I agree with Anarchism, but until I start hearing specific ideas about how to handle certain things, IDK if i can fully commit to it. Anarchists are against force, but sometimes force is the only way to oppose force. When you say things like "the community" will decide how to handle a criminal, what exactly is a community in an anarchist world? How big is it? Is the entire world the community? If so, how can you expel someone from it? And how can you expel them without force?
@tph2010 It's a collective. In my mind, it's a bunch of small communities forming a sort mega community, a federation if you will with little to no governmental power.
If you committed a crime, you expelled from the community.
When it comes to justice, the only way to enforce is to use force. So, to expel someone from the community. without force is damn near impossible. So, you use as little force as possible, while acting for the community.
@tph2010 Whatever defined by the communities in question, and in fact the communities harmed are the ones that get invloved. The communities should work with each other, in the absence of written law.
There's a movie where a bunch of people live in a non technical "village" that is located on a very large piece of land owned by someone...I think the movie is called the "Village"? not sure....so they are isolated and think they are in the 18th century or whatever....why couldn't the same be done with an Anarchist society? Perhaps like a "reservation" or some sort of island? Some way to insulate the people living in it from the tyrannical governments of the world?
If someone had just raped one of my friends, I don't think "hey, let's get you some education" would make me or her (or, possibly, his) friends/family too happy. I'm an anarchist too, so don't think I'm here to bitch and moan, but I think there's a point where "freedom" becomes a bit ridiculous. What about the person who was raped? What happened to their freedom while it was happening?
Thank you for these videos! I've been reading the FAQ on infoshop but it is very detailed. For someone completely new to these ideas, it's nice see them summarized
We won't need prisons because everyone will be good because the society will be perfect.
Wow.
Do you even know people at all. You can give a person everything they could possibly desire, but they would still be subject to aspects such as crimes of passion, and there will alway be an element of people whom prey on others. It is unfortunate, but you cannot not assume that it will go away if we were all happier.
This makes anarchism look like an ideal rather than an actual feasible option.
@sitakaliism Everything, including food but most importantly space. Infinite wants and limited resources is all I mean by scarcity. How does an anarchist culture emerge out of that mentality and if one does emerge by suppressing certain wants isn't it about as equally oppressive to the individual as the status quo?
@EnergizerBunny804 well they dont wish to clothe, feed the lazy. if you dont want to do anything dont expect anyone to do anything for you. they believe in equality but not unfair equality
@Orca40 It's obvious you just want to attack anarchism, but you do it wrong, without using reason and I'm too old for those "talks", I leave you in your round about ways.
@Orca40 I thinl you don't know about the anarchist revolution. Spain has a king today. Monarchy, Republic, Franco all of them were against the people.
@Orca40 In Spanish Civil War the anarchist experiment worked but later was crushed by fascism. You were the first talking about circus, so it's in your mind, doesn't it? cause it looks like it's still there. Remember that it is from cowards to throw the rock and hide the hand. Anarchists want to control earth not other human beings. I think you were watching too much tv circus.
@Orca40 Those experiments worked in Spain civil war. Reality is that you don't live with solidarity and maybe you wont. The fact of the existence of that word is cause it happens. The circus is just in your head, have fun there.
errr..... there's something called vorephillia, it's a sexual fetish that includes amputees and so on, how do we solve this problem @_@" just wondering, if people became free enough, fetishes will also be less restricted and they'll spread as a result.... so, my question is, what if there're too many people with vorephillia?
well its the same as now, some things considered moral in America may be immoral in another country and vice versa. you gotta learn whats accepted in each commune,
it would be a safe bet to get to know the people in the other commune before prancing in with your usual activities.
I personally disagree. For one thing, not all criminals can be rehabilitated through reeducation. Certain criminals have violent compulsions or other internal illnesses that can't be healed through external factors,. (Ie, psychopaths, who do not have the neurological capability for empathy or conscience) And I don't see how any of this would eliminate the drive for power in individuals or at least certain ones. Not to mention the issue of external invaders.
well I believe that with the better economy, and the closer society it would be, there would be a reduction of such mental cases. and if one did occur the people would deal with him based on what that particular community feels right.
