Continuation: They started out with a single stall strip, but it wasn't enough, so the second was added. An additional problem is that these stall strips were installed in the field with various levels of precision, and so some Tomahawks exhibit slightly different stall characteristics than others.
My Tomahawk (not the one in the video) stalls mostly straight ahead and in fact is a little too gentle, sometimes not actually breaking, but simply sinking with the nose bobbing up and down!
@rallyr I think whoever fitted the stall strips to the Tomahawk I learned in must've been drunk! Very dramatic and unpredictable wing drops were the norm. Funnily enough, years later this aircraft (G-BMML) stalled and crashed during an instructors demonstration of a short field take off from a grass strip. In saying all of that I love the Tomahawk. It might not be an F14, but on your first solo flight it might as well have been!
Actually, according to AOPA and other sources, the "understiff" wing is a myth. The "problem" (not really a problem, but a feature) is that the GAW-1 airfoil creates essentially a laminar flow wing and as it approaches stall the flow separates rather abruptly. This is common in laminar flow wings, but turned out to be too much to handle for a trainer/personal flyer. The inner and outer stall strips allow the airflow to separate in stages and make the stall break more predictable.
By the way: The main reason I did this video in the first place was to let people be as surprised as I was at the actual flow patterns over the GAW-1 wing, especially at the reverse airflow over the flaps! I found it fascinating (and a bit disconcerting!).
I hadn't noticed that. I'll pass it along to the pilot! It did look like there were no significant movements until after he initiated recovery. Also, bear in mind that the outboard portions of the wing stall last and recover first, so the airlerons were probably effective - and his movements were very limited.
limited or not, below 55kts my students are taught to "lock out" the ailerons and use only enough rudder to prevent any wing drop nothing more. Anything else is asking for an inadvertant spin. You may be right about this being the stall recovery it's hard to tell from the video, but looking at the tape disturbance moving back from the trailing edge of the wing i would say that it's probably during the entry to the stall.
Also the Tomahawk has 4 stall strips which promote stall in both outboard and inboard sections. There is little or no washout designed into the wing and also, its not the loss of effectiveness of the ailerons which is the issue here it's the secondary effect of using them. adverse yaw. I must say though you seem well informed, not like some of the other flight sim flight gods on here ! lol
Well, that's probably because I've never flown a flight simulator ;-) I'm a 1200 hour commercial pilot with 20+ years of experience. I also own my own Piper Tomahawk, so I'm pretty well aquatinted with its flight characteristics. Mine is not the one in the video, which came from another member of our Tomahawk user club on Yahoo. I did email your comment to him, so maybe he will log in here and provide some commentary on his handling of the plane.
Yes, there is a treasure trove of mis-information about the Tomahawk out there. I've found mine to be a solid and reliable performer, well built and easy to fly and maintain.
Personally i find a lot of it either comes from C150/152 owners, jealous that the a/c performs better and is more comfortable with better visability... and from the afore mentioned flight sim flight gods who've heard it from the Cessna owners lol
Almost ALL aircraft are designed with washout. This keeps the entire wing from departing (stalling) at exactly the same time, which is VERY abrupt. The Tomahawk has a 2-degree washout towards the tips, which is typical. While most POH's say to neutralize the ailerons for stall and spin recovery, the ailerons are, indeed, still available at almost all AOAs. They are useful IF you are an experienced pilot, and can help recoveries. I've taught aerobatics for over 18 years.
To continue, I've done thousands of stalls, and hundreds of spins in all types of aircraft, and have over 2800+ hours, most of it instructing aerobatics. While rudder is always primary for recovery, small aileron inputs are not only possible, but can help recoveries. Full or abrupt use if ailerons is never advised, but what I used is merely to keep the wings where I wanted them, and it produced next to no adverse yaw.
And remember, a spin is ONLY possible with two factors being met: a wing fully stalled (in reality, this means "as fully as you can get it"...it's never FULLY stalled!), and yaw, from one of several methods. If you noticed from my video, most of the aileron input was used after recovery (forward pressure) was applied. In this situation, meaning below critical AOA, you CANNOT spin an aircraft, even with yaw!
