Friedman vs. Donahue

[TomMinderson]

The best countries are a good MIX of capitalism and socialism. The extremes suck.

[20YrBillionaire]

@TomMinderson Last time i checked there were very few examples of extremely capitalistic societies. The problem is many countries want to mix capitalism with totalitarianism, which ends in fascism.

[javaman1891]

Friedman was a bad economist, and a bad man.

[stealthgerm]

what of places with no taxes or low taxes are any of them in the top ten nations as far as standard of living?

[Boeing727223]

Phil got his rear end handed to him on a silver platter.

[AtlasShruggery]

Milton Friedman: Friend and economic advisor to murderous dictators the world over.

Fortunayely, these days, Friedman's work has largely been discredited and he's been reduced to a mere footnote to Keynes.

[T0wer69]

As the government spends more money and takes away our freedom, it's great to see our economy flourishing so well right now.

[KingDingaLing090]

Yeah right Atlas Scrubbery.

Fortunately global warming, Al Gore and the IPCC have been completely discredited, huh old buddy?

[brett3215]

Great clip. I suggest to all those who disagree that they spend some time in a socialist country. Most never have and will argue that it is brilliant. I hope they can keep living and enjoy their freedom to whine, oh and to the dismay of the socialist left, that is part capitalism. Enjoy it while it lasts. America is on the downhill slide. Not thanks to capitalism but thanks to the bankrupt government.

[gwatzeeper12]

Donahue was off his game in this debate, For Freedman to justify greed by saying they have greed in China, and India is ridiculous. With that kind of logic, one could justify murder...

[losheva]

with bastard logic like friedman was...

[Ddvex]

Is he really justifying greed, or is he just stating a fact? Doesn't the whole "wiked" world run on individuals persuing their own interest?

[Wraith23]

Murder is a violation of the non-aggression.

[seokc78]

Mangina900, go back to cuba. Get out of our country you communist freak! The fuck is wrong with you? Why are you so miserable? Just get the fuck out!!! I'm sick of paying my hard earned little amount of dollars to people like you! Lazy, good for nothing shits like you! Leave the real hard working Americans alone and get out!!! Peice of shit!

[mistarcraw]

i was agreeing with you about your slave comment, adding onto it. the other comment was to someone else. i can see how you thought i was attackin you though. in fact we're not disagreeing much. but as a keynesianist, i think youd enjoy an article on Biology and Economics that i found essential to my economic study. it's very readable, and relevant to our situation. rationalrevolution period net, under the articles section, called Biology and Economics.

[JonnyUTSA]

How incredibly profound. It's amazing that after hearing a perfect explanation that Phil still doesnt get it. Liberalism is a religion, and as such real world proof doesnt matter.

[mistarcraw]

the Free Market guided by a magical Invisible Hand is a religion, that has nothing to do with psychology or biology or empiricism for that matter. it's irrational and even adam smith was against it.

if there's a good time to see what an utter abject failure those neoclassical/neoliberal ideas are (of which i used to be a student and apologist myself) you can look at the present global crisis. you don't have to go to the disastrous hell shock therapy did in chile, russia, and iraq, it's here.

[Wraith23]

I believe that people taking their own decisions about their purchasing power in the market is the "invisible hand".

There is nothing religious about it.

[mistarcraw]

what is "their own decisions"? of course it has nothing to do with real psychology, but everything to do with 'Rational Actors'. this is why the invisible hand, rational actors, and the profit motive is all self-destructive religious nonsense. I'd say it even supersedes religion, not only in its absurdity, but also in its self-annihilating expression of power, as well as its intellectual vacuum. To this system, might is the only right. That is, unless might is coming from the angry oppressed

[Wraith23]

I believe individuals are rational in their mind process, the masses on the other hand are much more destructive and senseless.

To want profit from your own hard work is not self-destructive but rational.

[mistarcraw]

individuals are easily not rational, demonstrably so. individuals are material, they are the product of millions of years of evolution. if you disagree, thats fine, but this is science

and what do you mean hard work? do you mean society perfectly rewards hard work? how does a steelworker not work hard, or a nurse? how do they work less hard than the average investment banker? which is more beneficial in light of present developments? how is it that wealth is inherited so easily and customarily?

[Wraith23]

Of course I dont disagree with evolution, in fact I think the human mind, thanks to evolution, is complex enough for self-government.

