Was Jesus created? Yes, Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
@sungate153 If you do some reasearch, you'll find out fast enough which was the prevailing doctrine in the Christian Church for its first five hundred years. Before you call that "my own version of jesus-ism", you should read the writings of those early church fathers and Paul the apostle. Don't speak about things you know nothing of...
This is where I just sit back and laugh my ass off while I watch the thousand different camps of believers all confidently quote a passage of scripture in defense of their brand of theology.
The only thing this proves is that the bible is at best hopelessly inconsistent & at worst utterly incoherent.
The good news: No matter what your view is on ANY subject, you can find a bible passage that will show your's is the correct view!
@LetReasonPrevail1 thats no different then you looking in a science book to prove a point, which you have not done the experiment on, just like theists you are talking other peoples word on it.
Your response is terrifically fallacious, and your comparison is completely erroneous
The fact that the bible as it is written is open to untold numbers of interpretations is nothing at all like considering a scientific study without having done the experiment myself
And regardless, scientific studies are never claimed to be authored by divine revelation from the creator of existence. As such, believers have burdened the bible with a higher bar of consistentcy that it falls woefully short of
Trying to equivocate science with biblical interpretation is an all-too-common knee-jerk reaction of theists, and it exposes the massive insecurity that they have regarding the intellectual grounding of their beliefs.
Said another way: Deep down you know that your beliefs in the imaginery are silly and irrational, so you seek to make all other beliefs equally irrational and baseless, so that your superstitious nonsense doesn't stick out so much as the foolishness that it is.
This guy is making a fool of himself. "Πρωτότοκος" means first-born. (Πρώτος=First + Τίκτω=I give birth). Psalm 89:27 is prophecy about Jesus. It doesn't even mention Jesse. He clearly reads "Pre-eminence" between the lines. How about Colossians 1:18? In what sense is Πρωτότοκος used there? But let's say it means pre-eminent. He is the pre-eminent of all creation. Wait, the pre-eminent of what?!
@bluefish704 Psalm 89 is not about Jesus, it says in v20 "I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him..." and is still refering to him in verse 27. Firstborn in this sense is not "birthorder" but "birthright". Jesus was the heir of all creation, it was for him and for his glory. Besides you don't build a doctrine on one verse. You interpret scripture with scripture, and dont read into the text what is not there. I can easily triple you "proof texts" to show he is God.
@sleepy4031 Interchange on the object of adress is most usual when quoting prophecy (Psalm 8, Ezek. 28). It can just as well be Jesus and it most likely is, given the usage of πρωτότοκος throughout scripture (Gen. 43:33) as well as it's etymology. Jesus is indeed the heir of all creation. He was first in birthorder thus having this birthright. The doctrine is not built on one verse, it is corraborated (Prov. 8:22 and Col. 1:18 usage of πρωτότοκος again applied to Jesus in the sense of order).
@bluefish704 Once again, you take the verses out of context. Prov 8:22 is referring to 'wisdom', not Jesus. (see: v12). Hebrews 1 shows that Jesus is God (v8) and that he was GIVEN an inheritence (v4) ie birthright. Gn 43:33 is again only one verse. I can show you a verse in Psalm 89 et. al. that show firstborn can also mean not the first begotten. Nevertheless, your interpreting scripture in light of your doctrine and not other scripture. The bible clearly teaches Jesus is God, and not created.
@sleepy4031 You dummy, I know that Prov. 8:22 refears to wisdom. Here the wisdom of God is personified as Jesus. This isn't some whacky unitarianist interprertation. It's a common place. Look it up somewhere. Hebrews 1:4 says that he is above the angels but nothing to identify him with God. Couldn't agree more. Jesus is the most high of all creation, the only direct creation of God. He truly is a god above the other gods (Psalm 82:6, 1 Cor: 8-5,6).
@bluefish704 Believe that heresy all you want, it's not biblical. I can take Ps 14:1 out of context and say there is no God, but it doesn't make it right. Just because you want to try to manipulate to make Jesus a creature, that's your problem on judgement day when your staring face to face with Almighty God. If your going to say you believe the bible, read it and study it instead of picking it for verses. There are 100 bible scholars that could destroy you with your eisogetical nonsense.
