hay dude i'm not a theist but i think i got an answer for most of the qustions you asked, read? Evalution.did i spell that right? thank you & good night :)
I guess the easy answer from a Christian to this would be : God made chimps that way. He doesn't direct morals to them; they're just automatons who behave that way.
@gatorhighlights4 I suposed that would be an answer... from someone who dismisses all of evolutionary biology and believes chimps popped out of the ether on one sunny day near the Garden of Eden.
But alas, Goodall documented "progressive morality" in chimps. In other words, they "grow". They learn, adapt, and change values over time.
@rationalmuscle Well that's just as well because many Christians do dismiss evolutionary biology and believe chimps popped out of the ether on one day near the Garden of Eden. They won't commit to the day being sunny, though.
What's unsettling about the claim that no god = no morality; that no god = worthless, useless, lost human beings, is just how nonchalant it is in its admission of how little one thinks of humans. This is a partial loss of one's humanity; it has to be.
I'd also like to add that similar behaviors exist in numerous other species, especially ones that have evolved social structures. Morality is just the name we give for the set of behaviors species evolve to improve social cohesion. Those who lack it have less chance of reproducing (if they get caught), which is why morality is adaptive (and why immorality tends to be conducted in secret).
@Underlings Thanks Underlings. I think your definition of "morality" should be used by Webster... if Webster still exists now that Wikipedia is about. ; )
morality is a learned trait within the social structure
mammals of all kinds have the ability to reason and discern right from wrong. since they are always so closely in relation to humans, science will do anything to establish a connection
im still tryna figure out how a person can be around chimps and just say they dont pray or have a God. no1 is fluent in chimpazee so this is gonna go as a theory
@maurices07 Good answer for the first part, epic fail for the second/third. You should 'read' the research before you critique it. You'd learn that most mammal studies, especially chimps, are done in the wild. Goodall's research started for 15 years in the wild... i.e. NO human interaction. She has witnessed the birth and death of entire families of chimps alone from humans who react the SAME way. This is learned, but NOT from humans. NO symbols or traits of worship, so no god. But dream on.
@maurices07 Here's an interesting question to finish up the series (and thanks btw for answering... just doing so takes balls, and it's appreciated.)
If chimps pray, and there's absolutely no evidence of this but let's say they pray silently or something, to which god do you theorize they pray to?
Please consider the Hebrew god was roughly in the middle of the timeline of gods; far from the oldest, and there were several after him. Or do they pray to a giant silver-back gorilla? : )
@rationalmuscle i mean we cant say what it is they do pray to. i remember as a child being told that rocks pray to God. im not sure if its in the bible or not but there are things we as humans cant prove absolutely. until humans bridge the language gap or find a way to read chimps minds we cant say what they do. its like we can think in our minds but unless in deep thought u cant tell from the outside
@maurices07 Your analogy of the rock (which, btw, is somewhat in the Bible... the passage you're thinking about is Luke 19:40, and Christ is clearly being metaphorical here. Even as an atheist I give a Rabbi like Jesus much more credit than that) is a good one. We know this is impossible without the suspension of all known physical laws, something never witnessed or recorded for review. Doubtful it's happening. Lastly, chimps' smaller brains (3x) may explain the lack of worship. HAR1 and all.
@rationalmuscle we cant say its impossible, isnt it called inconclusive when u cant obtain enough evidence? and its not that hard 2 worship, a kneel is a sign of worship but its nothin we can prove to say they do also nothin we can prove to say they dont. i think our debate is a stalemate, but as far as u sayin chimps dont pray or worship that goes under wrong becuz we have yet 2 obtain something that can back it. NICE DEBATE! =]
@JohnHenryAlex well yeah but the platypus isnt half beaver half duck. they dont understand evolution in the first place that's why they are looking for half beaver half duck half anythings for a transitional species. ive heard a lot of people say that platypus thing but i dont think that's a good way to respond to the crockaduck pic. it would be better to explain why you dont find animals like that then give them an example that is pure coincidence.
@JohnHenryAlex Sounds good. Now clearly prove to me that YOU exist. And I'll NOT allow you to make an appeal to the holistic experience of yourself, as I'm not allowed to make that appeal in regard to God. And if that's too hard, then prove to me with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that 1+1=2, making NO assumptions about the nature of Reality. If you're going to be SO DIFFICULT about God, then I expect you to be AS difficult in regard to the LEGITIMACY of the FOUNDATIONS of your OWN rational thinking. Amen?
@JohnHenryAlex Hmmm. Let me tell you something. To EXPERIENCE God is automatically to become an EVANGELIST on His Behalf. It's THAT GOOD. You want EVERYONE to get in on it. So to my mind this is NOT a mere discussion between us. This is a ministerial situation, and I'm bringing on the redemptive pressure in Christ. I SHOULDN'T? But I don't answer to you! I don't defer to you in any way. I defer to God. He tells me what to do. So I'm BRINGIN' Him on, like it or not. It's my duty. My privilege!
@JohnHenryAlex You're being difficult. You make 1 good point though: I gotta tighten up what I mean by not-God. I mean the negation of any rational concept of God. Surely you don't need proof that CONCEPTS of God exist. So an atheist is a denier of the validitiy of any RATIONAL concept of God. This denial is in itself a concept. And now you're stuck looking like a DOGMATIC believer in your not-God. Posit God as some unanalyzable NOTHING, and now you're dealing in the TRANSCENDENT, like a mystic.
@JohnHenryAlex To my way of thinking, atheists, and agnostics for that matter, are all the same in the most fundamental way. They're denying that they intuit the Presence of God. Theists are all the same in that we affirm our intuition of God's Presence. But we go on then to rationalize, dogmatize, and politicize that intuition in many different ways. And this disasterous mistake occurs the moment a theist posits God as anything other than the metaphysical Absolute. I'm keen on avoiding that.
@JohnHenryAlex This stance is easily destroyed. How would you express your disbelief by way of logical terminology? You must posit it as the term not-God. So now you have something in which you DO believe, this not-God concept. And if you LEVEL with yourself, you'll find in fact that you loyally REVERE and emotionally DEPEND on this not-God. And since your not-God is a concept that's liable to rational analysis, it's just as bogus as any other such concept of God: Creator, Controller of events.
