You'd have thought that Changeling could have put a call into the Jem'Hadar and said, "Hey guys, there's a runabout leaving in a few minutes with Odo onboard, so back the fuck off okay."
That's it? 150? I thought she would complete that with "THOUSAND".
150 ships is all it takes?
Gotta say, the Romulan captain got balls, going to engineering solo to fix his ship so it'll work to make his final stand. I can respect that.
Also, how long does it take them to lose all shields and get fragged? Ships fire cycles are much shorter than that. And a roundabout doesn't last that long...
@Foxstab "the Romulan captain got balls, going to engineering solo to fix his ship so it'll work to make his final stand. I can respect that." The Romulan captain was a actually a changeling spy and the combined cardassian romulan fleet was actually a few dozen ships strong
@AcomsRazor1776 Their combined fleet was a joke and yeah the Romulan captain was a changeling which was rather ironic I didn't get that at first because I don't remember that episode that well after so long (and all romulans look the same to me). So much for the TalShiar.
@bsgtrekfan88@bsgtrekfan88 The battle score and overall score for Generations was actually very good, ethereal even, and this episode was also given very good (re)use of it. I remember reading Dennis McCarthy having said that this score for Generations was one of his greatest achievements.
anyone els notice that the musical score starting after the commercial break during the battle sounds a hell of a lot like the battle music from "star trek - generations? Nice! Same Composer?
Kain's last words " Next time we should be more careful!! Another leader of a British Army , during the French and Indian war, said those exact words , just before he died . One Edwin Braddock - Battle of Duquene - near Pittsburgh-- Braddock Road
@lendial I think there are a few possible answers for not just warping away:
- They were still too close to the planet. Ships usually have to clear a certain range before warping, although this rule isn't always consistent in Star Trek.
- It looks like the warp engine was one of the first things that got attacked.
- They could have simply been followed, which would have made them even more vulnerable because they wouldn't have any maneuverability at warp.
@jstrahan2 He wasn't helping out in Engineering. Everyone in Engineering was dead Lovak (sp?) was going to take command of engineering so to keep power flowing to the weapons. That's how I see it.
It's a big no-no for a Captain to leave the bridge in a crisis. That's when I first became suspicious of Lovak. He should have sent Enabran "Information is my Business" Tain or somebody else knowledgeable in Engineering matters.
The Federation might have been outnumbered in terms of ships, but the battles consistently show Starfleet ships are qualitatively superior to what everyone else has, except perhaps the Dominion super battlecruisers. Also, the figure that the Breen had 20x as many ships as the Allies could have easily been a flawed estimate from bad intel. In war, you seldom know exactly how much the enemy has.
At the time...20 ships was considered pretty respectable. It's why the music goes and the Romulan dramatically pauses when stating 150 ships are attacking them. That number was unprecedented in Trek history by more than 3 times (Wolf 359 having 39 destroyed ships anyways).
@rubaiyat300 And the Dominion War saw those numbers and greater in pretty much every battle. 1,200 to 1,500 ships for the Dominion, and over 600 ships in one fleet for the Federation alone.
@GeneralKenobiSIYE I'm aware of the sizes used in SoA (and the 2800 ships in the wormhole). My point was that at the TIME of THIS ep, 20 ships was not a small fleet. It was all Picard could manage to block the Rom/Klingon border. Starfleet barely managed twice that to protect Earth against the Borg. It's why 150 Dom ships nearly blew the mind of a Tal Shiar officer. DS9's numbers were almost a steady retcon from TNG (you'll note chronologically they kept going up, 20, 150, 112, 600, 1254, 2800).
@rubaiyat300 Not many people seem to know this or even agree, but the writers, I forget which, hinted at the fact that the fleet numbered around 7,000 around the time of Wolf 359. It was a huge hit because the fleet was spread out over such a large area. After the Dominion made themselves known, they started pulling ships closer to Federation space and increasing ship construction, and stopping decommissioning. By the eve of the DW the fleet numbered over 8,000.
I've engaged in these debates DURING DS9's original run. I'm well aware of the backstory/writer's room talk and I'm fine with the numbers.They are just in contradiction to the tenor of all of TNG and early DS9 (when even by season 4, about 7 Fed ships were enough to force the Klingons from stopping their attack on DS9), and then the numbers kept getting bigger, obviously because FX advanced enough to actually show these ships, and for dramatic reasons upping the stakes.
@rubaiyat300 Those numbers are backed up by the size of the Dominion fleet and how much they said over and over they were out numbered by. The combined Dominion fleet was about 20 to 30k and even with the three major powers, the Allies were still out numbered. Idiots have gone around and said star fleet had over 30,000 ships alone. If that were true, the Federation could have faced the Dominion alone. I head the Battle of 001 had from 60 to 150 Federation star ships.
@GeneralKenobiSIYE General Martok mentioned having 1500 ships available post Breen energy dampener. That was mentioned as being outnumbered 20 times. So 30k is a rough estimate of the combined Breen, Dominion, Cardassian fleet, which is a perfectly reasonable number to be a real threat to the combined Fed/Rom/Klingon fleets. You'll note this happens late in season 7.
That's just another data for MY point. The numbers just kept getting bigger to make for more drama.
@GeneralKenobiSIYE Also that fleet from the Fed was made up of elements of two other fleets, no way to know exactly what that means to individual fleet sizes, though another mentioned fleet had 112, of which 98 were lost in a single engagement, so they varied greatly.
