i think tthese numbers arent true showing the balance of sc2.. better zerg players could be stucked in lower leags, so they will have the same or better chances against other raices, even if their oponents have very inferior in skill.
the true representation of balance is top diamond, where zerg players are very rare.
I agree with those who are saying the reaper nerf was unnecessary (and kind of weird--the factory isn't really related to reapers). Roaches were already a pretty decent "soft counter" to heavy reaper play, so increasing the range still helps vs. reapers. Also not so sure about requiring supply depot for barracks. I think the reason for doing this has to do with balancing out 2v2 - 4v4, but I think the game ought to be balanced around the 1v1.
Yikes. I can see moving the nitro upgrade up to factory or using the supply depot before barrack. But both? Why would they do this? I get the feeling terran will have a harder time doing early rushes but then I've never worried bout those.
reapers might not have been used so often in the pro games, but maybe it was an issue for the lower experienced players and this was adressed.
Also, the win statistic between races need to looked at in more details to make a judgement.. eg average game time protoss wins versus zerg or via versa I assume 3-4 gate push often wins against zerg early game, but later, muta harrassment can lead the zerg to win. Might zero out but does not mean game is balanced at all stages in the game...
I play Zerg but i did a dual proxy barracks without making a supply depot in the eneimies base in a corner. during this i made a bunker. I just made marines and won against a Rank 1 Diamond player. Im so pro!
Ok, this does not all touch on the FACT that Marauders do more damage Stalkers to light and armored, and are cheaper than stalkers as well. They have less health, true, but differance in damage and cost is rediculously in favor for them.
Also have you seen the marine early thor builds? They are retarded!!!!! Get about 8 marines, 1-2 thors, and have SCV's repair them. Nothing, from either side, stops this. It is absurd on SOOOOOO many levels, and most definately needs to be nerfed.
If you are going to compare stalkers and marauders head to head, at least include all the features. Stalkers can shoot air, stalkers are WAY faster, and with blink, they are insanely mobile. If the marauder get nerfed like you protoss players want, there is basically nothing terran can do early game to stop an early toss gateway rush.
@Delpifo Marines stop most early air aggression in decent numbers without stim. A Stalkers speed is equivalent to a Marauders speed. With stim, there is no competition. Blink - 99% of the time - won't be researched for at least 8-10 minutes in game, as researching it to early results in not having enough units to stop early aggression. And in all honesty the ability to Thor rush is retarded. In my opinion repair speed to massive needs nerf
Stalkers are "fast" units, while marauders have "normal" speed, so that'sjust not true. Stalkers are also armored mechanical units, which makes marines cost for cost rather uneffective against them. Terrans in general have to use workers to repair mechanical units, while protoss automatically regenerates shields without any effort at all. The zerg has transfuse. Should terrans be the only ones who can't heal their none bio units? Come on
@Delpifo The "repair" is the healing of mech units. In fact protoss is the only race who can't heal any hp. So if you're gonna whine, whine about probes not being able to repair as well.
Terrans are the only race who doesn't heal by themselves. That protoss has an equal ammount of hp/shields makes them alot harder to kill. The only whining i hear is protoss players who cries about imbalance when clearly protoss by all proven facts and statistics is the easiest race to play, and the strongest race in general. Chrono boosted gateway rushes, spam imba photon canon rush early game, spam forcefields+blink midgame and spam psi storm + feedback late game=autowin.
Btw, i do not whine, you do protoss players do. Without any reference to game or unit statistics. I'm laying down cold hard facts. When people claim that stalkers and marauders have the same movement speed, that is just false, and should be corrected. All i was saying is that if you are going to nerf the 1 method for terrans to heal mechanical units, while other races keep theirs, that will cause serious imbalance in the game.
@Delpifo First of all I've never said I played protoss, don't just assume random things just because I don't agree with you. Protoss doesn't heal at all, their shields regen but that's not healing. Yes protoss units are strong, that's why they cost a lot (1 zealot = 2 marines = 4 zerglings) duh?. Is it really fair to say that just cause a T3 unit counter T1 units the whole race is imbalanced? hardly...
Shield or hitpoints, fact of the matter is all protoss units heal half their life with no effort or cost. And yes zealots cost the same as 2 marines, but how fast do you get 2 marines compared to 1 chrono boosted zealot early game? Zealots are also much stronger than 2 marines. If you play the game, you know this. And what T3 unit are we talking about here? Just because templars are tier 3 doesn't mean they should be able to wipe out a 3k mineral army in 2 seconds.
Dude, you are retarded, or you just don't know the game. Not all (most) units that are protoss have a differant shield value from their health. And though it does not take "Effort" it does take ALLOT of time for say, and Archon with 350 shields, ten life, to recharge. It takes aprx. one game second for each shield point, and the unit must be out of combat. Marines are so dirt cheap and really have a proper fighting cost: resource cost ratio. Marauders do not.
@Delpifo If you are losing to earl air aggression you are just a bad Terran player. Scout, use early aggression from your low cost terran units and you can easily see if there is going to early air aggression. 99% of the time the thing to look for is whether a protoss is blocking his ramp with cannons, or you can use a scan, or did you forget about that? Any early aggression at all from a terran player shuts down early protoss air aggression
Who said anything about early air agression? I'm aware that some units have different shield/hp value, some more shield, some more life, but they all regenerate shields automatically. If you can't see the difference between that and having to spend money on a unit to heal, then there's really no need to waste my time trying to explain, because you are just not mentally capable of grasping it.
You seem to throw around alot of oppinions without any backing. Go look at the statistics for stalkers and marauders. Look at the damage. I won't call you retarded, but draw your own conclusion. If you shoot the workers first, the thor is vulnerable. The terran has also taken workers away from the mineral line= lost income. If you don't target fire, then that's your decisision, but don't complain you can't do anything about it, because it's obvious.
i'm a platinum zerg, i find that reapers are RARELY used against me, and when it is used doesnt do justifiable damage, the nerf with barracks after supply depot just decreases chances for cheese which limits terran play which im against. As for factory speed, dont mind it, but virtually makes reapers pointless to get. As a zerg player i do welcome the FG upgrade and zerg building HP, however roaches may be too strong if given 4 range, i suggest that it requires a cheap upgrade during T1
either need to be slower or remove concusive or make concusive non effective against zealots with charge or lings with speed upgrade.
im a toss player and i find the early rauders just so hard 2 deal with because immortal is 2 slow 2 get out and HT's take while to tech 2 and get storm.
i like the roach upgrade needed stalkers pwn em to easy
2v2(3)(4) noticed reaper mass seems strongish so maybe thats y.
my 1st hand experience is that reapers with a decent micro (i.e., using cliffs, kiting) you could take out several opponents in lower team games. I'm plat in 1v1 and just started playing 3v3 which is had a silver rank (got this when i 1st started playing). I know my skill level is significantly higher, but with proxy reaper build hitting the oppo around the 4 min mark i'd win games at least 75% of the time. I do think they should figure out a way to make them somewhat useful later
Crota Please help me to tell blizzard that queens need to have an auto spew! Its ruining zerg how they have to micro every quees to spew that stuff.. I am scared to have 4 bases and will never play zerg again because of this. Its not part of what this game is. Redundant
ah gaaad, honestly? reapers can be easily deflected with an early stalker or queen, even speed lings. now they wont be used at all in early stages of the game (not mid/late) even. this practically remove them from the game. Is Terran still gonna be too Op for you guys now? what the fudge is gonna please you terran haters??
I hate terrans. Tanks, marauders, medivacs, ghosts... I hate the polyvalence of this race. And yeah, of course, I hate it probably just because I'm a platinum noob...
@wunil Zerg were always a harder race to play. It is silly to complain about that. They were always going to be a very micro intensive race that great players can do insane things with. That doesn't mean Terrans are OP or that Zerg are UP. I do agree with the roach and building health buff.
@kathicII actauly i playd bw and had a b- wiht my zerg and i found it more macro intensive but then agin i usaly have 2 to hatch spire to 5 hatch hydra vs toss and most ppl i playd were toss not realy micro orientarted for me i mean snipeing observers so ur lurkers cna stop the + 1 zeal push was the hardest micro i had to do
in stead of a reaper nerf, i have a recommendation. Make a marauder speed nerf. They get across the map way too fast, and they show up just as soon as the reaper harass is thwarted. If you slow the marauder movement speed, the concussive shell upgrade becomes more potent, and the standard follow-up to a very annoying early game harass is nullified, and things balance out quite a bit :-)
the reaper change is absolutely ridiculous because no one really uses reapers mid/late game, which means that by the time u get factory, nobody ever will get the upgrade for reaper speed - because by that time reapers are pretty much useless.
