@jotathnoble Part25:..to give Wilbur his pocket watch, but Wilbur refused and instead, pulled out his pocket watch and gave it to the old man.
This book I mentioned called "From The Ground Up" is filled from cover to cover with stories like this, all taken from the thousands of letters that were written by those involved at the time, the Wright brothers alone had over 31,000 documents that are currently archived at the Franklyn Intitute over in America and I have read through most of them.
@jotathnoble Part24: ...picked the guy out of the crowd (by this time 10,000 strong) and asked him if he would like to go for a ride! The old man said yes and Wilbur set a world's record that day for flying with a passenger for 10m30sec. In Wilbur's letter home to Orville about that day, he commented that the old gentleman, who couldn't speak any English, was overwhelmed by the experience and kissed Wilbur on both cheeks after, with tears of joy streaming down his face. The old man tried to...
@jotathnoble Part23:..bicycles from as far away as Paris, 185km to the north. There was a 68 year old gentleman that had made the trip from Paris twice, on his bicycle, that Hart O. Berg told Wilbur about. Wilbur didn't fly every day, but these enthusasists would show every day, hoping to catch a glimpse of Wilbur flying his machine. When Hart told Wilbur about the older gentleman who had ridden his bicycle from Paris for the second time, hoping to see Wilbur and his machine, Wilbur...
@jotathnoble Part22: ...was so difficult and required several hours of training to handle, Wilbur was stuck with having to do all the flying himself. Orville, the world's only other pilot at the time, was busy flying the military version of the Flyer III at Ft Myer, Virginia, so Wilbur was on his own for several months. One morning, when Wilbur left his hotel early in the morning to ride a bicycle around LeMans, he was greated with nearly 2,000 cheering fans, some who had ridden their...
@jotathnoble Part 21:...with their invention, it seemed that the whole of Europe was ascending on France and all wishing to catch a glimpse of Wilbur and his flying machine. By reading through all of the personal letters from Wilbur, mostly to his brother Orville, you can gain a real insight into the kind of person he was. He was at times overwhelmed by all the attention paid him even to the point of he being embarassed. Wilbur was a scientist, not an aviator, but because flying their machine..
@jotathnoble Part20: After Wilbur's months of flight demonstrations in late 1908, Farman, Delagrange, Bleriot, and the Zen brothers spent a great deal of time over in LeMans working with Wilbur, with Henri Farman being the first to purchase a users license from Wilbur so he could apply the Wright's patented control system to his biplane designs. Delagrange ordered the first Flyer the Wrights sold in Europe. Wilbur and then a month later Orville over in America, had so excited the world...
@jotathnoble Part19:..the US Gov, in Dec1907 for a flying machine, so Orville headed back to America, where his brother Wilbur had gone earlier that year. The following June (1908), Wilbur returned to France, picked up the Flyer III at LeHavre and took it down to LeMans (he didn't want to go anywhere near Paris because he deplored attention) and spent the next month assembling it. On Saturday 8Aug1908, Wilbur flew his first European demo flight and the world was astounded by what they had done.
@jotathnoble Part18:..traveled over to Paris (1907) where he and his European sales manager, Hart O. Berg, had been meeting with officials in France, Belgium, Italy, England, and Germany on those governments purchasing their Flyer. In July(1907), Orville arrived, and he brought with him the Wright's first production Flyer III, but it remained unpacked in its crate at a dockside warehouse in Le Havre, France, where it would remain until May of 1908. The Wrights received the bid request from...
@jotathenoble Part17:...exciting, so he bought a Voisin brothers biplane and by Sept, he recorded that year's longest flight of 771m. In October, Farman even had his first attempt at the "Grand Prix d'Aviation" award (an award for the first to complete a 360° circle) and though Farman failed, Orville Wright was there to watch and he had some interesting comments. Archdeacon was also there and he really poked a stick at Orville, but Orville just ignored him. The previous May, Wilbur had....
@jotathenoble Part16: Even after Dumont was able to get off the ground a couple of times in late 1906, the Paris based newspapers started following other Aero Club members that were having success with their machines. Specifically it was Delagrange, Pelterie, Viula, Bleriot, Voisin that were filling the daily headlines for their exploits, but in May1907, Delagrange made news for taking up the first passenger (for 150m), a Paris bicycle builder, Henri Farman. Farman thought it was quite...
@jotathenoble Part15:..practical type inventions, such as telegraph improvements, new telephones, better lighting systems, etc.. We do know, that for whatever reasons, Dumont had some problem with his airship (all we've been able to find was apparently his dirigible was damaged during shipping from France) and he was unable to actually demonstrate it as he had planned. After that, there is very little about Dumont, with only an occasional mention in the Paris newspapers until 1906.
@jotathenoble Part14:..to his dirigibles, even on one occasion attending the technology convention over in St Louis, Missouri (America), where he met Thomas Edison, where the promoters arranged for Dumont to put on a demonstration of his airship. The St Louis Convention was an overall technology event, airships were in fact a very minor part of it and details of what, if anything, which occurred concerning aviation is very sketchy at best. The show was more about electrical, new....
@jotathenoble Part13: ...would only be acheived through an agressive means after the basic HTA design would be based on the concept of "Inherent Instability". Both Voisin and Pelterie stated this concept was totaly backwards in theory, but Ferber thought it was worth checking out. We've not been able to locate anything, one way or another, concerning Santos Dumont's opinion on this subject, other than his statement he thought Chanute was exaggerating. From that point on, Dumont went back...
@jotathenoble Part12:..other Club members felt Chanute had exaggerated the success of the Wright's gliders). Chanute had also brought with him a science paper, written by Wilbur Wright (it was the text of Wilbur's presentation to the Western Society of Engineers from the previous September) and the Aero Club in-house magazine, L'Aerophile, reprinted Wilbur's paper in total, but most Club members dismissed it, claiming it was totally in error for suggesting that successful flight and control...
@jotathenoble Part11:..builders in America that had been experimenting with a glider down at a beach called Kitty Hawk. According to Chanute the elder of these brothers, Wilbur Wright, was very astute in the area of understanding aero-dynamics, but most of the Aero Club membership didn't think much of it, except for Ferber. Meanwhile, Santos Dumont (who had stated that HTA flight was a lost cause and regardless that Chanute was excited about those American boys, Dumont, along with several..
@jotathenoble Part10:...in the Paris newspapers. There was one exception to this (at the Aero Club) and that was Captain Ferber, who had been experimenting with a Lilienthal style glider since the summer of 1900. Then in late 1901, Octave Chanute, a French born retired civil engineer from America, who had been writing to Captain Ferber since 1900, arrrived in Paris to visit friends, including Ferber. Chanute was asked to speak to the Aero Club membership about another pair of bicycle...
@jotathenoble Part9:..how the day, sometime soon, great airships would not only travel between the European cities, but would cross the oceans too. Dumont was right, but it would be the Germans that would do that, not the French. Up until late 1901, no one in France, or at least no one at the Aero Club, believed that heavier-than-air flight was possible and anyone attempting to successfully build a flying machine like that (an HTA) was only on a fool's errand and Santos Dumont had so stated...
@jotathenoble Part8: Seeing Santos flying his dirigible around Paris had to be really something to the Parisians and many times he (Santos) would fly his airship at balcony level, with Parisian women throwing their under-garments to him as he slowly passed by! Often times, Santos would land in an open field, very near one of his favorite restaurants, where his ground crew would take of his airship, while he joined friends and he would talk of the future of aviation, telling his friends about..
@jotathenoble Part7:..no internet, and just a handful of automobiles, but only the very rich had one of those (in 1901, the average cost of an automobile was $5,000 to $25,000 USD, as they were ONLY available from a custom coach maker. Mass production of the automobile was still a decade away into the future). Besides horse and buggy, it was the bicycle that was the rage of the day and one of the most popular bicycles in Paris was made by the Farman brothers, Henri and Maurice (sound familar?)
@jotathenoble Part6:..and are something that I want to share, in the event you're unaware of them. I imagine Santos Dumont was some kind of character; young, good-looking, and very rich. I also suspect he was a bit arrogant as well and that is not meant to be a fault of his, it was just the nature of the times and what he had accomplished. Kind of like a modern day rock-star or something of that nature, if you understand me. Remember, at that time there were no movie theatres, no television,..
@jotathenoble Part5:...was a big deal. The underlying jealousy within the Aero Club became very noticable when the Aero Club members, that were a part of the rules committee for the Deutsch de a Meurthe prize, changed the rules while Dumont was still in flight. The French public (Parisians) nearly rioted over this, so the Aero Club elitists had no choice but to give Dumont his justice (deservingly so in my opinion). The stories surrounding Dumont and his dirigibles are quite interesting..
@jotathenoble Part4: By early 1901, Santos Dumont had already became a big hit in and around Paris among the commoners (so to speak), but after Dumont won the "Deutsch de la Meurthe" prize for the first to fly from the park at St. Cloud, around the Eiffel Tower, and back to St Cloud in under 30min, with his No.6 dirigible, Santos Dumont became world famous. Santos was now being called "The Great Santos Dumont" by the Paris newspapers and beyond! Considering the early date, Dumont's flight...
@jotathenoble Part3: I can tell you that after having read through many of the internal documents of the Aero Club de France archives from that period, much of the bigotry toward Santos Dumont is very easily seen, though I'm pretty sure those in that club of that era didn't see it that way. Ernest Archdeacon though was always a supporter of Dumont's,but we suspect that was more than anything, because of Dumont's huge success with his dirigibles as a representative of the Aero Club.
@jotathenoble Part2: ...a "French" gentlemens club! I know today, that might not mean that much, but at the turn of century Europe, class separation was what society was very prevelant at that time. By 1898 to 1899, after Santos was having much success with his early dirigibles, there was a lot of jealousy within the "club" between the French born members and Santos Dumont, of whom many considered Santos an out-sider, not worthy of the fame he was gaining among the French public.
@jotathenoble Part31: When Dumont had his one power hop on 13Nov1906, there were an estimated 180 to 200 witnesses, the most ever seen at a Dumont attempt at HTA flight. At Wilbur Wright's first demo flight (LeMans 8Aug1908) there were about 100-120 witnesses. One week later, there were over 30,000 witnesses at LeMans, including several people who had ridden bicycles from Paris to watch (185 km away). When Orville flew his demos at Berlin, 1,500,000 people were there (I have photos of this)!
@jotathenoble There is a more indepth part of the story of early aviation, specifically as it relates to Santos Dumont that I have never seen covered in modern writings. After Archdeacon (who was a very well-known Paris lawyer) had done some work for Santos' father, but after meeting the young Santos, Archdeacon suggest to the young Santos he should become a member of the Aero Club de France. The Aero Club de France was, as I stated earlier, a "Gentlemens Club", but it was more importantly...
@jotathenoble Part 30: The previous posts tell the complete story of Santos Dumont and his involvement with HTAs and this information is all available from the memoirs of Louis Bleriot, the Aero Club de France archives, the Federation Aeronautique Internationale records, the archives of the Paris newspapers Le Matin, Le Journal, and the New York Herald Paris edition, the ACdeF club magazine L'Aerophile, the French National Archives, the private journals of G.Voisin, L.Delagrange, & R.E.Pelterie.
@jotathenoble Part29:...8 km, but that was the longest flight he would ever make, with a powered HTA, until he announced his retirement from all aviation activities in 1910. Bleriot gave away all rights to his TypeIII mono-wing (Demoiselle) to Dumont and the Clement-Bayard company got excited about it and even pre-built 50 airframes, but after a year had only sold 15 of them, so they dismantled the remaining 35 airframes and used the parts to build Farman II & III biplanes.
@jotathenoble Part28:...machine and most importantly, Dumont had no clue how to fly a machine designed in the concept of "Inherent Instability". (by Jan of 1909, Dumont's TOTAL time in an HTA was 59 seconds at a time there were other aviators now recording single flights in hours). On 13Feb1909, Dumont made it into the air, for the first time, with his little M19 mono-wing (with Bleriot's help) and soon after called his machine the "Demoiselle". In March 1909, Dumont did have one flight of...
@jotathenoble Part27:...the Wrights (Orville and sister Katherine had now joined Wilbur in France), who were opening up a flight training school there. Before Bleriot came down to Pau, he designed lift producing airfoils and installed them on Dumont's little mono-wing (Bleriot's 1907 TypeIII) and with the information Wilbur Wright supplied him, Bleriot added a way for Dumont to twist his wing-tips (wing-warping) for lateral control. It had been over 14 months since Dumont had been in an HTA...
@jotathenoble Part26:..was only able to get if off the ground for a few meters on 17Nov1907, so Dumont put his machine away and never attempted to fly again, until over a year later and after Wilbur Wright had been flying out of LeMans for several months. With Wilbur Wright massive success with the Wright's first production machine (Flyer III "A"), Dumont thought he would give it one last go with Bleriot's help. Bleriot gave Dumont his hanger at Issy, as Bleriot was moving down to Pau with...
@jotathenoble Part25:...but he never trusted Dumont after that. Archdeacon and Ferber both knew that if the newspapers got wind of the problems over Dumont, all the work they had done the previous year would be for not, so they kept it quiet, but from then on Dumont was on his own. Louis Bleriot was the only ACdeF member that kept up a friendly relationship with Dumont after that and even gave Dumont his (Bleriot's) TypeIII mono-wing that Bleriot flew for nearly 200m in July (1907), but Dumont..
@jotathenoble Part24:...about "who" had actually designed an built his prize winning 14bis, claiming he and he alone had designed it. 2 days later, during an interview with the same reporter (at Le Matin), Voisin & Pelterie both retorted that Dumont was exaggerating, Dumont had assisted, but it was they that had provided the most design input. Privately, Voisin and Pelterie were livied and wanted Leon Delagrange to throw Dumont out of the ACdeF for lying! Archdeacon stood up for Dumont,...
