I think that the purpose of GS/E-Prime is to promote better (and less hostile) communication more so than to elucidate a more accurate philosophy of some sort. I do agree that the map is the territory in a sense.
hello. emm, the E-prime principle seems objective in a lot of examples (including the onesyou mentioned). However, there are scientific statements that do not imply any sort of relativity, like colors. would it be appropriate to say that the color black seems black?or red seems red to me?I have a red book..well let's take the example of black book (because black doesn't have values when it's dark).
this book is black(objective) the book seems black (awkward) wht does E-prime say about it? thanks
@mlaithy In fact the colours are everything but they colour they appear to be they just reflect that certain spectrum to your eye but nothing black is black
@MegaMindgames choosing the color black wasn't arbitrary. Black doesn't have values (u can't talk about lighgt black and dark black). it's even not a color (it's the absence of colors) long story! but if eprime demonstrates objectivity in many fields and statements, it doen't necesserily go for perfection, i think
I think the point of something like E-prime is to remind the user that s/he (as the real hidden subject) is not separate from his/her action, and that those actions may have some kind of reflective/reflexive bias. But this is what we try to do when we speak of the unconscious--trying to get the observer to become more aware that s/he is part of of his/her own observations, using the objective/empirical reality of dreams, for ex., as a compass, though dreams are usually seen as anything but.
on the psycho-analytic side of the "The map IS NOT the territory", we can see that the negation of an object may or can carry more weight or hold more meaning than the object itself. IS may mean one thing. IS NOT can mean many alternate things....maybe that adds to the dialog. Semantics, psychology, and semiotics are interesting. I claim mostly ignorance, but poke at these areas, like a child with s stick, you could say =P
The magnified intentionally provocative example (I use internally):
----------------
IS: aggressive, hostile, dominating, defensive, ignorant, superior.
----------------
A counter exaggerated extreme: respectful external observation, clarity of one's own lack of knowledge, honoring an other party's possibly alternate experience.
----------------
I would argue for respect of "map and man", which (real or no) we cling to for survival.
When E-prime becomes intutionalized, as Carroll Quigley put it, it becomes detrimental to the speaker and detracts from what they are trying to say. Originally it is used as an insturment which helps the speaker think critically, think openly, and become a better speaker. The Evolution of Civlizations is a great book by Carroll Quigley and encourage all who read this to better understand what I'm saying.
I'm not certain of whether this is entirely relevent, but it seems to me that the statement, "He is stupid," is problematic for two reasons: 1.) because of its seeming to suggest stupid as exclusively being his identity (if he is stupid - and is not just instead, for instance - a stupid person, then how could she - also - be stupid?), -
- and 2.) because of its also seeming to suggest stupid as being the sole aspect of which his entire identity is composed (if what he is is stupid, then how could he also BE awake, also be tall, also be human, etc.- unless all of those other aspects are parts of stupidity?).
so I'm new to General Semantics, but I need a crash course in it. what would you say is a good way to get the basics down properly? What books and in what order?
Also, if curious, I made this video on my other channel, that explains Levels of Abstraction. Might be useful for people who need an animation explaining it practically :)
I like E-Prime because it serves as a simple tool to discipline myself not to state my opinions as facts. I do a lot of arguing (a.k.a. "debating") on political forums, and ever since I started posting in E-Prime I've argued myself into far fewer corners. Moreover, my opponents seem to have become frustrated and less eager to spar with me now that I don't play as fast-and-loose with my statements as they do. E-Prime seems to have elevated me slightly above the fray and given me a bit of an edge.
Sincere apologies for the late response (life threw me a curve-ball), and thanks for doing the vid. I don't think you've critiqued E-P; you've conceded its usefulness as an exercise, and pointed your critique at E-P 'cultists.' Not only do I not fit that description -- I've never even heard of them. I fit the description you agreed with: I find E-P interesting and enlightening -- full stop. You diverged at the end, but I enjoyed it (the map/territory bit; I'd call maps a reflection, like words).
I guess maybe I should have made a video instead of typing all over your page, anyways thanks for the video it stirred up my mind a little bit. But I'm just getting warmed up, so maybe a video follow up might occur at some time in the future, thanks for your posted video.