And i agree that reapers are not abused all that much - by the time u get 3-4 reapers, zerg will have queen, toss will hv stalker. you just need one queen or one stalker around ur mineral line and that can hold off 4 reapers pretty easily.
the reaper change is absolutely ridiculous because no one really uses reapers mid/late game, which means that by the time u get factory, nobody ever will get the upgrade for reaper speed - because by that time reapers are pretty much useless.
And i agree that reapers are not abused all that much - by the time u get 3-4 reapers, zerg will have queen, toss will hv stalker. you just need one queen or one stalker around ur mineral line and that can hold off 4 reapers pretty easily.
So Terran has a 50% win ratio against other races and they are nerfing them? Sounds good. Here is a list of more Terran nerfs I found out about. - missle turrets are too strong. They no longer fire. Or detect. Also, siege tanks don't have a normal mode. They pop out of the factory in siege mode unable to be moved. Reapers are still to strong too. They now do 2 damage to all unit types, and move at half speed. And they can no longer jump cliffs. And they die right when you train them.
@shadoxe Brilliant. Sheer beauty of analogy *applauds* Lets add to it that all Terran units uncontrollably dance when built, just to make sure none of this really noobish, OP, terran race specific right clicking, moving and attacking doesnt happen. Cause when they do that, its just so unfair to everyone else. And barracks is just another silly word for Pinata! So now when you build one, a bunch of kids come out and beat it down instantly, and the fallen candy heals enemy units.
You are making a critical mistake in your analysis of the statistics.
They don't take skill level to account, they use RANKING, which is totally different. Terrans of lesser skill get a higher rank than a zerg or protoss. This will make this type of statistics just about balanced in almost every single scenario.
Only in the top 10 (or so) we actually can see the real balance. The skill level of those players should be about equal, and there we can see the balance.
@japphan (I HOPE SO BAD THAT YOUTUBE WON'T MESS UP THE FORMAT OF THIS) EU: US: KO: SA: Taiwan T: 6 6 5 4 3 P: 2 3 3 4 6 Z: 2 1 2 1 1 Out of the 50 spots we have: 7 (14%) Zergs in top 10 on these servers. 24 (48%) Terran 18 (36%) Protoss (+ 1 random player, what a hero) Zerg had no top spot in any of the servers. This shows that Protoss is balanced, Terran overpowered and Zerg is underpowered. Statistics lie if you do not analyse them correctly.
Out of the 50 spots in the 5 top 10 places of top 200, we have:
7 (14%) Zergs
24 (48%) Terran
18 (36%) Protoss
(+ 1 random player, what a hero)
Zerg had no top spot in any of the servers. This shows that Protoss is decently balanced, Terran overpowered and Zerg is underpowered. Statistics lie if you do not analyse them correctly.
@japphan I would analyze it for different regions as the US is known for having really bad zerg players which skews the top 200. Even so, a zerg still won the GSL against the best terrans in the world.
One thought that I personally like for reapers that I discussed way back in the days of beta is move the nitro packs to the Factory but give the Reapers the ability to use their normal weapon attack while moving, similar to a phoenix. Dual pistol - flying through the air shooting like mad. This allows Reapers to maintain usefulness against lings since they don't have to stop to shot.
GoldenZealot21 is a good example of a bronze scrub who talks sh't to pretend he's good. I mean take a look at your own comments. Aren't you even embarrassed? protos and zerg are all skilled because they play something that's not in the campaign?
/facepalm.. The numbers speak for themselves. Nobody cares about a scrub's opinion when we have facts.
i like the zerg buildings change... But the roach with more range will be sooo strong, and the reaper change will be devastating... Reapers aren't getting nerfed; they're getting removed from the game without actually being removed.
i agree for the zerg upgrades, as for reapers, think they should juz increase the build time not the build order. Juz worried that terrans might have problems dealing with some early rushes, but in the end, it still depends on how a player plays.
most players new to SC overall play Terran. Why is that? Because umm... you play the whole campaign but 4 missions as Terran. I'm sure most new players skipped the last 1 or 2 Protoss missions. So they go online, and all they know is Terran, so they play Terran. These noobs are found throughout Bronze-Plat and even in Diamond. Of course they will fail against more experienced players who play Protoss and played in the beta. At the pro level and higher diamond, Terran is obviously OP.
Protoss is screwed early on, especially on maps with backdoor rocks. You'll be forced to go mass stalker early on by default and then proceed to being raped with lings/mutas or just ling-infestor. This is hilarious, what is blizzard thinking? All they want is to see more people play zerg - that's not the way to ease people into the race and make it more popular.
one thing i like to see they nerf is marauder's dmg towards structures ... it gives me frustration whenever i see marauders walk into my expansion stim take out nexus then walk home, with or without medivacs ... 2 or 3 cannons dont stop them from coming
If they want to keep the reaper in the game at all after this patch then they need to do something like add an upgrade to boost their HP or lower their cost. I know blizzard is trying to push reapers into the mid-late game, but that just doesn't work. They're too weak and gas heavy for serious late game harass, Marauder drops are way better. Also, if they want to increase roach range that much they should cost a little more.
They may as well have just taken the reaper out of the game with this patch, nobody uses them after the early game anyway. Blizzard needs to stop listening to bitches like idrA and look at those win stats. ZvT seems pretty balanced right now in all the leagues, if the concern is too few people playing zerg then just make them easier to macro with, maybe make larvae autospawn so you don't have to keep remembering to use the queen.
wow this is just unfair....i never liked reapers anyway but this is just overkill. whos even gonna bother making reapers now. and the supply depot before rax is a bit unfair imo...especially since terran is already having lower percentage win chances...blizzard is actually doing all this just because of a bunch of whining players who lose to terran once. im so dissapointed. ive already stopped playing sc2 for a few weeks now. too disappointed
I think the early game nerf makes reapers useless, b/c it is just used in the early stages of the game.
They are not used in mid or lategame anyways, Blizzard should include some kind of mid/lategame option for reapers instead of nerfing them out of the game.
imo with the roach range up it became already harder to do reaper/stalker micro against roach, so that'd neutralize their base damage, that's one counter possibility, i'd left the possibility of early reaper rushes in the game (so i disagree with the supply before rax idea) but instead i'd put a research in for D-8 charges, so that reapers cannot nuke out buildings so early on, still may be able to do early economic damage, but could not take out tech/main buildings early on.
I agree with you. I am a zerg player and I can handle reapers just fine since the last patch. This nerf is too much for terran. Reapers are the only way a terran player can game map control early on besides maybe a bunker rush which is also easier to deal with since the last patch. Reapers are only good early on. I have yet to see a pro use reapers in mid to late game. Sure you could use them later on for hit and runs on exps but marauder drops are way more effective.
"Absolutely absolutely change the game in a significant way" is an overstatement.
It prevents the rax, raf, depot build and nothing else. The simple fact that you face a terran forces toss to go pylon gate cyber stalker, even thought you might not want to make a staker. If you don't, that's when you get a reaper killing all your probes and kiting your zealot.
It's not possible for the other races to go 1.5 as fast as terrans do with reapers. I like the change.
Here's an idea, since Reapers will no longer be able to used as a rush unit, give them more health, since they don't survive more than a couple seconds in battles. They are useless right now, and will be a unit I will never consider using now that they are further nerfed. Another idea, void rays need to be air to ground only, and give phoenix a slight damage buff. I like the Roach buff, and Zerg building buff. Hydras need a speed upgrade though....
The problem with void ray being air to ground is that toss has the weakest anti-armor-air units.This means without voidrays, broodlords and BC will dominate even more. I agree with the reaper HP buff, maybe even increase the reaper's moving speed in the jet upgrade.
i dunno...i'm not really a huge fan of zerg because the units seem a little bit boring to me compared to other races. i miss lurkers..they were pretty badass looking.
I definitely like the increase health to zerg buildings. The supply depot is pretty decent change too. It's like how protoss needs a pylon to power their first gateway first. Marines are probably the strongest early game unit since they can fight zerglings and zealots very well so it's only fair they need an extra building now. This applies to the reapers and marauders too, marauders just beat stalkers and roaches and can train them with as many required tech buildings as a zerg
omg STOP NERFING reapers!!! forced SD before rax means extra 30 seconds to make 1 reaper or the first marine. this makes it harder to wall off too cuz u gotta wait for the SD to finish before u can start building the rax. this makes it harder to fend off 6 pool too. building factory before getting speed upgrade? that adds an extra 60 seconds and is just complete overkill on the reaper. there will no longer be any point in having the reaper with this nerf. might as well bring back the firebat
Also, I'd like to add that blizzard should look into increasing the cost of concussive shells and adding build time to this upgrade. The unit itself doesn't need a nerf but the concussive shells upgrade do.