I never liked the Romulan Design of there ships, always thought it would be easy to fly through the open spaces and just start shooting the inside sections.
Firstly - when the Jem-hadar are firing their open shots - we see lots of explosions as they fire into empty space, I thought these guys were crack shots?
Secondly - the shield of alpha quadrant vessels are useless against Dominion weaponary until season 5 - yet they cry that the shields are losing power through this battle - yet the shields are useless for protection!
@ShoulderAB07 think they were useless when the defiant and the odyssey faught them first... Think It holds up in the this episode when the defiant is fixed and at 100%
Yet in season 5's finale when DS9's shields hold up against Dominion Weaponary - Weyon is surprised as clearly says that Federation shields have always been useless against Dominion weaponary.
I love how at 2:30 Garak realises they are fighting a hopeless cause and slips out of the battle to help odo without anyone noticing - a true spy if ever there was one
@Sovereign01 - I know! You see the Romulan D'Deridex warships shown in this video, being epic battleships in TNG and in the Dominion War, but why are they just sat by, letting the Jem'Hadar tear them a new one here? Well, some say their weapon arrays weren't designed to target such fast and agile ships as the Jem'Hadar fighters and some say their weapons were disabled by the Jem'Hadar fighters before they could return/open fire. It's a mystery for sure.
It's also why I can so easily say that Star Trek ships are the most powerful vessels in mainstream sci-fi. Most other universes hold the mighty Nuke as the final say, and the idea of destroying a planet is some unheard of level of firepower. A Galaxy Class can take multiple torpedo hits to the hull, yet any other universe Captain throws a fit at the mention of a single nuclear device.
They are not - simple statistic in weapons output shows otherwise. Also, the construction pattern dictates, that without shield / structural integrity / intertial dumpers most of Star Trek universe vessels are destroyed, despite armour, by single photon detonation in close proximity. And B5 and SG1 ships were capable of equal or superior feats.
@AnteyPL I have seen most every SG1 episode, no ship has ever had a nuclear device or equivalent detonated within, or near, and survived that I can recall. I can not say with certainty for B5 as I have not seen many episodes, however I have viewed many of the combat scenes on YouTube and the like, and at no time have I seen weapons of nuclear level power demonstrated. I of course, may be mistaken.
I love this episode, it is so useful when illustrating to people just how powerful the ships in Star Trek are. Because so many people just can't grasp the power held in 1.5 kilograms of matter mixing with 1.5 kilograms of antimatter, the maximum size of a Federation photon torpedo. Equivalent to ~64.442 megatons of TNT (assuming complete reaction). A more acceptable yield would likely be around 50 megatons. Phasers are tricky, as they use exotic particles to inflict most of their damage.
@Idazmi7 It's possible Romulan plasma torpedoes are that powerful, physically they are far larger and are comprised of exotic particles. Their effects on other ships are also more impressive than a photon torpedo. However, claiming nearly a hundred fold increase in destructive power based on visuals, is not reliable as we do not have any standard for the view of a nuclear detonation either from that distance from a planet, or of any know size.
@Synthmilk Megaton explosions would still be invisible at this range, as well as their effects. 52 megatons (Tsar Bomba) barely blew away 100 miles of crust, not enough to be seen here.
(Also, the 64.4 megaton thing is from the now-disproven TNG Tech Manual.)
@Idazmi7 The 64.4 megaton thing is a law of physics actually, that is the representation in tons of explosive force of the amount of energy released when 1.5 kilograms of matter and 1.5 kilograms of antimatter annihilate, assuming 100% annihilation. Also, the Russian test would most certainly have been visible, tropical storms are of similar size and are seen from orbit.
@Idazmi7 Was destroyed in the combined fire of both massed torpedo and beam weapons fire. By what do you find that 3.6 gigawatt figure to be too low? Phasers are comprised of fictional particles and energy with no equivalent in reality, it's entirely possible that 3.6 gigawatt's of energy in that form is sufficient to cause the damage we see. Where do you get the idea that the TNG Tech Manual is not Canon? It was created specifically by Mr. Roddenberry to be Canon.
"Phasers are a beam of photonic particles, similar to light, but they can be "phased" to interfere or interact with electromagnetic bonds."
Consistent with phasing weapons to pass through shields, disentegration without thermal effects... but no Nadion particles. (unless the "photonic particles" ARE nadions, which they may be) Also, the impact from phasers is very inconsistent with 3.6 megawatts.
@Idazmi7 I do not see how that earlier explanation is a contradiction to the TNG explanation that refers to Nadion particles. Of course a phaser impact will be inconsistent with an equivalently powered non-exotic energy discharge, they are fundamentally different.
@Idazmi7 Unless you have something from the show that tells us the maximum payload of a Federation Photon Torpedo is more than 1.5kg of matter and 1.5kg of anti-matter, the yield is indisputable as there is no mention of anything exotic happening, no made up particles etc. The Romulan and Cardassian torps, naturally, may be far more powerful due to larger payload in the case of the Cardassians, or exotic particle plasma in the case of the Romulans.
@Synthmilk Q-Who gives us the fact that the Ent D can kill itself- through maximium shields -with a torpedo at 6000km. 64.4 megatons isn't anywhere NEAR that powerful.
@Synthmilk Lol. It's a great TV show. I like it, and all the Trek series, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life checking things out to figure what is canon or not. Just appreciate it for what it is and don't spoil it for everyone else by listing every single tech flaw that you happen to find. It's a damn TV show, not the end of the world.