Also what we call a "map" relates to the territory and that concepts relation to ourselves. Maybe in some sense the information already existed about the "map" before the territory could ever be seen? That seems to go into Plato's concepts of ideal or absolute things, like a perfect chair,etc. That seems to revert to Aristotelian thinking possibly? Maybe "The Self-Aware Universe"...delves further into this line of thinking putting information as prior to light/matter.
One might say words cannot encapsulate every moment nor most moments in space time. Take ohm's law....one can say it works most of the time to in a sense form a reliable prediction, but one cannot say it will always work as such given as time or place can create different results, but for the moment it works. Most maps and most mathematical concepts seem destined to become replaced, I think he meant that as time moves on the territory changes and so the maps have to change.
I thought Korzybski used the term "is" precisely for the effect he claimed it caused. Mostly to provoke the reader to substitute and replace it themselves, in other words he was basically acting rather humorously. I get the joke, those that undersand it as a tool to gain a different perspective understand the intent. To remove "is" from what we write and say would seem very hard to do 100% of the time. Bohm goes on to explain how fragmentation of experience seems like the great problem today.
Language doesn't make experience possible, in fact experience makes language possible. Experience maybe more or less useful to talking, if one has none one cannot talk much about anything, if one has much one can talk but must feel inclined to NOT talk. Try Buckminster Fullers experiment, try to not talk for an entire year, shut your mind off and you will see the experience of language in a very different way than as a facilitator of experience, study great poetry and one can understand more .
I wouldn't call it a belief, when referring to e-prime, I would refer to it as a theory about communication and time binding. I also wouldn't say "western" language, you might best say the form of language known as English. I think it really can get used for greater effect on perception, when precisely using it for terms like, "It is raining." To me it sounds better as "it seems to have started raining", and just makes more sense from a point of explaining a perspective.
Korzybski has much of value, and you make many good points as well.
To be honest, I've found the works of S. I. Hayakawa, such as "Language in Thought and Action," more accessible. Examples such as Sunset 1, Sunset 2, Sunset 3, etc.
The use of "is," reminds me of Bill Clinton's "It depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is." ^_^
I wonder if the problem of "the word is not the thing, where 'thing' is a word," is to recognize an epistemological truth, that we are bound to know only what is linguistic.
So, if the "real world" can exist without human language, "the word" truly is not "the thing," but, for the reason you point out, such statements become a kind of connotative poetry. If that's true, I don't know what it means for Korzybski, but his seem insightful thoughts to entertain, nevertheless.
stop the critique, more reading won't make you any wiser, in fact it will make you more confused. In the end, it is still thoughts and logic on which you base your conclusions. It is not thoughts that will connect you to the truth; it is experience! That which enters you nervous system at this moment is your only handle on the truth. Everything else is abstractions, or gross generalizations of the truth; so stop the crazy talk man
One problem is, that we only take in a very limited amount of experience, which is also subjective and fallible. Empiricism tries to get around this through painstaking observation, and peer review, but as soon as you are trying to compare two people's experiences, you run in to the problem of language.
I think that general semantics has got to be the foundation of scientific method, because it is a more honest way to express experience.
Interesting stuff. I have been watching your posts for a while now Professoranton and I find them very interesting. I was wondering how Wittgenstein (esp. late Wittgenstein) would regard this theory of 'Eprime' language use. It seems to me similar to the 'language-games' used to do away with the multitude of grammar problems that have plagued philosophers in history. Is there any account of their interaction?
There are no correspondences between them that I know of. And, for the record, Korzybski himself, spoke against Eprime. He thought that it was useful as an exercise but that Western languages are subject-object languages and the problems will therefore creep in in other ways. Language awareness and attentiveness to our semantic reactions, those seem to be key.
Thanks for adding my video as a response to this one...I can't get the map/territory video I've been working on to cohere....So I did this as a kind of thought experiment place holder...
The reason this stuff is so intriguing is that it's not just more of the same facile stuff IMHO.
Great discussion. I think the main premises in G.S still hold in terms of their usefulness. G.S underpins much of the work of Albert Ellis who spanned the present most effective model of psychotherapy, CBT. Labelling, non-identification, either-or-thinking etc., are indispensible tools in contemporary counselling. NLP is another field that seems to have been built on the map/territory distinction through the work of linguistic John Grinder in its early days.