I love all the videos you have made and totally agree with you on all of it. I think that a fair, equal society can happen when the capitalist, controlling, hierarchical society has been destroyed. There will then be no need for people to feel the need to protect their houses etc because the land will be everybody's and in a sense we will all be free. Nobody therefore will feel threatened and every citizen on earth will have the enjoyment and needs of life they deserve. No rich Vs poor !!!!!
I am by no means an expert on anarchism, but I do have experience in this reality called life. I do know one fact.. There are people in this world who want to make trouble and commit problems any chance they get. It does not matter if they had control or did not have control. Some people live to hurt others or create problems.. You could classify that as mental issue but how can you force someone to seek treatment that needs it in an anarchistic society.
It seems to me that a community deciding to expel a member is still forcing that person to do something they may not want to do, even if that person is a murderer
You can't argue the convict is not following Anarchist principals because forcing them to do anything, including leave the community, is violating Anarchist principals anyway.
I don't see how this system can work, unless we decide crime is permissible (not a good idea) because then and only then is Anarchism not in self contradiction
ahhh good point, the thing that you are forgetting though is that there is things called natural laws, in which anyone that violates any of these laws is hurting or they are acting against society and order. In that case that persona will be go to a special plase to be rehabilita. Anarchists are against laws that were decided by somebody else without the full consent of society, so in theory YES THERE IS LAWS but these are laws established by the community...
at the very least these are laws that make sense like natural laws and human rights. In theory though Anarchists belief that in an Anarchist societie crime doesn't exist because people don't have the need to do it, like rob for food, for political freedoms and stuff like that
You're confusing anarchism with pacifism. Sometimes (although rarely), coercion is acceptable. If that means kicking an unrepentant murderer out of society, then so be it.
The point I was making was that coercion for the public good is still coercion and therefor is reminiscent of a state and a government.
Coercion in the case of kicking murderer out of a community is done by the public and for the public, which is exactly what a government is so you have recreated the state, you just redesigned it
So anarchism in this way is not the lack of a state it is more the direct involvement of the public into the workings of the state, via direct democracy and the like
THANK YOU for putting this video up! i've been waiting for you to talk about this subject since you started putting these videos up. I'd love if there will be more in-depth lessons on the crime issue.
Beats me. Sometimes I try to talk sense into them. If that fails, and it usually does, I drop them. I have plenty of other things to do then to teach logic and sociology and history and anthropology to a bunch of stubborn, ignorant assholes.
More to the point: does the current system stop things like that?
There are some things that are just unacceptable to people, whatever political system we have in place, and rapists and child molesters would obviously need to be coerced in acts of legitimate authority.
No police? You have the freedom to hire someone to protect you and your property, right? I think there would be a very high demand for police not because of crime but because it would keep in check allot of the power in society. Just my thoughts.
some anarchist believes in self defense against the attack of others (individualy or all the society).
but if an anarchis society exist is because the people who live in it made that society; so they are anarchist, or believe in anarchist ideas; so they dont believe in freedom, and others freedom (including that you and the rest cant be hurt by other persons); son nobody would commit no crime
I don't think its that simple. People get emotional or may alter their minds with drugs or religion and do things they normally would not have. Anarchy doesn't alleviate mistakes, people are still human. In every society there are dissidents and there will be some that will never ever conform to society, for the sake of non-conformity.
@ericvonh It's easy to get away with it now. Plus you get to paid to do it someone else's backyard. State and religion, making you pay for shit none of us really want.
@ericvonh that is not true, these videos dont really have any meaningfull answers. all anarchists know that without protection of liberty a society is impossible. There would still be technology to solve crime. there would still be some sort of a court system with the remaining crime. but a anarchist society would be more complex than the "justice system" we have today
nice clip! the songs you select give a great ambiance! I love anarco-primitivism, small communities interacting with many other small communities, and the revelatory power of the natural world.
People who criticize anarchism like to bitch and moan about things like this but they don't seem to realize that the current criminal justice system is about as bad as one can get. There's really no redeeming features to it at all and pretty much anything is an improvement by comparison. I'd rather the odd maniac go free than see millions locked in torture chambers for so-called 'drug crimes'.
Yeah, like people who thing that anarchy would simply be violence when really capitalism itself creates violence that we don't see everyday but still happens.
