@vassilisthebest Actually, no. The trailer didn't show you the ending. It's a whole bunch more complicated and symbolic than that. The martial arts is only a framework around which to build this film. It's about adherence to your principles despite adversity and succeeding and finding respect by doing so.
One of the greatest movies i've seen so far. There's no situation where you can not escape. Pretty confident message ! And it's true. Also a display of improved character not only by him but also the women turned out to be a big surprise. I mean this guy was going through bad troubles like if it was icecream. The ending was a surprise and really moved me. It hits you totally defenseless!
The reason why this movie works is because its not trying to be a straight up action film. The film is about Martial arts, but about characters, honor, relationships and living by a code. This is Film Noir. Not Street fighter 2. And the ending was perfect. More than perfect. If you want to watch a mindless stupid MA movie , go rent "Never Back Down".
@skogalivegen123 thats the idea. Thats what made it so deep. That is was a drama. It can be a drama and still capture the spirit of martial arts. NEVER Backdown was an unrealistic hack writtten script written to cash in ont he MMA thing at the height of its popularity. I mean come on. The story bit off of every movie written cliche there was. Karate Kid, Rocky, I think I saw some Citizen Cane in there soem where. It had so much cheese , it shouldve been served with peporoni.
@Bladestar7 I long for the days when movies were about stories, not how hard they could visually yank on the viewers gonads or draw them into the useless angry frustrated stupidity they've tried to justify for their cardboard cutout "hero". One of the best Martial arts movies stories I've ever seen was called "Year of The Gentle Tiger". It was one of those after school specials back when I was younger and it was genius.
@MrMZaccone Couldnt agree with you more about that comment. We have been CGI'd to death. Why do you think we see all these remakes and reboots. No one make compelling stories anymore.
@skogalivegen123 Never Back Down was a cheap, hack, bullshit exploitation film with no story, and AWFUL fight scenes. The only thing that saved it at all was an actor the caliber of Djimon Hounsou.
It saddens me to read what you have to say about this picture. It also strengthens my belief that a person with a capacity to perceive and think through emotions of that higher than a toothpick is a rarity amongst those considering themselves practitioners of physical disciplines. Or, at least, so is the fact in the dark pit of YouTube comments.
To most of you, I, with next to none hope, say this: get your head out of your sweaty sporty arse and read, listen to some real music, enjoy your life.
Why does everyone want constant action from a Martial Art films? Heres a movie that finally presented the true meaning behind the training and the honor that lies behind it. If you think constantly say it sucked, than you missed the whole point of the movie. Amazing film if your into traditional martial art philosophy.
This person doesn't know what they are talking about! This movie is absolutely incredible and highly underrated. David Mamet is at his best!! This piece of ART is picture perfect.
I've been reading peoples comments about this movie and all the negative ones are stupid and so are the people who write them, this movie is Awesome, the ending fight is one of the best I have ever seen, is well laid out and full of emotion. If you think this movie is stupid you know nothing about Martial Arts or Life.
NIGGER MAKES SUPERIOR INVENTION!! EVIL WHITE MAN STEALS NIGGERINVENTION!! EVIL WHITE SLAVETRADER IS ALWAYS TO BLAME!!!
DAMN YOU EVIL WHITEY!!! DAMN YOU!!! IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT I AM BUTTHURT DRUGDEALER AND SERIALRAPIST!!!! BECAUSE YOUR ANCESTORS DID SOMETHING TO MY ANCESTORS SOME HUNDRED YEARS AGO, I CAN'T DO SHIT!!!
Just watched this on a recommendation from a friend. Have to say I really liked the main character's struggle throughout the film. I wouldn't call this a fighting movie though and posting things like "ima purple belt in bjj,and i wrestled for 5 years,this movie sucked fat balls" makes you sound like a complete tool. It's obvious you missed the point of the movie.
Again, this person must not understand story or wanted to see a movie full of grown sweaty men loving all over each other. This film is damn near perfect!
Judy, just let it go. I know better than to talk to him any longer. I had a good time talking with you about the film and some of the other stuff too. If you like, send me an e-mail and I'll send you the link to my movie forum board. We've got close to 4000 members now and I think you'd like the discussions we get into. They're always pretty varied in scope and genre.
I've had a much more enjoyable time talking to him about the movie than you, hun. He's right. You just like to argue. If someone disagrees with your opinion or doesn't see the same thing as you in a movie then its a misrepresentation of you as a person and you have to go ballistic on them? =(
STOP!!!! Plzzzzz stop. You are so over-bearing in wanting to argue all these points with him. He never wanted to argue with you from the beginning. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and just because they give them doesn't mean that they want to enter a war with you.
OMG.... look at YOU!!! You're doing it with me now. Quoting me on everything, disagreeing.. making this some dumb argument over who did what to your character. Stop arguing about everything!! You really can't see that it's you!?!? >=(
No I meant it like I wrote it. You're a very hostile forum poster and you're reading these posts with rose colored glasses. I'm not picking up any of this same vibe off of misti in our discussion and I didn't pick up any misrepresentation off of you two's talk. You need to realize that everyone doesn't want to argue to death on the matter and plus, it really kills the mood of threads. Please stop.
Ludlow, you're making yourself sound so petty here. He said that once he realized you two were in agreement on what the theme was, that was the end of his point. He wasn't trying to win at all costs, he just noticed you guys were going around about the techniques in the film and put in his opinion on what the movie was about. stop with this straw man thing and stop ruining the board!!!
OMG.. please stop. You are just ranting. You need to read his replies. It's like you're ignoring what he actually says. he doesn't want to argue with you about the points of the film.
