back in 1988, I was asked by Uehara to come and train with him, I was at this time training under Kise Hanshi ......have to keep things in perspective, you can what if all day concerning things that you bypassed.
I did pick up some of his teaching via a friend of mine Matsuda San
I take this style now in Okinawa but I was rejected from his dojo in the mid 80's as he didn't teach foreigners. My friend took from him years before I attempted acceptance. We are both half Okinawan but he looked more local.
People can say what they want, I've heard all the criticism as I have been in Okinawa since 1969 on and off. Studying karate for over 37 yrs. Who expects him to hit his students with the boat oar or katana? The teaching is that it is possible, if that is all you have.
It is obvious that you are one of many experienced karateka who deeply revere this art. From all of these comments, I've taken away that I need to train at the hombu dojo here in Oki. It's the only way I will understand the benefit of these demos. Yes, weapons demos are dangerous, but this approach seems overly cautious and abstract. For comparison, when I see two-person demos of Katori Shinto Ryu, they are so impressive and clear. Still trying to question without being rude.
I'm having difficulty understanding the point(s) you're making. I don't know who you're referencing because the comments you've made seem in conflict with one another. The punctuation and grammar also threw me off.
Given the one concrete reference you made, (your ability vs. Michiko Onaga's) I'm tempted to think you're defending Udun-di. That's cool...if I'm reading it correctly(?). But the comparison might be more aptly placed if it were on a video that actually features her.
The man was in his 90's...what did you expect from his demo's? Im sure if any of you were his age and doing a demo you'll look lame and un-inspiring as while. use your brains people, I ain't going to name names but come on you people can't be that ignorant. LOL
Another comment worth repeating (from Mario McKenna on the Traditional Fighting Arts Forum):
"As for Uehara's interpretation of Ti, I think it is completely valid; albeit confounded by Hakko-ryu and Aikido. Uehara received certification / recognition in Hakko ryu from Okuyama and liaised with Ueshiba of AIkido...."
Do you formulate all of your opinons based upon other people's opinions? Don't worry if this demonstration seems too abstract for you to understand, it isn't simple and it's probably just too early in your training for you to see what you now, can't.
This seems to be a very emotional issue for the true believers. I guess I have blasphemed against the gospel truth. So be it. I was underwhelmed in much the same manner as Jakneife. In response to some of those who cried foul, I added some similar impressions from respected practitioners and researchers, who are far more experienced than I. Still not good enough for the converted. That's fine. He may well have been a brilliant man, and if so - this video does not convey his mastery.
I have a nidan in Hakko Ryu from Okuyama and a 4th Dan in a derivative of it. I have been doing Jujutsu for 20 years.
Brazillian Jujutsu has similar techniques to Hakko Ryu...it does not mean BJ comes from Hakko Ryu. Jujutsu is a set of principles. Of course there is overlap.
With that in mind and my experience, Hakko Ryu and Motobu Udundi are not the same. The focus between the two are completely different and the way in which techniques are executed are completely different.
I can see how the video's of Uehara sensei are difficult to understand- you might understand them differently after twenty or thirty years of practice. Motobu Udundi is a vast martial art- little of which you will see on video. The things we have been taught on Okinawa are nothing short of devastating. After 30 years of karate my mind has been opened to this- the most rational and diverse martial art I have ever seen. The man was a genious.
This is Motobu Udundi, the art of Choyu Motobu. Motobu-ryu is "karate" from Choki Motobu. I am a student of Motobu Udundi under Taira Ryosyu sensei, a thirty year student of Seikichi Uehara.
Former samurai who wished to continue to ply their trade embraced entertainment. These martially-inspired productions played the provinces, allowing ex-samurai to flash their swords. Many of the techniques of these traditional schools had never been seen publicly. Hoping to spur interest in traditional forms before they disappeared, Sakakibara also composed martial dances in order to increase their appeal to the public. Sakakibara Kenkichi is therefore considered the father of kenbu.
Even those in Japan, who KNOW that everything is based on CONTEXT, are trying to evaluate this martial art OUT OF CONTEXT!