I agree with most of the changes here except reaper speed upgrade. I play a lot of team games and mass reapers is actually a pretty popular build. However, needing a factory to upgrade reaper speed is a bit too much. By doing this, you're discouraging players from using reaper's and making them almost useless. A reaper/hellion combo is a possibility, which I've seen being used but again.. adding the build time to reaper speed would of been a better choice.
Een though I play protoss and zerg, I think that terran is getting just beaten to death. Like Crota said, Reapers already got their build time nerfed. Why beat the dead horse even more by forcing you to build a Factory to get the speed upgrade? And who in their right mind would think that forcing supply before rax was a good idea? That just takes away another option from the early game. I think that most of the patch will be fine, but the reaper nerf and forced supply bofore rax were awful ideas
i dont agree with a single one of these changes whatsoever, blizz needs to calm the fuck down and wait a few more months before dropping another balance patch
is the marauder like a Dragoon on BW? not a chance in hell. marauders would beat goons in no time. i would remove concussive shells completely and lower their hitpoints to make it close to a BW firebat so if you want marauders in your army you would have to worry in keeping them alive
in a more indepth unit analisis, i would talk about the marauder. i see it like a wc3tft naga sea witch with no mana requirement, with low food cost and obviously with no unit limit. how would a unit like that work in wc3? it would mess everything up.
too much hitpoints, and the only passive offensive ability in the game, good damage and Stim. its a powerhouse that costs 2 supply and almost no gas.
to defeat gateway pushes on BW a terran had to tech to vultures, make some, lay some mines, keep the vultures alive against dragoons, then get some tanks to start slowly pushing, while whatching for dark templars, dodging storms, and always worried about a reaver drop.
in sc2 to defeat a terran if you are protoss its not on skill(micro) its on terran mistakes pretty much
SC2 skill cap is just too limited compared to in BW. In SC2, everyone can become a pro instantly as long as you're smart enough to do the correct build order. Blizzard should make the game harder and more rewarding to those who trains a lot. Watching Idra beat boxer in sc2 makes me sad.
@kleash that why i didnt even bother to buy the game :P i still play BW on usEast though. i get my ass kicked sometimes, but its way better than star"forthemasses"craft 2 ".
two things ill like to say: first those numbers could be made up. it wouldnt be the first time a company modifies their numbers to be more appealing.
secondly, terran not sure if the word is OP but they have a lot EASIER time when playing. some people have been saying that now terran is the "strong" race like protoss was in BW. But if i remember correctly, protoss didnt have such an easy time like terran have now
interesting win % numbers. As a protoss I usually win all my games against P and Z but am constantly getting my arse kicked by Terran. All the other people crying "Terran are OP" on here seem to have the same problem.
Oh, and 1v1 TvP reaper harass is a non issue. Don't know why they did that as I think the reaper is a really cool unit.
Well with an other nerf to reapers, it will prevent the terran players to try get the advantage early on, especially in maps like Desert Oasis, imo reaper harrasment will be impossible in the start of the game as soon as this patch goes out. I do however agree that terran was and still is a powerful race (and I am also a terran player). And even I agree on certain nerfs, but keep nerfing one unit, first increased time built to a total new requirement, in addition, well I think its a bit overkill
@ric0h u can still build anywhere its just that u need 1 supply depot on the map in order to get a barracks, which really isnt much of a disadvantage (unless u cheese with reapers)
@TheThatguyoverthere no, I play random (at least I try to). It's not that it "pisses me off" it's just that I dislike the fact that this sort of takes away some of the flexibility of T. Personally I don't like reapers. Without reapers we would still have medics (and I would much rather have them :) ... but alas....).
hmm ... i think all the changes are ok ... just the thing with the depot is somehow stupid ... cause well ... it reduces the variety of the game ... and that's not only a terran-nerf ... IT ACTUALLY "NERFS" THE GAME
it's just my opinion ... well i am a little nooby compared to professional gamers and ofc and cant predict if it will have such a big negative effect to the game ... but i guess there wont be that much proxy action by terran anymore and this definitly would be bad.
@KiriNoKitsune srsly you really are a little slow understanding ... in diamond it is balanced 50-50 pvt but in all other leagues protoss has a 6 to 14%!!! higher win rate than terran in pvt (look at 2:22) so before saying something stupid, think about the facts, thx
skill for starcraft arent cheese this will make me play the game again, im zerg rank 1 and i dont play for 2 mounths cause the game is cheese has hell, this will make the game macro more like and not a warcraft in space with 12units army only to win
The problem with reapers is that they are too situational.. they basically are only used in the beginning of the game to harass, and that's it. Well, they are in the games I've seen anyway. They're glass cannons. The solution, I think, is not to make them even harder to use in the beginning, but make them a viable (and balanced) unit throughout the game.
it feels so wrong what blizzard is doing!! they nerfed the reaper, just to nerf that unit again, to nerf the whole race dramatically + to nerf all hard counters as well...some of the decision makers must hate the terran race....LOOK AT THE F%"&%?! NUMBERS INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO CRYBABIES
so blizzard...that is whats going to happen: PvZ all the time...
I don't really see why I should ever build a reaper now. The supply before rax is also a completely unnecessary change. Blizzard should look at the numbers instead of listening to whine choirs about terran OPness.
Zerg changes are very nice also. Keep in mind that reapers CANNOT outrange roaches anymore, so the reaper nerfs are so unnecessary...
@GGBlind ??? protoss is already winning much more often then terran in pvt and you want to nerf terran even more? Why? Ohh, right because you are Protoss and want to have an even more easy time --> look at the numbers in the video
When looking at the winratio, be ware that the match making system forces the winratios to be equal! This does NOT mean, than Terran is not OP vs Zerg!!!
You fail to realise that Zerg who are in Diamond are extremely good players, where as Terran is such an easy race that they can faceroll into Diamond, but still die to good Zerg players.
@ZomgZomg007 Also forgot to add. Since your Terran...you don't see Reaper Cheese. As Zerg...most games where the maps favour Reapers end up with the mass Reaper cheese, then into mass marauders.
what i think of reaper that the last patch alrdy +5 secs on reaper which prevent an early rush for protoss ...but mmm build still very strong vs protoss and ht could counter it but ht ain't cheap on gas... abt zerg.. due to protoss +5 secs on zealots which may cause harder to counter the 6 pool play... except u block ur entrance or early cannon for defence .... that's what i think no offence and im toss player and i don't know how to play other ... just think im posting noob opinion
They do it for faster tech, prevent ling rush. If this passes MORE IMPORTANTLY, this would ban players from using reapers. Everybody knows how to prevent reapers rush. For P, build cybernatics, chrono boost stalkers. SO EASY. for Z, spawning pool then queen.. For T, obviously, 1 marauder. Nobody will use reapers afterwards... it will end up like wraith in SC1... a unit that is for harassing but so fragile
.......... factory requirement... and supply requirement heh.... wow that's gonna so mass up the tactrics used by terran players so much Especially pro gamers... That's just unthinkable since SC1. Think about it. Blizzard apparently doesn't like cheesing :( i mean so many Terran pro gamers from Korea build barracks before supply depot or at the same time.
I like the changes. Its too easy for marauders to snipe out Zerg buildings. Roaches need the range boost because lets face it. The Terran base unit is ranged and is good AA; and the range+micro from marauders is unstoppable. Zerg has no AA bread and butter unit in Tier 1. This means that Terrans dont even need to scout for Air Tech early on. Zerg is the only race that can be instantly GG'ed by early Air.
Depot before rax is dumb. Protoss don't need anything before gates and zerg don't need anything before a pool. If you look at the lower leagues, Protoss is owning Terran. Why handicap terran more?
@dcaudilla A gate needs a pylon, a spaw,ig is 200 minerals + a drone (50 minerals) --> slows the economy so the training of the first zerglings. The supply depot thing seems finally kinda ... normal? ... not sure.
Ofcourse you fail to mention that both zerg and protoss supply units have powerfull properties too? Overlords are basically early map hacks, and pylons lets you magically teleport units across the map. And a terran can, well...lower their supply depot in the ground.
