US healthcare is the most overpriced and the most inefficient among developed countries.
In a profit orientated system like the US one it's not profitable for the doctor and the pharma companies to cure the patient using the most efficient medical procedures but the most expensive one and to perform as many as possible unnecessary procedures just to increase the bill
In a profit orientated system doctors aren't paid to keep patients healthy.The more sick people are the more doctors earn.
John McCain"You'll love Canada and England" he says sarcastically. Mr. McCain, have you received government heath care since being in the military probably 20 years old or so?In other words have you had it almost all your life?Then why the fuck would you preach to others that they shouldn't have what you were given by the US government.You fucking hypocrites make me sick but at least I'm covered in Canada
@Llortsaccount Oh and thank you for the childish insults on my wall?!
Llortsaccount (2 hours ago)
communist fag
Llortsaccount (2 hours ago)
canadian piece of shit
Are you 7 years old? Would explain a lot about your behavior. So again I ask. Counter argument? Retort? Anything but childish insults and ''bad words''? Ok ty.
@Llortsaccount you must be a fucking idiot that thinks labels are more important then results. Reality and results are not liberal or conservative peabrain. Any argument you would like to bring? Any retort? Any fact I gave out you do not like? No?
@Ayokolomo They ague with billing departments at Hospitals.They require detailed paperwork in order for them to scutinize ways to deny coverage. That causes a lot of administration rather than having more of a set "Fee For Service"with lesser variation They deny payments forcing individuals to pay.They pay shareholder dividends which have no input whatsoever into delivery .They have administration departments that are huge because of the complexities they have set up in order to deny coverage
Considering that McCain chose the moronic and redneckish Sarah Palin, he has no business talking down health systems that work a hell of a lot better.
@356pla Actually, we have something like that in Germany.It`s called "Kur" and gets paid for by health Insurance.Concerning the Food, there are Food-stamps in the U.S.
@356pla "Pillage" is quite an Exaggeration.Since everyone pays for it, the costs stay somewhat low overall. seem to.In Fact, Health Insurance Companys made a significant surplus this Year.Concerning the Foodstamps, these cost very little overall.
Besides, we have a way smaller (and somewhat more efficient, I may say) military Budget than the U.S.
@356pla There is no Force.If you wish to, you can just get private Insurance, much like the States do it.For most Folks however, it is simply cheaper to pay in the big Pool and get State-supported Healthcare from a Company of your Choice.No Force, no nothing.Just a simple, working System.
@ReezeGoingSenseless If that were true then you would be correct. The U.S. food stamp program is not in that category, as you know.
If the group fund is ..."to pay in the big Pool and get State-supported Healthcare " ... unless that STATE FUNDING is all voluntary donations for that purpose, and not imposed taxation, then you're on safe ground there too. Are you maintaining that is the case?
@356pla It is the Case indeed.Although it is not from Donations, but a State-budget, which exists since 1883.This "Pool" made a surplus as well.It`s basically a Win-Win Situation for People who could not pay anything Extra.We are the only Nation that maintains a Dual-System, letting People the choice between required Treatment only or fancy Healthcare due to extra Payments by the Customer.No extra Costs for the State, except that small Budget.
@ReezeGoingSenseless ANd how far in history do you need to go back to reach the date when your country changed this system to allow for opting out of using the state 'pool' of funds? And why was that change made?
Those who use private insurance for their healthcare, do their taxes continue to go into this fund they have rejected the use of? I plan on doing some research when I find the time so I'd appreciate a knowledgeable answer. Don't just parrot the mainstream media. Check for yourself.
@356pla Nop, they dont.If you choose a private Sickness-fund (a health insurance company), you dont have to pay anything at the State.As for how far this goes back, I have no Idea.
@ReezeGoingSenseless It took very little time and research to reveal you are either trying to deceive me, or can't be bothered to find the truth for yourself. Given that, you are not worth my time. Your system is certainly an improvement over mine, but not as faultless as you've suggested. It remains unjust and discriminatory. Given how poorly informed you evidently are, and your lack of inclination to find truth revealed in your closing statement, I won't bother discussing it further with U.
@356pla Because a hospital bill can cost thousands of dollars. A typical middle income family in the US will be financially devastated. Insurance companies aren't helping, these health insurance companies even pay experts to research ways for them to avoid paying out, in order to increase profits. Not to mention all of the red tape and the instances of fraud on part of these companies. As for food, anyone can buy it, rich or poor. Food is equally important as healthcare, but far easier to get.
@Centennial107 News Bulletin: Governments create red tape too. Government will ration available dollars too. Food would be more expensive if there were only one company left to buy it from. Monopoly is bad fro the customers what ever you are offering for sale. Food is available from many sources.
@356pla In the US, healthcare can be used from more than one company, and yet look at how much it can cost. In Canada or the UK, all the healthcare is provided by the state, and those Canucks or Brits don't have to pay out of their pockets, only through taxes. That's sort of like a monopoly, except that this one is run by the state.
@Centennial107 All monopolies require the threat of force to maintain them. All sustained monopoly is either backed by an organization willing to resort to criminal action, or by one that controls what is defined as criminal action.
All healthcare is not provided by the state in Canada or the U.K. It is provided by private individuals and corporations working within organizations regulated by, and paid through (not by) the state.
McCain attacks anything that might help the common people. McCain pretends to be a "maverick," but supports granting amnesty to illegal aliens. Canadian healthcare is great. The problem is it wouldn't work in the U.S. because we have such a large population, including illegal aliens. Canada's population is about the same size as the state of California.
If single payer is so good, then why did the Netherlands get rid of it? And why do they have the best healthcare in Europe? Let's hear it guys. Let me hear all the bullshit you want to throw at me. Let me hear all the, "oh I get a free lunch" speeches from you people. Nothing is free. You can't afford US healthcare? If the govt didn't prohibit you from buying it across state lines, it would be cheaper. If you didn't have to pay thousands in income taxes, you could use that money.
And one more thing, why is it that my parents need to buy two health insurances for me? I have two health insurances for two different cities. Do you know why? BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T ALLOW ME TO USE ONE IN MORE THAN ONE CITY.
@daconqueror101 Lol, you don't know much about european healthcare systems...
there are 50countries in europe, each one having a different kind of healthcare system and NONE have the kind of healthcare which you yanks rant about.
oh and there is public and private healthcare options too fucking retards...
@daconqueror101 : blablabla, blablabla ... At least we Europeans have that, and we know were our taxes are going... Most of Americans live in the shit, pay taxes also and have nothing of this. And you will never have because you can´t afford it. Your ass belong to the chinese now !!! If you have a fucking cancer my taxes will pay everything... Will yours ???
Yes America has a lot of administrative costs...because of all the regulations that the government created in the 70s. Why is it that HMOs never existed until the govt got involved???? Oh yeah, that's right, because the govt got involved. Let me get this straight, we are entitled to education and healthcare...what about clothes? Food? Homes? Jobs? Water? Electricity? Oh shit we are entitled to everything...oh shit we are communist now and that failed...so now what do we do? blame the rich!!!
@Darusdei I guess I have no idea about what having to sign a paper telling the govt where you are going every time you leave an apartment building is. I don't know that people had to stand in a long line in soviet russia to eat a piece of scrawny government chicken. I'm just an idiot who doesn't read history and doesn't talk to people who saw or experienced communism. I guess I don't know that women in cuba prostitute themselves to survive. But hey, they have great heathcare!...stfu asshole
$600,000,000,000 for 'defense' each year. Socialism for the arms industry. America is surrounded by 2 friendly nations & 2 vast oceans! What's wrong with this picture??? Republicans should ask about shrinking government with common sense.
The public health care system is crap. I tend to call public hospitals "guessing centre" While it's good that we don't leave people dying and poor old people get care so they can live a little longer. Personally i won't go anywhere near public hospitals. Private hospitals have much more professionals and they are more financially motivated to do a good job.
doctors are complaining here in holland that waiting times in ER's are getting to long.. They get up to two to three hours now when its really busy.....
As if Canadian and UK systems are the only foreign systems there are...
LOL long lines months of waiting. Where the hell do you have health care? At least they are not denied by the insurance and have to fight for life. YOU are a joke.
@etano1 ... wow, you are a damn liar ... in germany you wait 7-8 months for a hipreplacement, right ... and in the US you get it right away, IDIOT !!!! ... don't forget before you get a hipreplacement you have to go thru tests, they have to measure you etc., than they have to make the Prothesis this all takes a little bit time ... I know what I am talking about, because I had a hipreplacement in 2001 in Germany ... and I have not waited for anything here in Canada either ...
@ AllKnowingMind ... you don't have a cluse how the european healthcare system works, nor do you know how the canadian one does ... everything you know is based on hearsay, lies etc. Well at least I don't have to worry to lose my house or take out a loan just to pay my healthinsurance bill ... LONG LIFE SOCIALIZED / UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE !!! LOL If Canada is ever going to implement the US Healthcare system we will revolt, that's for sure ...
