Sophocles' Antigone: Eros Chorus and 'Farewell Aria'

[48wope]

I´m missing the "Πολλὰ τὰ δεινὰ κοὐδὲν ἀνθρώπου δεινότερον πέλει." Chorus.

but this is also great.

[shaivista]

I do somehow agree with you on the matter of the danced poetics but i cannot opine before i have read your book and take on the matter. You have not offended me or anyone and i have been an asshole in the previous comments but do take it simply as a reaction and nothing else. On the contrary your dedication to what we Greeks consider holy (our language) is honorable and commendable. Thank you

[shaivista]

You are simply using the Erasmian accent. No one knows for sure how ancient greek was articulated and how it sounded like but for sure it is not like how Erasmus in the renaissance pronounced it... Look into medieval greek (Byzantine and "Purist" greek) to find out a closer to antiquity sound. In greek you do not pronounce every letter as you see it. No Malakais but Malakaes ( short a and e as in Echo). Do you speak Greek? You do know that it is still the same language?

[amirthanayagamdavid]

@shaivista This is also what the students said at Olympia, that my pronunciation at the talk I gave reminded them of the Erasmian accent. I assure you I have no knowledge of Erasmus. My book all comes from exo-Greek philology. I do think your language is holy, or at least I treat it so. Not a day goes by without the reading of Homer. Perhaps we could correspond by e-mail? This method is clumsy and public.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

my friend, you say yourself that "No one knows for sure how ...", but you seem to know it so well!

In (ancient) Greek you pronounce every letter written, (they invented the alphabet, one grapheme = one phoneme).

Examine the linear-B to understand more about the forming of ancient words etc. Also the ancient Greek grammarians about the pronunciation, check the dialects and then come back. Or give me one good reason why the wise Greeks would write the sound [ee] in 8 ways...

[shaivista]

@iostrat It just happens that my native language is Greek, yes modern Greek , but nonetheless Greek. Especially Arcado-Cypriot greek which is the ancient surviving dialect. It would be extremely lengthy and unnescessary to debate over the linguistic evolution of ancient greek into modern Greek. Suffice to say that Greek never died out. We know how ancient greek was pronounced because we have the knowledge handed down to us from the times of the early byzantine empire

[shaivista]

@shaivista when the language had switched from latin to Greek by decree as the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire. We have books, guides to phonetics and proper pronunciation from that time that have been meticulously copied and preserved by our priests and sages in monasteries along with many of the survivng texts of ancient writers. I love how you are trying to teach me about the "graphemes and phonemes" of my mother tongue. Do you even speak greek?

[iostrat]

@shaivista

I would be very pleased to see what grammarians' work has been handed to you about ancient Greek pronunciation. You never know, I may learn something ;-)

But if you're speaking Arcado-Cypriot Greek, you're well acquainted e.g. with the double and aspirate consonants etc, that are today just considered a "dialect" or even «χωριαταρέϊκα».

Happy new year in the meantime :-)

[shaivista]

@iostrat xwriatareika....now that is a silly thing to say about the cypriot dialect, not to mention insulting. The comment section of youtube is not the place now to argue in depth, suffice to say that if you analyze "xwriatareika"(sic) then you will realize how closer they are to ancient greek than the koine.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

I don't mean anything diminutive for your dialect by any means. Contrary, I'm so happy that it has survived the mainstream contemporary Greek pronunciation and still lively shows the way to those that spare no time, effort or will to discover the past of this remarkable language.

If you call the recomposed pronunciation "Erasmian" I understand you've not done enough research on the matter.

The «χωριαταρέικα» (sic) was a respond on my knowledge of Greek...