@jotathenoble Part23:..it was the world's first flight of an HTA and other such mis-representations (something Archdeacon would come to reget in a few months) and considering just how famous Dumont already was with his dirigibles (and the fact that no one in Europe had ever seen an airplane before), it was no problem for everyone to accept it as a world's first. Unfortunately, for Dumont, in Jan (1907) during an interview with a reporter for the Le Matin (Paris) newspaper, Dumont lied....
@jotathenoble Part22: ...what Archdeacon needed and Dumont was awarded the Archdeacon/ACdeF award for the first to exceed 100m in a straightline and the newly formed FAI was present to record the flight as the first they had personally observed. Dumont's power hop itself wasn't a "record", as the French aviator Clement Ader (the "father" of French aviation) had made an official flight of 300m on 14Oct1897, so Dumont was 80m short of that, but no matter Archdeacon had the newspapers claim....
@jotathenoble Part21:...but the first problem was Dumont only had two control wheels, so V-P locked out the 14bis' yaw rudder and re-routed the cable system to Pelterie's ailerons. Dumont would have no ability to turn, but he could control pitch and Pelterie's ailerons would prevent roll by Dumont's ability to maintain level. Finally on 13Nov1906, after 4 trys that day, Dumont got his machine up to sufficient speed the CoP force was high enough for one power hop of 220m. This was just...
@jotathenoble Part20: After 3 months of failed attempts, Levasseur supplied Voisin with a 50hp Antoinette engine, which was the same size and weight of the 24hp model, then Voisin and Pelterie were convinced it would work. On 24Oct1906, after 5 trys, Dumont managed one hop where the wheels carried for a few meters, but the machine started a left roll Dumont had no ability to prevent. Pelterie then installed the "ailerons", he had developed for his (Pelterie's) 1904 Type du Wright glider,....
@jotathenoble Part 19:...automatic stablization (self-righting), by having very high dihedral. They first tried with Dumont's No14 dirigible envelop attached, but with the balloon envelop attached, several men pulling on ropes, the 14bis' 24hp Antoinette engine just couldn't push it fast enough to get airborne. Voisin convinced Dumont to remove the balloon and they tried again, but the engine (and the 14bis' lack of a propeller) simply couldn't go fast enough to generate any lift.
@jotathenoble Part18:...of the Wright's 1902 glider and the complete text of their (the Wright's) US Patent #821,393 issued the month before. Additionally, L. Hargrave's (NZ) box kites were standard fare among the French aviators, so Voisin/Pelterie built a rather large, yet very lightweight machine that Dumont called the "14bis". Dumont did provide some input, specifically including one of his baskets from a dirigible, so he could stand while operating the machine. To force the machine into...
@jotathenoble Part17: ...on numerous occasions. Additionally, Dumont understood nothing about designing an HTA machine, as Dumont had been flying his dirigibles over the previous 8 years, while other members had been working on HTAs. Gabriel Voisin worked for Archdeacon and R.E. Pelterie had worked with Voisin on several occasions so Archdeacon got them together to design and build a machine for Dumont. In June (1906), the ACdeF club magazine, L'Aerophile, published a detailed accounting...
@jotathenoble Part16: ...in a very public fashion, they could have that feat splashed throughout the world's newspapers, with which they could use to counter any future claims made by the Wrights after. First off, they needed someone already well known to fly a machine, preferably someone attached to the ACdeF, there the answer was clearly Dumont, who was already world famous for his dirigibles, but there was a problem, Dumont didn't believe in HTA flight and he publicly stated so.....
@jotathenoble Part15: Archdeacon and Ferber were enormously overt French Nationalists and the very thought that the airplane was apparently invented over in the backwards country of America was extraordinarily upsetting to them both, especially Ferber. They just didn't understand why the Wrights never made any public claims of what they had accomplished(?). From this, Archdeacon surmised they had one way to save the "honor" of France left, if they could just get someone into the air...
@jotathenoble Part14: After only 2 days, Weaver cabled Lahm and told him everything was true and he (Weaver) talked to dozens and dozens of people who had seen the Wrights flying their machine for some time, in and around a train stop called Simms Station (near Huffman-Praire). One farmer told Weaver that he had even complained to the brothers that their noisy contraption was upsetting his chickens, because they were flying high over his farm so often.
@jotathenoble Part13: Ferber argued that it must be true, Chanute was very specific in describing what they had done, but Archdeacon wasn't so sure..why hadn't there been any newspaper coverage of such an event? Archdeacon decided they had to confirm it, and there was an American businessman, living in Paris, that was also a ACdeF member, L.S.Lahm. Lahm had a brother-in-law (W.S.Weaver) who lived just outside Dayton, so Lahm cabled Weaver to go to Dayton and check it out.
@jotathenoble Part12: It seems that on the previous 4th and 5th of October, Orville and Wilbur had successfully flown, respectfully, 33.8 km and 38.6 km while circling high over a large field called Huffman-Prarie, outside of Dayton, Ohio. Both Ferber & Archdeacon were stunned and terribly disappointed, it appears the airplane would not be invented in France as they had hoped, but then something happened! Nothing is what happened, no great newspaper headlines, by anyone or by any newspaper!
@jotathenoble Part11: ...among the French ACdeF membership, they officially coined the term "Type du Wright" for those machines that were obvious copies of the Wright's gliders. As the Wrights were progressing, Chanute kept the French up to date by cable, first by telling his ACdeF friends about the Wright's success on 17Dec1903, for example, and then on 8Oct1905, Ferber received a most disturbing cable from Chanute!
@jotathenoble Part10: Chanute arranged for Ferber to communicate directly with Wilbur Wright, while Chanute occasionaly passed information on to the ACdeF membership he was friendly with. Several with the ACdeF began experimenting with what they had been told were faithful copies of the Wright's machines (specifically Archdeacon, Ferber, Voisin, and Pelterie), but the fact was their machines were no where near like the Wright's machines, and copying of the Wright's biplane were so prevalent ...
@jotathenoble Part 9: ...acheived with an HTA! Of the ACdeF membership in attendence, only Capt Ferber took it seriously, most just reacted in disbelief, with Santos Dumont even making the statement that Chanute was not being truthful, despite his French background, and was only exaggerating the Wright's success. A few months later, Chanute was back in Paris and this time he couldn't contain himself, the Wright's newest machine soared on the air "..like an Eagle"!
@jotathenoble Part 8: ..to Georges Beancon, editor of the ACdeF in-house magazine, "L'Aerophile", which they reprinted in total. In Wilbur's science paper, he stated that Otto Lilienthal's lift tables (the world's accepted standard at the time) was all wrong and of no use for airfoil design (Wilbur had even referred to Lilienthal's tables as a "..red herring"). Even more unbelievable was that this young man claimed that "Inherent Instability" was the only way success would ever be..
@jotathenoble Part 7: Chanute went on, during his presentation to the ACdeF membership, that these boy's glider was easily the most successful in world history and the older boy's understanding of airfoil design and HTA control was even beyond his (Chanute's) ability to understand. (the biplane Chanute claimed he had designed had actually been designed by Augusta Herring, one of Chanute's protégés from 1896). Chanute also gave a copy of young Wilbur's speech to the Western Society of Engineers..
@jotathenoble Part 6: A month after Dumont made his Eiffel Tower dirigible flight, a French born civil engineer (retired) from America, showed up and gave a presentation to the Aero Cub membership. Octave Chanute was quite famous and respected in Paris and his presentation was about these two American brothers who had been extrordinarily successful with a glider (Octave claimed he had designed it) and the older brother even had presented his findings to the WSofE, of which Chanute was President.
@jotathenoble Part 5: ...the story goes! Dumont also kept the 125K francs presented to him from the Brazilian government. This was just an extraordinary accomplishment, Dumont wasn't the first to fly a powered/controlled dirigible, but there was no question he was the best, in the world, at it. Santos Dumont was so admired (deservingly so), he couldn't go anywhere in Paris unrecognized, and he even inspired Jules Verne to write "Master of the World" (one of my personal favorite movies too).
@jotathenoble Part 4: ...going to cross over the field just within the 30 min time limit, so the rules commitee stated the 30 min limit was for his landing, not his making it to the field. The commitee said Dumont wasn't due the prize (125K francs), because it took him too long, but the Paris public went bananas, so the rules commitee relented and gave him the prize (the Brazilian government also matched it). Dumont kept 50K francs for himself and gave 75K francs to the Paris "poor" or so...
@jotathenoble Part 3: To the Parisians of that time, rather you used a balloon, a dirigible, a glider, or whatever, "flying" was "flying". There was an element within the Club though that didn't look at Dumont in a fair an equal way, call it bigotry or call it what you will, that bigotry became evident when Dumont flew his #6 airship from StCloud to the ET and back in 1901. As Dumont crossed the field (StCloud), the ACdeF rules commitee changed the rules, when it became obvious Dumont was....
@jotathenoble Part 2: The unique thing about Archeacon and the others, and what was so extraordinary, was their's wasn't "just" a gentlemen's club, it was an "Aero Club", the first ever conceived anywhere. Where better though than the home of the Mongolfier brothers than Paris, right? All the founders of ACdeF were "balloonist" and when this extremely wealthy, flamboyant, and good looking young man joined, who had an unusual bent toward dirigibles, he very quickly became the darling of the club.
@jotathenoble There's something you need to understand, I have no agenda here, other than the truth. If Santos Dumont had really contributed anything to early aviation, I would be the first to point that out, but the reality is that Santos Dumont had nothing whatsoever to contribute, at least anything of any consequence, except maybe the wrist-watch. I don't speak from opinion either, everything I've posted can be confirmed by easily available documents, letters, archive data, newspapers, etc..
@BearFlight Yes, I was refering to this flight that you mentionated, and I did some research here, and what I find out so far is that, basicly, Wright Brothers and Dumont will always be in a duel, safe sources contradict each other, we will never get the facts right. I looked for some info about WB, some said x, other y, same for Dumont.
@BearFlight We basicly can stay here in a struggle for ever, with no conclusion after all, as if a simple discussion wasn't chaotic enough, let's just stop this pointless thing as mature people, as I said, no source is safe in this case, it will result in no were.
@jotathenoble Part 1: Actually, you and I are discussing two sides of a different argument. As a historian, when studying something that occurred over 100 years ago, you have to try and put your mind into the era. The early pioneers, especially those with the Aero Club de France, were all aviators and very nearly all very wealthy individuals. The Aero Club de France initially was founded, more than anything, as an exclusive "gentlemen's club". Something quite common at that time in Paris.
@jotathenoble The basic confusion that many of you have concerning the early aviators, is that you just don't understand the difference between just getting airborne with a dynamic HTA and getting airborne with a dynamic HTA and then actually "flying"? By that I mean, taking-off, climbing, banking, turning, circling, descending, and landing at eactly the spot the operator intended. The Wright brothers were the first whom developed the original technology allowing an aviator to do just that.
@jotathenoble After Dumont failed with his M18 (17Nov1907), he gave up an went back to his No.16 airship dirigible, stating that HTAs would never amount to anything, claiming that the future was in LTAs, not HTAs. After Wilbur Wright "stunned" the French and the world on 8Aug1908, Dumont (with Louis Bleriot's help) finally was succesful with his M19, after Bleriot installed airfoils and wing-warping provided by Wilbur Wright, in Jan1909. Dumont's M19 was just too impractical to be of any use.
@jotathenoble The reason I didn't include Dumont in that list of French aviators is because the machines he used in 1906/1907 were not his, except for his M15 and M17 biplane tractors and neither worked. Dumont was very good with LTAs, but when it came to HTAs, he was as lost as the dozens of other individuals that tried in France at that time. Dumont's M18 mono-wing (later called Demoiselle) was actually the Bleriot TypeIII he (Bleriot) gave to Dumont, but Dumont failed with it too. until 1909.
@jotathenoble Those early French aviators I already mentioned, had all failed to get gliders to work (especially Voisin and Ferber) so they jumped to engines, which only forced their machines into the air by thrust rather than aerodynamics. That is why they struggled so much, that was until Wilbur demonstrated the world's first "true" airplane to them on 8Aug1908 at LeMans. Every "official" group (the FAI specifically) flatly states that the Wright brothers were the first with the practical HTA.
@jotathenoble If you "really" think that gliders and powered HTAs are different, then I suggest you do a web search for the largest glider ever, the "Gimli Glider"! You might find it interesting and instructive. The reason the French aviators of 1906-1908 all failed (Voisin, Pelterie, Bleriot, Viula, de Pischolf, Farman, Ferber, and Delagrange), was they failed to gain success first with gliders before going to dynamic flight. The Wrights perfected their science 1st with gliders then dynamic.
@jotathenoble The "ONLY" machines Dumont attempted to fly, that were of his own design, were his Model 15 biplane tracter in Feb1907 (it was so poorly designed and constructed, it fell apart thefirst time Dumont attempted to taxi) and his Model17 biplane tracter on 14Nov1907, but he only managed a single power hop of 203m which was sadly 100m to 500m short of 7 other French aviators from that year. Between Nov1907 and Jan1909, the only thing Dumont flew was his No16 airship LTA dirigible.
@BearFlight Then if they are the same thing, you bascily can change airplane enginnes for a catapult in the airport... I do not consider an glider the same thing as an airplane...
@jotathenoble Well, if you don't think gliders and dynamic HTAs are the same thing, then I'm sorry you understand so little about aircraft. Your comment about "catapults" also tells me something else. I assume you're referring to the Wrights use of a catapult with their machines starting on 4Sept04. The Wrights were not aviators, they were engineers and their use of a catapult was strictly as a safety device nothing more. Their machines took-off with or without it many times.
