There ARE an infinite number of responses to any needed solution.. And we hardly ever choose the BEST one because we're only as smart as we can be and we can only do what our bodies allow us to do..
That guy's normative and blahbla argument was retarded.. read his comments for me refuting everything he says, which not to be arrogant but I believe I have..
everything is deterministic, simply, because the opposite of determinism is chaos.. also, everything we do is because of un-chosen stimuli
iam a panthiest your a cute girl ive about 6 of your videos and iam going to make a observation that is you dont have kids? right or wrong? not sure why i have this feeling.your very smart smarter than me and iam a man hahaha
In response to 2:30 randomness allows the possibility of choice. Determinism does not. Not understanding how randomness can be compatible with free will is probably a more accurate description of your concern. But this is a conundrum. Nobody truly understands random processes so how can we say free will is incompatible with randomness. Let me point out this, I don't think anyone knows exactly how 'will' works.
FIrst of all, the word randomness doesn't even have a clear definition, if it does at all. We probably should say "indeterministic" instead. Assuming the idea of having free will offers you some sort of comfort, since it allows you to make "free" choices, how on Earth does indeterminacy (as an agent of free will) offer comfort? If your "freeness" comes from an indeterministic process, how do you equate that with "freely choosing"? Can you not see there is no sensical way to even talk about this?
I agree completely with the first two sentences. But indetermincay means not 100% determinate. It doesn't necessarily mean 0% determinate. I have a skill of being able to solve the Rubik's Cube. I have many determinisitic steps involved in the solution. However, there are several steps which involve random choices on my part It does not matter which choice I make. I will still solve the cube. Overall, my solution is not deterministic. Yet, I always solve it!
But, as you know, none of your Rubik's Cube choices are actually random. Even if they were, say if a quantum fluctuation happened that influenced you one way or the other, there would be no reason to equate that will the idea of free will.
The point was to show that a process could accomplish something usefull even though it is made of random processes. How do you know how I made the choices? I never specified. I could have thrown a die or tossed a coin or used a hardware random number generator! It will still give the same result.
Point well taken. And my point is that none of that has anything to do with free will. Then again, I don't understand what free will is even supposed to be, so I can't possibly relate anything TO it.
The point was to show that a process could accomplish something usefull even though it is made of random processes. How do you know how I made the choices? I never specified. I could have thrown a die or tossed a coin or used a hardware random number generator! It will still give the same result.
Also, to clarify -- determinists, as far as I have seen, say we DO make choices. They just aren't "free". In this sense, choices are the calculations (or whatever you want to call it) that we do before we come to a decision. I don't care one way of the other, but am just trying to be consistent with our use of "choice" in our discussions.
Determinists definitely do not believe in 'random choices'. Which is my exact wording not simply 'choices'. I can't say that I agree with the determinists usage of 'choice' because it is an illusion according to their own definition. The choice has already been determined. They will argue that it is a choice. But, the argument is illogical. Randy has tackled this by using the word 'election'. So, replace all my "choices' with 'elections'.
Probably we'll be able to predetermine the direction of the "cut of the pie" by measuring activity in certain parts of our brain. Now we can already predetermine if someone will add or subtract 2 numbers, or if he'll klick on the right or the left side of a screen - up to 7 seconds before he does it.
Interesting! Have the subjects consciously decided 7 seconds before, or is it actually seen in the measurement before the subject is even aware of the choice they are about to make?
At any rate, in your example the brain-measurer is a part of the same universe as the brain he is measuring is contained in. Moreover, he is doing something different than he would if he was not doing the measuring. In this case - where only part of the universe is being predeterminmed - it doesn't matter.
But if he was measuring the entire universe instead of merely a brain, he would have to take his own actions into account and predetermine them as well. But who would be the measurer of HIS actions, at the same time he is measuring the rest of the universe? It's just a silly paradox, and I wish people would stop worrying about predeterminism altogether!
This experiment is not 100% predictable. It only predicts 60% of the time in advance by several seconds. Up to 7 seconds in advance in some cases. Please do not take the experiment out of context. If a charlaton made predictions 60% of the time about something that was 50-50 odds I don't think any of you would pay any attention. 60% means that there is in fact some processes that begin up to 7 seconds in advance that are related to the choice.