@Delpifo well, and what about flying buildings and the possibility to build everywhere without any constraint? Last but not least, lower a supply depot is huge, a terran can wall his base perfectly without having to actually break it afterward. Yes a pylon is great fot warpgate, but killing a pylon may unpower some buildings. Scouting overlord is great but really slow at the beginning, and a drone or two are generaly requiered anyway. Loosing an overlord is also easier...
I agree, flying buildings are good, but imo, being able to warp in units anywhere on the map with pylons is still stronger because once the proxy is there, you can build whatever you want afterwards. That probes don't need to stay while buildings are being created, combined with chrono boost right out of the gate is also huge especially for early game macro. Yes terrans can call down mules, but you have to tech up to get it.
@Delpifo Finally there are specificities to each race, that's all that is. But it's getting off topic here. Terran can build a barrack faster than other races as their first building. On small maps, when I get barrack proxied, the terran player often has his first marine(s) out before my first zealot, in my base that is... If the proxy fails, he then just has to fly the barracks away. That's the game, and even if I hate terran, I don't really care, as I manage to counter it most of the times.
I play protoss as my 2nd race, and it's mostly a matter of choice if you want to chrono boost out workers for eco advantage early, or use the energy to get out fast zealots. So if you scout early enough, you should have time to get the zealot out in time for a proxy marine push. Ofcourse in team games this can be more tricky, but so is a double 4 gate zealot push on a terran.
So blizzard gives us some stats witch big surprize say that every race wins same percentage(in diamond)...well congrats the match making system works other than that wtf is up with those stats? maybe they should take a look at tourneys pro ones and amateur ones where 6 terans in last 8 or 4 in last 4 is common site.
@MrDucktaper I agree, Honestly I like the barracks requires supply depot, but with that reducing the build time of a reaper back to 40 would make more sense. Also, with nitro packs requiring a factory, I would be surprised to see it ever be used. Once you have a factory down, hellions are much more effective than reapers vs lings or harassing in most situations. Plus they compliment a normal army much better. Reapers are paper cannons, so if they are not micro'd in big battles they are to weak.
the barracks before supply depot cheese is what took TLO out of GSL season 1. I think it's good for competition to balance the game by weeding out the cheese strategies.
Look here's the deal with the terran thing: It's not the percentage of wins, it's the viable strategies. For instance, a terran can sit in tier one-2 units (marines marauders medivacs) while the other races have to tech up and get tons of upgrades to combat it.
The way in witch blizzard approaches things is retarded.Take the PvT mu for example,i fill this is balanced as a P in top diamond BUT! it is balanced in a really bad way.1 (little) mistake can end the game for me in one of the many early pushes teran can do a good 30% of my games just end in retarded manner (because i was macroing right when he charged the ramp for example).If the game gets in to later stages i feel P is stronger especially in mid game.Player skill is less important cause of thi
I don't think that the supply depot has to stand near the barracks. i think it has just to be anywhere. And usuallay, as terran you build your supply depot on 10 anyways before barracks, so this seems not too dramatic to me.
@nenoveir Why the hell should a zergling, which cost 25 mineral, be able to do damage to a marine being healed by a medivac, which cost 150 mineral and 100 gas?
i think tthese numbers arent true showing the balance of sc2.. better zerg players could be stucked in lower leags, so they will have the same or better chances against other raices, even if their oponents have very inferior in skill.
the true representation of balance is top diamond, where zerg players are very rare.
djivo 1 year ago
they should nerf the imbarauder
skullmanwizard 1 year ago
TAKEN OUT YOUR POWER SAUCE!
danvsyou 1 year ago
I agree with those who are saying the reaper nerf was unnecessary (and kind of weird--the factory isn't really related to reapers). Roaches were already a pretty decent "soft counter" to heavy reaper play, so increasing the range still helps vs. reapers. Also not so sure about requiring supply depot for barracks. I think the reason for doing this has to do with balancing out 2v2 - 4v4, but I think the game ought to be balanced around the 1v1.
drygel16 1 year ago
Yikes. I can see moving the nitro upgrade up to factory or using the supply depot before barrack. But both? Why would they do this? I get the feeling terran will have a harder time doing early rushes but then I've never worried bout those.
warriorfire8103 1 year ago
reapers might not have been used so often in the pro games, but maybe it was an issue for the lower experienced players and this was adressed.
Also, the win statistic between races need to looked at in more details to make a judgement.. eg average game time protoss wins versus zerg or via versa I assume 3-4 gate push often wins against zerg early game, but later, muta harrassment can lead the zerg to win. Might zero out but does not mean game is balanced at all stages in the game...
alexjaus 1 year ago
I play Zerg but i did a dual proxy barracks without making a supply depot in the eneimies base in a corner. during this i made a bunker. I just made marines and won against a Rank 1 Diamond player. Im so pro!
Yoonjin90 1 year ago
Whats the win ratio for Zerg vs Zerg? :)
Yoonjin90 1 year ago
Ok, this does not all touch on the FACT that Marauders do more damage Stalkers to light and armored, and are cheaper than stalkers as well. They have less health, true, but differance in damage and cost is rediculously in favor for them.
Also have you seen the marine early thor builds? They are retarded!!!!! Get about 8 marines, 1-2 thors, and have SCV's repair them. Nothing, from either side, stops this. It is absurd on SOOOOOO many levels, and most definately needs to be nerfed.
mooiamaduck 1 year ago
@mooiamaduck
If you are going to compare stalkers and marauders head to head, at least include all the features. Stalkers can shoot air, stalkers are WAY faster, and with blink, they are insanely mobile. If the marauder get nerfed like you protoss players want, there is basically nothing terran can do early game to stop an early toss gateway rush.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@Delpifo Marines stop most early air aggression in decent numbers without stim. A Stalkers speed is equivalent to a Marauders speed. With stim, there is no competition. Blink - 99% of the time - won't be researched for at least 8-10 minutes in game, as researching it to early results in not having enough units to stop early aggression. And in all honesty the ability to Thor rush is retarded. In my opinion repair speed to massive needs nerf
mooiamaduck 1 year ago
@mooiamaduck
Are we playing the same game?
Stalkers are "fast" units, while marauders have "normal" speed, so that'sjust not true. Stalkers are also armored mechanical units, which makes marines cost for cost rather uneffective against them. Terrans in general have to use workers to repair mechanical units, while protoss automatically regenerates shields without any effort at all. The zerg has transfuse. Should terrans be the only ones who can't heal their none bio units? Come on
Delpifo 1 year ago
@Delpifo The "repair" is the healing of mech units. In fact protoss is the only race who can't heal any hp. So if you're gonna whine, whine about probes not being able to repair as well.
TheLastGinypig 1 year ago
@TheLastGinypig
Terrans are the only race who doesn't heal by themselves. That protoss has an equal ammount of hp/shields makes them alot harder to kill. The only whining i hear is protoss players who cries about imbalance when clearly protoss by all proven facts and statistics is the easiest race to play, and the strongest race in general. Chrono boosted gateway rushes, spam imba photon canon rush early game, spam forcefields+blink midgame and spam psi storm + feedback late game=autowin.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@TheLastGinypig
Btw, i do not whine, you do protoss players do. Without any reference to game or unit statistics. I'm laying down cold hard facts. When people claim that stalkers and marauders have the same movement speed, that is just false, and should be corrected. All i was saying is that if you are going to nerf the 1 method for terrans to heal mechanical units, while other races keep theirs, that will cause serious imbalance in the game.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@Delpifo First of all I've never said I played protoss, don't just assume random things just because I don't agree with you. Protoss doesn't heal at all, their shields regen but that's not healing. Yes protoss units are strong, that's why they cost a lot (1 zealot = 2 marines = 4 zerglings) duh?. Is it really fair to say that just cause a T3 unit counter T1 units the whole race is imbalanced? hardly...