@jotathenoble During 1907 and early 1908, do you know how many different individuals attempted to fly in Europe (specifically France)??? We have a list (including photographs of their machines) of 47 different people! Do you know how many were successful, not at just getting off the ground, but actually flying? NONE, not until Wilbur Wright at LeMans on 8Aug1908. On 17Nov1907, after Dumont failed with Bleriot's TypeIII MWing (which he later called the Demosielle), Dumont gave up until 1909.
@jotathenoble As far as Dumont having designed the 14bis, I didn't say that he didn't, Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie said they did it for Dumont, in a Jan1907 issue of the Le Matin newspaper during an interview. Dumont lied! In Jan1906, Dumont had publicly stated that HTA flight was impossible, but after ACdeF member L.S. Lahm confirmed the Wright's success (38.6 km flight in 1905), Archdeacon convinced Dumont to try, with Voisin & Pelterie's help (ACdeF 1906 archive is my source).
@jotathenoble As for Dumont's record(?), Dumont never set a record (FAI) in a dynamic HTA, but his attempts were "recorded" by the FAI. The FAI "official" flight record list (listed in 2Jan09 issue of the British magazine "Flight") does show Dumont had a 50m hop on 24Oct06 and 4 hops on 13Nov06 (longest of 220m), but they are all short of the "official" first flight (according to the FAI) of Clement Ader on 14Oct1897 for 300m. Dumont did receive a minor award from the ACdeF for his 13Nov06 hop.
@jotathenoble In 1905 the Wrights "test" flew their Flyer III mule 55 times, including their 4Oct and 5Oct fuel endurance flights which were witnessed by 1,100 witnesses, including invited newspaper reporters. On the 4th, Orville flew 33.8 km before running out of fuel and on the 5th, Wilbur went 38.6 km before he run out of fuel, and in both cases they glided safely down to a soft landing. Their journals contain detailed maps of their flights and all pertinent data (wind sp & dir, route, etc).
@BearFlight So... you're basicly saing that Dumont didn't desingned nor used his model? Which was recorded? And that the use of gravity to propel a plane is the same thing that using a engine? If Wrights moddel actualy could fly like a normal plane, I wouldn't argue if he could actualy fly like a true airplane, but in that case is the same thing that a glider, and yes, they are diferet. Dumont used his airplane, that is out of discussion, and WB was merely an glider, no discussion on that too.
@jotathenoble I know you're having difficulty in understanding this, but gliders or dynamic aircraft are the same thing. There are 3 basic things to successful flight, "Thrust", "Lift", and "Control". With soaring flight, "Thrust" is provided by gravity, with dynamic flight, its an engine with a propeller (until the engine quits and the dynamic machine now becomes a soaring machine). Birds produce thrust by flapping their wings, but its their wing shape that allows them to soar on the winds.
@jotathenoble You should know that the Wrights, as experimenters, developed their Flyer II (1904) for "testing only" and during 1904, test flew it 105 times, every single flight was photographed and every single flight data results were entered into their engineering journals. On test flight #83,Wilbur competed 4 complete circles at 15m AGL and covered 4.43km, duly witnessed by Amos Root, editor of "Gleanings in Bee Culture". The test Flyer III (1905) was developed from their 1904 test data.
@jotathenoble Other quotes after Wilbur's 1st demo flight: “..Wilbur Wright has completely dissipated all doubts. Not one of the former detractors of the Wrights dare question, today, the previous experiments of the men who are truly the first to fly…..” (Georges Beancon, editor of ACdeF official magazine "L'Aerophile")! “...the Wrights have beaten us all with their machine and I want one!” (Leon Delagrange).
@jotathenoble You want an education on the truth, just read through the extensive list of quotes (and by whom) in the Paris newspapers, over the days immediately following Wilbur's first flight demonstration on 8Aug1908 out at LeMans. I'll give you one “..for months I have witnessed what I had thought were flights of an airplane, but today I find I just witnessed my first airplane flight, ever!” (FAI Official at LeMans that day).
@jotathenoble Because the Wrights did empirical measuring of their 1900 & 1901 gliders down at Kitty Hawk, they discovered the errors for lift calculation of both Sir George Cayley (1847) and Otto Lilienthal in 1890 (who also used Smeathon's Coefficient of Pressure value of k=0.0054,which was also in error). Other European engineers (Whenham and Phillips) had correctly assumed specific parts of the theoritical science (aspect ratio and pressure differential), but they never published their data.
@jotathenoble The Wright's greatest contribution to aviation, other than the invention of Aeronautical Engineering & the world's first airplane, was Wilbur's conceptional idea of "Inherent Instability" and the 3-axis control system to make it all work. The world's first airplane was actually the Wright's 1902 glider, but their first "test" only dynamic machine, the Flyer I, was only intended to fly that one day and it was designed to the very minimum specs for flight, intentionally. It worked!
@jotathenoble Airfoil design is a very complex engineering problem and though Wilbur Wright didn't invent the airfoil, he did discover the interrelationship of CoL/CoD and the influence of cord-line camber and aspect ratio have on either. Their "truly" most revoluntionary invention were the "balance scales" they designed to accurately measure an airfoil's performance and then the mathematics to accurately convert that data to provide an airfoil with predictable lift performance.
@jotathenoble Go the website Flightglobal dotcom, click on the "archives" tab, then do a "search" for "Flight". There you can read through every issue of the weekly British magazine called Flight, beginning with the 2Jan1909 edition. In that first edition, go to page 10 and there you will see the "OFFICIAL" Federation Aeronautique International European flight attempts listing up through 15Dec1909. You'll note that Dumont was NOT the official first flight, Clement Ader was.
@kadudidario Starting back in 1927, the International Society of Engineers began awarding the "The Wright Brothers Medal" to an engineer or engineers for outstanding acheivements in either aviation and/or aerospace. This award has been given to AE or ASEs from over 30 different countries, for developments like"Low Speed Control Surface Flutter Reduction" or "Transient Characteristics in Turbine Blade Stall". What better than to receive an award in the name of the first Aeronautical Engineers.
@BearFlight Ahhh... it's sad how you americans think that stuff are the way you want, Wright Brothers have no reconing outside US, Dumont Model was extremly sucefull back there, 14 bis plane was sucefull, if you don't think so I fear your sources are incorrect, and you cannot say that Dumont had any credit on early aviation, serveral baloons models were made and used by him, safer as technology would let it be...
@jotathenoble First of all, I'm not American, I'm a retired British AE. Unfortunately, the documents concerning early aviation are not imaginary, they do exist. In 1902, the Wrights science paper on their aerodynamic research was published worldwide and it revolutionized airfoil performance and design. Wilbur Wright's conceptional idea on "Inherent Instability" was unique and original and it also, once shown to the world, allowed the world to design successful aircraft.
@jotathenoble Concerning the 14bis, it NEVER flew and Dumont DID NOT design it, G.Voisin and R.Esnault-Pelterie did, that is NOT arguable.Go check the archives of the Le Matin from Jan1907 and there you will see an interview with Dumont where he LIED to the reporter, which nearly got him ejected from the Aero Club de France. By reading through the 1907 newspapers (Paris) Le Matin, Le Journal, New York Herald, L'Aerophile, they chronicle Dumont's continous string of failures throughout 1907.
@BearFlight WB plane model wasn't good enough to be turned into a plane, as it was a glider, with external aid, it could fly, but it wasn't a plane, you can credit them for beeingh pioners in the winged fly, but that's all, outside US you won't see many people talking about them, the only reason for you americans to belive that WB was a plane, is because they were americans, but people outside France or Brazil also belive on Dumont model...
@BearFlight Your arogance made the American aviation have a pushback, 10 years wasted thinking that everthing that is american is supperior, France is gratefull on the other hand, as French planes were brought by US, i'm not taking away WB credit, as I said, they were pionners on winged flight, but giving them the credits for making an airplane (instead of a glider) is completly wrong. American proofs that WB made a PLANE are all falses.
@BearFlight I'm not putting my patriotic faith against you, there are alot of proofs that you can easily check, this ones are not covered by patriotic faith like WB on US, please, just check them.
@jotathenoble Something else, soaring and dynamic flight are the same thing my friend, one is powered by an engine and the other by gravity, but the science and technology that make either successful is identical. Aviation historians & Aeronautical/Aerospace engineers here in Europe are sick and tired of those that continue to ignore the obvious concerning those two American boys and what they gave to the world. Get over it. They were scientists NOT aviators, they hated to fly by the way.
@kadudidario All of you that fail to celebrate Dumont's accomplishments with LTAs, but continue to spread the false lies about his HTA flights (or lack of), only bring disgrace and dishonor to Dumont's memory. Even more of a disgrace is how you dishonor the memory of those that actually did the "real" work, many of whom lost their lives in the attempt to progress the technology of the HTA (Lilienthal, Pilcher, Ferber, Delagrange, Selfridge, Cody, Lefebvre, Rolls, Rodgers, and dozens of more).
@kadudidario You might want to also check out what H.M. Biust (reporter for the Aero Club of the United Kingdom official magazine, "Flight") stated about Dumont's M19 Demoiselle after Dumont displayed it during the Air Machine Convention at the Olympic, in March of 1909. He (Biust) called it an "..impractical child's toy". Dumont entered his Demoiselle in the 1909 Reims Air Meet, but with Dumont's total lack of experience and the Demoiselle's lack of speed & poor handling, he failed to qualify.
@kadudidario EVERYTHING I have posted is a matter of record and are the absolute facts. It was once said by an American President (Reagan) that "....facts are a bothersome thing!" You also might want to check out what the Clement-Bayard Company (France) did, after they tried to sell Dumont's 1909 M19 Demoiselle (Dumont's 1st flyable machine)! They (CB) pre-built 50 M19 airframes, but after a year had only sold 15, so they scraped the remaining 35 & used the parts to build Farman II&III biplanes.
@kadudidario In 1909, G.Voisin and R.Esnault-Pelterie described (in the newspaper Le Journal) how they designed the 14bis for Dumont from the detailed blueprints of the Wright's 1902 glider, as published in the L'Aerophile magazine (official publication of the Aero Club de France) in early 1906. They crossed the Wright's 1902 glider with L. Hargrave's (NZ) famous box kites. "Officially", the 14bis was classified a "Type du Wright" by the Aero Club de France in 1906.
@kadudidario Between 1908 and 1910, the Wright brothers received 35 special awards, including: Gold medals of engineering acheivement from AeroClubdeFrance & AeroClubofthe United Kingdom & the French Academy of Sciences, the French Legion of Honour (twice), US Medal of Honor and the French Academy of Sciences nominated Wilbur Wright for the Nobel Prize in engineering in 1909. Additionally they received 15 engineering docorates from UofMunich, UofParis, SAof London, MIT, Yale, Harvard, plus more.
@kadudidario Are you aware that Dumont DID NOT design his 14bis? G. Voisin and R. Esnault-Pelterie did. In January 1909, Dumont LIED to a Le Matin newspaper reporter, falsely claiming he had designed the 14bis, so Dumont was going to be ejected from the Aero Club de France by ACdeF President Leon Delagrange for breaking club rules (for publicly lying about fellow club members). Archdeacon convinced the club membership to withhold their punishment of Dumont, but he was never trusted after that.
@kadudidario Officially (FAI records), Santos Dumont's TOTAL flight time (dynamicHTA) on 1Jan1909 was 59 seconds (the day before, Wilbur Wright recorded his 100 hour of flight time while making two flights for 2hr 38m and 1hr 55m covering 207 kilometers total in the process). In Sept1903, Orville Wright had one flight of his 1902 glider extend to 79 seconds and he didn't have an engine. In 1911 Orville flew their new glider on 1 flight for 9m 55s, a record that stood for over 10 years.
@kadudidario You had better check your sources my friend. The first person to actually get off the ground in a dynamic HTA (man-carrying) was Felix du Temple (FR) in Oct1874. Officially (FAI records) it was Clement Ader on 14Oct1897 for 300m. Something else, Dumont's first power hop of 50m was on "24Oct1906" NOT the 23rd. Go to Flightglobal dotcom, click on "archives" and look up the 2Jan1909 issue of "Flight" magazine. On page 10 is the "official" FAI record listing current through 15Dec1908.
All the Hispanics on this page are nationalist dickwads. To attempt to discredit the Wright brothers using poorly researched and anecdotal "evidence" is a waste of time to respond to.
Wright brothers HAVE credits on making the first flying machine, NOT A PLANE, Dumont model WAS A PLANE, that could take off by itself, without any external help, it was AFTER WRIGHT BROTHERS MODEL, but it was A PLANE, you guys are beeing the nationalist.
@jotathenoble Dumont's "first" actual flight of an aircraft didn't occur until 13Feb1909, as per FAI official records. FAI records also state 1st flight from level ground unassisted was Clement Ader on 14Oct1897. 1st flight from level ground unassisted with an aircraft capable of sustained & controlled flight was Orville Wright 17Dec1903. First circle was Wilbur Wright 20Sept1904 (4 circles for 4.43 km).
@beeroosterm Proof of that? On WWI US spent thousands of dollars with planes FROM FRANCE, and american aviation took a 10 years pushback, you can check that.
@jotathenoble Once you study the documents, official records, letters, journals, newspaper accounts, registered science papers, official club records, etc., you'll find that of all the early pioneers, particularly those aviators connected to the ACdeF, Santos Dumont was the least successful. Dumont had NO understanding of HTA design/construction and EVERY single one of his machines were designed&built by someone else for him. His 1st success was his M19 and that was a copy of Bleriot's TypeIII.
@jotathenoble Before 13Feb1909, Dumont's longest power hop was 220m on 13Nov1906. Then on 14Nov1907 (M17) for 203m and 17Nov1907 (M18 Bleriot Type III mono-wing) for 145m. During 1907, 7 different members had numerous flights much further with Delagrange, Farman, Bleriot, and Pelterie being the best. The Paris newspapers ('07) were so relentless against Dumont for his failures, he simply gave up until 1909 and after Bleriot and Wilbur Wright rebuilt Bleriot's 1907 Type III for him (Dumont).
