Zeitun Evidence for the Supernatural

[1ricanfromcali]

Holograms weren't invented in the year 1917. Nor was it in 40AD when she first appeared.

[1ricanfromcali]

Jesus is a supernatural being and a human being, like the rest of us. We just forgot our way to the Lord. Mary is coming back to gather the last of His flock. Jump aboard!! Thank you God for giving Her to us. And Thank you Jesus for calling on us who have eyes and ears!!

[1ricanfromcali]

Read Revelations 12

[thikabouit]

The supernatural does exist, I for one have had two experiences in my life.The first one was were I felt the power of my lord an savior jesus Christ flow through my body,I felt like if i was almost floating an had a sence of inner peace so devine is hard to put into words.The second was the presence of pure evil that shook me to the bones.To me they are two oposing energies is really that simple,the darkness although powerfull fears the light,an has never understood an we ponds in their battle.+

[cformosa4]

is there any video evidence that isn't a photoshopped picture? I believe in god - i am a practicing catholic but i need more than a black and white picture.

[jdangiel]

@cformosa4 Let me help there. I read about these aparitions back in the early 1980's well before personal computers and way before any programs such as photoshop.  The photos were around then. I think I read about it in a book from the Fortean society. Regardless, they predate any such possibility.

[icimblind]

@REDWINGSRED36,

satan would appear as an angel of light and make the statement you just made. You are working against God and the gifts this video is providing to God's people. You will know them by their fruits.

[REDWINGSRED36]

Even Satan can appear as an Angel of light and preform miraculous wonders.. be careful and don't be deceived!

[EZlogic1]

@GawdOfThunder,

They didn't have the ability in 1962 to make a hologram of a woman standing in the air over a church nor making white doves fly at night in the shape of a cross. I am not sure they do it now? So can you substantiate your claim their buckwheat? Where's your proof for your theory that it is a reflection? All those people are idiots and you're the genius, right?

[icimblind]

@EZlogic1,

Exactly, his explanation is unsubstantiated, and would be more than magical! He probably believes the incorruptible bodies of the saints are a reflection of a hologram, no, they are the reflection of Christ!

[icimblind]

@GawdOfThunder,

Oh, the old "has there been any amputees healed" atheist argument. Ignore the testimony of the ppl that were healed. Your statement is some how supposed to disqualify all the other things that happened? Nothing is ever going to be good enough for you. White doves flying in a cross formation, eye witness of doctors, Muslims who have the opposite belief system. These apparitions averted a war in the region. We are all going to be accountable for what we did in this life, you 2.

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind So I was correct in assuming that no amputees were healed.... oh big surprise. It is the old atheist argument.... and it's a good one. Since of all the miracles that been said to of happened, no one ever grew a new limb. It should be a real easy trick for a god... right? Your right, the other things that happened can be disqualified. Nothing I saw or heard would lead me to believe anything supernatural occurred. All could be natural phenomenon or a hoax.... nothing magic here poof!

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind ... "There is no proof that an amputee Wasn't headed".... Wow! that's convincing argument :) Well, I guess if you want to believe in magic please go ahead. I'll stay rooted in reality if you don't mind.

[imtv]

Faith is like art, when you are and artist you don't have to explain what are you doing, you just simply do art according to your will, and it transcend words and explanations.

But there always will be critics (that are not artists themselves), they cannot share the same status then the artist, and they criticize what they see but cannot do.

[GawdOfThunder]

It's a reflection folks....

If something needs to be explained using a supernatural explanation, then obviously that explanation is wrong. It's the 21st century, we don't have to look to the supernatural to explain this or anything else.

[dingorex]

@GawdOfThunder

That's a false premise to exclude the supernatural. That the supernatural can be invoked anytime in a supposedly materialistic reductionist universe proves in the least that human thinking transcends the purely natural/material.

God is God in every century so your last statement is supposed to achieve what?---A scientistic superior attitude? It is 21 centuries A.D. The year of Our LORD.

[GawdOfThunder]

@dingorex Sorry, but there is no such thing as the supernatural. There are things we can explain and there are lots of things we can't explain. To say something has a supernatural cause is intellectually insulting. The gods of yesterday are the myths of today. In a few years the gods of today will also be considered myths by all. 

[icimblind]

@dingorex,

Doves don't fly at night, but having all white doves flying at night in the formation of a cross is miraculous! You have to also look at the fruit of these apparitions. War was averted, and millions were converted.

Closed minded people like G.O.T. prove there is a God and a devil. How do you get a reflection where there was never one before? If you're going to make that assumption, you're going to have present the facts that support it.

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind You are too funny. Yes I am closed minded to stupid arguments and ridiculous claims of supernatural.

