...continued. Another key would have obviously been to delay any plans for the Russian campaign until the GB campaign was secure enough. The German military was exceptional... however (Thank Goodness for us all) the German leadership, especially Hitler, was highly incompetent when it came to military decisions. The fool believed in and drank his own poison which eventually doomed his military to failure and ultimately to complete defeat by the Allied Forces.
@Skubishack Well done in everything you have said.
However we still have to assume a kamikaze type of defence from the Superior British Navy+the entrenched British Army if the Germans had made any attempt to land on England.If all went well at the initial stages what would happen if the fighting dragged on?The amount of troops+ time to be spent was what Hitler would have had to calculate with risk for the invasion beforehand,considering that Stalin was building up his forces at the time
...continued. Had the German invasion been successful, the next step should have been to maintain an airbase on GB soil as a point of start for the rest of their GB campaign. They would have needed to slowly make ground gains including key ports and landing feilds for resupply and reenforcements. They needed to make ports in GB unable to use for GB Naval power in other area while holding a few for their own needs. U-boats would have been crutial since the German surface fleet was inadequate.
So many opinions here. Truth is GB won with superior intel and luck. As for Germany, they should have concentrated there forces for an invasion since they decided to attack GB directly. Had they landed a small beachhead and maintained air advantage over a supply route ONLY they could have kept the GB Naval and Air forces at bay in that supply route area. They could have also used their U-boats to keep that route open. A massive airborne drop would have been needed in the initial phase also.
the speculation is that the germans wouldnt have had the equipment and boats to carry out an amphibious landing.look at how much material was involved in D-Day. The Royal Navy was very powerful too.
@SaintMeran Germany was a land power, Britain was a naval power,and thats where the balance hung.You would have been looking at a stalemate in that respect.The involvement of the USSR and USA inevitably tipped the balance. The interesting thing for me would be,in the event of no Pearl Harbor and no USA involvement in ww2,could the USSR have beaten nazi germany?
@farookbulsasra i have to tell you my opinion: USA would enter the war, no matter what, they would have find a reason and enter the battle, otherwise i think germany would have taken USSR for sure (remember the commonwealth). The soviets would have been out because of germany on one side and japan on the other (if USA would have been out, the japanese would have easily conquer Pacific and then of course they would drag their attention to China and USSR).
No chance! Successful invasion requires that you possess air supremacy. Germany never defeated the RAF or her allies hence the invading forces would have been defeated from the air leaving perhaps a small number of survivors to be eaten up upon entry into the countryside.
Sealion was at best a half-hearted planning exercise against a nation Hitler had never wanted a war with. A more dangerous course of action would have been the massive reinforcement of the Afrika Korps in late 1941. The capture of Cairo, Alexandria and, crucially, the closing of the Suez canal would have been a critical momemt for the UK
However Britain and its Empire was something Hitler did not willfully touch but was only forced to do it to help Italy and to stop Britain from attacking Hitlers Europe from the south.
The invasion would have been unlikely because many boats used for carrying troops , tanks and supply would have been too slow unlike the Allied D-Day invasion forces.
The Royal Navy would have going down from Orkney Islands and sank as many boats as they can. Even if invasion was successful, the German armed forces on land could have faced supply problems - both RAF and Royal Navy would have to block the supply routes.
@DavBlc7 Well, in order for the operation to be launched in the first place the Germans would have established air superiority, so the RAF would not be an issue. It is questionable though if the Luftwaffe would have been able to neutralise the Royal Navy. As far as ground forces are concerned, the Germans would have been superior if they could get their tanks and artillery/heavy guns ashore in suffient numbers with proper fuel. But then again the question of their supply lines being harrased
My goodness American's really do talk out of their bottoms.
FACT - We won the Battle of Britian, we had a air force, we still had a much larger navy then a Nazi Germany that heavily depended on a U-Boat service. They had 0 aircraft carriers, the vast majority of their destroyers had been sunk in Norway by us and the Battleships they had were bottled up bar a couple which we sunk in the first 12 months of the war.
Even if we had lost the vast majority of our army at Dunkirk. We'd have managed!
but even if sealion fails the kriegsmarine would have kicked the ass of the royal navy but the royal navy outnumbered the prinz eugen and the bismark whit those two battle ships the british would have surrender
Yes the Germans could have won, it's amazing they did not actually.
