Mountain Meadow Massacre 9-11-1857 Blood Atonement Doctrine

[jreidtastic]

MrBigbear6718... I gave you the "Thumbs-Up, buddy".... You are a real Christian!

[MrBigbear6718]

mormonism is a poor excuse for Christianity. the doctrines of the mormon church degrade who God really is

[MrBigbear6718]

are there danites still in the mormon church?

[scottwins2]

I am sorry it W.

[scottwins2]

Lilburn L. Boggs. what a good man, poor soul. NO grass grows on his grave.

[josephsmithwashere]

"MORMON PRIESTHOODS KILL" They kill our Savior's Atonement, even now!

[scottwins2]

What about Hauns Mill? Mormon critics never mention it. Members of the militia entered the shop and found ten-year-old Sardius Smith hiding... William Reynolds put his musket against the boy's skull and blew off the top of his head. Reynolds later explained, "Nits will make lice, and if he had lived he would have become a Mormon." Thomas McBride surrendered his musket to militiaman Jacob Rogers, who then shot McBride and hacked his body apart with a corn knife. 22 killed innocently

[IExposeMormonism]

@scottwins2 The Fanchers were from Arkansas. It's doubtful anyone was from Missouri and regardless, non were involved in Hauns Mill. There were Arkansans behind the fancher train. Boggs traveled through Utah w/o being murdered. I've counted over 20 Mormons who traveled with the train. Go figure. And at least 3 apostate Mormons were killed at MMM

[rastapony]

Hey solarflare your a good man, I apologize for rude comments as well. Yep, I like reggae King Tubby is probably my fave. Peace brotther.

[rastapony]

I know plenty about Mormans. As well as Jews, Muslims, Scientologists, Buddhists, Krsnas......... Yea, I've done my homework. My flaw is that I love to argue with anyone. Let me guess, your a teenager?

[rastapony]

As to you O.G. remark I won't join the SS or KKK because I don't agree with them but mostly because they are violent. Sounds like you are too. Why else do want me to come out from behind my keyboard, to talk? Or maybe you would suggest to meet in a meadow?

Remember the Laferty brothers

[rastapony]

My pastor, ha ha! Not everyone is into organized religion. I'm Agnostic, YOU look it up. "hiding behind my keyboard"? Hardly just a couple of months ago I met with two Mormon elders at a meeting place on the CU campus in Boulder, CO. We had a respectful but heated conversation and parted ways on a handshake.

[rastapony]

Wow, your mad that a video portrays Mormons as violent. Yet you elude to kicking my ass after I "come out from behind your keyboard tough guy"!

[rastapony]

Do you believe in Blood Atonement?

[solarflare311]

nope,hey im guessing you do like reggae music,not to score points but i LOVE reggae music alot!!,your my brother i apologize for anything i said to you,i apologize for not showing the love,i respect you much now totally :)

[rastapony]

I'm not being violent. Just saying I hate them. No one gets all weepy if someone says they hate KKK. Seems to me the Morons were acting just like SS or KKK. Great comment to help bolster my opinion! Morons have to hide the fact that in their book black people are evil. Wow man you are a fountain of wisdom.

[solarflare311]

if you got that out of the book then obviously you havnt read,all you have seen is just spoonfeded garabage that your pastor told you,evil?? yeah that is telling you how much of ignoramus you are,wisdom,yeah it is not wise to tell someone what they believe,try getting the facts straight sparky!,anybody can say what you say over the internet tough guy,only because you have your keyboard to hide behind,so do tell me what facts have we hidden??,wow you are just so original for calling us morons

[solarflare311]

and frankly i dont give two shits if you hate us or what you think of us you know NOTHING about us,except for an anti-mormon published pamphlet,wow arent you something hahahaha!so despite what you think ,we love everybody reguardless of religion,creed,race,nationalit­y,disability,it seems like you dont acquire any of those,so just shut the freakin hell up really dude you have no idea what your talking about,doesnt matter you say it changes NOTHING!

[1MoNoMo]

Yeah! And your words here PROVE how much love you have to give, Right?

[rastapony]

I really should post something constructive but I'm feeling really moody and all I have to say is I hate Mormans. Don't feel so special LDS, your just one of my worst religious nightmares.

[solarflare311]

then go join the SS or the KKK if you hate a particular group of people so bad you fuckin cunt!

