Charles Finney and the Heresy of American Pelagianism (White Horse Inn)

[atoam]

Thanks for this great information, it makes sense looking back in history and seeing where we are now. how sad this state of evangelicalism is in America today

[ghostnoteus]

Back in his day, it was the so called Christians who burned effigies of Charles Finney and Daniel Nash to try to stop the revival. That same type of attitude was evident even during the Brownsville revival in the 1990's. Do you know what revivals produce? People get saved and stay saved. That is true faith. How is what Charles G. Finney did anathema, while there are those that teach that if they say a prayer they are eternally secure? We want what cost Christ everything for nothing!

[BeholdTheSonOfGod]

It figures you'd go to be a lawyer, you snake. The school will kick you out if you try to do in your research papers the same garbage you pulled on your hate-Finney videos. You committed repeated serious academic offenses that you won't get away with. You wanna see how a real lawyer deals with truth and facts?

Go watch my updated videos defending Finney.

You and your 'paraphrase'. This isn't over by a long shot. You can't revise Church history and get away with it.

[Fgsltw316]

Calvin and Luther, the two greatest heroes of Reformed Theology.

Hitler stated, "Martin Luther has been the greatest encouragement of my life."

Nazi leader Striker at his Nuremberg trial stated, "I have never said anything that Martin Luther did not say". Calvin was also extremely anti semitic. How can any rational bible reading person claim the leaders of Reformed theology have theology identical to the Holy Bible?

[Fgsltw316]

@Fgsltw316 Those who are dogmatic about Calvin and Luther are like those who follow Joseph Smith. Calvin and Luther left a mess behind them.

[MRKetter81]

@Fgsltw316 Those are the most obvious ad hominem arguments I ever heard. Calvin was againt the religion the jews practiced not jews as a race. As for Luther, most of his early writing were reasonible; it was only later in his old age that even his wife understood he was bickering.

You've said nothing about reformed theology.

[lpbl2004]

Hey Lane, its funny you have posted this. I am reading Ian Murray's Revival and Revivalism, and it especially addresses Charles Finney's rise as a new age revivalist. Anyone interested in learning about revivalism in the U.S., pick this book up, its well written and highly detailed, God Bless.....

[atoam]

Great info

[albenia1935]

With Faith comes good works.......Da! People sent Jesus to the cross for telling the truth. God sent Jesus to the cross as final attonement.

Does Billy Grahms thoughts count?.......................L­ove ya........Rev. Charles Finney

[roselaw1951]

How can this not offend the believer? Surely this is ludicrous! To say he called himself a Pastor/Preacher of the Holy word.

[Fgsltw316]

It is sad that deformed...I mean reformed theology can't stand up on it's own merits. They have to slander a great evangelist, theologian and revivalist like Finney. They never mention the fact that Luther and Calvin hated God's "Chosen" people the Jews. Calvin said, "I have had much conversation with many Jews: I have never seen either a drop of piety or a grain of truth or ingenuousness—nay, I have never found common sense in any Jew." The Calvin Handbook page 146 HYPOCRITES!!!

[frmdeath2life]

@Fgsltw316 To say that Reformed Theology doesn't stand up on it's own merits is to say that the Bible doesn't either. Speaking the truth about someone's theological beliefs isn't slander sir. We are to expose the false teachings of deceivers by comparing them to Scripture. NOTHING ELSE. You, however, accuse someone of slander and then proceed to quote something out of a book that Calvin was supposed to have said that has nothing to do with heresy. YOUR definition of hypocrite please?

[Fgsltw316]

@frmdeath2life Defining Reformed theology as equal to the bible is both arrogant and erroneous. Speaking the truth is not slander, I agree. The problem is the truth is not being spoken. There is a lost and dying world around us. Throwing mud on Finney does not make your theology biblical! Jesus died for all who will repent and believe on him. He does not pick and choose like deformed theology teaches. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD" - James, Brother of Jesus Christ - was James a false prophet?