[icimblind]

@GawdOfThunder,

Is that why you are are a evolutionist? LoL

That has got to be the most closed minded argument ever created! Where's the link?

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind Like I said, I am very close minded to idiots and their moronic claims of unsubstantiated supernatural phenomena.I thought this video was a joke at first, but I now realize....... there are a lot of fools out there.

[icimblind]

@GawdOfThunder,

Yeah you are right, you would be a moron if you're a closed minded idiot that can't substantiate your claim. Thousands of eye witnesses said the same thing. It was an image of a woman, not one person claimed it was a reflection, and these ppl were doctors, lawyers, muslims, etc. You're the only one making the claim it is a reflection, & U happen to be an atheist. What a surprise. White doves flying @ night in the formation of a cross, pictures, another reflection? lol

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind I still say it's a reflection or some other totally naturally occurring phenomena... or heaven forbid.... a hoax :) Honestly I have not a clue what it is. My best guess is a reflection of some sort. Leaping to the conclusion that it is supernatural in origin is childish..... ps. I used to raise doves & pigeons, and they will fly at night if spooked (and don't they the lady spooked them) ....

[icimblind]

@GawdOfThunder,

But what you are claiming is unsubstantiated. The video had thousands of people claiming the same thing over several years. There were many Muslims who saw her, and that would go against their beliefs. You said you raised doves. Can you get them to fly in a cross formation around the dome of a church several times and disappear? The photos are in another video. Not only that, ppl also had miraculous healings during this time. I bet there is a lot you don't know about this.

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind I've done a little reading on this apparition. It was seen by thousands like the video claims. However a couple of articles I read said during all the time the apparition was visible no one went to the roof of the church to check things out. Why would that be? It looks like it wasn't simply a reflection. It was more than likely a hoax. If I had to make the choice that it was something supernatural or a hoax..... I'm going with the hoax theory. Go with the simplest explanation.

[icimblind]

@Gaw,

Can you show me how this hoax could have happened considering the time and place in which it happened? It has to be repeatable. Also how they faked the doves flying in a cross formation, and the healings that took place. Remember, the Muslims marked the doors of the Christians so they could be executed, everyone behind those doors that needed healing got cured, blindness, or whatever. It ended up converting more people to becoming Christians.

You have to substantiate your claims.

[GawdOfThunder]

@icimblind No I can't prove it is a hoax. Egypt is an extremely superstitious country, so having thousands of people claiming a bunch of lights is supernatural is not very surprising. These claims happen all over the world. Just because we can not explain something does not mean it's supernatural. As for the miraculous healings you talk about, were any amputees healed? I bet not... Just like the faith-healing frauds, they have never once healed an amputee.

[humanrightslawyer]

@GawdOfThunder Then prove it wrong. I teach at a university and whenever one of my students uses the term "obviously" I cringe because it is a superflous filling word and often used by those who are merely convinced without prove. Prove that God does not exist. Can you do that? I cannot - because God is real. God exists and so does the Virgin Mary. People stopped loving God and simply deny him. But He does not stop loving us nor does he deny that we are His creation.

[GawdOfThunder]

@humanrightslawyer So....let me get this straight.... you teach at university and believe in the supernatural? Ouch...! I pity your poor students. Are you going to use the "prove god doesn't exist" argument? I again ask.... you teach at university?... really??? If you want to use that argument, then prove Zeus does not exist.... same difference my friend.

[EZlogic1]

@GawdOfThunder,

Okay, I really want to believe your garbage, so prove it??

A reflection? How do you come up with that Mr. 21st century??

I want to hear this one!

[GawdOfThunder]

@EZlogic1 Well, if you want to believe a reflection is something supernatural, go for it, and have fun with your delusion.

[EZlogic1]

@GawdOfThunder,

I never said I believed it was supernatural. Why do you think that?

I just challenged your claim that it was a reflection. So stop acting like a loser and telling everyone else they are making unsubstantial claims. It makes you look like hypocritical punk!

[GawdOfThunder]

@EZlogic1 Then what do believe it is? I just assumed you thought it was supernatural since you criticized me for saying it was a reflection or other natural phenomena. If you say "I don't know", I would have to agree. Viewing old graining footage hardly is evidence of anything. .

[6MemoryOfForever9]

hahaha omg they thought She was a Nun about to commit suiciiiide! hahahaaaaa hehe! this is so funny! :D The Apparition is beautiful! thank you!

[beyondDMC4]

WoW a couple of fuzzy low quality photographs of a blimp OMG I'M INSTANTLY CONVINCED

[tjttzcspplt]

Dingorex, all your philosophizing won't help you on the other side.  The only thing that will matter is how much love and good will is in your heart on the day of your death. Whatever else you come up with is mere speculation on your part, and, quite frankly, means zip.