Sorry my Brazilian friend, but the Wright Brothers did have an engine. The gliders were from 1900-1902. The first 2 flights ion Dec 17th, 1903. 105 more flights in 1904 and some were unassisted, where they did not use the catapult system. The big breakthrough came in 1905. Between Sept. 26th and Oct. 5th of that year, the Wright Brothers flew 6 long flights. The longest being 24.5 miles (39.4 km) in 38 minutes & 3 seconds. the second longest was 20.75 miles in 33 minutes & 17 seconds.
A briga provocada pelos irmãos Wright a respeito de repelente, mesquinha, repulsiva e nojenta disputa por dinheiro atrasou a aviação americana durante vinte anos. Durante a I Guerra Mundial tiveram que utilizar aviões franceses, como o Nieuport 17, SPAD VII, o SPAD XIII. Os conhecimentos dos norte-americanos eram tão primários que os franceses empurraram uma porcaria de avião chamado Nieuport 28, produzido em grandes quantidades, e que nenhum piloto francês queria.
Em dezembro de 2003 uma replica tentou alçar vôo e não conseguiu, vergonhosamente. TODAS as réplicas do 14 Bis voam, mesmo as mais elementares, construídas em fundo de quintal. Enquanto os americanos estavam com seu biplano, tanto Blériot, Voisin, Duperdussin e outros já estavam com monoplanos. Dumont construiu um formidável avião, o Demoiselle, NUNCA COBROU NADA POR ISSO, nunca foi mercenário, egoísta, mesquinho, pequeno de caráter.
Robert Thelen, ALEMÃO, projetista dos famosos caças Albatross afirmou que uma máquina pesando mais de 350 kg JAMAIS levantaria vôo em TODAS as condições com um motor de apenas ... 12 HP.
Mas isso aí é VERGONHOSO. Santos Dumont e outros pioneiros, como Otto Lilienthal, Blériot, Saulnier fizeram suas experiências às claras. Os Irmãos Wright patentearam em 1903 um planador. Escondidos na desculpa da patente, jamais permitiram que alguém conferisse sua máquina, "queriam vender antes" rs, rs, rs. Os descendentes de Orville quando consultados se autorizavam a exposição do engenho no Smithsonian concordaram com uma condição: QUE FOSSE ATRIBUÍDA AOS IRMÃOS a "invenção" do avião.
Paranoid is serious desease and one of the important symtoms is delusional desorder. The brothers are not the VITIMS. They just didn't have what to take to prove that they really flied. Why you guys cannot accept this fact? Was Alberto Santos Dumont who is considered from the "REST" of the world the Father of Aviation who first flied. Santos took off and landed without help of anything like the brothers did. Catapult, slingshot, spoon....This is ridiculus...
This(14 Bis) is the very first OFFICIAL power flight, Adler, Pearson, Wrights(picture) never showed up for the competition, if they did they could be the first official first power flight doing a better job than the small hops of Dumont's.
So an aircraft launched off an aircraft carrier isn't a plane? is a sea plane not a plane either because it doesn't have wheels? that is ridiculous. The catapult made the takeoff shorter. The Wright flyer touched down and took off again a few times during its first flight in 1903. That's called flying.
@brentsrx7 Flyer I never flew in 1903 my friend, this is more an American fable. Similar to the story of Thomas Edison had invented the incandescent lamp. The real inventor is the Englishman Joseph Swan (patent, 1979). Edison plagiarized, was prosecuted and madean agreement with Swan. This story not is disclose in USA. In 1951 Alpheus Drinkwater, an eyewitness told the New York Times that never flew Flyer I in 1903, just glided.
@agente9009 How about you learn how to read, go read the accounts of the people who witnessed the flight and did interviews for the local paper. How about you go look at the photographs. How about you read about their flights in 1904, 1905, and 1906 some lasting over 20 minutes. how about you not lecture me about the dispute between Edison and Swan. Edison did not invent the incandescent lamp, he invented the light bulb. He stole nothing and was not aware it was patented before his.
@agente9009 The difference between Swan's design and Edison's was that Edison's actually worked. People had been heating a piece of wire for years before swan and edition. Edison invented the light bulb. Like the Wright brothers invented controlled flight. BTW there are many photo's and hundreds of historical documents of their flights from 1903 to 1906 long before the 14 bis ever attempted to bounce across that field in France.
@brentsrx7 American of shit. Ignorant motherfucker. You do know not read son of prostitute? Swan's patent is 1879 and Edison in 1881. You do not want to talk about the Edison and Swan dispute because it reveals the truth about the story liar USA. The photos are evidence of Wright? Fuck off jerk. . Drinkwater unmasked the lie of the Wright Brothers never flew in 1903. Read the New York Times, 1951 son of bitch.
@brentsrx7 Liar. Trying to justify the lies of U.S. If this were true the court would not convicted Edison, and he was forced to make a deal. See also the lie of Wright: They said they did not use catapults in 1903, only in 1904, but when you enlarge the photo alleged flight of 1903, is possible see the hook of catapult at the end of the rail. Liars son of bitch.
@brentsrx7 The story U.S is full of lies: Thomas Edison invented the light bulb (actually is a thief that stole Tesla, Swan and others), Wright flew in 1903 (the Flyer was a glider of 300kl with an ridiculous engine of 12hp), but the hoax was unmasked by Drinkwater, he said the New York Times in 1951, the Flyer I just glided, never flew. The weapons in Iraq, the most blatant lie that the Americans told us last decade. Fuck we country of liars.
@brentsrx7 Not despertice your time trying to justify the lies of their country of shit. The whole world is tired of American lies and fables. Europe, Asia, Africa and South and Central America know that there are two stories. The real story and the story American manufactured with fables. See this lie: The Flyer I, took off without catapult in 1903, but the photo shows the hook at the catapult in end of the rail. Do me a favor, go fuck of bastard american.
@brentsrx7 And before you pretend to be naive, and claims does not know what I mean, you self can enlarge the photo of the alleged flight of 1903. Go to Google, copy and enlarge the photo. At the end of the rail you can see the hook of the catapult. This picture proves that the Wrights are liars, they said they just used catapult in 1904. The photo belies their assertion.
@agente9009 They never claimed that? They used a catapult in 1903, that is no secret. But that in no way discredits their flight, unless f18's shot off aircraft carriers are not planes either because of their catapult. The wright flyer landed on its skids and took off again multiple times on that first flight for stints of up to 13 seconds of controlled powered flight.
@brentsrx7 Sorry, but you are misinformed. The diary of Wright, written by them contains information on 7 September 1904: "... catapult first used this date to help takeoff." But this affirmation of Wright is FALSE, the photo of the alleged flight of 1903, you can see the hook of catapult at the end of the rail. Therefore, to say they used catapult the first time was in 07/09/1904, is an blatant lie.
@agente9009 Can you read properly? They used a catapult in 1903, you need to check your sources on his personal diary. Nobody is claiming that they didn't use a catapult in 1903. This is common knowledge, eye witnesses attested to their being a catapult that first flight, so wtf are you talking about?
@brentsrx7 Do not try to escape the truth. In the diary have statement that the Wrights used the catapult for the first time on 7 September 1904. This information in diary them is a BLATANT LIE. The photograph presented by themselves, the supposed flight of 1903, shows the hook of catapult at the end of the trail. Liars son of a bitch.
@agente9009 I actually wasted my time to research your claims.... As you have well proven, you have a VERY HARD TIME with English reading comprehension. I looked into the diaries, and what you probably read was in reference to their improved catapult system that they were using for the first time in 1904. Please stop wasting my time and pick up Rosetta Stone or something.
@brentsrx7 American of shit, trying to distort the facts. In the daily reports that Wright used the catapult for the first time on September 7, 1904. Any child 2 years of U.S. knows that. You do not know how to interpret text ignorant american? You have reason, no despertice your time here, despertice their time going back to school, moron illiterate.
@brentsrx7 The proof that the U.S. believes the lie of Wright (who did not used catapult in 1903) is that in centenary in 2003 did not catapult used in an attempt to repeat what they aleged: Did not used catapult in 1903, catapult first used in September 1904. Fuck you stupid son of a bitch, you do not even know the story of their country.
@agente9009 If you comment one more time on my posts I am reporting you to Youtube. NOBODY IS CLAIMING THAT THEY DID NOT USE A CATIPULT IN 1903 YOU GOD DAMN IDIOT. Just because on the sentential they decided not to use a catapult has nothing to do with your claims about 1903.
@brentsrx7 I'm not afraid of their threats. These threats indicate that you have no arguments and flees the truth. The diary claimed that Wright did not use catapult in 1903, only in 1904. The U.S. believes in lie of Wright, who in the 2003 centenary trying repeat flight without catapult, as have aleged the Wrights. But the photo supposed flight 1903 belies the Wrights. You reporting me to Youtube? Feel free.
@brentsrx7 No one claims that did not use catapults in 1903? The diary of Wright claims that did not use. The United States believes it blindly in claims Wright, that in centenary of 2003 did not used catapults on the flight, following strictly what the diary says to just use catapults in 1904. But the photo 1903 belies this farce.
Another thing " Tri-Axis Control" Big Fight with Glenn Curtis, When you drive a car you have One-Axis Control, When you jump from a airplane with a parachute you have Two-Axis Control. Don't you think most of the pioneer aviators were not working on that , Its Obvious, Natural & Elementary.
@NathansBackwoods Take a look at video clip"Santos Dumont Documentary" NOVA and watch some americans declaring that in some circles Dumont was considered the real inventor of flight others saying that he was bigger than life. Nova has a documentary complete at YT about the Wrights,I wonder where is the complete documentary of Santos Dumont. It is a shock for Americans to know that there was someone VERY IMPORTANT IN AVIATION that they never heard. START GETTING USED TO cause Dumont is the man.
@NathansBackwoods But that's circumstantial. Those aircraft can take off from the ground on a runway without the need for a catapulting takeoff. The Wright flyier NEEDED the slingshot.
100 years passed and the REPLICAS were tried again to see if they could fly. Only the 14 Bis of 1906 and Demoiselle of 2008 could really fly by anyone, many replicas of Santos Dumont were made, all of them could fly, the Wright brothers replicas barely took off. The conclusion is that only the Wright brothers could fly their own plane at that time, they could not fly by someone else today.
My brother Orville and I learned through reading the correspondence from Paris Published in the New York Herald, that the French public had highly appreciated a 220 metre flight in a straight line made by Mr. Santos-Dumont in an airplane of his own construction.
We would like very much to have exact reports of the experiments made at Bagatelle and hope that you will draw up for us a correct list of the trials and give us a description of the flying machine...
@RescGT777 -because they needed to copy of course. Is that what you want to hear, menawhile they have a complete machine waiting on a dock in France, you figure it out genius.
Há ma carta nunca revelada pelos americanos dos irmaos que a enviaram a França procurando informações sobre a tecnologia empregada no super modelo de SD.
There ma letter never revealed by the Americans of the brothers that sent it to France looking for information on the technology used in super model SD.
@demonofrazgriz333 Beacuse Alberto Santos Dumont the one to make this kind of plane, was the first to fly ever recordered, the wright brothers came in after him.
Suckers Americans, the Wright brothers actually made a shit of a wing so I can fly, took a small hill in order to soar. While Alberto Santos Dumont took off with his 14 Bis ultiliza the very means of his aircraft and ground and flight landed plano.Alçou disso.Os ingnorates know you Americans are idiots
Have you read your history? The Wright Brothers were the first to fly. By the time oct. 23,1906 they were already making 20 mile flights. The 14-Bis flew, but very poorly as the controls were not any where near as good as what the Wright Brothers developed. The 14-Bis was a collaboration of Mr. Viosen and Dumont only after Viosen saw a drawing of the Wright Brothers plane and his attempt to copy. He did a poor job.
KILL DEVIL HILLS, North Carolina -- A 100th-anniversary attempt to re-create the Wright brothers' first flight flopped Wednesday when a delicate, wood-and-muslin replica of their airplane failed to get off the ground and splashed into a mud puddle.
The plane, created at a cost of $1.2 M, twisted awkwardly before stopping with its right wing pushed into the sand, leaving a snapped crosswire and broken fitting.
As a crowd estimated at 35,000 groaned, pilot Kevin dropped his head in disappointment
O planador Flyer dos Wright é muito semelhante a um dos aeromodelos que Santos Dumont projetou antes do 14 Bis. Dumont estimulava a cópia de seus projetos pois sonhava com a popularização dos vôos tripulados.
Sorry Santos. While you were playing with hot-air ballonns the Wright Bros solved the problems of powered, manned, controlled flight. And in the process beat you to the air by THREE years !
@jotathnoble Part25:..to give Wilbur his pocket watch, but Wilbur refused and instead, pulled out his pocket watch and gave it to the old man.