@NobbyBear08 And you aren't worth my time. Get a hold of the English language. And don't make stupid ASSumptions about what I do and don't know. Start talking real facts instead of spouting regular YouTube drivel.
uhhh excuseeee meeeee ... for my bad english, I was born German, which is also my native language, besides nobody is perfect ... not even you, ohhh sorry I totally forgot, some americans are infallible ... What real facts are you talking about, I would like to know ... if I can't get a loan than it's my fault? lol ... since when do I have to take out a loan to pay my health insurance bills, yeah you are pretty stupid ... !!!!
Where do you get your facts allknowingmind? Obviously not from a real life in the states. Maybe you had that silverspoon? You show me what you know and I can prove you are a idiot.
LOL you need to go back to school for a gramar lesson too. Let me give you a fact, I have worked two jobs since I was 13 years old I have had insurace from my government employer for the past 20 years. And let me tell you not one time in the last 20 years has my pay been raised higher than what my insurance was raised. I DO NOT get to pick my own DR. and I know people who go to Canada to have work done that cost half of what they have to pay here. Do a little looking around you.
wtf are you talking about? I never waited for anything important here in Canada. And actually there are 47 million people without insurance in the USA, so what are you talking about man... And 40%... i have never heard of a single case of that? Plese link something to say where you learned all these ''facts''
@etano1 : I you want to check my "poor quality" public hospital in Spain... Just search on google for "HOSPITAL DEL MAR BARCELONA". You should be carefull when you talk about realities you don´t know ...
@daconqueror101 : No dude, you´re wrong again... You American have nothing free ( and you wont have beause you can´t pay it ). And I rather be alive and kicking due to my public healthcare to face the chrisis, than be dead due to my money went to chinese to pay my external depths like you guys ...
@etano1 : I supose that you are the ignorant. You can come to Spain and I´ll show you ... My girlfriend got breast cancer. When she suspected and went to the doctor, she had mamogram in the same week and and the exams in just few days, and got curgery at the end of the same month. After that she went to several months of chemotherapy and radiotherapy. From the first visit to the doctor untill today, the expenses are ZERO !! NOTHING !! Including all the medicin !! Try to get info before you talk
woah woah woah woah relax dude. I may have a different opinion but no need to go hostile on me. I dont see why people can't just give me a different opinion than starting off with "you're a pig ignorant imbecil". Look some people don't have health care. Some people cannot afford health care that is all I am saying. Second I do not even remember saying Socialized Healthcare was better. You gotta calm down.
@slickrickdarula Health insurance =/= Health care. You can get health care without health insurance. Take out a loan. Ask for help from people. Sure, it sucks, but it beats nothing. And if you can't pay for the loan, then that's your fault. If you did everything in your power to be able to pay for it, and just hit some bad luck, that's what charities are for. Government can never replace human compassion.
My father died when i was 16, he suffered from leucimia. basically from ages 12 to 16 my father was unable to work, receiving frist cimiotherapy then a cocktail of anti rejection drugs. The 3 bone marrow transplants he received would not of been covered by any private insurance plan in the US, I know, I did the research, because the succes rate is lees then 50%.
But in your alternative. My father should have either let himself die or sell our house, put the entire family in debt to simply have a chance to live. I am very happy and proud to live in a society WITH ENOUGH HUMAN COMPASSION to care for its weak and for its sick. And not force them to go begging for hand outs from charity. Universal healthcare is human compassion.
The question i now ask of you is this: Should my mother, sister and I be stuck with debts because we tried to save my father? Should or society, let us deal with our own problems? or should we be COMPASSIONATE as a society and help the weak, the sick and the old. I have made my choice, and so has my society.
@slickrickdarula I love your false dichotomy. It's not "Government health care or you hate people." I just don't see why people who don't work should get my money for free. Take out a bank loan. Find a charity. Ask for donations. That's what I'm about. Maybe in Canada the whole donations/charity thing wouldn't have worked, but in the US it does.
so basically because my father was diagnosed with leucimia, as if that wasnt enough, i and the rest of my family need to go beg for charity? A bank loan?? do you know how much 4 years of medical treatment cost? In the 4 years i can only estimate its around 2 million dollars (200k for marrow transplants alone)for all the hospital time, drugs, doctors, bone marrow transplant. Our family now would be bankrupt and have lost our father? where is the human decency in that.
I live in Canada, we have true single payer socialised healthcare. What bs am I supposedly buying? The fact we make sure we all have decent health services?
And about who will pay: taxes pay, and btw we pay less per capita then the US, yet have higher life expectancy, less child mortality, less cronic health issues.
@slickrickdarula yea but america is fighting wars she shouldn't be fighting and bailing out banks it shouldnt be so ur healthcare-induced debt is possibly worse if ur country actually spent as foolishly as america did.
@eyeball334 But U gladly will pay for a militaristic state, won't U, Dick! it's OK for Americans to spend tax money on Big guns and mass destruction devices, but Health Care?? no way.
YOU are an IDIOT, sorry ... I don't have any sympathy for anyone who is against Social/Universal Healthcare ... which should be a HUMAN RIGHT and NOT a HUMAN PRIVILEG .... !!!!
And McCain that OLD FOOL, has NOT a DAMN FUCKING CLUE what he is talking about ... alone for spreading those lies I would slap him across his face and call him out ...
If it's a right, then nobody should have to pay anything. Oh wait. And even if it is a right, that means the government *protects* it, not *provides* it. Health insurance is a privilege. Health insurance is a product. If you want health care, you don't need insurance. You can pay for it yourself. Take out loans. Sure, it sucks, but it beats living with your disease.
@NobbyBear08 Government's job is not to protect us from ourselves. It's only job is to protect us from others. No where does that mean providing anything.
@Catamountfootball99 you can compare it with with what we have in belgium. Basically our social health system is not in public clinics but is rather in a socialised ensurance system. I pay 10 euro per 3 months for health care and hospitalisation ensurance. How much do you pay?
how is the United States health care good when a bunch of people cannot afford it. Unless the statistics are wrong and the guys who wrote those rankings are wrong then tell me what the real statistics are.
Of course I was speaking averages of earners making $80k -$120k who aren't incorporated.
My point was Americans claim they have a lower tax rate then that of Canadians, which is complete bullshit. One only need to do a little math at the end of the tax year to see how the american tax structure hides it's theifdom.
Here's an interesting fact: many throw around the AWESOME FIRST RATE AMERICAN HEALTH INDUSTRY. But guess how they got there? Medical research. Where is almost all of the medical research performed in the US? Research hospitals, NOT private companies.
So how are research hospitals funded? Mostly the NIH, a huge government run institution in Maryland.
Government? In MY medicine? Don't want none of that!
That doesn't sound right. The NIH budget is like 50 billion...drug companies spend much more than that on research. I'm not knocking the NIH, it's fantastic, but private companies certainly fund plenty of research done at academic centers (the money can come from anywhere in other words, it's the location of the research that doesn't change). now ask yourself, why is most research done at academic centers and not private labs?
You have no clue what you're talking about. You deny poroven facts. You spout "privatization" nonsense that has no factual basis. When I give you facts you spout opinion, but have no facts. You spout "privitization" nonsense when the facts are the opposite. Whatever the facts are, you deny them by weak, not factual opinion.
Viagra was discovered by accident by heart disease researchers, as are many of the block buster drugs. there is certainly lots of private money (for-profit and NFP) in cancer research, i don't know the ratio to gov spending, but you can't discount donations and Big Pharm research into oncology.
Yes, by listing Canadian innvations like pacemaker, myoelectric prostheses, lumpectomy, surgical treatment for epilepsy etc. which you probably think are American, but are actually Canadian.
Uhm, I didn't have an opinion either way, having never cared to know who specifically invented those things. Did you resurrect an 8 month old debate just to tell me all about your assumptions about how biased/blind/presumptuous I am? This is getting boring.
An appointment for what? Flu shots, check-ups, and other minor things. Brain tumor? Only a two week wait. Unless you're in that unlucky 13.6% that wait more than 3 months. Whoops. Was that supposed to be secret?
iI am Canadian, I have never waited for anything. I had a tumor found in my neck, was operated the day after the biopsy. From the time I called my doctor for a check up, to the time it was removed. Not even 72 hours had passed. Quit believeing the propaganda against public healthcare, here in Canada, even the right wing parties cant touch it with a pole because it is political suicide.
Because you guys have become dependent on the extortion of others. I say keep government out of my life. Big government is bad. Big government is the reason we separated from England. When you give government an inch, it steals a mile from you. When government starts providing something, people feel entitled to it and no longer feel the need to work for it.
No, Canada is 6th in the industrialized world for heath care. The US is #19th out of 19 nations in the industrialized world. You're #1 of 19 in price, and #19 of #19 in access, quality and fairness.
Access is actually quite high. Pittsburgh has more MRI machines than ALL of Canada.
Other statistics they use to measure quality are faulty. Life expectancy. That takes into account deaths due to accidents, and when you have more people (10 times as more), and 95% of them are in an area less than 2/3 the size, you're going to have more accidents.
