2 Thessalonians 2:15-16 is more of a problem for the Christians than it is for the Jesus Mythicists. Because if Paul wrote it, it places him in the postwar era, that is, after 70 CE, and not at 50 CE as most scholars claim it was written. Verse 16 (fin - paraphrase from memory): "And God's wrath has come upon them at last."
@EdM021 Of course it would place Paul after 73 CE but also it would make Paul quite the anti-semite as this verse is insanely hateful against all Jews and that is in fact the OPPOSITE of Paul's writings in all 7 of his authentic letters. So, there really isn't an "if Paul wrote this" in my mind. No way in hell (heheh) did he write that. It was written by a NON-Jew Christian long after poor Paul had kicked the bucket. Poor people had their words altered by others. :(
@TruthSurge Yes, it is insanely anti-semitic. Because crucfiixion, in spite of one of the Temple Scrolls saying that one who betrayed his people to foreigners was to be hanged alive, was supposed to be a uniquely Roman method of execution. Jews were simply not allowed to crucifiy, period!
@TruthSurge Actually you have to spend time digging on the subject of crucifixion. Most of the stuff you'll find out there, of course, is a load of Xian rubbish which concerns itself mainly with one character in particular who allegedly was crucified here on Earth and went by the name of Jesus Christ.
@EdM021 also, it's not 2nd Thessalonians. It's FIRST Thessalonians and the other part that is the biggest problem for the JM theory is that the verses accuse the Jews of actually killing Jesus. Paul NEVER once does that in ANY of his 7 authentic letters. If this verse was truly by Paul, it was show he thought Jesus WAS killed sometime in the early first century and that this was done BY the Jews and the Roman war seen as God's punishment for it.
@TruthSurge You're right, that's the hugest problem. Because it means that if Paul actually wrote this, then Paul's gospel is actually the gospel of Luke, or at least the part that includes the basic gist of Luke ch. 23. It says Pilate surrendered him to their will and they went off and crucified him! Andwhoever wrote Acts stayed on Luke's message.
@TruthSurge The important thing, do the scholars beleiev it? Oh wait, you don't have to answer that question considering most NT scholars are Christian!
thanks! I feel that the best productions (art, music, writing) are made when you actually have something to say and feel fairly strongly about it. Not many YTers have done JM theory stuff. A few have hinted at it. So I think my series is "somewhat" unique on YT anyway.
Well sir I can only say that I grew up in church but thats not how i came to know him. I had a dead faith. I was filled sin and pride I used to treat God like you. I would entertain any theories and worlviews I pleased while saying i was a christian. Well God will not be mocked. He does opppose the proud but give Grace to the humble. He provides clues to his truth but the self righteous do not look for them. Look at his law a mirror to show us ourselves.Have you ever lied,stolen,lusted?
The gospel offers a completely exclusive and remarkable promise. Jesus Claimed if you believe in him and repent you are garunteed complete forgiveness. Salvation by grace through faith, not by your own work but by His. Here's the problem neither you or me are inclined to trully follow God we all have a nature to the contrary. Most Don't believe because the call of the gospel is self abasement and self denile. Jesus didn't make it easy to believe but He said "I tell you the truth".
Why an all-knowing god would make it so hard that most people wouldn't be ABLE to believe and thus burn forever just because they couldn't understand it or didn't buy the fictional stories of talking snakes and talking donkeys, is really unbelievable. Your god is powerless because... he doesn't exist. He only exists in your mind and the minds of all Christian. That's it. Poof! You have nothing but empty, vain promises. No action. buh bye now.
Excuse me sir, did Jesus ever do anything that would ever disqualify the testimony he had about himself? How about what would motives even be for the apostles to manufacture their own religion, what did they gain, fame? fortune? No my freind the New testament is a testimony which across biblical teaching is fluid and does bot contradict. A good witness never changes his story. The truth is the variations in the old texts do not change the doctrine.
"How about what would motives even be for the apostles to manufacture their own religion, what did they gain, fame? fortune?"
What did the men who invented Islam gain? What did the men who invented the Hindu religion gain? what did the men who invented Mormonism gain? What did the men who invented Zeus gain? What did the men who invented all the OTHER world religions gain? It isn't about gain. Religions get invented. Yours is no different.