Seems unlikely in a Tomahawk, or most single engine light planes. The manufacturers best test pilots can't do it in under 100 feet! I suspect that you either are not actually fully stalled, or that you are ballooning upward entering the stall and recovering 40 feet below your original altitude.
Well, i do an altitude check, mentally note my altitude... say 3500'... and im very sure i do not climb a foot above that mark and bring power to idle, bring it to 'buffet' and recover within 40 feet... im not saying i always do it within 40 feet, but i am sure i do it within 100' every time, flap or no flap... thanks for the reply though rallyr, if you can give me a link with the test pilots not doing it below 100' ill be very happy... all the best.
That's the trick. The "buffet" is not fully stalled. This occurs when the inboard portion of the wing's airflow begins to separate. The turbulence shakes around the tail and creates the buffet you feel. In fact, the outboard portions of the wing are still flying just fine and recover can be immediate when the angle of attack is reduced. (an "incipient stall") Have your friendly local instructor show you "full stalls" and you'll probably be surprised.
I've heard that, but mine is a pussycat. It will drop a wing if you're not quick on the rudder, but then so will a C-150 and many other planes. Perhaps the one you trained in did not have the dual stall fences installed per the AD?
Excellent and very graphical explanation of the behaviour of this excellent airplane.
lw4dbe 1 year ago
Continuation: They started out with a single stall strip, but it wasn't enough, so the second was added. An additional problem is that these stall strips were installed in the field with various levels of precision, and so some Tomahawks exhibit slightly different stall characteristics than others.
My Tomahawk (not the one in the video) stalls mostly straight ahead and in fact is a little too gentle, sometimes not actually breaking, but simply sinking with the nose bobbing up and down!
rallyr 1 year ago
@rallyr I think whoever fitted the stall strips to the Tomahawk I learned in must've been drunk! Very dramatic and unpredictable wing drops were the norm. Funnily enough, years later this aircraft (G-BMML) stalled and crashed during an instructors demonstration of a short field take off from a grass strip. In saying all of that I love the Tomahawk. It might not be an F14, but on your first solo flight it might as well have been!
Beefybeaver1888 11 months ago
Actually, according to AOPA and other sources, the "understiff" wing is a myth. The "problem" (not really a problem, but a feature) is that the GAW-1 airfoil creates essentially a laminar flow wing and as it approaches stall the flow separates rather abruptly. This is common in laminar flow wings, but turned out to be too much to handle for a trainer/personal flyer. The inner and outer stall strips allow the airflow to separate in stages and make the stall break more predictable.
rallyr 1 year ago
what is on the wing?
ironedge626 2 years ago
They are short strips known as "tufts". They basically blow in the airstream and allow you to visually see the flow over the airfoil of the wing.
rallyr 2 years ago
i thought they wher ells
ironedge626 2 years ago
Great video, very interesting and well made. Really shows the progression of a stall from the wing root to the tip.
DSB1234567890 2 years ago
By the way: The main reason I did this video in the first place was to let people be as surprised as I was at the actual flow patterns over the GAW-1 wing, especially at the reverse airflow over the flaps! I found it fascinating (and a bit disconcerting!).
DS
SkyjockDS 2 years ago
Great video but it concerns me that the airlerons are being used so close to the stall at the beginning of the video...
freon1978 2 years ago
I hadn't noticed that. I'll pass it along to the pilot! It did look like there were no significant movements until after he initiated recovery. Also, bear in mind that the outboard portions of the wing stall last and recover first, so the airlerons were probably effective - and his movements were very limited.
rallyr 2 years ago
limited or not, below 55kts my students are taught to "lock out" the ailerons and use only enough rudder to prevent any wing drop nothing more. Anything else is asking for an inadvertant spin. You may be right about this being the stall recovery it's hard to tell from the video, but looking at the tape disturbance moving back from the trailing edge of the wing i would say that it's probably during the entry to the stall.