98% of the Canadian physicians who went to the US have come back. They were wasting half their time with insurance companies instead of seeing patients, after a year or two, they RAN back to Canada and away from the nightmare of US insurance-run health care. Insurance company denial was a big reason for their coming back, not being used to having treatment they recommend being denied in Canada.
totally wrong. the ranking is based mainly on life expectancy, which is a flawed stat. if you control for violence and obesity (which are have nothing to do with healthcare), then our life span equals or slightly beats england's, according to multiple recent studies. i'm not sure how anyone who has seen healthcare in different countries can actually believe we're #37 in the world.
No, it's based on access, quality, and fairness, all of which the insurance takeover of health care leaves 1 out 3 Americans without adequate heath care. Even those who have health care get sucked into thinking what they have is good, even though those of us who have used US insurance-run health care and health care in other countries, know how poor the American insurance-run system is compared to what we experience in other countries.
the WHO used life span, responsiveness, finance fairness, performance, and expenditure as their main data points. unless you're seriously arguing that an uninsured american would be better off in saudi arabia, costa rica, etc., then i don't know what to tell you.
Considering that they're dead in the US and alive elsewhere, especially in Canada where you kooks claim people are dying in the streets (contrary the actual facts) that answers the question. People like you claim everyone else's health care is so bad, yet, it is in the US where thousands die and the places you claim where people die that they would be alive. That shows how bogus your claims are and where the real truth is. Those 45,000 Americans who die this year would be alive in Canada.
Even if, hypothetically, because your claims are false, there were a couple of horror stories in Canada each year, when you consider the 45,000 Americans who die each year (45,000 horror stories) plus the 100 or more other horror stories in the US, would be ALIVE in Canada, it shows where the REAL horror stories, that you never mention , really are....in the good old USA.
i never claimed healthcare in canada was bad. you can't claim those ppl would be alive, btw...the 45,000 is defined as excess mortality, not "ppl killed by lack of care", which means there's a statistical probability that they died too early. those studies weren't powered, however, to show why. to be clear, i'm not (and have never) argued our system is good. i'm trying to point out where the arguments on these boards are weak. we need good facts, not america bashing, to learn from this.
Lifespans are such an open system it's not even funny. For example, average lifespan take into account accidents. When you consider that USA has 10 times as many people in about a little less than the same space (because I'm not including Alaska and Hawaii, which have a combined population of 2 million), obviously you're going to have more accidents. Also societal views affect lifespans. We Americans love our cheeseburgers. That gives us more health problems.
It is exactly these unnecessary deaths from lack of adequate health care in the US, which ranks Canada #6 and the US #19 in preventable deaths actually prevented.
You can't interpret those studies like that. There was no actual chart review in that data...they simply added up how many ppl died of diabetes, heart disease, and other diseases and compared rates between countries. There are studies showing that these deaths are likely due to lifestyle. No studies have ever proven what you are saying. In fact we rank above average among OECD countries in preventative care according to the Institute of Medicine.
Particularly because the US is the ONLY nation in the industrialized world unfair enough to NOT provide heath care to ALL it's citizens. A large number of Americans have no better than third world health care. That's why 45,000 Americans die each year from lack of adequate health care. In Canada, with universal health care, they would be alive. In the US, with the insurance takeover of health care, they are DEAD.
So again, you can't prove that. I'm sure many Americans die needlessly without care, but the study that showed the 45,000 was based on other flawed research that originally showed 18,00 and, here's the important part, neither were powered to show that government programs would improve outcomes. Lifestyle and medical mistakes and hospital infections dwarf deaths due to lack of insurance. I'm not saying we shouldn't fix access, but claiming we're "killing 45,000/year" is a misinterpretation.
Ok, if you have a study, I would appreciate a link if you have it. As far as I've read, there are no studies that can actually show difference in outcome, since that would require a medical audit of huge numbers of patients. The preventative care studies, to my knowledge, only tabulate deaths due to disease, which only proves what we already know - americans have more heart disease, so we die more often of heart disease.
Ths diseases may be lifestyle related, many are genetic. My hypertension is genetic. I developed hypertension at 45. My mother developed hypertension at 45, my grandmother developed hypertension at 45.....see the pattern??? The COMPLICATIONS of these UNCONTROLLED conditions, once they occur, is totally a function of Americans being denied access to physicians to help them control them due to the insurance takeover of health care.
Everyone else in the industrialized world has access to physicians to assist in controlling. these conditions, so these people do not die in nearly the number that die from lack of affordable universal health care in the US, because insurance company profit means more in the US than these people's lives.
Let me try this another way. I totally agree that we need to increase access. My problem is that your arguments are based around a notion that profit is evil, etc. and that it is killing ppl. I'm trying to show that there are other factors that are independent of our healthcare system. If we just scrap our system and go Canadian, we might exacerbate other problems (cost inflation, lack of new drug research) for the sake of access, which may not improve mortality above what we have.
Funny that you say that whan you oay TWICE as much fior health care now than anoy other nation in the industrialized world, and that in Canada, both small business and big business are thriving because they do not have to pay health care costs for their employees, since it is paid by the government and costs far less than in the US. Per capita, there are two Canadian discoveries, inventions and innovations for every Americans one.
The reason that business go to other nations and not to the US is because they have to pay health costs in the US that they do not in any other indiustrialized world. We have business in Cnada that you could have had in the US if you had single payer health care too, but you lost them because your health costs for businesses are so high. Per Capita, there are two Canadian discoveries, innovationsand inventions for every one in the US.
again i'd like to read your source on the innovation comment if you have one. in response, i agree...we clearly pay too much. how that would change with universal care isn't clear...private or public, you need a well-run system to combat cost inflation. i'm all for any system that will do that. unfortunately for us, none of the current proposals will do that. neither would superimposing a canadian system on top of ours.
If you're truly interested in sources then the youtube comment section isn't for you. That's why rightwing folks love it because they can go off without any backup or proof.
It would change with universal single payer because at least 90% of health care dollars would go toward health care. Currently, insurance companies remove 41% of premiums for their own use and only pay out 59% of premiums for health care. To cover everyone at 90% payout would cost much less that insurance-run health care costs only paying out 59% as they do with the insurance takeover of health care now.
in a vacuum, that's true. our system, unfortunately, wasn't "taken over", it evolved with the insurance companies. we can't just dismantle them, politically or legally. even if we could, americans wouldn't tolerate a system that rationed via the government. i'm aware of your time in the US from earlier comments, but you still shouldn't be assuming that i think what i think because i'm blind or brainwashed. when you have a constructive solution, i'll respond differently.
Well, it's taken over by insurance companies as much as health care will be "taken over" by government with health reform. Republicans always talk about the "government takeover of healthcare", well, if that's true then there has been an "insurance takeover of health care" up until now. Insurance pays now. Government pays with the public option, just like an insurance company. If one is a "takeover" then the other is a "takeover". Get the picture?
You would have a far lower mortality if you had universal health care. There are several people that I've talked to on these pages who are LEAVING the US to live in Canada because they can't afford health care in the US. If you ever took off your blinders, you would see that the US is losing LOTS - both businesses and people to nations that have universal health care with much lower health costs than exist right now in the US. health reform, especially single payer would only lower costs.
If I took off my blinders? No offense, but I don't need a Canadian to remind me what my healthcare system is doing to the country. The problem is that none of the universal care plans are actually projected to lower costs, and that's a big deal. Obviously the universal access is great, but since we can't actually find evidence that it will decrease mortality, it's not clear that universal access is worth bankrupting all federal discretionary spending.
The next year in Canada, based on the same amount of income, I paid $1800 a month for taxes, which INCLUDED health care, no copays, no deductables. $3000 a month with insurance-run in the US, $1800 a month with single payer in Canada. With single payer I had $1200 a month more in my pocket than I had with the insurance-run system in the US the year before. That means single payer cost ($1800/$3000) about 60% of what insurance-run costs.
in principle, you argument sounds right. but our experience here hasn't been completely the same. medicare is growing much faster than inflation, and that is including the vast amount of private subsidization it indirectly receives from private insurance (hospitals charge private insurers more to cover their medicare loses). we would pay less with "medicare for all", but we wouldn't see canada's savings.
No, because they haven't considered single payer, which is what really cuts costs because, as I said at least 90% of the pool goes for health care costs, not 59% as happens with the insurance takeover of health care now. Anthony Weiner and Dennis Kucinich have both introduced single payer bills but neither has been voted on yet.
i don't doubt you're correct. but single payer won't pass congress ever. you can't forcibly break the insurance companies contracts and expect to be re-elected.
I'm correct that's exactly what happened in Canada since 1962 when single payer began in Canada, before the US even had Medicare, which Republican idiots said would turn the US into a socialist nation in 1965, with that "socialist" President Lyndon Johnson.
By eliminating insurance companies altogether (except for viison care, dental care and prescription drugs) and using taxes to create a smaller pool, but universal coverage that used to go to the massive insurance pool (of which they swallowed 41%) the amount going into the pool from taxes is much less that you used to pay for insurance. I paid $3000 a month for taxes+health insurance+deductables+copays my last year in the US.
