Certainly not that he could complain with the outcome of the race. But I've always wondered why John Gosden decided to go with Frankie Dettori on Raven's Pass in the BC Classic when Jimmy Fortune had ridden him in all of his races in Europe? Also often wondered why Johnny Murtagh chose to ride Duke of Marmalade instead of Henrythenavigator? Both were talented horses. But I felt like Henrythenavigator was clearly the better of the two. John Velazquez had to appreciate picking up the mount on HTN.
@GBeret83 Jimmy Fortune was injured so couldnt ride Ravens Pass in the classic. Murtagh always had a soft spot for Duke Of Marmalade, and would have chosen him over anything.
@es123ist, I think you're 100% right about that, my friend. But this isn't the first time Murtagh's been guilty of choosing with his heart instead of his head when he was riding for Ballydoyle. I've been told he had a soft spot for Duke of Marmalade. Which is why Murtagh chose to ride him over HTN in the 08' Classic. He was the same way about Rip Van Winkle. Decent horse. But should've never chosen to ride Rip over F&G in the 09' Epsom Derby, or over Cape Blanco in the 2010 Irish Champion. JMO.
It was a great run by Ravens Pass in the Classic. But I kept thinking Henrythenavigator was eventually going to run him down!! Never quite happened that way, though.
~~ "AND LOOK AT CURLIN GO!!" ~~ where??? ~~ "IS THIS BELIEVABLE?" ~~to barely stick head in front...? yeah it's believable. luv u trev but defntly over the top. if u had to go by trevor's call alone w/out any visual u would have thought curlin passed the lead pack to a 2 length lead into the stretch or sumthin huge
@eg6cvchatch my post has no opposing views regarding yor reply. agree w/everything u wrote, WATS YER POINT? "I UNDERSTAND ~ENTIRELY~" Curlin ran fast enuf to get 6 horses (4 heads apart)grab lead by 3/4 briefly. But never came close to shrugging off or leaving field. Trev dramatic w/out doubt. his call spawned visions of curlin striding away for 2 length stretch lead. Don't have 2 be there to understand the race; but stoked 4 U @ BCC must have been fun 4 U. want 2 get there sumday also
and tiago gallops past every one at the end. i had him to win but im glad he hit the board. he always tried each race until his final races where he had stomach problems. i still think big brown would have won. because this pretty much panned out as a turf race and i think big browns better surface was the turf imo.
@reverberate79 - lol. Big Brown?....loaded up with Snake venom, or some sort of Steroid maybe...MAYBE he hits the Board. His trainer is a disgrace, and we all saw the effects at the Belmont. Or are you gonna say that was a bad ride from Desormeaux, or an injury....... This finish was with out a doubt an exclamation point. If Zarkava had run she would have buried this field, and in the process become a Classic/Arc double winner.
curlin was a good horse..not a GREAT horse, but none the less talented. ppl say he could be compared to secretariat, and seattle slew, cigar, and man o' war...but i must disagree. racehorses these days will suffer for their breeders mistakes in trying to create "fast horses" horses are fast enough going almost 50mph and being able to sustain tht speed...but the specticle of the sport wants to see record breaking times and its sad cause horses break their legs now just jogging..tht shdnt happen
Although Rachel Alexandra has won over synthetics. Rather easily I might add at Keenland when still under the ownership of Hal Wiggins. But this race, Jess Jackson's mighty Curlin, getting beaten by Europe's Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator is exactly why Jackson refuses to race Rachel Alexandra on any synthetic track. Even though she's proven she can win over the surface. Jackson's ego just won't allow another loss of this magnitude for his current "alleged" star. With star used very loosely.
@LetsGetItStartedNow - Raven's Pass - 1:59.23 -2008, Zenyatta - 2:00.35- 2009. 2008 crop was MUCH more stronger then 2009.... She would smoke WHO?....Another Blind Zenyatta Fan.
@Nucleo85Torino - You obviously don't know anything about handicapping. A horse will only do enough to win. The horses don't have a stop watch and going for a track record. They are looking at the horses in front of them. They only do enough to win. If you want to go on time I can show you a few claiming horses with better time than Raven's Pass.
@LetsGetItStartedNow - Ya your right I don't. I simply compared times. Put those two side by side with those times, and Ravens Pass wins by 2 lengths. Did I say they were shooting for a track record?....but being the Expert you are Show me a claimer running 1 1/4m running sub 2:00 Please show me!. RA 2009 K oaks 25 lengths, Plum Pretty Recently winning a Graded stakes by 25 lengths both under a hand ride. I guess that is doing just enough to win huh?. I am not new to the business pal.
I'm always amused by people who make blind comparisons between final times. Speed handicapping assumes that the inherent speed of a track fluctuates based on several factors, such as track maintenance, weather, surface bias, wind speed, material build-up, etc. Furthermore, the final time does not tell us about what happened during the race (e.g. pace, troubled trips, etc.). To Zen detractors, what was her final time in the 2008 Ladies Classic at 9F? Is it possible the track was faster in 08?
@Bigshotism - The pace was exactly the same between '08, and '09 Classic. Raven's Pass came from 9-10 lengths, as did Zenyatta. Ravens Pass's kick would have out finished Zenyatta. RP had a very sharp turn of foot in the stretch. My pick in 09 was RVW, and was shaking my head when he ran up on the lead, or at a times rating just off it. Normally he comes from FAR back, so that race was a toss out for him.
@Nucleo85Torino. My point is that you need to exercise caution in interpreting final times, and not just because of various pace scenarios. Another point of consideration: Zenyatta did 9F in 1:46:85 (with a very wide trip) in the 2008 Ladies Classic. In her previous race on the same track, she did 8.5F in 1:40.30. In neither race did she feel the whip. And in the race prior to that she set a still-standing track record in the Clement Hirsch. Zen was at her peak in 2008 (IMHO).
Another point worthy of consideration. Was the track playing faster in 2008 than it was in 2009? The numbers absolutely suggest this to the be the case. I just went to the official BC website and compared the final times (for the main synthetic track) from 2008 to 2009. Without exception, every race from 2009 had a slower final time (and we're talking pronounced disparities up to 3+ seconds).
shocking call by trevor denman, he done the same with Zenyatta but luckily she got up although she didnt beat much did she, if she had ran in this race I could see her finishing next to Tiago. Bring Zenyatta for the Arc to take on Fame And Glory
What I'd like to know is this. When Tiznow touched off Giant's Causeway and Sakee in succesive BCCs, it was merely loser's excuses when it was pointed out that the Europeans had crossed the Atlantic to tackle a completely unfamiliar surface against America's best dirt horses. But when Curlin gets his tail kicked here ( by horses as untested on the surface as their American rivals) then the surface is a valid excuse. Why is that, I wonder?
@cmcgarth1O Dunno about New Approach. Dont think he would have got past Henry. I tink if Murtagh had of picked Henry for the race he would have won it coz he knew how to get d best out of d horse.
@sheva7anto You dont think he would have got past Herny? For a start New Approach would have been infront of Henry like he was every time they raced, Henry had the pace to get to New Approach over a mile but no chance at 1m2, you need to remember when Henry beat New Approach in the Guineas, New Approach was absolutely screaming out for a trip. He was a better horse than Ravens Pass aswell, the only horse in Europe better than NA that year was Zarkava
@LetsGetItStartedNow It was a stronger race than the one zenyatta won and was run a second faster, Zenyatta missed her chance of a true group 1 test. Her only hope now is that St Nicholas Abbey turns out a wonder horse and she takes him on in the Arc, if that dosent happen then she can never be the horse of the decade
To the " how did rip do against zenyatta ... Enough said " rip van winkle had never ran on the surface and had a split hoof so forgive the run ... Twice over ran very well but is not a champion by any stretch of the imagination and got closer to zenyatta than he has been to a fuly fit ripper... Let alone STS
Like I said I have a lot of respect for Euro horses like Conduit and especially Goldikova but the only horse in Europe or anywhere that I think could give Zenyatta a tough race is STS and IMO she would beat him. Punters who try to rate Z from Timeform or Beyers are totally wrong. Take a look at this video, watch Zenyatta's tremendous long stride in the stretch. Look at her hind legs, she is not only striding longer but faster than Gio Ponti and GP is a great stretch runner.
Right, neither is Gio Ponti. I meant take a look at the 2009 classic video-lol. These comments got off on Euro vs. US horses. Raven's Pass and Henry the Navigator in 2008 showed what the best of Europe could do especially on a synth track. It would be interesting to see what Zenyatta would do on one of the undulating Euro turf courses. Unlikely Z will try turf now but she has the breeding for it.
Europe has some great horses as the 6 breeders cup wins proves, especially with the difficulties involved with shipping such a long distance. Shipping from Europe to win the Kentucky Derby would be hard with a young 3yo in May. A horse like STS might be able to do it. Vale of York ran a great race but racing in Europe and shipping to KY would be tough. He should race in America if he wants to point to the 2010 KY Derby.
gayer999 can you have the respect to write in a good language (i'm french) and 21Sarabi i'm agree it's very hard (imposible?) to see an euro win the kentucky derby but Vale of York did a great race.