@JohnHenryAlex Yes, it's aimed at easily-targeted theists, so that atheists might re-inforce their doubt all too conveniently. I come in to bust up this whole game. And if you think about it, is it really a game worth playing? Who cares what STUPID people think of God? How does THEIR concept of God relate to Who He is on His Own terms? As for my raising the matter of consciousness, why SHOULDN'T a theist return the favor and make it as DIFFICULT as possible for an atheist to argue his point?
2. It would seem they are...at least on the face of it. Interesting, indeed. Doesn't prove or disprove anything. Why would The Personal Intelligence not give, what appears to be, characteristics of moral proclivity to a one of His design/creation The Chimp?
3. From answer two, there isn't cause for a response to #3.
The First Cause Devine I believe in can distribute moral qualities to anyone or thing He chooses w/o my permission.
@gle1244 Thanks for answering the questions. You're the second; Baltimark gave some interesting ones for sure.
1. Let's remember that chimps love, share, etc... but also murder for land. Same designer?
2. See question number 1.
3. True... ; )
Another question is "why chimps"? We see this behavior only in our most common ancestors. This could be because they are easier to study, but the similarities along with what we know of DNA... a bit much to deny for me. Thanks G!
@JohnHenryAlex 2/2) Why bring up consciousness? How can we speculate on behavior, in some ULTIMATE way like RM is asking us to, without indeed knowing what is the ULTIMATE basis of bahavior, and that is consciousness? Or do you think that the nature of consciousness is irrelevant, simply because bringing the matter up is inconvenient? As for the rest, I'm reminding RM that there's more to religion than dogma. There's a mystical component. And no one can judge religion FAIRLY w/o EXPERIENCING it.
@JohnHenryAlex 1/2) Hmmm. Well, honestly, like most questions atheists ask, these sound like ones you could answer for yourself. And I do hate sketching out obvious answers. RM is confused because he still can't distinguish between God such as He is on His Own terms, and the various ways in which we mere dunder-headed humans rationalize, dogmatize, and politicize Him. You probably can't either. But to those of us who can, the whole premise of this video is unnecessary.
Hey! Love the new intro. The logo is fun. And excellent on substance.
Sorry I've been out of touch. Been CRAZY busy and watching videos only here and there. Things are calming down and I'm catching up. Great to hear from you and very well done.
@ProfMTH Thanks Prof! High praise for sure, and it's much appreciated. Just checked out the Adam vid... and That. Was. Priceless. I just HAVE to know if this guy is a beyond-brilliant satirist who snuck into the WWJD stations unnoticed (er...?) and this is the result.
Interesting. Oddly I was reading Pale blue dot last night (yes I know it's about time), and left off just after the part where Carl was talking about the human centric universe, particularly the idea that we were the pinnacle in the animal community, and he mentions the similarity between us, and chimps. After putting the book down I couldn't decide which of us was the pinnacle. We bother exhibit the best of humanity, and the worst despite the fact that we know better.
its easier 2 have a belief that man was created by a supernatural power than to assume chimps have no God. my belief in God has literary context to back, yours about chimps dont pray to God have . . . .
& ill re watch the video, answer the questions, then wait for ur scoffs
@maurices07 Yes, many things that are easier to understand as a child are easier to believe as an adult as well.
But as a former pastor, I'm MORE than happy to delve into the "literary context" behind your deity if you so choose to open the conversation. We can start with Genesis 1, since you have started there already if you like. Let me know if you believe Genesis to be literal, figurative, or a mixture of both -- and why.
Oh, would you mind telling me who the Chimp God is too? Thanks.
@maurices07 Oh, sorry ... to complete your sentence...
... "about 50 years of research by, for one, Jane Goodall, who spent more time with chimps in one minute than Paul did with Jesus in one lifetime."
I'd say my literature on the subject is a tad larger than the bible... and peer-reviewed at that. Over 250,000 pages and counting. (Hint: That's a tad longer than The Bible, even if you used 24-point Helvetica for a font.)
@rationalmuscle ok so literature and bein around mammals makes u clairvoyant?? {-.^} astounding! so by the time im 50 i should be able to read mines. it all makes perfect sense. thats why people are wiser when they're older! hot diggity dog!!
yay we all came from chimps. lol @ the foolishness people believe, and then we assume chimps can or cant speak to God becuz.... we are humans and are omnipotent?? Science provides reasons but science also changes. 1 scientific theory from 3 months ago can be debated or no longer true becuz of some state change
such an awesome video. ill add this video when i need to be humored that we all are monkeys
@maurices07 Yes we all came from an invisible man in the sky who needed both dirt and a rib to make man and woman. LoL indeed. I'll bookmark this post when I need to be reminded how poorly most creationists spell. Oh and answer the questions - why didn't you? Can't?
@maurices07 The theories in science change because they evolve with the finding & understanding of new knowledge. Oh and if you dont know the difference between monkeys & chimps dont bother commenting you ingnorant fool! Go back to the dark ages from whence you came!!!
@maurices07 Most Creationists are soooo ignorant of ANY facts regarding evolution and yet you all criisise it. If you DONT know the FACTS of the subject DONT say anything at all!! The perpetuation of scientific ignorance is religious doctrinaire .
I'd like to add, that chimps also judge/punish intentions, just as we do. In a famous experiment, two chimps sit in cages in front of each other. Between them is a board. Chimp B can pull the board to his cage with a string, chimp A can pull a string to make the board turn over.
Food is placed on the board in front of chimp A. If chimp B pulls the food to his cage, A pulls the string: both get nothing.
If the food is moved by a researcher, chimp A gets still angry, but doesn't pull the string.
@OnTheFritz602 Same here, hence the video. My 'exact' first thought was how gangs and warrior tribes, including the religious "death to infidels" groups are closer to apes in behavior than humans... which sucks, as I like apes. : )
@JohnHenryAlex John, I added the links/book refs I forgot in the original upload in the description box. There are many more of course, but these cover the issues I discussed. Thanks.
@JohnHenryAlex Hi John, yes I did... I forgot the one re: punishment within tribes though, so I'll find that study again and post it. This was not a planned video, so the chips kinda fell where they may.
@rationalmuscle Last week. They took out everything apart from the retina and then replaced the damaged bits. I now have a lens that was made in a lab. Everything's a bit murky at the mo and the pain from the Trigeminal nerve waking up is almost awe inspiring. A case of "Hi, I'm the damaged 5th cranial nerve. You may remember me from pains such as this............ And this............" Still, the pain killers are fun lol.