Unfortunately, you're in the minority. When I lived in the US I saw lots of arrogant, narrow minded, navel gazing Americans, who tore down all their Allies(Canada, Britain, France, and all those....) every chance they got. Of course Bush did the same, as McCain did here. That makes us hate Americans, even though we know some, like you, are actually educated and informed.
Yea, I know. I was expatting it for a bit, and now that I am back in America. I really don't like it here. But its hard to tell my parents this because well they think this is the best place to ever exist in ever!!. Well atleast my dad thinks like that. He's never even been an expat before. HE thinks serving time in the marines in saudi arabia during the iraq war was the same experience I had when I was studying in Japan. No way in hell are they the same.
So you want insurance-run health care then? You wouldn't want that insurance company bureaucrat who stands between you and your physician to lose his bonus for denying you health care, would you? You'll never apply for Medicare either, on principle, since it's government funded health care. You may as well give up government funded police departments and fire deparments too. Don;t forget government funded public libraries, never set foot in one again, if you can even read a book that is.
Actually, I will apply for Medicare only because I'm forced to pay into it. If I could get all my money back that I paid into it (adjusting for inflation) then yes, I wouldn't apply, but otherwise you're asking me to cut my benefits without cutting my losses, which is quite idiotic for someone to cut benefits and not losses.
It's ignorant fucks like you that keep insurance companies in business. Why do you think ins co's are able to make so much money, you dumb fuck? It's because insurance is mandated by the gov for employers. Do you really think ins co's are out of the loop when it comes to gov regulations? You fucking moron, they write the god damn laws! Public safety has nothing to do with me giving you money for health ins, you douche bag. Try educating yourself you fucking asshole.
I'd never go back to insurance-run health carein the US. I have access to a universal single payer system in Canada which is far better than insurance-ruin health care. I would never go back to the inurance takeover of health care in the US. Insurance-run health care sucks, ans I have far better access and quality of health care in Canada than the insurance-run and rationed health care I had in the US.
Great. I'm not interested in what Canadians do or want. I don't live there, and I don't plan on moving there anytime soon. I'm American, and I plan on staying here. I'm not happy with the way gov has interfered in health care here, and more gov interference is not the answer. the answer is in the free market, not in a gov managed system. HMO's didn't work, mandated employer coverage didn't work, and anything else the gov has tried has been a complete and utter failure. It's insane.
Blather. Nonsense. Irrelevant. What has Somalia got to do with health care in the US? Irrelevant. So you care about what other successful countries are doing and we are not. Blather. Free markets can't exist for the same reasons humans are not perfect robots. Nonsense.
NHS is not free....Good luck with a chronic ailment with NHS hope you have a two, three or four years for treatment. Don't say it doesn't happen many newspaper articles that would say different..unless you think those are made up as well
It's in the US that people with diabetes and hypertension and chronic conditions like that are nit able to afford to see a physicain to get those conditions under control until that lack of control ends up in disabling of killing complications: heart conditions, blindness, kidney failure, stroke, all because the uS is the only industrialized nation that FAILS to provide health care for ALL its citizens, In EVERY other nation. these complictaions would be far fewer and far less.
OK, i'll try again. Clearly, we would do better with more access. But you keep saying things like "ALL because the us doesn't have universal coverage". i'm pointing out that there are numerous studies showing that coverage isn't even close to being the main reason. we ignore the main reasons at our peril.
Because he has to pay into it. Why pay for something you aren't going to use? I can guarantee you that if he could not pay into it and not benefit, he wouldn't.
Slash because your forced to. And if you want to pay for someone else's healthcare, then by all means do so on your own free will. Don't force me to. Let me do it with my free will too.
Don't force me to subsidize your roads, police, fire protection, health safety standards, or military then. Better yet just move to liberation Paradise Somalia since such like minded people have made it into a mecca of freedom.
It's pretty just since that's the whole idea behind taxes. Nothing is for free.
People yelling against healthcare reform are like the chicks in a max hardcore film. They are smiling and happy they are where they are. But in the end are still getting fucked in the ass with a table leg.
No, not everyone. People who can afford their own, better, private insurance still pay into UHC, and they don't benefit from it. The only people who benefit from UHC are those who don't pay into it. Everyone else gets to be, as you say, "like the chicks in a max hardcore film".
And it's the other way around: You pay because you benefit, not you benefit because you pay.
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US healthcare is the most overpriced and the most inefficient among developed countries.
In a profit orientated system like the US one it's not profitable for the doctor and the pharma companies to cure the patient using the most efficient medical procedures but the most expensive one and to perform as many as possible unnecessary procedures just to increase the bill
In a profit orientated system doctors aren't paid to keep patients healthy.The more sick people are the more doctors earn.
SuperThe86 2 weeks ago
John McCain"You'll love Canada and England" he says sarcastically. Mr. McCain, have you received government heath care since being in the military probably 20 years old or so?In other words have you had it almost all your life?Then why the fuck would you preach to others that they shouldn't have what you were given by the US government.You fucking hypocrites make me sick but at least I'm covered in Canada
tindallpe 5 months ago
Socialized healthcare sucks big time.
themenaceanish 7 months ago
@themenaceanish not as much as for profit healthcare.
yomamasapeach 5 months ago
universal healthcare allso lowers the crime rates. the desperation among the poor will go down and they will be able to consatrate on education.
gooddarkjedi 7 months ago
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@Llortsaccount Oh and thank you for the childish insults on my wall?!
Llortsaccount (2 hours ago)
communist fag
Llortsaccount (2 hours ago)
canadian piece of shit
Are you 7 years old? Would explain a lot about your behavior. So again I ask. Counter argument? Retort? Anything but childish insults and ''bad words''? Ok ty.
slickrickdarula 7 months ago
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@Llortsaccount Oh so you are a racist on top of being an idiot?
slickrickdarula 7 months ago
@Llortsaccount you must be a fucking idiot that thinks labels are more important then results. Reality and results are not liberal or conservative peabrain. Any argument you would like to bring? Any retort? Any fact I gave out you do not like? No?
slickrickdarula 7 months ago
Can someone explain what insurance companies actually do in increasing health care?
Ayokolomo 8 months ago
@Ayokolomo They ague with billing departments at Hospitals.They require detailed paperwork in order for them to scutinize ways to deny coverage. That causes a lot of administration rather than having more of a set "Fee For Service"with lesser variation They deny payments forcing individuals to pay.They pay shareholder dividends which have no input whatsoever into delivery .They have administration departments that are huge because of the complexities they have set up in order to deny coverage
tindallpe 5 months ago
Considering that McCain chose the moronic and redneckish Sarah Palin, he has no business talking down health systems that work a hell of a lot better.
hectorbolshevik 1 year ago
Food is a profound need of people too.
Let's get the Government to cover that cost as well.
Vacations are good for you too!
Why not have the Government pay for holiday time for everyone?
356pla 1 year ago
@356pla Actually, we have something like that in Germany.It`s called "Kur" and gets paid for by health Insurance.Concerning the Food, there are Food-stamps in the U.S.
ReezeGoingSenseless 9 months ago
@ReezeGoingSenseless And how long can we expect to be able to pillage one neighbour for the profit of another?
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla "Pillage" is quite an Exaggeration.Since everyone pays for it, the costs stay somewhat low overall. seem to.In Fact, Health Insurance Companys made a significant surplus this Year.Concerning the Foodstamps, these cost very little overall.
Besides, we have a way smaller (and somewhat more efficient, I may say) military Budget than the U.S.
ReezeGoingSenseless 9 months ago
@ReezeGoingSenseless You are free to say it. It doesn't make it true. Have another sip.
...and I've always liked the impact of words. Pillage seems an accurate enough description of this kind of back door theft.
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla The principle "The more People pay for it, the less each one has to pay" applies.Which is a simple fact and Works.
ReezeGoingSenseless 9 months ago
@ReezeGoingSenseless It virtually always stops working once you use force to accomplish that collective action.
'From each according to their ability, to each according to need.'
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla There is no Force.If you wish to, you can just get private Insurance, much like the States do it.For most Folks however, it is simply cheaper to pay in the big Pool and get State-supported Healthcare from a Company of your Choice.No Force, no nothing.Just a simple, working System.
ReezeGoingSenseless 9 months ago
@ReezeGoingSenseless If that were true then you would be correct. The U.S. food stamp program is not in that category, as you know.
If the group fund is ..."to pay in the big Pool and get State-supported Healthcare " ... unless that STATE FUNDING is all voluntary donations for that purpose, and not imposed taxation, then you're on safe ground there too. Are you maintaining that is the case?
I'm Canadian. I'd prefer your system to ours.
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla It is the Case indeed.Although it is not from Donations, but a State-budget, which exists since 1883.This "Pool" made a surplus as well.It`s basically a Win-Win Situation for People who could not pay anything Extra.We are the only Nation that maintains a Dual-System, letting People the choice between required Treatment only or fancy Healthcare due to extra Payments by the Customer.No extra Costs for the State, except that small Budget.