[frmdeath2life]

@Fgsltw316 Reformed Th. was taken from Scripture not equal to it. Was it unfair that God chose the the Nation Israel for Himself too? But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Rom. 9:20-21 All who were APPOINTED to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

[frmdeath2life]

@Fgsltw316 - We can't pick and choose the Scriptures we like and ignore the ones we don't like or cannot understand the way Finney did to create his own theology. Since Calvinists believe in the Whole counsel of God's word they also know that......Faith is a GIFT not of works... For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10 SO then........I will show you my faith BY my works James 2:18

[billyhutchings]

Romans was expressly written to anyone holding the viewpoint of a works based salvation. Not to be confused with what Jesus, James, Peter, John, Jude and Revelations calls "Works". Romans speaks of a work that goes AROUND Jesus, works of our own. (Jews,Mormons,Catholics,Islam)­...

Not the Holy Works that prove we have Gods Holy Spirit which is NECESSARY to enter heaven! (John 15) Calvinism is for people that want to go to heaven but are not willing to pay the cost of FOLLOWING JESUS! - Amen?

[tiagotrinidad]

@billyhutchings Works have no role in salvation. God only has. And saved man are changed by God to do the works that where planned for them by God.

Let's do a silly comparison where God is like the fuel in a car. If the car has fuel it can work.

God saves people by the imputation of the justice of Jesus and His sacrifice by bearing our sins (things Finney rejected) and God gives man the capacity and the will to worship Him and bear fruit.

That's the reformed biblical doctrine.

God bless

[cornwallsteve]

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation." (Peter - Acts)

Is the BIble in error?!? If you claim man has no part in their own salvation - You are in disagreement with the Word of God friend.

[Mojosbigstick]

"Malt does more than Milton can

To justify God's ways to man"

A.E. Housman.

[ChristsArmorBearer]

The reason why your "grace" preaching isn't doing so well is because your grace teaching is flawed. Yes believers are made righteous by faith however, proper exegesis of the book of Romans, you would know that the righteous shall also live by faith. A revelation the Reformers missed entirely.

[Lhoizae]

If we have a so called "sin nature" then sin is a natural thing for us to do & we can't be condemned for it, for no one can be justly condemned for what is natural.

[NCDG83]

How come I dont see attacks on Spurgeon for preaching a sermon about the earth being million yrs of age when the bible said it's around 6,000+ based on genealogical timeline from Adam to Christ up to the present day?

And Luther for believing and writing that the earth was flat when bible clearly said that it was spherical in shape? Oh and don't even get me started with Calvin.

These are the men of God I look up to and very blessed with their teachings along with Finney :) Stop the wranglings!

[WITNESSMINISTRIES]

(Part 1) Jesus Christ came into the world as a PERFECT lam of God for the ATONEMENT of the sins of all men. Scripture makes that VERY clear. It is Christ's IMPUTED righteousness we need on judgment day a perfect righteousness man can never attain by himself because man is imperfect and full of sin.

[WITNESSMINISTRIES]

(Part 2) If you show up on judgment day without Christs IMPUTED righteous SHAME ON YOU. Christ WILL have VENGENCE on all those who have NOT obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

[Brother563]

Does the wrangling ever end?

[Lhoizae]

Man is a willfull criminal, not a victim of Sinful nature; being condemned for the way one is born

If one can not keep from sinning, the he is a victim of a sin nature because of Adam's original sin; he is not a willful criminal who chose to rebel/disobey, but he is an invalid (not by self affliction) who can not obey God.

Some make it out that your sin is not your fault, but blame it on your nature, being born that way (Isaiah 53:5) (no one is blamed or guilty for being born a certain way).

[Kyle359]

If sin is a mere choice, then I can choose not to sin, and meet God's holy standard all by myself, eliminating completely the need for grace. That's what theologians from St. Augustine to Luther, Calvin and Edwards condemned in Pelagius's teachings. See Romans 5:12-21, 9:10-21, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22. If there's no such thing as original sin, there's no need for grace, and Christianity is just a moral code like Islam or Hinduism. Just live a good life, don't sin and everything will be OK.

[Lhoizae]

Sin is in fact a mere choice, & we can choose not to sin and meet God's holy standard all by ourselves, eliminating the obligation of offending God ( In reality, contrary to your theology, sin is never an obligation).