I have been doing full contact karate, traditional Jujutsu, an koryu swordsmanship for 20 years and I am proud to be a part of Motobu Udundi. You must ask yourself why I and many other traditional martial artists actively train in Motobu Udundi. I promise you, the answer is not in a video on youtube or on a DVD.
The historical significance and the CONTEXTUAL effectiveness are awe-inspiring.
As a koryu sword practitioner, I understand COMPLETELY where the commentary about Udundi's effectiveness of community members like Mr. Skoss and others comes from. But as rabbitfish said, context...it is like trying to assess the ineffectiveness of a leg kick before walking into a kyokushin dojo...
The basics of timing, maai, the relationship between cadence and nukitsuke, controlling the center-line, and attacking
weak angles are all there as in any koryu. Pick up a history book (Kerr's will do), visit Okinawa, and get a cultural understanding of what is going on first. Then visit a dojo and stop hypothesizing about material you know nothing about.
Go tell Taika Oyata there is no such thing as Kyusho... or Morio Higaonna that kata is useless or ask Choki Motobu why he would do something as stupid as hitting someone with one finger knuckle. Go tell the Gracies that ground-fighting is ineffective in a
A quick gander at Jakneife's profile reveals he's been living in Okinawa for a while, has been practicing karate for a while, and is a member of two schools that have much more verifiable histories than Motobu Udundi. I've read History of an Island People by George Kerr. Interesting, but it doesn't explain the prearranged sets and lack of intent behind the attacks seen here.
this must be the most unrealistic video on martial arts ever. there is no skill whatsoever, it looks crap, i am truly disgusted. who is this guy? and why is he called the master of masters?
"Uehara Seikichi has done a number of demonstrations that involve all manner of weapons. The major problem is (I'm looking at if from a Japanese weapons arts-trained POV), though, that it looks really lame. Maybe they did actually train with a sword, glaive, spear like that. But if that were so, they sure never faced a trained warrior. If they had, the Motobu family line would've been nipped in the bud."
Meik Skoss began training in martial arts in 1966 in Los Angeles. In 1973 he went to Japan to continue his training in aikido. After moving to Tokyo in 1976, Skoss started studying Shinto Muso-ryu jo under Shimizu Takaji, Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginatajutsu with Muto Mitsu, and Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu under Sawada Hanae. It was also at this time that he began to work with Donn F. Draeger and accompanied the master hoplologist on several field trips to Southeast Asia.
In 1979 he started Yagyu Shinkage-ryu heiho and Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu under the 21st generation headmaster, Yagyu Nobuharu Toshimichi. He practiced judo, t'ai chi, Goju-ryu karatedo and is training in jukendo and atarashii naginata. An MS in Physical Education, Skoss holds 5th dan Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei jodo, 5th dan jukendo, 4th dan aikido, 3rd dan tankendo, 2nd dan atarashii naginata, the okuden mokuroku and shihan licenses in Toda-ha Buko-ryu, and go-mokuroku in Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu.
Fluent in Japanese, and the owner of a substantial library of martial arts books in both English and Japanese, Skoss is one of several hoplologists continuing the work of Donn F. Draeger. He has traveled throughout Japan visiting various koryu and modern budo dojo and collecting information on the Japanese martial arts. Now resident in New Jersey, he and his wife run a dojo there; he also serves on the local volunteer Rescue Squad.
All very nice, but....when was it that he went to Okinawa and explored Motobu Udundi? Did he simply watch video's and read books? Which Udundi teacher did he visit and train with? The teachers that I know are extraodinarily convincing once you step onto the mats. Not trying to be sarcastic- just would like to know how one could experience a reasonable amount of Motobu Udundi and come out without being both hurt and impressed. Thanks!
If I understood Mr. Skoss's post on the old kobudo list correctly, he was commenting solely on Mr. Uehara's demonstrations with various weaponry. As one experienced and licensed in some Japanese weapon arts, as well as being a researcher and publisher who has apprenticed and worked with another well respected practitioner and researcher, Mr. Skoss was underwhelmed by the demonstrations he witnessed.