There is no free will. A will will run you about $3000. Where there is a will, there is a lawyer, so in this case there is causation to a will?
How about this. The human brain is like the alphabet. An alphabet can carry almost an entire language, yet know nothing about it, and only needs a small finite direct tie to what it carries. Perhaps the brain is like that, in that it carries the mind, which can exceed the world which carries it?
Things might seem that perhaps our lives are predetermined by chemicals and physics and whatnot. But on the quantum level, things are highly random. Quantum physics, which is a fundamental science, is very random in nature. One thing that Einstein was wrong about was "god does not play dice" when refering to the Copenhagen Interpretation. Look it up. Surely you can't buy into a deterministic world...
I want to make it clear that I don't believe things are PRE-determined.. If quantum reality rolls a die at some point, that is still determining an outcome and has nothing to do with free will.. or are we not even talking about free will anymore? lol.
I don't understand neither "free" or "will" even separately as a concept in a mechanical framework. "will" is an intentional concept. free is an emotion or connected to emotive framework at least. So, no I can't see how these become words with meaning in any study of physics. Do we have free will according to physics. The answer is "not applicable".
whether or not things are random or they're orderly, it doesn't change the "overly simplistic" fact that whatever is going to happen will happen. those who argue for free will tend to believe that free will allows people to choose their fate. but from whence comes the choices? Why is it that we have to choose at all? What makes us choose? How could free will work at all unless it is guided by something external? And if it is, how then is it free? It's not. It's an oxymoron. Sad but true!
free will only exists in a linguistic kind of sense. when we say free will, we are only talking about our ability to make decisions with apparent freedom from outside influence. one must then ask the question, how can this be possible? where can these decisions come from?
Hmm, well, I have no idea, but it seems, why cant it be predictable? You say it can be deterministic, but still not predictable, but it seems that it just cant be predictable to our limited ability to process only so many things at once. Like you say, how are we going to try to compute every factor of cutting a pie with out forgeting something or being a degree of somewhere in our assuming of what angle we will cut it at.
you said ... "predictability has nothing to do with whether something is deterministic or not".
I agree completely. And I amazed at how many otherwise really smart people inject our inability to predict every little event in the universe as some kind of "defense" for indeterminancy. It's a red herring at best.
You are a natural. Just pretend the camera is your audience and be yourself! Yes, I'm a costumed mascot who parades from elementary school to elementary school with platitudes to inspire!
tankoo! And thanks for nagging me. It worked. Well I always have been good at talking to people's voicemail, as if I'm talking to the person, so I suppose this is just taking it a step further. :)
I saw your response, thank you! And I approved it.. does youtube just take forever to update? Cuz it doesn't seem to be linked to mine as a response yet.
5:20 was beautiful btw....
and btw, when I said "chaos" earlier I meant random.... Not the chaos like in chaos theory....
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
Btw, urrrrrr CUTE ;)
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
There ARE an infinite number of responses to any needed solution.. And we hardly ever choose the BEST one because we're only as smart as we can be and we can only do what our bodies allow us to do..
That guy's normative and blahbla argument was retarded.. read his comments for me refuting everything he says, which not to be arrogant but I believe I have..
everything is deterministic, simply, because the opposite of determinism is chaos.. also, everything we do is because of un-chosen stimuli
SHIBBYiPANDA 1 year ago
1000th view, just because I wanted to have it. :)
Seravat7 1 year ago
@Seravat7 HAHAHA Yay! oh gosh. I always want to take this one down cuz it was the FIRST youtube video I did. so I felt totally awkward. :P
miselaineeous 1 year ago
Comment removed
Seravat7 1 year ago
@miselaineeous Oh please leave it up. You're such fun to watch. :)
And re: the above comment... yay wanting kids. (good thought from my perspective. Have you figured out who I am yet?) :D
Seravat7 1 year ago
iam a panthiest your a cute girl ive about 6 of your videos and iam going to make a observation that is you dont have kids? right or wrong? not sure why i have this feeling.your very smart smarter than me and iam a man hahaha
funkster22657 2 years ago
@funkster22657 Nope.. I haven't spawned yet. Someday!