I would argue that the chief cause of violence is an imbalance of power. Power can be measured in many ways: money, beauty, strength, intelligence, charisma. The problem I see is that humans are naturally selfish and power hungery. Free market capitalism is a method to pit one human's greed against anothers in the hope that they will acheive a mutually benificial agreement. not ideal but also not the worst possible outcome.
Yeah but more so money, thus capitalism takes a huge part of causes of violence.
Another advantage to no government is that no wars are declared against other bodies or countries, the only wars are invasions from other countries. I think the author of the video had described how to solve this problem, with small militias that are 100% voluntary.
I think that capitalism exacerbates the problem of power imbalance. Free market capitalism would be fine by me if we had real free markets (by definition in anarchist terms there could be no lying, cheating, or coercion of any kind, since all transactions have to be voluntary). Also there's the issue of corporations having hierarchical power structures that are inherrantly authoritarian.
Anarchistic free market capitalism (as you definie it) will never exist. In order to have this free market the people within it would have to be inheirantly altreuistic to a fault. As for hierarchial power structures; they not only in corporations, but also small bussiness', militias, and even the human social structures. In my estimation, what anarchy asks of the human condition is too much.
I don't believe that we CAN count on altruism, and I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. In my last message what I said was that anarcho-capitalism HAS to be perfect freedom (the anarcho part) and perfect capitalism or the two prior suppositions become mutually exclusive. Again, I'll emphatically state for the record that I am not an anarcho-capitalist.
Very good video, thanx! You make a very good point by saying that we do not know for cirtain what an anarchist "justice system" would entail down to the nuts and bolts. No other society has ever arrived with a fully formed and functioning justice system. Trial, error and precident would have to occure. I also agree with your assesment of the character of crime (or lack there of) in an anarchist society.
Very good, thanks for the video. I've been looking forward to it. That last part about offering a set of principles rather than a detailed solution for every case is similar to Chomsky's views.
You said something interesting in this video which got me thinking. You said if there was no inequality then there would be no need for hatred, crime or frustration etc. But right now I have the very morals and respect for people you expect with equality. So why don't I/we apply to this rule? If people were intrigued by the universe they lived in and questioned all authority, etc. We would evolve past this primitive era. I agree with "people need to free themselves" summed it up nicely.
I agree with Anarchism, but until I start hearing specific ideas about how to handle certain things, IDK if i can fully commit to it. Anarchists are against force, but sometimes force is the only way to oppose force. When you say things like "the community" will decide how to handle a criminal, what exactly is a community in an anarchist world? How big is it? Is the entire world the community? If so, how can you expel someone from it? And how can you expel them without force?
tph2010 2 months ago
@tph2010 It's a collective. In my mind, it's a bunch of small communities forming a sort mega community, a federation if you will with little to no governmental power.
If you committed a crime, you expelled from the community.
When it comes to justice, the only way to enforce is to use force. So, to expel someone from the community. without force is damn near impossible. So, you use as little force as possible, while acting for the community.
redundantstudios 2 weeks ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@redundantstudios So at what point does the jurisdiction of one community end and another begin?
tph2010 2 weeks ago
@tph2010 Whatever defined by the communities in question, and in fact the communities harmed are the ones that get invloved. The communities should work with each other, in the absence of written law.
redundantstudios 2 weeks ago
There's a movie where a bunch of people live in a non technical "village" that is located on a very large piece of land owned by someone...I think the movie is called the "Village"? not sure....so they are isolated and think they are in the 18th century or whatever....why couldn't the same be done with an Anarchist society? Perhaps like a "reservation" or some sort of island? Some way to insulate the people living in it from the tyrannical governments of the world?
timeoutforart 5 months ago
If someone had just raped one of my friends, I don't think "hey, let's get you some education" would make me or her (or, possibly, his) friends/family too happy. I'm an anarchist too, so don't think I'm here to bitch and moan, but I think there's a point where "freedom" becomes a bit ridiculous. What about the person who was raped? What happened to their freedom while it was happening?
SebbeSucksBawlz 8 months ago
Thank you for these videos! I've been reading the FAQ on infoshop but it is very detailed. For someone completely new to these ideas, it's nice see them summarized
fyarflur 9 months ago
Have their basic needs met. People are greedy. We all are to a certain degree. There is no way that you can prevent that completely.
connerjd 9 months ago
We won't need prisons because everyone will be good because the society will be perfect.
Wow.