Never the less, since we have chosen to sin, now we do need Grace & not eliminating it.

Sin is a Moral choice, not a mandate as you claim.

[RobertHSengstacke]

@Lhoizae So its possible for a person to never sin in this life, and that being the case they dont need Jesus to get to heaven. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Lhoizae]

@RobertHSengstacke

All mankind needs Jesus to get to heaven, but not as savior if they never sin, but only as Lord.

How great & Glorious would it be if someone never sins & not need Jesus as Savior, but only Lord!!!

[RobertHSengstacke]

@Lhoizae ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. ALL. not some, not a few, ALL

[Lhoizae]

Rom3:23 is in context with Rom 3:9 What then, are we better than they? Certainly not, for we have before proved both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.

All races & nations have sinned. “Both Jews and Gentiles" has come short of the glory of God.

This vers is not talking about individuals.

[RobertHSengstacke]

@Lhoizae So you want more verses dealing with individuals as well, not a problem. Ge.8:21; Ps.58:3; Ps.94:11; Ro.3:9-11; 8:7; I Co.2:14; Eph..2:1-3; Col.1:13; ITi.2:24-26; 2Co.4:4 Notice Psalm 58:3. Also in Psalm 51 where David says in sin his mother concieved him. You my friend are a heretic.

[lahridon2000]

Total inability does not diminish or do violence to human responsibility. Scripture teaches man is a wilful criminal who chooses to disobey - he has a will, he is not an autonmaton, however the will is in bondage to sin. He cannot and will not come to God unless God graciously makes the first move through regeneration.

[Lhoizae]

The speaker has no idea about Pelagianism.

Pelagianism believes the need for all who sin to repent and turn toward God through Jesus. Pelagianism believes in the recognition of sin and the need of forgiveness and justification by grace through faith in Jesus. It believes in the atoning blood of Jesus, the finished work of the cross. Pelagianism believes in the responsibility of man to the implied ability to obey Gods commands (command implies ability).

[lahridon2000]

What need does the person who has the ability (express/implied) to obey Gods Commands "of forgiveness and justification by grace through faith in Jesus, the atoning blood of Jesus, the finished work of the cross". What pelagianism gives with the right hand of assent to orthodox Christian belief it takes away with the left hand of dismissal of scriptual teaching of the true condition of unregenerate men and a gross misunderstanding of original sin.

[Lhoizae]

The need is because we choose to sin, not that we must sin as yall imply.

If we must sin, then we are not guilty, for guilt never comes by necessity, but from choice.

[lahridon2000]

No, sorry we dont imply that at all

[Lhoizae]

Okay, you don't "imply it, but you straight forwardly proclaim it. You say that we can't avoid sin; it is inevitable, nullifying the culpability of man.

In return, you vilify God, saying that HE condemns mankind for what he cannot do.

[Lhoizae]

Imagine a father walking hand in hand with his 4 year old son.

If the father walks far too fast for the child to keep up, & the child falls on his face and breaks his nose.

What kind of a father would then blame the child for falling, and then mock him by offering him forgiveness (knowing that the child could not keep up with him)?

[Lhoizae]

If God required more than we are able, that is exactly what He would be like and the sacrifice of Jesus would be only a mockery of our pitiable inability to abbey His law.

Obviously this picture is completely blasphemous and wrong because God is a loving creator, reasonable, and patient, righteous & good. Sin must be intentional to be condemnable

[lahridon2000]

Uh.. no sorry, we dont say that either...

[praiselordgrace]

wow, I knew it! amen.

[GospleWarior]

How many "wills" are in existence? Only the will of the One True and Living God. Therefore, freewill is a fallacy and a slippery slope. Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. There is none good and all our righteousness are as filthy rags. Everything is created to heap glory upon the King of Glory. Holiness and righteousness is the true glory of God and can only be achieved through fulfilling the will of the father of lights.

[DATCMOTO]

We have to SEPARATE salvation from the Christian life: we are SAVED by grace.. we are CALLED to obedience.. ( "who loves me?" "Who are by mother and my brothers?")

