Overhere in Holland a feminist called Hedy D'ancona of the Dutch labourparty even wanted to include female genital mutilation in the National Health Package.
Regarding circumcision: after WWII in the US, many baby boys were circumcised in hospitals, NOT because of religion, but because of cleanliness. During WWII, there were many uncircumcised soldiers who suffered from infections because they could not wash for weeks or months. In battlefield conditions, personal hygiene was simply not possible. The thinking was: circumcise them now so they won't suffer like their fathers if they are at war one day. It was not for religion. It was to help them.
What's happening is that a wave of immigrants are coming to Europe and their ways of life don't always match the Europeans way of life. And so, lots of people get angry for some reason.
What you're describing is what people around me are talking about all the time. The problem however is that it's simply not true. A majority of muslims who come here are not "radical" in any way. They get a job, an apartment, perhaps a car and live with their family here. There's nothing radical about that.
Look at your prison population before you put your head back in the sand. Europe is about to turn into a living nightmare that even the Third Reich couldn't come close to.
there's only two countries that can have immigration with few problems. that's Canada & America. why? because both are countries but neither is a race of people. france is french. germany is german. and they're different and distinct nationalities. i could never go to germany and be a german! i could drink beer, sing songs, wear short pants and suspenders, but i would never be called a german. in Canada everyone here is Canadian, regardless. in europe you would always be from another country.
Bruce Bawer raises legitimate points but much of the conversation in here indicates that they have been distorted or misunderstood. Just because the book is "alarmist" does not mean that it isn't true.
Anyone else aside from beebobox and McCropper actually read the book?
It's worth the time -- Bawer lives in Europe (Norway and The Netherlands) and has done a thorough job of documenting his claims.
Why not take a couple of hours and read it? It's not that long...
it's a fast read and interesting. i'm half way thru it. he gives first hand insight and covers all bases. hey, a Canadian politician said last year that we should not worry about our population getting older, dropping, or the brain drain of the best and brightest, "because they are quickly replaced through immigration". LOL!
however, he is a bit of an american apologist. although he is right about many euros who trash the US out of jealousy, the US is not blameless for South American massacres. still a good read that will interest you or infuriate you.
When you attribute something to the religion of Islam, please provide an authentic evidence from the text...Clearly you are not able to produce such a thing, and therefore your only way to express your misguided hatred through lies - you are not the first and not the last. you are just part of the trials and tribulations.
sir, u called shariah a brutal law, but its effectivness can be measured by just looking at the crime rates difference between USA n Saudia and i know many peace loving westerners who like to live in that society. Just prove be by facts y is not it the effective system?
Right! I'd luuuuve to live in Saudi Arabia -- 'cause I love wear giant black bags over my head and body. And I would just love to be a captive in my own home until some man took pity on me and escorted me around town. And, oh, yeah -- let's not forget the free stonings for having my boyfriend spend the night!
Oh yes, baby! Those Saudis really have it going for 'em....
black bag over body --- sorry walking half naked around the city only to make boys desperated to rape is not part of our culture.. tht is a part of modesty, unfortunately no body teached you.
About the captive part u take as slavery our women take it as a guard who can protect them from any bad offence, if britney always has a guard with her tht means she is a slave? imagine how much she pays n here we have duty to guard for free ;).
It's weird to us how Islamic people blame the horniness of boys and men upon women's attire. Islamic men seem overly-obsessed with sex. Boys in normal societies do not rape just because they see a woman's arm, leg, butt, or breast.
And "Britney" -- under Sharia she would have been murdered a long time ago.
You guys may have been able to take your Sharia crap to Europe -- but we in the USA will not put up with it.
The stonings...lol is it more humane to give a life time jail and ruin is 50 yrs of life or kill him for once in a way that other also take accoiunt of the punishment and fear.
Crime stats are famously inacurrate, since they only count reported crimes, and usually reflect the willingness to report crime rather than the actual number of crimes committed.