freon1978 2 years ago
Also the Tomahawk has 4 stall strips which promote stall in both outboard and inboard sections. There is little or no washout designed into the wing and also, its not the loss of effectiveness of the ailerons which is the issue here it's the secondary effect of using them. adverse yaw. I must say though you seem well informed, not like some of the other flight sim flight gods on here ! lol
freon1978 2 years ago
Well, that's probably because I've never flown a flight simulator ;-) I'm a 1200 hour commercial pilot with 20+ years of experience. I also own my own Piper Tomahawk, so I'm pretty well aquatinted with its flight characteristics. Mine is not the one in the video, which came from another member of our Tomahawk user club on Yahoo. I did email your comment to him, so maybe he will log in here and provide some commentary on his handling of the plane.
rallyr 2 years ago
I guess you get as fed up as me then with ill informed people bad mouthing them for no reason what so ever!
freon1978 2 years ago
Yes, there is a treasure trove of mis-information about the Tomahawk out there. I've found mine to be a solid and reliable performer, well built and easy to fly and maintain.
rallyr 2 years ago
Personally i find a lot of it either comes from C150/152 owners, jealous that the a/c performs better and is more comfortable with better visability... and from the afore mentioned flight sim flight gods who've heard it from the Cessna owners lol
freon1978 2 years ago
Almost ALL aircraft are designed with washout. This keeps the entire wing from departing (stalling) at exactly the same time, which is VERY abrupt. The Tomahawk has a 2-degree washout towards the tips, which is typical. While most POH's say to neutralize the ailerons for stall and spin recovery, the ailerons are, indeed, still available at almost all AOAs. They are useful IF you are an experienced pilot, and can help recoveries. I've taught aerobatics for over 18 years.
SkyjockDS 2 years ago
To continue, I've done thousands of stalls, and hundreds of spins in all types of aircraft, and have over 2800+ hours, most of it instructing aerobatics. While rudder is always primary for recovery, small aileron inputs are not only possible, but can help recoveries. Full or abrupt use if ailerons is never advised, but what I used is merely to keep the wings where I wanted them, and it produced next to no adverse yaw.
SkyjockDS 2 years ago
And remember, a spin is ONLY possible with two factors being met: a wing fully stalled (in reality, this means "as fully as you can get it"...it's never FULLY stalled!), and yaw, from one of several methods. If you noticed from my video, most of the aileron input was used after recovery (forward pressure) was applied. In this situation, meaning below critical AOA, you CANNOT spin an aircraft, even with yaw!
PS-I'm the one who did the video.
SkyjockDS 2 years ago
great video i am using this with my students
aa2p 3 years ago
I remember training on a tomahawk! First stall attempt... unintentional spin. Was quite a surprise for a pilot with 6 hours logged!
roni51154 3 years ago
LOL 6 hours lots of experiance :)
mjok2004 3 years ago
I recover from a stall within 40 feet... sometimes 20. Is that bad or good?
mithat87 3 years ago
Seems unlikely in a Tomahawk, or most single engine light planes. The manufacturers best test pilots can't do it in under 100 feet! I suspect that you either are not actually fully stalled, or that you are ballooning upward entering the stall and recovering 40 feet below your original altitude.
rallyr 3 years ago
Well, i do an altitude check, mentally note my altitude... say 3500'... and im very sure i do not climb a foot above that mark and bring power to idle, bring it to 'buffet' and recover within 40 feet... im not saying i always do it within 40 feet, but i am sure i do it within 100' every time, flap or no flap... thanks for the reply though rallyr, if you can give me a link with the test pilots not doing it below 100' ill be very happy... all the best.
mithat87 3 years ago
That's the trick. The "buffet" is not fully stalled. This occurs when the inboard portion of the wing's airflow begins to separate. The turbulence shakes around the tail and creates the buffet you feel. In fact, the outboard portions of the wing are still flying just fine and recover can be immediate when the angle of attack is reduced. (an "incipient stall") Have your friendly local instructor show you "full stalls" and you'll probably be surprised.
rallyr 3 years ago
Ok thanks for that, i will look into that more further.
mithat87 3 years ago
I trained in a Traumahawk ... Stalling it was always a very unsettling experience. :/
robhalpin 4 years ago
I've heard that, but mine is a pussycat. It will drop a wing if you're not quick on the rudder, but then so will a C-150 and many other planes. Perhaps the one you trained in did not have the dual stall fences installed per the AD?
Thanks for watching.
rallyr 4 years ago
He is always willing to spin. I love PA38`s, but i never spin on one
mpereznoble 4 years ago