[1MoNoMo]

solarflop.

WOW! That "love" you profess just Gushes out of you doesn't it...?

[GodLovedJosephSmith]

Watch the videos under my favorites and you can learn the truth about the LDS.

this video is slander and untrue.

FAIRLDS . org

[hypnotstcollector]

GLJS: where is the slander in this video? Pretty thin ground for even a complaint of any unfairness. The more you read of it the more you will see.

[GodLovedJosephSmith]

The Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ and his Atonement which has made it possible for us to be able to return to our Heavenly Father. That knowledge is the most important information that we need to know on this earth. That is why the Book of Mormon is so important to us in the last days. The feeling discribed as burning of the bosom is biblical and its mans best attempt in describing with temporal thoughts and words something of God which is not of this world, they are real and factual.

[fincenMIB]

If that were really the case ENSIGN the church publication would not have published an apology would it? 150 years after, the church did acknowledge its role, SORRY!

It was by Richard E. Turley in the Sept. 2007 issue.

Do I have you to thank for losing the sound track???

[Ilegalplayer]

In May 1861, Brigham Young visited the site of the massacre. His actions on this trip demonstrated that he approved of the massacre...

"We visited the Mountain Meadow Monument put up at the burial place of 120 persons... A wooden Cross was placed on top with the following words: Vengence is mine and I will repay saith the Lord. President Young said it should be Vengence is mine and I have taken a little." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, May 25, 1861, vol. 5, p. 577)

[nauvoochristian]

Bring on your facts why don't do?

Instead it's always nothing more than adhominem, nothing more!

[sweetshark3]

there is no slander what happened is a fact

[sweetshark3]

Where is the slander I see nothing but fact in this video!!

[IExposeMormonism]

How does one slander a mormon on this issue? And where is the slander?

[beba0447]

I hope someone gave him a bit of his own medicine. He more then anyone needed atonement selfcentered hiding behind religion and I don`t mean Mr John D. Lee he was a scapegoat but Brigham Young, though Gods wrath he`ll never escape nor have no control over may our Lord have mercy on his soul.

[88formulafirebird]

i think next summer i will have to check this place out im a fancher myself

[Ilegalplayer]

After reading the 1857(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54)by Brigham Young as you see the post of it here it shows he was responsible for the Mountain Meadows Massacre he preached to kill a man and shed his blood that its ok if its for sins that Jesus Christ him self cant save a man from THE END

[Ilegalplayer]

I know,when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth,that you consider it is strong doctrine;but it is to save them,not to destroy them.... ...I know that there are transgressors,who,if they knew themselves,and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood,that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering...(1857 by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54)

[Ilegalplayer]

I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins...

"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days;and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit,but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man."1857 Journal of Discourses V.4 53-54

[endofus]

In April of 2006 the Mormon Church declared "This book was not a record of myth or an ancient history test or anything other than the true word of God." (Ensign, Apr 2006, p68) showing the LDS Corporation no longer views the Book Of Mormon as ancient text or history.

[omiolo]

The Blood Atonement Doctrine...nobody knows if that was for sure even a doctrine...except of course Warren Jeffs.

Based on Jeffs interpretation, Jeffs will be raped in prison repeatedly by those seeking an atonement for Jeffs.

[fincenMIB]

Come on FactandData I want to make you famous with your church, lets aire all the dirt, I haven't even started yet!

[solarflare311]

and yet you have any to come up with,oh yayyy! youtube makes me sound edumacated...lol! it must be true cause youtube says it....

[redwoodrebelgirl]

INTERESTING that even a careful examination of the history that the Church WILL ADMIT TO (nevermind the huge amount that they won't!) will turn out to render information that is NON-"faith-promoting"!

I did not know that about the polygamist attorneys being LDS! I still need to do more research!

[fincenMIB]

Send me your email by private message and I will treat you like Associated Press. I lived in Southern Utah 10 years. Snow was always in the newspaper. In charge of the South America Missionary Program then. Appointed to General Authority, wow! Taylor Thorton is a client now, which means I have the court records and worse, Taylor was 13 and coached by now Elder Snow.

He got $400,000. of FLDS blood money representing Vaughn Fischer in 1988, GOOGLE it! LDS Church 10% Right! 4 girls to Polygam

[fincenMIB]

Jannelle grew up to marry Winston Blackmore the FLDS Bishop in Canada, thanks to Elder Snow! Thank you Steve! The girls were not raised FLDS and Vaughn was a non blood step dad. Snow told the children the aunt was evil and would hurt them, F*cking coward!! 4 little girls sold for a few pieces of silver by an LDS Judas!

