Peripheral Port 12A Rotary Turning Over (Long)

[yumyumtofu]

that's what it sounds like when i get a blowjob.

[rayvdub]

Well I know you must be tired or overly excited of seeing so much question but.

I got a few more :D, I am planning a TII swap on my 86 rx7 (that's not where I'm going) so on the stock N/A engine (housings turned out beautiful) I'm planning to 1.- turbocharging as per your specs on your page. 2.- aggressive porting (No need to pass emissions, I'll explain in a sec) 3.-Do a rotary swap keeping the FI system on a VW Bug (Love em). So would peripheral ports be good on the bug? it's gonna be light.

[aaroncake]

@rayvdub A PP NA would be awesome in the bug. The stock EFI system will be useless though so you'll need a standalone. 300HP NA would be easily done with a good tune. Or, stick wtih side ports, don't port the 6 port irons much, and turbocharge. Keep the aux ports working and use a smallish turbo and you'll have an awesome ~300HP car with a great powerband. I'd suspect a 300HP Bug would be frightening.

[rayvdub]

@aaroncake I think I'm going to turbocharge the NA block, and keep the aux ports working, i am thinking of using boost to open the ports, don't know if it will work though, but should since I think it uses back pressure from the exhaust. I should be able to keep all the stock intake stuff, since I'll have plenty of empty space in the engine bay.

[aaroncake]

@rayvdub Boost and a solenoid controlled by your EMS. You really don't want them open below 3500-3800 RPM. Basically this is my plan with the 13B I built for my Cosmo, with a few other details you'll eventually see in the videos. This I think is the evolution of the 6 port turbo, for a very drivable car, with good low and midrange, excellent fuel economy and the ability to carry the powerband high into the RPM range like the 6 port engines were designed.

[racedriver52]

What is the port in between the 2 yellow rotor housings? is it the intake port?

[aaroncake]

@racedriver52 The stock primary intake ports. For this engine they were left open and then blocked off with a plate when the intake manifold was fabricated.

[DutchDennus]

goood, get that dust in there nice and firm

[ROCKSOLID19]

I did that when I tuned and built my cars. I painted the different parts of the engine in different colours so I can identify a leak if one or several occur and at the same time it made the engine bay look smart.

[rayvdub]

would a peripheral port engine make a bad daily driver??

[aaroncake]

@rayvdub In most people's opinions, yes. A peripheral ported or bridge ported rotary acts like a piston engine with an aggressive cam. Some loss of low end torque, poor vacuum, and high fuel consumption.

[tpvalley]

@aaroncake

why cant a peripheral port with less duration be good on fuel?

and is this engine both peripheral and side port?

[aaroncake]

@tpvalley It is very difficult to get less duration when boring huge holes in that area of the rotor housings. :-) There's always a lot of overlap unless the peripheral ports are very small. The side ports on this engine weren't filled before the engine was built, but afterwards a plate was installed across them. The irons were just in such good shape we didn't want to ruin them for future use in a side port engine.

[tpvalley]

@aaroncake

why not use the side ports aswell for inlet?

[aaroncake]

@tpvalley Too much port area and the flow from the side ports hitting the flow from the peripheral ports at 90 degrees would interfere. Plus there would be so much airflow into the engine that there wouldn't be much velocity until 8000-9000 RPM.

[TomLocura]

@aaroncake but dont they sound fucking awesome!

[demonofrazgriz333]

@rayvdub but since these engines are usually set up with turbochargers, something like an Rx7 wouldn't be too bad.

[guevodeplomo]

all that suction

[mrgixxer100]

sounds like ur mum

[roflex2]

What is stopping someone from leaving the standard side port AND the peripheral port? Surely that would be the ultimate port, dual intakes! it is like adding an extra valve to your piston engine!

[aaroncake]

@roflex2 The flow from the side ports actually interferes with the flow from the peripheral ports. But if you use smaller peripheral ports ("semi" PP) then you can use the side ports as well. The result is an engine that acts much like a big bridge port, but makes a little more power.