OK Zenyatta win and Rip and winkle did a bad race, but in this race Twice over (a good horse in Europe but not a champion, only win the chamion stakes)finished third and he beat your best three years old (Summe bird, Mine that bird) amazing! Goldikova and Conduit two times breeder's cup winners very good performances and i wish Vale of York win the Kentucky Derby in 2010!
Commentator makes a complete tit of himself. "LOOK AT CURLIN GO, IS THIS BELIEVABLE?" What isn't believable is that you've apparantly failed to notice that Dettori is scratching his arse, ready to saunter past the old shire horse whenever he saw fit. Seriously, this guy should never have called another race, he'd get laughed off the course over here.
and he wasnt on lasix or whatever the yeeehah's think its acceptable to dope horses with
anyway STS or RA are far superior to Z
but the real problem is the way flat racing is set up. three of the best horses ever, all within a couple of yrs and they dont race against each other?? connections should hang their heads in shame and remember without the punter all their shit falls apart.
I cant wait to see the europeans embarrass the americans in their own backyard AGAIN! They should think themselves lucky Sea The Stars wont be making an appearance. Everything but the sprints and the dirt races WILL be won by a Irish, English or French horse!
and in terms of flat racing the greatest of them all is yeats. look him up. 4 ascot gold cups. irish horse irish owned irish trained irish jockey. and the best flat jockey of all time is mick kinnane. no questions asked. this year sea the stars mastercraftsman and fame and glory will light up san anita.
dead right sohocube! theres a reason why theres 5 irish horses in the top ten ramked in the world! the irish boys will be too much altogether for the americans in the classic. i mean come on.... what horse can come up against Sea The Stars, Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman besides Fame and glory who's trained in ireland with rip and master!
I am a Rip fan 2 for the classic,u need a milers speed and i think he might be a point or 2 higher in the market than sea the stars.I Think Fame and glory will contest d mile and half turf and being more of a galloper i think thats his race.The tight turns will mean though he might have to head for home early ala soilder of fortune last year but he's different class to him and will win.
i was actually thinkin the same. and with the new pro ride surface it'd suit the two irish boys for the classic! hopefully rip can make a full recovery.... i heard they flew a specialist in from the states to corrct his foot problem. if well and able to think it'll be a two horse race!!
just had a reply from a aussie about a comment i made about d melbourne cup being a handicap and as such hardly a true group 1,and he tells me the uk have only won it twice.since when did Dermot Weld train in d uk.thought u'd like that.
the irish produce the best horses in the world always have whether it be national hunt chase of flat, its mainly due to charlie haughey taking the tax off breeding them years ago, and the likes of vincent o brien. american horses are decent sprinters but in reality most descent from irish horses. kildare is horse heaven. canadian horses?! are ya jokin, who are u.
I dont know if d pro ride surface was an experiment last year or if it is d surface for this years breeders cup,if it is we could see Mastercratsman,The Rip and Sea The Stars line up and i do believe we could have an irish 1,2,3. All 3 i think are better than Ravens Pass.
to be honest i didnt think much of ravens pass... it was a fluek when he beat curlin!!! fame and glory would be nice see over but i personally think its gonna be betwwen rip and sea the stars. i dont think zenyatta or summer bird could match rip van. sea the stars has an extra gear on him so think it'll be the world no1 and 2 duking it out
zarkava lit up paris in d arc,and i agree she's d best we have seen for decades.Its just a small pity we only saw her in her longchamp backyard(+once in chantlly)To have finished off her career in d states and let them all see her rear end go by them would have been nice in d fillies race in d breeders cup.Peeping Fawn would have given her a race on her day she was some filly.
was at the curagh the day peeping fawn won the irish oak.... she showed her class that day!! I know what your saying... no doubt zarkava would have claimed the fillies race at the breeders cup!!! at the moment i think goldikova would be the leading filly in the world! shes running in leopardstown next weekend!
The argument of Europeans against American horses will always rage,but if ye Amerians keep with d pro ride surface for the breeders classic and give us a half decent chance every year our horses will come out on top.
oh and as for pleasantcolony banging on about curlin winning the dubai gold cup... how can you expect any horse that was bred on the turf to perform on the surfaces in the states and dubai. prime example... take Gladiatorus, supposely the worlds top rated this year. he was destroyed at the royal ascot!!
im sorry for american racing fans but if ye were to bring ye're very best over HERE i doubt very much they would be able for the likes of Sea the Stars, Mastercraftsman, Yeats or the up and coming Rip van Winkle or Alfred Noble! its very easy to bring a horse half way around the world for the breeders cup but to get him to adapt to the climate and surrounding in a matter of days before an intense race is another thing! ye will always come second to us europeans in horse racing!
Americans have the best thoughobreds then the Canadian have the 2nd best. And a trainer already brought over his poly track horses over to try royal askot and other tracks they did very well. You have good horses but can you give us a Secretariat? Or a seattle slew?
its actually Ireland then the US 2nd im afraid ha! they did well but didnt win now did they?? oooh we can go that bit further... ever hear of Shergar, duke of marmalade, new approach, the greatest mare of all time zarkava, galileo, rock of gilbratar! then we can cross over 2 national hunt. ever hear of Arkle, Best Mate, Red rum, Istabraq or Mosow Flyer! suppose you never heard of Coolmore or Ballydoyle either eh??? we've the very best thorough bred in the world...its an arguement you cant win!
I'm sorry i don't mean to make an argument, but they won and placed and The top 10 race horses of the 20th century are American and Canadian even the top 20, but no doubt that Ireland has some of the best in the world and please i'm not trying to insult ireland.Or you
and Muhannak, conduit and goldikova won over there last year!! i've seen that listing and its of north america! its like ye're world series in baseball too...not exactly the world!! take a look at the offical ratings of 2009.... you'll see 5 out of the top ten horses are irish with sea the stars ranked number 1!!
Yes the irish horses are doing very good, but you said zarkava was the best mare in the world, i think that zenyatta is the best at the moment, but when i see sea the stars pass the finsh line first in the classic then i will be convinced that he is the best horse in racing but, i think that america has had al the best ones before now, i'm canadian i can't believe im sticking up for America but i do like their horses though. But the breeders cup before this year their are more of us and still is
zarkava timeform was 133 and she was undefeated ... zenyatta is 125! she was probably the best mare in the last 25 years! i personally think goldikova is the best mare at the moment! the breeders cup doesnt determine the best horses in the world! how can you expect a horse to travel half way across the world on a 18 hr flight and adjust to the climate and foreignsurface THEN expect it to run in an intest race to the best it can!! timeform ratings are their for a reason!
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
Zenyatta has beaten NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!! Zarkava won an ARC easily - no contest. Zenyatta has proved NOTHING yet Mr Canada. Dont believe the US hype. You probably watch too much HRTV - Next thing they will be telling you Baseball is really a great game - oh sorry, you Canadians also like a bit of baseball. Ice Hockey is better though
i know what you mean...we're expected to travel over to Santa Anita but yet american horse never seem to turn up for any major european races!!! amazing ha!
Only 2 europeans horses (Arcangues and Raven's pass) wins Breeder'scup Classic since 1984 it's true but any american horse win the "prix de l'arc de triomphe" and the King Goerge since 1920.
One more thing, Curlin never ducked a challenge & showed up everytime & ran with no excuses. I would like to see Curlin run on grass. He probably would have no problem with it. I think dirt separates the men from the boys in horse racing.
are u kidding m8 he ran on turf and got beat by a well past sell by date red rocks. he didnt let himself down on it, so they never tryed again. how do u think ravens pass n henrythenav bt him here on this inbetween surface. he was an out and out dirt horse and was at the very least half a stone better than he showed in this race here. on dirt he would have destroyed ravens pass no doubt.
a dont hink anyone can say it separates the men from the boys, if u want to talk about separating men from boys, bring ure dirt horses over to run 3 mile roon cheltenham....
If I remember Curlin did go to dubai & won the cup. He handed their ass to them there on foreign soil. He could run anywhere & proved it that day. So what he has a bad race in '08 Breeders, does that negate all his awesome victories b4 that. I think not. You guys from overseas are just jealous that the U.S. kicks your butt everytime you come over here & try to beat us. Our horses on dirt are superior. Remember John Henry he won on turf & dirt. Secretariat won on both.
Good job by Raven's Pass. Europeans need to relax and face the facts.
Curlin was 2008's best horse, sorry, it takes more than 1 race to be best. You can maybe win an argument with me but good luck arguing against the facts.
breeding is relevant in this day and age as horse bred anywhere in the world can end up training the otherside of the world, smart arse. you only have to look at the goldophin/darley operation. i think youre another bitter yank who thought they had a great horse in Curlin and hates to admit that he was outclassed by a brit. just like many of the yank horses at the breeders cup. funny how yank horses very rarely win anything when they're not on their own soil.
Not quite.... because we "Yanks" do alot better than you fuckin "FOG HORNS" in Dubai..... and we are not that bad in Japan either.
And for your info I have never been a too high on Curlin. But I have to give him credit for showing up everytime. Basically, Ravens Pass did to Curlin what Manila did to Dancing Brave.