Ludlow, please........ that wasn't what he was saying. You are a very hostile person. Let's not start another argument again. We've been having a pleasant time here. You're welcome to join in on it if you like, but I imagine you're going to have to settle down a little first. You're reading too much disrespect into his comments.
The Untouchables was pretty good. I really like the integration of the score to the pace of the film. The acting is solid too. Lots of big names in that movie.
I'm like your husband though in Glengarry. I laughed my ass off through that one. Maybe its a guy thing. Not sure. haha
Where'd my post go?? No, what I wanted to say was that I hated Glengarry. My hubby was laughing his ass off every time someone would clown on somebody. I was like, wtf is up with this movie??? It wasn't funny or intersting. I didn't know mamet did Untouchables until I read his film list. I sooo loved that movie!!! I love Deniro and Kevin Costner is super sexy in it!! LOL
Really? You didn't like Glengarry? I thought that was one of his better written films. The dialogue in that was sharp as hell. Just my opinion though. I can see how if you were hoping there was something more to it than everyone sitting around in a room trying to figure out what happened, it might be boring. Hahaha, bet it felt long eh?
No. I consider Mamet a once good director, who now writes a lot of his characters a little too simplistic in their verbose way. They all talk higher than their pay grade if that makes sense. I like early Mamet. This film was okay. Like I said, it was really just an element of the main character that I enjoyed. More than the rest of the film.
I practice martial arts and identified with Mike Terry's view on life, people, challenges, etc.
And Sky Captain.. that was sort of a cross-genre film. Interesting how they filmed that one. Some cool special features on that DVD about the making of and whatnot.
Actually Mamet made Wag the Dog too. That sort of crossed the boundaries too with comedy and politics.
Yeah, there isn't a lot. The ones that come to mind seem to all have western elements to them:
Wild Wild West (western mixed with sci-fi/steampunk technology)
Grim's Prairie Tales (western/horror)
Into the Badlands (western/horror)
I guess you could say that the Golden Compass was sort of a cross-genre film too. I think ultimately it's a very risky and ballsy move to make a movie appealing to different target groups so directors err on the side of caution.
I know!!! I'm not big into spacer movies. I like some sci-fi, but I was soooo surprised when my hubby brought that to my attention. He said, it's not what you think. I'm glad I gave it a try. Too bad there aren't more cross-genre movies out there like that.
I did. Really good end to an even better television series. Firefly was one of the most underrated and well-written shows I've seen in a long time. Space western. Who would've thought that would fly? Well technically it didn't, but most people who give it a shot are pleasantly surprised. Quite the addictive series.
Ooooooh!! I can't wait then. He might be one of my favorite actors right now. Plus I really like spy thrillers. My dad raised me on James Bond, so I'm kind of a Bond girl you might say ;-)!!! Salt sounds fantastic. Did you see Serenity??
I more enjoyed an element of Terry's character, more than anything else. He was a strong character in world of creeps. I've been through a section in my life similar to that character, so that part really struck a chord with me. Especially the ending. He was happier to please the teacher than to win the tournament.
Ya know, if you like Ejiofor, he's making a pretty cool looking film called Salt coming up here soon. Spy thriller.
It was alright. I really like Chiwetel Ejiofor's style of acting. He was great in Serenity, one of my husband's favorite movies and mine too!! Seemed like there were a lot of crazy things happening to him throughout the film to get him to the end, but it was enoyable. So I take it you liked it to? Well, I mean what did you like in it?
I'll say it again, anyone can have their opinion on a matter of entertainment. You can argue the points on whether something worked or not in a film, IF you have someone that cares to argue with you. I did not, so avoiding a confrontation with an annoying individual had zero to do with me wanting to talk about his "finer" points on a tertiary response.
It all goes back to this: "No, let's keep fighting." The talk should have ended there. He just likes to fight.
I didn't know if he knew that at first. He and mateah and bladestar were so wrapped up into how bad the film was based upon how well the fight scenes were shot, that it seemed that they were missing the point of the movie. Once we came to a point of agreement on what the theme was, I really didn't have much more to say. Ludlow's mistake was in thinking that I wanted to argue with him about why I liked the film and he didn't. An unrelated 2nd point that had nothing to do with my orig statement.
Whoa I didn't expect to see you back here misti O.O!!! I think you guys should have ended your talk when you 2 agreed about the theme of the movie. I think ludlow knew what the theme was all along, he was just talking about a part of the film he didn't like. the fighting scenes.
That should have ended it. But since ludlow saw this as a line in the sand, he had to start arguing a new point that was related to the original topic in an effort to thwart the integrity of my original statement. This is where any of this gets closest to the straw man. Rather than shaking hands on this, someone felt like they'd been slapped instead of having had an evolving discussion. This speaks volumes about lud's wretched etiquette skills.
Exactly, Judy. The straw man works only if I'm actually calling ludlow out as being wrong, which I'm not. He can have his opinion on the film. So can you. Ludlow needs to realize that threads are not always about a great cosmic war. Sometimes people just want to add their two cents, which is all I was doing (referring to the original issue of the movie's main theme). Whether he just came up with the theme after this or always knew it, doesn't matter to me. We came to an agreement.
I'm sorry to bring it up though. I just felt kinda bad for him. He didn't seem like he was being mean to you. Mabye frustrated, but I dunno. I think he took the straight forward approach and didn't care about the coincidances in the movie. Did that part bug you with him?