The money was so good, the FLDS were like a cash cow or ATM machine, that Elder Snow thought he would become thier attorney, he did! It was Snow & Nuffer!

[fincenMIB]

Nuffer was the best FLDS money could buy and oh yes he is LDS also! Nuffer was the Utah Bar Association President in 2000 & 2001, both Snow & Nuffer were former deputy County attorneys in washington county Utah. In other words when victims leaving the FLDS needed help from men who knew the law, THESE BOYS KNEW THE LAW, but for pieces of Silver they sold their knowledge to the abusers!

[fincenMIB]

When a claim against the Kingston's attorney was launched in 2000 for disciplinary actions, Nuffer squashed it, Kingston knew who Nuffer represented, but what a great secret! Those filing the complaint were never told.

A few years later former Governor Mike Leavitt made Nuffer a judge, because he was so fair and unbiased!

Nuffers former partner was Ron Thompson another piece of work, but not LDS. Thompson knew the law really well, he was the elected county attorney from 1973 to 1978.

[fincenMIB]

Then 3 years later in 1981, BAM the City Attorney and special council to Hildale the city of the FLDS incorporation where even the Judge Walter Steed was a polygamist.

Thompson ran the water district for southern utah. A close personal friend of secretary of the interior Bruce Babbit, but then look where Bruce came from, Northern Arizona.

Thompson was the 5th District Bar Association President.

[fincenMIB]

He knew all the local judges! So if you are a poygamous victiom and you go to the sheriff or DA, what do you suppose happened? Absolutely NOTHING! Thats why POLYGAMY was not addressed.

When the former DA Eric Ludlow a personal up close friend of Thompson was questioned about not prosecuting any polygamy victim cases in his career, he said no one ever brought a case to him.

[fincenMIB]

LIAR he signed for the letters I sent, but former Governor Mike Leavitt rewarded him and made him a judge just like David Nuffer. If you are keeping score the ex Governor and the former DA Eric Ludlow both devout LDS.

Because economic development in Southern utah was a huge issue, the power brokers decided to create a coalition and a committee of 3 to oversee everything.

[fincenMIB]

It was called SUPAC and in the begining it was Chaired by Mike Leavitt, co chaired by senator Orrin Hatch, with #3 none other than Ronald Williard Thompson, you remember him.

Orrin Hatch got his panties in a bunch at the March 2003 Town Hall meeting when he got caught defending the FLDS. He ordered evidence to be brought to him, we did and got a letter from his attorney saying we should give such to the Attorney General.

On July 27th 2003 his aide Jannine Holt remembered when Orrin played-

[fincenMIB]

the organ at the Leroy Johnson FLDS church meeting hall! Got to be special to even enter the FLDS church hall. Oops! Ms Holt shouldn't have been quoted in the newspaper!

But then in Rulon Jeffs chuch books he speaks of Brother Hatch. The FLDS church Patriarch Fred Jessop was a big customer of the Leavitt Insurance Group. Leavitt, oh yeah Dixie Leavitt, Governor Mikes Daddy!

Now how deep does any one want to go? BIG LDS Utah Officials ran interference for the FLDS for pieces of Silver!

[fincenMIB]

I may want to write a book! The FLDS existed with LDS help, if not official, by influential members, members who were sloppy! There is a fine and wonderful paper trail.

If Utah envoked the RICO Act who would they arrest as complicit? Got a clue why Utah will make excuses for the next hundred years? Because the guilty are those that protected the FLDS for money, paid clients at the expense of victims!

Someone better hope this video never gets featured! Its ORGANIZED CRIME, but Whom?

[redwoodrebelgirl]

YOU are trying to intimate that I consider murder committed BY Mormons to be worse than murder committed by others, and that I am less upset about Mormons murdered by others, than people of other faiths murdered by others. That is completely false!

[fincenMIB]

Redwood

Try;

Deborah Laake, writer, Secret Ceremonies: A Mormon Woman's Intimate Diary of Marriage and Beyond.