@falchion49 Damn bro... that sucks. As Butthead would say, "Cranial nerves suck." But it's cool that your best God-designed example is now made in the U.K. By intelligent design, of course. ; )
@rationalmuscle Amazing how such an intelligent design was so essential yet so fragile as to require (so far) seven hours of surgery to repair the damage done by a low speed BFT. Bet the 'Designer' never saw that one coming lol. You're right, the irony is of course now that I have an 'intelligently designed' eye. In this case by a surgical team backed up by thousands of hours of study and many years of scientific research. On the shoulders of giants is a nice place to be ;-)
@falchion49 Hey now... let's not rag on a designer who designed the foreskin to be removed by a rather dull knife. That's QUALITY design we're talkin' bout...
@rationalmuscle This does mean that the 'designer', considering we're supposedly made in his/her/its image, is just as susceptible to haemorrhoids as the rest of us. Uneasy is the bottom that sits upon the throne...........
I've been using points like this (without the current research) in discussions with theists for a while now. Thanks for putting this video together. It's nice to know I was on the right track.
my intro psychology prof was really into chimps and he always had chimp stories. one was about these chimps that were in captivity. the chimps formed 3 camps and there was a sort of hierarchy with the more popular chimps getting the best spot to live. one day the two lowers camps overthrew the #1 group and it was like a battle. they threw the dead bodies of fallen chimps over the fence. in the end there was a complete rearrangement of social status. turf wars!
@1aaronaaron1 Trippy isn't it? Planet of the Apes echoes in my brain... but seriously, the behavior is really an uncanny parallel to human behavior in so many ways. As AaronRa would say, "We didn't come from apes... WE ARE APES."
I wonder why theists hate the idea that we "evolved" from apes (not accurate, but nonetheless) and are okay with coming from dirt. At least monkeys are funny. Dirt just sits there. Lousy entertainment. Heh.
@jancar2012 Damn! Forget the Holy Yeti. I hear there's a pedophile prophet in the Middle East somewhere preaching about a false god, Sasquatch. Who knows what wars we have to look forward to now. ; )
do the chimpanzee follow some sort of a basic tradition/rituals cause the early neanderthals also used these rituals, traditions and cultural values and i though if the chimps show ANY signs of rituals (not the ussual scratch my back) thatd be awesome
@Saber10inch Yes, they do. The most sophisticated tools that chimps use found to-date was discovered this year, I believe... or last. The article in on msnbc if you want to check it out (with links to the find of course.)
@Saber10inch Some groups of chimps like to take a bath, others don't. Some groups developed the art of hunting with spears. Watch "Ape genius" here on YT for some sweet jaw droppers.
1/2) O my God. You're so almost hopelessly confused. First, regarding your edited-in point, how conveniently mechanistic. Do you know what is life? Do you know what is consciousness? Can we speculate until then? I don't know when science is going to discover spirits. Maybe only after the political Left asks it to. But that will amount to a much-needed revolution. As for your questions: 1) Nature. 2) For sure. But morality is just a practical matter, nothing Absolute. 3) I like this question. ...
@baltimark 2/2) ... It'll make my fellow theists, typically rational and dogmatic, squirm. And they need to be made to squirm. This is how atheists are actually serving to ADVANCE religion! You're making certain positions untenable. And our letting them go will be a matter of spiritual good riddance. We can then proceed to intuit the Presence of the Divine more purely on His Terms, not ours. As for my answer: The only truly Godly behavior is the practice of holistic SURRENDER to the Absolute.
@Godlessons Depends on how you define spirits. But, believe me, if the Left needs for science to discover something, it'll do so at once, even if it's truly immaterial, like global warming. Amen?
@baltimark P.S. Your answers were quite good, btw, despite the pretense. And yes, this would make most theists squirm for sure. The rest makes we agnostics/atheists squirm, but that's the point of these videos - discussion often has that effect.
@baltimark You know me Mark... mechanistic (i.e. deductive) to a fault. I believe any answer to "what is life" will be equally so, as anything 'other' is conjecture, philosophy, or wild ranting. But I'm open to possibilities, hence the open invite for opinions -- unlike someone I know.
That said, per our last conversation, we have found a place to do it. This will happen next week as I'm still recovering. Keep you posted. Until then, keep it civil.
@rationalmuscle It's true, I got zero patience with uninformed opinions. When I'm among combat veterans who are discussing war, I keep my mouth shut. For a similar reason, atheists should keep their mouths shut about God. To be an atheist is automatically not to know what ones talking about on that subject, which is ultimately an EXPERIENTIAL matter. No experience? No opinion allowed. Amen? As for conjecture, what sort of rational thinking ISN'T conjecture? ALL of it is based on assumptions.
@baltimark Given your position of "it's all experiential", which has validity despite being totally subjective TO that person, what you're saying makes sense. However, you toss out theology for the most part in this context, which makes for a lot of confusion to say the 'least' on the matter. And not everyone who has the experience has the 'same' experience. I'd say experiences are based on assumptions as well, not the least of which is that it was truly God. We'll see...
@rationalmuscle Eh. I'm not feeling that's what my position is. I think what I'm saying is that every matter apart from God, as He defines Himself in His Own terms, is merely relative and practical. I'm just keen on DEFLATING rationalists. I'm tired of their pretending that a strong consensus equals Absolute Knowledge. Now, insofar as theology is just a lot of political wanking-off, especially as it's practiced by Liberal theologians, O you bet I throw it out, and then go wash my hands.
@baltimark Yep, balitmark! I couldn't agree more. Everyone has a right to express their assumptions. I do have an appreciation for that. But the Dawkinian approach that basically says, "you have mush for brains if you don't agree with my "good science" is an insult to all of the other brilliant minds that arrive at different sets of assumptions from theirs.
@gle1244 What I'm saying is that ALL our brains are mush, compared with the Mind of God, and He doesn't deal in mere rationalism at all, a statement that horrifies Christian apologists even more than it does atheists.
@Schneboll I liked Baltimark's answers, which have an odd fit with the conclusion to his answers... still, the answers were good. Awaiting more... doubt I'll get them. ; )
@rationalmuscle I read his answers. They just seem to state that we do not really know anything therefore i can make up whatever i like. "Ex nihilo nihil fit" out of nothing comes nothing, and thus he's answers seem to "fit". Cheers.
