Re: where Jesus Said I am God Show me Christian can you ? -2

[fenoglios]

Hi paperduck,

I'm not sure what you mean by "holding that God's consciousness is Scripture." Could you clarify? And as far as the unity of the will is concerned... I should disambiguate. I was referring to the way in which groups of pacifists, pro-lifers, proponents of universal health care, human rights activists, etc. are united by their respective visions. Each person of the trinity wills (desires/wishes) the same thing: to love every sentient being. They are united by a common vision.

[fenoglios]

Hi Paperduck,

Great question. As regards the Son and the Father... I think I would say that the Father has access to all of Jesus' consciousness, while Jesus only has access to a portion of the Father's. But there is another respect in which there is a unity, and it is a perfect unity. It is a unity of will (this is gives them all the same essential "personhood"). The Son and the Father will the exact same thing/s.

This is a good argument. Did I answer your question?

[paperduck20]

I would agree with the first part of your statement and add that it applies to everyone: holding that God's "conciousness" is Scripture. But in the second part, are you saying when God wills all the ant colonies and bee hives to gather food, the tides to turn, the sun to rise, and all the stars & galaxies on their course, that Jesus also willed all those things in perfect unison?

[fenoglios]

Hi Paperduck,

The Athanasian has never been an official creed of the Church. Most popular are the Apostles' and the Nicene. The Nicene says, "of one essence with the Father." But the scripture reference is John 10:30, "I and the Father are one" which indicates to me a relational union. But I don't see why there couldn't be *some* unity of consciousness as well. That would keep with your Athanasian quote, as long as "confounding" and "dividing" weren't taken in the absolute sense.

[paperduck20]

Well the key word here is "some" unity. Where is there *not* a unity? In my view it is in essence/substance, but what would your answer be?

[fenoglios]

Hi paperduck20,

I don't think that each member of the trinity is said to be equal in every respect. Part of orthodoxy (in my understanding) is that there is a hierarchy of sorts. But regardless, the road you take the analogy down isn't neccessary. The point isn't to show a specific quality of the trinity (i.e. visual vantage points), it's to show that different vantage points can be united in a single consciousness. If you're stuck on the analogy, fine, consider flies (5 eyes).

[fenoglios]

Give the Father at least 2 and the Son at least two... that way they both have depth perception.

[paperduck20]

Is it the same set of eyes or a different set? Do you see the pattern in the problem?

[fenoglios]

The metaphor isn't perfect... let me rephrase... it would be incorrect to say that the Father is limited in his perspective in any way (as regards knowledge). But it is not incorrect to say this about Jesus (in His earthly form). Scripture supports this (Mark 13:32)... and it is considered orthodoxy to believe that Jesus metaphorically "hid" some knowledge from Himself so as to make Himself human for a while.

[paperduck20]

Well if you understand there to be a hierarchy, then you don't hold today's standard creed toward the trinity. I'd say we're closer to the same understanding than most christians.

[fenoglios]

Keep in mind that the creeds were generalizations made from scripture, designed to protect against certain unscriptural beliefs. But scripture will always be more nuanced. The best approach is to consider the creeds, and then try to make sense of scripture in light of them. But regardless, I'd like to know what part of which creed you are referring to.

[paperduck20]

"Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance" I think it's 4th in the Athanasian creed, and some version of it exists in majority of Christian denomination. But like I said, your statements do suggest "divide the substance" to an extent, which is not a problem in my viewpoint, since the original statement is impossibility, i.e. like saying it's a triangle, but does not have 3 sides.

[fenoglios]

Also, if you want to understand the paradox, I do it like this. Each member of the trinity is one as far as the quality of relationship amongst them goes. They are in perfect agreement, and perfect unity. We could also speculate that they all have different perspectives united into one consciousness... like how your left eye gives you a different vantage point from your right.

[paperduck20]

I need both my eyes to obtain certain qualities of vision such as "depth", my left or right eye alone cannot provide depth. However in the trinity, each is said to be equal to the whole. The eye analogy fails because of this, my right eye doesn't have the vantage point of my left eye and according to trinity doctrine that is a blasphemy if applied to the persons.

[LIVERLADD]

Jesus is the sun of god! now go sort your own religion out!

[Rebit2late]

Well done, brother. Alhamdulillah.

Surah 21:18 Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and

behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to GOD).

GOD is ONE, the Uncreated Creator, He begets not, nor is he begotten and there is NONE LIKE UNTO HIM. Peace to all.