Don't worry about Fact-Boy, I get guys like him all the time and he can't handle truth or reality. The Fact is we have the FLDS problem, because the mainstream church blessed it via their influential attorneys, like Elder Steven Snow. Snow sent the 4 Thorton girls into a life of polygamy in 1988, then became the Attorney for Polygamist Colorado City from 1991 to 2001. FACT!

[fincenMIB]

Mike Otterson of the FLDS church is going to like FactandData so much he will get season tickets to the Utah JAZZ! The church loves it when its good standing members post arguement for the entire world to read.

They especially love me, because I work with the national press and direct journalist to my site. The clue should be, the latest 60 video clips from the Utah Polygamy Summit on May 8th 2008. What other state could offer a summit on polygamy and actually consider decriminalization? UT

[redwoodrebelgirl]

I have read "Secret Ceremonies"--so very disturbing!  I am reading "No Man Knows My History" now, and am shocked at the facts surrounding JS that I never learned in Primary!!(I know, shouldn't be shocked by anything LDS anymore...)...

[redwoodrebelgirl]

I recommend "Suddenly Strangers" by Brad and Chris Morin--a former BYU professor who set out to discredit a "rumor" that JS had married other mens' wives (FACT!)--and ended up leaving the LDS Church based SOLELY on the horrible things that he learned from literature owned, published,and/or sanitized by the Chruch ITSELF! At the time, he did not want to "contaminate" his search with literature from the "antis".

[factsanddata]

This goes back to my original statement that 'selective mourning' (for those killed by mormons vs. those killed by protestants or catholics) ads up to an argument that doesn't make sense. To sit here and say you feel sorry for those the mormons killed, vs. not as sorry for those who killed the mormons, means that you are little better than the perpetrators of this crime you claim to detest. All of you over-emotional anti-mormon radicals need to take a hard look in the mirror.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

This doesn't make any sense--nor honestly reflect my statements. I have said that I feel sadness and disgust for the murder of ANY INNOCENT PEOPLE--Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Buddhist...and for the murder of innocents BY ANYONE--Mormon, Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Buddhist, etc.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

factsanddata:...

And I absolutely disagree with you that history points to MMM being organized and carried out exclusively at the local level--it points pretty clearly to probable knowledge (if not order by ) Brigham Young, AT WORST--at BEST a cover -up by Brigham Young (and the Church for a century afterward). You can say otherwise over and over until your face turns blue--but that still will not make it true!

[fincenMIB]

Shannon Novak had the remains almost 72 hours before Mike Leavitt ordered them back in the ground. Her conclusion that included photographs were that women and children were shot will ball and muscot. The story of the indians was a fabrication supported by the church officially until last year. Ensign Magazine offered a quasi apology last Fall, 150 years after.

John D Lee's execution 20 years later as the only perpetrator is the bigger crime! 50 to 100 men were allowed free and revered now!

[fincenMIB]

I lived in Hurricane, Cedar City was less than a n hour away. Ancestors in Cedar City were revered as great men and yet 100 or so of them committed mass murder, that included children and women. The key was always that those under 8 years old were spared!

The mormon age of accountability was 8 years old. The indians wouldn't have stop killing at the tender age of 8!

The booty or loot stolen was the next issue that demostrated simple greed, after all the dead no longer needed it.

[fincenMIB]

You want to get sick read the U.S. government report;

SPECIAL REPORT OF THE MOUNTAIN MEADOW MASSACRE BY J. H. CARLETON, BREVET MAJOR; UNITED STATES ARMY, CAPTAIN, FIRST DRAGOONS.

Camp at Mountain Meadows,

Utah Territory, May 25th, 1859

Major: When I left Los Angeles, the 23rd ultimo, General Clarke, commanding the Department of California, directed me to bury the bones of the victims of that terrible massacre which took place on this ground in September, 1857.

[fincenMIB]

The fact of this massacre of (in my opinion) at least 120 men, women and children, who were on their way from the State of Arkansas to California, has long been well known. I have endeavored to learn the circumstances attending it, and have the honor to submit the following as the result of my inquiries on this point:

Dr. Brewer, United States Army, whom I met with Captain Campbell's command on the Santa Clara River on the 15th inst.,

[fincenMIB]

informed me that as he was going up the Platte River on the 11th of June, 1857, he passed a train of emigrants near O'Fallons Bluffs. The train was called "Perkin's Train," a man named Perkins, who had previously been to California, having charge of it as a conductor; that he afterwards saw the train frequently; the last time he saw it, it was at Ash Hollow on the North Fork of the Platte.