This book I mentioned called "From The Ground Up" is filled from cover to cover with stories like this, all taken from the thousands of letters that were written by those involved at the time, the Wright brothers alone had over 31,000 documents that are currently archived at the Franklyn Intitute over in America and I have read through most of them.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part24: ...picked the guy out of the crowd (by this time 10,000 strong) and asked him if he would like to go for a ride! The old man said yes and Wilbur set a world's record that day for flying with a passenger for 10m30sec. In Wilbur's letter home to Orville about that day, he commented that the old gentleman, who couldn't speak any English, was overwhelmed by the experience and kissed Wilbur on both cheeks after, with tears of joy streaming down his face. The old man tried to...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part23:..bicycles from as far away as Paris, 185km to the north. There was a 68 year old gentleman that had made the trip from Paris twice, on his bicycle, that Hart O. Berg told Wilbur about. Wilbur didn't fly every day, but these enthusasists would show every day, hoping to catch a glimpse of Wilbur flying his machine. When Hart told Wilbur about the older gentleman who had ridden his bicycle from Paris for the second time, hoping to see Wilbur and his machine, Wilbur...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part22: ...was so difficult and required several hours of training to handle, Wilbur was stuck with having to do all the flying himself. Orville, the world's only other pilot at the time, was busy flying the military version of the Flyer III at Ft Myer, Virginia, so Wilbur was on his own for several months. One morning, when Wilbur left his hotel early in the morning to ride a bicycle around LeMans, he was greated with nearly 2,000 cheering fans, some who had ridden their...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part 21:...with their invention, it seemed that the whole of Europe was ascending on France and all wishing to catch a glimpse of Wilbur and his flying machine. By reading through all of the personal letters from Wilbur, mostly to his brother Orville, you can gain a real insight into the kind of person he was. He was at times overwhelmed by all the attention paid him even to the point of he being embarassed. Wilbur was a scientist, not an aviator, but because flying their machine..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part20: After Wilbur's months of flight demonstrations in late 1908, Farman, Delagrange, Bleriot, and the Zen brothers spent a great deal of time over in LeMans working with Wilbur, with Henri Farman being the first to purchase a users license from Wilbur so he could apply the Wright's patented control system to his biplane designs. Delagrange ordered the first Flyer the Wrights sold in Europe. Wilbur and then a month later Orville over in America, had so excited the world...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part19:..the US Gov, in Dec1907 for a flying machine, so Orville headed back to America, where his brother Wilbur had gone earlier that year. The following June (1908), Wilbur returned to France, picked up the Flyer III at LeHavre and took it down to LeMans (he didn't want to go anywhere near Paris because he deplored attention) and spent the next month assembling it. On Saturday 8Aug1908, Wilbur flew his first European demo flight and the world was astounded by what they had done.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathnoble Part18:..traveled over to Paris (1907) where he and his European sales manager, Hart O. Berg, had been meeting with officials in France, Belgium, Italy, England, and Germany on those governments purchasing their Flyer. In July(1907), Orville arrived, and he brought with him the Wright's first production Flyer III, but it remained unpacked in its crate at a dockside warehouse in Le Havre, France, where it would remain until May of 1908. The Wrights received the bid request from...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part17:...exciting, so he bought a Voisin brothers biplane and by Sept, he recorded that year's longest flight of 771m. In October, Farman even had his first attempt at the "Grand Prix d'Aviation" award (an award for the first to complete a 360° circle) and though Farman failed, Orville Wright was there to watch and he had some interesting comments. Archdeacon was also there and he really poked a stick at Orville, but Orville just ignored him. The previous May, Wilbur had....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part16: Even after Dumont was able to get off the ground a couple of times in late 1906, the Paris based newspapers started following other Aero Club members that were having success with their machines. Specifically it was Delagrange, Pelterie, Viula, Bleriot, Voisin that were filling the daily headlines for their exploits, but in May1907, Delagrange made news for taking up the first passenger (for 150m), a Paris bicycle builder, Henri Farman. Farman thought it was quite...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part15:..practical type inventions, such as telegraph improvements, new telephones, better lighting systems, etc.. We do know, that for whatever reasons, Dumont had some problem with his airship (all we've been able to find was apparently his dirigible was damaged during shipping from France) and he was unable to actually demonstrate it as he had planned. After that, there is very little about Dumont, with only an occasional mention in the Paris newspapers until 1906.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part14:..to his dirigibles, even on one occasion attending the technology convention over in St Louis, Missouri (America), where he met Thomas Edison, where the promoters arranged for Dumont to put on a demonstration of his airship. The St Louis Convention was an overall technology event, airships were in fact a very minor part of it and details of what, if anything, which occurred concerning aviation is very sketchy at best. The show was more about electrical, new....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part13: ...would only be acheived through an agressive means after the basic HTA design would be based on the concept of "Inherent Instability". Both Voisin and Pelterie stated this concept was totaly backwards in theory, but Ferber thought it was worth checking out. We've not been able to locate anything, one way or another, concerning Santos Dumont's opinion on this subject, other than his statement he thought Chanute was exaggerating. From that point on, Dumont went back...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part12:..other Club members felt Chanute had exaggerated the success of the Wright's gliders). Chanute had also brought with him a science paper, written by Wilbur Wright (it was the text of Wilbur's presentation to the Western Society of Engineers from the previous September) and the Aero Club in-house magazine, L'Aerophile, reprinted Wilbur's paper in total, but most Club members dismissed it, claiming it was totally in error for suggesting that successful flight and control...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part11:..builders in America that had been experimenting with a glider down at a beach called Kitty Hawk. According to Chanute the elder of these brothers, Wilbur Wright, was very astute in the area of understanding aero-dynamics, but most of the Aero Club membership didn't think much of it, except for Ferber. Meanwhile, Santos Dumont (who had stated that HTA flight was a lost cause and regardless that Chanute was excited about those American boys, Dumont, along with several..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part10:...in the Paris newspapers. There was one exception to this (at the Aero Club) and that was Captain Ferber, who had been experimenting with a Lilienthal style glider since the summer of 1900. Then in late 1901, Octave Chanute, a French born retired civil engineer from America, who had been writing to Captain Ferber since 1900, arrrived in Paris to visit friends, including Ferber. Chanute was asked to speak to the Aero Club membership about another pair of bicycle...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part9:..how the day, sometime soon, great airships would not only travel between the European cities, but would cross the oceans too. Dumont was right, but it would be the Germans that would do that, not the French. Up until late 1901, no one in France, or at least no one at the Aero Club, believed that heavier-than-air flight was possible and anyone attempting to successfully build a flying machine like that (an HTA) was only on a fool's errand and Santos Dumont had so stated...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part8: Seeing Santos flying his dirigible around Paris had to be really something to the Parisians and many times he (Santos) would fly his airship at balcony level, with Parisian women throwing their under-garments to him as he slowly passed by! Often times, Santos would land in an open field, very near one of his favorite restaurants, where his ground crew would take of his airship, while he joined friends and he would talk of the future of aviation, telling his friends about..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part7:..no internet, and just a handful of automobiles, but only the very rich had one of those (in 1901, the average cost of an automobile was $5,000 to $25,000 USD, as they were ONLY available from a custom coach maker. Mass production of the automobile was still a decade away into the future). Besides horse and buggy, it was the bicycle that was the rage of the day and one of the most popular bicycles in Paris was made by the Farman brothers, Henri and Maurice (sound familar?)
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part6:..and are something that I want to share, in the event you're unaware of them. I imagine Santos Dumont was some kind of character; young, good-looking, and very rich. I also suspect he was a bit arrogant as well and that is not meant to be a fault of his, it was just the nature of the times and what he had accomplished. Kind of like a modern day rock-star or something of that nature, if you understand me. Remember, at that time there were no movie theatres, no television,..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part5:...was a big deal. The underlying jealousy within the Aero Club became very noticable when the Aero Club members, that were a part of the rules committee for the Deutsch de a Meurthe prize, changed the rules while Dumont was still in flight. The French public (Parisians) nearly rioted over this, so the Aero Club elitists had no choice but to give Dumont his justice (deservingly so in my opinion). The stories surrounding Dumont and his dirigibles are quite interesting..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part4: By early 1901, Santos Dumont had already became a big hit in and around Paris among the commoners (so to speak), but after Dumont won the "Deutsch de la Meurthe" prize for the first to fly from the park at St. Cloud, around the Eiffel Tower, and back to St Cloud in under 30min, with his No.6 dirigible, Santos Dumont became world famous. Santos was now being called "The Great Santos Dumont" by the Paris newspapers and beyond! Considering the early date, Dumont's flight...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part3: I can tell you that after having read through many of the internal documents of the Aero Club de France archives from that period, much of the bigotry toward Santos Dumont is very easily seen, though I'm pretty sure those in that club of that era didn't see it that way. Ernest Archdeacon though was always a supporter of Dumont's,but we suspect that was more than anything, because of Dumont's huge success with his dirigibles as a representative of the Aero Club.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part2: ...a "French" gentlemens club! I know today, that might not mean that much, but at the turn of century Europe, class separation was what society was very prevelant at that time. By 1898 to 1899, after Santos was having much success with his early dirigibles, there was a lot of jealousy within the "club" between the French born members and Santos Dumont, of whom many considered Santos an out-sider, not worthy of the fame he was gaining among the French public.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part31: When Dumont had his one power hop on 13Nov1906, there were an estimated 180 to 200 witnesses, the most ever seen at a Dumont attempt at HTA flight. At Wilbur Wright's first demo flight (LeMans 8Aug1908) there were about 100-120 witnesses. One week later, there were over 30,000 witnesses at LeMans, including several people who had ridden bicycles from Paris to watch (185 km away). When Orville flew his demos at Berlin, 1,500,000 people were there (I have photos of this)!
BearFlight 1 month ago
@BearFlight Well, guess you're right, I'm mature enough to understand that, thanks for the info anyway...
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble There is a more indepth part of the story of early aviation, specifically as it relates to Santos Dumont that I have never seen covered in modern writings. After Archdeacon (who was a very well-known Paris lawyer) had done some work for Santos' father, but after meeting the young Santos, Archdeacon suggest to the young Santos he should become a member of the Aero Club de France. The Aero Club de France was, as I stated earlier, a "Gentlemens Club", but it was more importantly...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 30: The previous posts tell the complete story of Santos Dumont and his involvement with HTAs and this information is all available from the memoirs of Louis Bleriot, the Aero Club de France archives, the Federation Aeronautique Internationale records, the archives of the Paris newspapers Le Matin, Le Journal, and the New York Herald Paris edition, the ACdeF club magazine L'Aerophile, the French National Archives, the private journals of G.Voisin, L.Delagrange, & R.E.Pelterie.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part29:...8 km, but that was the longest flight he would ever make, with a powered HTA, until he announced his retirement from all aviation activities in 1910. Bleriot gave away all rights to his TypeIII mono-wing (Demoiselle) to Dumont and the Clement-Bayard company got excited about it and even pre-built 50 airframes, but after a year had only sold 15 of them, so they dismantled the remaining 35 airframes and used the parts to build Farman II & III biplanes.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part28:...machine and most importantly, Dumont had no clue how to fly a machine designed in the concept of "Inherent Instability". (by Jan of 1909, Dumont's TOTAL time in an HTA was 59 seconds at a time there were other aviators now recording single flights in hours). On 13Feb1909, Dumont made it into the air, for the first time, with his little M19 mono-wing (with Bleriot's help) and soon after called his machine the "Demoiselle". In March 1909, Dumont did have one flight of...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part27:...the Wrights (Orville and sister Katherine had now joined Wilbur in France), who were opening up a flight training school there. Before Bleriot came down to Pau, he designed lift producing airfoils and installed them on Dumont's little mono-wing (Bleriot's 1907 TypeIII) and with the information Wilbur Wright supplied him, Bleriot added a way for Dumont to twist his wing-tips (wing-warping) for lateral control. It had been over 14 months since Dumont had been in an HTA...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part26:..was only able to get if off the ground for a few meters on 17Nov1907, so Dumont put his machine away and never attempted to fly again, until over a year later and after Wilbur Wright had been flying out of LeMans for several months. With Wilbur Wright massive success with the Wright's first production machine (Flyer III "A"), Dumont thought he would give it one last go with Bleriot's help. Bleriot gave Dumont his hanger at Issy, as Bleriot was moving down to Pau with...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part25:...but he never trusted Dumont after that. Archdeacon and Ferber both knew that if the newspapers got wind of the problems over Dumont, all the work they had done the previous year would be for not, so they kept it quiet, but from then on Dumont was on his own. Louis Bleriot was the only ACdeF member that kept up a friendly relationship with Dumont after that and even gave Dumont his (Bleriot's) TypeIII mono-wing that Bleriot flew for nearly 200m in July (1907), but Dumont..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part24:...about "who" had actually designed an built his prize winning 14bis, claiming he and he alone had designed it. 2 days later, during an interview with the same reporter (at Le Matin), Voisin & Pelterie both retorted that Dumont was exaggerating, Dumont had assisted, but it was they that had provided the most design input. Privately, Voisin and Pelterie were livied and wanted Leon Delagrange to throw Dumont out of the ACdeF for lying! Archdeacon stood up for Dumont,...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part23:..it was the world's first flight of an HTA and other such mis-representations (something Archdeacon would come to reget in a few months) and considering just how famous Dumont already was with his dirigibles (and the fact that no one in Europe had ever seen an airplane before), it was no problem for everyone to accept it as a world's first. Unfortunately, for Dumont, in Jan (1907) during an interview with a reporter for the Le Matin (Paris) newspaper, Dumont lied....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part22: ...what Archdeacon needed and Dumont was awarded the Archdeacon/ACdeF award for the first to exceed 100m in a straightline and the newly formed FAI was present to record the flight as the first they had personally observed. Dumont's power hop itself wasn't a "record", as the French aviator Clement Ader (the "father" of French aviation) had made an official flight of 300m on 14Oct1897, so Dumont was 80m short of that, but no matter Archdeacon had the newspapers claim....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part21:...but the first problem was Dumont only had two control wheels, so V-P locked out the 14bis' yaw rudder and re-routed the cable system to Pelterie's ailerons. Dumont would have no ability to turn, but he could control pitch and Pelterie's ailerons would prevent roll by Dumont's ability to maintain level. Finally on 13Nov1906, after 4 trys that day, Dumont got his machine up to sufficient speed the CoP force was high enough for one power hop of 220m. This was just...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part20: After 3 months of failed attempts, Levasseur supplied Voisin with a 50hp Antoinette engine, which was the same size and weight of the 24hp model, then Voisin and Pelterie were convinced it would work. On 24Oct1906, after 5 trys, Dumont managed one hop where the wheels carried for a few meters, but the machine started a left roll Dumont had no ability to prevent. Pelterie then installed the "ailerons", he had developed for his (Pelterie's) 1904 Type du Wright glider,....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 19:...automatic stablization (self-righting), by having very high dihedral. They first tried with Dumont's No14 dirigible envelop attached, but with the balloon envelop attached, several men pulling on ropes, the 14bis' 24hp Antoinette engine just couldn't push it fast enough to get airborne. Voisin convinced Dumont to remove the balloon and they tried again, but the engine (and the 14bis' lack of a propeller) simply couldn't go fast enough to generate any lift.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part18:...of the Wright's 1902 glider and the complete text of their (the Wright's) US Patent #821,393 issued the month before. Additionally, L. Hargrave's (NZ) box kites were standard fare among the French aviators, so Voisin/Pelterie built a rather large, yet very lightweight machine that Dumont called the "14bis". Dumont did provide some input, specifically including one of his baskets from a dirigible, so he could stand while operating the machine. To force the machine into...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part17: ...on numerous occasions. Additionally, Dumont understood nothing about designing an HTA machine, as Dumont had been flying his dirigibles over the previous 8 years, while other members had been working on HTAs. Gabriel Voisin worked for Archdeacon and R.E. Pelterie had worked with Voisin on several occasions so Archdeacon got them together to design and build a machine for Dumont. In June (1906), the ACdeF club magazine, L'Aerophile, published a detailed accounting...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part16: ...in a very public fashion, they could have that feat splashed throughout the world's newspapers, with which they could use to counter any future claims made by the Wrights after. First off, they needed someone already well known to fly a machine, preferably someone attached to the ACdeF, there the answer was clearly Dumont, who was already world famous for his dirigibles, but there was a problem, Dumont didn't believe in HTA flight and he publicly stated so.....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part15: Archdeacon and Ferber were enormously overt French Nationalists and the very thought that the airplane was apparently invented over in the backwards country of America was extraordinarily upsetting to them both, especially Ferber. They just didn't understand why the Wrights never made any public claims of what they had accomplished(?). From this, Archdeacon surmised they had one way to save the "honor" of France left, if they could just get someone into the air...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part14: After only 2 days, Weaver cabled Lahm and told him everything was true and he (Weaver) talked to dozens and dozens of people who had seen the Wrights flying their machine for some time, in and around a train stop called Simms Station (near Huffman-Praire). One farmer told Weaver that he had even complained to the brothers that their noisy contraption was upsetting his chickens, because they were flying high over his farm so often.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part13: Ferber argued that it must be true, Chanute was very specific in describing what they had done, but Archdeacon wasn't so sure..why hadn't there been any newspaper coverage of such an event? Archdeacon decided they had to confirm it, and there was an American businessman, living in Paris, that was also a ACdeF member, L.S.Lahm. Lahm had a brother-in-law (W.S.Weaver) who lived just outside Dayton, so Lahm cabled Weaver to go to Dayton and check it out.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part12: It seems that on the previous 4th and 5th of October, Orville and Wilbur had successfully flown, respectfully, 33.8 km and 38.6 km while circling high over a large field called Huffman-Prarie, outside of Dayton, Ohio. Both Ferber & Archdeacon were stunned and terribly disappointed, it appears the airplane would not be invented in France as they had hoped, but then something happened! Nothing is what happened, no great newspaper headlines, by anyone or by any newspaper!