TheLastGinypig 1 year ago
@TheLastGinypig
Shield or hitpoints, fact of the matter is all protoss units heal half their life with no effort or cost. And yes zealots cost the same as 2 marines, but how fast do you get 2 marines compared to 1 chrono boosted zealot early game? Zealots are also much stronger than 2 marines. If you play the game, you know this. And what T3 unit are we talking about here? Just because templars are tier 3 doesn't mean they should be able to wipe out a 3k mineral army in 2 seconds.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@TheLastGinypig
And don't try to say you're not playing toss, because it's so obvious.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@Delpifo
Dude, you are retarded, or you just don't know the game. Not all (most) units that are protoss have a differant shield value from their health. And though it does not take "Effort" it does take ALLOT of time for say, and Archon with 350 shields, ten life, to recharge. It takes aprx. one game second for each shield point, and the unit must be out of combat. Marines are so dirt cheap and really have a proper fighting cost: resource cost ratio. Marauders do not.
mooiamaduck 1 year ago
@Delpifo If you are losing to earl air aggression you are just a bad Terran player. Scout, use early aggression from your low cost terran units and you can easily see if there is going to early air aggression. 99% of the time the thing to look for is whether a protoss is blocking his ramp with cannons, or you can use a scan, or did you forget about that? Any early aggression at all from a terran player shuts down early protoss air aggression
mooiamaduck 1 year ago
@mooiamaduck
Who said anything about early air agression? I'm aware that some units have different shield/hp value, some more shield, some more life, but they all regenerate shields automatically. If you can't see the difference between that and having to spend money on a unit to heal, then there's really no need to waste my time trying to explain, because you are just not mentally capable of grasping it.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@mooiamaduck
You seem to throw around alot of oppinions without any backing. Go look at the statistics for stalkers and marauders. Look at the damage. I won't call you retarded, but draw your own conclusion. If you shoot the workers first, the thor is vulnerable. The terran has also taken workers away from the mineral line= lost income. If you don't target fire, then that's your decisision, but don't complain you can't do anything about it, because it's obvious.
Delpifo 1 year ago
i'm a platinum zerg, i find that reapers are RARELY used against me, and when it is used doesnt do justifiable damage, the nerf with barracks after supply depot just decreases chances for cheese which limits terran play which im against. As for factory speed, dont mind it, but virtually makes reapers pointless to get. As a zerg player i do welcome the FG upgrade and zerg building HP, however roaches may be too strong if given 4 range, i suggest that it requires a cheap upgrade during T1
WakingLife90 1 year ago
@WakingLife90 Whats your BNet ID and number?
geemsean 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
suggest Probe and Drone to cost 250 minerals and 150 gas.
eSuMatix 1 year ago
I suggest Probe and Drone to cost 250 minerals and 150 gas.
eSuMatix 1 year ago
reapers dont need to be nerfed
rauders do
either need to be slower or remove concusive or make concusive non effective against zealots with charge or lings with speed upgrade.
im a toss player and i find the early rauders just so hard 2 deal with because immortal is 2 slow 2 get out and HT's take while to tech 2 and get storm.
i like the roach upgrade needed stalkers pwn em to easy
2v2(3)(4) noticed reaper mass seems strongish so maybe thats y.
maybe 2v2(3) specific nerf
gernie8668 1 year ago
my 1st hand experience is that reapers with a decent micro (i.e., using cliffs, kiting) you could take out several opponents in lower team games. I'm plat in 1v1 and just started playing 3v3 which is had a silver rank (got this when i 1st started playing). I know my skill level is significantly higher, but with proxy reaper build hitting the oppo around the 4 min mark i'd win games at least 75% of the time. I do think they should figure out a way to make them somewhat useful later
ckmost 1 year ago
@wunil ZvZ is my fav to watch. So interesting and so rare.
kathicII 1 year ago
And reapers wont be used any ore, why doesnt blizard just take them out of the game? Its hurting 1v1 because of team games :/
demolicious1 1 year ago
Crota Please help me to tell blizzard that queens need to have an auto spew! Its ruining zerg how they have to micro every quees to spew that stuff.. I am scared to have 4 bases and will never play zerg again because of this. Its not part of what this game is. Redundant
demolicious1 1 year ago
REapers are probably being abused in the lower tiers, bronze, silver, gold as new players might not know how to counter them
miguelmar1987 1 year ago
Instead of doing all this crap to the reaper, make the grenades they therow at buildings a friggin upgrade already!
OfTheNightfall 1 year ago
ah gaaad, honestly? reapers can be easily deflected with an early stalker or queen, even speed lings. now they wont be used at all in early stages of the game (not mid/late) even. this practically remove them from the game. Is Terran still gonna be too Op for you guys now? what the fudge is gonna please you terran haters??
OfTheNightfall 1 year ago
I hate terrans. Tanks, marauders, medivacs, ghosts... I hate the polyvalence of this race. And yeah, of course, I hate it probably just because I'm a platinum noob...
VadimHor 1 year ago
@wunil Zerg were always a harder race to play. It is silly to complain about that. They were always going to be a very micro intensive race that great players can do insane things with. That doesn't mean Terrans are OP or that Zerg are UP. I do agree with the roach and building health buff.
kathicII 1 year ago
@kathicII actauly i playd bw and had a b- wiht my zerg and i found it more macro intensive but then agin i usaly have 2 to hatch spire to 5 hatch hydra vs toss and most ppl i playd were toss not realy micro orientarted for me i mean snipeing observers so ur lurkers cna stop the + 1 zeal push was the hardest micro i had to do
badgescops 1 year ago
in stead of a reaper nerf, i have a recommendation. Make a marauder speed nerf. They get across the map way too fast, and they show up just as soon as the reaper harass is thwarted. If you slow the marauder movement speed, the concussive shell upgrade becomes more potent, and the standard follow-up to a very annoying early game harass is nullified, and things balance out quite a bit :-)
MrJaredblake7 1 year ago
the reaper change is absolutely ridiculous because no one really uses reapers mid/late game, which means that by the time u get factory, nobody ever will get the upgrade for reaper speed - because by that time reapers are pretty much useless.
And i agree that reapers are not abused all that much - by the time u get 3-4 reapers, zerg will have queen, toss will hv stalker. you just need one queen or one stalker around ur mineral line and that can hold off 4 reapers pretty easily.
lamentra123 1 year ago
the reaper change is absolutely ridiculous because no one really uses reapers mid/late game, which means that by the time u get factory, nobody ever will get the upgrade for reaper speed - because by that time reapers are pretty much useless.
And i agree that reapers are not abused all that much - by the time u get 3-4 reapers, zerg will have queen, toss will hv stalker. you just need one queen or one stalker around ur mineral line and that can hold off 4 reapers pretty easily.
lamentra123 1 year ago
@wunil That is a logical fallacy. How do you know shitty Zerg players are not in the Diamond league playing against good terran and protoss?
kathicII 1 year ago
no reaper nerf
nickertyQ 1 year ago
So Terran has a 50% win ratio against other races and they are nerfing them? Sounds good. Here is a list of more Terran nerfs I found out about. - missle turrets are too strong. They no longer fire. Or detect. Also, siege tanks don't have a normal mode. They pop out of the factory in siege mode unable to be moved. Reapers are still to strong too. They now do 2 damage to all unit types, and move at half speed. And they can no longer jump cliffs. And they die right when you train them.
shadoxe 1 year ago
@shadoxe Brilliant. Sheer beauty of analogy *applauds* Lets add to it that all Terran units uncontrollably dance when built, just to make sure none of this really noobish, OP, terran race specific right clicking, moving and attacking doesnt happen. Cause when they do that, its just so unfair to everyone else. And barracks is just another silly word for Pinata! So now when you build one, a bunch of kids come out and beat it down instantly, and the fallen candy heals enemy units.
Pibbmasta 1 year ago
You are making a critical mistake in your analysis of the statistics.
They don't take skill level to account, they use RANKING, which is totally different. Terrans of lesser skill get a higher rank than a zerg or protoss. This will make this type of statistics just about balanced in almost every single scenario.
Only in the top 10 (or so) we actually can see the real balance. The skill level of those players should be about equal, and there we can see the balance.
(to be continued)
japphan 1 year ago
japphan 1 year ago
I try again without showing all the statistics.
Out of the 50 spots in the 5 top 10 places of top 200, we have:
7 (14%) Zergs
24 (48%) Terran
18 (36%) Protoss
(+ 1 random player, what a hero)
Zerg had no top spot in any of the servers. This shows that Protoss is decently balanced, Terran overpowered and Zerg is underpowered. Statistics lie if you do not analyse them correctly.
japphan 1 year ago
@japphan 50% of all statistics are 100% made up
drkcyd1 1 year ago
@japphan I would analyze it for different regions as the US is known for having really bad zerg players which skews the top 200. Even so, a zerg still won the GSL against the best terrans in the world.
xanthophyll 1 year ago
@xanthophyll
i would love to see a zvz of koreans vs americans lol i bet all the americans would say zerg is op even though they are zerg
rapidspit 1 year ago
@DasMotteninsekt bronze?
benikm91 1 year ago
One thought that I personally like for reapers that I discussed way back in the days of beta is move the nitro packs to the Factory but give the Reapers the ability to use their normal weapon attack while moving, similar to a phoenix. Dual pistol - flying through the air shooting like mad. This allows Reapers to maintain usefulness against lings since they don't have to stop to shot.