Women are less likely to report being raped in Muslim countries, since they're viewed suspiciously as if maybe they were being seductive, or were in the company os strange men.
read the book. found it to be very informative and educational, since i live in one of the 2 countries mentioned in the book that have strict immigration laws, so we have very little immigration here, i am in a way sheltered from information about these problems all though as of late i've been reading a bit about problems in sweden and denmark
i highly recommend the book, but would like to remind people that there is a bit of generalizing and exaggeration in it.
Marxists, Stalinists, etc. do not "worship" the state. Communists of all stripes call for an eventual END to the state system, history is not on your side, big boy.
I am not sure if this really happens. I don't think that in BraSil people see haveing many children as any kind of insurance of care in old age. Most families here have two children, includeing my own. And I think Europe adopts the blood nationality criterion because they think they are better than everyone else. If you were raised in a country, thinks in its language, you are culturally their nacional for me.
Could you please give me some references of these places where Sharia law operates independantly of a countries law in Europe... To my knowledge it usually operates along side "actual" law and is mainly conserned with family and personal matters and in resolving minor disputes... Not by the way that I am, as an Atheist (and UK citizen) in ANY way a fan of anything I'm seeing regards the attitude of Islam or the European fears in confronting it...
Perhaps you might consider the possibility that these immigrants do not WANT to accept Western values. That they LIKE their own values, which they brought with them from the oppressive, famine-ridden, war-torn countries they were forced to flee. That they moved to Europe, not out of infatuation with Western culture, but out of NECESSITY.
And that all we crazy "Marxists" do is respect people's right to their opinions.
"That they moved to Europe, not out of infatuation with Western culture, but out of NECESSITY."
Perhaps you're wrong. Perhaps they'd be happy to adopt a civilized way of life. Perhaps they ARE infatuated with Western culture, the culture of freedom and choice.
Well, yes, perhaps I'm wrong. But since I actually live in Europe, and actually see, hear and talk to all these immigrants, whom you've only heard about from some crazy alarmist book, each and every day, I'd count me a greater authority on the subject.
And the truth is, simply, that when you equal "Western" with "civilized", and imply that "nonwestern" means "barbarian", you're being racist. There, I said it.
I do not wish to say that Europe does not have an immigrant problem. But your simple equation of immigrants happily arriving here to adopt Western values, "Marxists" forcing them to stay ethnic, is simply uneducated. The failure of European immigration policy is a failure of all of European society.
Oh, another thing! When you say "Western" values, you do of course actually mean AMERICAN values; for yes: in Europe, we ARE quite a few who still question the greatness of that immortal god-emperor Capital. But, one might wonder, if these immigrants really wanna adopt Western (i e, American) values, why aren't they immigrating to AMERICA instead? I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
"your simple equation of immigrants happily arriving here to adopt Western values, "Marxists" forcing them to stay ethnic, is simply uneducated"
You live there and can't see it. Doesn't surprise me. Part of the problem is that most Europeans can't think critically. The ones who can have largely moved to America.
Yes, and I'm sure you represent the pinnacle of American critical thinking. God bless America... cos if that's so, it's gonna need all the help it can get.
Well, in one breath you tell us that Europeans oppress immigrants because of our "caste system" (never mind that you Americans also oppress your ethnic minorities... you just don't call them 'immigrants'). And in the next breath you inform us that our Marxist desire NOT to oppress these immigrants make them all proud and uppity and terrorist.
It seems we're damned if we do, and we're damned if we don't. But at least we try.
Multiculuralist ideology is not "marxist", it's a postmodern i. in the sense that it denies the notion of progress in human history. No need for good ol' anti-communism here.
MC is a mix of "post-colonialism" and something like reverse racism and ethnic self-hatred. This is due Europes failed history of ethnicity-based nationbuilding as well as imperialism. The US transcends m.o.l. ethnicity as a melting pot, the EU is becoming a salad bowl, guess where you taste first the rotten ingredient?