Thank God these lunatics like HItler and Jeff Davis believe their own bullshit after a while and attack the wrong person. Hitler attacked Stalin, and Davis attacked Lincon
Your missing my points. IF, IF Germany would have destroyed the Brits at Dunkirk, there would have been no trained forces to resist an invasion. And if they would have continued focusing on British planes instead of cities, there was a point during the Battle of Brit where they were just about destroyed, then luckily they switched to cities. I think German U Boats & planes could have held the navy off long enough to land a few divisions on an unprotected England, with devastating results.
i agree it was a close run thing though it was because the RAF bombed Berlin that hitler threw a hissy fit and switched all his bombers onto Britians cities
If talking about this time line, the feasibility of doing a invasion would possible if the other Axis powers were able to provide technical assistance to teach the Germans to plan and equip their military to prepare for a seaborne landing. Plus the Kreigsmarine had access to the French Navy and the Italian Navy to provide sea cover and the Luftwaffe improve their long range durability of their aircraft and get a decent 4-engined heavy bomber ready.
It has been debated many times that a german invasion would have been very unlikley to succeed. In your post you refer to training etc - from who? Also the french navy was not in german hands ever and was scuttled by the Vichy french anyway when the allies approached.
@Mythteller Hi,the Axis Powers and their satellite powers were very poor at co ordinating plans together compared to the Allies whom spoke the same language.
Britain and America were always commuincating and planning battles together where Italy+ Germany were apart....Japan did its own thing.
@Mythteller Hi,the British navy would have destroyed the Italian Navy at Gibraltar and elsewere.The Italians were only interested in S.E. Europe and Africa.There was no effective military joint up thinking between the Axis powers which is the main reason why they lost in the long run.
the only likely way germany might have beaten britain is if they had competent leadership in the battle of britain. A landing force too early on probably would have been wiped out by the Royal Navy cutting its supplies. Any plan to invade britain bigtime was ludicrous after hitler declared war on the soviets.
@Joker3797 Too true - the US never officially entered the war until Hitler himself declared war four days after Pearl Harbour which was 11th December but I think Hitler may have made a bigger error in declaring war on the US. believing that both German and Japan can defeat the Yanks.
That operation was cancelled in October so to save as much of his planes as he can in readiness for the invasion of the Soviet Union. The plan was not dead until shortly after the Allies landed on D-Day.
A very clichéd and very improbable AH scenario. Period. Only AH n00bs think it would be feasible. With all due respect, Germany simply wasn't ready to launch such a massive and ambitious invasion...
nagleou, German loss of planes vs British was too great, combined with a strong RN and Hitlers plan to crack British morale, which failed, were the root of the problem. Combined with no purpose built landing craft and weather (observe D Day's problems) and u will see why u are wrong.
I am sure u can explain away the Spanish armada as US intervention. And would no doubt deny that the US revolution was a forgone victory blah blah
My Grandad had a mate with a shotgun a Jack Russel with a nasty bite.That would have given the square headed sausage suckers something to think about!Any how if the jerries were so good and us Brits are so shit,what stoped the Germans from invading shitty old England?
uh what about the u-boats do you think they were gonna sit back and allow english capital ships to sail by doubtful defense agains them in 1940 was non-exsistent does scapa flow ring a bell
During the Battle of Britain, Germany's biggest mistake was switching to attacking British cities. If they would have kept after the airfields/RAF they may have won. Also, if Hitler would have let his generals have their way at Dunkirk, and destroyed the British army there, Operation Sealion or any similar amphibious attack would have been greeted with little armed resistance. Then even a few panzer divisions could have caused havoc on an unprotected England and their severely weakened RAF.
Lots of if's - If the UK did not have radar. If the UK had not been able to intercept every german plane upon take off by its radio message to control tower. If the many landing strips in Kent had not been made availble to substitue out of action airfileds. If UK aircarft production had not moved to small facilites and away from factory clusters etc etc....
@gjc82071 Hi,if the British E army had been destroyed or taken prisoner in Dunkirk it would have forced Churchill to sue for peace to bring them back.England by itself would always be a stumbling block for an invasion given the German naval logistics and with the Brits fighting valiantly for their defense.Britain may have just the adequate manpower to defend itself with its fortifications.
The Kriegsmarines did not have the assets to land enough German troops, supply them and land any more waves. Any troops landed could easily be dealt with by the British forces available at the time.