Shawn145, sounds like sour grapes.....Curlin was no Dancing Brave, who was clearlyover the top at Santa Anita, and what is a foghorn...is that not an American tourist?
And Ravens Pass will never be Manila either. Again, I am not a Curlin fan, but he was a better dirt horse than running on these bullshit sythetics.
Pro Ride and polytrack have to be the most false race surfaces I have seen. I have no gripes about Cushion or Tapeta. But oh well.... On to the 2009 BC... well see what happens.
Curlin, trained by one of the alltime great cheats in training and illegal drugs used, ASSmussen. LMFAO
American horses are drug free????? Hahahahaha - do the names DRUGtow, Mullins, ASSmussen, Pletcher and a "slew" of others ring a bell?????? LMFAO retard yanks. Euros dont even race on the dirt and they still do well in the US's best durt races. How many US turf horses come over to Europe and do well?????? Hahahahahaha retards. :-)
Curlin ran a bad race he went to early is all, still the best horse ive watched in years, you guys wait till you see overdose the hungarian horse this year, THE fastest horse ive ever seen.
The European horses were just as unaccustomed to this surface and were at the end of a long season. On her Arc form, Zarkava would have slaughtered the entire field. As for Curlin not being able to "dig into" the synthetic surface, he didn't seem to be having any trouble in doing so when he made his move for the front. More whining Yanks!
Yeah, whiny like the Europeans were when Tiznow dug in two years in a row to win the classic? Raven's pass ran a good race, but you guys always have to rub it in. Curlin is still the all time money winner and he destroyed all horses in the Dubai world cup.
Good job by Raven's Pass. But the Americans and Curlin get the last laugh...
Curlin drug free in 2008. ... thank you.
American Horse of the Year (2007, 2008)
World's Top Ranked Horse 2008
Timeform rating: 134 Curlin was 2008's best horse, sorry, it takes more than 1 race to be best. You can maybe win an argument with me but good luck arguing against the facts.
why does it matter that Curlin was drug free in 2008? was he not drug free the previous year? or where his competitors doped? if US racing is so rife with doping it makes a mockery of your whole racing industry
Most of Curlin's competitors in America were doped. Yes, I agree, it is a mockery, and I hope it is fixed soon.
All these Europeans hating on American Horses makes me laugh. Do you think so little of your racing that you have to say all you can about 1 race against our best on dirt racing on a synthetic surface. Ravens Pass ran well and won a good BIG race. but so sorry Europe. According to the experts CURLIN was the best in 2008. Horse of Year. 134 TImeform. have a nice day
So there we have your admission that US racing is a mockery. And your argument of the race being on the wrong surface, would you prefer it to be run on dirt which is scientifically proven to be far more damaging for the horse? maybe thats why US horses have to be doped? so they can cope with the strains put on their bodies due to the greediness and ignorance of the US racing industry towards the welfare of the horses?
I would say treat the Timeform ratings a little cautiously, they're not always the most accurate, eg placed New Approach above Zarkava last year. Where was Curlin rated on America's handicap? (Is there one?)
i doubt ure qualified to be telling timeform how to do there job when u dont even know if theres an american handicapper. new approach's performances in the derby and champion where 2 of the best i seen last year, he was the only horse in europe who had a chance of giving zarkava a race in the arc, and what a race that would have been. i wdnt have opposed zarkava but timeform are obviously taking in to account wieghts, horses beat, times and all the rest. new approach wasny far away from zarkava
Fair enough, I've only got involved in Flat racing (especially International) over the last year, but having read many other comments on forums, and seen for myself, I don't fully trust Timeform ratings. But if you're going on strength of opposition beat, then Zarkava beats NA every time. It would have been fantastic if they raced though, I never understood why Bolger kept NA out of the Arc.
he never went for the arc because he got injured after the derby, which was worse than ever got out in the press. decent cum back behind the duke, then was no were near his best in the irish champion so he didnt know if he was back to the new approach who won the derby, so went for the easier option of the champion at newmarket instead of takin on the filly of the century. i think if bolger knew what new approach would have dun in the champion he mite have took a chance in the arc
hink thats just the way he is with our press, look at all the comotion before the derby which put alot of ppl off new approach, not me...had all ma money it bar about a 10er for a few pints. 4 last cummin roon tattenham corner, wall of horses in front, nowere to go, am about to slit ma wrists at this point when the gap appeared and what a turn a foot, the rest is history haha horse is immortal in my eyes
Yea, Tiznow did dog 2 of EUROPE BEST. But idiot Europeans no nothing about about Santa Anita. Thats why it took so long for them to win a BC turf race at Santa Anita. I think they are sit whiny about that DANCING BRAVE thing.....lol
@bige1169 "You guys always have to rub it in". Really? I'll remind of what that gobshite commentater screamed after the Tiznow-Sakhee battle: "Tiznow wins it for America!" An embarrassment.
@bige1169 big deal get your horses to come over to real racetracks and you see beyond your little redneck dog tracks. get out into the world my little colonial friend - dont stay cooped up in your liittle home. typical of you to believe a horses status is related to money - perhaps we should have a ten million dolllar race run at a crap track and u lot would think he is the new secretariat
Go Between died in January after a workout one morning. His workout wasnt his usual effort, and they found him to have an elevated pulse that wouldnt go down, and a few hours later he just died.
LOL. Unfair of a race? The Euro's was at a disadvantage for years up until last year and they still brought there horses over and gave it a shot. Once 2010 comes along the breeders cup will be back on dirt and it can be on "even" surface. LOL
yea...it isnt as fair. some horses that have never run on it throw in complete duds and just cant handle it. i think it makes for a lower quality race. Ravens pass better than curlin...cmon.
So what your saying is it's fair for the euro horses who have never run on dirt to come over and try and race. but it's not fair for for the us horses who have the option to run on synthetics? Euro horses don't have an option to run on dirt.
if they don't think they have a shot then don't come. i obviously am biast for american horses. this is our event in our country. the horses i see all year are the ones i wanna see excel on racings richest day.
Amazed to see that people are still arguing over this: Raven's Pass travelled thousands of miles, to race on a surface he had never encountered, over a distance he had never encountered, and annihilated the best horse in America. But apparently it was the "wrong sort of dirt", so it doesn't count!
Hands up anyone who thinks that Curlin would have beaten Zarkava in the Arc de Triomphe, which would have been an equivalent achievement.
Thought not- he would have been lucky to avoid last place.
i wonder how brianshaw feels about the HOY awards. i must say i am very happy about it and it is very good to hear zenyatta will stay in training. congrats to all the award winners from someone who loves this sport above all others.
"and look at curlin go!! is this beleivable?". oops, shocking commentary. anyone could see that curlin was struggling way out. ravens pass is a legend, finally learnt to beat the duke of marmelade, and beat one of the worlds greats aswell. shame RP has retired
If we want international racing, we have to agree on a surface and a drugs policy. Polytrack is much kinder to the horse's physiology. And drugs.........giving any animal drugs to make it run faster is simply wrong and wont help the breed.
big brown would've won this race especially with how the early pace went. PERFECT for big brown, he would've been in the front in perfect position, he would've had a perfect trip.
If horse races were exclusively run and won according to ratings and what 'should' happen based on past form, they wouldn't bother running them would they, they would already know the result. I love it when people say 'oh this horse would have won this race' when in reality anything can happen in a horse race, I mean the horse might have fucking fallen over in running and died too, but we will never know.
No Curlin lost, fair loss. Raven won. Curlin lost. Raven won. Raven beat Curlin, and another horse did too. they were faster and its time you would accept it. I know its hard inda how I feel about Big Brown winning the Derby and Eight Belles loosing. Even though I kinda have evidence on Eight Belles loss I have to accept the loss, but that is not the loss. Its the death. Just be happy that your precious Curlin is still alive!!!!
I believe Zarkava has the strongest from for 2008. She slammed Goldikova at 1m breaking the french 1000 guineas record at a canter and then wins the arc beatin multiple group 1 winners without being shown the whip. Two excellent performances at trips at different ends of the stamina scale. You will be lucky to see a better race horse in your life time letalone a filly
Timeform no.1 or winner of the $5m Breeders Cup Classic? No brainer that. Scant consolation for fluffing his lines when it really mattered me thinks. People will remember him being upstaged by Ravens's Pass a lot longer than they'll remember his timeform rating. Factamundo that.
he is not the real CURLIN if someone is running on the outside of him...remember Rags to Riches beat him at the Belmont(curlin-inside=R2R-outside)and the 2007 JC Gold Cup(Curlin-outside=Lawyer Ron-inside)....2 different scenario, proving hes not the real curlin when running in the rail...
maybe they should put blinkers on the right-eye...
You guys no nothing about horse racing! Even professional racing people agree that he was good in some races. And you all are dumb, just to let youknow, have you even watched Curlin's races? People use this as an excuse to make fun of him, let's see you get fourth in the BREEDERS CUP CLASSIC to Casino Drive, Raven's Pass, Go Between...the list goes on! Curlin is the best horse in the world on DIRT, and an exceptional horse on synthetic and turf...And can't believe you horse haters!