I agree but the roots of Ellis and Rational Therapies can be found back in the Stoics, Epictetus in particular. Much of the stoic system resonates with GS.
I'm in the process of making a video that touches on this...Half of my videos never see the light of day, because I realize after all the work that they were valuable as a thought exercise, but they aren't good enough to post here...
This if one of the most interesting videos I've watched in a while. Conferencereport's latest video on his other channel is about data, information, knowledge and wisdom and has direct implications for this.
The reflexive reality of the map being part of the territory...EXACTLY -- Language is organic!!! What we create in language immediately becomes a part of the reflexive map of the territory of reality which itself becomes a part of the new territory...Maybe this is as much the undiscovered country as death is.
That last part is really silly and pompous, but since I think it's about SOMETHING I can't get my head around yet. I'm going to leave it in the spirit of blind blindfolded men & elephants
I realize after rereading my second comment, that it could be misunderstood as referring to the video and not my own inane comment...so I thought I would clarify...It was self-referential ONLY!
I'm quickly falling into unintentional self-parody...I think it comes from some sort of internal almost phobic self-censorship which YouTube can create if you let it, and I have obviously let it.
Conferencereport's other channel? Please provide name. Thanks.
(why didn't you just refer to it in the first place?)
re Eprime
'It's political correctness gone mad!'
When I first heard about Eprime, it brought to mind the way some Zen masters would often not communicate with words at all. (they may have even refuted that it was communication)
Conferencereport's other channel is poeticsofthought...He has some great, very under-viewed videos there.
About Eprime...I think it's interesting to look at the linguistic scaffolding that underlies it. But it's applications seem very forced to me. So I agree...
ou read my mind, good vid. The point you bring up at 5:10 is important I think. Rather than thinking of it in terms of illusionary and real it seems more fitting to say something like, our experience is limited and to realise the "otherness" of the so called real. The illusion/real seems to suggest a true/false situation, which I think is missing the point here.
I think this is the value of scriptures such as the Diamond Sutra. They are oriented toward bringing the reader out of dualistic language games. Parmenides poem On Nature does this too, imo. Robert Anton Wilson's book Quantum Psychology has some interesting exercises in Eprime.
the english language, understood properly, will suffice.
natmanprime 2 weeks ago
I think that the purpose of GS/E-Prime is to promote better (and less hostile) communication more so than to elucidate a more accurate philosophy of some sort. I do agree that the map is the territory in a sense.
discordian420 2 weeks ago
Have students of e~prime ever come up with the basis for another language altogether?
summondadrummin 3 weeks ago
the territory is more then the map? maybe?
random5241 2 months ago
Don't you mean to say.... "e-prime appears cult-ish to me" :D
craigrgill 4 months ago
@craigrgill :)
Professoranton 4 months ago
hello. emm, the E-prime principle seems objective in a lot of examples (including the onesyou mentioned). However, there are scientific statements that do not imply any sort of relativity, like colors. would it be appropriate to say that the color black seems black?or red seems red to me?I have a red book..well let's take the example of black book (because black doesn't have values when it's dark).
this book is black(objective) the book seems black (awkward) wht does E-prime say about it? thanks
mlaithy 5 months ago
@mlaithy In fact the colours are everything but they colour they appear to be they just reflect that certain spectrum to your eye but nothing black is black
MegaMindgames 4 weeks ago
@MegaMindgames choosing the color black wasn't arbitrary. Black doesn't have values (u can't talk about lighgt black and dark black). it's even not a color (it's the absence of colors) long story! but if eprime demonstrates objectivity in many fields and statements, it doen't necesserily go for perfection, i think
mlaithy 4 weeks ago
I think the point of something like E-prime is to remind the user that s/he (as the real hidden subject) is not separate from his/her action, and that those actions may have some kind of reflective/reflexive bias. But this is what we try to do when we speak of the unconscious--trying to get the observer to become more aware that s/he is part of of his/her own observations, using the objective/empirical reality of dreams, for ex., as a compass, though dreams are usually seen as anything but.