@sleepy4031 Why are you mentioning my person so much? Anyway, I won't puss the subject further unless you want me to. A scholar's job is to study, investigate, form opinions on certain data and the test them. It's not to destroy people. I realize that I represent an unpopular view. But you can watch a debate between a JW and one of your most appreciated reformed theologians. Here is the first part. . . watch?v=2C2zr4Ov5js
@bluefish704 I guess you just ignore the verses where Jesus is directly called God, claims to be God, where he is worshipped, where he shares the shame title as God, where he is given the roles of God, snd other verse i could "proof text" to you that shows he is God. But ofcourse you wouldn't know any of that because you don't read your bible, your organization reads it for you and tells you what to believe. All you know are proof texts to prove a fallacious unbiblical heretical doctrine
Wow your reading mythology as fact. If Jesus is God, why would God sacrifise him. That is like sacrifising one's self to there self. How is that even a sacrifise? If God made pain it should not even have an effect on him. Why would he need to kill his own self just to circumnavigate rules he made up. Stop blaming this on our earlier generations (adam and eve sinning). We would never punish a child today for something there parents do, it is just not moral.
@yodeboubtripin it would probably help if you understood the trinity correctly. Jesus is God and is the only person possible or willing to die for you. No creature can do that. He could feel pain because he allowed himself to feel it, Heb 4:15, he was also a man who could feel pain, get tired, be hungry etc. so that he could symothise with us. If you read the new testament, it isn't hard to to see this and understand it. The reason your struggeling is because you have been brainwashed by the WT.
Was Jesus created? Yes, Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
SkinnyAndShort 2 months ago
@sungate153 If you do some reasearch, you'll find out fast enough which was the prevailing doctrine in the Christian Church for its first five hundred years. Before you call that "my own version of jesus-ism", you should read the writings of those early church fathers and Paul the apostle. Don't speak about things you know nothing of...
Cutie9326 3 months ago
@sungate153 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, they will both fall into a pit..."
Cutie9326 3 months ago
Why don't we all translate the bible until it says exactly what we want it to say?
Seems like the best way to avoid further 'confusion'.
Hufflewaffle 4 months ago
Excellent!
Drumhyper1 4 months ago
Of course, this is the ONLY TIME the Bible has ever contradicted itself, right?
wait
ah shit
Th1sWasATriumph 6 months ago
What is awesome is that Jesus left an empty tomb & is coming back. Now, that's AWESOME!
nowaydudebook 6 months ago
This is where I just sit back and laugh my ass off while I watch the thousand different camps of believers all confidently quote a passage of scripture in defense of their brand of theology.
The only thing this proves is that the bible is at best hopelessly inconsistent & at worst utterly incoherent.
The good news: No matter what your view is on ANY subject, you can find a bible passage that will show your's is the correct view!
Isn't that awesome?!?!
LetReasonPrevail1 7 months ago
@LetReasonPrevail1 thats no different then you looking in a science book to prove a point, which you have not done the experiment on, just like theists you are talking other peoples word on it.
s1lvrinferno 5 months ago
Your response is terrifically fallacious, and your comparison is completely erroneous
The fact that the bible as it is written is open to untold numbers of interpretations is nothing at all like considering a scientific study without having done the experiment myself
And regardless, scientific studies are never claimed to be authored by divine revelation from the creator of existence. As such, believers have burdened the bible with a higher bar of consistentcy that it falls woefully short of
LetReasonPrevail1 4 months ago
@LetReasonPrevail1 can you show me the fossil records showing the transition between micro and macro evolution?
s1lvrinferno 4 months ago
@s1lvrinferno
Trying to equivocate science with biblical interpretation is an all-too-common knee-jerk reaction of theists, and it exposes the massive insecurity that they have regarding the intellectual grounding of their beliefs.
Said another way: Deep down you know that your beliefs in the imaginery are silly and irrational, so you seek to make all other beliefs equally irrational and baseless, so that your superstitious nonsense doesn't stick out so much as the foolishness that it is.