miselaineeous 1 year ago
In response to 2:30 randomness allows the possibility of choice. Determinism does not. Not understanding how randomness can be compatible with free will is probably a more accurate description of your concern. But this is a conundrum. Nobody truly understands random processes so how can we say free will is incompatible with randomness. Let me point out this, I don't think anyone knows exactly how 'will' works.
dartplayer170 2 years ago
FIrst of all, the word randomness doesn't even have a clear definition, if it does at all. We probably should say "indeterministic" instead. Assuming the idea of having free will offers you some sort of comfort, since it allows you to make "free" choices, how on Earth does indeterminacy (as an agent of free will) offer comfort? If your "freeness" comes from an indeterministic process, how do you equate that with "freely choosing"? Can you not see there is no sensical way to even talk about this?
miselaineeous 2 years ago
I agree completely with the first two sentences. But indetermincay means not 100% determinate. It doesn't necessarily mean 0% determinate. I have a skill of being able to solve the Rubik's Cube. I have many determinisitic steps involved in the solution. However, there are several steps which involve random choices on my part It does not matter which choice I make. I will still solve the cube. Overall, my solution is not deterministic. Yet, I always solve it!
dartplayer170 2 years ago
But, as you know, none of your Rubik's Cube choices are actually random. Even if they were, say if a quantum fluctuation happened that influenced you one way or the other, there would be no reason to equate that will the idea of free will.
miselaineeous 2 years ago
Comment removed
dartplayer170 2 years ago
The point was to show that a process could accomplish something usefull even though it is made of random processes. How do you know how I made the choices? I never specified. I could have thrown a die or tossed a coin or used a hardware random number generator! It will still give the same result.
dartplayer170 2 years ago
Point well taken. And my point is that none of that has anything to do with free will. Then again, I don't understand what free will is even supposed to be, so I can't possibly relate anything TO it.
miselaineeous 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The point was to show that a process could accomplish something usefull even though it is made of random processes. How do you know how I made the choices? I never specified. I could have thrown a die or tossed a coin or used a hardware random number generator! It will still give the same result.
dartplayer170 2 years ago
Comment removed
dartplayer170 2 years ago
Comment removed
dartplayer170 2 years ago
Also, to clarify -- determinists, as far as I have seen, say we DO make choices. They just aren't "free". In this sense, choices are the calculations (or whatever you want to call it) that we do before we come to a decision. I don't care one way of the other, but am just trying to be consistent with our use of "choice" in our discussions.
miselaineeous 2 years ago
Determinists definitely do not believe in 'random choices'. Which is my exact wording not simply 'choices'. I can't say that I agree with the determinists usage of 'choice' because it is an illusion according to their own definition. The choice has already been determined. They will argue that it is a choice. But, the argument is illogical. Randy has tackled this by using the word 'election'. So, replace all my "choices' with 'elections'.
dartplayer170 2 years ago
Probably we'll be able to predetermine the direction of the "cut of the pie" by measuring activity in certain parts of our brain. Now we can already predetermine if someone will add or subtract 2 numbers, or if he'll klick on the right or the left side of a screen - up to 7 seconds before he does it.
Torrriate 3 years ago
Comment removed
dartplayer170 2 years ago
Interesting! Have the subjects consciously decided 7 seconds before, or is it actually seen in the measurement before the subject is even aware of the choice they are about to make?