Look at DDay all the Air Sea land assets needed to mount a succesful invasion.
Plus that the Kriegsmarine was still recovering from the Norwegian campaign and their paratroopers had suffered heavy losses in Holland and they too where understrengh.
The Luftwaffe could never of defeated the RAF if fighter command fell below a certain number Air marshal would pull the sqadrons out of the German fighter range which was very limited.
If they attempted the invasion the Luftwaffe had more tasks than assets. Taking on the RAF, shore bombardment, protecting the embarkation ports. Protecting the beach heads supporting parashute and glider landings.
the real reason england wasnt invaded was becasue hitler got stupid and started bombing cities instead of the airfields, if he had of hkept bombing teh airfields for another 20 days or month or something england wouldnt have had an airforce to stop an invasion, simple 4th year history i learnded here, and still remmeber it 10 years later. but if you want good proof of this check out the battle of britain doc and vids on youtube here
prob not.... hitler would haave shot me lol... but theres some good interviews (they were done in the 70s/80's) of english airmen.... im going onto a cousre after uni in military history but if hitler had kept his cool and desroyed airfield first then he wouldnt have lost so many bomber bombing the cities.... i just think it would have been common sense, but hitler wanst common and he only listened to generals who were yes men..
What you dont realise is the germans wouldnt have made it within 15 miles before the royal navy arrived (the largest navy at the time) and obliterated the defences while the entire britsh army pushed them back into the sea they would have been cut off and lost an entire army in the process. We took back africa and pushed hitler back into europe before you decided to "save the day" if you lot were isolationists now maybe the whole world wouldnt hate america
you either slept thru history class or your just plain retared uk declares war in 39 looses any offense it trys to mount in france,norway,greece,crete,dieppe,from sept 39 til dec 41 2 years 3 mos before us enters war england did nothing but retreat not until operation torch in north africa when the us got involved did things start to change then sicly,italy,france and germany your just envious of the us and our might get a library card and read before you post you sound foolish
@nagleou812 Hi, agree with everything you say.Britain could only fight a checking/retreating war against Germany up to El Alimean in 1942.They won that only battle before the US arrived.Russia was taking up 75% of the German army time which was a let off for Britain.
Britain contributed 25% to the war effort overall which was crutial but the Brits go on as if the beat Hitler single handed!
@nagleou812 your a dumnass im a pround american yes but the british played a biger part in the war than we did and russia had more of a part than both of us so how about you go read a book
And the USA gave pilots? Most pilots were from Europa mate. Think again. Planes? The Spitfires were through and through English.
I really ahd it with types like you who keep saying the USA did everything, they helped and did alot but guess what? So did every bloody country in Europe. Read further then the books you get in school.
Yes that would surely have worked, lets attack the RAF bases. Think, if it's not to hard, they saw them coming from miles away, if the Luftwaffe would get near a base they would face a whole line of spitfires up in the sky. And oh yes it is also so easy to find a military base. I mean the English even gave out booklets with the adresses on it, in case Hitler wanted to send a postcard to wish them merry Christmas....Please man, reconsider your comment.
Of course we British are thankful for the assistance the US provided during WWII, however Operation Sealion was prevented by our victory in the Battle of Britain which was mainly due to our radar network, excellent fighter aircraft and brave fighter pilots, it was overwhelmingly a British victory in which the US played little part.
Plus jimmyn89s comment regarding the Royal Navy vs. Kriegsmarine is spot on.
@Ru2S7 we provided supplies and some planes but yes it was a truly british victory, they showed their endurance and determination in the battle of britain and beat Germany back to "stay in the game".
@Ru2S7 Hi,it was really the English Channel that saved Britain.If It was joined to France along its southern front then German Victory would have been assured.
The channel was the biggest obsticle with the high cliffs of Dover and the bigger Gulf further on.Hitler was in fact not too pushed about defeating Britain and was more interested in tackling Russia.
@Corsaircid Citing the Channel as the 'real' reason Britain was saved is too simplistic, i agree we would have suffered a similar fate to western Europe had we shared a land border but the point is we didn't and our strength lay in air and sea power as a result. Yes Hitler was more concerned with Lebensraum but the committal and subsequent loss of thousands of Luftwaffe aircraft and experienced crew would suggest he made more than a just cursory effort. Thanks.