ReezeGoingSenseless 9 months ago
@ReezeGoingSenseless ANd how far in history do you need to go back to reach the date when your country changed this system to allow for opting out of using the state 'pool' of funds? And why was that change made?
Those who use private insurance for their healthcare, do their taxes continue to go into this fund they have rejected the use of? I plan on doing some research when I find the time so I'd appreciate a knowledgeable answer. Don't just parrot the mainstream media. Check for yourself.
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla Nop, they dont.If you choose a private Sickness-fund (a health insurance company), you dont have to pay anything at the State.As for how far this goes back, I have no Idea.
ReezeGoingSenseless 9 months ago
@ReezeGoingSenseless It took very little time and research to reveal you are either trying to deceive me, or can't be bothered to find the truth for yourself. Given that, you are not worth my time. Your system is certainly an improvement over mine, but not as faultless as you've suggested. It remains unjust and discriminatory. Given how poorly informed you evidently are, and your lack of inclination to find truth revealed in your closing statement, I won't bother discussing it further with U.
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla Because a hospital bill can cost thousands of dollars. A typical middle income family in the US will be financially devastated. Insurance companies aren't helping, these health insurance companies even pay experts to research ways for them to avoid paying out, in order to increase profits. Not to mention all of the red tape and the instances of fraud on part of these companies. As for food, anyone can buy it, rich or poor. Food is equally important as healthcare, but far easier to get.
Centennial107 9 months ago
@Centennial107 News Bulletin: Governments create red tape too. Government will ration available dollars too. Food would be more expensive if there were only one company left to buy it from. Monopoly is bad fro the customers what ever you are offering for sale. Food is available from many sources.
356pla 9 months ago
@356pla In the US, healthcare can be used from more than one company, and yet look at how much it can cost. In Canada or the UK, all the healthcare is provided by the state, and those Canucks or Brits don't have to pay out of their pockets, only through taxes. That's sort of like a monopoly, except that this one is run by the state.
Centennial107 9 months ago
@Centennial107 All monopolies require the threat of force to maintain them. All sustained monopoly is either backed by an organization willing to resort to criminal action, or by one that controls what is defined as criminal action.
All healthcare is not provided by the state in Canada or the U.K. It is provided by private individuals and corporations working within organizations regulated by, and paid through (not by) the state.
356pla 9 months ago
usa, there is lot of things that you are good at. but i think you shuld look europes example in health care.
gooddarkjedi 1 year ago
McCain attacks anything that might help the common people. McCain pretends to be a "maverick," but supports granting amnesty to illegal aliens. Canadian healthcare is great. The problem is it wouldn't work in the U.S. because we have such a large population, including illegal aliens. Canada's population is about the same size as the state of California.
hectorsalina 1 year ago
If single payer is so good, then why did the Netherlands get rid of it? And why do they have the best healthcare in Europe? Let's hear it guys. Let me hear all the bullshit you want to throw at me. Let me hear all the, "oh I get a free lunch" speeches from you people. Nothing is free. You can't afford US healthcare? If the govt didn't prohibit you from buying it across state lines, it would be cheaper. If you didn't have to pay thousands in income taxes, you could use that money.
daconqueror101 1 year ago
And one more thing, why is it that my parents need to buy two health insurances for me? I have two health insurances for two different cities. Do you know why? BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T ALLOW ME TO USE ONE IN MORE THAN ONE CITY.
It's like talking to a bunch of vegetables.
daconqueror101 1 year ago
@daconqueror101 Lol, you don't know much about european healthcare systems...
there are 50countries in europe, each one having a different kind of healthcare system and NONE have the kind of healthcare which you yanks rant about.
oh and there is public and private healthcare options too fucking retards...
Darusdei 1 year ago
@daconqueror101 : blablabla, blablabla ... At least we Europeans have that, and we know were our taxes are going... Most of Americans live in the shit, pay taxes also and have nothing of this. And you will never have because you can´t afford it. Your ass belong to the chinese now !!! If you have a fucking cancer my taxes will pay everything... Will yours ???
AngeloBGC 1 year ago 4
Yes America has a lot of administrative costs...because of all the regulations that the government created in the 70s. Why is it that HMOs never existed until the govt got involved???? Oh yeah, that's right, because the govt got involved. Let me get this straight, we are entitled to education and healthcare...what about clothes? Food? Homes? Jobs? Water? Electricity? Oh shit we are entitled to everything...oh shit we are communist now and that failed...so now what do we do? blame the rich!!!
daconqueror101 1 year ago
@daconqueror101 Blame your education because it seems you don't have a clue what communism is...
Darusdei 1 year ago
@Darusdei I guess I have no idea about what having to sign a paper telling the govt where you are going every time you leave an apartment building is. I don't know that people had to stand in a long line in soviet russia to eat a piece of scrawny government chicken. I'm just an idiot who doesn't read history and doesn't talk to people who saw or experienced communism. I guess I don't know that women in cuba prostitute themselves to survive. But hey, they have great heathcare!...stfu asshole
daconqueror101 1 year ago
What exactly means "Single Payer health care"??
Mamakayi 1 year ago
$600,000,000,000 for 'defense' each year. Socialism for the arms industry. America is surrounded by 2 friendly nations & 2 vast oceans! What's wrong with this picture??? Republicans should ask about shrinking government with common sense.
SIMKINETICS 1 year ago
The public health care system is crap. I tend to call public hospitals "guessing centre" While it's good that we don't leave people dying and poor old people get care so they can live a little longer. Personally i won't go anywhere near public hospitals. Private hospitals have much more professionals and they are more financially motivated to do a good job.
slayer66616 1 year ago
I dont get this video. I forgot all about Mccains comment on single payer. He was against single payer, but now the repubs WANT single payer!
kmcl11 1 year ago
I can't afford to pay for healthcare if I was in the US but i aint worriying becuase I live in the UK.
rday18 1 year ago
doctors are complaining here in holland that waiting times in ER's are getting to long.. They get up to two to three hours now when its really busy.....
As if Canadian and UK systems are the only foreign systems there are...
BlueDoc1984 1 year ago
LOL long lines months of waiting. Where the hell do you have health care? At least they are not denied by the insurance and have to fight for life. YOU are a joke.
dwjeschk 2 years ago
@etano1 ... wow, you are a damn liar ... in germany you wait 7-8 months for a hipreplacement, right ... and in the US you get it right away, IDIOT !!!! ... don't forget before you get a hipreplacement you have to go thru tests, they have to measure you etc., than they have to make the Prothesis this all takes a little bit time ... I know what I am talking about, because I had a hipreplacement in 2001 in Germany ... and I have not waited for anything here in Canada either ...
NobbyBear08 2 years ago 3
@ AllKnowingMind ... you don't have a cluse how the european healthcare system works, nor do you know how the canadian one does ... everything you know is based on hearsay, lies etc. Well at least I don't have to worry to lose my house or take out a loan just to pay my healthinsurance bill ... LONG LIFE SOCIALIZED / UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE !!! LOL If Canada is ever going to implement the US Healthcare system we will revolt, that's for sure ...
NobbyBear08 2 years ago 3
@NobbyBear08 And you aren't worth my time. Get a hold of the English language. And don't make stupid ASSumptions about what I do and don't know. Start talking real facts instead of spouting regular YouTube drivel.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
uhhh excuseeee meeeee ... for my bad english, I was born German, which is also my native language, besides nobody is perfect ... not even you, ohhh sorry I totally forgot, some americans are infallible ... What real facts are you talking about, I would like to know ... if I can't get a loan than it's my fault? lol ... since when do I have to take out a loan to pay my health insurance bills, yeah you are pretty stupid ... !!!!
NobbyBear08 2 years ago 2
Where do you get your facts allknowingmind? Obviously not from a real life in the states. Maybe you had that silverspoon? You show me what you know and I can prove you are a idiot.
dwjeschk 2 years ago
LOL ... good one ....
NobbyBear08 2 years ago
LOL you need to go back to school for a gramar lesson too. Let me give you a fact, I have worked two jobs since I was 13 years old I have had insurace from my government employer for the past 20 years. And let me tell you not one time in the last 20 years has my pay been raised higher than what my insurance was raised. I DO NOT get to pick my own DR. and I know people who go to Canada to have work done that cost half of what they have to pay here. Do a little looking around you.
dwjeschk 2 years ago
read from bottom up, sorry if my comment was long
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
wtf are you talking about? I never waited for anything important here in Canada. And actually there are 47 million people without insurance in the USA, so what are you talking about man... And 40%... i have never heard of a single case of that? Plese link something to say where you learned all these ''facts''
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
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Catamountfootball99 2 years ago
Cite your source please? I call bull shit on this.
SparwoodApple 2 years ago 2
@etano1 : I you want to check my "poor quality" public hospital in Spain... Just search on google for "HOSPITAL DEL MAR BARCELONA". You should be carefull when you talk about realities you don´t know ...