I can see some of the plot holes in the film and I'm not sure if that's what he meant by the film being mediocre or not mamets best, but this whole thread reads like he was being fairly modest and accepting of your position, but he just didn't want to argue with you. I dont blame him though. I hate flames on forums.
np.. I decided to just look it up on wikipedia. From the way the thread reads, his point was that the film's theme is honor and the fighting choreography is second to the main theme. I agree with this. Now, in reading the straw man theory if he is to be using that tactic, he is supposed to bring up a similar point that he can prove. When the second point is proved, he compares it to the first and says the first is wrong. The only thing is that I don't read where he said you were wrong.
Hmm. He didn't come off as dishonest, smug or high and mighty to me. His point was pretty straight forward and he made it pretty early on in the talk. I don't think you should attack people for their views. I know you think you were being attacked first, but as a fly on the wall, I don't see what you're talking about. I think he was trying to make peace by saying he appreciated your view even though he didn't agree with it. **shrug** Hope you guys play nicer with people in the future. =(
Well it does appear that you guys came to some common ground on the film being about honor, not the footwork. As far as I've read in this thread, that seems to be his main point.
I get what you're saying ludlow. The movie isn't the best thing in the world, but it doesn't seem like misti ever was arguing that with you. In fact, it doesn't look like he wanted to argue period. Well, I guess despite continually replying to you. That might be annoying I guess. =P
My point wasn't to antagonize Lud, it was originally to point out that the movie isn't about Jiu-Jitsu. Just like Watchmen isn't about super-heroes. Once we established that, Lud wanted to "keep fighting" about why he hated the movie. A point that he must have thought I cared about.
I've said repeatedly that it's okay for him to have his own opinion. I don't get what he's trying to prove to me. That I didn't like it? It's not a perfect movie. It's not Mamet's best work. I just liked it.
Nope. This isn't politics. This is a matter of whether one likes a movie or not. You keep using words like "war" and "politics". It's odd that you're at the point of proving your elusive point by name-calling. And somehow this point is juxtaposed to me agreeing that I understand you didn't like the film for your reasons on the issues of the craftsmanship of the film? Study the words "opinion" and "subjective" & then read any review to understand how people need not share the same view on things.
"Subjectivity, a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires"
By no means am I banishing it. I'm giving you my perspective that I like the film. You are giving me yours and going a step further in attempting to change mine? That's the part I don't get about you. Chill the fuck out and realize that not everyone will agree with you.
Ludlow: Again, no. Let me put this as simple as I can. You did not like the film. Fact. I did like the film. Fact. How can you possibly take this any further than that? I agree that you didn't like it for reasons of sloppy craftsmanship. I liked for different reasons altogether. You are chasing a result that will never happen. Get it through your thick little head and enough of this.
No, there are plenty who have different opinions who keep them at that. You and Antoine are both passive-aggressive posters that simply can't be okay with not liking something without making your sole aim to get the other person to concede? I don't get it. It's an opinion thing. There's no right or wrong answer here.
And your comment about me liking this more than I let on: not really. I just found Ludlow to be a silly man judging the film for the wrong reasons. He became sillier when he changed from his position on the sloppy footwork to how two-dimensional the characters were and how clumsy the plot was. Forgive me if I'm seeing a trend with this personality and do not wish to pursue an eternal argument for the "beauty" of arguing. Stick with a point.
You *two* don't like the film. Join the 30% who didn't
If there's nothing but silly contrived characters running amok, then why do you see that which isn't there? It's perhaps the one thing that keeps me coming back to respond to you. This thread is far more entertaining than the movie at this point.
I guess ultimately I don't understand what your stake is arguing this vehemently about the movie. I'm fine with liking it. You should ease your soul and be okay with not liking it. You won't be able to change the world in many things in life.
And I only said "There's a bit of interpretation as to whether or not there is a Machiavellian plot..." since you and Ludlow *cough* are the two people I've talked to about this movie that are ranting about this conspiracy. You (the Antoine personality) even said that "the characters are cardboard cutouts that behave incredibly stupidly and erratically"... not how Machiavellian plots work. They require more than silly people doing silly, stupid things to work.
And if it's not you then you appear to be a carbon copy. Its ok to simply disagree on the basis of opinion with someone without having to change everyone's opinion. I only came into this discussion due to the film being discredited on merits that were not part of it's theme. That and the subtext is something I participate in for recreation. I don't need to argue to prove a negative to you. It's pointless and arguing just for the sake of arguing.
I can appreciate your opinions. Like you and everyone else here, we all have them. What's good to one isn't to another. But everyone takes a little something out of movies different from the next person.
Just out of curiosity, where have you read of the public outcry for answers to this movie? Outside of the praise it gets from viewers on sites like this, I'm not privy to this group who are hunting for answers to the Machiavellian plot you're speaking of.
And as to Mamet's status as a director, I couldn't agree more. He is mediocre. Although I do like that his movies are not the cardboard cutouts that others are. Even the worst Mamet film, is more enjoyable than a Rush Hour 12, Pirates of the Crapittarean, or Die the Hardiest.
His best years (for cinema) were 87-98. But I'd give the best living playwright award to Edward Albee (sp?)
The thing I like about it is that most humans are the exact cardboard cutouts that you talk about *and* that I agree his characters resemble. Instead of making his characters into those that defy the grain, it's an accurate depiction of what most of face every day in life. There's a bit of interpretation as to whether or not there is a Machiavellian plot by the supporting characters of the drama. It isn't indicated by the writer in his commentary about the making of the film.
Good cinema doesn't slap you in the face with every explanation, my friend. And good editing removes the elements that don't need to be told. All of these things that you're stumbling over are questions that do not need to be answered to "get" the movie. Mamet wasn't writing War & Peace. He was writing a story about a man's character challenged.