BlizShouter 1 year ago
@BlizShouter That would be a great change, it would make nitro packs and reapers plausible in mid-game.
DevilsTreasure 1 year ago
@BlizShouter
nitro packs dont make sense to make at factory, there infantry hence the inf upgrade on barracks.
imnotbad9 1 year ago 2
@BlizShouter
lol, make terran even easier to micro? LOL ATK COMMAND, 2APM, woot!
oh shoot i forgot to macro, MULE MULE MULE MULE, :) there we go...
-_-'
DuelistScyne 1 year ago
Its easy to counter reapers with just queens
Ineedgames 1 year ago
GoldenZealot21 is a good example of a bronze scrub who talks sh't to pretend he's good. I mean take a look at your own comments. Aren't you even embarrassed? protos and zerg are all skilled because they play something that's not in the campaign?
/facepalm.. The numbers speak for themselves. Nobody cares about a scrub's opinion when we have facts.
m1sadria 1 year ago
i like the zerg buildings change... But the roach with more range will be sooo strong, and the reaper change will be devastating... Reapers aren't getting nerfed; they're getting removed from the game without actually being removed.
depot for rax? bull.
LashByLash69 1 year ago
i agree for the zerg upgrades, as for reapers, think they should juz increase the build time not the build order. Juz worried that terrans might have problems dealing with some early rushes, but in the end, it still depends on how a player plays.
sonic00 1 year ago
@Yyorpr2001 no they didn't suck but fruitvendor was fucking amazing that's why he won.
sksummoner 1 year ago
if protoss has higher winning rate than terran, then why focusing on nerfing terran?
people kept saying that terran is OP, then why fruitvendor won against terran easily in GSL? (4-1 against HopeToture and 3-0 against LiveForever)
Just because those two players are noobs? i do not think so
yyopr2001 1 year ago
@yyopr2001
most players new to SC overall play Terran. Why is that? Because umm... you play the whole campaign but 4 missions as Terran. I'm sure most new players skipped the last 1 or 2 Protoss missions. So they go online, and all they know is Terran, so they play Terran. These noobs are found throughout Bronze-Plat and even in Diamond. Of course they will fail against more experienced players who play Protoss and played in the beta. At the pro level and higher diamond, Terran is obviously OP.
GoldenZealot21 1 year ago
An interesting possible change for reapers could be to boost (yes, boost) their damage against buildings.
Make them more appealing as a fast-hitting raiding force aimed at the tech and production - that might give them a role even in late-game.
CircleTheSkies 1 year ago
Note the line about "adjusting for player skill". That might skew the numbers a few; not sure in what directions though.
CircleTheSkies 1 year ago
Protoss is screwed early on, especially on maps with backdoor rocks. You'll be forced to go mass stalker early on by default and then proceed to being raped with lings/mutas or just ling-infestor. This is hilarious, what is blizzard thinking? All they want is to see more people play zerg - that's not the way to ease people into the race and make it more popular.
markototev 1 year ago
one thing i like to see they nerf is marauder's dmg towards structures ... it gives me frustration whenever i see marauders walk into my expansion stim take out nexus then walk home, with or without medivacs ... 2 or 3 cannons dont stop them from coming
dns15r 1 year ago
I wasn't harassed much with reapers, but then again I don't play much.
FearedBliss 1 year ago
If they want to keep the reaper in the game at all after this patch then they need to do something like add an upgrade to boost their HP or lower their cost. I know blizzard is trying to push reapers into the mid-late game, but that just doesn't work. They're too weak and gas heavy for serious late game harass, Marauder drops are way better. Also, if they want to increase roach range that much they should cost a little more.
wamyx8Nz 1 year ago
Idra finally got his wish.
magter3001 1 year ago
They may as well have just taken the reaper out of the game with this patch, nobody uses them after the early game anyway. Blizzard needs to stop listening to bitches like idrA and look at those win stats. ZvT seems pretty balanced right now in all the leagues, if the concern is too few people playing zerg then just make them easier to macro with, maybe make larvae autospawn so you don't have to keep remembering to use the queen.
wamyx8Nz 1 year ago
wow this is just unfair....i never liked reapers anyway but this is just overkill. whos even gonna bother making reapers now. and the supply depot before rax is a bit unfair imo...especially since terran is already having lower percentage win chances...blizzard is actually doing all this just because of a bunch of whining players who lose to terran once. im so dissapointed. ive already stopped playing sc2 for a few weeks now. too disappointed
hypasheep 1 year ago
@KiriNoKitsune gosh ... wasn't it obvious that I meant that p got the advantage in pvt atm? you are so smart ...
sc2gg4ever 1 year ago
I think the early game nerf makes reapers useless, b/c it is just used in the early stages of the game.
They are not used in mid or lategame anyways, Blizzard should include some kind of mid/lategame option for reapers instead of nerfing them out of the game.
doerit 1 year ago
imo with the roach range up it became already harder to do reaper/stalker micro against roach, so that'd neutralize their base damage, that's one counter possibility, i'd left the possibility of early reaper rushes in the game (so i disagree with the supply before rax idea) but instead i'd put a research in for D-8 charges, so that reapers cannot nuke out buildings so early on, still may be able to do early economic damage, but could not take out tech/main buildings early on.
ColossusBlaise 1 year ago
I have been playing 80/20 Terran and Zerg. That will chance now. Terran will become more boring imo. Zerg are the future :)
And ppl still bitch about terran being OP.. so much for community feedback ^^
Janjacobsen89 1 year ago
i dont agree with the supply depot for bunker because as a terran i like to bunker rush with reapers, marines, etc.
halo0rap 1 year ago
I think protoss will be even more overpowered on 1v1 maps with proxying with this depo required for barracks. Actually it will be impossible.
fosian 1 year ago
They overdid the reaper, and the supply depot before barracks is just weird. But, other looks great.
striker865 1 year ago
"Protoss has 2.8% of beating Zerg" LOL GET OFF THE INTERNET
bypasslogin 1 year ago
Also great job with the commentaries Crota. I watch them every morning while I enjoy a nice cup of coffee :D
Dustsc2 1 year ago
I agree with you. I am a zerg player and I can handle reapers just fine since the last patch. This nerf is too much for terran. Reapers are the only way a terran player can game map control early on besides maybe a bunker rush which is also easier to deal with since the last patch. Reapers are only good early on. I have yet to see a pro use reapers in mid to late game. Sure you could use them later on for hit and runs on exps but marauder drops are way more effective.
Dustsc2 1 year ago
"Absolutely absolutely change the game in a significant way" is an overstatement.
It prevents the rax, raf, depot build and nothing else. The simple fact that you face a terran forces toss to go pylon gate cyber stalker, even thought you might not want to make a staker. If you don't, that's when you get a reaper killing all your probes and kiting your zealot.
It's not possible for the other races to go 1.5 as fast as terrans do with reapers. I like the change.
m4f4k3m4il 1 year ago
Here's an idea, since Reapers will no longer be able to used as a rush unit, give them more health, since they don't survive more than a couple seconds in battles. They are useless right now, and will be a unit I will never consider using now that they are further nerfed. Another idea, void rays need to be air to ground only, and give phoenix a slight damage buff. I like the Roach buff, and Zerg building buff. Hydras need a speed upgrade though....
Menhadien 1 year ago
@Menhadien
The problem with void ray being air to ground is that toss has the weakest anti-armor-air units.This means without voidrays, broodlords and BC will dominate even more. I agree with the reaper HP buff, maybe even increase the reaper's moving speed in the jet upgrade.
kleash 1 year ago
i dunno...i'm not really a huge fan of zerg because the units seem a little bit boring to me compared to other races. i miss lurkers..they were pretty badass looking.