Curlin is not and was not the best horse in the world. He did not run against the best horses in the world. The best horses in the world do not run on the crap they call dirt. They tried him on turf and he was second rate. When he won the classic last year, it was the most pathetic conditions ive ever seen, the best horses dont run on that crap, but he ended up winning and went on to win in Dubai which made him look a better horse than he was. He'd won half his total prize money in 2 races.
Well, talos-the uneducated, Experts disagree with you--- guess who is still NUMBER 1 IN the WORLD???? Yep, that's right CURLIN! TIMEFORM -THE GLOBAL TOP 20
1 CURLIN S M Asmussen, USA a134
2= RAVEN'S PASS J H M Gosden, GB133
2= ZARKAVA A de Royer Dupre, France133
4= BIG BROWN USAa132
4= DUKE OF MARMALADE A P O'Brien, Ireland132
4= NEW APPROACH J S Bolger,Ireland132
7= HENRYTHENAVIGATOR P O'Brien, Ireland131 Looks like your horses from Europe need to face better competition, sorry!
all the european horses mentioned in ur timeform top 7 are 3 yr olds, curlin is 4 and had a longer career at top level...if any of those european horses trained on next yr they'd have a higher rating too!
Running on this surface tells a new story, We all thought the americans were practically unbeatable on dirt (which usually they were) but this is different. It proves that european horses are the best in the world. Weve always had a disadvantage going over there, with the Traveling/time difference/heat/quarantine and everthing else, and our best horses have always ran brilliantly. On this surface it suits our horses better than the dirt crap, yet we are still at a disadvantage.
Stop whining about how the surface got Curlin beat! He was at Santa Anita for a month in prep for this race, Ravens had a morning breeze up! Curlin was beat fair and square by a better horse who may have been regarded a miler, but so was his maternal great great grandsire Brigadier Gerard and he stayed 12f at group 1 level. If Ravens is given a chance to race next year we may come to think that Curlin's performance merits more respect! As does Ravens Pass!
PS- Ravens Pass ran a very good race. I tip my hat to Zarkava and Ravens Pass for a great year, but unfortunately for them a year isnt 1 race or several races against weak competition. Curlin ran on all surfaces this year and according to the EXPERTS, he is the best in the world. Good luck arguing with the Experts from Timeform. Don't waste my time with woulda, shoulda, coulda, FACTS or FACTS, Curlin is the best in the world this year, sorry... have a nice day.
Well if timeform believe Curlin is better than Ravens Pass who didn't just beat Curlin, he was running AWAY from him! FACT! yes FACT! then that is their opinion! Fact is Curlin got thumped! and the whole world saw it!
shaffi- your argument and mine is just conjecture---- THE FACTS are CURLIN Is Number 1 in the world- not my opinion- the experts opinion, and Ravns Pass won by less than a length, lol, on a favorable surface, wow, that is amazing, it isnt, its weak. and the experts agree. CURLIN number 1 in the World, still. He faced better competition this year, and won more and better races. shaffi- are you okay mentally? I mean what part of Curlin number 1 in the world by experts do you not understand?
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Frankie Dettori the best jockey ever !!! he is from Italy
MrItaliano1900 3 months ago
Certainly not that he could complain with the outcome of the race. But I've always wondered why John Gosden decided to go with Frankie Dettori on Raven's Pass in the BC Classic when Jimmy Fortune had ridden him in all of his races in Europe? Also often wondered why Johnny Murtagh chose to ride Duke of Marmalade instead of Henrythenavigator? Both were talented horses. But I felt like Henrythenavigator was clearly the better of the two. John Velazquez had to appreciate picking up the mount on HTN.
GBeret83 4 months ago
@GBeret83 Jimmy Fortune was injured so couldnt ride Ravens Pass in the classic. Murtagh always had a soft spot for Duke Of Marmalade, and would have chosen him over anything.
MANUTD4LIFE171 3 months ago
@GBeret83 I tink wit Murtagh on his back Henry wud hav been unstoppable and wud hav beaten Ravens Pass 4 d 3rd time! Fav horse of all time!
es123ist 3 months ago
@es123ist, I think you're 100% right about that, my friend. But this isn't the first time Murtagh's been guilty of choosing with his heart instead of his head when he was riding for Ballydoyle. I've been told he had a soft spot for Duke of Marmalade. Which is why Murtagh chose to ride him over HTN in the 08' Classic. He was the same way about Rip Van Winkle. Decent horse. But should've never chosen to ride Rip over F&G in the 09' Epsom Derby, or over Cape Blanco in the 2010 Irish Champion. JMO.
GBeret83 3 months ago
'' Look at Curlin Go... ''
Oh dear...
ASupremeOwl 4 months ago
It was a great run by Ravens Pass in the Classic. But I kept thinking Henrythenavigator was eventually going to run him down!! Never quite happened that way, though.
GBeret83 5 months ago
~~ "AND LOOK AT CURLIN GO!!" ~~ where??? ~~ "IS THIS BELIEVABLE?" ~~to barely stick head in front...? yeah it's believable. luv u trev but defntly over the top. if u had to go by trevor's call alone w/out any visual u would have thought curlin passed the lead pack to a 2 length lead into the stretch or sumthin huge
caliwaters88 5 months ago
@caliwaters88 i was there that day. you have to understand that curlin was WAY wide turning for home and passing horses easily as he made his run.
eg6cvchatch 4 months ago
@eg6cvchatch my post has no opposing views regarding yor reply. agree w/everything u wrote, WATS YER POINT? "I UNDERSTAND ~ENTIRELY~" Curlin ran fast enuf to get 6 horses (4 heads apart)grab lead by 3/4 briefly. But never came close to shrugging off or leaving field. Trev dramatic w/out doubt. his call spawned visions of curlin striding away for 2 length stretch lead. Don't have 2 be there to understand the race; but stoked 4 U @ BCC must have been fun 4 U. want 2 get there sumday also
caliwaters88 4 months ago
For all those who say that this played out like a turf race- if it HAD been on turf, Duke of Marmalade would have won.
tigerboy1966 5 months ago in playlist BCBrits
and tiago gallops past every one at the end. i had him to win but im glad he hit the board. he always tried each race until his final races where he had stomach problems. i still think big brown would have won. because this pretty much panned out as a turf race and i think big browns better surface was the turf imo.
reverberate79 6 months ago
@reverberate79 - lol. Big Brown?....loaded up with Snake venom, or some sort of Steroid maybe...MAYBE he hits the Board. His trainer is a disgrace, and we all saw the effects at the Belmont. Or are you gonna say that was a bad ride from Desormeaux, or an injury....... This finish was with out a doubt an exclamation point. If Zarkava had run she would have buried this field, and in the process become a Classic/Arc double winner.
TicinoParadise 5 months ago
Raven's Pass had never gone this far before so his final kick really impressed me. Curlin dropping to 4th right at the end cost me the TRI
bnegs521 8 months ago
Tiago actually gives a pretty good indication of what Zenyatta would've done in this race. The running style, the jockey's racing silk, everything.
But Zenyatta would improve with age and take down the boys in the 2009 Classic.
DanielSong39 9 months ago
time only matters when your in jail. pace makes the race and thats the bottom line
thehonzie1 9 months ago
curlin was a good horse..not a GREAT horse, but none the less talented. ppl say he could be compared to secretariat, and seattle slew, cigar, and man o' war...but i must disagree. racehorses these days will suffer for their breeders mistakes in trying to create "fast horses" horses are fast enough going almost 50mph and being able to sustain tht speed...but the specticle of the sport wants to see record breaking times and its sad cause horses break their legs now just jogging..tht shdnt happen
lizhancock18 10 months ago
Ravens Past is pretty good but, Curlin (my personal fave) was the favorite to win.
Coolchic5673 11 months ago
How was he hyped?
The only time they ever talked about him much was during the Belmont Stakes.
v
v
21Sarabi 1 year ago
I REMEMBER ALL THE HYPE BEHIND THIS CASINO DRIVE..HE REALLY NEVER DID ANYTHING HERE
DartsRme312 1 year ago
Whats the difference dead horses and onions,
I cry when I cut up onions
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
Although Rachel Alexandra has won over synthetics. Rather easily I might add at Keenland when still under the ownership of Hal Wiggins. But this race, Jess Jackson's mighty Curlin, getting beaten by Europe's Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator is exactly why Jackson refuses to race Rachel Alexandra on any synthetic track. Even though she's proven she can win over the surface. Jackson's ego just won't allow another loss of this magnitude for his current "alleged" star. With star used very loosely.
GBeret83 1 year ago
Zenyatta should of been in this race. She would of smoked them
LetsGetItStartedNow 1 year ago
@LetsGetItStartedNow
That's exactly what I was thinking after just watching this race.
elvisfan61 1 year ago
@LetsGetItStartedNow - Raven's Pass - 1:59.23 -2008, Zenyatta - 2:00.35- 2009. 2008 crop was MUCH more stronger then 2009.... She would smoke WHO?....Another Blind Zenyatta Fan.