Multiculturalism was developed by Marxist who wanted to explain why marxs idea that the proletariat would rise and "cast off their chains" did not happen. There is a great video by William Lind that explains the origin of MC.
If you use this word like that "marxism" becomes an empty signifier, and later a loaded term to be used as an insult. (short exercise: if "the marxists" acknowledge that Marx' theory is wrong, how are they still marxists?) thats the whole point of Linds constructed "cultural marxism", a bugaboo to get people to buy in his ideology.
Listen to Hirsi Ali to get an honest criticism of MC.
You ref, to Dawkins, Hitchens and all, as "militant atheists". But their is no militarism involved!! They use mere words, spoken and written, to argue their positions. No call to violence. No call for boycotts, just using evidence and arguments to advance that their position is correct!!
I think this is the "boo hoo, you said by faith is wrong so you're bad" arguement.
I 99% agree. However, you have heard of "militant feminists", right? I don't think any of us picture feminists using violence or weapons. Oh, wow, actually. That would be kinda hot. I'm going to go find some chicks with guns videos. Nevermind.
Overhere in Holland a feminist called Hedy D'ancona of the Dutch labourparty even wanted to include female genital mutilation in the National Health Package.
JosLutgens 4 months ago
Regarding circumcision: after WWII in the US, many baby boys were circumcised in hospitals, NOT because of religion, but because of cleanliness. During WWII, there were many uncircumcised soldiers who suffered from infections because they could not wash for weeks or months. In battlefield conditions, personal hygiene was simply not possible. The thinking was: circumcise them now so they won't suffer like their fathers if they are at war one day. It was not for religion. It was to help them.
MrPinksBane 1 year ago
Go to Ireland and call the locals "Marxists".
They will beat the life out of you.
SinnFein4ever 1 year ago
What's happening is that a wave of immigrants are coming to Europe and their ways of life don't always match the Europeans way of life. And so, lots of people get angry for some reason.
What you're describing is what people around me are talking about all the time. The problem however is that it's simply not true. A majority of muslims who come here are not "radical" in any way. They get a job, an apartment, perhaps a car and live with their family here. There's nothing radical about that.
Paddis92 2 years ago
Look at your prison population before you put your head back in the sand. Europe is about to turn into a living nightmare that even the Third Reich couldn't come close to.
FrankinHolland 2 years ago
Whenever someone uses the word 'militant'(as in "militant atheist movement"), I want to know exactly what they mean. Would you care to comment?
lduych 2 years ago
there's only two countries that can have immigration with few problems. that's Canada & America. why? because both are countries but neither is a race of people. france is french. germany is german. and they're different and distinct nationalities. i could never go to germany and be a german! i could drink beer, sing songs, wear short pants and suspenders, but i would never be called a german. in Canada everyone here is Canadian, regardless. in europe you would always be from another country.
CrackerJackLee 2 years ago
I could not agree with you more.
DerivativeXY 2 years ago
Bruce Bawer raises legitimate points but much of the conversation in here indicates that they have been distorted or misunderstood. Just because the book is "alarmist" does not mean that it isn't true.
Anyone else aside from beebobox and McCropper actually read the book?
It's worth the time -- Bawer lives in Europe (Norway and The Netherlands) and has done a thorough job of documenting his claims.
Why not take a couple of hours and read it? It's not that long...
BerthaAndMaude 2 years ago
it's a fast read and interesting. i'm half way thru it. he gives first hand insight and covers all bases. hey, a Canadian politician said last year that we should not worry about our population getting older, dropping, or the brain drain of the best and brightest, "because they are quickly replaced through immigration". LOL!
CrackerJackLee 2 years ago
however, he is a bit of an american apologist. although he is right about many euros who trash the US out of jealousy, the US is not blameless for South American massacres. still a good read that will interest you or infuriate you.