I wonder how this battle would've gone if they had as much intelligence as the Federation/Klingons did, the Federation seemed to quickly counter-act Dominion weapons with their shields.
If in one barrage they wiped out 30% of the planet's surface, that must be a small planet? I do wonder how the yield of torpedeos varies from one episode to another, in some they fire one and it penetrates the shields and blows up the chip, in others they bounce off. Its the same for shields, sometimes a blast knocks off 10%, then in the next episode 60%.
@danr239 My theory is that a starship's structural integrity field along with its navigational deflectors minimize the explosive effect of the torpedoes. What appears as a minimal explosion on a starship would actually be the equivalent to a thermonuclear blast or worse on an asteroid or planet. Again just my theory on the matter.
@danr239 Torpedoes can have different yields. In fact most torpedoes in Star Trek can be set to a specific yield anyway. Further more the amout of damage a ships shields can absorb is huge. The romulans are using plasma torpedoes but in context, a photon torpedo has a matter/antimatter warhead. The engergy yield of even a pretty small antimatter warhead would be greatly in excess of nuclear weapon. Also bear in mind most battles in star trek are portrayed as close range just to look cool ;)
When they realised it was a trap, why didn't they just cloak and leave? I mean, it takes what? 3-5 seconds to recloak, a few seconds more to warp? heh
This one video contains so many undertones. This was when Deep Space Nine realized what it could be. I absolutely loved the period when anyone could wind up being a Founder. The acting was still so campy but it felt like each actor was deep into their role and working to give their own character features and moments that stood out. Michael Eddington is on the bridge of the Defiant too! Talk about traitors in your midsts. This and Paradise Lost are jewels of the pre-Dominion War series.
Hmmm. In this battle it takes quite a fiew hits to destroy a romulan/cardassian ship. In later episodes, it takes just a couple of hits to destroy federation ships. If only they too had shields...
if those warbirds and the cardassians fired everything they had into the groups of jem'hadar in the beginning before they were all shot up, it would've been a good fight.
Instead they sat there letting themselves get pummeled....i mean, in the trek world, isn't the warbird supposed to be as powerful (if not more) than a galaxy? You would think that each wardbird should've been able to kill of at least a couple of those little fighters.
@dahoeb What I remember hearing was that the TNG warbirds were on par with a Galaxy-class starship in terms of firepower (A ship class the Defiants could still tear to pieces despite years of upgrading), but almost twice as large in terms of size. The Enterprise-D could fit within the apparatus of a Romulan Warbird with room to spare. There was a size comparison picture in The Art of Star Trek and the design team expressed regret that the show never really made the Warbirds' mass so apparent.
@AeronPeryton based on the way u said about those romulan warbirds i suppose they can take quite alot of punishment since they are the workhorse of the romulan navy like the galaxy class of starfleet so i guess the defiant might just lose if it take too much direct hits but i tink its quantum torpedos should add some pouch to those warbirds
@Badboy21thekiller If I said anything, I said that a Defiant-class ship would probably outgun a TNG-era Warbird. In addition to many things, it can fly circles around one. A Warbird's only advantage (save going against the Defiant herself) would be it's cloak.
@Badboy21thekiller Id say the excelsiors were the feds workhorse class, but they did start churning out the galaxys and defiants by the time the war rolled around.
@Quincy111hi hmm ic then i thought star fleet did like retro fit the ships to extend their service life prometheus class starships i thought they were very powerful class of starships too i really wonder why did the federation never even use them in the dominion war or it is still under testing as experimental ship only as there is a video showing the romulans capture it to study and starfleet send their best ships to retrive it
@dahoeb It was 150 Jem'hadar vs 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships. Even if each Alpha Quadrant ship took out a couple fighters, they were still hopelessly outnumbered. By this point in the series Alpha Quadrant weapons and shields were pretty useless against the Jem'hadar. And a Founder was technically in command of the fleet, so he might have had an effect on their performance too.
its a trap!!
Zagoreni02A 1 day ago
318 mark 215. Most favorite heading ever in star trek.
benjaminmullin96 1 week ago
I don't know why, but i think that the Romulans are one of my favorite species in Star Trek
horaciosi 1 week ago
@horaciosi me too
dudewithavideocamera 4 days ago
Comment removed
Caretaker82 2 weeks ago
all i can think of is benson or soap
alecamal 2 weeks ago
You'd have thought that Changeling could have put a call into the Jem'Hadar and said, "Hey guys, there's a runabout leaving in a few minutes with Odo onboard, so back the fuck off okay."
richiebabe24 2 weeks ago
Do you know why the Captain sits in the middle? So he doesn't have a console exploding in his face.
Foxstab 2 weeks ago
That's it? 150? I thought she would complete that with "THOUSAND".
150 ships is all it takes?
Gotta say, the Romulan captain got balls, going to engineering solo to fix his ship so it'll work to make his final stand. I can respect that.
Also, how long does it take them to lose all shields and get fragged? Ships fire cycles are much shorter than that. And a roundabout doesn't last that long...
Foxstab 2 weeks ago
@Foxstab "the Romulan captain got balls, going to engineering solo to fix his ship so it'll work to make his final stand. I can respect that." The Romulan captain was a actually a changeling spy and the combined cardassian romulan fleet was actually a few dozen ships strong
AcomsRazor1776 2 weeks ago
@AcomsRazor1776 Their combined fleet was a joke and yeah the Romulan captain was a changeling which was rather ironic I didn't get that at first because I don't remember that episode that well after so long (and all romulans look the same to me). So much for the TalShiar.