Nucleo85Torino 1 year ago
@Nucleo85Torino - You obviously don't know anything about handicapping. A horse will only do enough to win. The horses don't have a stop watch and going for a track record. They are looking at the horses in front of them. They only do enough to win. If you want to go on time I can show you a few claiming horses with better time than Raven's Pass.
LetsGetItStartedNow 1 year ago
@LetsGetItStartedNow - Ya your right I don't. I simply compared times. Put those two side by side with those times, and Ravens Pass wins by 2 lengths. Did I say they were shooting for a track record?....but being the Expert you are Show me a claimer running 1 1/4m running sub 2:00 Please show me!. RA 2009 K oaks 25 lengths, Plum Pretty Recently winning a Graded stakes by 25 lengths both under a hand ride. I guess that is doing just enough to win huh?. I am not new to the business pal.
Nucleo85Torino 10 months ago
I'm always amused by people who make blind comparisons between final times. Speed handicapping assumes that the inherent speed of a track fluctuates based on several factors, such as track maintenance, weather, surface bias, wind speed, material build-up, etc. Furthermore, the final time does not tell us about what happened during the race (e.g. pace, troubled trips, etc.). To Zen detractors, what was her final time in the 2008 Ladies Classic at 9F? Is it possible the track was faster in 08?
Bigshotism 10 months ago
@Bigshotism - The pace was exactly the same between '08, and '09 Classic. Raven's Pass came from 9-10 lengths, as did Zenyatta. Ravens Pass's kick would have out finished Zenyatta. RP had a very sharp turn of foot in the stretch. My pick in 09 was RVW, and was shaking my head when he ran up on the lead, or at a times rating just off it. Normally he comes from FAR back, so that race was a toss out for him.
Nucleo85Torino 9 months ago
@Nucleo85Torino. My point is that you need to exercise caution in interpreting final times, and not just because of various pace scenarios. Another point of consideration: Zenyatta did 9F in 1:46:85 (with a very wide trip) in the 2008 Ladies Classic. In her previous race on the same track, she did 8.5F in 1:40.30. In neither race did she feel the whip. And in the race prior to that she set a still-standing track record in the Clement Hirsch. Zen was at her peak in 2008 (IMHO).
Bigshotism 9 months ago
Another point worthy of consideration. Was the track playing faster in 2008 than it was in 2009? The numbers absolutely suggest this to the be the case. I just went to the official BC website and compared the final times (for the main synthetic track) from 2008 to 2009. Without exception, every race from 2009 had a slower final time (and we're talking pronounced disparities up to 3+ seconds).
Bigshotism 9 months ago
@Nucleo85Torino Well those are opinions. This is why there are races. Sadly we will never get to see RVW race Zenyatta...
naridon 5 months ago
shocking call by trevor denman, he done the same with Zenyatta but luckily she got up although she didnt beat much did she, if she had ran in this race I could see her finishing next to Tiago. Bring Zenyatta for the Arc to take on Fame And Glory
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
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What I'd like to know is this. When Tiznow touched off Giant's Causeway and Sakee in succesive BCCs, it was merely loser's excuses when it was pointed out that the Europeans had crossed the Atlantic to tackle a completely unfamiliar surface against America's best dirt horses. But when Curlin gets his tail kicked here ( by horses as untested on the surface as their American rivals) then the surface is a valid excuse. Why is that, I wonder?
5overlord 1 year ago
'LOOK AT CURLIN GO IS THIS BELIEVEABLE' classic alright! lol ffs!
ilikewavingatbuses 1 year ago
lol we won the Mile the Turf and the Classic hahahahah can u imagine american horses winning 3 championship races in Europe on the same nite....never
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
Dont forget, the best two horses in Europe this year stayed at home, Zarkava and New Approach who both would have destroyed Ravens Pass over 1m2
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
@cmcgarth1O Dunno about New Approach. Dont think he would have got past Henry. I tink if Murtagh had of picked Henry for the race he would have won it coz he knew how to get d best out of d horse.
sheva7anto 1 year ago
@sheva7anto You dont think he would have got past Herny? For a start New Approach would have been infront of Henry like he was every time they raced, Henry had the pace to get to New Approach over a mile but no chance at 1m2, you need to remember when Henry beat New Approach in the Guineas, New Approach was absolutely screaming out for a trip. He was a better horse than Ravens Pass aswell, the only horse in Europe better than NA that year was Zarkava
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
What a junk race. Zenyatta should of been in this race.
LetsGetItStartedNow 1 year ago
@LetsGetItStartedNow It was a stronger race than the one zenyatta won and was run a second faster, Zenyatta missed her chance of a true group 1 test. Her only hope now is that St Nicholas Abbey turns out a wonder horse and she takes him on in the Arc, if that dosent happen then she can never be the horse of the decade
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
To the " how did rip do against zenyatta ... Enough said " rip van winkle had never ran on the surface and had a split hoof so forgive the run ... Twice over ran very well but is not a champion by any stretch of the imagination and got closer to zenyatta than he has been to a fuly fit ripper... Let alone STS
defjammcr 2 years ago
the great & powerful Zenyatta
larryzapeye 2 years ago
Who has Zenyatta beaten? I would exceed the char count listing all the G1 winners but the short answer is everyone she has ever raced against.
Oddly enough Naashead actually posted something I agree with - Hockey is much more fun to watch than Baseball - lol
keybender 2 years ago
Like I said I have a lot of respect for Euro horses like Conduit and especially Goldikova but the only horse in Europe or anywhere that I think could give Zenyatta a tough race is STS and IMO she would beat him. Punters who try to rate Z from Timeform or Beyers are totally wrong. Take a look at this video, watch Zenyatta's tremendous long stride in the stretch. Look at her hind legs, she is not only striding longer but faster than Gio Ponti and GP is a great stretch runner.
keybender 2 years ago
Um... Zenyatta's not in this video?
dustywhipp5 1 year ago
Right, neither is Gio Ponti. I meant take a look at the 2009 classic video-lol. These comments got off on Euro vs. US horses. Raven's Pass and Henry the Navigator in 2008 showed what the best of Europe could do especially on a synth track. It would be interesting to see what Zenyatta would do on one of the undulating Euro turf courses. Unlikely Z will try turf now but she has the breeding for it.
keybender 1 year ago
@keybender Thats usually the difference between group 1 and group 2 horses lol......the group 1 horses legs are faster...whats ure point
cmcgarth1O 1 year ago
Europe has some great horses as the 6 breeders cup wins proves, especially with the difficulties involved with shipping such a long distance. Shipping from Europe to win the Kentucky Derby would be hard with a young 3yo in May. A horse like STS might be able to do it. Vale of York ran a great race but racing in Europe and shipping to KY would be tough. He should race in America if he wants to point to the 2010 KY Derby.
keybender 2 years ago
gayer999 can you have the respect to write in a good language (i'm french) and 21Sarabi i'm agree it's very hard (imposible?) to see an euro win the kentucky derby but Vale of York did a great race.
MrDimi76 2 years ago
OK Zenyatta win and Rip and winkle did a bad race, but in this race Twice over (a good horse in Europe but not a champion, only win the chamion stakes)finished third and he beat your best three years old (Summe bird, Mine that bird) amazing! Goldikova and Conduit two times breeder's cup winners very good performances and i wish Vale of York win the Kentucky Derby in 2010!
MrDimi76 2 years ago
Europe dominated 6 victory and 3 of the four best race (Juvenile, Mile and Turf)!
MrDimi76 2 years ago 2
Commentator makes a complete tit of himself. "LOOK AT CURLIN GO, IS THIS BELIEVABLE?" What isn't believable is that you've apparantly failed to notice that Dettori is scratching his arse, ready to saunter past the old shire horse whenever he saw fit. Seriously, this guy should never have called another race, he'd get laughed off the course over here.
5overlord 2 years ago
lol, How did Rip do against Zenyatta?, Enough said...
WOOKSTER8 2 years ago
rip was still a colt
and he wasnt on lasix or whatever the yeeehah's think its acceptable to dope horses with
anyway STS or RA are far superior to Z
but the real problem is the way flat racing is set up. three of the best horses ever, all within a couple of yrs and they dont race against each other?? connections should hang their heads in shame and remember without the punter all their shit falls apart.
gayer999 2 years ago
Actually the Euros did do well but in the end the Americans dominated this year!!
21Sarabi 2 years ago
yuh see u at teh derby ya septic muppet
gayer999 2 years ago
Can you write in English "ya septic muppet"
Also to add there hasn't been a Euro to win the Derby in awhile.