[85VWWesty]

now times that by a couple thousand times

[poxperformance]

i think he has PP confsed.. they have low km only cause of water seal failure PP engine will last as lng as the driver looks after it i have one done 70k and still going strong

[GinoJerry86]

what type of different ports are there besides peripheral? and is pport the best?

sorry for the noob question...

[aaroncake]

@GinoJerry86 There are two main classes of ports: side ports and peripheral ports. All Mazda OEM rotary engines for the street are side port. Peripheral porting is generally only used for racing where maximum power is important but not fuel economy, emissions and idle quality.

[Teslafan12]

@aaroncake

And engine life. Peripherally ported engines generally blow and get flooded because the ports are through the coolant channels and need to be rebuilt every 3000 miles or so. But with a stock carb with peripheral porting you can make over 300 hp.

Words cannot express my jealousy. That right there is a stunningly gorgeous motor.

[aaroncake]

@Teslafan12 A properly built peripheral ported engine won't have issues with coolant. The cooling jacket around the port is totally sealed by epoxy and the sleeve itself is press fitted. There are no leaks when things are done correctly. A stock carb can't flow enough air for a 300HP peripheral ported rotary.

[Teslafan12]

@aaroncake

Really? Well prove me wrong that would be awesome if it doesn't give you issues. I'm excited to see that start up. Have you got videos of it running yet?

And my mistake it wasn't a stock carb I saw one on it was a Sterling Nikki. Bit of a difference with the flow rates.

[Teslafan12]

@aaroncake

And engine life. Peripherally ported engines generally blow and get flooded because the ports are through the coolant channels and need to be rebuilt every 3000 miles or so. But with a stock carb with peripheral porting you can make over 300 hp.

Words cannot express my jealousy. That right there is a stunningly gorgeous motor.

[theblackmech]

are they mazda PP housings or "home-made"?

[aaroncake]

@theblackmech They are home made, the holes were machined and sleeves pressed in at a local shop.

[Lito82RX7]

Awesome work bro! You did the housings yourself?

[Primetome]

Cool. Looks like a good build. Well done!

[backintack]

why not use a drill instead of the socket

[aaroncake]

The socket was handy.

[needleonthevinyl]

What's the chain turning from the crank?

[aaroncake]

Oil pump drivechain.

[adriandrifter13]

lol wouldnt it be easier to pull the plugs? badass rotary!

[MrShigotonin]

No sense

[JDMforever11]

i heard the a series lacked torque.and so did the 13b a little.dont know much about the a series.

[weetnietgeen]

these engines dont have valves like i know regular engines have right?

[aaroncake]

Correct. It is actually the rotor itself that opens and closes the exhaust and intake ports as it spins.

[weetnietgeen]

@aaroncake ; alriighty then :) thanx

[therealpodge]

Another cool vid aaroncake....keep it up!!

[bigtank2185]

sounds like a hit-and-miss

[DtoxTNT]

blop blop blop blop ;)

[maniek497]

this is wankel motor

[snaple07]

what are the compression numbers for both front and rear rotors? 125psi +-

[aaroncake]

I don't know. It was never tested.

[SethBishop89]

try gas!

[Einimas]

bodybuilding :D

[lawnmowerman1112]

YAY the swedish color. i am from sweden

[Polar5g]

"We're gonna need a longer ratchet!..." Sweet engine though!

[rednecksinspace]

What's the chain for?

[thedriver216]

Oil pump

[aaroncake]

Damn, beat me to it. I was going to be a smart ass and reply "Timing belt".

[nickg421]

LOL, i'd of belived it.

[dankusking]

Haha one time my friend had me bring over my timing light to advance his timing and i get there and he come to find out he has an older rx-7. Took a while for him to understand why we could not do it.