At any rate, in your example the brain-measurer is a part of the same universe as the brain he is measuring is contained in. Moreover, he is doing something different than he would if he was not doing the measuring. In this case - where only part of the universe is being predeterminmed - it doesn't matter.
miselaineeous 2 years ago
But if he was measuring the entire universe instead of merely a brain, he would have to take his own actions into account and predetermine them as well. But who would be the measurer of HIS actions, at the same time he is measuring the rest of the universe? It's just a silly paradox, and I wish people would stop worrying about predeterminism altogether!
miselaineeous 2 years ago
This experiment is not 100% predictable. It only predicts 60% of the time in advance by several seconds. Up to 7 seconds in advance in some cases. Please do not take the experiment out of context. If a charlaton made predictions 60% of the time about something that was 50-50 odds I don't think any of you would pay any attention. 60% means that there is in fact some processes that begin up to 7 seconds in advance that are related to the choice.
dartplayer170 2 years ago
There is no free will. A will will run you about $3000. Where there is a will, there is a lawyer, so in this case there is causation to a will?
How about this. The human brain is like the alphabet. An alphabet can carry almost an entire language, yet know nothing about it, and only needs a small finite direct tie to what it carries. Perhaps the brain is like that, in that it carries the mind, which can exceed the world which carries it?
TalksWithDirt 3 years ago
Things might seem that perhaps our lives are predetermined by chemicals and physics and whatnot. But on the quantum level, things are highly random. Quantum physics, which is a fundamental science, is very random in nature. One thing that Einstein was wrong about was "god does not play dice" when refering to the Copenhagen Interpretation. Look it up. Surely you can't buy into a deterministic world...
musicftm 3 years ago
Are you implying that randomness has something to do with free will?
miselaineeous 3 years ago
I am saying that randomness in nature and determinism are mutually exclusive.
musicftm 3 years ago
I want to make it clear that I don't believe things are PRE-determined.. If quantum reality rolls a die at some point, that is still determining an outcome and has nothing to do with free will.. or are we not even talking about free will anymore? lol.
miselaineeous 3 years ago
Well when are things determined then? If not before, then when?
musicftm 3 years ago
I don't understand neither "free" or "will" even separately as a concept in a mechanical framework. "will" is an intentional concept. free is an emotion or connected to emotive framework at least. So, no I can't see how these become words with meaning in any study of physics. Do we have free will according to physics. The answer is "not applicable".
Censeo 3 years ago
whether or not things are random or they're orderly, it doesn't change the "overly simplistic" fact that whatever is going to happen will happen. those who argue for free will tend to believe that free will allows people to choose their fate. but from whence comes the choices? Why is it that we have to choose at all? What makes us choose? How could free will work at all unless it is guided by something external? And if it is, how then is it free? It's not. It's an oxymoron. Sad but true!
mrtyles 4 years ago
Very well put, mrtyles!
miselaineeous 3 years ago
free will only exists in a linguistic kind of sense. when we say free will, we are only talking about our ability to make decisions with apparent freedom from outside influence. one must then ask the question, how can this be possible? where can these decisions come from?
mrtyles 4 years ago
Hmm, well, I have no idea, but it seems, why cant it be predictable? You say it can be deterministic, but still not predictable, but it seems that it just cant be predictable to our limited ability to process only so many things at once. Like you say, how are we going to try to compute every factor of cutting a pie with out forgeting something or being a degree of somewhere in our assuming of what angle we will cut it at.
EricS2008 4 years ago
you said ... "predictability has nothing to do with whether something is deterministic or not".
I agree completely. And I amazed at how many otherwise really smart people inject our inability to predict every little event in the universe as some kind of "defense" for indeterminancy. It's a red herring at best.
Great video.
SpiritualAtheist 4 years ago
You are a natural. Just pretend the camera is your audience and be yourself! Yes, I'm a costumed mascot who parades from elementary school to elementary school with platitudes to inspire!
burnvictim77 4 years ago
tankoo! And thanks for nagging me. It worked. Well I always have been good at talking to people's voicemail, as if I'm talking to the person, so I suppose this is just taking it a step further. :)
miselaineeous 4 years ago
Hi miselaineeous, thanks for this vid and the great questions; video response comming as soon as YouTube stops flaking out on me....
randyhelzerman 4 years ago
I saw your response, thank you! And I approved it.. does youtube just take forever to update? Cuz it doesn't seem to be linked to mine as a response yet.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
Yeah, YouTube takes a while to regain sanity after a disturbance in the force..... And I also send thanks to Gary for prodding you into making vids.
randyhelzerman 4 years ago