IS being saved (by grace) EVERYTHING? Is that enough? to just 'get in'?

IF we are to be EFFECTIVE Christians we must continually be 'transformed by the renewing of our minds' and 'take every thought captive' etc..

Free-will IS the curse, IS the Fall.. UNTIL we recieve Christ and then it becomes a blessing as we can now CHOOSE His will

[hoylesr]

And concerning blameworthiness or praiseworthiness being connected to freedom of will, Jesus himself is supremely worthy of all praise and honor for his work of redemption and holy life. And yet, he himself said that he could do no other thing than that which the Father had designed for him to do. No choice! And he is still to be praised for it all!

[hoylesr]

"Author of Sin" is a misleading idea. God has indeed authored ALL things. He purposed that sin be in His creation for His own reasons. But it does not make Him guilty of sin or blameworthy of wrong doing. And yes, He is ultimately responsible for the destinies of ALL men, saved or damned, simply by virtue of bringing them into existence, fore-knowing full well where they would end up.

[johnmcglone4]

illogical nonsense

[hoylesr]

Responsibility presupposes accountability, but accountability does not presuppose ability

or freedom. Accountability merely presupposes one who demands accountability. Since God demands accountability since he will reward righteousness and punish wickedness man is accountable. Since God is sovereign, he decides what he wants to decide, and whether human beings have free will or not never has to enter the discussion at all.

[my4kidsmom]

I really like how Paul Washer puts it: We might have FREE will, but we don't have GOOD will. Until God intervenes and gives us a new heart, with a new will, and makes us ALIVE. Like Lazarus, we can't rise from being dead in our trespasses and sins until Jesus calls us forth!

[jmhjmh5]

I also like the parable Washer used once:

Men are like the orcs in the lord of the rings. Totally depraved and evil to the core. They can not choose good, because they will not choose good.

Are they responsible for it?

Sure they are.

And when the humans come and slaughter the orcs everyone goes "Hurrayh! Justice!"

No one feels sorry for the orcs.

[stopplayingchurch]

He looks like he is demon possesed

[ephr123]

Didn't realize there are so much Heresy on America...

[APSOC38]

I hate to say this, but we're just scratching the surface. The unfathomable depths of heresy in America is beyond our comprehension. Unfortunately, it's still being propagated, and that's why the American spiritual soil is so dry and rocky that it makes the Sahara desert look literally fruitful.

[CarryANationIII]

Sola fide

[deaton29]

Outstanding!!!

[johntwfhm]

Hey Lane, I'm diggin the new graphics... aren't you in law school? How are you finding the time?

BTW, have you listened to the May 31st show, "Smooth Talk and Flattery"? Probably the best show this year, imho.

[LaneCh]

Hey John... Thanks!

I am in law school now, but classes don't begin until next week so I have plenty of time to do videos in the meantime. The new HQ WHI graphics are thanks to Mark Vander Pol at WHI who sent them to me a while back to incorporate in the videos here. Also, yes, I hope to get STandF up here soon. It was a great show. I have a template to work with now so it won't take me as long to make these WHI videos and I hope to get many more up.

[espunde]

I can say from going to semi-pelagian/Arminian congregations and denominations over the years that they are dreadfully boring and completely depressing. You never progress as a Christian or learn biblical (Reformed Protestant) Christianity, it's like eating baby food your entire life. I went to Methodist and Baptist congregations, and they followed the model of American style pelagianism to the letter.

[KakkoiGuy1]

Finney, Joseph Smith, and a host of other men and women in early American history really set the stage for this New Age mumbo jumbo goobly gob that is being so widely accepted as well as many psuedo Christian beliefs out there.

[SoldierofChrist87]

I must admit sinless perfectionism heresy and the garbage that charles finney preached is alot worse then calvinism.

[simshiver]

Calvinism is simply expositions of the doctorines of grace. What about scripture do you disagree with?