21Sarabi 2 years ago
i am english, ergo what i write is english. or latin :p
gayer999 2 years ago
I cant wait to see the europeans embarrass the americans in their own backyard AGAIN! They should think themselves lucky Sea The Stars wont be making an appearance. Everything but the sprints and the dirt races WILL be won by a Irish, English or French horse!
alifisher 2 years ago
R.I.P Go Between
Barbaro2012 2 years ago 6
@Barbaro2012 ravens pass wasnt even the best horse in england that day, wait for strong suit to do goldikova, then you will be drolling
savill0607 3 months ago
and in terms of flat racing the greatest of them all is yeats. look him up. 4 ascot gold cups. irish horse irish owned irish trained irish jockey. and the best flat jockey of all time is mick kinnane. no questions asked. this year sea the stars mastercraftsman and fame and glory will light up san anita.
sohocube 2 years ago
dead right sohocube! theres a reason why theres 5 irish horses in the top ten ramked in the world! the irish boys will be too much altogether for the americans in the classic. i mean come on.... what horse can come up against Sea The Stars, Rip Van Winkle and Mastercraftsman besides Fame and glory who's trained in ireland with rip and master!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
I am a Rip fan 2 for the classic,u need a milers speed and i think he might be a point or 2 higher in the market than sea the stars.I Think Fame and glory will contest d mile and half turf and being more of a galloper i think thats his race.The tight turns will mean though he might have to head for home early ala soilder of fortune last year but he's different class to him and will win.
TheBroph1 2 years ago
i was actually thinkin the same. and with the new pro ride surface it'd suit the two irish boys for the classic! hopefully rip can make a full recovery.... i heard they flew a specialist in from the states to corrct his foot problem. if well and able to think it'll be a two horse race!!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
just had a reply from a aussie about a comment i made about d melbourne cup being a handicap and as such hardly a true group 1,and he tells me the uk have only won it twice.since when did Dermot Weld train in d uk.thought u'd like that.
TheBroph1 2 years ago
ha dip shit of an aussie!!! left him a comment myself.... just had to haha!!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
Hilarious the fastest horse over a mile is sea the stars he is the top miler!!!!!
bobclare 2 years ago
the irish produce the best horses in the world always have whether it be national hunt chase of flat, its mainly due to charlie haughey taking the tax off breeding them years ago, and the likes of vincent o brien. american horses are decent sprinters but in reality most descent from irish horses. kildare is horse heaven. canadian horses?! are ya jokin, who are u.
sohocube 2 years ago
I dont know if d pro ride surface was an experiment last year or if it is d surface for this years breeders cup,if it is we could see Mastercratsman,The Rip and Sea The Stars line up and i do believe we could have an irish 1,2,3. All 3 i think are better than Ravens Pass.
TheBroph1 2 years ago
to be honest i didnt think much of ravens pass... it was a fluek when he beat curlin!!! fame and glory would be nice see over but i personally think its gonna be betwwen rip and sea the stars. i dont think zenyatta or summer bird could match rip van. sea the stars has an extra gear on him so think it'll be the world no1 and 2 duking it out
pureirish1988 2 years ago
zarkava lit up paris in d arc,and i agree she's d best we have seen for decades.Its just a small pity we only saw her in her longchamp backyard(+once in chantlly)To have finished off her career in d states and let them all see her rear end go by them would have been nice in d fillies race in d breeders cup.Peeping Fawn would have given her a race on her day she was some filly.
TheBroph1 2 years ago
was at the curagh the day peeping fawn won the irish oak.... she showed her class that day!! I know what your saying... no doubt zarkava would have claimed the fillies race at the breeders cup!!! at the moment i think goldikova would be the leading filly in the world! shes running in leopardstown next weekend!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
The argument of Europeans against American horses will always rage,but if ye Amerians keep with d pro ride surface for the breeders classic and give us a half decent chance every year our horses will come out on top.
TheBroph1 2 years ago
oh and as for pleasantcolony banging on about curlin winning the dubai gold cup... how can you expect any horse that was bred on the turf to perform on the surfaces in the states and dubai. prime example... take Gladiatorus, supposely the worlds top rated this year. he was destroyed at the royal ascot!!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
im sorry for american racing fans but if ye were to bring ye're very best over HERE i doubt very much they would be able for the likes of Sea the Stars, Mastercraftsman, Yeats or the up and coming Rip van Winkle or Alfred Noble! its very easy to bring a horse half way around the world for the breeders cup but to get him to adapt to the climate and surrounding in a matter of days before an intense race is another thing! ye will always come second to us europeans in horse racing!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
Americans have the best thoughobreds then the Canadian have the 2nd best. And a trainer already brought over his poly track horses over to try royal askot and other tracks they did very well. You have good horses but can you give us a Secretariat? Or a seattle slew?
BigBrown2332 2 years ago
its actually Ireland then the US 2nd im afraid ha! they did well but didnt win now did they?? oooh we can go that bit further... ever hear of Shergar, duke of marmalade, new approach, the greatest mare of all time zarkava, galileo, rock of gilbratar! then we can cross over 2 national hunt. ever hear of Arkle, Best Mate, Red rum, Istabraq or Mosow Flyer! suppose you never heard of Coolmore or Ballydoyle either eh??? we've the very best thorough bred in the world...its an arguement you cant win!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
I'm sorry i don't mean to make an argument, but they won and placed and The top 10 race horses of the 20th century are American and Canadian even the top 20, but no doubt that Ireland has some of the best in the world and please i'm not trying to insult ireland.Or you
BigBrown2332 2 years ago
and Muhannak, conduit and goldikova won over there last year!! i've seen that listing and its of north america! its like ye're world series in baseball too...not exactly the world!! take a look at the offical ratings of 2009.... you'll see 5 out of the top ten horses are irish with sea the stars ranked number 1!!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
Yes the irish horses are doing very good, but you said zarkava was the best mare in the world, i think that zenyatta is the best at the moment, but when i see sea the stars pass the finsh line first in the classic then i will be convinced that he is the best horse in racing but, i think that america has had al the best ones before now, i'm canadian i can't believe im sticking up for America but i do like their horses though. But the breeders cup before this year their are more of us and still is
BigBrown2332 2 years ago
zarkava timeform was 133 and she was undefeated ... zenyatta is 125! she was probably the best mare in the last 25 years! i personally think goldikova is the best mare at the moment! the breeders cup doesnt determine the best horses in the world! how can you expect a horse to travel half way across the world on a 18 hr flight and adjust to the climate and foreignsurface THEN expect it to run in an intest race to the best it can!! timeform ratings are their for a reason!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Zenyatta has beaten NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!! Zarkava won an ARC easily - no contest. Zenyatta has proved NOTHING yet Mr Canada. Dont believe the US hype. You probably watch too much HRTV - Next thing they will be telling you Baseball is really a great game - oh sorry, you Canadians also like a bit of baseball. Ice Hockey is better though
naashead 2 years ago
Hey I'm not trying to argue im gonna drop this subject, but please don't be disrespectful to my country. I dont make fun of your country. Truse?
BigBrown2332 2 years ago
most great horses race after 3 years old, cough cough zarkava......maybe the owners knew something we dont!
eg6cvchatch 2 years ago
say hello to Queen Zenyatta.....wheres the Rip
1800s 2 years ago
LOL
ZenyattaLuver 2 years ago
Timeform : Sea bird 145-Secretariat 144and i am impatient to see american in longchamp or ascot.
MrDimi76 2 years ago 2
i know what you mean...we're expected to travel over to Santa Anita but yet american horse never seem to turn up for any major european races!!! amazing ha!
pureirish1988 2 years ago 2
Only 2 europeans horses (Arcangues and Raven's pass) wins Breeder'scup Classic since 1984 it's true but any american horse win the "prix de l'arc de triomphe" and the King Goerge since 1920.
MrDimi76 2 years ago
exactly... with the new pro ride surface im sure we'll see alot more european winners in the years to come!!!
pureirish1988 2 years ago
henrythenavigator made up some amount of ground
kopkingstevie 2 years ago
One more thing, Curlin never ducked a challenge & showed up everytime & ran with no excuses. I would like to see Curlin run on grass. He probably would have no problem with it. I think dirt separates the men from the boys in horse racing.
pleasantcolony 2 years ago
are u kidding m8 he ran on turf and got beat by a well past sell by date red rocks. he didnt let himself down on it, so they never tryed again. how do u think ravens pass n henrythenav bt him here on this inbetween surface. he was an out and out dirt horse and was at the very least half a stone better than he showed in this race here. on dirt he would have destroyed ravens pass no doubt.
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
Like I said dirt separates the men from the boys. Curlin was definitely a true dirt horse. I agree he would beat ravens pass on true dirt.
pleasantcolony 2 years ago
a dont hink anyone can say it separates the men from the boys, if u want to talk about separating men from boys, bring ure dirt horses over to run 3 mile roon cheltenham....
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
If I remember Curlin did go to dubai & won the cup. He handed their ass to them there on foreign soil. He could run anywhere & proved it that day. So what he has a bad race in '08 Breeders, does that negate all his awesome victories b4 that. I think not. You guys from overseas are just jealous that the U.S. kicks your butt everytime you come over here & try to beat us. Our horses on dirt are superior. Remember John Henry he won on turf & dirt. Secretariat won on both.
pleasantcolony 2 years ago 2
The Americans are always full of excuses. The fact is Curlin got his ass handed on a plate because Ravens Pass proved to be the beter horse.
The race was in there back yard, so they can't use the location as an excuse, oh i know let's blame it on teh surface.
If it was on dirt RP would still have won.
cfc67 2 years ago
Good job by Raven's Pass. Europeans need to relax and face the facts.
Curlin was 2008's best horse, sorry, it takes more than 1 race to be best. You can maybe win an argument with me but good luck arguing against the facts.