AngeloBGC 2 years ago 15
@AngeloBGC and now Spain is bankrupt. But hey, free healthcare is all that matters.
daconqueror101 1 year ago
@daconqueror101 : No dude, you´re wrong again... You American have nothing free ( and you wont have beause you can´t pay it ). And I rather be alive and kicking due to my public healthcare to face the chrisis, than be dead due to my money went to chinese to pay my external depths like you guys ...
AngeloBGC 1 year ago
@etano1 : I supose that you are the ignorant. You can come to Spain and I´ll show you ... My girlfriend got breast cancer. When she suspected and went to the doctor, she had mamogram in the same week and and the exams in just few days, and got curgery at the end of the same month. After that she went to several months of chemotherapy and radiotherapy. From the first visit to the doctor untill today, the expenses are ZERO !! NOTHING !! Including all the medicin !! Try to get info before you talk
AngeloBGC 2 years ago 4
The NHS makes me proud to be British.
SirRunnerBean 2 years ago 4
woah woah woah woah relax dude. I may have a different opinion but no need to go hostile on me. I dont see why people can't just give me a different opinion than starting off with "you're a pig ignorant imbecil". Look some people don't have health care. Some people cannot afford health care that is all I am saying. Second I do not even remember saying Socialized Healthcare was better. You gotta calm down.
biohazard22791 2 years ago
i dont believe in socialistic health care, (universal) but i believe ppl should be able to buy a LOW cost health plan
Catamountfootball99 2 years ago
ill reply here cuz you deleted your other post.
so only 25 million uninsured in US. Great job for the richest country on earth! Only has roughly the population of Canada without medical care.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
@slickrickdarula Health insurance =/= Health care. You can get health care without health insurance. Take out a loan. Ask for help from people. Sure, it sucks, but it beats nothing. And if you can't pay for the loan, then that's your fault. If you did everything in your power to be able to pay for it, and just hit some bad luck, that's what charities are for. Government can never replace human compassion.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
@ Allknowingmind it has here in Canada
to give another example:
My father died when i was 16, he suffered from leucimia. basically from ages 12 to 16 my father was unable to work, receiving frist cimiotherapy then a cocktail of anti rejection drugs. The 3 bone marrow transplants he received would not of been covered by any private insurance plan in the US, I know, I did the research, because the succes rate is lees then 50%.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
@ Allknowingmind continued
But in your alternative. My father should have either let himself die or sell our house, put the entire family in debt to simply have a chance to live. I am very happy and proud to live in a society WITH ENOUGH HUMAN COMPASSION to care for its weak and for its sick. And not force them to go begging for hand outs from charity. Universal healthcare is human compassion.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
@Allknowingmind conclusion
The question i now ask of you is this: Should my mother, sister and I be stuck with debts because we tried to save my father? Should or society, let us deal with our own problems? or should we be COMPASSIONATE as a society and help the weak, the sick and the old. I have made my choice, and so has my society.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
@slickrickdarula I love your false dichotomy. It's not "Government health care or you hate people." I just don't see why people who don't work should get my money for free. Take out a bank loan. Find a charity. Ask for donations. That's what I'm about. Maybe in Canada the whole donations/charity thing wouldn't have worked, but in the US it does.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
so basically because my father was diagnosed with leucimia, as if that wasnt enough, i and the rest of my family need to go beg for charity? A bank loan?? do you know how much 4 years of medical treatment cost? In the 4 years i can only estimate its around 2 million dollars (200k for marrow transplants alone)for all the hospital time, drugs, doctors, bone marrow transplant. Our family now would be bankrupt and have lost our father? where is the human decency in that.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago 2
@slickrickdarula somebody is going to have to pay for it. if not you then who???
nothing is free.
and this entire video i just laughed my ass off. it's just funny how extremist's can put this kind of bs up and people actually buy it.
eyeball334 2 years ago
I live in Canada, we have true single payer socialised healthcare. What bs am I supposedly buying? The fact we make sure we all have decent health services?
And about who will pay: taxes pay, and btw we pay less per capita then the US, yet have higher life expectancy, less child mortality, less cronic health issues.
And Canada is not bankrupt, the US is.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago 26
@slickrickdarula yea but america is fighting wars she shouldn't be fighting and bailing out banks it shouldnt be so ur healthcare-induced debt is possibly worse if ur country actually spent as foolishly as america did.
emoweixian 4 months ago
@eyeball334 you would be surprised how much money the milk product taxt produces to pay for health care lol
gilbert4321 1 year ago
@eyeball334 But U gladly will pay for a militaristic state, won't U, Dick! it's OK for Americans to spend tax money on Big guns and mass destruction devices, but Health Care?? no way.
Pricks!
goiaoia 1 year ago 10
YOU are an IDIOT, sorry ... I don't have any sympathy for anyone who is against Social/Universal Healthcare ... which should be a HUMAN RIGHT and NOT a HUMAN PRIVILEG .... !!!!
And McCain that OLD FOOL, has NOT a DAMN FUCKING CLUE what he is talking about ... alone for spreading those lies I would slap him across his face and call him out ...
NobbyBear08 2 years ago 4
If it's a right, then nobody should have to pay anything. Oh wait. And even if it is a right, that means the government *protects* it, not *provides* it. Health insurance is a privilege. Health insurance is a product. If you want health care, you don't need insurance. You can pay for it yourself. Take out loans. Sure, it sucks, but it beats living with your disease.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
@NobbyBear08 Government's job is not to protect us from ourselves. It's only job is to protect us from others. No where does that mean providing anything.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
@Catamountfootball99 you can compare it with with what we have in belgium. Basically our social health system is not in public clinics but is rather in a socialised ensurance system. I pay 10 euro per 3 months for health care and hospitalisation ensurance. How much do you pay?
lleuwelynn 2 years ago
how is the United States health care good when a bunch of people cannot afford it. Unless the statistics are wrong and the guys who wrote those rankings are wrong then tell me what the real statistics are.
biohazard22791 2 years ago 2
The year before I retired in Canada, my net tax (federal tax+provincial tax) was 20.6% on $55,000
murphyj87 2 years ago
Nice... I'm glad to be back too
Of course I was speaking averages of earners making $80k -$120k who aren't incorporated.
My point was Americans claim they have a lower tax rate then that of Canadians, which is complete bullshit. One only need to do a little math at the end of the tax year to see how the american tax structure hides it's theifdom.
Pleblian 2 years ago
Here's an interesting fact: many throw around the AWESOME FIRST RATE AMERICAN HEALTH INDUSTRY. But guess how they got there? Medical research. Where is almost all of the medical research performed in the US? Research hospitals, NOT private companies.
So how are research hospitals funded? Mostly the NIH, a huge government run institution in Maryland.
Government? In MY medicine? Don't want none of that!
numnunums 2 years ago
That doesn't sound right. The NIH budget is like 50 billion...drug companies spend much more than that on research. I'm not knocking the NIH, it's fantastic, but private companies certainly fund plenty of research done at academic centers (the money can come from anywhere in other words, it's the location of the research that doesn't change). now ask yourself, why is most research done at academic centers and not private labs?
random63x 2 years ago
You have no clue what you're talking about. You deny poroven facts. You spout "privatization" nonsense that has no factual basis. When I give you facts you spout opinion, but have no facts. You spout "privitization" nonsense when the facts are the opposite. Whatever the facts are, you deny them by weak, not factual opinion.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Sure if you count enlarging your penis a break through of medical advancement.
Remind me again who's working on curing cancer. Certainly not private.
numnunums 2 years ago
Viagra was discovered by accident by heart disease researchers, as are many of the block buster drugs. there is certainly lots of private money (for-profit and NFP) in cancer research, i don't know the ratio to gov spending, but you can't discount donations and Big Pharm research into oncology.
random63x 2 years ago
the research that brought us Viagra and 17 different female oral contraception. Male and female hormones. Addictive pain killers and mood pills.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
huh?
random63x 2 years ago
On a per capita basis there are two Canadian medical innovations, inventions and discoveries for every American one.
murphyj87 2 years ago
that's interesting, do you have a source? last i looked, the USA was better in patents/capita, but i guess those are different stats.
random63x 2 years ago
Yes, by listing Canadian innvations like pacemaker, myoelectric prostheses, lumpectomy, surgical treatment for epilepsy etc. which you probably think are American, but are actually Canadian.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Uhm, I didn't have an opinion either way, having never cared to know who specifically invented those things. Did you resurrect an 8 month old debate just to tell me all about your assumptions about how biased/blind/presumptuous I am? This is getting boring.
random63x 2 years ago
I can get an appointment within 3 hours to 48 hours here in Canada.
murphyj87 2 years ago
An appointment for what? Flu shots, check-ups, and other minor things. Brain tumor? Only a two week wait. Unless you're in that unlucky 13.6% that wait more than 3 months. Whoops. Was that supposed to be secret?