Happy 2012

[shaivista]

@iostrat For example: The etymology of the word "άνθρωπος" (human) is from "Ανήρ" - " 'Ανδρας" (Man) and " Ώψη " (appearance) . The proper ancient word for it is "Ανδρωπός" = What appears like man (but in the ancient sense meaning having the shape of a human not the male sex.) In modern Greek the word is "ανθρωπος" but if you go to the villages as you say in Cyprus you will hear "Αδρωπος" instead. And that is closer to the ancient "Ανδρωπός" than the modern equivalent. I am using this word

[shaivista]

@shaivista because there are a lot of greeks who do not know or give false etymology to this word just because of the "θ". There are a great ammount of ancient greek words that have survived in cypriot while they died out in modern Greek. Cyprus is an island therefore cutoff in a way from the mainland. The sound of the words hasn;t changed much either due to that fact.

[shaivista]

@iostrat For the ancient pronunciation books you'll just have to ask any greek philologue (one that graduated from a main greek university). I don't remember the specific author's name but I'm pretty sure schools and libraries have them.

[shaivista]

@iostrat Happy new year to you too.

[shaivista]

@iostrat listen to this: /watch?v=QFT_w7RTsnM&context=C­3d709ddADOEgsToPDskJuqBvTYsj3E­Vj9oK-FSqzI

This is how one should read Ancient Greek. Listen to the rhythm, the pitch changes and melody, the correct phrazing, the feeling that the speaker realizes what he is speaking about. Everything that the latinized erasmian method misses. The way ancient greek is "spoken" in this video sound like how an unrefined foreigner of ancient times would sound like when he spoke greek.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

maybe in that last comment you're right. The whole recording is a reasonable trial, but it's not only the expression missing many points, but also the more technical parts.

[shaivista]

@shaivista I made a mistake and gave you the wrong link. This is what I wanted you to listen to watch?v=6GpZt0NAkcI&feature=re­lated

[iostrat]

@shaivista

but this is the contemporary Greek pronunciation!?

Of course in a wonderful interpretation of the actor, exemplary but irrelevant to the classical one; where are the long & short vowels? the diphthongs? the metrum? Even Aristotle wrote e.g. that the letter [z] was pronounced [zd or dz]. You can still understand why if you listen how the... Cypriots fortunately do it even today! ;-)

Sorry for the γλαῦκαν Ἀθῆναζε but...

[shaivista]

@iostrat I'm amazed that you missed the long and short vowels and especially the metrum... Maybe it's because you think that they must be overly stressed. LOL...the diphthongs? Do you know how to read a diphtong in Greek? E.g: (Α+ί =Αι = Εε as in Helen), (Α+Υ = Αυ = Αβ or Αφ as in AVerage) (E+ί = Ει = ηη as in peel) (O+Y = Oυ = OO as in Boot) etc... The letter Z was and is not pronounced dz. Only K can change to [dz] . Also double S could change to double Tt and vice versa.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

Hi and happy new year!

Excuse me but you're not really aware of what you're talking about... A "diphthong" is what its name says... not "monophthong", you don't call "diorophon" a house with... one floor! The same with "au" etc they could write "aB"/"aF" which by accident had to be written "aPH"; Too many strange things, don't you think?

You really believe that the Koine, Byzantine and contemporary language sounded the same like before, don't you? Well, about beliefs we cannot talk.

[shaivista]

@iostrat Happy new year to you too. Apparently you are not the one who realizes what a diphthong really is. "Φθογγος" means letter. "Διφθογγος" means 2 letters. Diphthongs in Greek are : Αι,Αυ,Γγ,Γκ,Ει,Ευ,Μπ,Νκ,Οι,Ου,­.. In ancient greek "Γγ" was called "Διγαμμα" and had it's own "Φθογγος" that died out. "Διγαμμα" was pronounced as G. There was also J called " Ιοτ "but that letter also died out (substituted by other writing conventions). You think Greek is Latin and that you read every

[shaivista]

@shaivista thing as it appears. That unfortunately is not the case. While Greek is a sister or rather more like mother language of Latin there are significant differences in pronunciation.