LetReasonPrevail1 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LetReasonPrevail1 way to not answer my question lmfao
s1lvrinferno 4 months ago
@LetReasonPrevail1 drdino.com
InPsalm1611 3 months ago
This guy is making a fool of himself. "Πρωτότοκος" means first-born. (Πρώτος=First + Τίκτω=I give birth). Psalm 89:27 is prophecy about Jesus. It doesn't even mention Jesse. He clearly reads "Pre-eminence" between the lines. How about Colossians 1:18? In what sense is Πρωτότοκος used there? But let's say it means pre-eminent. He is the pre-eminent of all creation. Wait, the pre-eminent of what?!
bluefish704 10 months ago
@bluefish704 Psalm 89 is not about Jesus, it says in v20 "I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him..." and is still refering to him in verse 27. Firstborn in this sense is not "birthorder" but "birthright". Jesus was the heir of all creation, it was for him and for his glory. Besides you don't build a doctrine on one verse. You interpret scripture with scripture, and dont read into the text what is not there. I can easily triple you "proof texts" to show he is God.
sleepy4031 9 months ago
@sleepy4031 Interchange on the object of adress is most usual when quoting prophecy (Psalm 8, Ezek. 28). It can just as well be Jesus and it most likely is, given the usage of πρωτότοκος throughout scripture (Gen. 43:33) as well as it's etymology. Jesus is indeed the heir of all creation. He was first in birthorder thus having this birthright. The doctrine is not built on one verse, it is corraborated (Prov. 8:22 and Col. 1:18 usage of πρωτότοκος again applied to Jesus in the sense of order).
bluefish704 9 months ago
@bluefish704 Once again, you take the verses out of context. Prov 8:22 is referring to 'wisdom', not Jesus. (see: v12). Hebrews 1 shows that Jesus is God (v8) and that he was GIVEN an inheritence (v4) ie birthright. Gn 43:33 is again only one verse. I can show you a verse in Psalm 89 et. al. that show firstborn can also mean not the first begotten. Nevertheless, your interpreting scripture in light of your doctrine and not other scripture. The bible clearly teaches Jesus is God, and not created.
sleepy4031 9 months ago
@sleepy4031 You dummy, I know that Prov. 8:22 refears to wisdom. Here the wisdom of God is personified as Jesus. This isn't some whacky unitarianist interprertation. It's a common place. Look it up somewhere. Hebrews 1:4 says that he is above the angels but nothing to identify him with God. Couldn't agree more. Jesus is the most high of all creation, the only direct creation of God. He truly is a god above the other gods (Psalm 82:6, 1 Cor: 8-5,6).
bluefish704 9 months ago
@bluefish704 Believe that heresy all you want, it's not biblical. I can take Ps 14:1 out of context and say there is no God, but it doesn't make it right. Just because you want to try to manipulate to make Jesus a creature, that's your problem on judgement day when your staring face to face with Almighty God. If your going to say you believe the bible, read it and study it instead of picking it for verses. There are 100 bible scholars that could destroy you with your eisogetical nonsense.
sleepy4031 9 months ago
@sleepy4031 Why are you mentioning my person so much? Anyway, I won't puss the subject further unless you want me to. A scholar's job is to study, investigate, form opinions on certain data and the test them. It's not to destroy people. I realize that I represent an unpopular view. But you can watch a debate between a JW and one of your most appreciated reformed theologians. Here is the first part. . . watch?v=2C2zr4Ov5js
bluefish704 9 months ago
@bluefish704 I guess you just ignore the verses where Jesus is directly called God, claims to be God, where he is worshipped, where he shares the shame title as God, where he is given the roles of God, snd other verse i could "proof text" to you that shows he is God. But ofcourse you wouldn't know any of that because you don't read your bible, your organization reads it for you and tells you what to believe. All you know are proof texts to prove a fallacious unbiblical heretical doctrine
sleepy4031 9 months ago
Wow your reading mythology as fact. If Jesus is God, why would God sacrifise him. That is like sacrifising one's self to there self. How is that even a sacrifise? If God made pain it should not even have an effect on him. Why would he need to kill his own self just to circumnavigate rules he made up. Stop blaming this on our earlier generations (adam and eve sinning). We would never punish a child today for something there parents do, it is just not moral.
yodeboubtripin 11 months ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
@yodeboubtripin I don't you think you know what you are talking about...
ronnniex 10 months ago
@yodeboubtripin it would probably help if you understood the trinity correctly. Jesus is God and is the only person possible or willing to die for you. No creature can do that. He could feel pain because he allowed himself to feel it, Heb 4:15, he was also a man who could feel pain, get tired, be hungry etc. so that he could symothise with us. If you read the new testament, it isn't hard to to see this and understand it. The reason your struggeling is because you have been brainwashed by the WT.
sleepy4031 9 months ago
Yes! Yes!
AMOS2809 11 months ago
Wow very professional- I like!
michaba03m 1 year ago