Defence vs Muay Thai Clinch + other clinches (part one)

[AureliusGuitar]

How did she die? What was/were her illness/es?

[martialtaichi]

@AureliusGuitar

Hi there, Joanna died peacefully after battling idiopathic parenchymal lung disease / pulmonary fibrosis for many years.

[martialtaichi]

I'm sorry to have to announce that Joanna died on Sunday 6th March. I'm not really in a place where I can answer your martial arts queries but I shall be leaving the comments option open.

Please remember Joanna fondly as I do. Her passing is a great loss.

Julie, Martial Training Association

[Griffinfish1]

Try this in real and die for real. Bad shame for you and for tai qi that you rip off. You not tai qi.

[randyds5]

I have critisized some of your videos in the past, but I actually like this one. Especially with the head control movements off the elbow. Im opinionated but respectful. People will not always agree, but i do think you are a capable martial artist. Keep learning and sharing. :D

[remshot1998]

i take judo and muay thai, and i love them both. i am not hear to argue about how effective this moves will be. that is a waste on youtube. i have watched a few of this videos, and i was wondering the poor woman who keeps getting beat up in all the videos. i'm used a lot of a demo partner, and i know her pain. 

[martialtaichi]

@remshot1998

we started knocking stuff in for demos because people used to complain we were too gentle

[remshot1998]

@martialtaichi people will complain no matter what.i always love when people compare mma,or ring sports as the best test if a martial art works or not.i even hear it with judo,how our throws only work with a gi,or it is just a sport.first,all judo throws can do done without a gi. second, if i change my throw just a little, it goes from a sport throw to throwing someone on their head.i guess my point, is people just dont get it,and i understand yur partners pain,but i'm sure she loves, like i do

[noksoocao]

This is actually a pretty good vid. It seems that some people don't get that is is illustrative of principle and theory. Clearly the "uke" is not resisting and there is no force used by either person. I have trained in muay thai, silat, kali, yang style tai chi, yi chuan, akijujitsu, i was a wrestler.... i can see what this woman is talking about.

[haruskyy]

Very useful info thank you!



[Thecrazyjords]

eeeessshhh.... deeply unconvincing.

[DonMack279]

Not to disrespect the video creator, but as others have pointed out, that is NOT a real Thai clinch. Everything about how its executed in this video is wrong. I wouldn't even know where to start. Some of the techniques used might work extremely well on someone that's trying to grab you in general, but a true Thai clinch is much harder to break.

[martialtaichi]

The thing is it isn't a real anything - it's a slow demo of principles and angles. Whether the attacker comes in with one or two hands is irrelevant - you get to the outside guard position and intercept. If you fail there are back up plans shown, but you aim to intercept as early as possible. All is not lost though even when the clinch is on because you can gouge eyes, poke windpipes etc. in a self defense situation which is precisely all I'm trying to show and say so clearly at the beginning.

[Unknown3129]

To anyone watching this do not listen to them. If you are in a situation with a muay thai fighter, this is not what you will see if they go for a clinch. The would NEVER reach in with both hands at once. Thus making this video useless. Sorry

[martialtaichi]

All these comments that won't hear a word said against muay thai get pretty boring. It makes no difference if they come in with one hand or both and as for what muay thai fighters would "never" do - this is based on muay thai instruction by muay thai teachers so... others may disagree with you.

[Unknown3129]

trust me never, it makes no sense to go in with two hands....you leave your head wide open to upercuts. and if you learned this from a muay thai instrutor i'd be willing to bet you learned it wrong rather than them teaching it wrong....thats how sure i am that no muay thai figher would never do that.....and tell me how it doesnt matter if someone came in with one or two hands...your defense is soley based on trapping both of the arms.......

[martialtaichi]

So many assumptions based on what? Look - I've soundly thrashed people from all kinds of martial backgrounds, including muay thai, wing chun, escrima, kickboxing, karate, taiji, xingyi, bagua, African boxing, plus numerous street-fighters - in truth I've had more serious fights than you could imagine and won every one. I don't lose and I don't learn things wrong. In the technique you're arguing about, you get to the outside of the active arm if only one is active - the positioning still works.