The Bible claims in John14:21 tha He who loves God and obeys his commandments will be loved of God in return and that in result God would come to him and manifest Himself to him. Jeremiah 29:13 states if you seek God with your whole heart you would find him. Thats a old and new testament promise stating the same thing. Did you ever do that sir? Did you ever come to the Lord in humility and repentance to see what might result?
Yep. Was a Christian for over 10 years. Now let me ask you something. Have you ever considered that the Bible is just a bunch of contradictory stories written by bronze-age men?
Wow this is a very misleading a intellectualy dishonest video. It's amazing how I don't really hear the proof he talks about. First if there is no passage in thessolonians without this text he speaks couls it not be because that actually is the faithful text. Why is the text quoted out of context or compared with other teachings of paul. Why is there no expert to testify of the christian worldview. If this man has no hidden agenda then I don't know why he bothers.
Just a real quick question for ya. If you wanted to know whether a mobster robbed a certain bank yesterday, would you go ask the mobster "Pardon me sir, did you rob that bank yesterday?" What answer do you think you'd get? What answer do you think a Christian would give regarding Jesus' historicity? Get it now? YOU have the vested interest which keeps you from examining the issues with an open mind. And where did I say there was any proof?
You are not ready to entertain the thought that Jesus never existed. I don't know of many Christians who are (except maybe for Robert M. Price who, by the way, has TWO Ph.D.s in the topic at hand). So, I suggest if you are interested in this, watch my first vids first. Read Earl Doherty's book, The Jesus Puzzle. Read something by someone who DOESN'T have a vested interest (ie, NOT C.S. Lewis). The world is much larger than you know. Thanks for watching.
The very start IN the vid says part A (that tells you there are more parts to come! :) ) As well as the description! Relax dude. Watch, read, soak it in,,,, THEN bash me if I don't come through for ya.
If Paul believed Jesus was killed by the Jews, it would necessarily place Jesus on Earth and therefore contradict the Jesus Myth theory that he was NOT on Earth. THAT'S what would be hard to get around or overcome.
I see thank you. So part of the set-up here is that Jesus Myth supporters believe that Paul portrays Jesus only in the spiritual sense and 2) we have to assume that Paul himself was real.
I must confess the point kind of baffles me. Even if Paul expressly says Jesus was real, how reliable is this guy who reliable is he? In many cases he either contradicts Jesus or seems unaware of important biographical details. Still, an interesting series.
Right. I have heard theories that Paul's letters were ALL forgeries. It isn't impossible. But part of the JM theory is that the early christians had not yet run into the gospel story and they worshipped a Jesus who was a god in heaven who had performed his great deed in heaven and who would appear to take them there one day.
As of now, I am not in the "invented Paul" camp. I take his letters (the 7) as being genuine with some edits by later Christians.
2 Thessalonians 2:15-16 is more of a problem for the Christians than it is for the Jesus Mythicists. Because if Paul wrote it, it places him in the postwar era, that is, after 70 CE, and not at 50 CE as most scholars claim it was written. Verse 16 (fin - paraphrase from memory): "And God's wrath has come upon them at last."
EdM021 2 months ago
@EdM021 Of course it would place Paul after 73 CE but also it would make Paul quite the anti-semite as this verse is insanely hateful against all Jews and that is in fact the OPPOSITE of Paul's writings in all 7 of his authentic letters. So, there really isn't an "if Paul wrote this" in my mind. No way in hell (heheh) did he write that. It was written by a NON-Jew Christian long after poor Paul had kicked the bucket. Poor people had their words altered by others. :(
TruthSurge 2 months ago
@TruthSurge Yes, it is insanely anti-semitic. Because crucfiixion, in spite of one of the Temple Scrolls saying that one who betrayed his people to foreigners was to be hanged alive, was supposed to be a uniquely Roman method of execution. Jews were simply not allowed to crucifiy, period!