Do you even know people at all. You can give a person everything they could possibly desire, but they would still be subject to aspects such as crimes of passion, and there will alway be an element of people whom prey on others. It is unfortunate, but you cannot not assume that it will go away if we were all happier.
This makes anarchism look like an ideal rather than an actual feasible option.
socrates183 10 months ago
@Orca40 infoshop[dot]org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionI8
sitakaliism 1 year ago
How does an anarchist society deal with scarcity?
RockTheBellCurve 1 year ago
@RockTheBellCurve ...what scarcity? And please don't say food.
sitakaliism 1 year ago
@sitakaliism Everything, including food but most importantly space. Infinite wants and limited resources is all I mean by scarcity. How does an anarchist culture emerge out of that mentality and if one does emerge by suppressing certain wants isn't it about as equally oppressive to the individual as the status quo?
RockTheBellCurve 1 year ago
Comment removed
jesselakerr 1 year ago
what if I can work, but I refuse to cu I'm lazy, what would happen to me?
EnergizerBunny804 1 year ago
@EnergizerBunny804 well they dont wish to clothe, feed the lazy. if you dont want to do anything dont expect anyone to do anything for you. they believe in equality but not unfair equality
jesselakerr 1 year ago
@EnergizerBunny804 You'd only be lazy because you'd not be hungry enough to be motivated. Hunger can make you do many things.
jacksawild 1 year ago
@EnergizerBunny804 You would be publicly ostracised and have no access to luxuries, fun, or a happy life.
sitakaliism 1 year ago
@Orca40 It's obvious you just want to attack anarchism, but you do it wrong, without using reason and I'm too old for those "talks", I leave you in your round about ways.
velero24 1 year ago
@Orca40 I thinl you don't know about the anarchist revolution. Spain has a king today. Monarchy, Republic, Franco all of them were against the people.
velero24 1 year ago
@Orca40 In Spanish Civil War the anarchist experiment worked but later was crushed by fascism. You were the first talking about circus, so it's in your mind, doesn't it? cause it looks like it's still there. Remember that it is from cowards to throw the rock and hide the hand. Anarchists want to control earth not other human beings. I think you were watching too much tv circus.
velero24 1 year ago
@Orca40 Those experiments worked in Spain civil war. Reality is that you don't live with solidarity and maybe you wont. The fact of the existence of that word is cause it happens. The circus is just in your head, have fun there.
velero24 1 year ago
@Orca40 Experiments have already been done succesfully. Nobody is forcing you to behave with solidarity. It wouldn't be anarchy that way.
velero24 1 year ago
@Orca40 I'm talking about you. Not your country or mine.
velero24 1 year ago
@Orca40 If you can't live with solidarity doesn't mean others can't.
velero24 1 year ago
errr..... there's something called vorephillia, it's a sexual fetish that includes amputees and so on, how do we solve this problem @_@" just wondering, if people became free enough, fetishes will also be less restricted and they'll spread as a result.... so, my question is, what if there're too many people with vorephillia?
falcon731boy 1 year ago
@falcon731boy mental illnesses would be treated in anarchy like it is today, the real question is what to do with assholes.
velero24 1 year ago
well its the same as now, some things considered moral in America may be immoral in another country and vice versa. you gotta learn whats accepted in each commune,
it would be a safe bet to get to know the people in the other commune before prancing in with your usual activities.
nomoreyou1212 2 years ago
they would rely on their OWN moral sense.
nomoreyou1212 2 years ago
I personally disagree. For one thing, not all criminals can be rehabilitated through reeducation. Certain criminals have violent compulsions or other internal illnesses that can't be healed through external factors,. (Ie, psychopaths, who do not have the neurological capability for empathy or conscience) And I don't see how any of this would eliminate the drive for power in individuals or at least certain ones. Not to mention the issue of external invaders.
redcommander27 2 years ago
well I believe that with the better economy, and the closer society it would be, there would be a reduction of such mental cases. and if one did occur the people would deal with him based on what that particular community feels right.
nomoreyou1212 2 years ago
Nice. Disagree on some stuff, but hey, so what?