I think the fact that parts of this Udundi come from Aikido and that art has a collusion problem in some of it's demos, a case could be made for collusion here as well. Mario McKenna has written on the lack of documentation for the lineage, and the recent mixed influences of the art, in his karate & kobudo blog. Another well-known and respected practitioner and researcher of Japanese fighting arts did not have kind words for Udundi...I'll put those comments by Meik Skoss in my next comment.
From the time that Mr. Uehara began participating until the present time in Okinawan karate associations, he has been recognized by others directly as making heretical claims.
well if you notice sensei is alto older in all the videos you see him in one of the reasons for making these videos is probably the fact that knowing he is nearing his time of death he wanted to leave a visual aid reminder for his students probably.
interesting footage, I met Uehara Sensei back in the mid 80's, and the thing that stuck in my mind was his increadble grip streangth......a video is like skin and hair....just the outer trappings, to feel the technique is the bone and muscle
Would you say that this video is not representative of his skills? I've seen a lot of his kobudo demos on video and they generally look like this; training partners fall down without being touched and telegraph each movement. I noted this back in the '90s. This footage seems very unconvincing so I'm looking for more info.
you also have to take into consideration that this is exactly what it is a demonstration VIDEO, you do not think that sensei would actually show his true technique to the general public while he spent his entire lifetime developing it.
Uehara had the best timing - in Ti practice the footwork is usually more springy but then the guy is old here.. I know what you are thinkning but I dont doubt his ability - if that oar was a spear tip it is right in the right place for the attacker to impale themselves on - this is Ti .. in training however, it is not good to hurt one-another. Ti has been handed down from fuedal times its techniques work or it would not have survived to today. It can't be a sport though. Softness is the key.
You're the only one asking questions and I'm not a preacher! Here is another reflection Ti though. ..
I couldn't help sense a 'mocking intention' behind your posting this video - but it is interesting that no Ti practitioner has taken offence instead they have simply commented and tried to answer your questions. This is a perfect example of Ti.
Elaborating on my position about the video and asking questions is precisely what I should be doing. If I made nasty claims, without the foundation of knowledge one would have from training in Motobu Ryu, I think I'd have gotten a lot more hateful responses. That's why I dig with questions. Also, consider the tags I've used for the video. The people responding to it are self-selecting, more than likely. They're folks looking for Motobu Ryu footage. And that's perfect for my inquiries. Cheers.
back in 1988, I was asked by Uehara to come and train with him, I was at this time training under Kise Hanshi ......have to keep things in perspective, you can what if all day concerning things that you bypassed.
I did pick up some of his teaching via a friend of mine Matsuda San
Specter1957 11 months ago
I take this style now in Okinawa but I was rejected from his dojo in the mid 80's as he didn't teach foreigners. My friend took from him years before I attempted acceptance. We are both half Okinawan but he looked more local.
People can say what they want, I've heard all the criticism as I have been in Okinawa since 1969 on and off. Studying karate for over 37 yrs. Who expects him to hit his students with the boat oar or katana? The teaching is that it is possible, if that is all you have.
uminchu7th 1 year ago
@uminchu7th
It is obvious that you are one of many experienced karateka who deeply revere this art. From all of these comments, I've taken away that I need to train at the hombu dojo here in Oki. It's the only way I will understand the benefit of these demos. Yes, weapons demos are dangerous, but this approach seems overly cautious and abstract. For comparison, when I see two-person demos of Katori Shinto Ryu, they are so impressive and clear. Still trying to question without being rude.
Jakneife 1 year ago
@uminchu7th
hah?are you half of okinawan and american?
kaizoku3 1 year ago
BOAT OAR DEFEATS SINAWALI
SgtWreck 2 years ago
Comment removed
mikido9 2 years ago
I'm having difficulty understanding the point(s) you're making. I don't know who you're referencing because the comments you've made seem in conflict with one another. The punctuation and grammar also threw me off.
Given the one concrete reference you made, (your ability vs. Michiko Onaga's) I'm tempted to think you're defending Udun-di. That's cool...if I'm reading it correctly(?). But the comparison might be more aptly placed if it were on a video that actually features her.
Confused! Help!