You're about the only person I've read who has dissected the film to the point well past the theme. You should re-read some of your last questions, heh
3) In desperation (she planned on paying it back w/in days) and after having not been able to acquire money from her family (yes, it's in the movie), she sells her husband's idea to the promoters of the fight
4) The promoters don't actually have anything against Mike, and while he has issues based on his view of the art, have no problem with shooting him a portion of the take (also in the movie)
And the favor to Sondra is not unnecessary. How did you extrapolate that? Sister was in a pinch and she was helped out of her loanshark crunch quickly by those who had the money to do so.
"The validity of your interpretation depends on how deep you believe the con goes."
I'm only believing what the movie showed me. The one thing I can count on in a good Mamet film is not having to guess about the play of the movie. The reveal tells all at the end. Since it didn't play out this way, I'm left simply with what was given. I think you're reading too much into questions that aren't posed in the film.. except by you. It's a straight forward piece.
I didn't have any problem following the movie. And I'm beginning to think that you didn't pay very close attention to the film.
I suppose you would say that the Samurai trilogy was a farce (despite being *one* of cinema's best samurai trilogies) because the final duel doesn't play out realistically. And I assure you that it doesn't. Point is, let it go. Chill and enjoy movies for what they are. Fictional rides into another world. Not dissertations or educational videos.
I didn't say anyone was a dimwit. I simply said I didn't have a problem following the movie and I'm not sure why you did. If you didn't understand the movie, that's a better reason to not like it than on the grounds of the actor's footwork.
I haven't studied Jiu-Jitsu, but I am a fifth year student of Aikido and while I noticed some issues with some of the moves, I also realized that I'm watching a movie and it wasn't the point of the piece.
Yeah I didn't find it convoluted either, Antoine. It isn't the best movie in the world by any means, but it's far from tripe. There is a plethora of other films worthy of shame rants than this. Its fresh to see a Mamet film without all the usual trappings. I applaud him for deviating from his base, even if it isn't a perfect film.
There was no ruse to get him to divulge his training technique. The only ruse in the film from Sondra Terry was that she was down for Mike to throw the fight at the end of the film for money, since (in her eyes) they had exhausted every possibility to make any money. She wanted money in life. Mike was after honor.
It's not a tutorial on BJJ. It's like Bladestar said, a DRAMA about a man's honor vs. the greed of our society. The commentary here should not be on the subtext, but the actual point of the movie.. which both of you soundly missed.
I just find it amusing that whenever there's a movie about martial arts, there's all kinds of critics that spring out of the woodwork and criticize the techniques in the film instead of the theme of the film. As if, the film is about technique. Which, most are not. Thus, they miss the point of the film. If they are about technique, critique away.
Okay some of you are too hung up on the fight scenes. This is not an action movie. This is a drama set against the world of MMA. If this was made 10-20 yrs ago it would be the boxing world. Its about a man trying to live with a code of honor while everyone around him just wants to make money. ITS A DRAMA and rather believable one i might add.
Did the trailer just shown us the fucking ending?
vassilisthebest 1 month ago
@vassilisthebest Actually, no. The trailer didn't show you the ending. It's a whole bunch more complicated and symbolic than that. The martial arts is only a framework around which to build this film. It's about adherence to your principles despite adversity and succeeding and finding respect by doing so.
MrMZaccone 2 weeks ago
One of the greatest movies i've seen so far. There's no situation where you can not escape. Pretty confident message ! And it's true. Also a display of improved character not only by him but also the women turned out to be a big surprise. I mean this guy was going through bad troubles like if it was icecream. The ending was a surprise and really moved me. It hits you totally defenseless!
Repulver 5 months ago
THE TRAILER DID PUT OUT TO MUCH INFO BUT THIS MOVIE FU*KIN GREAT
NIGGAxG 7 months ago
Great movie. Instant classic for me.
amjiva 11 months ago
The reason why this movie works is because its not trying to be a straight up action film. The film is about Martial arts, but about characters, honor, relationships and living by a code. This is Film Noir. Not Street fighter 2. And the ending was perfect. More than perfect. If you want to watch a mindless stupid MA movie , go rent "Never Back Down".
Bladestar7 1 year ago
@Bladestar7 Gotta say i really disagree with you there..
skogalivegen123 11 months ago
@skogalivegen123 Yeah, how so?
Bladestar7 11 months ago
@Bladestar7 Well i loved never back down, great story and amazing fighting/training. This movie is barely about fighting. It`s all drama.
skogalivegen123 11 months ago
@skogalivegen123 thats the idea. Thats what made it so deep. That is was a drama. It can be a drama and still capture the spirit of martial arts. NEVER Backdown was an unrealistic hack writtten script written to cash in ont he MMA thing at the height of its popularity. I mean come on. The story bit off of every movie written cliche there was. Karate Kid, Rocky, I think I saw some Citizen Cane in there soem where. It had so much cheese , it shouldve been served with peporoni.
Bladestar7 11 months ago
@Bladestar7 Citizen Kane ... LOL! Dude that was hilarious! Thanks, that made my fuckin' day.
MrMZaccone 2 weeks ago
@MrMZaccone Happy to Enterain you. :-)
Bladestar7 2 weeks ago
@Bladestar7 I long for the days when movies were about stories, not how hard they could visually yank on the viewers gonads or draw them into the useless angry frustrated stupidity they've tried to justify for their cardboard cutout "hero". One of the best Martial arts movies stories I've ever seen was called "Year of The Gentle Tiger". It was one of those after school specials back when I was younger and it was genius.
MrMZaccone 2 weeks ago
@MrMZaccone Couldnt agree with you more about that comment. We have been CGI'd to death. Why do you think we see all these remakes and reboots. No one make compelling stories anymore.