I love your videos keep up the good work. I just have one question though... Who was the ass that tied the monkey to the crucifix at 2:45? I mean yeah it was funny but that's messed up man why they got to crucify the monkey? Is that supposed to be monkey Jesus or just some common theif monkey? I mean someone took the picture so you know someone actually took the time to tie that monkey to the crucifix!
@CappitranoBellephant jesus would not permit kirk camron to live for his creation of the crockaduck using the methods of 'witchcraft' er i mean photoshop hahah
@1aaronaaron1 Monkey Jesus definitely supports Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfot as the preach the truth about the importance of bananas! It's obvious that the monkey hand was made for holding babanas. Much like the how shape of feces is similar to that of the bananas so that we can easily hold it in our hands and throw it at our enemies! Praise white monkey Jesus!
@CappitranoBellephant Unfortunately that was not photoshop -- and yeah, I debated using that image as I love monkeys. Even had one as a pet when I was a kid. But the monkey wasn't hurt, or so I would imagine as Trent would have been prosecuted. That's from Nine Inch Nail's video, "Closer." It's a bit misplaced as it's shocking, which wasn't the point. Thanks for pointing it out... may edit that bit. ; )
@rationalmuscle I know it's no big deal when I saw it I laughed but a part of me still feels bad for the monkey because he's being tied down and doesn't really know why. Glad to hear he was ok though :-)
@rationalmuscle well, i mean like the example of the jews etc and the rest of the world pre ten commandments. not killing and stealing wasn't a new idea when moses descended with the tablets, ya know?
but you're absolutely correct, this is a right in there face modern day example, the only think i could think of would be they'd say, "well god made them that way..."
been hearing that answer for just about anything and everything these days to get out of something that stumps them.
@phead80 Ah... gotcha. The "God made them that way" has a problem when you consider the killing for land issue. But then again, God made Israel a killing machine for land, so... yeah. Guess he likes turf wars. ; )
@rationalmuscle haha no shit. the atrocities he's had committed over land are horrible. but ya, what's so frustrating is they seem to have an answer for everything, even if it doesn't make sense to you or properly answer your question, it's good enough for them and it makes them feel smug, so that's all that matters.
@rationalmuscle Which is unfortuante as there is compelling evidence for a Pre-Bible God. There's even evidence for a pre Bible God's wife. Which technically means that when JC was conceived that the God of the Bible was actually playing around.
@falchion49 I've read legends of Ra and El, both of whom had either plurality or wives. Of course this is nothing new to the Greeks... all their gods loved to fuck. I think that's important in a deity.
Joking aside, re: Yahweh. I often ask believers if Mary was raped by God, or if God impregnated her, say, in her sleep (the ruffie technique)... or if it was by consent, making her a God-whore. Either way, Mary is a bit of the iffy side if you ask me.
you evil little basturd?!
Gemeni3insane 6 months ago
@Gemeni3insane I try, I try...
rationalmuscle 6 months ago
hay dude i'm not a theist but i think i got an answer for most of the qustions you asked, read? Evalution.did i spell that right? thank you & good night :)
Gemeni3insane 6 months ago
@Gemeni3insane Of course... hence the sarcasm around the video.
rationalmuscle 6 months ago
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HybridD91 7 months ago
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HybridD91 7 months ago
If we're created in god's image then why aren't we invisible?
luisdez81 7 months ago
@luisdez81 Heh... : )
rationalmuscle 7 months ago
I guess the easy answer from a Christian to this would be : God made chimps that way. He doesn't direct morals to them; they're just automatons who behave that way.
gatorhighlights4 11 months ago
@gatorhighlights4 I suposed that would be an answer... from someone who dismisses all of evolutionary biology and believes chimps popped out of the ether on one sunny day near the Garden of Eden.
But alas, Goodall documented "progressive morality" in chimps. In other words, they "grow". They learn, adapt, and change values over time.
Just like we do.
rationalmuscle 11 months ago
@rationalmuscle Well that's just as well because many Christians do dismiss evolutionary biology and believe chimps popped out of the ether on one day near the Garden of Eden. They won't commit to the day being sunny, though.
What's unsettling about the claim that no god = no morality; that no god = worthless, useless, lost human beings, is just how nonchalant it is in its admission of how little one thinks of humans. This is a partial loss of one's humanity; it has to be.
gatorhighlights4 11 months ago
@gatorhighlights4 // They won't commit to the day being sunny, though. // They'd have to. God had yet to invent rain. : )
I agree completely with your last statement. Thanks!
rationalmuscle 11 months ago
Nicely done, Jon.
I'd also like to add that similar behaviors exist in numerous other species, especially ones that have evolved social structures. Morality is just the name we give for the set of behaviors species evolve to improve social cohesion. Those who lack it have less chance of reproducing (if they get caught), which is why morality is adaptive (and why immorality tends to be conducted in secret).
Underlings 1 year ago
@Underlings Thanks Underlings. I think your definition of "morality" should be used by Webster... if Webster still exists now that Wikipedia is about. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Pardon my Aramaic, but this video is FUCKING FANTASTIC!!!!
43alley 1 year ago
@43alley Isn't that a dead language? Heh... thanks Alley. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
answer to questions:
morality is a learned trait within the social structure
mammals of all kinds have the ability to reason and discern right from wrong. since they are always so closely in relation to humans, science will do anything to establish a connection
im still tryna figure out how a person can be around chimps and just say they dont pray or have a God. no1 is fluent in chimpazee so this is gonna go as a theory
maurices07 1 year ago
@maurices07 Good answer for the first part, epic fail for the second/third. You should 'read' the research before you critique it. You'd learn that most mammal studies, especially chimps, are done in the wild. Goodall's research started for 15 years in the wild... i.e. NO human interaction. She has witnessed the birth and death of entire families of chimps alone from humans who react the SAME way. This is learned, but NOT from humans. NO symbols or traits of worship, so no god. But dream on.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@maurices07 Here's an interesting question to finish up the series (and thanks btw for answering... just doing so takes balls, and it's appreciated.)
If chimps pray, and there's absolutely no evidence of this but let's say they pray silently or something, to which god do you theorize they pray to?