Love the music!
briano8713 2 years ago
I love all the videos you have made and totally agree with you on all of it. I think that a fair, equal society can happen when the capitalist, controlling, hierarchical society has been destroyed. There will then be no need for people to feel the need to protect their houses etc because the land will be everybody's and in a sense we will all be free. Nobody therefore will feel threatened and every citizen on earth will have the enjoyment and needs of life they deserve. No rich Vs poor !!!!!
gemmamonkpunkbaker 2 years ago 9
However, I do believe anarchism is a step in the right direction.. Just the theory still needs some working on ..
wobblebrain 2 years ago
I am by no means an expert on anarchism, but I do have experience in this reality called life. I do know one fact.. There are people in this world who want to make trouble and commit problems any chance they get. It does not matter if they had control or did not have control. Some people live to hurt others or create problems.. You could classify that as mental issue but how can you force someone to seek treatment that needs it in an anarchistic society.
wobblebrain 2 years ago
It seems to me that a community deciding to expel a member is still forcing that person to do something they may not want to do, even if that person is a murderer
You can't argue the convict is not following Anarchist principals because forcing them to do anything, including leave the community, is violating Anarchist principals anyway.
I don't see how this system can work, unless we decide crime is permissible (not a good idea) because then and only then is Anarchism not in self contradiction
Kingucktoad 3 years ago
ahhh good point, the thing that you are forgetting though is that there is things called natural laws, in which anyone that violates any of these laws is hurting or they are acting against society and order. In that case that persona will be go to a special plase to be rehabilita. Anarchists are against laws that were decided by somebody else without the full consent of society, so in theory YES THERE IS LAWS but these are laws established by the community...
5ag5 3 years ago 3
at the very least these are laws that make sense like natural laws and human rights. In theory though Anarchists belief that in an Anarchist societie crime doesn't exist because people don't have the need to do it, like rob for food, for political freedoms and stuff like that
5ag5 3 years ago
You're confusing anarchism with pacifism. Sometimes (although rarely), coercion is acceptable. If that means kicking an unrepentant murderer out of society, then so be it.
VanDoodah 2 years ago
The point I was making was that coercion for the public good is still coercion and therefor is reminiscent of a state and a government.
Coercion in the case of kicking murderer out of a community is done by the public and for the public, which is exactly what a government is so you have recreated the state, you just redesigned it
So anarchism in this way is not the lack of a state it is more the direct involvement of the public into the workings of the state, via direct democracy and the like
Kingucktoad 2 years ago
@VanDoodah
So the murderer goes free and get's to leave a society he clearly did not respect? That sounds unjust to me?
redcommander27 2 years ago
What did I write?
VanDoodah 2 years ago
@VanDoodah
I can't find your comment. I might have been responding to to the video itself.
redcommander27 2 years ago
DannyOKC,
THANK YOU for putting this video up! i've been waiting for you to talk about this subject since you started putting these videos up. I'd love if there will be more in-depth lessons on the crime issue.
zestydressing 3 years ago
I would commit sadistic acts to innocent people if there were no hi tech justice system, personally. It would be very easy to get away with murder.
ericvonh 3 years ago
Then you aren't an anarchist and wouldn't belong to such a society in the first place.
Plus, you're obviously just a worthless piece of shit.
DannyOKC 3 years ago 21
i understand what he is saying but what do with someone like that
prjctcivilian 3 years ago
Beats me. Sometimes I try to talk sense into them. If that fails, and it usually does, I drop them. I have plenty of other things to do then to teach logic and sociology and history and anthropology to a bunch of stubborn, ignorant assholes.
DannyOKC 3 years ago 6
More to the point: does the current system stop things like that?
There are some things that are just unacceptable to people, whatever political system we have in place, and rapists and child molesters would obviously need to be coerced in acts of legitimate authority.
MarxBakuninMe 3 years ago
No police? You have the freedom to hire someone to protect you and your property, right? I think there would be a very high demand for police not because of crime but because it would keep in check allot of the power in society. Just my thoughts.
UcanbeGOD 3 years ago
some anarchist believes in self defense against the attack of others (individualy or all the society).
but if an anarchis society exist is because the people who live in it made that society; so they are anarchist, or believe in anarchist ideas; so they dont believe in freedom, and others freedom (including that you and the rest cant be hurt by other persons); son nobody would commit no crime
mondragonplus 3 years ago
I don't think its that simple. People get emotional or may alter their minds with drugs or religion and do things they normally would not have. Anarchy doesn't alleviate mistakes, people are still human. In every society there are dissidents and there will be some that will never ever conform to society, for the sake of non-conformity.