[Unknown3129]

very true didnt think of going to the outside....i'm not doubting your skill im just saying that what your showing should not be named a muay thai clinch.....when did i ever say muay thai was the best martial art in the world.....trust me i know its not fighting, fights will almost always end up on the ground... didn't mean to insult you, but by saying that is a muay thai clinch you are insulting me

[martialtaichi]

I'm sorry you feel insulted. Now let's agree to disagree. I was asked to show on video how I might respond to a muay thai clinch. Clips can only be 10 minutes long and no martial video is going to be able to show everything - there are always more things to say... It's illustrative of a fairly generic tactical principle. Hopefully some viewers might see something useful in the positioning aspect that they can use in whatever art they practice. Take care :)

[martialtaichi]

People have completely unrealistic expectations of muay thai as some kind of invincible and super-deadly martial art, but if that were truly the case, muay thai fighters would die all over the place and they don't. It is just a sport - designed to last a while so people can gamble on the matches. It is not the be all and end all of fighting - not real fighting. Muay thai people don't win all the MMA / UFC fights either.

You can't assume muay thai will defeat everyone - it is a matter of timing.

[NorthernDragonsSifu]

Useful video, but I have also to disagree that one hand makes no difference. I teach martial Chen Taiji, Kung Fu and San Da kickboxing and so teach this clinch often - always leading with one hand. Now the point is that the initial defence will work fine with a right arm lead. But as most people are right handed and clinch is most normally initiated with the left arm. Now here the effectivness is definately compromised.

[NorthernDragonsSifu]

Not only will you have much less ability to affect the attackers balance, but will be open to further attackes form the right hand. Thats not to say the defence is useless, still better than being in the hold, but to point out that it does matter if they come with one hand.

[martialtaichi]

@NorthernDragonsSifu

I can't be bothered to argue...

[MicroMacroUniverse]

@martialtaichi

aaaa absolutely not muay thai,and absolutely bad clinching.

Ok in real life with a NON trained guy that techniques will work....

But a muay thai trained fighter will clinch you and project you to the ground easily.

If the hands arrives from the low,for example? :)

Clinching is not that easy.

Good video,however.

Sorry for my english

[martialtaichi]

@MicroMacroUniverse

aaaa but a Kung Fu trained fighter will bash you easily ;D

[MicroMacroUniverse]

@martialtaichi

Obvious,i'm not a muay thai fighter :D

[noksoocao]

@NorthernDragonsSifu

As for principles, it doesn't really matter if some one uses one hand or not. U flow with what comes to you and the principles remain the same

[stevieb8006]

TAKE WHATS USEFUL FOR YOU!!! What part of that do people not understand? If you dont like it, find an art that is suitable for you instead of criticising. Keep up the good work.

[soundman420]

ghost is just a dumb brainwashed pig dont mind him. what you need to do is first learn how to initiate a clinch properly, then you can learn to defend against it. the thai boxer might for example throw a quick 1 2 to distract you, then with his lead hand "hammer" it into the clinch position and then follow up with the other one. no one goes straight for the clinch with both hands like that. if you study muay thai i think youll see their counters are the simplest and most effective you can do.

[martialtaichi]

Thanks - I don't mind constructive critical comments.

[martialtaichi]

Anyway, I must be pitching my martial arts right, because I get to teach a bunch of pretty decent, thoughtful, intelligent, cheerful, benevolent young men. I don't want to attract the meatheads - aggressive types with poor social skills & low morals. I don't want to attract the hippies, would-be sages or mystics either. As it is, I just get decent guys who might need to protect themselves & their families. They're smart enough to judge an art by coming and trying out what we teach.

[martialtaichi]

And just one more point - on the estate where I grew up no one would have got away with joining the police - they'd have been seen as a traitor because most of the people I knew made their money from dealing drugs and theft. So sadly, in this case, your being a police officer is one trump card you can't play.

[martialtaichi]

3) cont... I think this zeitgeist of cynicism, rather than being based on hard life experiences is very often an affectation people put on when they have NOT had much experience of the harshness and darkness of real street life. So they have to pretend, with dark sounding pseudonyms and cynical posturing.

[martialtaichi]

3) He repeatedly accused me of lying, without any evidence or reason to assume that I am a liar. I have found that it is absolutely necessary to give other people the benefit of the doubt - in fact not doing so can get you into a lot of trouble - ordinary people can take great offense when their integrity is questioned without good reason and I'm one of those people.

[martialtaichi]

2) He questioned my background regarding police and self-defence. In reality, as well as teaching police & security personnel, I've been paid by West Yorkshire Police Community Safety Initiative + Calderdale, Bradford, Kirklees & Leeds City Councils, The Children's Society, and a number of other voluntary and community organisations to deliver self-defence courses and workshops for potentially vulnerable community groups.

[martialtaichi]

1) cont.... It is known scientifically that slow movement transfers directly to fast motor skill execution, which often proves useful during physical trauma and recovery such as strokes. Do your own research.