CrackerJackLee 2 years ago
When you attribute something to the religion of Islam, please provide an authentic evidence from the text...Clearly you are not able to produce such a thing, and therefore your only way to express your misguided hatred through lies - you are not the first and not the last. you are just part of the trials and tribulations.
BrotherHatt 2 years ago
'Europe needs immigrants because their population is falling'.
God you're a genius, sir. Please come to Oxford and lecture.
11FotoFlame11 2 years ago
sir, u called shariah a brutal law, but its effectivness can be measured by just looking at the crime rates difference between USA n Saudia and i know many peace loving westerners who like to live in that society. Just prove be by facts y is not it the effective system?
lolism123 2 years ago
Right! I'd luuuuve to live in Saudi Arabia -- 'cause I love wear giant black bags over my head and body. And I would just love to be a captive in my own home until some man took pity on me and escorted me around town. And, oh, yeah -- let's not forget the free stonings for having my boyfriend spend the night!
Oh yes, baby! Those Saudis really have it going for 'em....
BerthaAndMaude 2 years ago
black bag over body --- sorry walking half naked around the city only to make boys desperated to rape is not part of our culture.. tht is a part of modesty, unfortunately no body teached you.
About the captive part u take as slavery our women take it as a guard who can protect them from any bad offence, if britney always has a guard with her tht means she is a slave? imagine how much she pays n here we have duty to guard for free ;).
imharis87 2 years ago
It's weird to us how Islamic people blame the horniness of boys and men upon women's attire. Islamic men seem overly-obsessed with sex. Boys in normal societies do not rape just because they see a woman's arm, leg, butt, or breast.
And "Britney" -- under Sharia she would have been murdered a long time ago.
You guys may have been able to take your Sharia crap to Europe -- but we in the USA will not put up with it.
If you want Sharia, go back to Islamistan.
BerthaAndMaude 2 years ago 3
The stonings...lol is it more humane to give a life time jail and ruin is 50 yrs of life or kill him for once in a way that other also take accoiunt of the punishment and fear.
imharis87 2 years ago
Please don't exagerrate.... fornication only gets you 100 lashes, while adultery gets you dead. ;)
Re5Publica 2 years ago
Crime stats are famously inacurrate, since they only count reported crimes, and usually reflect the willingness to report crime rather than the actual number of crimes committed.
Women are less likely to report being raped in Muslim countries, since they're viewed suspiciously as if maybe they were being seductive, or were in the company os strange men.
Re5Publica 2 years ago
read the book. found it to be very informative and educational, since i live in one of the 2 countries mentioned in the book that have strict immigration laws, so we have very little immigration here, i am in a way sheltered from information about these problems all though as of late i've been reading a bit about problems in sweden and denmark
i highly recommend the book, but would like to remind people that there is a bit of generalizing and exaggeration in it.
beebobox 2 years ago
Marxist Islam?! But Marxists are atheists! No way would Muslims support Marxism.
patrickthesaint 2 years ago
"But Marxists are atheists! No way would Muslims support Marxism."
Shows what you know.
But remember, Marxists aren't atheists - they worship the state.
MrCropper 2 years ago
Stalinists worship the state, not Marxists.
patrickthesaint 2 years ago
"Stalinists worship the state, not Marxists."
Technically, Marxists say the state will wither away. In actuality, they worship it. History is on my side, big boy.
MrCropper 2 years ago
History shows Muslims fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan. To be frank, I wasn't a fan of either side.
patrickthesaint 2 years ago
Marxists, Stalinists, etc. do not "worship" the state. Communists of all stripes call for an eventual END to the state system, history is not on your side, big boy.
XXXMRcoolkidXXX 1 year ago
@XXXMRcoolkidXXX
Marxist and Islam are both collective ideologies. They are 2 of a kind.
History will never be on you side stupid boy!
JosLutgens 4 months ago
@JosLutgens You disagree with what? At what point did I ever (and I mean EVER) mention Islam in my statement? You need to learn how to read.