UcanbeGOD 3 years ago
@DannyOKC but how can liberty be secured???
jesselakerr 1 year ago
@ericvonh It's easy to get away with it now. Plus you get to paid to do it someone else's backyard. State and religion, making you pay for shit none of us really want.
Mephistophilus 1 year ago
@ericvonh that is not true, these videos dont really have any meaningfull answers. all anarchists know that without protection of liberty a society is impossible. There would still be technology to solve crime. there would still be some sort of a court system with the remaining crime. but a anarchist society would be more complex than the "justice system" we have today
jesselakerr 1 year ago
the transtion period from capitalism to anarchism still remains blurry.
mauroprovatos 3 years ago
nice clip! the songs you select give a great ambiance! I love anarco-primitivism, small communities interacting with many other small communities, and the revelatory power of the natural world.
SubtUtiles 3 years ago
People who criticize anarchism like to bitch and moan about things like this but they don't seem to realize that the current criminal justice system is about as bad as one can get. There's really no redeeming features to it at all and pretty much anything is an improvement by comparison. I'd rather the odd maniac go free than see millions locked in torture chambers for so-called 'drug crimes'.
agenttachyon 3 years ago 5
Yeah, like people who thing that anarchy would simply be violence when really capitalism itself creates violence that we don't see everyday but still happens.
Caltwentynine 3 years ago
I think that capitalism is the chief cause of virtually all violence save for mental illness in society today.
agenttachyon 3 years ago
I would argue that the chief cause of violence is an imbalance of power. Power can be measured in many ways: money, beauty, strength, intelligence, charisma. The problem I see is that humans are naturally selfish and power hungery. Free market capitalism is a method to pit one human's greed against anothers in the hope that they will acheive a mutually benificial agreement. not ideal but also not the worst possible outcome.
mrgne 3 years ago
Yeah but more so money, thus capitalism takes a huge part of causes of violence.
Another advantage to no government is that no wars are declared against other bodies or countries, the only wars are invasions from other countries. I think the author of the video had described how to solve this problem, with small militias that are 100% voluntary.
Caltwentynine 3 years ago
I think that capitalism exacerbates the problem of power imbalance. Free market capitalism would be fine by me if we had real free markets (by definition in anarchist terms there could be no lying, cheating, or coercion of any kind, since all transactions have to be voluntary). Also there's the issue of corporations having hierarchical power structures that are inherrantly authoritarian.
agenttachyon 3 years ago
Anarchistic free market capitalism (as you definie it) will never exist. In order to have this free market the people within it would have to be inheirantly altreuistic to a fault. As for hierarchial power structures; they not only in corporations, but also small bussiness', militias, and even the human social structures. In my estimation, what anarchy asks of the human condition is too much.
mrgne1 3 years ago
I don't believe that we CAN count on altruism, and I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. In my last message what I said was that anarcho-capitalism HAS to be perfect freedom (the anarcho part) and perfect capitalism or the two prior suppositions become mutually exclusive. Again, I'll emphatically state for the record that I am not an anarcho-capitalist.
agenttachyon 3 years ago
than you
crustymethaddict 3 years ago
Hi, great video, make moar :)
QQiro 3 years ago
Very good video, thanx! You make a very good point by saying that we do not know for cirtain what an anarchist "justice system" would entail down to the nuts and bolts. No other society has ever arrived with a fully formed and functioning justice system. Trial, error and precident would have to occure. I also agree with your assesment of the character of crime (or lack there of) in an anarchist society.
IWW610 3 years ago
Very good, thanks for the video. I've been looking forward to it. That last part about offering a set of principles rather than a detailed solution for every case is similar to Chomsky's views.
DuffmanIRL 3 years ago
You said something interesting in this video which got me thinking. You said if there was no inequality then there would be no need for hatred, crime or frustration etc. But right now I have the very morals and respect for people you expect with equality. So why don't I/we apply to this rule? If people were intrigued by the universe they lived in and questioned all authority, etc. We would evolve past this primitive era. I agree with "people need to free themselves" summed it up nicely.
mdkbam 3 years ago
Thanks :) Been waiting for this on a while.
Anarchist09 3 years ago
Been waiting for this one for a while, thanks!
Caltwentynine 3 years ago