By hard work I mean honest, legit and professional.

But of course is not self-appreciation what determines remuneration but the needs of the market or society, and usually that is correlated with more intellectual jobs.

[mistarcraw]

Ive studied economics and, while this is the contention of the orthodox theory, I do not think this reflects the facts on the ground. At all. to quote Adam Smith, "the rise of profit operates like compound interest," and the people Friedman defends are "silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains"

As far as the complexity of the human mind allowing it to govern itself, well yes, in some respects I agree. But the human mind is geared overwhelmingly to the social & cooperative

[RadAntelope]

I've read PHOTUS by Zinn, by the way, and it's not that impressive. It's narrative goes thus: "Indians killed by whites, racism, slavery, robber barons, racism, FDR was great, racism, the Klan, racism, Vietnam was wrong, racism, America sucks." It was required reading in college because my professor was a former communist and member of SDS, by the way. Seems his clique did a number on you, though.

[RadAntelope]

Henry Ford developed the 40-hr work week, and the left whines that even that is too much (see France's failed experiment with the now-repealed mandatory limit 35-hour work week). Wages - if they are so "decent" simply because "big business" fought them, why is the left still whining(excluding of course Hollywood and entertainment, Big Environment)? Social security is going bankrupt thanks to the failed economic model underpinning it.

Some 'philosophy' you and Zinn got there.

[Mangina9000]

Henry Ford did not "develop the 40 hour work week." What fucking planet are you on?

[RadAntelope]

You're joking, right?

GOOGLE "Henry Ford AND 40 Hour work week" and select any article - even Wikipedia. Starrt reading.

Seriously, you need to shut up. You have no f*cking idea what you're babbling about.

I'm living on Earth. What bizzaro-world planet have you been stuck on for the past century and a half?

[Mangina9000]

Yes, Ford also sent spies and thugs to bust up unions. If you think he voluntarily gave up his money you're brainwashed by the Heritage Foundation. Unions had been pushing for it for years and in 1919 the ILO mandated an 8 hour work week at the Paris Peace Conference. That's 7 years of kicking and screaming that Ford performed before he turned his back on Wall Street.  He continued to hound and oppress his workers. He was also a fucking NAZI.

[rspawn]

Friedman lies:

"The only cases in recorded history where the masses have escaped from grinding poverty are where they had capitalism and largely free trade."

Decent minimum wage, 40hr workweek (as opposed 80hr/wk), abolition of child labor etc etc are the result of the struggles of the labor movement in opposition to the exploitation of capitalists and free traders.

That's why there's so little education about that in the schools of capitalist USA.

[RadAntelope]

Capitalism does more for the wealth and standard of living for more people than any government ruled by the creed of "anti-greed" has ever produced or will ever produce. Period.

Funny - you pretend that being a free trader is a sin while being a looter is a virtue.

Run along, comrade. There's a party loyalty rally tonight, and you don't want to appear disloyal to the proletariat by hanging around on the bourgeoisie creation of "YouTube," lest you be accused of supporting bourgeoisie values.

[rspawn]

All the important advances for laborers have come about in spite of opposition from owners of big businesses: decent minimum wage, 40hr workweek, social security, abolition of child labor, etc.

see Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States"

[Mangina9000]

"Capitalism does more for the wealth and standard of living for more people than any government ruled by the creed of "anti-greed" has ever produced or will ever produce. Period." Tell that to a slave.

[RadAntelope]

Education time again.

By definition, slavery is not part of capitalism. That's like saying that ancient Egypt was a capitalist society when the Pharos made the Jews build the pyramids. But this all is, of course, irrelevant to anything we're discussing here because you're an ignoramus and can't make a coherent point.

[Mangina9000]

Wow, thanks for educating me. By the way, who the fuck is talking about what capitalism is or is not? What do you have to gain from that community college freshman rhetoric? Nobody in this thread that I can see is talking about abolishing capitalism, but I'm glad you're feeling better about yourself. And slavery is, in fact, a part of capitalism. It was part of American capitalism, until we as a society chose to abolish it. Child labor was also a part of capitalism (and still is).

[mistarcraw]

yeah tell that to the Dubai slave workers that were lured in from other countries. there's a great article titled "the dark side of Dubai", ya can google it, but i'm sure no apologist for friedman's irrational policies would care

[Mangina9000]

Wait, I am by no means an apologist to Friedman.