@Ru2S7 Hitler only made a bigger effort to save face when the RAF bombed Berlin in retaliation for an accidental bombing of London during a previous night raid.When the German Generals had reached Dunkirk & Paris he appeared to have little interest in an invasion as he admired the British Empire so much.It was his constant dilly-dallying that delayed any meaningful determined invasion of Britain which gave the time and breathing space needed to defend itself.
@Ru2S7 Loosing Air superiorty to Hitler would have strengthend his hand.He was keen to make peace terms with you as his fellow Anglo-Saxons.
This being the case,if Churchill had accepted,war may have ended in the west.
Hitlers idealogies was benifitial to Britain from July-Sept 1940 as the factories stepped up production of tanks+Planes lost at Dunkirk.The 2 words "If Necessary" were used quite a lot in Hitlers sentinces of a considered invasion.
@Corsaircid Whether you believe invasion would have followed a loss of air superiority or not, im sure you would agree that gaining it would be fundamental to any planned operation. Fortunately they did not gain it because 'we' won the Battle of Britain as per my original point, and therefore they couldn't have invaded even if they had wanted to. Thanks.
You assume that Hitler wanted to invade Britain,Air superiority or not.Air superiorty would have forced Churchill to make peace as the Luftwaffe could then attack British shipping/armament factories at will, virtually unopposed.Hitler wanted peace quickly as possible.The difficult Channel defended by the brave British troops would cost high German Casualities even with Air cover.A risk Hitler would not be keen to take.
@Corsaircid When did i assume Hitler wanted to invade Britain, air superiority or not? Can you please tell me?
My only assumption was that air superiority was/is a prerequisite to an amphibious invasion...would you argue otherwise?
Are you also seriously suggesting that Churchill would have made peace with Hitler just because the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority, that he would have given up the fight without a single German foot being set upon British soil?...ha!
@Ru2S7 It was when you asked me the question "Are you saying If we lost air superiority an invasion would not have followed?"
The Battle of Britain/Operation Sealion will always be a subject of discussion particularily of what was going on in Hitlers mind.
Finally we can only speculate if Hitler got Air control+what Churchill would have done under that situation as his only means of effective counter attacking would be gone.Anyway it never happened so we both be glad and free!
Part 2. When the Americans had Air superiority over Japan in 1945 did an invasion follow?An attack from the sea is difficult in those days and costly as you put men on the beaches more so than tanks.They used "the Bomb" instead.
Hitler was pinned for time as he knew that a delay in attacking Russia would be fatal because of the weather.
@Corsaircid Come on, you can't compare the potential invasions of Britain 1940 and Japan 1945!...simply because of the strategic effect of 'the Bomb' itself.
@Corsaircid Anyway despite our disagreements im glad our exchange has remained amicable and not descended into a slanging match as is so often the case on here. It's been both interesting and worthwhile if not now somewhat tiresome for us both.
In summary i agree that Hitler was never fully committed to Operation Sealion, however i still believe he'd have failed even if he had been because air superiority must be obtained and it wasn't because 'we' won the Battle of Britain. Tally-ho chaps! :)
@Ru2S7 attacking Moscow was a political goal,Hitlers generals,suprisingly,were in favour of capturing Moscow thereby assuming the collapse of the soviet union.Hitler wanted the oilfields of the caucasus,hence the change of objective in 1942.It seems Hitler couldnt make up his mind;take the oilfields,now destroy Stalingrad as it bore Stalins name and pandered to idealogy.Interestingly, the USSR had a manpower reservoir of 17million men of military eligibility
@Corsaircid it was mussolini's fault, the delay on attacking Russia. Had he not cocked up his Balkans invasion,Hitler would not have delayed his USSR invasion to help Mussolini.That cost 2 vital months
@farookbulsasra Hi,your correct that Mussolini delayed the invasion of Russia.
Hitler wanted peace terms with Britain, that was a constant thorn on his side.
We seem to assume that the fall of Moscow would be the fall of Russia but the Russians would have retreated to the Urals to fight on as Britain would still be fighting a second front.
@Corsaircid that is correct farookbulsasra, The Soviets would never have surrendered if Moscow falls - You may remember the French did capture Moscow but the Russians did not gave up so they simply let their capital city in flames in order to get the French out with the help of very cold weather!
Stalin would have learned of this and might have ordered the Soviets to burn Moscow down when the Germans were very close but they did not get close when Soviets counter attacked thus saved Moscow.