Foxstab 2 weeks ago
this show had a lot of battle scenes? I gotta watch this show...
tassadar32 2 weeks ago
@tassadar32 To be honest the fighting scenes increased a lot more during the dominion war.
MrSlaide 2 weeks ago
@MrSlaide yea, i was just looking up ds9. here I thought it was a boring ass show, but turns out it had lots of action. wtf was i thinking?
tassadar32 2 weeks ago
8:13 That, folks, is pawnage!
enterprise160 2 weeks ago
Good to know that the Romulans also have the exploding panels.
nightgaunt69 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nightgaunt69 "Good to know that the Romulans also have the exploding panels." Plasma based power induction, it's a bitch.
AcomsRazor1776 2 weeks ago
They should make the next series about someone besides the Federation. A Romulan series would be cool.
wd8084 3 weeks ago
@wd8084 With Denise Crosby reprising her role as Sela :>
martrootamm 3 weeks ago in playlist Trek
that was a great yet tragic battle
trickmastermonkey 4 weeks ago
@bsgtrekfan88 @bsgtrekfan88 The battle score and overall score for Generations was actually very good, ethereal even, and this episode was also given very good (re)use of it. I remember reading Dennis McCarthy having said that this score for Generations was one of his greatest achievements.
martrootamm 1 month ago
anyone els notice that the musical score starting after the commercial break during the battle sounds a hell of a lot like the battle music from "star trek - generations? Nice! Same Composer?
bsgtrekfan88 1 month ago 2
@bsgtrekfan88 Yes, Dennis McCarthy composed for both Generations and DS9, as well as Enterprise.
SGTBizarro 1 month ago 2
@SGTBizarro McCarthy is under rated.
ExplorerXIII 1 month ago
Kain's last words " Next time we should be more careful!! Another leader of a British Army , during the French and Indian war, said those exact words , just before he died . One Edwin Braddock - Battle of Duquene - near Pittsburgh-- Braddock Road
knightofmonarch 1 month ago
ok why didnt they just recloak
javaplant 1 month ago
@javaplant because the cloaking device is always the first thing to get damaged. :)
grayvickfilms 1 month ago
@javaplant Because the Dominion can see through them a lot of the time.
ExplorerXIII 1 month ago
They where surrrounded, out numbers 20-1. If they had clocked the Dominion would have fired randomly, there crazy enough to try!!!
OwenD0272 1 month ago
@OwenD0272
the dominion showed in episodes earlier, that they can detect cloaked ships (like the defiant)
giroditalia 3 weeks ago
@giroditalia
The only reason they detected the defiant is because it was putting out to much power for the clock to hide.
OwenD0272 3 weeks ago
why cant they just warp away?
lendial 1 month ago
@lendial I think there are a few possible answers for not just warping away:
- They were still too close to the planet. Ships usually have to clear a certain range before warping, although this rule isn't always consistent in Star Trek.
- It looks like the warp engine was one of the first things that got attacked.
- They could have simply been followed, which would have made them even more vulnerable because they wouldn't have any maneuverability at warp.
TazG2000 1 month ago
so much for them right!
snowjohn751975 1 month ago
just a thought "open a channel, i'm a founder dumb ass!!"
rsbandbj1 1 month ago 2
@rsbandbj1
That's what i was think, the Jem'Hadar have to obey a founder.
Woodchuckk 1 month ago
ITS A TWAP!
Dragonchaos666 2 months ago
Why didn't Garak just shoot the Changeling?
sadako24 2 months ago
@sadako24 Along a similar vein, why didn't he and Odo beam Tain aboard during their escape?
hlanus1 1 month ago
It's a trap!
42Cleve 2 months ago
Why is a Captain leaving the bridge during a desperate battle to "help out in Engineering"? That, in itself, is cause for suspicion.
jstrahan2 3 months ago
@jstrahan2 He wasn't helping out in Engineering. Everyone in Engineering was dead Lovak (sp?) was going to take command of engineering so to keep power flowing to the weapons. That's how I see it.
tedsasadsack 3 months ago
It's a big no-no for a Captain to leave the bridge in a crisis. That's when I first became suspicious of Lovak. He should have sent Enabran "Information is my Business" Tain or somebody else knowledgeable in Engineering matters.
jstrahan2 3 months ago
I was rooting for the Romulans in this one. This episode made me like the Romulans.
LivesForJihad 3 months ago
the ds9 series started slow but it turned out as the best series ever
seoulkidd1 3 months ago
The Federation might have been outnumbered in terms of ships, but the battles consistently show Starfleet ships are qualitatively superior to what everyone else has, except perhaps the Dominion super battlecruisers. Also, the figure that the Breen had 20x as many ships as the Allies could have easily been a flawed estimate from bad intel. In war, you seldom know exactly how much the enemy has.
funkervogt47 3 months ago
0:19 Base Delta Zero just got owned.
Idazmi7 3 months ago
At the time...20 ships was considered pretty respectable. It's why the music goes and the Romulan dramatically pauses when stating 150 ships are attacking them. That number was unprecedented in Trek history by more than 3 times (Wolf 359 having 39 destroyed ships anyways).
rubaiyat300 3 months ago
@rubaiyat300 And the Dominion War saw those numbers and greater in pretty much every battle. 1,200 to 1,500 ships for the Dominion, and over 600 ships in one fleet for the Federation alone.