ShadowSonic64 1 year ago
I definitely like the increase health to zerg buildings. The supply depot is pretty decent change too. It's like how protoss needs a pylon to power their first gateway first. Marines are probably the strongest early game unit since they can fight zerglings and zealots very well so it's only fair they need an extra building now. This applies to the reapers and marauders too, marauders just beat stalkers and roaches and can train them with as many required tech buildings as a zerg
Zetaman6666 1 year ago
omg STOP NERFING reapers!!! forced SD before rax means extra 30 seconds to make 1 reaper or the first marine. this makes it harder to wall off too cuz u gotta wait for the SD to finish before u can start building the rax. this makes it harder to fend off 6 pool too. building factory before getting speed upgrade? that adds an extra 60 seconds and is just complete overkill on the reaper. there will no longer be any point in having the reaper with this nerf. might as well bring back the firebat
ShadowPrinzeV 1 year ago
reapers will be fucking useless!!!!!!!!!! no out of order!!!
chrisjk123 1 year ago 9
@chrisjk123 they are already f* useless! :P
V1taLiy86 1 year ago
@V1taLiy86 no i use them a lot and i am very sucsessful !
chrisjk123 1 year ago
Also, I'd like to add that blizzard should look into increasing the cost of concussive shells and adding build time to this upgrade. The unit itself doesn't need a nerf but the concussive shells upgrade do.
humble005 1 year ago 2
I agree with most of the changes here except reaper speed upgrade. I play a lot of team games and mass reapers is actually a pretty popular build. However, needing a factory to upgrade reaper speed is a bit too much. By doing this, you're discouraging players from using reaper's and making them almost useless. A reaper/hellion combo is a possibility, which I've seen being used but again.. adding the build time to reaper speed would of been a better choice.
humble005 1 year ago
Een though I play protoss and zerg, I think that terran is getting just beaten to death. Like Crota said, Reapers already got their build time nerfed. Why beat the dead horse even more by forcing you to build a Factory to get the speed upgrade? And who in their right mind would think that forcing supply before rax was a good idea? That just takes away another option from the early game. I think that most of the patch will be fine, but the reaper nerf and forced supply bofore rax were awful ideas
RayGallade 1 year ago
i dont agree with a single one of these changes whatsoever, blizz needs to calm the fuck down and wait a few more months before dropping another balance patch
madw1lly 1 year ago
Seems like with that change, Reapers will be entirely useless. I've never seen any Terran player use Reapers other than in an opening...
sm753 1 year ago 12
@sm753
Maybe that's the problem. Blizzard wants the Reaper to be played at mid to late stages i suppose. SD before Rax seems harrsh though.
Friedrich713 1 year ago
@sm753 Maybe that's because the reaper is only a harass unit, and that's kinda retarded to make a unit only good in the early game!
ederul 1 year ago
I hope those statistics will stop people from QQing about Terran. Having said that - Terran is not my preferred race (I suck equally with them all).
sm753 1 year ago
is the marauder like a Dragoon on BW? not a chance in hell. marauders would beat goons in no time. i would remove concussive shells completely and lower their hitpoints to make it close to a BW firebat so if you want marauders in your army you would have to worry in keeping them alive
xsyntheticpunkx 1 year ago
in a more indepth unit analisis, i would talk about the marauder. i see it like a wc3tft naga sea witch with no mana requirement, with low food cost and obviously with no unit limit. how would a unit like that work in wc3? it would mess everything up.
too much hitpoints, and the only passive offensive ability in the game, good damage and Stim. its a powerhouse that costs 2 supply and almost no gas.
xsyntheticpunkx 1 year ago
to defeat gateway pushes on BW a terran had to tech to vultures, make some, lay some mines, keep the vultures alive against dragoons, then get some tanks to start slowly pushing, while whatching for dark templars, dodging storms, and always worried about a reaver drop.
in sc2 to defeat a terran if you are protoss its not on skill(micro) its on terran mistakes pretty much
xsyntheticpunkx 1 year ago
@xsyntheticpunkx
SC2 skill cap is just too limited compared to in BW. In SC2, everyone can become a pro instantly as long as you're smart enough to do the correct build order. Blizzard should make the game harder and more rewarding to those who trains a lot. Watching Idra beat boxer in sc2 makes me sad.
kleash 1 year ago
@kleash that why i didnt even bother to buy the game :P i still play BW on usEast though. i get my ass kicked sometimes, but its way better than star"forthemasses"craft 2 ".
xsyntheticpunkx 1 year ago
two things ill like to say: first those numbers could be made up. it wouldnt be the first time a company modifies their numbers to be more appealing.
secondly, terran not sure if the word is OP but they have a lot EASIER time when playing. some people have been saying that now terran is the "strong" race like protoss was in BW. But if i remember correctly, protoss didnt have such an easy time like terran have now
xsyntheticpunkx 1 year ago
teran are op they need change and suplay need for baracks nice go blizz go :D
thebole123 1 year ago
interesting win % numbers. As a protoss I usually win all my games against P and Z but am constantly getting my arse kicked by Terran. All the other people crying "Terran are OP" on here seem to have the same problem.
Oh, and 1v1 TvP reaper harass is a non issue. Don't know why they did that as I think the reaper is a really cool unit.
FiniteTurtles 1 year ago
Well with an other nerf to reapers, it will prevent the terran players to try get the advantage early on, especially in maps like Desert Oasis, imo reaper harrasment will be impossible in the start of the game as soon as this patch goes out. I do however agree that terran was and still is a powerful race (and I am also a terran player). And even I agree on certain nerfs, but keep nerfing one unit, first increased time built to a total new requirement, in addition, well I think its a bit overkill
BoboForGogo 1 year ago
Supply depo will be required to make barracks? wth
CorvetteKillingDSM 1 year ago
the depot change is STUPID. This takes away one of the advantages of Terran (being able to build anywhere anytime).
ric0h 1 year ago
@ric0h u can still build anywhere its just that u need 1 supply depot on the map in order to get a barracks, which really isnt much of a disadvantage (unless u cheese with reapers)
TheThatguyoverthere 1 year ago
@TheThatguyoverthere no, I play random (at least I try to). It's not that it "pisses me off" it's just that I dislike the fact that this sort of takes away some of the flexibility of T. Personally I don't like reapers. Without reapers we would still have medics (and I would much rather have them :) ... but alas....).
ric0h 1 year ago
@ric0h i never really played sc1 but i always found medics to be more useful then reapers (and their medivac counterparts) in the campaign :)
TheThatguyoverthere 1 year ago
hmm ... i think all the changes are ok ... just the thing with the depot is somehow stupid ... cause well ... it reduces the variety of the game ... and that's not only a terran-nerf ... IT ACTUALLY "NERFS" THE GAME
SmokyMcPot77 1 year ago
@SmokyMcPot77 well, it just limits early terran harrass by a bit. is it really a that big deal?
TheThatguyoverthere 1 year ago
@TheThatguyoverthere
it's just my opinion ... well i am a little nooby compared to professional gamers and ofc and cant predict if it will have such a big negative effect to the game ... but i guess there wont be that much proxy action by terran anymore and this definitly would be bad.
SmokyMcPot77 1 year ago
i think marauders are OP thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...i like the changes except for needing a supply depot before barracks
Robinho293 1 year ago
@KiriNoKitsune srsly you really are a little slow understanding ... in diamond it is balanced 50-50 pvt but in all other leagues protoss has a 6 to 14%!!! higher win rate than terran in pvt (look at 2:22) so before saying something stupid, think about the facts, thx
sc2gg4ever 1 year ago
At last! Grats for Blizzard for that!
UnholyOneToo 1 year ago
skill for starcraft arent cheese this will make me play the game again, im zerg rank 1 and i dont play for 2 mounths cause the game is cheese has hell, this will make the game macro more like and not a warcraft in space with 12units army only to win
69lol69 1 year ago
zerg need a buff!! im diamon rank1
69lol69 1 year ago
The problem with reapers is that they are too situational.. they basically are only used in the beginning of the game to harass, and that's it. Well, they are in the games I've seen anyway. They're glass cannons. The solution, I think, is not to make them even harder to use in the beginning, but make them a viable (and balanced) unit throughout the game.
TheLiquidPepper 1 year ago
it feels so wrong what blizzard is doing!! they nerfed the reaper, just to nerf that unit again, to nerf the whole race dramatically + to nerf all hard counters as well...some of the decision makers must hate the terran race....LOOK AT THE F%"&%?! NUMBERS INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO CRYBABIES
so blizzard...that is whats going to happen: PvZ all the time...
potze3000 1 year ago
depot before rax is fucking retarded
now terran can't even cheese for fucks sake
mireka 1 year ago
@mireka
but you can still drop and kill everything with 4 marauders. :P
zirius89 1 year ago
cool so now you will have negetive chance to see any reapers in any games now
btw it was 0% in 1.1
mireka 1 year ago
I don't really see why I should ever build a reaper now. The supply before rax is also a completely unnecessary change. Blizzard should look at the numbers instead of listening to whine choirs about terran OPness.
Zerg changes are very nice also. Keep in mind that reapers CANNOT outrange roaches anymore, so the reaper nerfs are so unnecessary...