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
iI am Canadian, I have never waited for anything. I had a tumor found in my neck, was operated the day after the biopsy. From the time I called my doctor for a check up, to the time it was removed. Not even 72 hours had passed. Quit believeing the propaganda against public healthcare, here in Canada, even the right wing parties cant touch it with a pole because it is political suicide.
slickrickdarula 2 years ago
Because you guys have become dependent on the extortion of others. I say keep government out of my life. Big government is bad. Big government is the reason we separated from England. When you give government an inch, it steals a mile from you. When government starts providing something, people feel entitled to it and no longer feel the need to work for it.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
No, Canada is 6th in the industrialized world for heath care. The US is #19th out of 19 nations in the industrialized world. You're #1 of 19 in price, and #19 of #19 in access, quality and fairness.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Access is actually quite high. Pittsburgh has more MRI machines than ALL of Canada.
Other statistics they use to measure quality are faulty. Life expectancy. That takes into account deaths due to accidents, and when you have more people (10 times as more), and 95% of them are in an area less than 2/3 the size, you're going to have more accidents.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
98% of the Canadian physicians who went to the US have come back. They were wasting half their time with insurance companies instead of seeing patients, after a year or two, they RAN back to Canada and away from the nightmare of US insurance-run health care. Insurance company denial was a big reason for their coming back, not being used to having treatment they recommend being denied in Canada.
murphyj87 2 years ago
98% of Canadian physicians went back to Canada? Source?
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
The Canadian Health Services Foundation says that 200-300 Canadian physicians who had spent spent a few years practising elsewhere return every year
murphyj87 2 years ago
Somewhat better than #37 for those with insurance and money, worse than #37 for the uninsured, the underinsured, the ones denied insurance.
murphyj87 2 years ago
totally wrong. the ranking is based mainly on life expectancy, which is a flawed stat. if you control for violence and obesity (which are have nothing to do with healthcare), then our life span equals or slightly beats england's, according to multiple recent studies. i'm not sure how anyone who has seen healthcare in different countries can actually believe we're #37 in the world.
random63x 2 years ago
No, it's based on access, quality, and fairness, all of which the insurance takeover of health care leaves 1 out 3 Americans without adequate heath care. Even those who have health care get sucked into thinking what they have is good, even though those of us who have used US insurance-run health care and health care in other countries, know how poor the American insurance-run system is compared to what we experience in other countries.
murphyj87 2 years ago
the WHO used life span, responsiveness, finance fairness, performance, and expenditure as their main data points. unless you're seriously arguing that an uninsured american would be better off in saudi arabia, costa rica, etc., then i don't know what to tell you.
random63x 2 years ago
Considering that they're dead in the US and alive elsewhere, especially in Canada where you kooks claim people are dying in the streets (contrary the actual facts) that answers the question. People like you claim everyone else's health care is so bad, yet, it is in the US where thousands die and the places you claim where people die that they would be alive. That shows how bogus your claims are and where the real truth is. Those 45,000 Americans who die this year would be alive in Canada.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Even if, hypothetically, because your claims are false, there were a couple of horror stories in Canada each year, when you consider the 45,000 Americans who die each year (45,000 horror stories) plus the 100 or more other horror stories in the US, would be ALIVE in Canada, it shows where the REAL horror stories, that you never mention , really are....in the good old USA.
murphyj87 2 years ago
i never claimed healthcare in canada was bad. you can't claim those ppl would be alive, btw...the 45,000 is defined as excess mortality, not "ppl killed by lack of care", which means there's a statistical probability that they died too early. those studies weren't powered, however, to show why. to be clear, i'm not (and have never) argued our system is good. i'm trying to point out where the arguments on these boards are weak. we need good facts, not america bashing, to learn from this.
random63x 2 years ago
Just check out cost of Health Care vs lifespans. We spend the most yet we're 13th in how long we live. Turkey lives as long as we do.
Fucking Turkey.
numnunums 2 years ago
haha ya...maybe we should import turkey's healthcare system. or we can stop eating so many burgers.
random63x 2 years ago
Lifespans are such an open system it's not even funny. For example, average lifespan take into account accidents. When you consider that USA has 10 times as many people in about a little less than the same space (because I'm not including Alaska and Hawaii, which have a combined population of 2 million), obviously you're going to have more accidents. Also societal views affect lifespans. We Americans love our cheeseburgers. That gives us more health problems.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
It is exactly these unnecessary deaths from lack of adequate health care in the US, which ranks Canada #6 and the US #19 in preventable deaths actually prevented.
murphyj87 2 years ago
You can't interpret those studies like that. There was no actual chart review in that data...they simply added up how many ppl died of diabetes, heart disease, and other diseases and compared rates between countries. There are studies showing that these deaths are likely due to lifestyle. No studies have ever proven what you are saying. In fact we rank above average among OECD countries in preventative care according to the Institute of Medicine.
random63x 2 years ago
Particularly because the US is the ONLY nation in the industrialized world unfair enough to NOT provide heath care to ALL it's citizens. A large number of Americans have no better than third world health care. That's why 45,000 Americans die each year from lack of adequate health care. In Canada, with universal health care, they would be alive. In the US, with the insurance takeover of health care, they are DEAD.
murphyj87 2 years ago
So again, you can't prove that. I'm sure many Americans die needlessly without care, but the study that showed the 45,000 was based on other flawed research that originally showed 18,00 and, here's the important part, neither were powered to show that government programs would improve outcomes. Lifestyle and medical mistakes and hospital infections dwarf deaths due to lack of insurance. I'm not saying we shouldn't fix access, but claiming we're "killing 45,000/year" is a misinterpretation.
random63x 2 years ago
That does not come from THAT data, but comes from other reliable sources which back up the rankings of Canada 6th and the US 19th.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Ok, if you have a study, I would appreciate a link if you have it. As far as I've read, there are no studies that can actually show difference in outcome, since that would require a medical audit of huge numbers of patients. The preventative care studies, to my knowledge, only tabulate deaths due to disease, which only proves what we already know - americans have more heart disease, so we die more often of heart disease.
random63x 2 years ago
Ths diseases may be lifestyle related, many are genetic. My hypertension is genetic. I developed hypertension at 45. My mother developed hypertension at 45, my grandmother developed hypertension at 45.....see the pattern??? The COMPLICATIONS of these UNCONTROLLED conditions, once they occur, is totally a function of Americans being denied access to physicians to help them control them due to the insurance takeover of health care.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Everyone else in the industrialized world has access to physicians to assist in controlling. these conditions, so these people do not die in nearly the number that die from lack of affordable universal health care in the US, because insurance company profit means more in the US than these people's lives.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Let me try this another way. I totally agree that we need to increase access. My problem is that your arguments are based around a notion that profit is evil, etc. and that it is killing ppl. I'm trying to show that there are other factors that are independent of our healthcare system. If we just scrap our system and go Canadian, we might exacerbate other problems (cost inflation, lack of new drug research) for the sake of access, which may not improve mortality above what we have.
random63x 2 years ago
Profit is evil when it comes down to letting someone die because it will cost money to keep them alive.
Sorry little baby boy. You're a bit too fat. That's a precondition so fuck off.
This what you're defending btw. This is our system. We are not cars to be sold.
numnunums 2 years ago
Profit that does NOT KILL people is fine. Profit that KILLS people by RATIONING their health care so they DIE is not good.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Funny that you say that whan you oay TWICE as much fior health care now than anoy other nation in the industrialized world, and that in Canada, both small business and big business are thriving because they do not have to pay health care costs for their employees, since it is paid by the government and costs far less than in the US. Per capita, there are two Canadian discoveries, inventions and innovations for every Americans one.
murphyj87 2 years ago
The reason that business go to other nations and not to the US is because they have to pay health costs in the US that they do not in any other indiustrialized world. We have business in Cnada that you could have had in the US if you had single payer health care too, but you lost them because your health costs for businesses are so high. Per Capita, there are two Canadian discoveries, innovationsand inventions for every one in the US.
murphyj87 2 years ago
again i'd like to read your source on the innovation comment if you have one. in response, i agree...we clearly pay too much. how that would change with universal care isn't clear...private or public, you need a well-run system to combat cost inflation. i'm all for any system that will do that. unfortunately for us, none of the current proposals will do that. neither would superimposing a canadian system on top of ours.
random63x 2 years ago
If you're truly interested in sources then the youtube comment section isn't for you. That's why rightwing folks love it because they can go off without any backup or proof.