Jakneife 2 years ago
When i cut and pasted from word all punctuation was wiped and message split in 3 - i ll repost clearer message and points when i have time soon.
mikido9 2 years ago
Comment removed
mikido9 2 years ago
Comment removed
mikido9 2 years ago
The man was in his 90's...what did you expect from his demo's? Im sure if any of you were his age and doing a demo you'll look lame and un-inspiring as while. use your brains people, I ain't going to name names but come on you people can't be that ignorant. LOL
anhkhoinguyen 2 years ago
Then I take it that you probably wouldn't pay $58.80 for the 45 minute instructional video?
Jakneife 2 years ago
hellll no!! With the internet these days I probably won't buy any instructionals, i'll just go on youtube =]
anhkhoinguyen 2 years ago
Another comment worth repeating (from Mario McKenna on the Traditional Fighting Arts Forum):
"As for Uehara's interpretation of Ti, I think it is completely valid; albeit confounded by Hakko-ryu and Aikido. Uehara received certification / recognition in Hakko ryu from Okuyama and liaised with Ueshiba of AIkido...."
otokonoyama 2 years ago
Do you formulate all of your opinons based upon other people's opinions? Don't worry if this demonstration seems too abstract for you to understand, it isn't simple and it's probably just too early in your training for you to see what you now, can't.
rabbitfish1 2 years ago
This seems to be a very emotional issue for the true believers. I guess I have blasphemed against the gospel truth. So be it. I was underwhelmed in much the same manner as Jakneife. In response to some of those who cried foul, I added some similar impressions from respected practitioners and researchers, who are far more experienced than I. Still not good enough for the converted. That's fine. He may well have been a brilliant man, and if so - this video does not convey his mastery.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
Actually, I think that you and I agree and have all along! As I said- his video's are hard to understand!
Good luck in your training!
rabbitfish1 2 years ago
I have a nidan in Hakko Ryu from Okuyama and a 4th Dan in a derivative of it. I have been doing Jujutsu for 20 years.
Brazillian Jujutsu has similar techniques to Hakko Ryu...it does not mean BJ comes from Hakko Ryu. Jujutsu is a set of principles. Of course there is overlap.
With that in mind and my experience, Hakko Ryu and Motobu Udundi are not the same. The focus between the two are completely different and the way in which techniques are executed are completely different.
robertmrivers 2 years ago
I can see how the video's of Uehara sensei are difficult to understand- you might understand them differently after twenty or thirty years of practice. Motobu Udundi is a vast martial art- little of which you will see on video. The things we have been taught on Okinawa are nothing short of devastating. After 30 years of karate my mind has been opened to this- the most rational and diverse martial art I have ever seen. The man was a genious.
rabbitfish1 2 years ago
I noticed you wrote Motobu Udundi. Is this Motobu Ryu or Motobu Udundi? I can't remember which is from Motobu Choki and which is the family style.
Jakneife 2 years ago
This is Motobu Udundi, the art of Choyu Motobu. Motobu-ryu is "karate" from Choki Motobu. I am a student of Motobu Udundi under Taira Ryosyu sensei, a thirty year student of Seikichi Uehara.
rabbitfish1 2 years ago
Ah thanks for the info. I'll change the description. This promo was at the end of a Motobu Ryu video.
Jakneife 2 years ago
Former samurai who wished to continue to ply their trade embraced entertainment. These martially-inspired productions played the provinces, allowing ex-samurai to flash their swords. Many of the techniques of these traditional schools had never been seen publicly. Hoping to spur interest in traditional forms before they disappeared, Sakakibara also composed martial dances in order to increase their appeal to the public. Sakakibara Kenkichi is therefore considered the father of kenbu.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
You all are amazing...
Even those in Japan, who KNOW that everything is based on CONTEXT, are trying to evaluate this martial art OUT OF CONTEXT!
I have been doing full contact karate, traditional Jujutsu, an koryu swordsmanship for 20 years and I am proud to be a part of Motobu Udundi. You must ask yourself why I and many other traditional martial artists actively train in Motobu Udundi. I promise you, the answer is not in a video on youtube or on a DVD.
robertmrivers 2 years ago
The historical significance and the CONTEXTUAL effectiveness are awe-inspiring.