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part11: ...among the French ACdeF membership, they officially coined the term "Type du Wright" for those machines that were obvious copies of the Wright's gliders. As the Wrights were progressing, Chanute kept the French up to date by cable, first by telling his ACdeF friends about the Wright's success on 17Dec1903, for example, and then on 8Oct1905, Ferber received a most disturbing cable from Chanute!
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part10: Chanute arranged for Ferber to communicate directly with Wilbur Wright, while Chanute occasionaly passed information on to the ACdeF membership he was friendly with. Several with the ACdeF began experimenting with what they had been told were faithful copies of the Wright's machines (specifically Archdeacon, Ferber, Voisin, and Pelterie), but the fact was their machines were no where near like the Wright's machines, and copying of the Wright's biplane were so prevalent ...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 9: ...acheived with an HTA! Of the ACdeF membership in attendence, only Capt Ferber took it seriously, most just reacted in disbelief, with Santos Dumont even making the statement that Chanute was not being truthful, despite his French background, and was only exaggerating the Wright's success. A few months later, Chanute was back in Paris and this time he couldn't contain himself, the Wright's newest machine soared on the air "..like an Eagle"!
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 8: ..to Georges Beancon, editor of the ACdeF in-house magazine, "L'Aerophile", which they reprinted in total. In Wilbur's science paper, he stated that Otto Lilienthal's lift tables (the world's accepted standard at the time) was all wrong and of no use for airfoil design (Wilbur had even referred to Lilienthal's tables as a "..red herring"). Even more unbelievable was that this young man claimed that "Inherent Instability" was the only way success would ever be..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 7: Chanute went on, during his presentation to the ACdeF membership, that these boy's glider was easily the most successful in world history and the older boy's understanding of airfoil design and HTA control was even beyond his (Chanute's) ability to understand. (the biplane Chanute claimed he had designed had actually been designed by Augusta Herring, one of Chanute's protégés from 1896). Chanute also gave a copy of young Wilbur's speech to the Western Society of Engineers..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 6: A month after Dumont made his Eiffel Tower dirigible flight, a French born civil engineer (retired) from America, showed up and gave a presentation to the Aero Cub membership. Octave Chanute was quite famous and respected in Paris and his presentation was about these two American brothers who had been extrordinarily successful with a glider (Octave claimed he had designed it) and the older brother even had presented his findings to the WSofE, of which Chanute was President.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 5: ...the story goes! Dumont also kept the 125K francs presented to him from the Brazilian government. This was just an extraordinary accomplishment, Dumont wasn't the first to fly a powered/controlled dirigible, but there was no question he was the best, in the world, at it. Santos Dumont was so admired (deservingly so), he couldn't go anywhere in Paris unrecognized, and he even inspired Jules Verne to write "Master of the World" (one of my personal favorite movies too).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 4: ...going to cross over the field just within the 30 min time limit, so the rules commitee stated the 30 min limit was for his landing, not his making it to the field. The commitee said Dumont wasn't due the prize (125K francs), because it took him too long, but the Paris public went bananas, so the rules commitee relented and gave him the prize (the Brazilian government also matched it). Dumont kept 50K francs for himself and gave 75K francs to the Paris "poor" or so...
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 3: To the Parisians of that time, rather you used a balloon, a dirigible, a glider, or whatever, "flying" was "flying". There was an element within the Club though that didn't look at Dumont in a fair an equal way, call it bigotry or call it what you will, that bigotry became evident when Dumont flew his #6 airship from StCloud to the ET and back in 1901. As Dumont crossed the field (StCloud), the ACdeF rules commitee changed the rules, when it became obvious Dumont was....
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 2: The unique thing about Archeacon and the others, and what was so extraordinary, was their's wasn't "just" a gentlemen's club, it was an "Aero Club", the first ever conceived anywhere. Where better though than the home of the Mongolfier brothers than Paris, right? All the founders of ACdeF were "balloonist" and when this extremely wealthy, flamboyant, and good looking young man joined, who had an unusual bent toward dirigibles, he very quickly became the darling of the club.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble There's something you need to understand, I have no agenda here, other than the truth. If Santos Dumont had really contributed anything to early aviation, I would be the first to point that out, but the reality is that Santos Dumont had nothing whatsoever to contribute, at least anything of any consequence, except maybe the wrist-watch. I don't speak from opinion either, everything I've posted can be confirmed by easily available documents, letters, archive data, newspapers, etc..
BearFlight 1 month ago
@BearFlight Yes, I was refering to this flight that you mentionated, and I did some research here, and what I find out so far is that, basicly, Wright Brothers and Dumont will always be in a duel, safe sources contradict each other, we will never get the facts right. I looked for some info about WB, some said x, other y, same for Dumont.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@BearFlight We basicly can stay here in a struggle for ever, with no conclusion after all, as if a simple discussion wasn't chaotic enough, let's just stop this pointless thing as mature people, as I said, no source is safe in this case, it will result in no were.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Part 1: Actually, you and I are discussing two sides of a different argument. As a historian, when studying something that occurred over 100 years ago, you have to try and put your mind into the era. The early pioneers, especially those with the Aero Club de France, were all aviators and very nearly all very wealthy individuals. The Aero Club de France initially was founded, more than anything, as an exclusive "gentlemen's club". Something quite common at that time in Paris.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble The basic confusion that many of you have concerning the early aviators, is that you just don't understand the difference between just getting airborne with a dynamic HTA and getting airborne with a dynamic HTA and then actually "flying"? By that I mean, taking-off, climbing, banking, turning, circling, descending, and landing at eactly the spot the operator intended. The Wright brothers were the first whom developed the original technology allowing an aviator to do just that.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble After Dumont failed with his M18 (17Nov1907), he gave up an went back to his No.16 airship dirigible, stating that HTAs would never amount to anything, claiming that the future was in LTAs, not HTAs. After Wilbur Wright "stunned" the French and the world on 8Aug1908, Dumont (with Louis Bleriot's help) finally was succesful with his M19, after Bleriot installed airfoils and wing-warping provided by Wilbur Wright, in Jan1909. Dumont's M19 was just too impractical to be of any use.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble The reason I didn't include Dumont in that list of French aviators is because the machines he used in 1906/1907 were not his, except for his M15 and M17 biplane tractors and neither worked. Dumont was very good with LTAs, but when it came to HTAs, he was as lost as the dozens of other individuals that tried in France at that time. Dumont's M18 mono-wing (later called Demoiselle) was actually the Bleriot TypeIII he (Bleriot) gave to Dumont, but Dumont failed with it too. until 1909.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Those early French aviators I already mentioned, had all failed to get gliders to work (especially Voisin and Ferber) so they jumped to engines, which only forced their machines into the air by thrust rather than aerodynamics. That is why they struggled so much, that was until Wilbur demonstrated the world's first "true" airplane to them on 8Aug1908 at LeMans. Every "official" group (the FAI specifically) flatly states that the Wright brothers were the first with the practical HTA.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble If you "really" think that gliders and powered HTAs are different, then I suggest you do a web search for the largest glider ever, the "Gimli Glider"! You might find it interesting and instructive. The reason the French aviators of 1906-1908 all failed (Voisin, Pelterie, Bleriot, Viula, de Pischolf, Farman, Ferber, and Delagrange), was they failed to gain success first with gliders before going to dynamic flight. The Wrights perfected their science 1st with gliders then dynamic.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble The "ONLY" machines Dumont attempted to fly, that were of his own design, were his Model 15 biplane tracter in Feb1907 (it was so poorly designed and constructed, it fell apart thefirst time Dumont attempted to taxi) and his Model17 biplane tracter on 14Nov1907, but he only managed a single power hop of 203m which was sadly 100m to 500m short of 7 other French aviators from that year. Between Nov1907 and Jan1909, the only thing Dumont flew was his No16 airship LTA dirigible.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@BearFlight Then if they are the same thing, you bascily can change airplane enginnes for a catapult in the airport... I do not consider an glider the same thing as an airplane...
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Well, if you don't think gliders and dynamic HTAs are the same thing, then I'm sorry you understand so little about aircraft. Your comment about "catapults" also tells me something else. I assume you're referring to the Wrights use of a catapult with their machines starting on 4Sept04. The Wrights were not aviators, they were engineers and their use of a catapult was strictly as a safety device nothing more. Their machines took-off with or without it many times.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble During 1907 and early 1908, do you know how many different individuals attempted to fly in Europe (specifically France)??? We have a list (including photographs of their machines) of 47 different people! Do you know how many were successful, not at just getting off the ground, but actually flying? NONE, not until Wilbur Wright at LeMans on 8Aug1908. On 17Nov1907, after Dumont failed with Bleriot's TypeIII MWing (which he later called the Demosielle), Dumont gave up until 1909.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble As far as Dumont having designed the 14bis, I didn't say that he didn't, Gabriel Voisin and Robert Esnault-Pelterie said they did it for Dumont, in a Jan1907 issue of the Le Matin newspaper during an interview. Dumont lied! In Jan1906, Dumont had publicly stated that HTA flight was impossible, but after ACdeF member L.S. Lahm confirmed the Wright's success (38.6 km flight in 1905), Archdeacon convinced Dumont to try, with Voisin & Pelterie's help (ACdeF 1906 archive is my source).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble As for Dumont's record(?), Dumont never set a record (FAI) in a dynamic HTA, but his attempts were "recorded" by the FAI. The FAI "official" flight record list (listed in 2Jan09 issue of the British magazine "Flight") does show Dumont had a 50m hop on 24Oct06 and 4 hops on 13Nov06 (longest of 220m), but they are all short of the "official" first flight (according to the FAI) of Clement Ader on 14Oct1897 for 300m. Dumont did receive a minor award from the ACdeF for his 13Nov06 hop.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble In 1905 the Wrights "test" flew their Flyer III mule 55 times, including their 4Oct and 5Oct fuel endurance flights which were witnessed by 1,100 witnesses, including invited newspaper reporters. On the 4th, Orville flew 33.8 km before running out of fuel and on the 5th, Wilbur went 38.6 km before he run out of fuel, and in both cases they glided safely down to a soft landing. Their journals contain detailed maps of their flights and all pertinent data (wind sp & dir, route, etc).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@BearFlight So... you're basicly saing that Dumont didn't desingned nor used his model? Which was recorded? And that the use of gravity to propel a plane is the same thing that using a engine? If Wrights moddel actualy could fly like a normal plane, I wouldn't argue if he could actualy fly like a true airplane, but in that case is the same thing that a glider, and yes, they are diferet. Dumont used his airplane, that is out of discussion, and WB was merely an glider, no discussion on that too.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble I know you're having difficulty in understanding this, but gliders or dynamic aircraft are the same thing. There are 3 basic things to successful flight, "Thrust", "Lift", and "Control". With soaring flight, "Thrust" is provided by gravity, with dynamic flight, its an engine with a propeller (until the engine quits and the dynamic machine now becomes a soaring machine). Birds produce thrust by flapping their wings, but its their wing shape that allows them to soar on the winds.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble You should know that the Wrights, as experimenters, developed their Flyer II (1904) for "testing only" and during 1904, test flew it 105 times, every single flight was photographed and every single flight data results were entered into their engineering journals. On test flight #83,Wilbur competed 4 complete circles at 15m AGL and covered 4.43km, duly witnessed by Amos Root, editor of "Gleanings in Bee Culture". The test Flyer III (1905) was developed from their 1904 test data.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Other quotes after Wilbur's 1st demo flight: “..Wilbur Wright has completely dissipated all doubts. Not one of the former detractors of the Wrights dare question, today, the previous experiments of the men who are truly the first to fly…..” (Georges Beancon, editor of ACdeF official magazine "L'Aerophile")! “...the Wrights have beaten us all with their machine and I want one!” (Leon Delagrange).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble You want an education on the truth, just read through the extensive list of quotes (and by whom) in the Paris newspapers, over the days immediately following Wilbur's first flight demonstration on 8Aug1908 out at LeMans. I'll give you one “..for months I have witnessed what I had thought were flights of an airplane, but today I find I just witnessed my first airplane flight, ever!” (FAI Official at LeMans that day).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Because the Wrights did empirical measuring of their 1900 & 1901 gliders down at Kitty Hawk, they discovered the errors for lift calculation of both Sir George Cayley (1847) and Otto Lilienthal in 1890 (who also used Smeathon's Coefficient of Pressure value of k=0.0054,which was also in error). Other European engineers (Whenham and Phillips) had correctly assumed specific parts of the theoritical science (aspect ratio and pressure differential), but they never published their data.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble The Wright's greatest contribution to aviation, other than the invention of Aeronautical Engineering & the world's first airplane, was Wilbur's conceptional idea of "Inherent Instability" and the 3-axis control system to make it all work. The world's first airplane was actually the Wright's 1902 glider, but their first "test" only dynamic machine, the Flyer I, was only intended to fly that one day and it was designed to the very minimum specs for flight, intentionally. It worked!