[TemplarX2]

whatever this thing is a trick of light or something else; i naturally eliminate any supernatural possibility. There should be a rational explanation for this. How can those cunts automatically deduced a sphere is the Virgin Mary. Wouldn't a projector make more sense for a starter.

[AmmorMagnusDoctorEst]

@TemplarX2 any moderately intelligent person would try to find an alternate cause & that is exactly what the muslim government launched investigation wanted to find, however, after being unable to deduce the origin of what they initially called an elaborate hoax/ projection & having many doctors report & document many healings, they came up unsuccessful & the president of egypt abdul nasser himself said this was real 

[maitreyaisthebeast]

Tricks from the Devil to lead people away from God!

[Moe3214]

@maitreyaisthebeast You fundamentalists are pitiful, you give the devil to much credit, you really think he could pull this off for 4 years, why give the devil so much glory, eh? Read the book of St. Jude before you go calling things that you know nothing about demonic.

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@maitreyaisthebeast then the "devil" sucks so badly! These apparitions led many many muslims to Christ, and strengthened many Christians in the time of persecution....how could the devil be doing that? Jesus Himself said when they accused Him of healing people with the power of the devil, He said:" if a nation is divided, it cannot last"...which means the devil won't do smthg that would lead people to God, because that will make the devil weaker!!!

[WHO9ER]

the athiests will be proven wrong in a very short period of time... science will gel with faith very, very soon... the top physicits are on their way to validating string theory... which is we live in a multi-dimensional universe.. heaven is all around us but we only see 3 dimensions out of a possible 11 in this universe... give it 10 years and we will have a universal string formula.... repent and believe!

[6MemoryOfForever9]

@WHO9ER I never understood how there could be 11 dimensions!! imagine that! if Heaven is a real place! Hell as well! instead of a spiritual condition of the soul...but what does the Bible say about that? is the Heaven matter or state of the soul?

[divesdives]

thst's true

[stybarrow]

does the Catholic church need advertisement ? and if it did, would a "stunt" be the chosen means of declaring itself ? hardly. in reality, the Vatican goes to great lengths to critique such events. the fear of church leaders is a circus fraud which undermines the legitimacy of Jesus having died for our sins.

[cyouss09]

@emurikaw

mate people across the whole world came not just the egyptians it happened over 4 years

and it wasnt to show off !! she appeared for a reason!! u do not kknow about the prejuduces against the christians in egypt and all the sufferings that they have been through, she comes to warn us that are tough times ahead

[cyouss09]

till this day the same has been happening

i will give u an example she appearead a month or 2 ago ... look wat is happening now hey ... massacres against the christians

[hokhanh51]

don't you think vatican did it.

[jaysonvalentine]

The fact is a large number of people beyond witnessed a phenomenom involving some kind of electro-magnetic radiation. Maybe the apparitions naturally occurred, and there is no divine influence behind the event. Has anybody ever heard of earthquake lights?

[dingorex]

Earthquake lights look nothing like the Virgin Mary. There are several vids on Youtube of Earthquake lights to prove this point out. Anything but the Supernatural...some people love death too much.

[divesdives]

@dingorex you say earth lights are prooven phenomena? You are purblind.

[jedimasterham]

All these people are absolutely stupid for merely believing in this junk and assuming it is real.

[CopticChristian8]

Just to clarify, which people are absolutely stupid? The one million eye-witnesses? Or the people who believe the accounts of one million eye-witnesses? I'm curious to know what you think happened. Everyone had the same dream one night?

[jedimasterham]

First of all, the report that the apparition was seen by millions or even thousands of people is completely unsubstantiated. This is a fact. Secondly, the majority of the photos were taken by one person alone. What happened to the thousands of witnesses eh? No one had cameras?

Overall, what real evidence is there? Some badly taken photos taken by one person doesn't prove anything. On top of that, why assume it's supernatural? There is not one bit of proof that it is supernatural or even real.

[jedimasterham]

Also, quoting a source online, "No evidence has been provided that the photographs themselves have been investigated and authenticated by international experts as genuine and not the subject of photo manipulation. In fact, there is no indication as to whether original photographs and negatives are still in existence and available for inspection."

