Just to clarify, your assertion that personhood starts at fertilization is absolutely ridiculous, for several reasons.
1. Fertilized eggs are naturally flushed from women regularly, without them knowing. They're not even miscarriages. Should we hold a funeral? Should the woman be investigated for murder?2. The morning-after pill will prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. Murder?
3. Fertilized eggs are regularly discarded after IVF. Murder?
4. If a fetus absorbs its twin in the womb, murder?
At least you're consistent in your woman-hate. What about rape? Do you support the rape exception?
Recently a woman became pregnant and she had to go off her antipsychotic medication in order to bear the child. She went through withdrawal and tried to commit suicide. She survived the attempt but she miscarried. Now she's in jail for child abuse and murder. Justified?
Plus, you didn't answer my first question. Should a woman be INVESTIGATED FOR MURDER if a fertilized egg is flushed from her body? Clearly she's a mass-murderer and should be barred from reproduction if this keeps happening.
No, I;m explaining that there's a difference between spontaneous and induced abortions just like there's a difference between any natural death and any homicide.
Except most deaths are investigated. So you're saying that fertilized eggs are special persons who a) get to use somebody's else's body without their consent, which no other person gets to do, and b) get to bypass the traditional investigation usually associated with spontaneous death.
You didn't answer my miscarriage question, either.
You are an idiot. Think before you post. I never said a person is anything with a human genome. Let me repeat myself. A PERSON IS ANY ORGANISM WITH THE GENOME OF THE SPECIES HOMO SAPIENS!!! Do I make myself clear?
Hah, you missed the entire point. A tapeworm can ingest, excrete, reproduce, move, maintain homeostasis, etc., that is what makes it an organism. Not that it nourishes itself from an outside source (all organisms do this!) Fetuses can't do any of those things.
Philosophy, not morality. Handing in every woman's uterus to the state isn't very moral, either way.
What? That's like saying banning rape is handing in every man's penis to the state, or that banning child molestation is handing in every father's bedroom to the state.
Not really. It's more like allowing rape because a woman's vagina is not to be used for her own purposes, and she must submit to anyone who decides to use her body without her permission.
Except we've already established that fetuses are not complete organisms yet, which clashes with your non-legal definition of "person".
What you are saying is that a woman has no right to her body, while has a man has full autonomy over both his AND hers, considering how often saddling women with kids is used to keep women in their place.
No you haven't. I replied saying that fetuses cannot excrete, ingest, maintain homeostasis, etc., therefore they are not organisms yet. An organism is a living entity that can function independently. "Independently" meaning "self-sustaining bodily systems". You're the one being scientifically inaccurate here.
"Filicide" implies a born child, for one, and two, you're asserting that she cannot have full control over her body, and that she must be subservient to another person against her will.
Do I have to draw a fucking diagram? An abortion is against her son or daughter's body, NOT HER BODY!
Filicide derives from the Latin filius, meaning son. Is prolicide better?
Again, look it up. An embryo is an organism. Any textbook will tell you that.
I am not saying a mother is subservient to her child; I am merely saying she has no right to kill said child. I am not subservient to you because you have no right to suck my brains out and/or rip me limb from limb.
Apparently you DO have to draw a diagram. A diagram to show how a fetus is NOT synonymous with a woman's body. If you don't have the woman's body, you don't have the fetus. Since it's HER body, it's HER choice. You have NO say whatsoever in what happens to a woman's body. And YES. A pregnancy is part of a woman's body. The mother's life comes first.
You have obviously watched too many falsified videos of fake abortions.
So fetuses actually exist outside a woman's body? Really! I had no idea! Do I have to draw a diagram for you? Everything from a fertilized egg to a fetus IS CURRENTLY INSIDE A WOMAN.
An embryo is a developing organism. No complete bodily systems, no individuality, no organism. Sorry.
You would be subservient to me if I attached myself to your body against your will and then claimed you had no right to remove me, despite the fact that I would cause you to suffering.
No, "prolicide" also implies a born child. You mean feticide, which still is only applicable if the woman actually plans on giving birth to the child. Why do you keep misusing legal terms?
Psh. This is nothing but semantics at this point. When it comes to the issue of abortion, I will never vote to give other people the right to choose one life over mine - even if I'm carrying it. Keep your laws off my body and keep your religion out of my laws.
Just to clarify, your assertion that personhood starts at fertilization is absolutely ridiculous, for several reasons.
1. Fertilized eggs are naturally flushed from women regularly, without them knowing. They're not even miscarriages. Should we hold a funeral? Should the woman be investigated for murder?2. The morning-after pill will prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. Murder?
3. Fertilized eggs are regularly discarded after IVF. Murder?
4. If a fetus absorbs its twin in the womb, murder?
hazelfo 2 years ago 3
1a: So? People die at all stages of development.
1b: Yes, the morning after pill is immoral.
2: Yes.
3: No. Ever heard of automatism?
Novjunulo 2 years ago
At least you're consistent in your woman-hate. What about rape? Do you support the rape exception?