@DavBlc7 Hi there,I think you meant to be in agreement with me, not farookbulsasra.You put the comma in the wrong place!HA HA!
Your are correct too.The Soviets had built industries in the Urals to mass produce tanks and equipment.A German General once said "we pushed forward away from our supply base as we pushed the Soviets near to theirs".
If the war dragged on after Moscow the US would have no choice but to get involved as Japan would invade USSR from the East. We could go on,
@Ru2S7 It is true Britain could rely on its radar stations, but still the British victory was only a close one. In the beginning of september 1940, the RAF was actually defeated, but the Germans didn't realize it. There was even an Invasion Alert declared in Britain, because the RAF was too incompetent at that moment to hold off an invasion force. But hen Göring changed tactics and bombed London instead of airfields and radar stations, the RAF could recover and won the battle of Britain.
@Ru2S7 "it was overwhelmingly a British victory in which the US played little part." there were actually American pilots in England even before Pearl harbour but they were volunteers - One RAF group with American pilots were known as "Eagle Group" with US eagle log on top of their RAF sleeves.
The other American help was that they gave old warships, ammo tanks, etc to Britain - it was known as the Lend- lease agreement. That agreement also extended to USSR when Nazi invaded Russia.
He could have tried, but it most likely would have failed anyway.
To invade Germany needed landing crafts and a strong surface fleet to protect them.
Germany had no specialized landing crafts, they were planning on using Rhine river barges.
And the other problem is the fact that the British Royal Navy(worlds largest at the time) was far superior to the Kriegsmarine, which would have made it very difficult to protect the invasion fleet.
the royal navy wasnt the largest aat the time... due to the depression etc the navy scrapped most of the plans for new ships and reinforced older ships... also because of the washington and london navy treaties the royal fleet in 1939 was already well surpassed by the american and japaneese navies.... research mate...
Yes, you might be right, however, the poor mother, who lost any of her children and husband du to the war would proabaly not try to go against them if the germans won, its most about fear, not honor. Need is always over honor, you might have not fallen to them, you might just have died, the people who care about their blood would fall. That's survival instinct.
Fortunately a Nazi-invasion in the UK never took place!!!
demystifyer 2 months ago
...continued. Another key would have obviously been to delay any plans for the Russian campaign until the GB campaign was secure enough. The German military was exceptional... however (Thank Goodness for us all) the German leadership, especially Hitler, was highly incompetent when it came to military decisions. The fool believed in and drank his own poison which eventually doomed his military to failure and ultimately to complete defeat by the Allied Forces.
Skubishack 1 year ago
@Skubishack Well done in everything you have said.
However we still have to assume a kamikaze type of defence from the Superior British Navy+the entrenched British Army if the Germans had made any attempt to land on England.If all went well at the initial stages what would happen if the fighting dragged on?The amount of troops+ time to be spent was what Hitler would have had to calculate with risk for the invasion beforehand,considering that Stalin was building up his forces at the time
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
...continued. Had the German invasion been successful, the next step should have been to maintain an airbase on GB soil as a point of start for the rest of their GB campaign. They would have needed to slowly make ground gains including key ports and landing feilds for resupply and reenforcements. They needed to make ports in GB unable to use for GB Naval power in other area while holding a few for their own needs. U-boats would have been crutial since the German surface fleet was inadequate.
Skubishack 1 year ago
So many opinions here. Truth is GB won with superior intel and luck. As for Germany, they should have concentrated there forces for an invasion since they decided to attack GB directly. Had they landed a small beachhead and maintained air advantage over a supply route ONLY they could have kept the GB Naval and Air forces at bay in that supply route area. They could have also used their U-boats to keep that route open. A massive airborne drop would have been needed in the initial phase also.
Skubishack 1 year ago
the speculation is that the germans wouldnt have had the equipment and boats to carry out an amphibious landing.look at how much material was involved in D-Day. The Royal Navy was very powerful too.
farookbulsasra 1 year ago
@farookbulsasra that is very true! one of the reasons!