Bladestar7 2 weeks ago
@skogalivegen123 Never Back Down was a cheap, hack, bullshit exploitation film with no story, and AWFUL fight scenes. The only thing that saved it at all was an actor the caliber of Djimon Hounsou.
MrMZaccone 2 weeks ago
It saddens me to read what you have to say about this picture. It also strengthens my belief that a person with a capacity to perceive and think through emotions of that higher than a toothpick is a rarity amongst those considering themselves practitioners of physical disciplines. Or, at least, so is the fact in the dark pit of YouTube comments.
To most of you, I, with next to none hope, say this: get your head out of your sweaty sporty arse and read, listen to some real music, enjoy your life.
abchernin 1 year ago
this movie was freaking AWESOME
k195 1 year ago 5
Why does everyone want constant action from a Martial Art films? Heres a movie that finally presented the true meaning behind the training and the honor that lies behind it. If you think constantly say it sucked, than you missed the whole point of the movie. Amazing film if your into traditional martial art philosophy.
shotojojo1986 1 year ago 2
@shotojojo1986
I didn't know I was into traditional martial arts philosophy until I saw this movie. :)
amjiva 11 months ago
great movie. well done chewie. alleynian : )
bill20067 1 year ago
crap
KingObould 2 years ago 5
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This person doesn't know what they are talking about! This movie is absolutely incredible and highly underrated. David Mamet is at his best!! This piece of ART is picture perfect.
rodneyorta 2 years ago
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Why can't white people invwent something them selves? Gotta steal from every body LOL.
Looks like a great movie to me.
abrimestome 2 years ago
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I've been reading peoples comments about this movie and all the negative ones are stupid and so are the people who write them, this movie is Awesome, the ending fight is one of the best I have ever seen, is well laid out and full of emotion. If you think this movie is stupid you know nothing about Martial Arts or Life.
RedElphAxis 2 years ago
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your fucking stupid, you totally missed the point of the movie.
RedElphAxis 2 years ago
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Point of the movie is:
NIGGER MAKES SUPERIOR INVENTION!! EVIL WHITE MAN STEALS NIGGERINVENTION!! EVIL WHITE SLAVETRADER IS ALWAYS TO BLAME!!!
DAMN YOU EVIL WHITEY!!! DAMN YOU!!! IT'S YOUR FAULT THAT I AM BUTTHURT DRUGDEALER AND SERIALRAPIST!!!! BECAUSE YOUR ANCESTORS DID SOMETHING TO MY ANCESTORS SOME HUNDRED YEARS AGO, I CAN'T DO SHIT!!!
Zanparast1 2 years ago 21
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You forgot white cunt fucking nigger civil rights powerranger/fighter!
RRRASPUTIN12342432 2 years ago 12
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So you would rather watch Never Back Down? LOL This is the best MMA movie there is. If you want a better martial arts film, watch Fearless.
Moviebro 2 years ago
Yeah, the trailer gives away too much. The trailer editor needs to learn a thing or two about how to hype a film without giving away the farm.
mistermattyc 2 years ago 10
I'm glad i've seen the movie before i watched this trailer. Major spoilers.
FlamingoTel 2 years ago 3
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Just watched this on a recommendation from a friend. Have to say I really liked the main character's struggle throughout the film. I wouldn't call this a fighting movie though and posting things like "ima purple belt in bjj,and i wrestled for 5 years,this movie sucked fat balls" makes you sound like a complete tool. It's obvious you missed the point of the movie.
mistermattyc 2 years ago
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I agree ;)
RedElphAxis 2 years ago
ima purple belt in bjj,and i wrestled for 5 years,this movie sucked fat balls
igotshot 2 years ago 6
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Again, this person must not understand story or wanted to see a movie full of grown sweaty men loving all over each other. This film is damn near perfect!
rodneyorta 2 years ago
@igotshot IT HAD A DEPRESSING MOOD OF TRADITIONAL JIUJITSU BEING KICK OUT OF BUSINESS BY BJJ ... JOKE
2submit 1 year ago
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This movie kicked ass. The big fight wasn't physical, it was a fight about principals.
kirkpaco 2 years ago
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That's right. Keep logging in all of your accounts to mute the truth, which is you are a bratty little kid and just couldn't be cool with people. =(
judyrubio 2 years ago
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The last word doesn't make you the winner ludlow, you have a very agitating personality. You sound like you need mental help. GOOD BYE!
judyrubio 2 years ago
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The last word doesn't make you the winner ludlow, you have a very agitating personality. You sound like you need mental help. GOOD BYE!
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Judy, just let it go. I know better than to talk to him any longer. I had a good time talking with you about the film and some of the other stuff too. If you like, send me an e-mail and I'll send you the link to my movie forum board. We've got close to 4000 members now and I think you'd like the discussions we get into. They're always pretty varied in scope and genre.
Peace, people. Good luck with you know who! :P
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I've had a much more enjoyable time talking to him about the movie than you, hun. He's right. You just like to argue. If someone disagrees with your opinion or doesn't see the same thing as you in a movie then its a misrepresentation of you as a person and you have to go ballistic on them? =(
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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STOP!!!! Plzzzzz stop. You are so over-bearing in wanting to argue all these points with him. He never wanted to argue with you from the beginning. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and just because they give them doesn't mean that they want to enter a war with you.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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OMG.... look at YOU!!! You're doing it with me now. Quoting me on everything, disagreeing.. making this some dumb argument over who did what to your character. Stop arguing about everything!! You really can't see that it's you!?!? >=(
judyrubio 2 years ago
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No I meant it like I wrote it. You're a very hostile forum poster and you're reading these posts with rose colored glasses. I'm not picking up any of this same vibe off of misti in our discussion and I didn't pick up any misrepresentation off of you two's talk. You need to realize that everyone doesn't want to argue to death on the matter and plus, it really kills the mood of threads. Please stop.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow, you're making yourself sound so petty here. He said that once he realized you two were in agreement on what the theme was, that was the end of his point. He wasn't trying to win at all costs, he just noticed you guys were going around about the techniques in the film and put in his opinion on what the movie was about. stop with this straw man thing and stop ruining the board!!!