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Airfoil design is a very complex engineering problem and though Wilbur Wright didn't invent the airfoil, he did discover the interrelationship of CoL/CoD and the influence of cord-line camber and aspect ratio have on either. Their "truly" most revoluntionary invention were the "balance scales" they designed to accurately measure an airfoil's performance and then the mathematics to accurately convert that data to provide an airfoil with predictable lift performance.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Go the website Flightglobal dotcom, click on the "archives" tab, then do a "search" for "Flight". There you can read through every issue of the weekly British magazine called Flight, beginning with the 2Jan1909 edition. In that first edition, go to page 10 and there you will see the "OFFICIAL" Federation Aeronautique International European flight attempts listing up through 15Dec1909. You'll note that Dumont was NOT the official first flight, Clement Ader was.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario Starting back in 1927, the International Society of Engineers began awarding the "The Wright Brothers Medal" to an engineer or engineers for outstanding acheivements in either aviation and/or aerospace. This award has been given to AE or ASEs from over 30 different countries, for developments like"Low Speed Control Surface Flutter Reduction" or "Transient Characteristics in Turbine Blade Stall". What better than to receive an award in the name of the first Aeronautical Engineers.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@BearFlight Ahhh... it's sad how you americans think that stuff are the way you want, Wright Brothers have no reconing outside US, Dumont Model was extremly sucefull back there, 14 bis plane was sucefull, if you don't think so I fear your sources are incorrect, and you cannot say that Dumont had any credit on early aviation, serveral baloons models were made and used by him, safer as technology would let it be...
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble First of all, I'm not American, I'm a retired British AE. Unfortunately, the documents concerning early aviation are not imaginary, they do exist. In 1902, the Wrights science paper on their aerodynamic research was published worldwide and it revolutionized airfoil performance and design. Wilbur Wright's conceptional idea on "Inherent Instability" was unique and original and it also, once shown to the world, allowed the world to design successful aircraft.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Concerning the 14bis, it NEVER flew and Dumont DID NOT design it, G.Voisin and R.Esnault-Pelterie did, that is NOT arguable.Go check the archives of the Le Matin from Jan1907 and there you will see an interview with Dumont where he LIED to the reporter, which nearly got him ejected from the Aero Club de France. By reading through the 1907 newspapers (Paris) Le Matin, Le Journal, New York Herald, L'Aerophile, they chronicle Dumont's continous string of failures throughout 1907.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@BearFlight WB plane model wasn't good enough to be turned into a plane, as it was a glider, with external aid, it could fly, but it wasn't a plane, you can credit them for beeingh pioners in the winged fly, but that's all, outside US you won't see many people talking about them, the only reason for you americans to belive that WB was a plane, is because they were americans, but people outside France or Brazil also belive on Dumont model...
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@BearFlight Your arogance made the American aviation have a pushback, 10 years wasted thinking that everthing that is american is supperior, France is gratefull on the other hand, as French planes were brought by US, i'm not taking away WB credit, as I said, they were pionners on winged flight, but giving them the credits for making an airplane (instead of a glider) is completly wrong. American proofs that WB made a PLANE are all falses.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@BearFlight I'm not putting my patriotic faith against you, there are alot of proofs that you can easily check, this ones are not covered by patriotic faith like WB on US, please, just check them.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Something else, soaring and dynamic flight are the same thing my friend, one is powered by an engine and the other by gravity, but the science and technology that make either successful is identical. Aviation historians & Aeronautical/Aerospace engineers here in Europe are sick and tired of those that continue to ignore the obvious concerning those two American boys and what they gave to the world. Get over it. They were scientists NOT aviators, they hated to fly by the way.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario All of you that fail to celebrate Dumont's accomplishments with LTAs, but continue to spread the false lies about his HTA flights (or lack of), only bring disgrace and dishonor to Dumont's memory. Even more of a disgrace is how you dishonor the memory of those that actually did the "real" work, many of whom lost their lives in the attempt to progress the technology of the HTA (Lilienthal, Pilcher, Ferber, Delagrange, Selfridge, Cody, Lefebvre, Rolls, Rodgers, and dozens of more).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario You might want to also check out what H.M. Biust (reporter for the Aero Club of the United Kingdom official magazine, "Flight") stated about Dumont's M19 Demoiselle after Dumont displayed it during the Air Machine Convention at the Olympic, in March of 1909. He (Biust) called it an "..impractical child's toy". Dumont entered his Demoiselle in the 1909 Reims Air Meet, but with Dumont's total lack of experience and the Demoiselle's lack of speed & poor handling, he failed to qualify.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario EVERYTHING I have posted is a matter of record and are the absolute facts. It was once said by an American President (Reagan) that "....facts are a bothersome thing!" You also might want to check out what the Clement-Bayard Company (France) did, after they tried to sell Dumont's 1909 M19 Demoiselle (Dumont's 1st flyable machine)! They (CB) pre-built 50 M19 airframes, but after a year had only sold 15, so they scraped the remaining 35 & used the parts to build Farman II&III biplanes.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario In 1909, G.Voisin and R.Esnault-Pelterie described (in the newspaper Le Journal) how they designed the 14bis for Dumont from the detailed blueprints of the Wright's 1902 glider, as published in the L'Aerophile magazine (official publication of the Aero Club de France) in early 1906. They crossed the Wright's 1902 glider with L. Hargrave's (NZ) famous box kites. "Officially", the 14bis was classified a "Type du Wright" by the Aero Club de France in 1906.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario Between 1908 and 1910, the Wright brothers received 35 special awards, including: Gold medals of engineering acheivement from AeroClubdeFrance & AeroClubofthe United Kingdom & the French Academy of Sciences, the French Legion of Honour (twice), US Medal of Honor and the French Academy of Sciences nominated Wilbur Wright for the Nobel Prize in engineering in 1909. Additionally they received 15 engineering docorates from UofMunich, UofParis, SAof London, MIT, Yale, Harvard, plus more.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario Are you aware that Dumont DID NOT design his 14bis? G. Voisin and R. Esnault-Pelterie did. In January 1909, Dumont LIED to a Le Matin newspaper reporter, falsely claiming he had designed the 14bis, so Dumont was going to be ejected from the Aero Club de France by ACdeF President Leon Delagrange for breaking club rules (for publicly lying about fellow club members). Archdeacon convinced the club membership to withhold their punishment of Dumont, but he was never trusted after that.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario Officially (FAI records), Santos Dumont's TOTAL flight time (dynamicHTA) on 1Jan1909 was 59 seconds (the day before, Wilbur Wright recorded his 100 hour of flight time while making two flights for 2hr 38m and 1hr 55m covering 207 kilometers total in the process). In Sept1903, Orville Wright had one flight of his 1902 glider extend to 79 seconds and he didn't have an engine. In 1911 Orville flew their new glider on 1 flight for 9m 55s, a record that stood for over 10 years.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@kadudidario You had better check your sources my friend. The first person to actually get off the ground in a dynamic HTA (man-carrying) was Felix du Temple (FR) in Oct1874. Officially (FAI records) it was Clement Ader on 14Oct1897 for 300m. Something else, Dumont's first power hop of 50m was on "24Oct1906" NOT the 23rd. Go to Flightglobal dotcom, click on "archives" and look up the 2Jan1909 issue of "Flight" magazine. On page 10 is the "official" FAI record listing current through 15Dec1908.
BearFlight 1 month ago
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Aviation was born in France
pradobsb 1 month ago
All the Hispanics on this page are nationalist dickwads. To attempt to discredit the Wright brothers using poorly researched and anecdotal "evidence" is a waste of time to respond to.
beeroosterm 2 months ago
Wright brothers HAVE credits on making the first flying machine, NOT A PLANE, Dumont model WAS A PLANE, that could take off by itself, without any external help, it was AFTER WRIGHT BROTHERS MODEL, but it was A PLANE, you guys are beeing the nationalist.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Dumont's "first" actual flight of an aircraft didn't occur until 13Feb1909, as per FAI official records. FAI records also state 1st flight from level ground unassisted was Clement Ader on 14Oct1897. 1st flight from level ground unassisted with an aircraft capable of sustained & controlled flight was Orville Wright 17Dec1903. First circle was Wilbur Wright 20Sept1904 (4 circles for 4.43 km).
BearFlight 1 month ago
@beeroosterm Proof of that? On WWI US spent thousands of dollars with planes FROM FRANCE, and american aviation took a 10 years pushback, you can check that.
jotathenoble 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Once you study the documents, official records, letters, journals, newspaper accounts, registered science papers, official club records, etc., you'll find that of all the early pioneers, particularly those aviators connected to the ACdeF, Santos Dumont was the least successful. Dumont had NO understanding of HTA design/construction and EVERY single one of his machines were designed&built by someone else for him. His 1st success was his M19 and that was a copy of Bleriot's TypeIII.
BearFlight 1 month ago
@jotathenoble Before 13Feb1909, Dumont's longest power hop was 220m on 13Nov1906. Then on 14Nov1907 (M17) for 203m and 17Nov1907 (M18 Bleriot Type III mono-wing) for 145m. During 1907, 7 different members had numerous flights much further with Delagrange, Farman, Bleriot, and Pelterie being the best. The Paris newspapers ('07) were so relentless against Dumont for his failures, he simply gave up until 1909 and after Bleriot and Wilbur Wright rebuilt Bleriot's 1907 Type III for him (Dumont).
BearFlight 1 month ago
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Sorry my Brazilian friend, but the Wright Brothers did have an engine. The gliders were from 1900-1902. The first 2 flights ion Dec 17th, 1903. 105 more flights in 1904 and some were unassisted, where they did not use the catapult system. The big breakthrough came in 1905. Between Sept. 26th and Oct. 5th of that year, the Wright Brothers flew 6 long flights. The longest being 24.5 miles (39.4 km) in 38 minutes & 3 seconds. the second longest was 20.75 miles in 33 minutes & 17 seconds.
darylboyettelive 2 months ago
A briga provocada pelos irmãos Wright a respeito de repelente, mesquinha, repulsiva e nojenta disputa por dinheiro atrasou a aviação americana durante vinte anos. Durante a I Guerra Mundial tiveram que utilizar aviões franceses, como o Nieuport 17, SPAD VII, o SPAD XIII. Os conhecimentos dos norte-americanos eram tão primários que os franceses empurraram uma porcaria de avião chamado Nieuport 28, produzido em grandes quantidades, e que nenhum piloto francês queria.
CaxiasFreguesia 3 months ago
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Em dezembro de 2003 uma replica tentou alçar vôo e não conseguiu, vergonhosamente. TODAS as réplicas do 14 Bis voam, mesmo as mais elementares, construídas em fundo de quintal. Enquanto os americanos estavam com seu biplano, tanto Blériot, Voisin, Duperdussin e outros já estavam com monoplanos. Dumont construiu um formidável avião, o Demoiselle, NUNCA COBROU NADA POR ISSO, nunca foi mercenário, egoísta, mesquinho, pequeno de caráter.
CaxiasFreguesia 3 months ago
Robert Thelen, ALEMÃO, projetista dos famosos caças Albatross afirmou que uma máquina pesando mais de 350 kg JAMAIS levantaria vôo em TODAS as condições com um motor de apenas ... 12 HP.
