is why this country is the shap it's in. Let go & do the right thing, not the believable thing-be pragmatic, not dogmatic!

[mctarmac10]

Nice way to dodge everything I said (as most Lefties tend to do (play the man not the ball);

Far more insane is to believe that some how (perhaps mystically?) both sides of the spectrum offer equally beneficial outcomes? I'm sorry but not every idea in society is a good one.

How about a simple test; name me an economic crisis where the government was not involved? As I know the answer I'll continue, which party believes in limited government and which the nanny state?

[kballment]

unfortunately you are correct. also when people realize that they dont have to work to get unemployment they wont. instead they will not work and get free handouts

[asmknshorty420]

how can they tax ppl who don't have jobs?? they can't. that's the problem, when ppl lose jobs, they file for unemployment, which is not taxed, and is paid for w/ your tax dollars. its a cycle that doesnt do anything but bring us down further. WAKE UP AMERICA!!!! ITS ABOUT TO GET ALOT WORSE!!!!!!!!

[pochlomin]

:(((((so sad..