[aaroncake]

Why couldn't you advance the timing?

[dankusking]

Well not as far as using a timing belt i should say.

[aaroncake]

Oh, you meant "cam" timing and not ignition timing. Then why would you need a timing light and not a degree wheel to adjust the cams that don't exist?

[dankusking]

Exactly, now your getting it.

[SolnaHockey]

WOW:D love Wankels. My teacher got me in to these machines and he is building them for racing and uses those exact colors is it from Lars Bodin in sweden or is this just a Freaky coincidence?:P

[SteffanLlwyd]

Rotary concepts are so beautiful!  Thanks

[GarretSpool69]

wicked color combo haha i like it

[qotsaandsoadfan1]

You've gotta love the simplicity of these little power houses.

[username5431]

colorful lol

[abominableaussieman]

I want it soo bad! How much would an engine like this cost roughly?

[aaroncake]

Building the engine is really not much different from building any rotary. So to put it together, it's about $1200 worth of seals and gaskets. Add about $500 to have the housings machined for peripheral ports. HOWEVER, remember that an intake manifold must be custom fabricated to hand the peripheral ports. That can be very time consuming and expensive if you can't do it yourself.

[abominableaussieman]

ok, thanks for the info

[fajadody2]

is that a 2 cylinder????

[aaroncake]

It's a twin rotor Wankel engine.

[SCOTTIEBOYSTER]

yeah that was real cool

[rey0176]

kool video...wish alot of these assholes who swear they know shit bout these engines can look at this vid and have some sense of it...

[rotarymiata]

Why leave it in storage? I would love to be able to complete my 12APP. I haven't even started it yet. Due to financial issues I can't afford to build a full out race engine for a while. I don't start my new job until the end of May. If you do decide to turbo your 12APP let me know how well it does (numbers) and if you use a carb or fuel injection.

[griplimit]

good compression

[rotarymiata]

All PP engines use a 2in intake port and somewhere around a 1.8in exhaust port. That engine should put out around 200-240 hp without a turbo!I am planning on putting a

12APP in my 1990 miata. With 4.30 gears it should run in the 12 second quater mile range. What do you think about titanium apex seals. I plan to have them custom cut out, their going to be 3mm and one piece.

[kwambartie]

Dunno if the expansion of titanium parts in an engine are the same as conventional materials. Perhaps the rotor housing would wear instead of the seals.

[aaroncake]

All apex seal materials have basically been tried before. There are no discoveries to be made and there are many reasons why titanium is a poor choice.

[ANGRERX]

Hey, considering going to 12APP turbo application too.. just curious if you don't mind saying, what size ports are you using and what shape?

[aaroncake]

Honestly, I don't remember.

[rbecker2007]

NICE!!

[drantman]

wow nice pops :D

Is she up and running yet ? what turbo to do plan to strap in the side ?

[aaroncake]

It's in storage right now. Still deciding on the turbo.

[RedFathom]

you should try some of the new renesis plates. there is less crossover, and it should have a higher hp potential if properly ported.

[aaroncake]

Yeah, umm, this is a peripheral port engine. There's really no other porting style that approaches it for "power potential". Also, the Renesis is kind of a dead end when compared to the old 13B/12A/20B. It's not nearly as suitable for forced induction and in NA form, nearly maxed out from the factory.

[RedFathom]

yeah i know the 6pi dei system is rather useless for forced induction, but i still want to see someone modify one.

the renesis motor has a better low end due to there being no crossover between intake, and exhaust. with the sideport exaust you can change the timing of the ports to almost whatever you want, and even a bridge port will run smooth.

[aaroncake]

The timing of the side ports is actually quite limited, especially on the Renesis irons. Very little is left for porting before you run into seal tracks or the water jackets. The stock ports are almost as big as they can be and bridgeporting them isn't going to happen. Also you lose the upper RPM advantage of a brideport if you don't have the overlap.