[sexyblondebabiez]

hey dickhead it was seen bye islams are they gonna lie bout something like this?

and the cops+gov+people couldnt find anything after the virgin appeared and while she was appearing they checked it out and the church and no1 was around and there was nothing apart from the virgin they still had no anwser to wat was going on simply it was the virgin loser

[sexyblondebabiez]

yeah dickhead its real have a look at da rest of em mate you pice of no frills pice of shit

[jedimasterham]

First, learn how to write legibly, second, learn how to think from multiple perspectives. While you would like to think it's mary the virgin, keep in mind that all the photos came from one source, a guy who has been proven to have concocted hoaxes before. Not only that, no physical evidence of mary (except for the picture, which is not exaclty credible evidence) means no evidence to support anyone's viewpoint. It's merely labeled "unknown" and left at that. Use your brain.

[He1set1me1free]

Dear. If those apparitions were not real, they would not have forced themselves in official newspapers, after the islamic gov. found it absolutley stupid to deny them. muslims and the islamic gov. would be more than pleased to deny them...but they couldn't deny reality.

[He1set1me1free]

The apparitions were frequent and various and Virgin Mary was moving, praying, standing, and bowing down at the cross, viewed by more than a million witness, Christians & non-Christians & by denominations which don't recognize saints ( Protest and evangeliacl churches)..yet all of them acknowledged her apparitions + healing miracles. The pics were analyzed through polarization tests.

[jedimasterham]

Ha, yeah right. One photographer produced all the pictures, and he was blamed for hoaxes..

[He1set1me1free]

Many of the witnesses who saw these apparitions are still alive today. And of course, don't forget the additional millions who saw the apparitions which followed the 1986-1970 apparitions. Again muslims would be pleased to deny these apparitions, but REALITY was stronger. If you want to know why there were few pics taken in 1968, i am glad to talk with you.

[jedimasterham]

Even if there were millions who saw it, which is absolutely unsubstantiated, where are all the pictures from them?? You'd think that at least a couple thousand or at least 100 or perhaps 10 would have taken pictures. Why did the only pictures come from one person, Wagih Rizk? Not only that, even if there was something there, there's no evidence to support a supernatural miracle or anything religious. It's called power of suggestion, and ignorant people buy into it.

[He1set1me1free]

Dear. we can talk as to why there are few pics. But let me get this first: if a group of people saw something, but only one caught it on camera, will you ignore the witnesses and the pics, because it was taken by one?! Second: what evidence do we look for in a supernatural? Isn't it: no. of witnesses, type of witnesses, the failure of any scientific explanation, and perhaps even healing miracles accompanying the miracle..all of which was the case with Virgin Mary's apparitions in 1968-1971 & 09

[jedimasterham]

@He1set1me1free, witnesses are often biased, prone to lying to get attention, and unattentive to what really happens in a situation.The're not always reliable. You take any "rational" person from the group that supposedly saw the apparition; if they say they definitely saw "Mary" then you'll know that they are faulty witnesses.

[He1set1me1free]

@jedimasterham : so again you are saying that even if we ask rational people who have no motive to believe in Virgin Mary and thus their minds can't play trick on them, and they witnessed to it, we should still not believe them!? Approaching something with a pre-determined mind that it can never happen and is never possible is equally biased and fraulty. Be careful coz if u say this thing can never be true coz my mind is set not to acknowledge it, then u r equally biased.

[jedimasterham]

Many people are prone to their pre-conceived notions and assumptions. To give an example, I know several who believe they saw UFOs, and they also believe that they were Alien vessels. However, I can refute their beliefs merely by saying, "Well perhaps it wasn't aliens." In short, testimonies from biased individuals don't count for much, because they have a tendency to account only from their own short sighted perspective. The virgin mary sightings are the same to me; belief but no evidence.

[He1set1me1free]

@jedimasterham I understand totally what u are saying. I am only asking u to pay attention that "pre-conception and assumptions" can also play tricks on those who don't believe in Virgin Mary by deceiving them into denying her apparitions although they are authentic. Remember that on the site, there were many who had opposite motives to deny Virgin Mary, but they could not in the face of the autheticity of these apparitions. Second: u still didn't define what r the evidences u look for.

[jedimasterham]

I would not encourage extreme bias, since it tends to cause people to jump to irrational conclusions about things. However, if you lose that bias, or pre-conceptions and assumptions, you cannot rightfully say that these pictures and events are actually authentic, because that would, in fact, be a biased and uncredible statement. Evidence just lacks.. By evidence, I mean circumstantial and direct evidence; there must be some physical trace of the events and also recorded traces during the events.

[stybarrow]

i am rational, and i believe. though i am not sure why "non-believers" devote time to a youtube video on Marian appearances in Egypt ? since there are no atheists (just get cancer or go to combat); you are either angry / hostile or seeking the truth.

[SpanishWrangler]

@He1set1me1free I have posted many videos about Zeitung and many of their withnesses have written to me telling me that they withness such Miracle.