The Doctor says the train consisted of, say, 40 wagons;

[fincenMIB]

there were a few tents besides, which the emigrants used in addition to these wagons when they encamped. There seemed to be about 40 heads of families, many women, some unmarried, and many children. A doctor accompanied them. The train seemed to consist of respectable people, well to do in the world. They were well dressed, were quiet, orderly, genteel; had fine stock; had three carriages along, and other evidences which went to show that this was one of the finest trains that had been seen to -

[fincenMIB]

cross the plains. It was so remarked upon by the officers who were with the doctor at that time. From reports afterwards received, and comparing the dates with the probable rate of travel, he believed this was the identical train which was destroyed at Mountain Meadows.

THEY REASONED AS WARREN JEFFS REASONS TODAY!

Read the whole report to know the character of men who were the lowest of cowards who walked the earth. They took possessions and left the bodies of children scattered.

[factsanddata]

Like I said before redwood... all this emotional stuff doesn't sit well with me... I'm into facts and data... and there are no facts or data to support your claim that it was done at higher levels. If there are.. I'd be more than happy to read it. and the fact that you have an ax to grind with the mormons doesn't make your case sound any more rational.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

I had some pretty awful experiences, and found out some pretty awful things about the Church--my problems with the Church come from an intimate and detailed knowledge and personal experience with being Mormon, attending BYU, and living in Utah--not just some philosophical or random distate for Mormonism. I think that my criticism holds alot of weight because I KNOW FIRSTHAND what I am talking about!

[factsanddata]

There's nothing to agree or disagree about... there's only the facts, and you have shown none to support your argument. In addition, the fact that you have an ax to grind with your former church makes your statements all the less reliable as it shows bias. You're going to have a difficult time proving your point because so many of the historical records are filled with bias commentary either one way or the other.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

There is plenty to disagree about--as people interpret facts differently (as witnessed by the very fact that we are having this argument!!!).

I think that the fact that I have "an axe to grind" with the religion that I was raised in and spent over twenty years in is compelling in it's own right.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

...and yes, I am most interested in the Mormons because I gave over twenty years of my life and money (and my thoughts and control, and tears)to the LDS Church. It is quite personal with me--that they be held accountable for at least SOME of what I believe to be large amounts of wrong-doing and deception and exploitation. Yes, it is personal to me, and so, yes, I am most interested in the sins of the LDS Church--"the one true Church led by a true prophet of God"!

[solarflare311]

your a spaz!

[redwoodrebelgirl]

And YOU are calling me kindergarden playground names because you don't like my perspective.

[solarflare311]

nope mormons had nothing to do with ordering this,you brainwashed hippie girl

[redwoodrebelgirl]

You don't like what I say, and disagree with me. But I HAVE read the facts, and formed a very educated and informed opinion about this. One that you would likely reach if you did similar research. Please stop the childish name calling and insinuations about me--you know NOTHING about me except that you don't like my opinions. You are embarrassing yourself, and your religion, and it is painful to watch.

[solarflare311]

too painful to watch yeah you have everything but the facts i can GUARENTEE you that!,very educated?? really? i am laughing my ass off at you at this,i will stop the name calling when you have any facts in front of you deal? i call a spade when i see one,i have only embarrassed you,because of your uninformed and ignorant and uneducated you are,tells me alot how ignorant you are thats real truth if anything

[redwoodrebelgirl]

Well done, fincenMIB, well done.

Now I just wish that I could stop crying.

The terror! The sufferring! Those poor children raised in the homes of the people that they WATCHED kill their parents, and siblings and families, and friends...

Please tell me the source for the music/spoken word (I am guessing some Shakespeare tragedy?)--it was so powerfully appropriate.

[Trandos21]

Wow. A bunch of people go into Utah which is under marshal law and threaten to come back with a militia to slaughter a settlement because they wouldn't trade. They felt the need to protect themselves. The LDS are the only religion to be kicked out of the organized U.S. while being raped and murdered on their way out. A few angery people went with a band of indians and kept their future. It was murder and uncommon for mormons. Dislike me if you want. But disclose the whole history and don't lie.

[fincenMIB]

You are welcome to offer your version here. So you are saying it was justified to Murder 126 imigrants unrelated to those from Missouri that killed Joe Smith? Children from 8 years old up? Hahns Mill was another state and these people had nothing to do with that.