Please consider the Hebrew god was roughly in the middle of the timeline of gods; far from the oldest, and there were several after him. Or do they pray to a giant silver-back gorilla? : )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle i mean we cant say what it is they do pray to. i remember as a child being told that rocks pray to God. im not sure if its in the bible or not but there are things we as humans cant prove absolutely. until humans bridge the language gap or find a way to read chimps minds we cant say what they do. its like we can think in our minds but unless in deep thought u cant tell from the outside
maurices07 1 year ago
@maurices07 Your analogy of the rock (which, btw, is somewhat in the Bible... the passage you're thinking about is Luke 19:40, and Christ is clearly being metaphorical here. Even as an atheist I give a Rabbi like Jesus much more credit than that) is a good one. We know this is impossible without the suspension of all known physical laws, something never witnessed or recorded for review. Doubtful it's happening. Lastly, chimps' smaller brains (3x) may explain the lack of worship. HAR1 and all.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle we cant say its impossible, isnt it called inconclusive when u cant obtain enough evidence? and its not that hard 2 worship, a kneel is a sign of worship but its nothin we can prove to say they do also nothin we can prove to say they dont. i think our debate is a stalemate, but as far as u sayin chimps dont pray or worship that goes under wrong becuz we have yet 2 obtain something that can back it. NICE DEBATE! =]
maurices07 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle They pray to bubbles, the mythical ape who spent many a year doing his best to save the soul of his perverted hoo-man master.
I kid, I kid.
I'd sub, but youtube keeps saying "please wait..." in a rather sardonic fashion when I try to subscribe.
Very interesting video btw,
pamew 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex well yeah but the platypus isnt half beaver half duck. they dont understand evolution in the first place that's why they are looking for half beaver half duck half anythings for a transitional species. ive heard a lot of people say that platypus thing but i dont think that's a good way to respond to the crockaduck pic. it would be better to explain why you dont find animals like that then give them an example that is pure coincidence.
1aaronaaron1 1 year ago
Huh, pretty fascinating stuff.
EricTheNihilist 1 year ago
@EricTheNihilist Agreed!
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Sounds good. Now clearly prove to me that YOU exist. And I'll NOT allow you to make an appeal to the holistic experience of yourself, as I'm not allowed to make that appeal in regard to God. And if that's too hard, then prove to me with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that 1+1=2, making NO assumptions about the nature of Reality. If you're going to be SO DIFFICULT about God, then I expect you to be AS difficult in regard to the LEGITIMACY of the FOUNDATIONS of your OWN rational thinking. Amen?
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Hmmm. Let me tell you something. To EXPERIENCE God is automatically to become an EVANGELIST on His Behalf. It's THAT GOOD. You want EVERYONE to get in on it. So to my mind this is NOT a mere discussion between us. This is a ministerial situation, and I'm bringing on the redemptive pressure in Christ. I SHOULDN'T? But I don't answer to you! I don't defer to you in any way. I defer to God. He tells me what to do. So I'm BRINGIN' Him on, like it or not. It's my duty. My privilege!
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex I figured that out yesterday, so yeah... no edits. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex You're being difficult. You make 1 good point though: I gotta tighten up what I mean by not-God. I mean the negation of any rational concept of God. Surely you don't need proof that CONCEPTS of God exist. So an atheist is a denier of the validitiy of any RATIONAL concept of God. This denial is in itself a concept. And now you're stuck looking like a DOGMATIC believer in your not-God. Posit God as some unanalyzable NOTHING, and now you're dealing in the TRANSCENDENT, like a mystic.
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex To my way of thinking, atheists, and agnostics for that matter, are all the same in the most fundamental way. They're denying that they intuit the Presence of God. Theists are all the same in that we affirm our intuition of God's Presence. But we go on then to rationalize, dogmatize, and politicize that intuition in many different ways. And this disasterous mistake occurs the moment a theist posits God as anything other than the metaphysical Absolute. I'm keen on avoiding that.
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex This stance is easily destroyed. How would you express your disbelief by way of logical terminology? You must posit it as the term not-God. So now you have something in which you DO believe, this not-God concept. And if you LEVEL with yourself, you'll find in fact that you loyally REVERE and emotionally DEPEND on this not-God. And since your not-God is a concept that's liable to rational analysis, it's just as bogus as any other such concept of God: Creator, Controller of events.
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Yes, it's aimed at easily-targeted theists, so that atheists might re-inforce their doubt all too conveniently. I come in to bust up this whole game. And if you think about it, is it really a game worth playing? Who cares what STUPID people think of God? How does THEIR concept of God relate to Who He is on His Own terms? As for my raising the matter of consciousness, why SHOULDN'T a theist return the favor and make it as DIFFICULT as possible for an atheist to argue his point?
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex I lump all atheists together quite readily. And I pity theists who aren't like me.
: D
baltimark 1 year ago
I guess this might explain the Monkey Bars at the playground.lol
eoo8 1 year ago
@eoo8 ... and why I was always playing on them I guess. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Instant subscriber here, quality video! :)
MontegoFilms 1 year ago
@MontegoFilms Thanks MontegoFilms! The sub is appreciated.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
1. From their Intelligent Designer/Creator.
2. It would seem they are...at least on the face of it. Interesting, indeed. Doesn't prove or disprove anything. Why would The Personal Intelligence not give, what appears to be, characteristics of moral proclivity to a one of His design/creation The Chimp?
3. From answer two, there isn't cause for a response to #3.
The First Cause Devine I believe in can distribute moral qualities to anyone or thing He chooses w/o my permission.
gle1244 1 year ago
@gle1244 Thanks for answering the questions. You're the second; Baltimark gave some interesting ones for sure.
1. Let's remember that chimps love, share, etc... but also murder for land. Same designer?
2. See question number 1.
3. True... ; )
Another question is "why chimps"? We see this behavior only in our most common ancestors. This could be because they are easier to study, but the similarities along with what we know of DNA... a bit much to deny for me. Thanks G!