American Horse of the Year (2007, 2008)
World's Top Ranked Horse 2008
INTERNATIONAL Horse of the Year 2008
Timeform rating: 134
Have a good day!
jdgodchaser29 2 years ago
Curlin "best horse in the world"?
from the same country where baseball has a "world series" when only american teams are in it.
American racing is shocking compared to British and most European. Ravens Pass would beat Culin 10 times out of ten.
makadeni 2 years ago
Can anyone name a horse that has won or been placed in Japan, Hong Kong, America, France, Ireland and England?
Ouija Board.
A horse doesn't have to win every race to become a great, it has to win a nations heart.
alifisher 2 years ago
ayaw mog away mga pistiha mo oi. mga amaw
wilszeck 2 years ago
And while yall talking all this Ravens Pass Bullshit....... even though hes based in Europe...... hes BRED IN AMERICA by who??????
Smarty Jones Daddy
shawn415 2 years ago
breeding is relevant in this day and age as horse bred anywhere in the world can end up training the otherside of the world, smart arse. you only have to look at the goldophin/darley operation. i think youre another bitter yank who thought they had a great horse in Curlin and hates to admit that he was outclassed by a brit. just like many of the yank horses at the breeders cup. funny how yank horses very rarely win anything when they're not on their own soil.
alifisher 2 years ago
Not quite.... because we "Yanks" do alot better than you fuckin "FOG HORNS" in Dubai..... and we are not that bad in Japan either.
And for your info I have never been a too high on Curlin. But I have to give him credit for showing up everytime. Basically, Ravens Pass did to Curlin what Manila did to Dancing Brave.
shawn415 2 years ago
Shawn145, sounds like sour grapes.....Curlin was no Dancing Brave, who was clearlyover the top at Santa Anita, and what is a foghorn...is that not an American tourist?
torontoderek 2 years ago
And Ravens Pass will never be Manila either. Again, I am not a Curlin fan, but he was a better dirt horse than running on these bullshit sythetics.
Pro Ride and polytrack have to be the most false race surfaces I have seen. I have no gripes about Cushion or Tapeta. But oh well.... On to the 2009 BC... well see what happens.
shawn415 2 years ago
Ravens Pass - hahahahaha. Not even a dirt or polytrack horse and he dusts americas best. Hahahahahahaha
fenderstratman4567 2 years ago
Dude... where have you been for the last santa anita meet.... Pro Ride favors turf horses and is the most inconsistant of all of the synthetics.
shawn415 2 years ago
Curlin, trained by one of the alltime great cheats in training and illegal drugs used, ASSmussen. LMFAO
American horses are drug free????? Hahahahaha - do the names DRUGtow, Mullins, ASSmussen, Pletcher and a "slew" of others ring a bell?????? LMFAO retard yanks. Euros dont even race on the dirt and they still do well in the US's best durt races. How many US turf horses come over to Europe and do well?????? Hahahahahaha retards. :-)
fenderstratman4567 2 years ago
Curlin ran a bad race he went to early is all, still the best horse ive watched in years, you guys wait till you see overdose the hungarian horse this year, THE fastest horse ive ever seen.
LordPaddy 2 years ago
The European horses were just as unaccustomed to this surface and were at the end of a long season. On her Arc form, Zarkava would have slaughtered the entire field. As for Curlin not being able to "dig into" the synthetic surface, he didn't seem to be having any trouble in doing so when he made his move for the front. More whining Yanks!
Czerniakowska 2 years ago
Yeah, whiny like the Europeans were when Tiznow dug in two years in a row to win the classic? Raven's pass ran a good race, but you guys always have to rub it in. Curlin is still the all time money winner and he destroyed all horses in the Dubai world cup.
bige1169 2 years ago 3
Dubai world Cup = LMFAO. Alltime money means nothing since the purses have gotten so huge. Next idiot step up, LOL.
fenderstratman4567 2 years ago
Good job by Raven's Pass. But the Americans and Curlin get the last laugh...
Curlin drug free in 2008. ... thank you.
American Horse of the Year (2007, 2008)
World's Top Ranked Horse 2008
Timeform rating: 134 Curlin was 2008's best horse, sorry, it takes more than 1 race to be best. You can maybe win an argument with me but good luck arguing against the facts.
American Horse of the Year (2007, 2008)
World's Top Ranked Horse 2008
Timeform rating: 134
Have a good day!
jdgodchaser29 2 years ago
why does it matter that Curlin was drug free in 2008? was he not drug free the previous year? or where his competitors doped? if US racing is so rife with doping it makes a mockery of your whole racing industry
alifisher 2 years ago
Most of Curlin's competitors in America were doped. Yes, I agree, it is a mockery, and I hope it is fixed soon.
All these Europeans hating on American Horses makes me laugh. Do you think so little of your racing that you have to say all you can about 1 race against our best on dirt racing on a synthetic surface. Ravens Pass ran well and won a good BIG race. but so sorry Europe. According to the experts CURLIN was the best in 2008. Horse of Year. 134 TImeform. have a nice day
jdgodchaser29 2 years ago
So there we have your admission that US racing is a mockery. And your argument of the race being on the wrong surface, would you prefer it to be run on dirt which is scientifically proven to be far more damaging for the horse? maybe thats why US horses have to be doped? so they can cope with the strains put on their bodies due to the greediness and ignorance of the US racing industry towards the welfare of the horses?
alifisher 2 years ago
I would say treat the Timeform ratings a little cautiously, they're not always the most accurate, eg placed New Approach above Zarkava last year. Where was Curlin rated on America's handicap? (Is there one?)
feelinghappy89 2 years ago
i doubt ure qualified to be telling timeform how to do there job when u dont even know if theres an american handicapper. new approach's performances in the derby and champion where 2 of the best i seen last year, he was the only horse in europe who had a chance of giving zarkava a race in the arc, and what a race that would have been. i wdnt have opposed zarkava but timeform are obviously taking in to account wieghts, horses beat, times and all the rest. new approach wasny far away from zarkava
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
Fair enough, I've only got involved in Flat racing (especially International) over the last year, but having read many other comments on forums, and seen for myself, I don't fully trust Timeform ratings. But if you're going on strength of opposition beat, then Zarkava beats NA every time. It would have been fantastic if they raced though, I never understood why Bolger kept NA out of the Arc.
feelinghappy89 2 years ago
he never went for the arc because he got injured after the derby, which was worse than ever got out in the press. decent cum back behind the duke, then was no were near his best in the irish champion so he didnt know if he was back to the new approach who won the derby, so went for the easier option of the champion at newmarket instead of takin on the filly of the century. i think if bolger knew what new approach would have dun in the champion he mite have took a chance in the arc
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
Well Bolger should have said that then, rather than saying all that rubbish about the draw!
feelinghappy89 2 years ago
hink thats just the way he is with our press, look at all the comotion before the derby which put alot of ppl off new approach, not me...had all ma money it bar about a 10er for a few pints. 4 last cummin roon tattenham corner, wall of horses in front, nowere to go, am about to slit ma wrists at this point when the gap appeared and what a turn a foot, the rest is history haha horse is immortal in my eyes
dessiesdoneit 2 years ago
Yea, Tiznow did dog 2 of EUROPE BEST. But idiot Europeans no nothing about about Santa Anita. Thats why it took so long for them to win a BC turf race at Santa Anita. I think they are sit whiny about that DANCING BRAVE thing.....lol
shawn415 2 years ago
@bige1169 "You guys always have to rub it in". Really? I'll remind of what that gobshite commentater screamed after the Tiznow-Sakhee battle: "Tiznow wins it for America!" An embarrassment.
5overlord 1 year ago
@bige1169 you yanks think u are all that exist, oh hello curlin,,,,,, oh goodbye curlin
spagsylee 1 year ago
@bige1169 big deal get your horses to come over to real racetracks and you see beyond your little redneck dog tracks. get out into the world my little colonial friend - dont stay cooped up in your liittle home. typical of you to believe a horses status is related to money - perhaps we should have a ten million dolllar race run at a crap track and u lot would think he is the new secretariat
naashead 1 year ago
didnt Go Between break down??
PatriotGirl01 2 years ago
Go Between died in January after a workout one morning. His workout wasnt his usual effort, and they found him to have an elevated pulse that wouldnt go down, and a few hours later he just died.
Nickomas88 2 years ago
If the track was dirt instead of synthetic ......
CURLIN would of spanked all of them even if big brown was there he would of still spanked him too
betuski89 2 years ago
it sux they r usin artificial dirt curlin runs crappy in it damn win boy win!!@!!@!
micailmaggiora127 2 years ago
you can tell Curlin just could not dig in and use that power of his down the stretch...
Keep breeders cup day on real dirt please.
pdenardis 2 years ago
and espn has to get rid of the 200 yds and 100yd markers...it is pointless and completely distracting
porkrollboy 2 years ago
Agreed.