As a koryu sword practitioner, I understand COMPLETELY where the commentary about Udundi's effectiveness of community members like Mr. Skoss and others comes from. But as rabbitfish said, context...it is like trying to assess the ineffectiveness of a leg kick before walking into a kyokushin dojo...
The basics of timing, maai, the relationship between cadence and nukitsuke, controlling the center-line, and attacking
robertmrivers 2 years ago
weak angles are all there as in any koryu. Pick up a history book (Kerr's will do), visit Okinawa, and get a cultural understanding of what is going on first. Then visit a dojo and stop hypothesizing about material you know nothing about.
Go tell Taika Oyata there is no such thing as Kyusho... or Morio Higaonna that kata is useless or ask Choki Motobu why he would do something as stupid as hitting someone with one finger knuckle. Go tell the Gracies that ground-fighting is ineffective in a
robertmrivers 2 years ago
fight...as every striker in the WORLD did in the early '90s...but now everyone is a believer, huh.
Stop forming your own opinion based on what you SEE and go to a dojo and have it explained to you. You might be surprised by what you hear.
robertmrivers 2 years ago
A quick gander at Jakneife's profile reveals he's been living in Okinawa for a while, has been practicing karate for a while, and is a member of two schools that have much more verifiable histories than Motobu Udundi. I've read History of an Island People by George Kerr. Interesting, but it doesn't explain the prearranged sets and lack of intent behind the attacks seen here.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
this must be the most unrealistic video on martial arts ever. there is no skill whatsoever, it looks crap, i am truly disgusted. who is this guy? and why is he called the master of masters?
singhakabuttar 2 years ago
"Uehara Seikichi has done a number of demonstrations that involve all manner of weapons. The major problem is (I'm looking at if from a Japanese weapons arts-trained POV), though, that it looks really lame. Maybe they did actually train with a sword, glaive, spear like that. But if that were so, they sure never faced a trained warrior. If they had, the Motobu family line would've been nipped in the bud."
otokonoyama 2 years ago
Who is Meik Skoss?
Jakneife 2 years ago
Meik Skoss began training in martial arts in 1966 in Los Angeles. In 1973 he went to Japan to continue his training in aikido. After moving to Tokyo in 1976, Skoss started studying Shinto Muso-ryu jo under Shimizu Takaji, Toda-ha Buko-ryu naginatajutsu with Muto Mitsu, and Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu under Sawada Hanae. It was also at this time that he began to work with Donn F. Draeger and accompanied the master hoplologist on several field trips to Southeast Asia.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
In 1979 he started Yagyu Shinkage-ryu heiho and Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu under the 21st generation headmaster, Yagyu Nobuharu Toshimichi. He practiced judo, t'ai chi, Goju-ryu karatedo and is training in jukendo and atarashii naginata. An MS in Physical Education, Skoss holds 5th dan Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei jodo, 5th dan jukendo, 4th dan aikido, 3rd dan tankendo, 2nd dan atarashii naginata, the okuden mokuroku and shihan licenses in Toda-ha Buko-ryu, and go-mokuroku in Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
Fluent in Japanese, and the owner of a substantial library of martial arts books in both English and Japanese, Skoss is one of several hoplologists continuing the work of Donn F. Draeger. He has traveled throughout Japan visiting various koryu and modern budo dojo and collecting information on the Japanese martial arts. Now resident in New Jersey, he and his wife run a dojo there; he also serves on the local volunteer Rescue Squad.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
All very nice, but....when was it that he went to Okinawa and explored Motobu Udundi? Did he simply watch video's and read books? Which Udundi teacher did he visit and train with? The teachers that I know are extraodinarily convincing once you step onto the mats. Not trying to be sarcastic- just would like to know how one could experience a reasonable amount of Motobu Udundi and come out without being both hurt and impressed. Thanks!