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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OMG.. please stop. You are just ranting. You need to read his replies. It's like you're ignoring what he actually says. he doesn't want to argue with you about the points of the film.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow, please........ that wasn't what he was saying. You are a very hostile person. Let's not start another argument again. We've been having a pleasant time here. You're welcome to join in on it if you like, but I imagine you're going to have to settle down a little first. You're reading too much disrespect into his comments.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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It's not a guy thing. My daughter enjoyed that movie too. It's a me thing.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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The Untouchables was pretty good. I really like the integration of the score to the pace of the film. The acting is solid too. Lots of big names in that movie.
I'm like your husband though in Glengarry. I laughed my ass off through that one. Maybe its a guy thing. Not sure. haha
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Where'd my post go?? No, what I wanted to say was that I hated Glengarry. My hubby was laughing his ass off every time someone would clown on somebody. I was like, wtf is up with this movie??? It wasn't funny or intersting. I didn't know mamet did Untouchables until I read his film list. I sooo loved that movie!!! I love Deniro and Kevin Costner is super sexy in it!! LOL
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Really? You didn't like Glengarry? I thought that was one of his better written films. The dialogue in that was sharp as hell. Just my opinion though. I can see how if you were hoping there was something more to it than everyone sitting around in a room trying to figure out what happened, it might be boring. Hahaha, bet it felt long eh?
mistigrist 2 years ago
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okay okay, I can see that. Well that's cool misti.
I looked up mamet. Here's what I've seen of his ~ The Untouchables (loved it), Glengarry (boring!!!), heist (liked it) + redbelt (pretty good).
judyrubio 2 years ago
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lol
No. I consider Mamet a once good director, who now writes a lot of his characters a little too simplistic in their verbose way. They all talk higher than their pay grade if that makes sense. I like early Mamet. This film was okay. Like I said, it was really just an element of the main character that I enjoyed. More than the rest of the film.
I practice martial arts and identified with Mike Terry's view on life, people, challenges, etc.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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LOL!!!!
You must be a mamet fan! Besides this movie, I don't know if I've seen any of his other movies.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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And Sky Captain.. that was sort of a cross-genre film. Interesting how they filmed that one. Some cool special features on that DVD about the making of and whatnot.
Actually Mamet made Wag the Dog too. That sort of crossed the boundaries too with comedy and politics.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Yeah, there isn't a lot. The ones that come to mind seem to all have western elements to them:
Wild Wild West (western mixed with sci-fi/steampunk technology)
Grim's Prairie Tales (western/horror)
Into the Badlands (western/horror)
I guess you could say that the Golden Compass was sort of a cross-genre film too. I think ultimately it's a very risky and ballsy move to make a movie appealing to different target groups so directors err on the side of caution.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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I know!!! I'm not big into spacer movies. I like some sci-fi, but I was soooo surprised when my hubby brought that to my attention. He said, it's not what you think. I'm glad I gave it a try. Too bad there aren't more cross-genre movies out there like that.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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I did. Really good end to an even better television series. Firefly was one of the most underrated and well-written shows I've seen in a long time. Space western. Who would've thought that would fly? Well technically it didn't, but most people who give it a shot are pleasantly surprised. Quite the addictive series.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ooooooh!! I can't wait then. He might be one of my favorite actors right now. Plus I really like spy thrillers. My dad raised me on James Bond, so I'm kind of a Bond girl you might say ;-)!!! Salt sounds fantastic. Did you see Serenity??
judyrubio 2 years ago
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I more enjoyed an element of Terry's character, more than anything else. He was a strong character in world of creeps. I've been through a section in my life similar to that character, so that part really struck a chord with me. Especially the ending. He was happier to please the teacher than to win the tournament.
Ya know, if you like Ejiofor, he's making a pretty cool looking film called Salt coming up here soon. Spy thriller.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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It was alright. I really like Chiwetel Ejiofor's style of acting. He was great in Serenity, one of my husband's favorite movies and mine too!! Seemed like there were a lot of crazy things happening to him throughout the film to get him to the end, but it was enoyable. So I take it you liked it to? Well, I mean what did you like in it?
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Did you like the movie, Judy?
mistigrist 2 years ago
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I'll say it again, anyone can have their opinion on a matter of entertainment. You can argue the points on whether something worked or not in a film, IF you have someone that cares to argue with you. I did not, so avoiding a confrontation with an annoying individual had zero to do with me wanting to talk about his "finer" points on a tertiary response.
It all goes back to this: "No, let's keep fighting." The talk should have ended there. He just likes to fight.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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I didn't know if he knew that at first. He and mateah and bladestar were so wrapped up into how bad the film was based upon how well the fight scenes were shot, that it seemed that they were missing the point of the movie. Once we came to a point of agreement on what the theme was, I really didn't have much more to say. Ludlow's mistake was in thinking that I wanted to argue with him about why I liked the film and he didn't. An unrelated 2nd point that had nothing to do with my orig statement.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Whoa I didn't expect to see you back here misti O.O!!! I think you guys should have ended your talk when you 2 agreed about the theme of the movie. I think ludlow knew what the theme was all along, he was just talking about a part of the film he didn't like. the fighting scenes.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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That should have ended it. But since ludlow saw this as a line in the sand, he had to start arguing a new point that was related to the original topic in an effort to thwart the integrity of my original statement. This is where any of this gets closest to the straw man. Rather than shaking hands on this, someone felt like they'd been slapped instead of having had an evolving discussion. This speaks volumes about lud's wretched etiquette skills.