GeneralKenobiSIYE 3 months ago
@GeneralKenobiSIYE I'm aware of the sizes used in SoA (and the 2800 ships in the wormhole). My point was that at the TIME of THIS ep, 20 ships was not a small fleet. It was all Picard could manage to block the Rom/Klingon border. Starfleet barely managed twice that to protect Earth against the Borg. It's why 150 Dom ships nearly blew the mind of a Tal Shiar officer. DS9's numbers were almost a steady retcon from TNG (you'll note chronologically they kept going up, 20, 150, 112, 600, 1254, 2800).
rubaiyat300 3 months ago
@rubaiyat300 Not many people seem to know this or even agree, but the writers, I forget which, hinted at the fact that the fleet numbered around 7,000 around the time of Wolf 359. It was a huge hit because the fleet was spread out over such a large area. After the Dominion made themselves known, they started pulling ships closer to Federation space and increasing ship construction, and stopping decommissioning. By the eve of the DW the fleet numbered over 8,000.
GeneralKenobiSIYE 3 months ago
Comment removed
rubaiyat300 3 months ago
I've engaged in these debates DURING DS9's original run. I'm well aware of the backstory/writer's room talk and I'm fine with the numbers.They are just in contradiction to the tenor of all of TNG and early DS9 (when even by season 4, about 7 Fed ships were enough to force the Klingons from stopping their attack on DS9), and then the numbers kept getting bigger, obviously because FX advanced enough to actually show these ships, and for dramatic reasons upping the stakes.
EDITED for tone.
rubaiyat300 3 months ago
@rubaiyat300 Those numbers are backed up by the size of the Dominion fleet and how much they said over and over they were out numbered by. The combined Dominion fleet was about 20 to 30k and even with the three major powers, the Allies were still out numbered. Idiots have gone around and said star fleet had over 30,000 ships alone. If that were true, the Federation could have faced the Dominion alone. I head the Battle of 001 had from 60 to 150 Federation star ships.
GeneralKenobiSIYE 3 months ago
@GeneralKenobiSIYE General Martok mentioned having 1500 ships available post Breen energy dampener. That was mentioned as being outnumbered 20 times. So 30k is a rough estimate of the combined Breen, Dominion, Cardassian fleet, which is a perfectly reasonable number to be a real threat to the combined Fed/Rom/Klingon fleets. You'll note this happens late in season 7.
That's just another data for MY point. The numbers just kept getting bigger to make for more drama.
rubaiyat300 3 months ago
@GeneralKenobiSIYE Also that fleet from the Fed was made up of elements of two other fleets, no way to know exactly what that means to individual fleet sizes, though another mentioned fleet had 112, of which 98 were lost in a single engagement, so they varied greatly.
rubaiyat300 3 months ago
Dax.... u sooo sexy
Matbloodguts 3 months ago
I love the Defiant.... tough little ship.
shadowedge69 3 months ago
tal shiar failed, obsidian order failed, but section 31 owned you
roush26 3 months ago 53
@roush26 Yes! Garak was quite right, the federation (and its Section 31) is insidious;-)
ladythalia 1 month ago
the battle music is heavily overused throughout the series
TheRealityJack 4 months ago
if only the defiant class had the ability to beam people onboard without lowering shields wow it would be fun
Badboy21thekiller 4 months ago
oh man the soverign class does not need to lower shields to beam survivors or away team back onboard
Badboy21thekiller 4 months ago
the first half of this is like star trek: romulan or star trek:cardassia or something!
sumbuddyx 4 months ago
7:07, wassup mother fuckers!
Zorn27 5 months ago
i always loved the pew pew pew pew pew of the defiant
boris377 5 months ago
2:36 - Time to GTFO...
StarFoxKitsune 5 months ago
I never liked the Romulan Design of there ships, always thought it would be easy to fly through the open spaces and just start shooting the inside sections.
StarFoxKitsune 5 months ago
@StarFoxKitsune
True, and that actually happened in one of the Star Trek games. The ship just flew straight through the open space and launched mines.
CynicalVision 5 months ago
Firstly - when the Jem-hadar are firing their open shots - we see lots of explosions as they fire into empty space, I thought these guys were crack shots?
Secondly - the shield of alpha quadrant vessels are useless against Dominion weaponary until season 5 - yet they cry that the shields are losing power through this battle - yet the shields are useless for protection!
Lousy attention to detail!
ShoulderAB07 6 months ago
@ShoulderAB07
How about the fact that NO ship of the mixed fleet fires at the jem har dar ^^
Makrokosmos 6 months ago
@ShoulderAB07 think they were useless when the defiant and the odyssey faught them first... Think It holds up in the this episode when the defiant is fixed and at 100%
traineespark 5 months ago
@traineespark
Yet in season 5's finale when DS9's shields hold up against Dominion Weaponary - Weyon is surprised as clearly says that Federation shields have always been useless against Dominion weaponary.
ShoulderAB07 5 months ago
I like how the romulan guy @ 1:36 blood is green. Happy they remembered.
Quincy111 6 months ago
Not much of a battle! You barely see anything of the fight itself - it's just all "plot" exposition.
frostek 6 months ago
@frostek That's Star Trek for you... most of the time.
Idazmi7 2 months ago
Why didn't they retreat when the fighters appeared?
fjccommish 6 months ago
I love how at 2:30 Garak realises they are fighting a hopeless cause and slips out of the battle to help odo without anyone noticing - a true spy if ever there was one
mojojojo511 6 months ago
The fall of the Tal'shiar and the Obsidian Order.