No i don't believe the koine and the byzantine sounded the same like the ancient greek. That would be stupid. As stupid as believing that the ancient greek sounded like a german on holiday in greece learning elementary greek on the beach.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

a contemporary diphthong is e.g. the «άι» in «γάιδαρος». «Φθόγγος» means unfortunatelly sound, you confuse the visual representation (γράμμα) with the audible (φωνή, φθόγγος, φθέγγω) etc.

Digamma (ϝ) was the name of the letter/symbol with the sound [w], that depending on the environment became [h, v/u, b, g/γ] etc

Calling Μπ, Νκ, Γγ diphthongs while these are consonants, confirms a total ignorance of the relevant stuff. Please, start reading the elementary stuff before commenting.

[shaivista]

@iostrat Καλα. Ελα εσυ να με μαθεις. Πιστευε οτι θες!

[shaivista]

@shaivista correction: 2 φωνες (οι ηχοι) που μετατρεπονται σε ενα.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

Εὔγε, νέε, I hope you'll remain so steadfast on everything you believe is true, only, take care that you don't believe the wrong things. It's not personal and I've requested you about linguistic matters, getting swearing in response... Well, this is contemporary dialectics.

Μὴ προτρεχέτω ἡ γλῶττα τῆς διανοίας

[shaivista]

@iostrat since when consonants stop being sounds?

[shaivista]

@iostrat I deny to accept Erasmus's construct, yes of course the modern greek view is not sure about what the difference in pronunciation was , but still it was not how Erasmus made it to be. He plainly gave you the outsiders, speakers of Germanic languages an easy way of pronouncing ancient greek.Same as he did with latin.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

Erasmus's supposition that started from a joke (NB from a colleague that insisted all his life on the byzantine pronunciation) and many mistakes, but the remains of writings of ancient grammarians e.a. are clear on the points we are talking about. Unfortunately only few people know them, especially in Greek speaking countries... You could wonder why ;-)

So for you a δίκροκο αὐγό is ... two eggs or one egg with ...one yolk :-D

foundalis . com/lan/betapro . htm

[shaivista]

@iostrat Yes I know all about Kratinos and the sheep. But thanks anw for sharing the link. Have you ever considered that Beta could have sounded like B+V like in spanish "Vivo" .. It's not exaclty a V nor a hard B. I believe the same. Htta as double Epsilon is also a known fact. In the same light as your doubleyoked eggs why the need to write "EE" into "H" one gramma/phthong ... maybe because it might have sounded like "Ey" as in "Hey"? thus the "H" sound won over the "E"

[shaivista]

@shaivista Diphthongs unite into one longer sound and syllable. once divided as in "γάιδαρος" they become monophthongs otherwise without the punctuation it would have read "γεεδαρος"

[iostrat]

@shaivista

I don't agree here, because we're talking about pro-byzantine pronunciation.

The diphthong is a δίφθογγος συλλαβή, two sounds in one syllabe (συλλαμβάνω).

The γάιδαρος example is of course contemporary Greek, written γάϊδαρος and spelled γά-ι-δα-ρος, but this is the writing convention, because today we read [αι] as «ε». I used it as a proper example of the sound of ancient diphthongic «αι»

In Homeric & ancient texts and Linear-B, you'll find both diphthongs & non-diphthongs that fit

[iostrat]

@shaivista

I agree. In Ionic Greek, they pronounced some letters "soft" and they only letters that this can describe are the [β, γ, δ, ζ].

The [η] must have sounded "ey" when the surrounding sounds demanded and this can explain its quick transition to [i]. It was a long, broad [e] sound, with the mouth open. The κρᾶσις of [α+ε] and the replacement of [ᾱ] with [η] between the Doric/Aeolian and Attic/Ionian points in this direction.

I find funny that it survives today, when people are in doubt!

[shaivista]

@iostrat Let's take the word "No" in ancient greek "ΟΥΚ" which the modern greek equivalent is "Οχι". You read ΟΥΚ as in BOOK and not O-Y-K . O+Y = U

[iostrat]

@shaivista

(1) the sound of letter «υ» was like the German "ü" until late. Today you can find this sound in Rhodos and the Pontian Greeks. Also the reason why in Latin the letter "Y" had to be adopted, since they had both "U" and "I", shows the difference in sound of the "Greek-Y".