[martialtaichi]

I'd like to address some of the issues Ghostfuture raised in the comments he made that I chose to remove (due to excessive rudeness):

1) He questioned the scientific basis of slow motion training. The evidence for the use of such training is fairly extensive because it is accepted in medicine and physiotherapy rather than just sports or martial arts.

[Tianshanwarrior]

I do lke your videos, some ppl seem to treat combat sport with real life situations. I do practice the first one, but I am also aware that the mind set, the gear and rules of combat sports are limited. On the other hand combat sports are the closest one can get to try techniques in a safe way with a resisting oponent. However one has to practice techniques like the ones shown in the video to be ready for more lethal encounters. Keep it up

[Ghostfuture]

Sadly, this is the fallacy of thinking you know what other martial arts do, by doing failed verionsof their techniques yourself. This, I suppose, is a little similar to a boxing clinch, but a deliberate Thai clinch is nothing like this. t drags your head down violenty in to kneeing height so that the clnched head is now well below the attacker's. I've been clinched, n taught how to clinch, by the European thai champion, and it was nothing like this. Fantasy stuff I'm afraid.

[martialtaichi]

Ironically I was asked to make the film by someone who has fought the Israeli Muay Thai champion and he was grateful for my advice in this matter. I have sparred against martial artists from a number of styles including muay thai and other kickboxing styles and won soundly.

[Ghostfuture]

That doesn't matter - there's no credibility osmosis in martial arts, thankfully. Also, stories of what you've done, even if true, aren't the issue. I didn't say your techniques would fail, I simply pointed out the outstanding truth that this isn't a muay thai clinch. It's arrogant, untruthful and disrepsectful to muay thai to say that it is. It's some version of a head grab - NOT muay thai. Simply a matter of honesty.

[martialtaichi]

Let the viewer make up his own mind and do his own research :)

[Ghostfuture]

Again, that's just another way of being dshonest - it doesn't matter what any viewer thinks, or opines, unless they know what they're talking about. No matter what anyone thinks, this isn't anything like a Thai clinch except in the most superficial way. You're actually putting people in danger by encouraging them to think this is what a Thai boxer would do, and making them think they can counter it. Whatever people 'think' it still won't be a Thai clinch. Why lie? just call it 'a clinch'.

[martialtaichi]

An accusation of "lying" is no small accusation. I make it clear on the film that the purpose is to pre-empt the clinch before it has chance to go on and give options at every stage of failure, should the counter fail, slowly and step by step. What is so unrealistic about that? Do you doubt I could make my counters work and if so, why? I have escaped attempted clinches and strangle attempts in the ring and in real life. Do you wish to meet up and try it out if you ever come to Yorkshire?

[Ghostfuture]

I'm a serving police officer, darling - it's a crime even to solicit an illegal fight. Yes, I doubt you could make your counters work against any real thai boxer. You might get away with kneeing them in the balls - but you can't make this kind of counter work against thai because the 'attack' isn't a real muay thai clinch. I also doubt that you can do any of this at a fast, realistic pace - I think you hide behind 'slow movement' because you can't do it for real. Which again is lying.

[martialtaichi]

Darling huh? Lying? OK, you're wrong but who cares? I'll deal with your other comments below.

[martialtaichi]

I'd just like to add incidentally, that people who hide behind cliched "culture of death" pseudonyms such as "Ghostfuture" are in no position to start throwing around accusations of "hiding" at others - least of all, at those who teach martial arts in public full time and who are open on their profiles about their full names and locations.

[Ghostfuture]

Giving your name and location is nothing - in fact, it's what I'd ask you for if I was arresting you for inciting illegal fights. But, obviously, you couldn't advertise and make cash without saying who you are. The issue is simply one of honesty about 'is this a muay thai clinch'. It isn't, so, saying someone else is dishonest for not giving their name and number when the say it isn't is just another kind of lie - this time hiding your own lie behind what is generally called 'a smear'.

[martialtaichi]

It's getting boring - and Ghostfuture's comments went on and on getting more and more like a stuck record and increasingly abusive so I removed them and blocked him.

[MTAJulie]

Ghostfuture, this type of muay thai clinch is illustrated in lots of clips, including those by yodaz and also on national geographic's fight science programme, exactly as Joanna has demonstrated.

[Ghostfuture]

Really? No. There's the superficial look of it, but there's zero actual Thai execution - it's for dragging you about by the neck, left and right, kneeing and throwing you, lifting you and elbowing you. Here's the problem I think - watching fight science then thinkng that means you 'know' what the technique is. You can't serously expect people to think this kind of stuff is comparable to Thai. Try making this work against a real Thai boxer - and film that. No stories - get it filmed.