Posting links is difficult.
numnunums 2 years ago
fair enough
random63x 2 years ago
It would change with universal single payer because at least 90% of health care dollars would go toward health care. Currently, insurance companies remove 41% of premiums for their own use and only pay out 59% of premiums for health care. To cover everyone at 90% payout would cost much less that insurance-run health care costs only paying out 59% as they do with the insurance takeover of health care now.
murphyj87 2 years ago
in a vacuum, that's true. our system, unfortunately, wasn't "taken over", it evolved with the insurance companies. we can't just dismantle them, politically or legally. even if we could, americans wouldn't tolerate a system that rationed via the government. i'm aware of your time in the US from earlier comments, but you still shouldn't be assuming that i think what i think because i'm blind or brainwashed. when you have a constructive solution, i'll respond differently.
random63x 2 years ago
Well, it's taken over by insurance companies as much as health care will be "taken over" by government with health reform. Republicans always talk about the "government takeover of healthcare", well, if that's true then there has been an "insurance takeover of health care" up until now. Insurance pays now. Government pays with the public option, just like an insurance company. If one is a "takeover" then the other is a "takeover". Get the picture?
murphyj87 2 years ago
@murphyj87 False. A takeover means the government forces it's way into an area that it doesn't belong, in this case that is the private sector.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
You would have a far lower mortality if you had universal health care. There are several people that I've talked to on these pages who are LEAVING the US to live in Canada because they can't afford health care in the US. If you ever took off your blinders, you would see that the US is losing LOTS - both businesses and people to nations that have universal health care with much lower health costs than exist right now in the US. health reform, especially single payer would only lower costs.
murphyj87 2 years ago
If I took off my blinders? No offense, but I don't need a Canadian to remind me what my healthcare system is doing to the country. The problem is that none of the universal care plans are actually projected to lower costs, and that's a big deal. Obviously the universal access is great, but since we can't actually find evidence that it will decrease mortality, it's not clear that universal access is worth bankrupting all federal discretionary spending.
random63x 2 years ago
A Canadian who lived in the US for seven years and used insurance-run health care when I lived in the US.
murphyj87 2 years ago
The next year in Canada, based on the same amount of income, I paid $1800 a month for taxes, which INCLUDED health care, no copays, no deductables. $3000 a month with insurance-run in the US, $1800 a month with single payer in Canada. With single payer I had $1200 a month more in my pocket than I had with the insurance-run system in the US the year before. That means single payer cost ($1800/$3000) about 60% of what insurance-run costs.
murphyj87 2 years ago
in principle, you argument sounds right. but our experience here hasn't been completely the same. medicare is growing much faster than inflation, and that is including the vast amount of private subsidization it indirectly receives from private insurance (hospitals charge private insurers more to cover their medicare loses). we would pay less with "medicare for all", but we wouldn't see canada's savings.
random63x 2 years ago
No, because they haven't considered single payer, which is what really cuts costs because, as I said at least 90% of the pool goes for health care costs, not 59% as happens with the insurance takeover of health care now. Anthony Weiner and Dennis Kucinich have both introduced single payer bills but neither has been voted on yet.
murphyj87 2 years ago
i don't doubt you're correct. but single payer won't pass congress ever. you can't forcibly break the insurance companies contracts and expect to be re-elected.
random63x 2 years ago
You do if you want to slash costs for the good of the people do. If you want to enhance insurance company profits, you don't.
murphyj87 2 years ago
I'm correct that's exactly what happened in Canada since 1962 when single payer began in Canada, before the US even had Medicare, which Republican idiots said would turn the US into a socialist nation in 1965, with that "socialist" President Lyndon Johnson.
murphyj87 2 years ago
By eliminating insurance companies altogether (except for viison care, dental care and prescription drugs) and using taxes to create a smaller pool, but universal coverage that used to go to the massive insurance pool (of which they swallowed 41%) the amount going into the pool from taxes is much less that you used to pay for insurance. I paid $3000 a month for taxes+health insurance+deductables+copays my last year in the US.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Comment removed
murphyj87 2 years ago
Unfortunately, you're in the minority. When I lived in the US I saw lots of arrogant, narrow minded, navel gazing Americans, who tore down all their Allies(Canada, Britain, France, and all those....) every chance they got. Of course Bush did the same, as McCain did here. That makes us hate Americans, even though we know some, like you, are actually educated and informed.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Yea, I know. I was expatting it for a bit, and now that I am back in America. I really don't like it here. But its hard to tell my parents this because well they think this is the best place to ever exist in ever!!. Well atleast my dad thinks like that. He's never even been an expat before. HE thinks serving time in the marines in saudi arabia during the iraq war was the same experience I had when I was studying in Japan. No way in hell are they the same.
lordblazer 2 years ago
So you want insurance-run health care then? You wouldn't want that insurance company bureaucrat who stands between you and your physician to lose his bonus for denying you health care, would you? You'll never apply for Medicare either, on principle, since it's government funded health care. You may as well give up government funded police departments and fire deparments too. Don;t forget government funded public libraries, never set foot in one again, if you can even read a book that is.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Actually, I will apply for Medicare only because I'm forced to pay into it. If I could get all my money back that I paid into it (adjusting for inflation) then yes, I wouldn't apply, but otherwise you're asking me to cut my benefits without cutting my losses, which is quite idiotic for someone to cut benefits and not losses.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
It's ignorant fucks like you that keep insurance companies in business. Why do you think ins co's are able to make so much money, you dumb fuck? It's because insurance is mandated by the gov for employers. Do you really think ins co's are out of the loop when it comes to gov regulations? You fucking moron, they write the god damn laws! Public safety has nothing to do with me giving you money for health ins, you douche bag. Try educating yourself you fucking asshole.
bbburton 2 years ago
I'd never go back to insurance-run health carein the US. I have access to a universal single payer system in Canada which is far better than insurance-ruin health care. I would never go back to the inurance takeover of health care in the US. Insurance-run health care sucks, ans I have far better access and quality of health care in Canada than the insurance-run and rationed health care I had in the US.
murphyj87 2 years ago
Great. I'm not interested in what Canadians do or want. I don't live there, and I don't plan on moving there anytime soon. I'm American, and I plan on staying here. I'm not happy with the way gov has interfered in health care here, and more gov interference is not the answer. the answer is in the free market, not in a gov managed system. HMO's didn't work, mandated employer coverage didn't work, and anything else the gov has tried has been a complete and utter failure. It's insane.
bbburton 2 years ago
Awesome. Let me know how kickass government free Somalia is doing.
Byt the way I care about what other successful countries are doing and what we're not. The world doesn't exist in a vacuum of ideology.
A true free market can not exist for the same reasons why humans are not perfect robots.
numnunums 2 years ago
Blather. Nonsense. Irrelevant. What has Somalia got to do with health care in the US? Irrelevant. So you care about what other successful countries are doing and we are not. Blather. Free markets can't exist for the same reasons humans are not perfect robots. Nonsense.
bbburton 2 years ago
Poppycock good sir!
numnunums 2 years ago
Precisely.
bbburton 2 years ago
NHS is not free....Good luck with a chronic ailment with NHS hope you have a two, three or four years for treatment. Don't say it doesn't happen many newspaper articles that would say different..unless you think those are made up as well
urkiddin1 2 years ago
That's total garbage.
murphyj87 2 years ago
It's in the US that people with diabetes and hypertension and chronic conditions like that are nit able to afford to see a physicain to get those conditions under control until that lack of control ends up in disabling of killing complications: heart conditions, blindness, kidney failure, stroke, all because the uS is the only industrialized nation that FAILS to provide health care for ALL its citizens, In EVERY other nation. these complictaions would be far fewer and far less.
murphyj87 2 years ago
OK, i'll try again. Clearly, we would do better with more access. But you keep saying things like "ALL because the us doesn't have universal coverage". i'm pointing out that there are numerous studies showing that coverage isn't even close to being the main reason. we ignore the main reasons at our peril.
random63x 2 years ago
agian, are americans really that stupid ?
veldscha 2 years ago 3
It's awesome how McCain hates socialized healthcare yet he benefits from our free government healthcare system.
numnunums 2 years ago 4
ofcourse he was paid by the private healthcare corps
wulfsragar 2 years ago 3
Because he has to pay into it. Why pay for something you aren't going to use? I can guarantee you that if he could not pay into it and not benefit, he wouldn't.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
Taxes sure are hard to understand aren't they? I pay for people to use the ER so they don't die because I actually have a soul.
numnunums 2 years ago
Slash because your forced to. And if you want to pay for someone else's healthcare, then by all means do so on your own free will. Don't force me to. Let me do it with my free will too.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
Don't force me to subsidize your roads, police, fire protection, health safety standards, or military then. Better yet just move to liberation Paradise Somalia since such like minded people have made it into a mecca of freedom.
numnunums 2 years ago 2
But you benefit from them, so it's only fitting that you pay into it. Otherwise you'd be getting something from nothing, and how is that just?
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
It's pretty just since that's the whole idea behind taxes. Nothing is for free.
People yelling against healthcare reform are like the chicks in a max hardcore film. They are smiling and happy they are where they are. But in the end are still getting fucked in the ass with a table leg.
numnunums 2 years ago 2
Okay, are you on drugs? That did not make any sense whatsoever.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
Like, grammatically or rhetorically.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
Everyone benefits from UHC because they pay into it. Just because it's called taxes doesn't make it evil.
numnunums 2 years ago 2
No, not everyone. People who can afford their own, better, private insurance still pay into UHC, and they don't benefit from it. The only people who benefit from UHC are those who don't pay into it. Everyone else gets to be, as you say, "like the chicks in a max hardcore film".
And it's the other way around: You pay because you benefit, not you benefit because you pay.
AllKnowingMind 2 years ago
The