[He1set1me1free]

Analyze them carefully: no incense can be produced in that quantity without the existance of 1000s of incensors + incense or fumes do not take a shape + the light was cut off the entire area + no projector and no solid surface to project on + it was not a still image or anything,..it was moving and performing healing miracles. It appeared out of no where. Glad to talk with you about that and more

[CopicOrthodoxAO]

keepsmyattention,

Don't tire yourself. Christ raised people from the dead and many still didn't believe. It's all in Romans I, confessing to be wise, they became fools. Rather than using logic, they invent things in their heads out of no where (actually, probably from Satan himself) and hold to them while ignoring what they could actually perceive with their eyes.

To all who say this is a hallucination: find a bus moving, say it's a hallucination, and step in front of it, then talk.

[keepsmyattention]

Those examples you gave me were NOT close, to this!! Millions SAW her, took pictures, and there's even a live 8mm video I am trying to retrieve, that has been misplaced, It lasted for months and 8 hrs a day????? How could THAT be mistaken???It was effectively checked into by the security there, that didni't beleive EITHER, and they couldn't find anything that would cause that! I mean the world is the way it is, because to ppl that believe like you, just take it as something evil.

[tevez32futbol]

Hail mary full of grace, god bless all the hard working commentaries.

[jedimasterham]

no, it is undeniable that 'something' happened. People see what they expect to see, or relate their experiences as such. Example. a woman is hungry, she prays, she then gets food, so she thinks her prayer brought it. In other words, simple superstition. What I'm saying is that those millions of people might be confused; perhaps it was a mass hysteria that escalated.. People think they see Mary on the church when really they're seeing what others tell them it is. People are Fallible.

[keepsmyattention]

yea, MILLIONS OF PPL ARE wrong! LOL! For 4 yrs and up to 8 hrs at a time?? YOu are not seeing this as what is is! And that is why the world is in the SHAPE it is! Good luck to you.

[jedimasterham]

I don't understand what you mean when you say "And that is why the world is in the SHAPE it is!"

Besides that, yes, millions of people are probably wrong. People used to think that the Sun, stars, and the Moon were gods at one point, not to mention that millions of people thought that Uri Geller bent spoons with his mind, and last of all, people still think there's a God running their lives. So definitely, millions of people can be wrong.

[gardenalien]

Shame you dont see the bigger picture and the meaning of all this. Im a scientist and i see everything science teaches me but, I see the bigger picture of all this, and why!! cos im a spiritual person, not religious, as their is a difference.

[gardenalien]

I agree with you, Humans are too consumed within themselves thinking that they are going to live for ever, that their important things are greed, money and power. Instead of been spiritual, loving to one another, sharring, carring for each other and the planet we live in, looking after this wonderful garden called Earth our temporary physical home. instead, we are self distractive, war makers to make money, full of hate and envy, and abusive. Leading this path, will bring our own distraction.

[gardenalien]

Yes I agree, that people are Fallible, but not when thousands and thousands of Fotos and films were taken of the vision and the event taking place was there for hours. Now tell me if we see somthing wonderful like a firework display or the new Super Airbus A380 jumbo jet landing, and their are hundreds of witness and the take pictures and films about it, tell me the difference of both events, if something is there, physically, is because its there and thats it.

[musics4Rsoul]

omg lol

[jedimasterham]

ha ha.. We should trust our own experience eh?? You mean that we should trust our fallible human mind? I agree that one should do this IF, and only if, they view such a thing with multiple view points, and not just their predisposed mindset. like this person underneath (5181maureen), this person is kind of dumb, because they've already singled out any possibility with what they WANT to believe. It's dumb because she/he cannot actually know, yet they accept it nonetheless.. (ie. ignorance)

[5181maureen]

Our Lady, is still appearing all over the world, en el todo el mundo, praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ! In many of the pictures she has her hands clasped in prayer. And that is what we need to do. Pray, repent, fast, go to church (she's on top of a Church), read scripture daily ... you know and so do I ... but do we do them? Mary has the same request of us the world over ... pray, fast, repent, return to my Son ... Our Lady always leads us to her Son, Christ Jesus. Amen.

[924142707]

Yes, if "Mary" is leading you away from Christ then run like hell. Mary is not God nor deserves the respect of God.

[5181maureen]

I never said "Our Lady" was leading me away from Christ. Quite the contrary. When they looked to her at the wedding feast of Cana regarding the wine she said, "...do what ever He tells you". The Blessed Virgin Mary is still saying that now, do whatever He tells you.

[adamantis4657]

The Most Holy Theotokos never leads away from Christ - what nonsense. We honor Her because She is the Mother of GOD and not the Mother of Paul. We honor God when we honor Her. Christ wants His Mother to be honored. He hates everyone who does not honor the Theotokos.