SaintMeran 1 year ago
@SaintMeran Germany was a land power, Britain was a naval power,and thats where the balance hung.You would have been looking at a stalemate in that respect.The involvement of the USSR and USA inevitably tipped the balance. The interesting thing for me would be,in the event of no Pearl Harbor and no USA involvement in ww2,could the USSR have beaten nazi germany?
farookbulsasra 1 year ago
@farookbulsasra i have to tell you my opinion: USA would enter the war, no matter what, they would have find a reason and enter the battle, otherwise i think germany would have taken USSR for sure (remember the commonwealth). The soviets would have been out because of germany on one side and japan on the other (if USA would have been out, the japanese would have easily conquer Pacific and then of course they would drag their attention to China and USSR).
SaintMeran 1 year ago
No chance! Successful invasion requires that you possess air supremacy. Germany never defeated the RAF or her allies hence the invading forces would have been defeated from the air leaving perhaps a small number of survivors to be eaten up upon entry into the countryside.
qlaw04 1 year ago
Sealion was at best a half-hearted planning exercise against a nation Hitler had never wanted a war with. A more dangerous course of action would have been the massive reinforcement of the Afrika Korps in late 1941. The capture of Cairo, Alexandria and, crucially, the closing of the Suez canal would have been a critical momemt for the UK
smthssarmour 1 year ago
@smthssarmour Hi totally agree with you.
However Britain and its Empire was something Hitler did not willfully touch but was only forced to do it to help Italy and to stop Britain from attacking Hitlers Europe from the south.
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
The invasion would have been unlikely because many boats used for carrying troops , tanks and supply would have been too slow unlike the Allied D-Day invasion forces.
The Royal Navy would have going down from Orkney Islands and sank as many boats as they can. Even if invasion was successful, the German armed forces on land could have faced supply problems - both RAF and Royal Navy would have to block the supply routes.
DavBlc7 1 year ago
@DavBlc7 Well, in order for the operation to be launched in the first place the Germans would have established air superiority, so the RAF would not be an issue. It is questionable though if the Luftwaffe would have been able to neutralise the Royal Navy. As far as ground forces are concerned, the Germans would have been superior if they could get their tanks and artillery/heavy guns ashore in suffient numbers with proper fuel. But then again the question of their supply lines being harrased
Joker3797 1 year ago
@Joker3797 comes up, because without proper supplies, even with air superiority, the operation would fail.
Joker3797 1 year ago
My goodness American's really do talk out of their bottoms.
FACT - We won the Battle of Britian, we had a air force, we still had a much larger navy then a Nazi Germany that heavily depended on a U-Boat service. They had 0 aircraft carriers, the vast majority of their destroyers had been sunk in Norway by us and the Battleships they had were bottled up bar a couple which we sunk in the first 12 months of the war.
Even if we had lost the vast majority of our army at Dunkirk. We'd have managed!
tombo1984 1 year ago
but even if sealion fails the kriegsmarine would have kicked the ass of the royal navy but the royal navy outnumbered the prinz eugen and the bismark whit those two battle ships the british would have surrender
firestorm1174 1 year ago
Captain Mannering would have made mincemeat out of the nazi swine.
cupotea609 1 year ago
Yes the Germans could have won, it's amazing they did not actually.
Thank God these lunatics like HItler and Jeff Davis believe their own bullshit after a while and attack the wrong person. Hitler attacked Stalin, and Davis attacked Lincon
Big mistakes.
12FlyMe 2 years ago
Your missing my points. IF, IF Germany would have destroyed the Brits at Dunkirk, there would have been no trained forces to resist an invasion. And if they would have continued focusing on British planes instead of cities, there was a point during the Battle of Brit where they were just about destroyed, then luckily they switched to cities. I think German U Boats & planes could have held the navy off long enough to land a few divisions on an unprotected England, with devastating results.
gjc82071 2 years ago 3
i agree it was a close run thing though it was because the RAF bombed Berlin that hitler threw a hissy fit and switched all his bombers onto Britians cities
eggplantoverlord 2 years ago
If talking about this time line, the feasibility of doing a invasion would possible if the other Axis powers were able to provide technical assistance to teach the Germans to plan and equip their military to prepare for a seaborne landing. Plus the Kreigsmarine had access to the French Navy and the Italian Navy to provide sea cover and the Luftwaffe improve their long range durability of their aircraft and get a decent 4-engined heavy bomber ready.
Mythteller 2 years ago
It has been debated many times that a german invasion would have been very unlikley to succeed. In your post you refer to training etc - from who? Also the french navy was not in german hands ever and was scuttled by the Vichy french anyway when the allies approached.
coolygirlconnie 2 years ago
@Mythteller Hi,the Axis Powers and their satellite powers were very poor at co ordinating plans together compared to the Allies whom spoke the same language.