alienbaroque 6 months ago
sorry. 1 more `
re: Copula - the less definitive to become, to get, to feel, and to seem are not as inherently "superior" in conveyance or conversation.
waterspindle 6 months ago
on the psycho-analytic side of the "The map IS NOT the territory", we can see that the negation of an object may or can carry more weight or hold more meaning than the object itself. IS may mean one thing. IS NOT can mean many alternate things....maybe that adds to the dialog. Semantics, psychology, and semiotics are interesting. I claim mostly ignorance, but poke at these areas, like a child with s stick, you could say =P
waterspindle 6 months ago
@ 4:25 "That sound 'is' loud". "That sound seems loud (to me)".
The magnified intentionally provocative example (I use internally):
----------------
IS: aggressive, hostile, dominating, defensive, ignorant, superior.
----------------
A counter exaggerated extreme: respectful external observation, clarity of one's own lack of knowledge, honoring an other party's possibly alternate experience.
----------------
I would argue for respect of "map and man", which (real or no) we cling to for survival.
waterspindle 6 months ago
When E-prime becomes intutionalized, as Carroll Quigley put it, it becomes detrimental to the speaker and detracts from what they are trying to say. Originally it is used as an insturment which helps the speaker think critically, think openly, and become a better speaker. The Evolution of Civlizations is a great book by Carroll Quigley and encourage all who read this to better understand what I'm saying.
Zachdudeio2 7 months ago
I'm not certain of whether this is entirely relevent, but it seems to me that the statement, "He is stupid," is problematic for two reasons: 1.) because of its seeming to suggest stupid as exclusively being his identity (if he is stupid - and is not just instead, for instance - a stupid person, then how could she - also - be stupid?), -
MENCADO 10 months ago
- and 2.) because of its also seeming to suggest stupid as being the sole aspect of which his entire identity is composed (if what he is is stupid, then how could he also BE awake, also be tall, also be human, etc.- unless all of those other aspects are parts of stupidity?).
MENCADO 10 months ago
so I'm new to General Semantics, but I need a crash course in it. what would you say is a good way to get the basics down properly? What books and in what order?
Also, if curious, I made this video on my other channel, that explains Levels of Abstraction. Might be useful for people who need an animation explaining it practically :)
firuinthehouse 1 year ago
@firuinthehouse I would say to get the Kenneth Johnson booklet General Semantics: An outline survey.
Professoranton 1 year ago
I like E-Prime because it serves as a simple tool to discipline myself not to state my opinions as facts. I do a lot of arguing (a.k.a. "debating") on political forums, and ever since I started posting in E-Prime I've argued myself into far fewer corners. Moreover, my opponents seem to have become frustrated and less eager to spar with me now that I don't play as fast-and-loose with my statements as they do. E-Prime seems to have elevated me slightly above the fray and given me a bit of an edge.
AntiWoo 1 year ago
@AntiWoo Those seems fair to me.
Professoranton 1 year ago
Sincere apologies for the late response (life threw me a curve-ball), and thanks for doing the vid. I don't think you've critiqued E-P; you've conceded its usefulness as an exercise, and pointed your critique at E-P 'cultists.' Not only do I not fit that description -- I've never even heard of them. I fit the description you agreed with: I find E-P interesting and enlightening -- full stop. You diverged at the end, but I enjoyed it (the map/territory bit; I'd call maps a reflection, like words).
DummyMagnet 1 year ago
I guess maybe I should have made a video instead of typing all over your page, anyways thanks for the video it stirred up my mind a little bit. But I'm just getting warmed up, so maybe a video follow up might occur at some time in the future, thanks for your posted video.
econogate 1 year ago
Also what we call a "map" relates to the territory and that concepts relation to ourselves. Maybe in some sense the information already existed about the "map" before the territory could ever be seen? That seems to go into Plato's concepts of ideal or absolute things, like a perfect chair,etc. That seems to revert to Aristotelian thinking possibly? Maybe "The Self-Aware Universe"...delves further into this line of thinking putting information as prior to light/matter.