[shaivista]

@iostrat Maybe Ypsilon was as it's name suggests a high pitched (i) ? and Epsilon a high pitched (E) while (η) would glide from high pitced E to a lower pitch E thus creating a sort of (Εει) sound? What is your opinion on this one?

[iostrat]

@shaivista

no, ψιλόν written with ἰῶτα means bare, uncovered, naked, (for letters: not δασύ)

Hdn.Epim.62, ε_ ψ. is not yet merely the name of the letter:

2. of mute consonants, the litterae tenues, π κ τ, opp. φ χ θ, ὅσαι γίγνονται χωρὶς τῆς τοῦ πνεύματος ἐκβολῆς Arist. Aud.804b10, cf. D.H.Comp.14, D.T.631.21; ψιλῶς καλεῖν pronounce with a littera tenuis for an aspirate, e. g., ῥάπυς for ῥάφυς, ἀσπάραγος for ἀσφάραγος, Ath.9.369b, cf. Eust.81.5, Tz.H.11.58.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

The pitch could be ὀξύς or βαρύς, like the names of the accents ὀξεῖα, βαρεῖα (ϗ περισπωμένη *φωνή*).

Sharpness in sound (not to confuse with ὀξεῖα/βαρεῖα) is a matter of harmonics produced along the vocal track. If the head resonates, the sound is sharp, if the chest does, it is deep/thick. The tongue is important in this, e.g. placed high sharpens etc. Try to pronounce a long [χ] and move the tongue up and down to hear the change in sound.

[iostrat]

@shaivista

(2) When used as the subordinate (ὑποτακτικόν) in a diphthong it denoted the sound ensuing from the rounded protruding of the lips at the end of this diphthong.

Subordinate vowels didn't have a kind of life of their own, like Erasmus mistakenly suggested; they were pronounced softer and shorter than the main (κύριον) vowels.

The «ου» you wrote is a good example. It was, of course not pronounced [o-i], but more like [ο:u], a long «ου» sound that at the end got softer and even darker.

[amirthanayagamdavid]

@shaivista Zeus! Sorry. Here's to ancient Greek tragedy.

[amirthanayagamdavid]

@shaivista We had a universally positive response to this particular workshop performance at a conference in Olympia in 2002. The conference-goers were almost exclusively native Greek students. The performers here were American fledgling students of Greek working in their spare time for a matter of weeks. For the theory of the accent (which they only occasionally were able to implement), see my OUP book The Dance of the Muses. I am deeply sorry that you were offended.

[maedrosGR]

"Eros,anikate mahan" Eros, unconquerable in battle.it's a little bitter , we still dance like this today but our great civilization is overtrumped by economy crisis and Greece became synonymous το corruption.good for you though,classic is classic.That can't be deleted.

[AinsleysRevenge]

I enjoyed this immensely. Something captivating in the movements and the spoken word. As a student of ancient history, I want to thank you for this taste of ancient Greece; a window into time past.

[godwratherror]

i don t think these guyz have the minimum idea what the text is talking about. It s not some kind of a war dance. It's one of the best passages ever written about love (eros in greek)

[Woeism3]

well do u know a thing about it?

[godwratherror]

I ve studied this piece of art in ancient greek. So yes. I do know a thing or two

[Woeism3]

well good for you.

[amirthanayagamdavid]

@godwratherror If you've read it in Greek, you'll know the opening line is 'Eros, unconquerable in battle'. Also, that the closing line refers to Aphrodite as 'impossible to fight'. This 'piece of art' is in fact a danced poem. The gestures used in the reconstruction are all derived from ancient vases and statuary. There is in fact a great deal of martial imagery associated with the ancient notion of Eros (not just the bow and arrow) that is quite foreign to English-based conceptions of 'love'.