XXXMRcoolkidXXX 4 months ago
I am not sure if this really happens. I don't think that in BraSil people see haveing many children as any kind of insurance of care in old age. Most families here have two children, includeing my own. And I think Europe adopts the blood nationality criterion because they think they are better than everyone else. If you were raised in a country, thinks in its language, you are culturally their nacional for me.
OnyonKnight 3 years ago
Could you please give me some references of these places where Sharia law operates independantly of a countries law in Europe... To my knowledge it usually operates along side "actual" law and is mainly conserned with family and personal matters and in resolving minor disputes... Not by the way that I am, as an Atheist (and UK citizen) in ANY way a fan of anything I'm seeing regards the attitude of Islam or the European fears in confronting it...
RodHullIOnceWasHim 3 years ago
Can you give a summary of this video?
faro0485 3 years ago
Summary:
Fascist Islam is taking over Europe, and heading here.
MrCropper 3 years ago
"Fascist Islam is taking over Europe, and heading here."
Interesting.
I'll refer a book "terrorism and the illuminati".
faro0485 3 years ago
"And in the next breath you inform us that our Marxist desire NOT to oppress these immigrants make them all proud and uppity and terrorist."
There is no Marxist desire to NOT suppress - there is a Marxist desire to prevent the immigrants from accepting western values, to remain "ethnic".
MrCropper 3 years ago
Perhaps you might consider the possibility that these immigrants do not WANT to accept Western values. That they LIKE their own values, which they brought with them from the oppressive, famine-ridden, war-torn countries they were forced to flee. That they moved to Europe, not out of infatuation with Western culture, but out of NECESSITY.
And that all we crazy "Marxists" do is respect people's right to their opinions.
Hamerax 3 years ago
"That they moved to Europe, not out of infatuation with Western culture, but out of NECESSITY."
Perhaps you're wrong. Perhaps they'd be happy to adopt a civilized way of life. Perhaps they ARE infatuated with Western culture, the culture of freedom and choice.
MrCropper 3 years ago
Well, yes, perhaps I'm wrong. But since I actually live in Europe, and actually see, hear and talk to all these immigrants, whom you've only heard about from some crazy alarmist book, each and every day, I'd count me a greater authority on the subject.
And the truth is, simply, that when you equal "Western" with "civilized", and imply that "nonwestern" means "barbarian", you're being racist. There, I said it.
Hamerax 3 years ago
I do not wish to say that Europe does not have an immigrant problem. But your simple equation of immigrants happily arriving here to adopt Western values, "Marxists" forcing them to stay ethnic, is simply uneducated. The failure of European immigration policy is a failure of all of European society.
Hamerax 3 years ago
Oh, another thing! When you say "Western" values, you do of course actually mean AMERICAN values; for yes: in Europe, we ARE quite a few who still question the greatness of that immortal god-emperor Capital. But, one might wonder, if these immigrants really wanna adopt Western (i e, American) values, why aren't they immigrating to AMERICA instead? I leave that as an exercise for the reader.
Hamerax 3 years ago
""Western" values, you do of course actually mean AMERICAN values"
True, Europe doesn't value freedom, they've only had it imposed on them for 70 years. Now they'll get what they want and deserve: fascism.
MrCropper 3 years ago
"your simple equation of immigrants happily arriving here to adopt Western values, "Marxists" forcing them to stay ethnic, is simply uneducated"
You live there and can't see it. Doesn't surprise me. Part of the problem is that most Europeans can't think critically. The ones who can have largely moved to America.
MrCropper 3 years ago
Yes, and I'm sure you represent the pinnacle of American critical thinking. God bless America... cos if that's so, it's gonna need all the help it can get.
Hamerax 3 years ago
"when you equal "Western" with "civilized", and imply that "nonwestern" means "barbarian", you're being racist."
No, I'm being a realist. By the way, the Nazis would qualify as barbarian, as would Muslims.
MrCropper 3 years ago
Dude! You gotta decide! Do we have a cast system, or are we evil commies?