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex 2/2) Why bring up consciousness? How can we speculate on behavior, in some ULTIMATE way like RM is asking us to, without indeed knowing what is the ULTIMATE basis of bahavior, and that is consciousness? Or do you think that the nature of consciousness is irrelevant, simply because bringing the matter up is inconvenient? As for the rest, I'm reminding RM that there's more to religion than dogma. There's a mystical component. And no one can judge religion FAIRLY w/o EXPERIENCING it.
baltimark 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex 1/2) Hmmm. Well, honestly, like most questions atheists ask, these sound like ones you could answer for yourself. And I do hate sketching out obvious answers. RM is confused because he still can't distinguish between God such as He is on His Own terms, and the various ways in which we mere dunder-headed humans rationalize, dogmatize, and politicize Him. You probably can't either. But to those of us who can, the whole premise of this video is unnecessary.
baltimark 1 year ago
Hey! Love the new intro. The logo is fun. And excellent on substance.
Sorry I've been out of touch. Been CRAZY busy and watching videos only here and there. Things are calming down and I'm catching up. Great to hear from you and very well done.
ProfMTH 1 year ago 3
@ProfMTH Thanks Prof! High praise for sure, and it's much appreciated. Just checked out the Adam vid... and That. Was. Priceless. I just HAVE to know if this guy is a beyond-brilliant satirist who snuck into the WWJD stations unnoticed (er...?) and this is the result.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Interesting. Oddly I was reading Pale blue dot last night (yes I know it's about time), and left off just after the part where Carl was talking about the human centric universe, particularly the idea that we were the pinnacle in the animal community, and he mentions the similarity between us, and chimps. After putting the book down I couldn't decide which of us was the pinnacle. We bother exhibit the best of humanity, and the worst despite the fact that we know better.
TheNakedAtheist 1 year ago 2
Comment removed
TheNakedAtheist 1 year ago
*both
TheNakedAtheist 1 year ago
@TheNakedAtheist Very true... but I'd have a monkey as a pet. Humans... not nearly as much fun. Heh... Thanks for the comment NA.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
its easier 2 have a belief that man was created by a supernatural power than to assume chimps have no God. my belief in God has literary context to back, yours about chimps dont pray to God have . . . .
& ill re watch the video, answer the questions, then wait for ur scoffs
maurices07 1 year ago
@maurices07 Yes, many things that are easier to understand as a child are easier to believe as an adult as well.
But as a former pastor, I'm MORE than happy to delve into the "literary context" behind your deity if you so choose to open the conversation. We can start with Genesis 1, since you have started there already if you like. Let me know if you believe Genesis to be literal, figurative, or a mixture of both -- and why.
Oh, would you mind telling me who the Chimp God is too? Thanks.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@maurices07 Oh, sorry ... to complete your sentence...
... "about 50 years of research by, for one, Jane Goodall, who spent more time with chimps in one minute than Paul did with Jesus in one lifetime."
I'd say my literature on the subject is a tad larger than the bible... and peer-reviewed at that. Over 250,000 pages and counting. (Hint: That's a tad longer than The Bible, even if you used 24-point Helvetica for a font.)
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle ok so literature and bein around mammals makes u clairvoyant?? {-.^} astounding! so by the time im 50 i should be able to read mines. it all makes perfect sense. thats why people are wiser when they're older! hot diggity dog!!
maurices07 1 year ago
@maurices07 No, but it does make me a better speller. Or so I have noticed.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
yay we all came from chimps. lol @ the foolishness people believe, and then we assume chimps can or cant speak to God becuz.... we are humans and are omnipotent?? Science provides reasons but science also changes. 1 scientific theory from 3 months ago can be debated or no longer true becuz of some state change
such an awesome video. ill add this video when i need to be humored that we all are monkeys
maurices07 1 year ago
@maurices07 Yes we all came from an invisible man in the sky who needed both dirt and a rib to make man and woman. LoL indeed. I'll bookmark this post when I need to be reminded how poorly most creationists spell. Oh and answer the questions - why didn't you? Can't?
rationalmuscle 1 year ago 6
@maurices07 The theories in science change because they evolve with the finding & understanding of new knowledge. Oh and if you dont know the difference between monkeys & chimps dont bother commenting you ingnorant fool! Go back to the dark ages from whence you came!!!
JAX301209 1 year ago 2
@JAX301209 if u dont have nothin nice to say dont say nothin at all =[
maurices07 1 year ago
@maurices07 Most Creationists are soooo ignorant of ANY facts regarding evolution and yet you all criisise it. If you DONT know the FACTS of the subject DONT say anything at all!! The perpetuation of scientific ignorance is religious doctrinaire .
JAX301209 1 year ago
My church believes in ICID: Insane Creator, Idiot Design. God is a crazy Black Woman with Eight Tits.
ChurchOfKali66619 1 year ago
@ChurchOfKali66619 You TOO? I thought I was the only member...
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Chimps are perfect, just not perfect humans. Humans aren't perfect chimps either.
FHomeBrew 1 year ago
@FHomeBrew Fair 'nuff... but I think killing for land is a sign of imperfection. Kinda like Yahweh. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
I'd like to add, that chimps also judge/punish intentions, just as we do. In a famous experiment, two chimps sit in cages in front of each other. Between them is a board. Chimp B can pull the board to his cage with a string, chimp A can pull a string to make the board turn over.
Food is placed on the board in front of chimp A. If chimp B pulls the food to his cage, A pulls the string: both get nothing.
If the food is moved by a researcher, chimp A gets still angry, but doesn't pull the string.
smarthandsomeguy 1 year ago
@smarthandsomeguy That's in the book I cite as well (just added an hour ago to the description box.) Thanks!
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Excellent video. I just read yesterday about the killing of rival chimps over land expansion. My first thought was, oh how Human of them!
OnTheFritz602 1 year ago 2
@OnTheFritz602 Same here, hence the video. My 'exact' first thought was how gangs and warrior tribes, including the religious "death to infidels" groups are closer to apes in behavior than humans... which sucks, as I like apes. : )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago 3
@rationalmuscle
I like apes as well, and that recent reunion video with the British guy and the male lowland gorilla was nothing short of amazing.
I think the deniers of our similarities are quite terrified that it hits just a little too close to home.
The same people that rationalize, justify, and support the war in Iraq. :S
Oh, just chalk it up to *original sin*.
OnTheFritz602 1 year ago
@OnTheFritz602 Yep. The OS Argument (renamed once Microsoft hit the marketplace) is an oldie but a goodie.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago 2
@rationalmuscle
Absotively, posolutely, OS works for everything across the board!
OnTheFritz602 1 year ago
Quality Subscription!