[TheDevilsAdvocate55]

Supernatural, i hate that word.

[jedimasterham]

The problem with this video in general, is that it warrants no evidence for either a supernatural(defying science and logic) or scientific occurance. Therefore, just being at this place while it is happening is not enough to justify a full belief that it is either supernatural or scientifically explainable. Same idea with UFOs, there's no point in setting down a belief that alien saucers exist when you don't have anything to justify that belief. That would be ignorant and illogical and stupid.

[jedimasterham]

your belief does not make it a miracle, so your belief is irrelevant. It's so stupid to assume that it's anything other than light, or to assert that it IS actually a virgin Mary or a woman. It's so primitive to even say so.

[dingorex]

Primitive? I think your little video mocking my God is childish rebellion. You have the juvenile belief system.

[jedimasterham]

My video is not to mock, but to allow Christians a parallel view of their own belief that they would not otherwise question or doubt. That's the point of flying spaghetti monster, to parallel that of "God." And anyway, don't be so sure that God exists, that is juvenile.

[dingorex]

You are not a Jedi yet, young Padawan. Give in to the Light side and know the true power of the Force.

[jedimasterham]

Logical Contradictions:

1. All-powerful and all-good God, yet evil exists. Absurd!

2. Timeless God vs Temporal God; a timeless god is devoid of time, whereas a temporal god needs time to exist. There can't be both.

3. An "omnipotent" God could do anything, like create a stone too heavy for him to carry. but if he creates something he cannot do, then it's a contradiction to his omnipotence.

4. Faith(conviction/belief/opinio­n)makes God real Only in imagination, not reality.

[dingorex]

Firstly: where did logic evolve from in your chemical universe?

Secondly: is this universe of matter all that is, was, or ever will be as Carl Sagan once claimed?

Thirdly: where did you get your idea of God from? how could animals who perceive only individually apparent phenomena ever get the idea of an immaterial,infinite,eternal,tr­anscendent, omnipotent,omnipresent,omnisci­ent Supreme Being?How could man ever think of something not embodied in matter if matter is all that ever existed?

[jedimasterham]

If you want to know about faith, it is defined as a belief/conviction/self-induced opinion without knowledge about something. I could have faith that Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything, but this does not make it real or true. The same goes for you faith in God. Like Flying Spaghetti Monster, your evidence for God is biased by your own opinion that relies on no evidence.

You also contradict yourself, if you cannot think of something not in matter, then you surely couldn't think of God

[dingorex]

As for your 4 logical contradictions I would ask whose logic? Yours personally? They are not contradiction from God's perspective.

Job 32:8, But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Do you have these paradoxes blocking your belief in God? Any good apologetics book or website will show that these are legitimate questions that can be reasoned through.

I would say my faith was a gift from God,and I was surprised by the evidences to back it up.

[jedimasterham]

actually, my logic of God comes from St. Thomas Aquinas, perhaps the most well known theist philosopher. He writes that it is empirically impossible for God to do such things as A) make a square circle, and B) to create a stone to heavy for him to lift.Also, as Aquinas writes about the idea that God can do the impossible, "the implications of this view seem catastrophic for any intelligent talk of God." Basically, If we don't presupose the laws of logic, then the conversation becomes absurd.

[dingorex]

'...the conversation becomes absurd.'

Exactly!

You must go to the Outer Rim. There you will find the logic you need to dismiss logic altogether. Once you dismiss said logic, return, and learn nothing from anyone who shows you historical(Biblical and extra-Biblical), archeological, miracles, fulfilled prophecies,evidence for design and purpose in Nature--biological and cosmological, philosophical (the stuff in Aquinas that speaks of Intellect being an introduction into Nature of the spiritual.

[dingorex]

When this evidence is shown tell the persons holding to such facts that they 'have NO evidence.' Swish,spit,repeat.

You see I have intelligent faith. I use logic to see the wonders of God in Nature and in His Son Jesus. To say there is no evidence is a delusion on your part. You can debate my evidence, but it still exists. Don't say we have no evidence. That is a lie. It's not intellectually honest. You have your beliefs about origins based on the same evidence I have.

[jedimasterham]

ok, I'll use the concept of a miracle. You have a mass sightings, yet cannot prove the logical connection between a rational means and the "miracle." However, even if it really IS a miracle(a violation of natural law), there's still NO way to know if it is actually a miracle because you cannot prove a connection between God and the miracle. It would A) be absurd to just accept that it is because it might not be a miracle, and B) ignorant because your conclusion is based on a self opinion.