Hamerax 3 years ago
"Dude! You gotta decide! Do we have a cast system, or are we evil commies?"
"Caste" system?
Remind me of the difference.
MrCropper 3 years ago
Yes, "caste" system. Of course. Mea culpa.
Well, in one breath you tell us that Europeans oppress immigrants because of our "caste system" (never mind that you Americans also oppress your ethnic minorities... you just don't call them 'immigrants'). And in the next breath you inform us that our Marxist desire NOT to oppress these immigrants make them all proud and uppity and terrorist.
It seems we're damned if we do, and we're damned if we don't. But at least we try.
Hamerax 3 years ago
You can easily obtain the Belgian, Dutch, German .... or whatever nationality.
Ulfbarnen 3 years ago
cant believe you are discussing this dumb shit
taygeta7 3 years ago
this is a real misrepresentation of europe, there are certainly loads of problems but this is just a bit stupid
judasnils 3 years ago
I agree with Mr. Cropper, the new Voltaire!
Signofthedollar 3 years ago
You claim that Hitchens said
"You need religion to motivate you to do a terrible thing".
This must be your mindnumbingly stupid version of Hitchens QUOTING physisist Steven Weinberg as saying:
"With or without religion, good people will do good, and evil people will do evil. But for good people to do evil, that takes religion."
Your lying quote is just dumb.
Why is this not cut away from the final edit?
CognosSquare 3 years ago
i have to agree this guy is a dumb shit.
Phalsphayh 3 years ago 2
HITCHENS: "But for good people to do evil, that takes religion.""
ME QUOTING HITCHENS: "You need religion to motivate you to do a terrible thing"
What was my motive in this deceptive lie?
MrCropper 3 years ago
You need AN AUTHORITY to motivate you to do evil...
eventide925 3 years ago
Multiculuralist ideology is not "marxist", it's a postmodern i. in the sense that it denies the notion of progress in human history. No need for good ol' anti-communism here.
MC is a mix of "post-colonialism" and something like reverse racism and ethnic self-hatred. This is due Europes failed history of ethnicity-based nationbuilding as well as imperialism. The US transcends m.o.l. ethnicity as a melting pot, the EU is becoming a salad bowl, guess where you taste first the rotten ingredient?
truestefq 3 years ago 3
Multiculturalism was developed by Marxist who wanted to explain why marxs idea that the proletariat would rise and "cast off their chains" did not happen. There is a great video by William Lind that explains the origin of MC.
WarVideo 3 years ago 4
If you use this word like that "marxism" becomes an empty signifier, and later a loaded term to be used as an insult. (short exercise: if "the marxists" acknowledge that Marx' theory is wrong, how are they still marxists?) thats the whole point of Linds constructed "cultural marxism", a bugaboo to get people to buy in his ideology.
Listen to Hirsi Ali to get an honest criticism of MC.
truestefq 3 years ago
You ref, to Dawkins, Hitchens and all, as "militant atheists". But their is no militarism involved!! They use mere words, spoken and written, to argue their positions. No call to violence. No call for boycotts, just using evidence and arguments to advance that their position is correct!!
I think this is the "boo hoo, you said by faith is wrong so you're bad" arguement.
stevekap8 3 years ago 2
I 99% agree. However, you have heard of "militant feminists", right? I don't think any of us picture feminists using violence or weapons. Oh, wow, actually. That would be kinda hot. I'm going to go find some chicks with guns videos. Nevermind.
DaveGrossmanSoloBass 3 years ago
Except there were militant feminists who used violence and sabotage...
PPartisan 3 years ago
These feminists are not really militant. The militant vegan movement for example IS actually militant.
CognosSquare 3 years ago
Thats quite true, I actually wrote a little psychology paper that compared radical religous groups to radical vegans.
FoxHatesMe 3 years ago 2
*claws at* my love!!! you never return my calls...any of them...*faints*
(translation: good to have you back)
thinkmorepink 3 years ago