DBro65 6 months ago
The fall of the Tal'shiar.
DBro65 6 months ago
I can't understand why the Romulan and Cardassian ships don't fire back at the Jemhadar ships, not one of them fires a shot.
Sovereign01 6 months ago
@Sovereign01 - I know! You see the Romulan D'Deridex warships shown in this video, being epic battleships in TNG and in the Dominion War, but why are they just sat by, letting the Jem'Hadar tear them a new one here? Well, some say their weapon arrays weren't designed to target such fast and agile ships as the Jem'Hadar fighters and some say their weapons were disabled by the Jem'Hadar fighters before they could return/open fire. It's a mystery for sure.
MegaGrammarPolice 6 months ago
It's also why I can so easily say that Star Trek ships are the most powerful vessels in mainstream sci-fi. Most other universes hold the mighty Nuke as the final say, and the idea of destroying a planet is some unheard of level of firepower. A Galaxy Class can take multiple torpedo hits to the hull, yet any other universe Captain throws a fit at the mention of a single nuclear device.
Synthmilk 7 months ago 3
@Synthmilk
They are not - simple statistic in weapons output shows otherwise. Also, the construction pattern dictates, that without shield / structural integrity / intertial dumpers most of Star Trek universe vessels are destroyed, despite armour, by single photon detonation in close proximity. And B5 and SG1 ships were capable of equal or superior feats.
AnteyPL 6 months ago
@AnteyPL I have seen most every SG1 episode, no ship has ever had a nuclear device or equivalent detonated within, or near, and survived that I can recall. I can not say with certainty for B5 as I have not seen many episodes, however I have viewed many of the combat scenes on YouTube and the like, and at no time have I seen weapons of nuclear level power demonstrated. I of course, may be mistaken.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
I love this episode, it is so useful when illustrating to people just how powerful the ships in Star Trek are. Because so many people just can't grasp the power held in 1.5 kilograms of matter mixing with 1.5 kilograms of antimatter, the maximum size of a Federation photon torpedo. Equivalent to ~64.442 megatons of TNT (assuming complete reaction). A more acceptable yield would likely be around 50 megatons. Phasers are tricky, as they use exotic particles to inflict most of their damage.
Synthmilk 7 months ago
@Synthmilk Actually, this is 30 gigaton per shot, easy. Megatons wouldn't even be visible so far away.
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Idazmi7 It's possible Romulan plasma torpedoes are that powerful, physically they are far larger and are comprised of exotic particles. Their effects on other ships are also more impressive than a photon torpedo. However, claiming nearly a hundred fold increase in destructive power based on visuals, is not reliable as we do not have any standard for the view of a nuclear detonation either from that distance from a planet, or of any know size.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
@Synthmilk Megaton explosions would still be invisible at this range, as well as their effects. 52 megatons (Tsar Bomba) barely blew away 100 miles of crust, not enough to be seen here.
(Also, the 64.4 megaton thing is from the now-disproven TNG Tech Manual.)
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Idazmi7 The 64.4 megaton thing is a law of physics actually, that is the representation in tons of explosive force of the amount of energy released when 1.5 kilograms of matter and 1.5 kilograms of antimatter annihilate, assuming 100% annihilation. Also, the Russian test would most certainly have been visible, tropical storms are of similar size and are seen from orbit.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
@Synthmilk Thirty percent of the planet's crust?
Also, the 1.5 kilogram thing is from the same Tech Manual, wich also states 3.6 gigawatt phasers (two bolts of lightning. WAY too low.)
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Idazmi7 Was destroyed in the combined fire of both massed torpedo and beam weapons fire. By what do you find that 3.6 gigawatt figure to be too low? Phasers are comprised of fictional particles and energy with no equivalent in reality, it's entirely possible that 3.6 gigawatt's of energy in that form is sufficient to cause the damage we see. Where do you get the idea that the TNG Tech Manual is not Canon? It was created specifically by Mr. Roddenberry to be Canon.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
@Synthmilk Roddenberry created theStar Trek guide, which gives wildly different info.
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Idazmi7 If you mean the TNG Tech Manual by the "Star Trek guide" then I would like an example of a contradiction in the book.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
@Synthmilk Star Trek Guide is for TOS.
"Phasers are a beam of photonic particles, similar to light, but they can be "phased" to interfere or interact with electromagnetic bonds."
Consistent with phasing weapons to pass through shields, disentegration without thermal effects... but no Nadion particles. (unless the "photonic particles" ARE nadions, which they may be) Also, the impact from phasers is very inconsistent with 3.6 megawatts.
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Idazmi7 I do not see how that earlier explanation is a contradiction to the TNG explanation that refers to Nadion particles. Of course a phaser impact will be inconsistent with an equivalently powered non-exotic energy discharge, they are fundamentally different.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
@Synthmilk ...Okay, I was wrong about phasers, but I think I'm correct on the torpedoes.
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Idazmi7 Unless you have something from the show that tells us the maximum payload of a Federation Photon Torpedo is more than 1.5kg of matter and 1.5kg of anti-matter, the yield is indisputable as there is no mention of anything exotic happening, no made up particles etc. The Romulan and Cardassian torps, naturally, may be far more powerful due to larger payload in the case of the Cardassians, or exotic particle plasma in the case of the Romulans.
Synthmilk 2 months ago
@Synthmilk Q-Who gives us the fact that the Ent D can kill itself- through maximium shields -with a torpedo at 6000km. 64.4 megatons isn't anywhere NEAR that powerful.