[jedimasterham]

the problem with dismissing logic is that you CANNOT find evidence for miracles even if it were possible to have a miracle, because miracles violate logic and reasoning and natural connection. You say you have "intelligent faith," but by definition it IS a contradiction. I can explain philosophies that disprove the various Gods, from Anselm to Aquinas.. but, you'd still have "faith" because you want God to be true, and while your faith may validate your belief, it does not make God exist.

[dingorex]

Your choice to use

Aquinas to disprove Aquinas. But, the question remains, 'whence cometh the logic in the universe and the natural laws? (obviously absolute truths in your book as you believe nothing can violate the rules of the game NOT EVEN GOD Who created the rules in the first place. Could not Sartre change the rules in his plays or Milton Bradley the rules in Life??? Again, your choice, enjoy your days upon the accidental, without-purpose-Earth.

adieu.

[jedimasterham]

I'm sorry, but Sartre and Bradley are humans, they have no relevance to such an omnipotent God concept that you believe in, especially if you believe in God being able to violate natural laws (which humans cannot do). Frankly, it is not a matter of choice, it is a matter of what makes sense. Aquinas, realizing that if in time one is subject to time, admitted that if God exists in time, he is subject to time as we are. Because, a timeless God and a time God are a contradiction. Not about choice..

[dingorex]

It is for God.

Look you believe in absurdities and you probably didn't know it.

Matter is eternal.

But matter in our universe is 13.whatever billion years old.

It's also 4.6 billion years old.

Oh, yeah and its 70 million years old ,also.

How can eternal matter that always existed be 13 billion years old. Absurd.

[dingorex]

Whence 'thinking matter' that can grasp non material ideas like Numbers,Eternity,Infinity,alge­bra,mathematics,geometry? Why is man capable of thinking about Nothingness when we have never had a sense experience of this and other immaterial concepts? Something in man's intellect is spiritual to be able to transcend the material,sense-perceptible.

And anyway if there is no natural cause for existence/being in this universe why is it illogical to seek a non natural cause?

[jedimasterham]

Well, from what I can see, there IS a natural cause for this present moment existence, and that is a previous moment's momentum that project the next moment of existence. If this is the case(a is action and reaction), then one could easily assert that since the law of thermodynamic state that energy cannot be created or destroyed, then moments are beginningless. There's no need for a first cause or beginning though,its just a popular belief people use because it's relates their existence better.

[jedimasterham]

Here's my idea; Assume that interpretation of the bible is a personal way of thinking (no persons view of the bible is better or worse). Then assume that God exists, and that his creation (us and existence) is a part of him. Since the bible says we are supposed to embrace God to get into heaven, then logically, wouldn't embracing/loving humans the right act to get into heaven? I call this a safe bet. Not only does it guarantee heaven, but it guarantees a morally sound lifestyle.How's that sound?

[dingorex]

Smacks at Pascal's wager.Great for him,but the rest of Pensees was more convincing in that reasons for belief were laid out and the merits of the arguments could be judged worthy of belief or not. Tolstoy in The Kingdom of God is Within certainly found Pascal's wager and Pensees compelling.I think it's a weak reason to accept Christ as LORD-Saviour & His concomitant teachings as something to hang ones life upon.'Hedge your bets & escape Hell'is not good ground for spiritual growth imo.

[giska1000]

@dingorex can you just stfu and watch this video pls.....

[CornCake50]

Good point.

[k0smon]

jedimasterham; You seem to like to play with words. What happens when the irresistible force hits the immovable object? Nothing, because, BY DEFINITION, they cannot both exist at the same time. So with a square circle. A circle, by definition, is round. If we suppose that 'with God all things are possible', then that definition of God says He can lift any stone. Maybe St.Tom is confused, too.

[jedimasterham]

I don't know how I "play with words.. However, it seems like you're roleplaying. "the irresistable force hits the immovable object." First, where on earth do you get this equation, and how do either of these pertain to discussing the supernatural. It's just hogwash.

[k0smon]

jedi; 1. Good and evil exist side by side in our world, so why is this so absurd? The book Oahspe defines: not good and evil, but ripe and unripe.

2. You use the wrong meaning for 'timeless' God. It does not mean 'devoid of', it means 'unlimited by'. Time always exists; it is the distance between 2 occurrences.

3 As mentioned before, you are playing with the definition of words, and that's not logical.

4.Faith doesn't 'make' anything. God is real anyhow.

[jedimasterham]

A)good and evil exist in the dualistic perception that we use to engender the idea or morality.

B)timeless does mean "devoid of," and time itself is an illusion based on moon cycles. Moments exist, but not in the way we see them.