econogate 1 year ago
One might say words cannot encapsulate every moment nor most moments in space time. Take ohm's law....one can say it works most of the time to in a sense form a reliable prediction, but one cannot say it will always work as such given as time or place can create different results, but for the moment it works. Most maps and most mathematical concepts seem destined to become replaced, I think he meant that as time moves on the territory changes and so the maps have to change.
econogate 1 year ago
I thought Korzybski used the term "is" precisely for the effect he claimed it caused. Mostly to provoke the reader to substitute and replace it themselves, in other words he was basically acting rather humorously. I get the joke, those that undersand it as a tool to gain a different perspective understand the intent. To remove "is" from what we write and say would seem very hard to do 100% of the time. Bohm goes on to explain how fragmentation of experience seems like the great problem today.
econogate 1 year ago
Language doesn't make experience possible, in fact experience makes language possible. Experience maybe more or less useful to talking, if one has none one cannot talk much about anything, if one has much one can talk but must feel inclined to NOT talk. Try Buckminster Fullers experiment, try to not talk for an entire year, shut your mind off and you will see the experience of language in a very different way than as a facilitator of experience, study great poetry and one can understand more .
econogate 1 year ago
I wouldn't call it a belief, when referring to e-prime, I would refer to it as a theory about communication and time binding. I also wouldn't say "western" language, you might best say the form of language known as English. I think it really can get used for greater effect on perception, when precisely using it for terms like, "It is raining." To me it sounds better as "it seems to have started raining", and just makes more sense from a point of explaining a perspective.
econogate 1 year ago
Good, broad strokes.
jguterman 1 year ago
Korzybski has much of value, and you make many good points as well.
To be honest, I've found the works of S. I. Hayakawa, such as "Language in Thought and Action," more accessible. Examples such as Sunset 1, Sunset 2, Sunset 3, etc.
The use of "is," reminds me of Bill Clinton's "It depends on what your definition of the word 'is' is." ^_^
StevenErnest 1 year ago
I wonder if the problem of "the word is not the thing, where 'thing' is a word," is to recognize an epistemological truth, that we are bound to know only what is linguistic.
So, if the "real world" can exist without human language, "the word" truly is not "the thing," but, for the reason you point out, such statements become a kind of connotative poetry. If that's true, I don't know what it means for Korzybski, but his seem insightful thoughts to entertain, nevertheless.
jericomovie 1 year ago
stop the critique, more reading won't make you any wiser, in fact it will make you more confused. In the end, it is still thoughts and logic on which you base your conclusions. It is not thoughts that will connect you to the truth; it is experience! That which enters you nervous system at this moment is your only handle on the truth. Everything else is abstractions, or gross generalizations of the truth; so stop the crazy talk man
ken107 1 year ago
@ken107
One problem is, that we only take in a very limited amount of experience, which is also subjective and fallible. Empiricism tries to get around this through painstaking observation, and peer review, but as soon as you are trying to compare two people's experiences, you run in to the problem of language.
I think that general semantics has got to be the foundation of scientific method, because it is a more honest way to express experience.
Jcolinsol 1 year ago
Considering the grammatical difference of are/is: The way things are, is not the way one thing is.
MortenChristianGroth 1 year ago
Damn. Nice critique.
patrickjmoran 2 years ago
Thanks
Professoranton 2 years ago
Brilliant clip.
I would be interested in what a conversation between Korzybski and Mortimer Adler would be like.
dezzoda 2 years ago
Thanks. Good suggestion too. I'll have to think about it.
Professoranton 2 years ago
At first I thought this video was going to be on math. Oh well 5 stars, even though I don't understand anything you said.
TheHeather1985 2 years ago
What is your opinion of Theodor W Adorno?
Mjhavok 2 years ago
Don't know his work well enough.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Interesting stuff. I have been watching your posts for a while now Professoranton and I find them very interesting. I was wondering how Wittgenstein (esp. late Wittgenstein) would regard this theory of 'Eprime' language use. It seems to me similar to the 'language-games' used to do away with the multitude of grammar problems that have plagued philosophers in history. Is there any account of their interaction?
Thanks.
dlbrittain 2 years ago
There are no correspondences between them that I know of. And, for the record, Korzybski himself, spoke against Eprime. He thought that it was useful as an exercise but that Western languages are subject-object languages and the problems will therefore creep in in other ways. Language awareness and attentiveness to our semantic reactions, those seem to be key.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Thanks for adding my video as a response to this one...I can't get the map/territory video I've been working on to cohere....So I did this as a kind of thought experiment place holder...