EdM021 2 months ago
Forgot: the Temple Scrolls were a small part of the Qumran find, commonly known as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
EdM021 2 months ago
@EdM021 I wish I was up on Roman culture in the 1st century. Maybe there's some cliff's notes on it online. hehe
TruthSurge 2 months ago
@TruthSurge Actually you have to spend time digging on the subject of crucifixion. Most of the stuff you'll find out there, of course, is a load of Xian rubbish which concerns itself mainly with one character in particular who allegedly was crucified here on Earth and went by the name of Jesus Christ.
EdM021 2 months ago
@EdM021 another exactly. :)
TruthSurge 2 months ago
@EdM021 also, it's not 2nd Thessalonians. It's FIRST Thessalonians and the other part that is the biggest problem for the JM theory is that the verses accuse the Jews of actually killing Jesus. Paul NEVER once does that in ANY of his 7 authentic letters. If this verse was truly by Paul, it was show he thought Jesus WAS killed sometime in the early first century and that this was done BY the Jews and the Roman war seen as God's punishment for it.
TruthSurge 2 months ago
@TruthSurge I thought I did type 1 Thessalonians. Must have been a typo.
EdM021 2 months ago
@TruthSurge You're right, that's the hugest problem. Because it means that if Paul actually wrote this, then Paul's gospel is actually the gospel of Luke, or at least the part that includes the basic gist of Luke ch. 23. It says Pilate surrendered him to their will and they went off and crucified him! Andwhoever wrote Acts stayed on Luke's message.
EdM021 2 months ago
@EdM021 I think most people believe the same person wrote Luke and Acts.
TruthSurge 2 months ago
@TruthSurge The important thing, do the scholars beleiev it? Oh wait, you don't have to answer that question considering most NT scholars are Christian!
EdM021 2 months ago
@EdM021 exactly.
TruthSurge 2 months ago
Man when you do something, you put in some work.
Apples.
Get em.
2eelShmeal 7 months ago
I can't believe I'm only up to 2009. Fuck me. Jesus will return before I get current.
2eelShmeal 7 months ago
This is a great series. Thanks for producing it. :D
Shadowflare00 2 years ago
thanks! I feel that the best productions (art, music, writing) are made when you actually have something to say and feel fairly strongly about it. Not many YTers have done JM theory stuff. A few have hinted at it. So I think my series is "somewhat" unique on YT anyway.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
Well sir I can only say that I grew up in church but thats not how i came to know him. I had a dead faith. I was filled sin and pride I used to treat God like you. I would entertain any theories and worlviews I pleased while saying i was a christian. Well God will not be mocked. He does opppose the proud but give Grace to the humble. He provides clues to his truth but the self righteous do not look for them. Look at his law a mirror to show us ourselves.Have you ever lied,stolen,lusted?
dmzle 2 years ago
The gospel offers a completely exclusive and remarkable promise. Jesus Claimed if you believe in him and repent you are garunteed complete forgiveness. Salvation by grace through faith, not by your own work but by His. Here's the problem neither you or me are inclined to trully follow God we all have a nature to the contrary. Most Don't believe because the call of the gospel is self abasement and self denile. Jesus didn't make it easy to believe but He said "I tell you the truth".
dmzle 2 years ago
Why an all-knowing god would make it so hard that most people wouldn't be ABLE to believe and thus burn forever just because they couldn't understand it or didn't buy the fictional stories of talking snakes and talking donkeys, is really unbelievable. Your god is powerless because... he doesn't exist. He only exists in your mind and the minds of all Christian. That's it. Poof! You have nothing but empty, vain promises. No action. buh bye now.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
Excuse me sir, did Jesus ever do anything that would ever disqualify the testimony he had about himself? How about what would motives even be for the apostles to manufacture their own religion, what did they gain, fame? fortune? No my freind the New testament is a testimony which across biblical teaching is fluid and does bot contradict. A good witness never changes his story. The truth is the variations in the old texts do not change the doctrine.
dmzle 2 years ago
"How about what would motives even be for the apostles to manufacture their own religion, what did they gain, fame? fortune?"