C) You are ignorant. first you say "faith doesn't make anything," then say that "God is real anyhow. Oh wow, so I guess that you've realllly discovered his existence just because you say he exists. In reality, you need to document something logically to prove it.

[dingorex]

Oops. I accidentally removed the comment that I missed biology class. I was gonna respond 'so biology shows no evidence of intricate design?' Whoever I deleted, I'm sorry:(

[HeavyMetalZombie]

No it doesn't actually. Look up "argument from poor design".

[ngarey]

lol this is almost as funny as people seeing the Virgin Mary in pieces of toast, its amazing what people can force themselves to belive.

[dingorex]

Just like the spontaneous generation of specified, functionally complex, multi-system integrated organs, e.g., eyes, monarch butterfly metamorphoses, circulatory and skeletal systems of birds etc. You're right people believe lots of counter-intuitive things to avoid intellectual and behavioral responsibility.

[HeavyMetalZombie]

You're right; it's more likely that the Virgin Mary has manifested herself in a piece of toast or that people can witness a miracle of god by staring into the sun than the process of evolution.

[number16aaron]

You said it

[Lucille125]

Don't stop.

[mikecampochiaro]

How much evidence do people need?

[HeavyMetalZombie]

This is your evidence for the existance of god? Pareidolia?

[dingorex]

Show me a picture of pareidolia? Does it really exist? Show me. Show me empirically.

Do you believe in things not embodied in matter?

[HeavyMetalZombie]

I don't believe in the supernatural if that's what you're asking me. Pareidolia refers to seeing human shapes and faces in non-human objects. In all of the pictures I've seen of this alleged apparition all I've seen were white blobs and doctored photos showing what people claim they saw in greater detail. Wishful thinking + pareidolia = self-delusion.

[dingorex]

Quit using all those immaterial concepts not found self existing in the natural.

[HeavyMetalZombie]

Ahh, pareidolia doesn't exist in nature but flying white Virgin Mary blobs do?

[dingorex]

Loggerhead...must use deflection...fight...mind....t­hinking...arghhhhhhh!

[HeavyMetalZombie]

Ok then.

[redheadfo847]

zombie just got owned

[HeavyMetalZombie]

Owned how? Because he was able to use the most logical fallacies in a single sentence? At no point in time did he ever refute anything I had to say. If he wants to argue that pareidolia does not existr in nature than he needs to take a few more psychology classes.

Definition of pareidolia: The term pareidolia describes a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant.

[redheadfo847]

sure. I am not expert on this apparition. If you would like to show your wit in an argument, I would suggest you find a way to disprove the Fatima, Portugal oct. 13 1917 apparition, seen by 70,000 and repoted by atheist newspapers. The only response(despite the fact that it was predicted months before by a child who was only 12) is that it was a dust storm from the middle east.

[HeavyMetalZombie]

It's far from the only response and being mentioned in an "Atheist" newspaper doesn't mean much of anything.

But if I had to take a crack at it...I would suggest perhaps because they were STARING INTO THE SUN when they saw it. And the children who "predicted" this occurance were all exhibiting bizarre behavior suggesting psychosis. Starvation and physical punishment for example.

[redheadfo847]

yes, the sun shooting off rainbow rays, coming into close proximity with the earth and hundreds of miraculous healings of disabled peoples, and people seeing it from 15 miles away from the gathered crowds... just from staring at the sun? We should tell doctors about this...oh yea, no reported bindness during this 10 min "stare-fest"

Not to mention two of these children were told they would die at a young age, or not to mention them proclaiming the start of communism and the second world war

[HeavyMetalZombie]

Yeah, healings are typically exaggerated. They were either getting better when it happened or it was the placebo effect. Are you going to argue that getting shot with sugar water cures cancer? It's the power of suggestion, it goes along way. I've watched person become completely immobalized because an expert in the field suggested he couldn't move.

Of course no one more than 40 miles away saw this. And there is no scientific account of the event occuring at all.

[dingorex]

And when Jacinta's body was exumed after her death, from the 1919 Influenza outbreak, it was found to be incorrupt, just as many of Catholic saints. I have a picture of the exumation.

[dingorex]

Yeah I was gonna put a video of the Fatima miracles up, but it's way too long. I may trim it down. It's a very hard to refute series of miracles that everyone should research. The drying of the cloths and mud on and near the atheist newspapermen is one of the big mysteries.

[dingorex]

The Our Lady of Guadalupe image is very baffling to scientists also as it is without brushstrokes on unsized cactus fibers with images of the three people in the room in the aspect of Mary's eyes. People should go to a Catholic bookstore to read up on these marvelous miracles.

[number16aaron]

how?

[HeavyMetalZombie]

What do you mean how?