[RedFathom]

I'll probably trade Carlos at PR Performance here in town some plates, and housings for a renesis i have to try.

oh, random thought. you should keep the outer ports, and close the peripheral at idle, it would be such a shocker. lotta work tho.

[aaroncake]

There has been some Renesis porting attempted by those on the RX8Club website with poor results. Mazda has not left much work to do. The only thing that can really be done is some cleaning and smoothing.

Semi-PP has been done before as well. Overlap still occurs due to the space between the port and valve so you still get the lumpy idle and distinct sound.

[OMR70]

Hmmmmm...... Dont know about your colour choice there mate. But my PP got hard over that, crank it faster lololol

PS: RodgerCordia, STFU wanker. Go back to ur 21sec heap of shit that gets flogged by grannys excel and stay the hell out of rotaries

[aaroncake]

The colours are Mazda colours. :-)

[My7EatsV8s]

what was your compression ..psi

it relly popped as you cranked it

sounds and looks good

nice 12a

[TheCordiaMASTER]

Isnt there a certain limit to how many times you crank the engine, cos i presume there is no oil in it, besides the assembly lube etc. Wouldnt it be running dry.

PS- delete my previous messege if you wish.

[aaroncake]

It's loaded up with assembly lube and Vaseline. There's no load on any of the mechanical part so it could be cranked quite a lot. Before it's started the first time, a little oil will be squirted through the spark plug holes and the engine will be cranked over to build oil pressure. Unlike any of the big V8s, Mazda's oiling systems are quite good.

[TheCordiaMASTER]

Boost in, apex seals out ha ha.

[aaroncake]

Wow, how insightful. I bow to your obviously superior rotary knowledge.

[celisto001]

seriously thelevman is right those rotaries thorw out more exhuast than any 4 or 6cyl engines that why turbos work

magnifacintly(sp)with rotaries they turn them so easily!

[nitrodr1ft]

the reason why you dont hear of supercharged cars not blowing up is becasue there only efficient on low revving cars and they run piss all boost hence less power

[thelevman]

anyone that says turbo's dont work well on rotaries is an idiot full stop lol, try driving one, then comment.

[DeadH4nd]

lol apex seals

[IceDragon387]

you know i never understood why people thing superchargers can do more than turbos, how can something thats belt driven have less limitations? ive heard of way more turboed engines blowing because the turbo can do more but the engine cant handle it then with a supercharger

[rotahavick69]

ya tool lol why are you useing a rachit???

why no like a rattel-gun woulda done the job lol

nice mota tho sounds like its got wiked compression

big upz cheerz dude

[rotaryoutlaw]

thats awesome man, the colors are a bit cheezy lookin but hey...its a rotary, thats all that matters. how long did it take to build?

[aaroncake]

About an hour.

[troublesum7]

You guys seem to do it differently over there, i was trippin when i saw your other video and you were driving on the other side of the road :D Whats the 12a pp going into? Is it going to be N/A? What seals did you use? Also anyone Who hasn't driven a ported turbo rotary and talks cheap of them, believe me talk is cheap, owning a rotary is expensive lol

[aaroncake]

It's going into a 1st gen RX-7 GSL. The engine will be turbocharged though the exact combination of parts has not been decided on yet. Fuel injection will be via the Megasquirt or Haltech. The seals are stock Mazda.

[mattyg187]

Any updates on this motor?

[aaroncake]

Nope. Won't be installed until sometime this winter.

[locopr1]

Hotmzada14 has his preferrence, that's fine. But none of the facts. IF Supercharging was so much better, Mazda would have introduced the FD as a supercharged rotary engine, not as a twin-turbo. I dont even know if any of the supercharged 12As were factory built? Mazda has a lot of R&D dollars, they would have figured out supercharging was the way to go a long time ago if it were superior to turbos.