[Ghostfuture]

Oh - are you the other person in the video? Then now you're on the internet saying that what you've demonstrated is an example of 'Thai boxing clinch' ? That's just a lie. It's dishonest and disrepsectful. I think if you actually go to a Thai class, you'll get a sore wake up - but, you'll at least be doing honest training. like tai chi and all kinds of martial arts, but seriously, you can't really believe that you know how to do a Thai clinch? Nope. Not even close.

[martialtaichi]

Julie has been training for 13 years and has studied various styles including panantukan (filipino kickboxing). It is silly in the extreme for you to be taking such a judgemental exception to a slow, detailed demo. Arts such as Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua etc. practice at very slow speeds precisely so that body mechanics and timing can be picked apart meticulously and science has shown this to excellently afford transferable skills to full speed combat in a way that fast practice cannot impart.

[martialtaichi]

With that in mind the issue is one of trust. We live in a cynical times - if you won't trust us without what you'd consider proof, that's fine - don't watch our films - I don't make them for people like you. I make them for people who can discern technique through detailed martial training. I stopped being concerned about catering for the slavering and baying masses when someone wanted to see me break Julie's nose. Combat sport is watered down martial training - fine - we each go our own way.

[Ghostfuture]

So muay thai is a 'watered down' version of this ballet-dance style fantasy training you do? I've practiced muay thai for a long time, love - you are incredibly disrespectful to an art that would cut through your 'slow movement' fakery like a hot knife through butter.

[Ghostfuture]

Yeah? What proof would that be? Where is it? In all the great tai chi fighters, like you? And what does Julie know about thai boxing if that's her background? Answer - zero. So, just more lies.

[martialtaichi]

"Love" now is it too? "Darling" and "love". Look "sweetie" - I've fought gangsters that would make you afraid to turn off the light - that's the world I grew up in. I'm not hiding behind anything because I don't have to - no one in the world scares me any more because I've already fended off some of the most deranged and dangerous people I'm ever likely to face - people who are now serving prison sentences for decapitating my friends.

[martialtaichi]

The TRUTH is that neither you nor anyone else who might want to criticize is coming from a position of knowledge until you have trained under me. I've taught police officer ex-soldiers and other ex-soldiers including an ex-marine - people who have seen active service. They were in no doubt about my ability to teach them "the most useful self-defence and restraint techniques they'd ever come across" because they felt me throw them from one side of a room to the other and felt my strikes.

[martialtaichi]

Now I don't do auditions or attempt to prove myself because I object in principle to our cynical cultural norms. The phrase "no investigation, no right to speak" rings true. You will no doubt never wish to learn anything from me without first seeing "proof" and that is fine by me. Those who come to our school see and learn and I'm happy with that. Now I will block your further comments because I don't like being patronised ("love") and because I don't value your totally unfounded opinions.

[martialtaichi]

Ironically, most of the people who have dropped out of our classes have done so because our training "went too far" or was "too full on" or "too brutal" in some way, training as we do full contact, in range and on target without protection or mats. That's why I describe combat sports as watered down. I'm sorry if that offends anyone but any restrictions = watered down training.

[martialtaichi]

And for the sake of completeness I will pick up on the point you made re: Julie's training background. Filipino kickboxing is not the same as Muay Thai - you are correct there, but it is nonetheless a full on kickboxing style that employs similar aggression and techniques. We both learned from Filipino style teachers who had learned Muay Thai as part of their training background, so their material was informed by Muay Thai practice. One of them also practiced and taught Muay Thai as it happens.

[martialtaichi]

Well he came back with more idiotic repetitive drivel so I removed it and now I'll have to change my settings to having to approve of comments before they're posted. Freedom of speech is an abused privilege these days. I have a better idea - we don't need opinions from uninformed idiots who like to talk tough from the safety of their cliched on line personas. "Ghostfuture"? Give me a break.

[Thunderhouse2]

Brilliant stuff here. This does make more sense than the second part (which I watched first, foolish me).

I would still open my big mouth about one thing: the grab and strike.

Again, unless you are superhumanly fast, you better deal with that incoming strike (no I don't mean blocking only) before you attempt that wrist lock thingie.

Innit?

[martialtaichi]

besides - if you mean the technique at the end, I also say you don't have to just do the wrist thing and I demo getting in first by striking to the head with a palm, elbow, back elbow, chop, knee combination and say you can put the wrist lock on at any time you want after that (that's assuming you still want to)