CaxiasFreguesia 3 months ago
Mas isso aí é VERGONHOSO. Santos Dumont e outros pioneiros, como Otto Lilienthal, Blériot, Saulnier fizeram suas experiências às claras. Os Irmãos Wright patentearam em 1903 um planador. Escondidos na desculpa da patente, jamais permitiram que alguém conferisse sua máquina, "queriam vender antes" rs, rs, rs. Os descendentes de Orville quando consultados se autorizavam a exposição do engenho no Smithsonian concordaram com uma condição: QUE FOSSE ATRIBUÍDA AOS IRMÃOS a "invenção" do avião.
CaxiasFreguesia 3 months ago
patriotic pride is getting in the way here.
wright brothers: first heavier than air, powered, controlled flight. even though it was "aided" by a track.
santos dumont: first PRACTICAL airplane. also made the first "unaided" takeoff.
whatever. most french and american people are assholes lol
taterfamine 4 months ago
@taterfamine No one involef is frech hahah Alberto Santos-Dumont is Brasilian. He lived in france tho lol.
manta965 2 months ago
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fvgdfbdokd 5 months ago
first aircraft to fly? No that honor goes to the Wright Flyer.
fvgdfbdokd 5 months ago
os irmaos wright são uns merdas!!!
murilogazoli 7 months ago
Paranoid is serious desease and one of the important symtoms is delusional desorder. The brothers are not the VITIMS. They just didn't have what to take to prove that they really flied. Why you guys cannot accept this fact? Was Alberto Santos Dumont who is considered from the "REST" of the world the Father of Aviation who first flied. Santos took off and landed without help of anything like the brothers did. Catapult, slingshot, spoon....This is ridiculus...
zmangmz 7 months ago
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This(14 Bis) is the very first OFFICIAL power flight, Adler, Pearson, Wrights(picture) never showed up for the competition, if they did they could be the first official first power flight doing a better job than the small hops of Dumont's.
Verdelufe 8 months ago
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST AIRPLANE TO FLY
Ramster211 8 months ago
So an aircraft launched off an aircraft carrier isn't a plane? is a sea plane not a plane either because it doesn't have wheels? that is ridiculous. The catapult made the takeoff shorter. The Wright flyer touched down and took off again a few times during its first flight in 1903. That's called flying.
brentsrx7 9 months ago
@brentsrx7 Flyer I never flew in 1903 my friend, this is more an American fable. Similar to the story of Thomas Edison had invented the incandescent lamp. The real inventor is the Englishman Joseph Swan (patent, 1979). Edison plagiarized, was prosecuted and madean agreement with Swan. This story not is disclose in USA. In 1951 Alpheus Drinkwater, an eyewitness told the New York Times that never flew Flyer I in 1903, just glided.
agente9009 7 months ago
@agente9009 How about you learn how to read, go read the accounts of the people who witnessed the flight and did interviews for the local paper. How about you go look at the photographs. How about you read about their flights in 1904, 1905, and 1906 some lasting over 20 minutes. how about you not lecture me about the dispute between Edison and Swan. Edison did not invent the incandescent lamp, he invented the light bulb. He stole nothing and was not aware it was patented before his.
brentsrx7 7 months ago
@agente9009 The difference between Swan's design and Edison's was that Edison's actually worked. People had been heating a piece of wire for years before swan and edition. Edison invented the light bulb. Like the Wright brothers invented controlled flight. BTW there are many photo's and hundreds of historical documents of their flights from 1903 to 1906 long before the 14 bis ever attempted to bounce across that field in France.
brentsrx7 7 months ago
@brentsrx7 American of shit. Ignorant motherfucker. You do know not read son of prostitute? Swan's patent is 1879 and Edison in 1881. You do not want to talk about the Edison and Swan dispute because it reveals the truth about the story liar USA. The photos are evidence of Wright? Fuck off jerk. . Drinkwater unmasked the lie of the Wright Brothers never flew in 1903. Read the New York Times, 1951 son of bitch.
agente9009 7 months ago
@brentsrx7 Liar. Trying to justify the lies of U.S. If this were true the court would not convicted Edison, and he was forced to make a deal. See also the lie of Wright: They said they did not use catapults in 1903, only in 1904, but when you enlarge the photo alleged flight of 1903, is possible see the hook of catapult at the end of the rail. Liars son of bitch.
agente9009 7 months ago
@brentsrx7 The story U.S is full of lies: Thomas Edison invented the light bulb (actually is a thief that stole Tesla, Swan and others), Wright flew in 1903 (the Flyer was a glider of 300kl with an ridiculous engine of 12hp), but the hoax was unmasked by Drinkwater, he said the New York Times in 1951, the Flyer I just glided, never flew. The weapons in Iraq, the most blatant lie that the Americans told us last decade. Fuck we country of liars.
agente9009 7 months ago
@brentsrx7 Not despertice your time trying to justify the lies of their country of shit. The whole world is tired of American lies and fables. Europe, Asia, Africa and South and Central America know that there are two stories. The real story and the story American manufactured with fables. See this lie: The Flyer I, took off without catapult in 1903, but the photo shows the hook at the catapult in end of the rail. Do me a favor, go fuck of bastard american.
agente9009 7 months ago
@brentsrx7 And before you pretend to be naive, and claims does not know what I mean, you self can enlarge the photo of the alleged flight of 1903. Go to Google, copy and enlarge the photo. At the end of the rail you can see the hook of the catapult. This picture proves that the Wrights are liars, they said they just used catapult in 1904. The photo belies their assertion.
agente9009 7 months ago
@agente9009 They never claimed that? They used a catapult in 1903, that is no secret. But that in no way discredits their flight, unless f18's shot off aircraft carriers are not planes either because of their catapult. The wright flyer landed on its skids and took off again multiple times on that first flight for stints of up to 13 seconds of controlled powered flight.
brentsrx7 7 months ago
@brentsrx7 Sorry, but you are misinformed. The diary of Wright, written by them contains information on 7 September 1904: "... catapult first used this date to help takeoff." But this affirmation of Wright is FALSE, the photo of the alleged flight of 1903, you can see the hook of catapult at the end of the rail. Therefore, to say they used catapult the first time was in 07/09/1904, is an blatant lie.
agente9009 7 months ago
@agente9009 Can you read properly? They used a catapult in 1903, you need to check your sources on his personal diary. Nobody is claiming that they didn't use a catapult in 1903. This is common knowledge, eye witnesses attested to their being a catapult that first flight, so wtf are you talking about?
brentsrx7 6 months ago
@brentsrx7 Do not try to escape the truth. In the diary have statement that the Wrights used the catapult for the first time on 7 September 1904. This information in diary them is a BLATANT LIE. The photograph presented by themselves, the supposed flight of 1903, shows the hook of catapult at the end of the trail. Liars son of a bitch.
agente9009 6 months ago
@agente9009 I actually wasted my time to research your claims.... As you have well proven, you have a VERY HARD TIME with English reading comprehension. I looked into the diaries, and what you probably read was in reference to their improved catapult system that they were using for the first time in 1904. Please stop wasting my time and pick up Rosetta Stone or something.
brentsrx7 6 months ago
@brentsrx7 American of shit, trying to distort the facts. In the daily reports that Wright used the catapult for the first time on September 7, 1904. Any child 2 years of U.S. knows that. You do not know how to interpret text ignorant american? You have reason, no despertice your time here, despertice their time going back to school, moron illiterate.
agente9009 6 months ago
@brentsrx7 The proof that the U.S. believes the lie of Wright (who did not used catapult in 1903) is that in centenary in 2003 did not catapult used in an attempt to repeat what they aleged: Did not used catapult in 1903, catapult first used in September 1904. Fuck you stupid son of a bitch, you do not even know the story of their country.
agente9009 6 months ago
@agente9009 If you comment one more time on my posts I am reporting you to Youtube. NOBODY IS CLAIMING THAT THEY DID NOT USE A CATIPULT IN 1903 YOU GOD DAMN IDIOT. Just because on the sentential they decided not to use a catapult has nothing to do with your claims about 1903.
brentsrx7 6 months ago
@brentsrx7 I'm not afraid of their threats. These threats indicate that you have no arguments and flees the truth. The diary claimed that Wright did not use catapult in 1903, only in 1904. The U.S. believes in lie of Wright, who in the 2003 centenary trying repeat flight without catapult, as have aleged the Wrights. But the photo supposed flight 1903 belies the Wrights. You reporting me to Youtube? Feel free.
agente9009 6 months ago
@brentsrx7 No one claims that did not use catapults in 1903? The diary of Wright claims that did not use. The United States believes it blindly in claims Wright, that in centenary of 2003 did not used catapults on the flight, following strictly what the diary says to just use catapults in 1904. But the photo 1903 belies this farce.
agente9009 6 months ago
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Another thing " Tri-Axis Control" Big Fight with Glenn Curtis, When you drive a car you have One-Axis Control, When you jump from a airplane with a parachute you have Two-Axis Control. Don't you think most of the pioneer aviators were not working on that , Its Obvious, Natural & Elementary.
Verdelufe 11 months ago
@oprah999, and so do jets on aircraft carriers...wright bros, still first powered flight.
NathansBackwoods 1 year ago
@NathansBackwoods Take a look at video clip"Santos Dumont Documentary" NOVA and watch some americans declaring that in some circles Dumont was considered the real inventor of flight others saying that he was bigger than life. Nova has a documentary complete at YT about the Wrights,I wonder where is the complete documentary of Santos Dumont. It is a shock for Americans to know that there was someone VERY IMPORTANT IN AVIATION that they never heard. START GETTING USED TO cause Dumont is the man.
Verdelufe 1 year ago
@NathansBackwoods But that's circumstantial. Those aircraft can take off from the ground on a runway without the need for a catapulting takeoff. The Wright flyier NEEDED the slingshot.
mwhite112393 9 months ago
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100 years passed and the REPLICAS were tried again to see if they could fly. Only the 14 Bis of 1906 and Demoiselle of 2008 could really fly by anyone, many replicas of Santos Dumont were made, all of them could fly, the Wright brothers replicas barely took off. The conclusion is that only the Wright brothers could fly their own plane at that time, they could not fly by someone else today.
Verdelufe 1 year ago
dan mereka mengatakan bahawa bahkan sampah boleh terbang
warp13 1 year ago
“Dear Captain Ferber,
My brother Orville and I learned through reading the correspondence from Paris Published in the New York Herald, that the French public had highly appreciated a 220 metre flight in a straight line made by Mr. Santos-Dumont in an airplane of his own construction.
We would like very much to have exact reports of the experiments made at Bagatelle and hope that you will draw up for us a correct list of the trials and give us a description of the flying machine...
RescGT777 1 year ago
@RescGT777 -because they needed to copy of course. Is that what you want to hear, menawhile they have a complete machine waiting on a dock in France, you figure it out genius.
warp13 1 year ago
Há ma carta nunca revelada pelos americanos dos irmaos que a enviaram a França procurando informações sobre a tecnologia empregada no super modelo de SD.
There ma letter never revealed by the Americans of the brothers that sent it to France looking for information on the technology used in super model SD.
RescGT777 1 year ago
whydo somany people not know about the wright brothers flight at kitty hawk?!
demonofrazgriz333 1 year ago
@demonofrazgriz333 Beacuse Alberto Santos Dumont the one to make this kind of plane, was the first to fly ever recordered, the wright brothers came in after him.
tinyman12323 1 year ago
@tinyman12323 internationally, but their first demonstrations to the public in america were less than a year later.
demonofrazgriz333 1 year ago
os wrights sao merda!
GabrielBeraldi 1 year ago
Suckers Americans, the Wright brothers actually made a shit of a wing so I can fly, took a small hill in order to soar. While Alberto Santos Dumont took off with his 14 Bis ultiliza the very means of his aircraft and ground and flight landed plano.Alçou disso.Os ingnorates know you Americans are idiots
nosdow 1 year ago
@nosdow youre just a troll posting the same thing on every wright brothers and 14 bis video you could find.
PvtGaryRoach 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nosdow How dumb are you?
ROBLOXobama1337 1 year ago
Santos Dumont invented the airplane four years ''after'' the Wright brother....lol
mincewicz 1 year ago
Have you read your history? The Wright Brothers were the first to fly. By the time oct. 23,1906 they were already making 20 mile flights. The 14-Bis flew, but very poorly as the controls were not any where near as good as what the Wright Brothers developed. The 14-Bis was a collaboration of Mr. Viosen and Dumont only after Viosen saw a drawing of the Wright Brothers plane and his attempt to copy. He did a poor job.
cashstore1 1 year ago
lies
sainmass 1 year ago
@sainmass You are really ignorant.
cashstore1 1 year ago
this is gay
8159613 1 year ago
Could americans do the same as brazilians and show their "first" plane take off by itself? What about a demonstration?
matazap 1 year ago
Santos Dumont is the REAL father of aviation! No questions. Brazil just didn't and still don't have the media power as U.S.
matazap 1 year ago
KILL DEVIL HILLS, North Carolina -- A 100th-anniversary attempt to re-create the Wright brothers' first flight flopped Wednesday when a delicate, wood-and-muslin replica of their airplane failed to get off the ground and splashed into a mud puddle.
The plane, created at a cost of $1.2 M, twisted awkwardly before stopping with its right wing pushed into the sand, leaving a snapped crosswire and broken fitting.
As a crowd estimated at 35,000 groaned, pilot Kevin dropped his head in disappointment
roneycorrea 1 year ago
O planador Flyer dos Wright é muito semelhante a um dos aeromodelos que Santos Dumont projetou antes do 14 Bis. Dumont estimulava a cópia de seus projetos pois sonhava com a popularização dos vôos tripulados.
MegaVideodrome 2 years ago
Sorry Santos. While you were playing with hot-air ballonns the Wright Bros solved the problems of powered, manned, controlled flight. And in the process beat you to the air by THREE years !
jrlueken 2 years ago