NielsWesterneng 1 year ago
I dont like the fact that u need a supply depot before building a barrack.
No Stim on Marauders would improve the late game for zerg.
So this would be better than making it up to a building order.
I guess it will be easy for Zerg to make pressure in the early game , having a 6 Pool.
GGBlind 1 year ago
@GGBlind ??? protoss is already winning much more often then terran in pvt and you want to nerf terran even more? Why? Ohh, right because you are Protoss and want to have an even more easy time --> look at the numbers in the video
sc2gg4ever 1 year ago
they r nerfing terran too much srsly
YouSungHorang 1 year ago
that sucks... i was hopeing for no stim on maruder... i don't care about reapers... getting my cyber core asap is something i have to do anyways...
rayden0079 1 year ago
When looking at the winratio, be ware that the match making system forces the winratios to be equal! This does NOT mean, than Terran is not OP vs Zerg!!!
KDadis 1 year ago
@KDadis Then does Toss have such an advantage in certain brackets?
Deadiam 1 year ago
You fail to realise that Zerg who are in Diamond are extremely good players, where as Terran is such an easy race that they can faceroll into Diamond, but still die to good Zerg players.
ZomgZomg007 1 year ago
@ZomgZomg007 Also forgot to add. Since your Terran...you don't see Reaper Cheese. As Zerg...most games where the maps favour Reapers end up with the mass Reaper cheese, then into mass marauders.
ZomgZomg007 1 year ago
@ZomgZomg007 Protoss is the easiest race by far and has the best cheeses.
ASCII808 1 year ago
what i think of reaper that the last patch alrdy +5 secs on reaper which prevent an early rush for protoss ...but mmm build still very strong vs protoss and ht could counter it but ht ain't cheap on gas... abt zerg.. due to protoss +5 secs on zealots which may cause harder to counter the 6 pool play... except u block ur entrance or early cannon for defence .... that's what i think no offence and im toss player and i don't know how to play other ... just think im posting noob opinion
skyshen0803 1 year ago
Comment removed
skyshen0803 1 year ago
They do it for faster tech, prevent ling rush. If this passes MORE IMPORTANTLY, this would ban players from using reapers. Everybody knows how to prevent reapers rush. For P, build cybernatics, chrono boost stalkers. SO EASY. for Z, spawning pool then queen.. For T, obviously, 1 marauder. Nobody will use reapers afterwards... it will end up like wraith in SC1... a unit that is for harassing but so fragile
cafedunhill77 1 year ago
.......... factory requirement... and supply requirement heh.... wow that's gonna so mass up the tactrics used by terran players so much Especially pro gamers... That's just unthinkable since SC1. Think about it. Blizzard apparently doesn't like cheesing :( i mean so many Terran pro gamers from Korea build barracks before supply depot or at the same time.
cafedunhill77 1 year ago
I like the changes. Its too easy for marauders to snipe out Zerg buildings. Roaches need the range boost because lets face it. The Terran base unit is ranged and is good AA; and the range+micro from marauders is unstoppable. Zerg has no AA bread and butter unit in Tier 1. This means that Terrans dont even need to scout for Air Tech early on. Zerg is the only race that can be instantly GG'ed by early Air.
scaban84 1 year ago
Depot before rax is dumb. Protoss don't need anything before gates and zerg don't need anything before a pool. If you look at the lower leagues, Protoss is owning Terran. Why handicap terran more?
dcaudilla 1 year ago
@dcaudilla I dont play Toss but dont you need a pylon first to put down your gate?
scaban84 1 year ago
@dcaudilla dude.... where u gonna build gate? on geyser?
cafedunhill77 1 year ago
@dcaudilla
ya need pylon ...
skyshen0803 1 year ago
@dcaudilla
You're retarded? Do you even play SC2?
rawenkeke 1 year ago
@dcaudilla A gate needs a pylon, a spaw,ig is 200 minerals + a drone (50 minerals) --> slows the economy so the training of the first zerglings. The supply depot thing seems finally kinda ... normal? ... not sure.
VadimHor 1 year ago
@VadimHor
Ofcourse you fail to mention that both zerg and protoss supply units have powerfull properties too? Overlords are basically early map hacks, and pylons lets you magically teleport units across the map. And a terran can, well...lower their supply depot in the ground.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@Delpifo well, and what about flying buildings and the possibility to build everywhere without any constraint? Last but not least, lower a supply depot is huge, a terran can wall his base perfectly without having to actually break it afterward. Yes a pylon is great fot warpgate, but killing a pylon may unpower some buildings. Scouting overlord is great but really slow at the beginning, and a drone or two are generaly requiered anyway. Loosing an overlord is also easier...
VadimHor 1 year ago
@VadimHor
I agree, flying buildings are good, but imo, being able to warp in units anywhere on the map with pylons is still stronger because once the proxy is there, you can build whatever you want afterwards. That probes don't need to stay while buildings are being created, combined with chrono boost right out of the gate is also huge especially for early game macro. Yes terrans can call down mules, but you have to tech up to get it.
Delpifo 1 year ago
@Delpifo Finally there are specificities to each race, that's all that is. But it's getting off topic here. Terran can build a barrack faster than other races as their first building. On small maps, when I get barrack proxied, the terran player often has his first marine(s) out before my first zealot, in my base that is... If the proxy fails, he then just has to fly the barracks away. That's the game, and even if I hate terran, I don't really care, as I manage to counter it most of the times.
VadimHor 1 year ago
@Delpifo I just said, that depot before barracks may be logical.
VadimHor 1 year ago
@VadimHor
I play protoss as my 2nd race, and it's mostly a matter of choice if you want to chrono boost out workers for eco advantage early, or use the energy to get out fast zealots. So if you scout early enough, you should have time to get the zealot out in time for a proxy marine push. Ofcourse in team games this can be more tricky, but so is a double 4 gate zealot push on a terran.
Delpifo 1 year ago
TERRAN IS OP THUMBS
befek 1 year ago
So blizzard gives us some stats witch big surprize say that every race wins same percentage(in diamond)...well congrats the match making system works other than that wtf is up with those stats? maybe they should take a look at tourneys pro ones and amateur ones where 6 terans in last 8 or 4 in last 4 is common site.
monkeyZ1010 1 year ago
@monkeyZ1010 yea especially in finals for the biggest sc2 tournament in the world, where a terran player lost 4-1 v a zerg player
BoxStudioExecutive 1 year ago
too much for reapers, 1 thing may be ok but not 2!
MrDucktaper 1 year ago
@MrDucktaper I agree, Honestly I like the barracks requires supply depot, but with that reducing the build time of a reaper back to 40 would make more sense. Also, with nitro packs requiring a factory, I would be surprised to see it ever be used. Once you have a factory down, hellions are much more effective than reapers vs lings or harassing in most situations. Plus they compliment a normal army much better. Reapers are paper cannons, so if they are not micro'd in big battles they are to weak.
DevilsTreasure 1 year ago
the barracks before supply depot cheese is what took TLO out of GSL season 1. I think it's good for competition to balance the game by weeding out the cheese strategies.
Nospherith 1 year ago
Look here's the deal with the terran thing: It's not the percentage of wins, it's the viable strategies. For instance, a terran can sit in tier one-2 units (marines marauders medivacs) while the other races have to tech up and get tons of upgrades to combat it.
Snyds911 1 year ago
@Snyds911 medivac is a tier 3 unit.
ASCII808 1 year ago
I am ok with changes if reapers can attack air and 2 shot mutas
efthio 1 year ago
@efthio xD
MrDucktaper 1 year ago
The way in witch blizzard approaches things is retarded.Take the PvT mu for example,i fill this is balanced as a P in top diamond BUT! it is balanced in a really bad way.1 (little) mistake can end the game for me in one of the many early pushes teran can do a good 30% of my games just end in retarded manner (because i was macroing right when he charged the ramp for example).If the game gets in to later stages i feel P is stronger especially in mid game.Player skill is less important cause of thi
monkeyZ1010 1 year ago
I don't think that the supply depot has to stand near the barracks. i think it has just to be anywhere. And usuallay, as terran you build your supply depot on 10 anyways before barracks, so this seems not too dramatic to me.
Un4s 1 year ago
I dont think reaper chance in good, but I thuink that medivac should only
heal 1 hp per 1 energy. Then zergling could do domage to marine when healed.
nenoveir 1 year ago
@nenoveir Why the hell should a zergling, which cost 25 mineral, be able to do damage to a marine being healed by a medivac, which cost 150 mineral and 100 gas?
BoxStudioExecutive 1 year ago