Recently a woman became pregnant and she had to go off her antipsychotic medication in order to bear the child. She went through withdrawal and tried to commit suicide. She survived the attempt but she miscarried. Now she's in jail for child abuse and murder. Justified?
hazelfo 2 years ago
Plus, you didn't answer my first question. Should a woman be INVESTIGATED FOR MURDER if a fertilized egg is flushed from her body? Clearly she's a mass-murderer and should be barred from reproduction if this keeps happening.
hazelfo 2 years ago
No. That's just stupid.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
I'm glad you're finally admitting that your position is stupid and unenforceable.
hazelfo 2 years ago 4
No, I;m explaining that there's a difference between spontaneous and induced abortions just like there's a difference between any natural death and any homicide.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
Except most deaths are investigated. So you're saying that fertilized eggs are special persons who a) get to use somebody's else's body without their consent, which no other person gets to do, and b) get to bypass the traditional investigation usually associated with spontaneous death.
You didn't answer my miscarriage question, either.
hazelfo 2 years ago 3
How is babby formed?
Nulono 2 years ago
Novjunulo 2 years ago
Fetuses are not organisms. An organism is capable of sustaining independent life (i.e. complete bodily systems). Fetuses do not fit the bill.
Furthermore, "person" is a legal term. So you pretty much fail on all fronts.
hazelfo 2 years ago
By your logic, a tapeworm is not an organism. Do some fucking research.
"Personhood" is largely a philosophical term, and the law is largely based on philosophy.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
Hah, you missed the entire point. A tapeworm can ingest, excrete, reproduce, move, maintain homeostasis, etc., that is what makes it an organism. Not that it nourishes itself from an outside source (all organisms do this!) Fetuses can't do any of those things.
Philosophy, not morality. Handing in every woman's uterus to the state isn't very moral, either way.
hazelfo 2 years ago
What? That's like saying banning rape is handing in every man's penis to the state, or that banning child molestation is handing in every father's bedroom to the state.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
Not really. It's more like allowing rape because a woman's vagina is not to be used for her own purposes, and she must submit to anyone who decides to use her body without her permission.
hazelfo 2 years ago
No, it's not. We're debating the same thing, right? I'm saying a woman has no more of a right to commit homicide than a man does.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
Except we've already established that fetuses are not complete organisms yet, which clashes with your non-legal definition of "person".
What you are saying is that a woman has no right to her body, while has a man has full autonomy over both his AND hers, considering how often saddling women with kids is used to keep women in their place.
hazelfo 2 years ago
1: Who is "we"? You have asserted that, and I have pointed out that it is scientifically inaccurate.
2: No, I am asserting that she has no right to commit filicide.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
No you haven't. I replied saying that fetuses cannot excrete, ingest, maintain homeostasis, etc., therefore they are not organisms yet. An organism is a living entity that can function independently. "Independently" meaning "self-sustaining bodily systems". You're the one being scientifically inaccurate here.
"Filicide" implies a born child, for one, and two, you're asserting that she cannot have full control over her body, and that she must be subservient to another person against her will.
hazelfo 2 years ago
Prolicide is the act of killing one's own offspring.[citation needed] It may refer to
Filicide
Feticide
[edit]See also
Infanticide
Child murder
-cide
Novjunulo 2 years ago
But a woman DOES have a right to choose what to do with her body. It's HER body -- not yours and not the law's.
kaltaru 2 years ago
Do I have to draw a fucking diagram? An abortion is against her son or daughter's body, NOT HER BODY!
Filicide derives from the Latin filius, meaning son. Is prolicide better?
Again, look it up. An embryo is an organism. Any textbook will tell you that.
I am not saying a mother is subservient to her child; I am merely saying she has no right to kill said child. I am not subservient to you because you have no right to suck my brains out and/or rip me limb from limb.
Novjunulo 2 years ago
Apparently you DO have to draw a diagram. A diagram to show how a fetus is NOT synonymous with a woman's body. If you don't have the woman's body, you don't have the fetus. Since it's HER body, it's HER choice. You have NO say whatsoever in what happens to a woman's body. And YES. A pregnancy is part of a woman's body. The mother's life comes first.
You have obviously watched too many falsified videos of fake abortions.
kaltaru 2 years ago
So fetuses actually exist outside a woman's body? Really! I had no idea! Do I have to draw a diagram for you? Everything from a fertilized egg to a fetus IS CURRENTLY INSIDE A WOMAN.
An embryo is a developing organism. No complete bodily systems, no individuality, no organism. Sorry.
You would be subservient to me if I attached myself to your body against your will and then claimed you had no right to remove me, despite the fact that I would cause you to suffering.
hazelfo 2 years ago
There's a difference between "inside" and "part of".
Nulono 2 years ago
No, "prolicide" also implies a born child. You mean feticide, which still is only applicable if the woman actually plans on giving birth to the child. Why do you keep misusing legal terms?
hazelfo 2 years ago
Psh. This is nothing but semantics at this point. When it comes to the issue of abortion, I will never vote to give other people the right to choose one life over mine - even if I'm carrying it. Keep your laws off my body and keep your religion out of my laws.
kaltaru 2 years ago 3
If a person is anything with the genome of homo sapiens, then...
If I clip my fingernails, the clippings are people.
If I blow my nose, the snot on the tissue is a person.
If I cut my hair, the hairs on the floor are people.
If I take a dump, my shit is a person.
Because all of these things contain my cells and my DNA.
FAIL
XiaoGui17 2 years ago