What did the men who invented Islam gain? What did the men who invented the Hindu religion gain? what did the men who invented Mormonism gain? What did the men who invented Zeus gain? What did the men who invented all the OTHER world religions gain? It isn't about gain. Religions get invented. Yours is no different.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
The Bible claims in John14:21 tha He who loves God and obeys his commandments will be loved of God in return and that in result God would come to him and manifest Himself to him. Jeremiah 29:13 states if you seek God with your whole heart you would find him. Thats a old and new testament promise stating the same thing. Did you ever do that sir? Did you ever come to the Lord in humility and repentance to see what might result?
dmzle 2 years ago
Yep. Was a Christian for over 10 years. Now let me ask you something. Have you ever considered that the Bible is just a bunch of contradictory stories written by bronze-age men?
TruthSurge 2 years ago
It's scary to watch this gentlemen. I suggest C.S. Lewis writing called Jesus.Liar,lunatic or Lord.
dmzle 2 years ago
LMAO!
TruthSurge 2 years ago
Wow this is a very misleading a intellectualy dishonest video. It's amazing how I don't really hear the proof he talks about. First if there is no passage in thessolonians without this text he speaks couls it not be because that actually is the faithful text. Why is the text quoted out of context or compared with other teachings of paul. Why is there no expert to testify of the christian worldview. If this man has no hidden agenda then I don't know why he bothers.
dmzle 2 years ago
Just a real quick question for ya. If you wanted to know whether a mobster robbed a certain bank yesterday, would you go ask the mobster "Pardon me sir, did you rob that bank yesterday?" What answer do you think you'd get? What answer do you think a Christian would give regarding Jesus' historicity? Get it now? YOU have the vested interest which keeps you from examining the issues with an open mind. And where did I say there was any proof?
TruthSurge 2 years ago
You are not ready to entertain the thought that Jesus never existed. I don't know of many Christians who are (except maybe for Robert M. Price who, by the way, has TWO Ph.D.s in the topic at hand). So, I suggest if you are interested in this, watch my first vids first. Read Earl Doherty's book, The Jesus Puzzle. Read something by someone who DOESN'T have a vested interest (ie, NOT C.S. Lewis). The world is much larger than you know. Thanks for watching.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
VERY INFORMATIVE!! 5STARS
BreadWinner06 2 years ago
thanks.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
The only evidence you have that that passage was inserted is that this kind of thing is known to have occured with other passages...?
That's terrible evidence for a specific claim...
Really good evidence for throwing the whole thing into the toilet though :)...
RodHullIOnceWasHim 2 years ago
God damn. Did you watch all four vids? fuck. I'm going to quit replying to your comments.
I gave SHITLOADS of evidence!
TruthSurge 2 years ago
I do apologise... I saw just this one pop up in my subs and it doesn't say part x of x or anything... I'll go have a look...
RodHullIOnceWasHim 2 years ago
Ah, My bad... The title is so long it doesn't show there are other parts... Be right back...
RodHullIOnceWasHim 2 years ago
The very start IN the vid says part A (that tells you there are more parts to come! :) ) As well as the description! Relax dude. Watch, read, soak it in,,,, THEN bash me if I don't come through for ya.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
"If Paul really believed...that's pretty hard to get around as far a Jesus being on Earth." Kind of confusing presentation.
Zakdayak 2 years ago
Sorry. Happens when you don't script it out.
If Paul believed Jesus was killed by the Jews, it would necessarily place Jesus on Earth and therefore contradict the Jesus Myth theory that he was NOT on Earth. THAT'S what would be hard to get around or overcome.
TruthSurge 2 years ago
I see thank you. So part of the set-up here is that Jesus Myth supporters believe that Paul portrays Jesus only in the spiritual sense and 2) we have to assume that Paul himself was real.
I must confess the point kind of baffles me. Even if Paul expressly says Jesus was real, how reliable is this guy who reliable is he? In many cases he either contradicts Jesus or seems unaware of important biographical details. Still, an interesting series.
Zakdayak 2 years ago
Right. I have heard theories that Paul's letters were ALL forgeries. It isn't impossible. But part of the JM theory is that the early christians had not yet run into the gospel story and they worshipped a Jesus who was a god in heaven who had performed his great deed in heaven and who would appear to take them there one day.
As of now, I am not in the "invented Paul" camp. I take his letters (the 7) as being genuine with some edits by later Christians.
TruthSurge 2 years ago