The reason this stuff is so intriguing is that it's not just more of the same facile stuff IMHO.
2bsirius 2 years ago
Thanks so much.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Great discussion. I think the main premises in G.S still hold in terms of their usefulness. G.S underpins much of the work of Albert Ellis who spanned the present most effective model of psychotherapy, CBT. Labelling, non-identification, either-or-thinking etc., are indispensible tools in contemporary counselling. NLP is another field that seems to have been built on the map/territory distinction through the work of linguistic John Grinder in its early days.
alzico 2 years ago
I agree but the roots of Ellis and Rational Therapies can be found back in the Stoics, Epictetus in particular. Much of the stoic system resonates with GS.
Thanks
Professoranton 2 years ago
I think the transcultural or global similarity of the human body entitles us to speak in assertions, "propositions"
almafarag 2 years ago
There is indeed something to that logic, especially if we also agree that humans can learn of others' views.
Professoranton 2 years ago
I'm in the process of making a video that touches on this...Half of my videos never see the light of day, because I realize after all the work that they were valuable as a thought exercise, but they aren't good enough to post here...
This if one of the most interesting videos I've watched in a while. Conferencereport's latest video on his other channel is about data, information, knowledge and wisdom and has direct implications for this.
2bsirius 2 years ago
The reflexive reality of the map being part of the territory...EXACTLY -- Language is organic!!! What we create in language immediately becomes a part of the reflexive map of the territory of reality which itself becomes a part of the new territory...Maybe this is as much the undiscovered country as death is.
That last part is really silly and pompous, but since I think it's about SOMETHING I can't get my head around yet. I'm going to leave it in the spirit of blind blindfolded men & elephants
2bsirius 2 years ago
I realize after rereading my second comment, that it could be misunderstood as referring to the video and not my own inane comment...so I thought I would clarify...It was self-referential ONLY!
I'm quickly falling into unintentional self-parody...I think it comes from some sort of internal almost phobic self-censorship which YouTube can create if you let it, and I have obviously let it.
¦;¬)
2bsirius 2 years ago
Conferencereport's other channel? Please provide name. Thanks.
(why didn't you just refer to it in the first place?)
re Eprime
'It's political correctness gone mad!'
When I first heard about Eprime, it brought to mind the way some Zen masters would often not communicate with words at all. (they may have even refuted that it was communication)
¿?
the power of words
the blessing & the curse
TWITfromURANUS 2 years ago
@TWITfromURANUS
Conferencereport's other channel is poeticsofthought...He has some great, very under-viewed videos there.
About Eprime...I think it's interesting to look at the linguistic scaffolding that underlies it. But it's applications seem very forced to me. So I agree...
¿?
Yup!
2bsirius 2 years ago
right thinking naturally precipitates its own semantic value
cardellacole2 2 years ago
Good crit of eprime. I particularly liked the clarity of the 'postmodernism/map phenomenology/territory' relation. Thanks Corey.
conferencereport 2 years ago
Thanks Fred,
I really dug your one on naming parts. I will have to respond in some way
Professoranton 2 years ago
Sometimes even the territory isn't the territory.
silversoul7 2 years ago
ou read my mind, good vid. The point you bring up at 5:10 is important I think. Rather than thinking of it in terms of illusionary and real it seems more fitting to say something like, our experience is limited and to realise the "otherness" of the so called real. The illusion/real seems to suggest a true/false situation, which I think is missing the point here.
blaclive 2 years ago
I think this is the value of scriptures such as the Diamond Sutra. They are oriented toward bringing the reader out of dualistic language games. Parmenides poem On Nature does this too, imo. Robert Anton Wilson's book Quantum Psychology has some interesting exercises in Eprime.
Barklord 2 years ago
Good one. The word is the thing because without the word there is no separation. You need words to slice and dice reality up into territories
ORz42 2 years ago 2
Is this about bumperstickers?
theosophers 2 years ago
it's about thumbs
ThePointlessPoint 2 years ago