[SoldierofChrist87]

I've studied calvinism pretty extensively and prayed to God asking if calvinism is true and believe that ive found it isnt for the most part, some of it is most isnt. Most scriptures supporting it like romans 9 are usually taken out of context unknowingly/misinterpretted. Not that big of a deal though just a different view of scripture I know you guys are saved and enjoy watching and learning from calvinists such as John Piper etc.

[simshiver]

How do YOU know us guys are saved?

How is Romans 9 taken out of context?

Are you suggesting God has revealed to you that Calvinism is false?

I didn't learn "Calvinism" from Piper, I learned it from scripture, I didn't know there even was a definition before my Arminian pastor told me, sadly far to many have made God subject to there freewill.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Just let it speak for its self.

[WaitingforChrist]

Amen! If it depended on human will or exertion, then man has something to boast in. Pelagians & Hyper-Arminians have a problem with man's depravity and God's sovereignty because they think they are inherently good and they want to rule over themselves.

[AzaZeLgaming]

Well if we are inherently bad/evil, then clearly we cannot be held accountable for our actions, since we can do nothing but sin/evil/bad. This controversy was already acknowledged in the Early Church ... Many of the Church Fathers taught that humans have the power of free will and the choice over good and evil.

[AzaZeLgaming]

Justin Martyr said that 'every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way'. 'Unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.' . Tertullian also argued that no reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.

[AzaZeLgaming]

... if someone wants to refute the doctrine of Freewill, then if follows, that God itself is the author of sin and responsible of the destinies of the damned.

[LaneCh]

When did evil enter into creation?

[AzaZeLgaming]

Sorry, I dont get your question ... Sin is not "a thing", Sin is an action against God's will & Law.

[AzaZeLgaming]

... but if we want to draw some conclusion, then evil entered into creation, when that creation exercised his will to do evil.

[LaneCh]

So you are saying that Eve exercised her will to do evil then evil came into existence?

[praiselordgrace]

amen!

[sailing19100]

@all  God marred the clay on purpose, with purpose. Why people spend so much time arguing over this is a mystery to me.

[slaveofChrist7]

Haven't you read that sin is actually our human nature? It is more than an act...

Until Christ replaces our sinful nature, sin is a condition.

[lahridon2000]

Precisely - the fundamental dilemma of the Pelagian.

[Doulos7608]

@AzaZeLgaming So? That doesn't prove the doctrines of Grace to be false though.

A brother by the name of Vincent Cheung once said "One who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity."

[SoldierofChrist87]

I believe you guys are saved and that youre truly born again but I must say Calvinism fails.

[Freewillheresy]

Nope. Maybe God hasn't opened your mind to understand the scriptures yet. Ever think of that? Just because you can't grasp the concept of an all sovereign God, doesn't mean its not true. I hope God will reveal His Sovereignty to you.

[simshiver]

How? Use scripture, or don't bother.

[4570sharps]

SoldierofChrist87, lets say I make the following statement without ANY supporting reason or logic as to WHY I believe it; "Communism is the best, Freedom through a Constitutional Republic fails". The statement is meaningless & inflammatory to u without the OBVIOUS series supporting reasons why I would make such an outlandish statement to you, a freedom loving Constitutionalists. So if you can't/won't support your claim that "Calvinism fails" then it is your claim that is a meaningless failure.

[formeragnostic]

Thanks for posting this. I am not a Calvinist nor am I an Arminian but I wasn't aware how far Finney went off the deep end in his view of the atonement.

[DoctrinesofGraceBapt]

Amen, Amen, Amen. Save this wretched Sinner who would dare to raise his face against you, O Lord. Let us get back to the TRUTH that we are the wicked devils of this world who are in total and utter rebellion to a righteous and angry God whos Wrath is against us for His arrow is on the Bowstring, drawn back, ready to be drunk with our heart's blood. Let us flee to Christ, as Edwards said and throw ourselves before the thrown.

Amen

[DefendingTheTruth]

Awesome!

[laurieannek]

What do you think of 12 step programs like AA?

They seem to be self help programs and they say you can have a higher power that is anything, including a door knob, shoe, a cat, whatever you want.

[DaleC1980]

This was a good program. I did not realize at the time just how prevalent pelagianism truly is