SecularResponse 1 year ago
@SecularResponse Thanks SR!
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex John, I added the links/book refs I forgot in the original upload in the description box. There are many more of course, but these cover the issues I discussed. Thanks.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Great video!
danihc 1 year ago
@danihc Thanks danihc. I appreciate the feedback!
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Hi John, yes I did... I forgot the one re: punishment within tribes though, so I'll find that study again and post it. This was not a planned video, so the chips kinda fell where they may.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
Once again a beautifully made argument.
falchion49 1 year ago
@falchion49 Thanks falchion49... and I hope that eye is doing better. Surgery yet?
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle Last week. They took out everything apart from the retina and then replaced the damaged bits. I now have a lens that was made in a lab. Everything's a bit murky at the mo and the pain from the Trigeminal nerve waking up is almost awe inspiring. A case of "Hi, I'm the damaged 5th cranial nerve. You may remember me from pains such as this............ And this............" Still, the pain killers are fun lol.
falchion49 1 year ago
@falchion49 Damn bro... that sucks. As Butthead would say, "Cranial nerves suck." But it's cool that your best God-designed example is now made in the U.K. By intelligent design, of course. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle Amazing how such an intelligent design was so essential yet so fragile as to require (so far) seven hours of surgery to repair the damage done by a low speed BFT. Bet the 'Designer' never saw that one coming lol. You're right, the irony is of course now that I have an 'intelligently designed' eye. In this case by a surgical team backed up by thousands of hours of study and many years of scientific research. On the shoulders of giants is a nice place to be ;-)
falchion49 1 year ago
@falchion49 Hey now... let's not rag on a designer who designed the foreskin to be removed by a rather dull knife. That's QUALITY design we're talkin' bout...
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle This does mean that the 'designer', considering we're supposedly made in his/her/its image, is just as susceptible to haemorrhoids as the rest of us. Uneasy is the bottom that sits upon the throne...........
falchion49 1 year ago
I've been using points like this (without the current research) in discussions with theists for a while now. Thanks for putting this video together. It's nice to know I was on the right track.
jonwillis 1 year ago
@jonwillis You got it jon... thanks!
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Almost happy too. What's the fuzziest matter for you?
baltimark 1 year ago
my intro psychology prof was really into chimps and he always had chimp stories. one was about these chimps that were in captivity. the chimps formed 3 camps and there was a sort of hierarchy with the more popular chimps getting the best spot to live. one day the two lowers camps overthrew the #1 group and it was like a battle. they threw the dead bodies of fallen chimps over the fence. in the end there was a complete rearrangement of social status. turf wars!
1aaronaaron1 1 year ago
@1aaronaaron1 Trippy isn't it? Planet of the Apes echoes in my brain... but seriously, the behavior is really an uncanny parallel to human behavior in so many ways. As AaronRa would say, "We didn't come from apes... WE ARE APES."
I wonder why theists hate the idea that we "evolved" from apes (not accurate, but nonetheless) and are okay with coming from dirt. At least monkeys are funny. Dirt just sits there. Lousy entertainment. Heh.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
I think it should be quite obvious that they get their moral values from the Great God Yeti. Same as we do.
jancar2012 1 year ago
@jancar2012 Damn! Forget the Holy Yeti. I hear there's a pedophile prophet in the Middle East somewhere preaching about a false god, Sasquatch. Who knows what wars we have to look forward to now. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
do the chimpanzee follow some sort of a basic tradition/rituals cause the early neanderthals also used these rituals, traditions and cultural values and i though if the chimps show ANY signs of rituals (not the ussual scratch my back) thatd be awesome
Saber10inch 1 year ago
@Saber10inch Yes, they do. The most sophisticated tools that chimps use found to-date was discovered this year, I believe... or last. The article in on msnbc if you want to check it out (with links to the find of course.)
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle oh thanks for respoding btw its really impressive but i wonder how far behind the neanderthals or any humanoid are chimps?
Saber10inch 1 year ago
@Saber10inch Some groups of chimps like to take a bath, others don't. Some groups developed the art of hunting with spears. Watch "Ape genius" here on YT for some sweet jaw droppers.
smarthandsomeguy 1 year ago
@smarthandsomeguy Really? Wow... never thought of bathing... I'll check it out as well. Thanks for the vid tip.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
1/2) O my God. You're so almost hopelessly confused. First, regarding your edited-in point, how conveniently mechanistic. Do you know what is life? Do you know what is consciousness? Can we speculate until then? I don't know when science is going to discover spirits. Maybe only after the political Left asks it to. But that will amount to a much-needed revolution. As for your questions: 1) Nature. 2) For sure. But morality is just a practical matter, nothing Absolute. 3) I like this question. ...
baltimark 1 year ago
@baltimark 2/2) ... It'll make my fellow theists, typically rational and dogmatic, squirm. And they need to be made to squirm. This is how atheists are actually serving to ADVANCE religion! You're making certain positions untenable. And our letting them go will be a matter of spiritual good riddance. We can then proceed to intuit the Presence of the Divine more purely on His Terms, not ours. As for my answer: The only truly Godly behavior is the practice of holistic SURRENDER to the Absolute.
baltimark 1 year ago
@baltimark Science can't discover spirits silly, not even people that believe in them can tell us what they are in order that we can look for them.
I hear spirits are immaterial though, so they should be able to be found right next to nonexistence, which is also immaterial.
Godlessons 1 year ago
@Godlessons Depends on how you define spirits. But, believe me, if the Left needs for science to discover something, it'll do so at once, even if it's truly immaterial, like global warming. Amen?
: )
baltimark 1 year ago
@baltimark Get William James's dick out of your mouth.
Wes964 1 year ago
@Wes964 Yep, that sounds like a grad student's joke. Hurray, education!
Hey, you're that guy whose icon pamew correctly identified as an aye-aye in a pirate's hat. I like that kid. He's smart.
baltimark 1 year ago
@baltimark P.S. Your answers were quite good, btw, despite the pretense. And yes, this would make most theists squirm for sure. The rest makes we agnostics/atheists squirm, but that's the point of these videos - discussion often has that effect.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@baltimark You know me Mark... mechanistic (i.e. deductive) to a fault. I believe any answer to "what is life" will be equally so, as anything 'other' is conjecture, philosophy, or wild ranting. But I'm open to possibilities, hence the open invite for opinions -- unlike someone I know.