Idazmi7 2 months ago
@Synthmilk Lol. It's a great TV show. I like it, and all the Trek series, but I'm not going to spend hours of my life checking things out to figure what is canon or not. Just appreciate it for what it is and don't spoil it for everyone else by listing every single tech flaw that you happen to find. It's a damn TV show, not the end of the world.
vyperprism1 2 months ago 7
I think we all need to take a second and focus on whats really important her... that being THE DEFIANT!! man i love that ship
Munkying 7 months ago
I wonder how this battle would've gone if they had as much intelligence as the Federation/Klingons did, the Federation seemed to quickly counter-act Dominion weapons with their shields.
philyburkhill1 7 months ago
One of DS9's finest gems.
Quincy111 7 months ago
Music is from Generations?
wotsitthing 7 months ago
Garak .. I Am Your FATHER .....Enabran Tain
Diggiti 7 months ago
Correct me if I´m wrong: but wasn´t Enabran Tain related to Garak???
KrautGoesWild 7 months ago
wow even the Romulan's have Cheap Consoles that explode after 3 shots to a ship
captainbly200 7 months ago
Is it me or are the Romulans the other one's with Fire Extinguishers in the whole Star Trek universe?
loszhor 7 months ago
how nice of the dominion to stop shooting the ship while odo had a chat with the changeling... so thoughtful...
123HMatty 7 months ago
@123HMatty
jem'hadar wouldn't fire on a ship if they knew a changeling was onboard
Shirazae 7 months ago
@Shirazae
my bad, they might fire on it (to maintain a charade) but they certainly wouldn't destroy it
Shirazae 7 months ago
If in one barrage they wiped out 30% of the planet's surface, that must be a small planet? I do wonder how the yield of torpedeos varies from one episode to another, in some they fire one and it penetrates the shields and blows up the chip, in others they bounce off. Its the same for shields, sometimes a blast knocks off 10%, then in the next episode 60%.
danr239 9 months ago
@danr239 My theory is that a starship's structural integrity field along with its navigational deflectors minimize the explosive effect of the torpedoes. What appears as a minimal explosion on a starship would actually be the equivalent to a thermonuclear blast or worse on an asteroid or planet. Again just my theory on the matter.
Fbueller129 7 months ago
@danr239 Torpedoes can have different yields. In fact most torpedoes in Star Trek can be set to a specific yield anyway. Further more the amout of damage a ships shields can absorb is huge. The romulans are using plasma torpedoes but in context, a photon torpedo has a matter/antimatter warhead. The engergy yield of even a pretty small antimatter warhead would be greatly in excess of nuclear weapon. Also bear in mind most battles in star trek are portrayed as close range just to look cool ;)
locutus9956 7 months ago
Where is Admiral Ackbar when you need him?
Selinja 9 months ago 38
@Selinja It's a trap!
JesusWithaSword718 6 months ago
@Selinja
IT'S A FAKE!
wait.....
Makrokosmos 6 months ago
@Selinja Screw Ackbar. Who needs the fish-guy when you got Sisko!
FerretJohn 4 months ago 15
@Selinja I was hearing Ackbar several times before Garat even said it hahahahaha
melanyebaggins 3 months ago
i think that's the only time I've seen them use aft torpedoes
Kahlessrocks 9 months ago
Defiant is so OP
BlueTeamPlayer 9 months ago
@BlueTeamPlayer
raptor797 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I ASKED YOU A QUESTION
zzxcvb98 9 months ago
Founder- Come with me Odo, I am your father.
Odo- 'suspicious look' That wasn't in the script..
Friendly Cardassian- IT'S A TRAP!!
FraggingBard 10 months ago 3
They always make the Warbird seem useless in these episodes. They were feared
ships in the Next Generation.
SSrvegtito 10 months ago
@SSrvegtito They seemed designed to take on larger Federation ships and not the small and fast fighters of the Dominion.
tbeller80 10 months ago
They always make the Warbird seem useless in these episodes.
SSrvegtito 10 months ago
1:28 would be a good place for another Admiral Ackbar line "Our cruisers can't repeal firepower at that magnitude!"
SwordsmanMercenary 10 months ago
When they realised it was a trap, why didn't they just cloak and leave? I mean, it takes what? 3-5 seconds to recloak, a few seconds more to warp? heh
GamingVideosdotTV 10 months ago 2
"It's a trap." @01:12
IT'S A TRAP!!!!
smcneal057 10 months ago
"It's a TRAP!"
SwordsmanMercenary 10 months ago
The Bridge of that romulan ship is AWESOME I'm sure a late friend of mine would agree.
michaelhviper 11 months ago
The Defiant should've just taken them all on considering how easily they destroyed those few Jem'Hadar ships!
willmott2k10 11 months ago
Look at that traitor Eddington.........Maquis....
juntao8375 11 months ago
I love this battle. Especially Sisko's lines.
"Attack Pattern Omega, full impulse, hold your fire till we're within 500 Meters!"
"We might get pretty singed at that range!"
"Not nearly as signed as there going to get, ENGAGE!"
He is and will always be my favorite Captain ever! (Even if this was before the epic beard!)
TerranGuy93 1 year ago
This one video contains so many undertones. This was when Deep Space Nine realized what it could be. I absolutely loved the period when anyone could wind up being a Founder. The acting was still so campy but it felt like each actor was deep into their role and working to give their own character features and moments that stood out. Michael Eddington is on the bridge of the Defiant too! Talk about traitors in your midsts. This and Paradise Lost are jewels of the pre-Dominion War series.