rabbitfish1 2 years ago
If I understood Mr. Skoss's post on the old kobudo list correctly, he was commenting solely on Mr. Uehara's demonstrations with various weaponry. As one experienced and licensed in some Japanese weapon arts, as well as being a researcher and publisher who has apprenticed and worked with another well respected practitioner and researcher, Mr. Skoss was underwhelmed by the demonstrations he witnessed.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
I think the fact that parts of this Udundi come from Aikido and that art has a collusion problem in some of it's demos, a case could be made for collusion here as well. Mario McKenna has written on the lack of documentation for the lineage, and the recent mixed influences of the art, in his karate & kobudo blog. Another well-known and respected practitioner and researcher of Japanese fighting arts did not have kind words for Udundi...I'll put those comments by Meik Skoss in my next comment.
otokonoyama 2 years ago
Here is the best translation that I could establish;
沖縄空手の長老などを含む沖縄空手界では、琉球空手に秘伝なる ものは存在しないという見解で一致しており.
In Okinawan karate, among the various senior practitioners, there is agreement that there are no secret techniques in Ryukyu karate.
Jakneife 2 years ago
上原さんの活躍されている当時から現在に至るまで沖縄空手界では、この上原さんはずっと異端のものと認識されている。
From the time that Mr. Uehara began participating until the present time in Okinawan karate associations, he has been recognized by others directly as making heretical claims.
Jakneife 2 years ago
これが本物の武術なのかどうかは見る人の判断で分かれるものであ ることを忘れてはいけない。
Surely, whether or not this is a genuine martial art is a subject that people are divided on.
I'd welcome others to let me know if I have translated correctly.
Jakneife 2 years ago
well if you notice sensei is alto older in all the videos you see him in one of the reasons for making these videos is probably the fact that knowing he is nearing his time of death he wanted to leave a visual aid reminder for his students probably.
bitchcuntnugget 3 years ago
interesting footage, I met Uehara Sensei back in the mid 80's, and the thing that stuck in my mind was his increadble grip streangth......a video is like skin and hair....just the outer trappings, to feel the technique is the bone and muscle
Specter1957 3 years ago
Would you say that this video is not representative of his skills? I've seen a lot of his kobudo demos on video and they generally look like this; training partners fall down without being touched and telegraph each movement. I noted this back in the '90s. This footage seems very unconvincing so I'm looking for more info.
Jakneife 3 years ago
Commenting when you don't understand it is not offensive. Its understandable...
The reason we fall down is so that we don't get a sword in our eye. If you are on the receiving end of it it is totally different...cheers
robertmrivers 3 years ago 4
you also have to take into consideration that this is exactly what it is a demonstration VIDEO, you do not think that sensei would actually show his true technique to the general public while he spent his entire lifetime developing it.
bitchcuntnugget 3 years ago 2
Why would he...bother...doing a video then?
Jakneife 3 years ago
Uehara had the best timing - in Ti practice the footwork is usually more springy but then the guy is old here.. I know what you are thinkning but I dont doubt his ability - if that oar was a spear tip it is right in the right place for the attacker to impale themselves on - this is Ti .. in training however, it is not good to hurt one-another. Ti has been handed down from fuedal times its techniques work or it would not have survived to today. It can't be a sport though. Softness is the key.
rosswoof 2 years ago
How would you define Ti?
Jakneife 2 years ago
Strange - I have tried replying twice now but it doesnt seem to register.
If you are interested in discussing Ti further why not drop me a line.
rosswoof 2 years ago
Well, I figured that, judging from your original comment, you had something to share with everyone, and not just me.
Jakneife 2 years ago
You're the only one asking questions and I'm not a preacher! Here is another reflection Ti though. ..
I couldn't help sense a 'mocking intention' behind your posting this video - but it is interesting that no Ti practitioner has taken offence instead they have simply commented and tried to answer your questions. This is a perfect example of Ti.
Anyway, thank you for posting
rosswoof 2 years ago
Elaborating on my position about the video and asking questions is precisely what I should be doing. If I made nasty claims, without the foundation of knowledge one would have from training in Motobu Ryu, I think I'd have gotten a lot more hateful responses. That's why I dig with questions. Also, consider the tags I've used for the video. The people responding to it are self-selecting, more than likely. They're folks looking for Motobu Ryu footage. And that's perfect for my inquiries. Cheers.
Jakneife 2 years ago