If you are truly LDS, you are not doing the mainstream church any favors, in justifying mass murder, even though it was 1857.

So state the facts as you believe them. I have Shannon Novak's & the report to congress!

Post away!

[icecub20]

Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were a bunch of fucking idiots and the people who believe that they were prophets or that god appear to them and said that in a family the man is god and the woman is a slava and a baby machine thats a bunch crok shit

[xanxolin]

MOrmons, have you ever read what B.Young thought about "Blood Atonement"? Google this out: "blood atonement and the early mormon church"

You should read "The Journal of Discourses" as well, there is a web site. I'm not suggesting you read "literature against the teachings of the church". just read the "teachings" of your prophets and general authorities.

[nauvoochristian]

My heart is still hurting at this moment for I watched as the Fancher wagon came down the hill and pulled at Mountain Meadows on September 11, 2007. One could almost hear the cry from those that were murdered by the Mormon Brethen in 1857. To the Mormon Church I say "Let these people go!" If the Mormon Church wants to right this horrible wrong, then release Mountain Meadows to Federal Stewardship!

[fincenMIB]

Amen!

[factsanddata]

How would releasing land to the government right a wrong? Just what does it have to do with anything? will it bring back the people? will it heal hearts? will it do anything of value?

I think not. The mormons know they did wrong and we know that those who perpetrated this crime pay for it.... so who cares?

[factsanddata]

Hey nauvoochristian... does your heart hurt for all of the lynchings and cross burnings by the baptist/evangelical Ku Klux Clan members in the 1900's? Look up Christian Terrorism in wikipedia.... christians are no different from the mormons.

[nauvoochristian]

How is it possible for you to make such a statement about how I feel about the deaths of any innocent people group. You don't me!

Your statement also shows you know nothing about Mormonism neither, Mormons are not christians. They have another Jesus, who is Satans literal brother, that is NOT christian.

[shelter661]

Your absolutly right but at the same time you cant dismiss the Killings of the Mormon Church as well.

[factsanddata]

Yeah... the mormons did their wrong. I just wanted to point out that no relgion is without skeletons.

Look at the catholics and the inquisition, or King Olav (the Holy) from Norway... converting non-believers by the sword.

The truth is, there's plenty to go around.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

hey factsanddata...

I do not know whether nauvoochristian mourns for the killings perpetrated by the Baptists/Evangelicals/KKK--but I do. And I mourn for those killed by all other religions,too.

And I still hold the Mormon Church accountable for this butchery, and for the century of cover-up.

Are you REALLY trying to suggest that if the Baptists/Evangelics/KKK (or any other hatemongering extremists) slaughter(ed) others, that it somehow made it OK for the Mormons to do it, too?!?!?!?

[factsanddata]

redwood... I was only stating a fact and supporting it with data.. without some fanatical/emotional element.

The person I responded to was making a statement that I responded to in context. I happen to agree with you that the Mountain Meadows incident was horrible. The facts show.. unlike the inquisition, the mormon church had nothing to do with it other than that all the participants were mormon. So, no... I see no justification for what those people did.

[redwoodrebelgirl]

Good, I'm glad that you do not support killing of innocent people under any auspices!

I'm, sorry, but I think that the facts are pretty conclusive that MMM was known about at, if not explicitly ordered by, the highest levels of the Church--Brigham Young. Even Mormon writer Jaunita Brooks came to that conclusion privately, but would not publish it(fear of Blood Atonement perhaps???)

[factsanddata]

well redwood... historical facts can sometimes be tricky, but the facts here are very conclusive that it was local leadership that ordered the attack.

Have you ever looked into the mobs at haun's mill? Do you morn for all those innocent people that were killed by the hands of vicious mobs... that were often led by local ministers? Do you morn for them as well and hold their churches accountable, or does your worry and concern only focus on the wrong doing of mormons?

[redwoodrebelgirl]

Of course I heard about Haun's Mill--I was raised LDS. Of course I think that it was a horrible thing. I think also that LDS are quick to play the "persecution" card every time they are asked to be accountable for MMM. If one does some diggging one will see that "gentiles" had good reason to be fearful and feel "persecuted" by Mormons before many of the violent--and awful--lashing out that happened against Mormons. Two wrongs never make a right, and Christ said "turn the other cheek".