DarwinCharles 2 years ago
i cannot stand the artificial track that they run on now...it favors the europeans and isnt as fair of a race
porkrollboy 2 years ago
LOL. Unfair of a race? The Euro's was at a disadvantage for years up until last year and they still brought there horses over and gave it a shot. Once 2010 comes along the breeders cup will be back on dirt and it can be on "even" surface. LOL
venom518 2 years ago
yea...it isnt as fair. some horses that have never run on it throw in complete duds and just cant handle it. i think it makes for a lower quality race. Ravens pass better than curlin...cmon.
porkrollboy 2 years ago
So what your saying is it's fair for the euro horses who have never run on dirt to come over and try and race. but it's not fair for for the us horses who have the option to run on synthetics? Euro horses don't have an option to run on dirt.
venom518 2 years ago
if they don't think they have a shot then don't come. i obviously am biast for american horses. this is our event in our country. the horses i see all year are the ones i wanna see excel on racings richest day.
porkrollboy 2 years ago
Amazed to see that people are still arguing over this: Raven's Pass travelled thousands of miles, to race on a surface he had never encountered, over a distance he had never encountered, and annihilated the best horse in America. But apparently it was the "wrong sort of dirt", so it doesn't count!
Hands up anyone who thinks that Curlin would have beaten Zarkava in the Arc de Triomphe, which would have been an equivalent achievement.
Thought not- he would have been lucky to avoid last place.
tigerboy1966 2 years ago
i wonder how brianshaw feels about the HOY awards. i must say i am very happy about it and it is very good to hear zenyatta will stay in training. congrats to all the award winners from someone who loves this sport above all others.
realeasygoer 3 years ago
"and look at curlin go!! is this beleivable?". oops, shocking commentary. anyone could see that curlin was struggling way out. ravens pass is a legend, finally learnt to beat the duke of marmelade, and beat one of the worlds greats aswell. shame RP has retired
makadeni 3 years ago
Curlin all the way....
what a great champion
he won HOY - twice(2007-2008)
champion older horse(2008)
champion three old(2007)
marc19ar 3 years ago 2
If we want international racing, we have to agree on a surface and a drugs policy. Polytrack is much kinder to the horse's physiology. And drugs.........giving any animal drugs to make it run faster is simply wrong and wont help the breed.
randykawasaki 3 years ago
Great race! won a cool 800 hundred on ravens pass, one of the best races in years.
dhighway59 3 years ago
big brown would've won this race especially with how the early pace went. PERFECT for big brown, he would've been in the front in perfect position, he would've had a perfect trip.
BrianShaw23 3 years ago
If horse races were exclusively run and won according to ratings and what 'should' happen based on past form, they wouldn't bother running them would they, they would already know the result. I love it when people say 'oh this horse would have won this race' when in reality anything can happen in a horse race, I mean the horse might have fucking fallen over in running and died too, but we will never know.
fuckyall44 3 years ago
that's true. im just saying he wouldve had a really great shot at it with how the race played out.
BrianShaw23 3 years ago
No Curlin lost, fair loss. Raven won. Curlin lost. Raven won. Raven beat Curlin, and another horse did too. they were faster and its time you would accept it. I know its hard inda how I feel about Big Brown winning the Derby and Eight Belles loosing. Even though I kinda have evidence on Eight Belles loss I have to accept the loss, but that is not the loss. Its the death. Just be happy that your precious Curlin is still alive!!!!
thoroughbredrescuer4 3 years ago
I believe Zarkava has the strongest from for 2008. She slammed Goldikova at 1m breaking the french 1000 guineas record at a canter and then wins the arc beatin multiple group 1 winners without being shown the whip. Two excellent performances at trips at different ends of the stamina scale. You will be lucky to see a better race horse in your life time letalone a filly
slavapoulin 3 years ago 2
Agreed. Zarkava was a friggen monster. I would have loved to see her shipped to the BC and absolutely destroy whatever competition she was against.
johnnyg129 3 years ago
her arc win was special, she should have finished higher than new approach in the ranking
makadeni 3 years ago
Breeders cup Turf (classic)....thats why the GREAT Curlin lost!!!...Oh and he did finish between 2 BC turf winners in a G1 race.
superemperador1 3 years ago
One race doesn't make a champion.
TheWatchDawg 3 years ago 5
Timeform no.1 or winner of the $5m Breeders Cup Classic? No brainer that. Scant consolation for fluffing his lines when it really mattered me thinks. People will remember him being upstaged by Ravens's Pass a lot longer than they'll remember his timeform rating. Factamundo that.
Lundenwic 3 years ago
he is not the real CURLIN if someone is running on the outside of him...remember Rags to Riches beat him at the Belmont(curlin-inside=R2R-outside)and the 2007 JC Gold Cup(Curlin-outside=Lawyer Ron-inside)....2 different scenario, proving hes not the real curlin when running in the rail...
maybe they should put blinkers on the right-eye...
Reborn13th 3 years ago
You guys no nothing about horse racing! Even professional racing people agree that he was good in some races. And you all are dumb, just to let youknow, have you even watched Curlin's races? People use this as an excuse to make fun of him, let's see you get fourth in the BREEDERS CUP CLASSIC to Casino Drive, Raven's Pass, Go Between...the list goes on! Curlin is the best horse in the world on DIRT, and an exceptional horse on synthetic and turf...And can't believe you horse haters!
Curlinroxs 3 years ago
Curlin is not and was not the best horse in the world. He did not run against the best horses in the world. The best horses in the world do not run on the crap they call dirt. They tried him on turf and he was second rate. When he won the classic last year, it was the most pathetic conditions ive ever seen, the best horses dont run on that crap, but he ended up winning and went on to win in Dubai which made him look a better horse than he was. He'd won half his total prize money in 2 races.
talos124 3 years ago
Well said!
shaffi1 3 years ago
Well, talos-the uneducated, Experts disagree with you--- guess who is still NUMBER 1 IN the WORLD???? Yep, that's right CURLIN! TIMEFORM -THE GLOBAL TOP 20
1 CURLIN S M Asmussen, USA a134
2= RAVEN'S PASS J H M Gosden, GB133
2= ZARKAVA A de Royer Dupre, France133
4= BIG BROWN USAa132
4= DUKE OF MARMALADE A P O'Brien, Ireland132
4= NEW APPROACH J S Bolger,Ireland132
7= HENRYTHENAVIGATOR P O'Brien, Ireland131 Looks like your horses from Europe need to face better competition, sorry!
jdgodchaser29 3 years ago
all the european horses mentioned in ur timeform top 7 are 3 yr olds, curlin is 4 and had a longer career at top level...if any of those european horses trained on next yr they'd have a higher rating too!
ciaranspiddal 3 years ago
If you follow this list religiously then consider the following:
Big Brown 132
Henrythenavigator 131
I don't know how a horse who beat Curlin got ranked lower than a supposedly overrated Derby winner.
LadyZenyatta 3 years ago
yeah, an overrated derby winner who earned the best ragozin sheet numbers ever. the facts are in front of you.
BrianShaw23 3 years ago
and henrythenavigator beat curlin on a synthetic surface not dirt.
BrianShaw23 3 years ago
Running on this surface tells a new story, We all thought the americans were practically unbeatable on dirt (which usually they were) but this is different. It proves that european horses are the best in the world. Weve always had a disadvantage going over there, with the Traveling/time difference/heat/quarantine and everthing else, and our best horses have always ran brilliantly. On this surface it suits our horses better than the dirt crap, yet we are still at a disadvantage.
talos124 3 years ago
We are unbeatable on dirt. This was NOT dirt. Know your facts.
Ruffian4Ever 3 years ago
That's because many other nations, Britain, France, Australia etc don't race on dirt, so there is less competition than on grass
feelinghappy89 3 years ago
Stop whining about how the surface got Curlin beat! He was at Santa Anita for a month in prep for this race, Ravens had a morning breeze up! Curlin was beat fair and square by a better horse who may have been regarded a miler, but so was his maternal great great grandsire Brigadier Gerard and he stayed 12f at group 1 level. If Ravens is given a chance to race next year we may come to think that Curlin's performance merits more respect! As does Ravens Pass!
shaffi1 3 years ago
PS- Ravens Pass ran a very good race. I tip my hat to Zarkava and Ravens Pass for a great year, but unfortunately for them a year isnt 1 race or several races against weak competition. Curlin ran on all surfaces this year and according to the EXPERTS, he is the best in the world. Good luck arguing with the Experts from Timeform. Don't waste my time with woulda, shoulda, coulda, FACTS or FACTS, Curlin is the best in the world this year, sorry... have a nice day.
jdgodchaser29 3 years ago
Well if timeform believe Curlin is better than Ravens Pass who didn't just beat Curlin, he was running AWAY from him! FACT! yes FACT! then that is their opinion! Fact is Curlin got thumped! and the whole world saw it!
shaffi1 3 years ago
shaffi- your argument and mine is just conjecture---- THE FACTS are CURLIN Is Number 1 in the world- not my opinion- the experts opinion, and Ravns Pass won by less than a length, lol, on a favorable surface, wow, that is amazing, it isnt, its weak. and the experts agree. CURLIN number 1 in the World, still. He faced better competition this year, and won more and better races. shaffi- are you okay mentally? I mean what part of Curlin number 1 in the world by experts do you not understand?
jdgodchaser29 3 years ago