AeronPeryton 1 year ago 3
Hmmm. In this battle it takes quite a fiew hits to destroy a romulan/cardassian ship. In later episodes, it takes just a couple of hits to destroy federation ships. If only they too had shields...
DonVisric 1 year ago
"It's a trap." That is the one line in all of sci fi you don't want to hear.
smcneal057 1 year ago
@smcneal057 You noticed that too huh? Yeah Ackbar isn't the only one to have said that in a space battle
SwordsmanMercenary 10 months ago
Its a Trap!!!!!
hannibalbrown 1 year ago 2
it's a trap!!!!
Herbstgespenst 1 year ago 4
if those warbirds and the cardassians fired everything they had into the groups of jem'hadar in the beginning before they were all shot up, it would've been a good fight.
Instead they sat there letting themselves get pummeled....i mean, in the trek world, isn't the warbird supposed to be as powerful (if not more) than a galaxy? You would think that each wardbird should've been able to kill of at least a couple of those little fighters.
dahoeb 1 year ago 3
@dahoeb What I remember hearing was that the TNG warbirds were on par with a Galaxy-class starship in terms of firepower (A ship class the Defiants could still tear to pieces despite years of upgrading), but almost twice as large in terms of size. The Enterprise-D could fit within the apparatus of a Romulan Warbird with room to spare. There was a size comparison picture in The Art of Star Trek and the design team expressed regret that the show never really made the Warbirds' mass so apparent.
AeronPeryton 1 year ago
@AeronPeryton hi so u were saying even the defiant will lose to the war bird is it ?
Badboy21thekiller 6 months ago
@Badboy21thekiller How did you come to that conclusion?
AeronPeryton 6 months ago
@AeronPeryton based on the way u said about those romulan warbirds i suppose they can take quite alot of punishment since they are the workhorse of the romulan navy like the galaxy class of starfleet so i guess the defiant might just lose if it take too much direct hits but i tink its quantum torpedos should add some pouch to those warbirds
Badboy21thekiller 6 months ago
@Badboy21thekiller If I said anything, I said that a Defiant-class ship would probably outgun a TNG-era Warbird. In addition to many things, it can fly circles around one. A Warbird's only advantage (save going against the Defiant herself) would be it's cloak.
AeronPeryton 6 months ago
@Badboy21thekiller Id say the excelsiors were the feds workhorse class, but they did start churning out the galaxys and defiants by the time the war rolled around.
Quincy111 6 months ago
@Quincy111hi hmm ic then i thought star fleet did like retro fit the ships to extend their service life prometheus class starships i thought they were very powerful class of starships too i really wonder why did the federation never even use them in the dominion war or it is still under testing as experimental ship only as there is a video showing the romulans capture it to study and starfleet send their best ships to retrive it
Badboy21thekiller 6 months ago
@Badboy21thekiller
there was a prometheus class ship within the defense fleet, when voyager returns.
WhiteTiger1607 5 months ago
@dahoeb It was 150 Jem'hadar vs 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships. Even if each Alpha Quadrant ship took out a couple fighters, they were still hopelessly outnumbered. By this point in the series Alpha Quadrant weapons and shields were pretty useless against the Jem'hadar. And a Founder was technically in command of the fleet, so he might have had an effect on their performance too.
tbeller80 10 months ago 2
It's a trap!
hrobbins 1 year ago 12
Would have been much more dramatic if she would have counted the number of Jem'Hadar fighters ("Twenty, seventy-five...one hundred fifty.").
Fbueller129 1 year ago
I like how Garak said, "The planet is deserted!!!!!" such a dramatic flair/tone. Nicely done!
kentee1000 1 year ago
should of kept half the fleet cloaked when they attacked the planet
supermanfan62 1 year ago
@supermanfan62 The Dominion can detect cloaked vessels,watch the search part 1
JimbobHarrigan1984 1 year ago
@supermanfan62 Ships can't fire while cloaked.
LostMercenary99 1 year ago
star trek seems to be a roll play
there's alwasy just one site firing
.. makes a possibly good sci-fi series really really weak!
Napalmvieh 1 year ago
Too bad we don't see a sovereign on ds9 show
asuch874 1 year ago
Isn't the Romulan woman on the bridge of the war bird Robin Curtis, who played Savik in Star Trek 3?
mrtrek64 1 year ago
Man did you see how much of a beating the Romulan D'deridex class warbird took. i don't think a video game yet got how tough their hull is.
starknight97 1 year ago
@starknight97 YES no game will be able to duplicate that. the D'deridex class ships can take a pounding.
bank601 1 year ago
Why did the Dominion open fire on the runabout when they damn well knew there was a Founder in there? Didn't the Romulan Founder tell them?
greatcow95 1 year ago 4
@greatcow95 Apparently not.
vegeta002 1 year ago
@greatcow95 I reckon if they knew they would have beamed him out just before destroying the runabout.
PippinRally 1 year ago
IT"S A TRAPP!! -insert ackbar line here
matchbox2022 1 year ago 4
IT"S A TRAPP!!
matchbox2022 1 year ago 5
Where's the romulan, senator Vreenak when you need him. He would of examined the situation and proclaimed it to above all else: a faaaaake!
Haha check "it's a fake" video out lol
pierrepepi 1 year ago 4
@TheAwesomepenguin321
The Die Is Cast.
FBobby 1 year ago