He'll no doubt need to argue more about this.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Exactly, Judy. The straw man works only if I'm actually calling ludlow out as being wrong, which I'm not. He can have his opinion on the film. So can you. Ludlow needs to realize that threads are not always about a great cosmic war. Sometimes people just want to add their two cents, which is all I was doing (referring to the original issue of the movie's main theme). Whether he just came up with the theme after this or always knew it, doesn't matter to me. We came to an agreement.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I'm sorry to bring it up though. I just felt kinda bad for him. He didn't seem like he was being mean to you. Mabye frustrated, but I dunno. I think he took the straight forward approach and didn't care about the coincidances in the movie. Did that part bug you with him?
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I can see some of the plot holes in the film and I'm not sure if that's what he meant by the film being mediocre or not mamets best, but this whole thread reads like he was being fairly modest and accepting of your position, but he just didn't want to argue with you. I dont blame him though. I hate flames on forums.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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np.. I decided to just look it up on wikipedia. From the way the thread reads, his point was that the film's theme is honor and the fighting choreography is second to the main theme. I agree with this. Now, in reading the straw man theory if he is to be using that tactic, he is supposed to bring up a similar point that he can prove. When the second point is proved, he compares it to the first and says the first is wrong. The only thing is that I don't read where he said you were wrong.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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btw, what's the straw man you kept mentioning over and over again?
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Hmm. He didn't come off as dishonest, smug or high and mighty to me. His point was pretty straight forward and he made it pretty early on in the talk. I don't think you should attack people for their views. I know you think you were being attacked first, but as a fly on the wall, I don't see what you're talking about. I think he was trying to make peace by saying he appreciated your view even though he didn't agree with it. **shrug** Hope you guys play nicer with people in the future. =(
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Judy,
My apologies for my part in ruining the fun of the thread. I'll end my part in this.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Well it does appear that you guys came to some common ground on the film being about honor, not the footwork. As far as I've read in this thread, that seems to be his main point.
I get what you're saying ludlow. The movie isn't the best thing in the world, but it doesn't seem like misti ever was arguing that with you. In fact, it doesn't look like he wanted to argue period. Well, I guess despite continually replying to you. That might be annoying I guess. =P
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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My point wasn't to antagonize Lud, it was originally to point out that the movie isn't about Jiu-Jitsu. Just like Watchmen isn't about super-heroes. Once we established that, Lud wanted to "keep fighting" about why he hated the movie. A point that he must have thought I cared about.
I've said repeatedly that it's okay for him to have his own opinion. I don't get what he's trying to prove to me. That I didn't like it? It's not a perfect movie. It's not Mamet's best work. I just liked it.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I've been following you guys for days now.
mistigris needs to just be fine with what he likes about the movie and quit antagonizing ludlow.
ludlow needs to simmer down and realize that not everyone has the same taste in movies.
nuff said guys. it's obvious you don't share the same opinion. you guys hijacked the fun out of this thread.
judyrubio 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Nope. This isn't politics. This is a matter of whether one likes a movie or not. You keep using words like "war" and "politics". It's odd that you're at the point of proving your elusive point by name-calling. And somehow this point is juxtaposed to me agreeing that I understand you didn't like the film for your reasons on the issues of the craftsmanship of the film? Study the words "opinion" and "subjective" & then read any review to understand how people need not share the same view on things.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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"Subjectivity, a subject's perspective, particularly feelings, beliefs, and desires"
By no means am I banishing it. I'm giving you my perspective that I like the film. You are giving me yours and going a step further in attempting to change mine? That's the part I don't get about you. Chill the fuck out and realize that not everyone will agree with you.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow: Again, no. Let me put this as simple as I can. You did not like the film. Fact. I did like the film. Fact. How can you possibly take this any further than that? I agree that you didn't like it for reasons of sloppy craftsmanship. I liked for different reasons altogether. You are chasing a result that will never happen. Get it through your thick little head and enough of this.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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No, there are plenty who have different opinions who keep them at that. You and Antoine are both passive-aggressive posters that simply can't be okay with not liking something without making your sole aim to get the other person to concede? I don't get it. It's an opinion thing. There's no right or wrong answer here.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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And your comment about me liking this more than I let on: not really. I just found Ludlow to be a silly man judging the film for the wrong reasons. He became sillier when he changed from his position on the sloppy footwork to how two-dimensional the characters were and how clumsy the plot was. Forgive me if I'm seeing a trend with this personality and do not wish to pursue an eternal argument for the "beauty" of arguing. Stick with a point.
You *two* don't like the film. Join the 30% who didn't
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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If there's nothing but silly contrived characters running amok, then why do you see that which isn't there? It's perhaps the one thing that keeps me coming back to respond to you. This thread is far more entertaining than the movie at this point.