I'm a Paul Krugman kind of guy.

But thanks for completely misunderstanding my comments and voting them down.

[rspawn]

The Pyramids of Egypt were constructed under government order, so was the A-bomb.

[rspawn]

The internet came from a "government bureau".

If iit were up to corporate interests we'd still be working 80 hr a week for $1 an hour.

[rspawn]

Russia and China = State-Capitalism

Difference with the US is, in Russia and China govt started out as an institution of, by and for corporations, in the US govt started out as of, by and for the people - and then it got corrupted by corporations.

Individually pursuing individual interests is ok, but people seem to have forgotten there are also collective interests (healthcare, education, etc) which can better be pursuid collectively.

[TimeWarp66]

Where the fuck is the full video of this interview!?!?!?!?!?

[Mangina9000]

Milton Friedman was a complex and brilliant man, but his celebrity destroyed him. His philosophy and caprice in the public eye often overshadowed his virtues as an economist. Sadly the cult of Friedman is largely responsible for this terrible mess that we're in.

[TimeWarp66]

(facepalm)

I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you actually believe what you just said.

[Mangina9000]

As to "knowing anything about Friedman," please read Studies in the Quantity Theory of Money and tell me that I'm wrong. There is a disconnect between the different Friedmans throughout time. Often times Schwartz will contradict herself in the same goddamn paper, which is sad, because their contributions to economics cannot be understated.

[chopngratty]

Donahue is out of his league. !

[jfree1998]

Amen Mr. Freidman, now if only those lefty loons would actually pay some attention to history, but alas, blinded by bleedings hearts they are digging us a hole so deep our great great grandchildren will still be trying to fill it...

[Mangina9000]

Perhaps you'd like to transcend Friedman's delving into pop psychology (because it makes you feel better about your selfishness, perhaps?) and read what he actually believed as an economist. He would not have been overtly opposed to stimulus. It is not Friedman vs. The Left, and economics is not a redneck football game.

[jfree1998]

He most certainly would have been against a scheme for the gov to take over banks, cap and trade on fuel, and caps on bonuses along with abusive taxations. Spare me the socialist apologetics.

[Mangina9000]

Do you understand the difference between the very peculiar celebrity of Friedman and the cultish adhering to what his (perceived) tenets and the work he actually did in economics?

[Mangina9000]

Since you appear to believe that economics is a football game, I'll just point out what I'm saying. Friedman and Schwartz believed that the Fed could have done more to stop the depression by increasing the money supply. and yes, bailing out banks with large loans. Despite belief among many worshippers of Friedman-as-God, he did not say simply that the Fed "caused" the Great Depression.

[TimeWarp66]

He most certainly did. He said on many occasions he would like to see the FED abolished, or replaced by a computer. And if you know anything about Friedman, you would know, he would never support corporate welfare.

[Mangina9000]

Compare what Friedman did as a celebrity, that is, 1978 to his death, and what he actually said in his work, his actual economics pertaining to the Fed and the Depression. There is a major discrepancy between the views he expressed on monetary supply and the Fed and what he discussed as he got older and became more of a popular figure. He became reckless in his discourse to the point that he reneged on many of his more flagrant opining in the years closer to his death.

[jfree1998]

Apparently mangina, you are incapable of reading what is written. I said he would be against the fed taking over, see? I never said the Fed caused the Great Depression at all, it did prolong it, there is no doubt about it, by doing what than dumbass Obama is doing now, expanding gov, upping taxes and acting like a dictator.

[Mangina9000]

You're absolutely right, well, half of what you said is right. Friedman said the Fed "prolonged" the Great Depression because it didn't increase the money supply and let banks flounder. So Obama is actually doing what Friedman suggested, you know, before he came Friedman the Reaganite celebrity and poster boy.

[Mangina9000]

"What happened is that [the Fed] followed policies which led to a decline in the quantity of money by a third. For every $100 in paper money, in deposits, in cash, in currency, in existence in 1929, by the time you got to 1933 there was only about $65, $66 left. And that extraordinary collapse in the banking system, with about a third of the banks failing from beginning to end, with millions of people having their savings essentially washed out, that decline was utterly unnecessary." -Friedman

[Mangina9000]

I just had the clarity to read your post again.