[mclukehammer]

also superchargers are heaver than turbos which when on a pully makes it harder to turn and on 12a bridgeports at low revs makes shit all tourque that = less psi till it get to high revs

[mattyg187]

There is nothing wrong with turbocharging a Rotary motor. Turbocharging takes advantage of the high exhaust gas output from the Rotary motor, Therefor spooling larger turbos earlier. If a motor is overheating or pinging it has nothing to do with the forced introduction application - you have other issues. A turbocharged streetport with OEM Mazda seals can put out 400+BHP all day everyday without a issue. Its all in the tuning. The Australians have had great results with turbocharging Rotary's.

[ScotchRB30DET]

Exactly, hence why many people choose to run GT3540R and larger turbo chargers on rotary engines. Oh yeah you forgot that us kiwis arent too bad at building 'tangs either =P

[mattyg187]

Oh yeah, you guys make some nice motors, the PP's are crazy.

[hotmazda14]

uhh wow...you're such an idiot, where do you think the turbo's power comes from? exhaust maybe? *HOT* air flow, why do you think they need intercoolers? if anything, a supercharger would be an advantage to a rotary b/c they already burn a hell of hotter than a piston engine. not to mention superchargeing goes for about half the price.

[aaroncake]

I'm not sure you understand something fundamental. Compressing air heats it up, no matter what method you use to compress it. The majority of head introduced by a turbo or supercharger is due to compressing the air. Pound for pound, a turbocharger is the best way to apply forced induction to a rotary and I see no need to further explain why if you won't believe me. There's a bit of a comedic irony to trying to tell a person who builds peripheral port engines that he doesn't know what he's doing.

[Seedorf020]

The air that goes into the turbo is not the exhaust, its from the atmosphere, the exhaust is only used to spin the compressor wheel i think which in turn sucks more air in through the intake and compresses it and then goes through the intercooler to cool it down cos we all know cold air is more dense and then goes into the inlet manifold.

[gregrach1]

You took the words out of my mouth.

[aaroncake]

Exhaust spins the turbine which is connected to the compressor on a common shaft.

[kiddopocktoole]

Yup, it's easy to get those interchanged. Best way to remember which is which is to keep in mind that the turbo "compresses" the intake air, and that the turbine always drives the compressor.

[hotmazda14]

EVERYTHING huh? even the fact there is no risk of overheating the engine with a supercharger? the simple fact that simple superchargers are good all the way to 7,500 rpm? the simple fact that if the turbos cause pinging of the seals it can destroy the entire engine? mild street port with a supercharger is all you need for a 12a.

[aaroncake]

Boost is boost, whether it comes from a supercharger or a turbocharger. Running lean under both will cause detonation and pop an engine. Most superchargers are highly inefficient compared to a turbocharger and poorly suited for the high revving rotary. The aweful roots blowers that people tend to use are absolutely horrid as far as airflow per size and intake heating.

[aaroncake]

Centrifugal chargers make boost dependant on RPM resulting in a narrow powerband. Properly tuned, the turbo rotary (or any forced induction rotary) is highly reliable.

[aaroncake]

"Overheating" an engine has NOTHING to do with the method of forced induction. If you are overheating, there's something wrong with the cooling system and not the induction system.

[hotmazda14]

i would seriesly not rutbo chagre it, people dont realise just how much of a mistake they're makeing when they turbo rotarys, its extremely hard on them, even with 3 mm apex seals, i have always thought superchargeing was a better alternative for a rotary, the more rpm you spin the more preasure a supercharger will produce, not to mention you dont have to worry about over heating and pinging of the seals.

[aaroncake]

There's not enough space in the comments box to reply fully, so I'll be brief for everyone else who may read this. Everything in hotmazda14's comment is wrong. The exact opposite of what he says is correct with the exception of RPM dependant boost on the supercharger.

[lRapper]

la buesta

[goddamncompsux]

hey man wot did the housings cost yu ?

[aaroncake]

I didn't pay for them, but it was a few hundred (Canadian) for both.