I guess ultimately I don't understand what your stake is arguing this vehemently about the movie. I'm fine with liking it. You should ease your soul and be okay with not liking it. You won't be able to change the world in many things in life.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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And I only said "There's a bit of interpretation as to whether or not there is a Machiavellian plot..." since you and Ludlow *cough* are the two people I've talked to about this movie that are ranting about this conspiracy. You (the Antoine personality) even said that "the characters are cardboard cutouts that behave incredibly stupidly and erratically"... not how Machiavellian plots work. They require more than silly people doing silly, stupid things to work.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Hello Ludlow. :)
And if it's not you then you appear to be a carbon copy. Its ok to simply disagree on the basis of opinion with someone without having to change everyone's opinion. I only came into this discussion due to the film being discredited on merits that were not part of it's theme. That and the subtext is something I participate in for recreation. I don't need to argue to prove a negative to you. It's pointless and arguing just for the sake of arguing.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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I can appreciate your opinions. Like you and everyone else here, we all have them. What's good to one isn't to another. But everyone takes a little something out of movies different from the next person.
Just out of curiosity, where have you read of the public outcry for answers to this movie? Outside of the praise it gets from viewers on sites like this, I'm not privy to this group who are hunting for answers to the Machiavellian plot you're speaking of.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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And as to Mamet's status as a director, I couldn't agree more. He is mediocre. Although I do like that his movies are not the cardboard cutouts that others are. Even the worst Mamet film, is more enjoyable than a Rush Hour 12, Pirates of the Crapittarean, or Die the Hardiest.
His best years (for cinema) were 87-98. But I'd give the best living playwright award to Edward Albee (sp?)
mistigrist 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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The thing I like about it is that most humans are the exact cardboard cutouts that you talk about *and* that I agree his characters resemble. Instead of making his characters into those that defy the grain, it's an accurate depiction of what most of face every day in life. There's a bit of interpretation as to whether or not there is a Machiavellian plot by the supporting characters of the drama. It isn't indicated by the writer in his commentary about the making of the film.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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I could be off on those dates, but it's when he first did House of Games and ended with Ronin, in my opinion.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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mistigrist 2 years ago
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The rating speaks for itself, this movie rocked!!!
rheinlander7 2 years ago
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Naw. I don't care to explain it to you. Kinda tired of going around in circles with you. You appear to just like to argue.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Good cinema doesn't slap you in the face with every explanation, my friend. And good editing removes the elements that don't need to be told. All of these things that you're stumbling over are questions that do not need to be answered to "get" the movie. Mamet wasn't writing War & Peace. He was writing a story about a man's character challenged.
You're about the only person I've read who has dissected the film to the point well past the theme. You should re-read some of your last questions, heh
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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one of the BEST movies i watched!
LalalandE2008 2 years ago
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And it's okay to not like it for that reason. : )
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Right..
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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1) Sondra makes a deal with a loan shark.
2) Textile deal goes south.
3) In desperation (she planned on paying it back w/in days) and after having not been able to acquire money from her family (yes, it's in the movie), she sells her husband's idea to the promoters of the fight
4) The promoters don't actually have anything against Mike, and while he has issues based on his view of the art, have no problem with shooting him a portion of the take (also in the movie)
mistigrist 2 years ago
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And the favor to Sondra is not unnecessary. How did you extrapolate that? Sister was in a pinch and she was helped out of her loanshark crunch quickly by those who had the money to do so.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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"The validity of your interpretation depends on how deep you believe the con goes."
I'm only believing what the movie showed me. The one thing I can count on in a good Mamet film is not having to guess about the play of the movie. The reveal tells all at the end. Since it didn't play out this way, I'm left simply with what was given. I think you're reading too much into questions that aren't posed in the film.. except by you. It's a straight forward piece.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I didn't have any problem following the movie. And I'm beginning to think that you didn't pay very close attention to the film.
I suppose you would say that the Samurai trilogy was a farce (despite being *one* of cinema's best samurai trilogies) because the final duel doesn't play out realistically. And I assure you that it doesn't. Point is, let it go. Chill and enjoy movies for what they are. Fictional rides into another world. Not dissertations or educational videos.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I didn't say anyone was a dimwit. I simply said I didn't have a problem following the movie and I'm not sure why you did. If you didn't understand the movie, that's a better reason to not like it than on the grounds of the actor's footwork.
I haven't studied Jiu-Jitsu, but I am a fifth year student of Aikido and while I noticed some issues with some of the moves, I also realized that I'm watching a movie and it wasn't the point of the piece.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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Yeah I didn't find it convoluted either, Antoine. It isn't the best movie in the world by any means, but it's far from tripe. There is a plethora of other films worthy of shame rants than this. Its fresh to see a Mamet film without all the usual trappings. I applaud him for deviating from his base, even if it isn't a perfect film.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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AntoineFTW 2 years ago
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**possible spoiler**
There was no ruse to get him to divulge his training technique. The only ruse in the film from Sondra Terry was that she was down for Mike to throw the fight at the end of the film for money, since (in her eyes) they had exhausted every possibility to make any money. She wanted money in life. Mike was after honor.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Mateah & Ludlow:
It's not a tutorial on BJJ. It's like Bladestar said, a DRAMA about a man's honor vs. the greed of our society. The commentary here should not be on the subtext, but the actual point of the movie.. which both of you soundly missed.
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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I just find it amusing that whenever there's a movie about martial arts, there's all kinds of critics that spring out of the woodwork and criticize the techniques in the film instead of the theme of the film. As if, the film is about technique. Which, most are not. Thus, they miss the point of the film. If they are about technique, critique away.
"He's holding the sword wrong. This movie sucks!"
mistigrist 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago
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Okay some of you are too hung up on the fight scenes. This is not an action movie. This is a drama set against the world of MMA. If this was made 10-20 yrs ago it would be the boxing world. Its about a man trying to live with a code of honor while everyone around him just wants to make money. ITS A DRAMA and rather believable one i might add.
Bladestar7 2 years ago
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Ludlow889 2 years ago