"I never said the Fed caused the Great Depression at all, it did prolong it, there is no doubt about it, by doing what than dumbass Obama is doing now, expanding gov, upping taxes and acting like a dictator."

Are you saying that the Fed can 1) expand government 2) raise taxes and 3) ACT LIKE A DICTATOR? I love you. Don't ever change.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

every time I watch this clip, I realize how briliant that man was

[PendletonWhiskey]

He was a brilliant snake oil salesman but a horrible economist.

[LeGioNoFZioN]

not as brilliant as Al Gore when it comes to snake oil mind you

[PendletonWhiskey]

Just because Donahue knows next to nothing about economics doesn't mean that Friedman isn't a turd. Friedmans economic philosophy and theory's are what brought about the current economic disaster we find ourselves in now. Iceland fell in love with Friedman and did everything he suggested and look at them now. A country in shambles. Ours is nearly there. What he says in this clip sounds good. He's talking a good game but the reality is that unbridled capitalism leads to economic doom.

[timDOGcrane555]

wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong... do you really think that Iceland and America now half free-market economies? They don't. Keynesian economics( Socialism) , is what got Iceland and America into the mess and they are in now. The free market (Freidman's economic policy, based in true Austrian economics.) never had a chance.

[timDOGcrane555]

Get ready for the worst presidency in American history, Obama's, the destruction of the dollar, mass misery, and maybe the fall of America. Ironically for the same reasons that the Soviet Union fell, Marxist economics.

[PendletonWhiskey]

Apparently you haven't noticed that our economy is in the tank. This is after 30 years of drinking Friedmans cool-aid. He's a joke. Wake up for crying out loud - snap out of your ideology crazed haze.

[timDOGcrane555]

As I said " Keynesian economics( Socialism) , is what got Iceland and America into the mess and they are in now."

Wake up from your ideological crazy haze of Marxism, it never has worked and never will.

What genius Marxist idea do you have to "fix" our economy?

[PendletonWhiskey]

I don't have any Marxist ideas at all and I resent that you would imply that because I don't drink the same cool-aid you do I must be a communist. Don't you ever get tired of repeating Rush Windbag? The first thing I would suggest is that we bring back tariffs. We need to stop the export of jobs and rebuild a manufacturing base in this country. I suppose that's communist to you but in my neighborhood it's called common sense. More tax cuts for billionaires isn't the answer either.

[PendletonWhiskey]

Basically we need to dismantle everything that Reagoon did. We need to stop the war on the middle class that he launched. Oh I suppose that's communism to you. Oh my God I MUST be a communist if I don't worship at the alter of Bonzo!

[timDOGcrane555]

Reagan did more good for this country and the world than any other American political figure in the 20th-century. The reason we are the lone superpower, and the most successful civilization in world history is because of what our founders started and a few conservatives like Reagan were able to carry on. In the real world you need proof For an argument. But liberals don't care about proof, just feelings... LOL pansies.

[timDOGcrane555]

Yes! Tariffs and higher taxes... exactly what FDR did to ensure 10 years of the Great Depression. Fucking brilliant!

Would you please define the middle class? You can't, or like every good Marxist you won't because it's relative, and always changing for you. Correction: we need to dismantle everything FDR, Wilson BJ Clinton, and everything your fearless savior Nobama will do.

Common sense is forcing people and businesses to do what you want them to? Interesting. That's why we're here.

[PendletonWhiskey]

And that's it for me. You go ahead and smoke your reich wing dope but you'll have to do it with out any help from me. I'm out.

[benjleeru]

the only reason you ever had a high standard of living to begin with was a result of capitalism. It was never the result of some stimulus bill.

[Mangina9000]

If you feel you are saying something in support of Friedman, you might want to double check some of his actual standings on the Fed. And stimulus and capitalism are not a contradiction in terms. Don't know where you got that one.

[suebou57]

Maybe Obama should NOT watch this, or YouTube might have to take it down like the SNL skit about the root causes of the sub-prime mortgage crisis.

[mbelma6329]

Donahue had no response when Friedman asked him if he knew a society that didn't run on greed.

He was too smart for this show.

[jonwlowe]

donahue allowed this guy to speak on his show!?

[newtonbrook]

Obama should watch this.

[penguinistas]

Awesome video. Milton freedman spoke very well and his logic was so clear. Thank you for posting this clip.