That said, per our last conversation, we have found a place to do it. This will happen next week as I'm still recovering. Keep you posted. Until then, keep it civil.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle It's true, I got zero patience with uninformed opinions. When I'm among combat veterans who are discussing war, I keep my mouth shut. For a similar reason, atheists should keep their mouths shut about God. To be an atheist is automatically not to know what ones talking about on that subject, which is ultimately an EXPERIENTIAL matter. No experience? No opinion allowed. Amen? As for conjecture, what sort of rational thinking ISN'T conjecture? ALL of it is based on assumptions.
baltimark 1 year ago
@baltimark Given your position of "it's all experiential", which has validity despite being totally subjective TO that person, what you're saying makes sense. However, you toss out theology for the most part in this context, which makes for a lot of confusion to say the 'least' on the matter. And not everyone who has the experience has the 'same' experience. I'd say experiences are based on assumptions as well, not the least of which is that it was truly God. We'll see...
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle Eh. I'm not feeling that's what my position is. I think what I'm saying is that every matter apart from God, as He defines Himself in His Own terms, is merely relative and practical. I'm just keen on DEFLATING rationalists. I'm tired of their pretending that a strong consensus equals Absolute Knowledge. Now, insofar as theology is just a lot of political wanking-off, especially as it's practiced by Liberal theologians, O you bet I throw it out, and then go wash my hands.
: D
baltimark 1 year ago
@baltimark Yep, balitmark! I couldn't agree more. Everyone has a right to express their assumptions. I do have an appreciation for that. But the Dawkinian approach that basically says, "you have mush for brains if you don't agree with my "good science" is an insult to all of the other brilliant minds that arrive at different sets of assumptions from theirs.
gle1244 1 year ago
@gle1244 What I'm saying is that ALL our brains are mush, compared with the Mind of God, and He doesn't deal in mere rationalism at all, a statement that horrifies Christian apologists even more than it does atheists.
: D
baltimark 1 year ago
3 questions for the reality-denying intellectually lazy ey. Expect vivid fantasy once you get their nuggets going though.
Schneboll 1 year ago
@Schneboll I liked Baltimark's answers, which have an odd fit with the conclusion to his answers... still, the answers were good. Awaiting more... doubt I'll get them. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle I read his answers. They just seem to state that we do not really know anything therefore i can make up whatever i like. "Ex nihilo nihil fit" out of nothing comes nothing, and thus he's answers seem to "fit". Cheers.
Schneboll 1 year ago
I love your videos keep up the good work. I just have one question though... Who was the ass that tied the monkey to the crucifix at 2:45? I mean yeah it was funny but that's messed up man why they got to crucify the monkey? Is that supposed to be monkey Jesus or just some common theif monkey? I mean someone took the picture so you know someone actually took the time to tie that monkey to the crucifix!
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
@CappitranoBellephant or they used photoshop
1aaronaaron1 1 year ago
@1aaronaaron1 Don't come at me with your witchcraft!!!
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
@CappitranoBellephant jesus would not permit kirk camron to live for his creation of the crockaduck using the methods of 'witchcraft' er i mean photoshop hahah
1aaronaaron1 1 year ago
@1aaronaaron1 Monkey Jesus definitely supports Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfot as the preach the truth about the importance of bananas! It's obvious that the monkey hand was made for holding babanas. Much like the how shape of feces is similar to that of the bananas so that we can easily hold it in our hands and throw it at our enemies! Praise white monkey Jesus!
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
@CappitranoBellephant the existence of monkey jesus can be proved by showing that every zoo has a zoo keeper
1aaronaaron1 1 year ago
@1aaronaaron1 Ha ha ha that was a good one!
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
@CappitranoBellephant Unfortunately that was not photoshop -- and yeah, I debated using that image as I love monkeys. Even had one as a pet when I was a kid. But the monkey wasn't hurt, or so I would imagine as Trent would have been prosecuted. That's from Nine Inch Nail's video, "Closer." It's a bit misplaced as it's shocking, which wasn't the point. Thanks for pointing it out... may edit that bit. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle I know it's no big deal when I saw it I laughed but a part of me still feels bad for the monkey because he's being tied down and doesn't really know why. Glad to hear he was ok though :-)
CappitranoBellephant 1 year ago
Indeed a really nice angle to look at this topic!
I'd like to read the answers to your questions from some people! Gonna stay tuned to this one!
SulkYoO 1 year ago
@SulkYoO Thanks SulkYoO... hopefully I'll get some insightful answers from some theists other than "Same designer."
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
very good point, never taken this angle before or seen it taken. i've always used the pre bible man as an example, but this is even better.
phead80 1 year ago
@phead80 thanks phead80. I think a lot of believers do not believe in a pre-bible man, so this indeed makes a more compelling argument. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle well, i mean like the example of the jews etc and the rest of the world pre ten commandments. not killing and stealing wasn't a new idea when moses descended with the tablets, ya know?
but you're absolutely correct, this is a right in there face modern day example, the only think i could think of would be they'd say, "well god made them that way..."
been hearing that answer for just about anything and everything these days to get out of something that stumps them.
phead80 1 year ago
@phead80 Ah... gotcha. The "God made them that way" has a problem when you consider the killing for land issue. But then again, God made Israel a killing machine for land, so... yeah. Guess he likes turf wars. ; )
rationalmuscle 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle haha no shit. the atrocities he's had committed over land are horrible. but ya, what's so frustrating is they seem to have an answer for everything, even if it doesn't make sense to you or properly answer your question, it's good enough for them and it makes them feel smug, so that's all that matters.
phead80 1 year ago
@rationalmuscle Which is unfortuante as there is compelling evidence for a Pre-Bible God. There's even evidence for a pre Bible God's wife. Which technically means that when JC was conceived that the God of the Bible was actually playing around.
falchion49 1 year ago
@falchion49 I've read legends of Ra and El, both of whom had either plurality or wives. Of course this is nothing new to the Greeks... all their gods loved to fuck. I think that's important in a deity.
Joking aside, re: Yahweh. I often ask believers if Mary was raped by God, or if God impregnated her, say, in her sleep (the ruffie technique)... or if it was by consent, making her a God-whore. Either way, Mary is a bit of the iffy side if you ask me.
rationalmuscle 1 year ago