Britain and America were always commuincating and planning battles together where Italy+ Germany were apart....Japan did its own thing.
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Mythteller Hi,the British navy would have destroyed the Italian Navy at Gibraltar and elsewere.The Italians were only interested in S.E. Europe and Africa.There was no effective military joint up thinking between the Axis powers which is the main reason why they lost in the long run.
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
the only likely way germany might have beaten britain is if they had competent leadership in the battle of britain. A landing force too early on probably would have been wiped out by the Royal Navy cutting its supplies. Any plan to invade britain bigtime was ludicrous after hitler declared war on the soviets.
cluemonday88 2 years ago
Hitler only declared war on the Soviets during the summer of 1941 and would of postponed if the invasion of Britain was still ongoiing
topgear421 2 years ago
@topgear421 nooo... The US was the only country Hitler ever offically declared war on. He simply attacked the others.
Joker3797 1 year ago
@Joker3797 Too true - the US never officially entered the war until Hitler himself declared war four days after Pearl Harbour which was 11th December but I think Hitler may have made a bigger error in declaring war on the US. believing that both German and Japan can defeat the Yanks.
That operation was cancelled in October so to save as much of his planes as he can in readiness for the invasion of the Soviet Union. The plan was not dead until shortly after the Allies landed on D-Day.
DavBlc7 1 year ago
@DavBlc7 i thought it was September 17th, when it was posponed indefinitely, oh well, you are correct on all that you said.
Joker3797 1 year ago
A very clichéd and very improbable AH scenario. Period. Only AH n00bs think it would be feasible. With all due respect, Germany simply wasn't ready to launch such a massive and ambitious invasion...
ZemplinTemplar 2 years ago 2
Da hat wohl einer zu viel Blitzkrieg gezockt XD
Batner112 2 years ago
nagleou, German loss of planes vs British was too great, combined with a strong RN and Hitlers plan to crack British morale, which failed, were the root of the problem. Combined with no purpose built landing craft and weather (observe D Day's problems) and u will see why u are wrong.
I am sure u can explain away the Spanish armada as US intervention. And would no doubt deny that the US revolution was a forgone victory blah blah
coolygirlconnie 2 years ago
before the Luftwaffe switched to bombing cities the RAF runways were getting pounded and struggling to cope.
topgear421 2 years ago
My Grandad had a mate with a shotgun a Jack Russel with a nasty bite.That would have given the square headed sausage suckers something to think about!Any how if the jerries were so good and us Brits are so shit,what stoped the Germans from invading shitty old England?
cupotea609 2 years ago
uh what about the u-boats do you think they were gonna sit back and allow english capital ships to sail by doubtful defense agains them in 1940 was non-exsistent does scapa flow ring a bell
nagleou812 2 years ago
During the Battle of Britain, Germany's biggest mistake was switching to attacking British cities. If they would have kept after the airfields/RAF they may have won. Also, if Hitler would have let his generals have their way at Dunkirk, and destroyed the British army there, Operation Sealion or any similar amphibious attack would have been greeted with little armed resistance. Then even a few panzer divisions could have caused havoc on an unprotected England and their severely weakened RAF.
gjc82071 2 years ago
Lots of if's - If the UK did not have radar. If the UK had not been able to intercept every german plane upon take off by its radio message to control tower. If the many landing strips in Kent had not been made availble to substitue out of action airfileds. If UK aircarft production had not moved to small facilites and away from factory clusters etc etc....
coolygirlconnie 2 years ago
@gjc82071 Hi,if the British E army had been destroyed or taken prisoner in Dunkirk it would have forced Churchill to sue for peace to bring them back.England by itself would always be a stumbling block for an invasion given the German naval logistics and with the Brits fighting valiantly for their defense.Britain may have just the adequate manpower to defend itself with its fortifications.
Air surpremecy was the factor.
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
The Kriegsmarines did not have the assets to land enough German troops, supply them and land any more waves. Any troops landed could easily be dealt with by the British forces available at the time.
Look at DDay all the Air Sea land assets needed to mount a succesful invasion.
tonycavanagh1929 2 years ago
Fully agreed.
Plus that the Kriegsmarine was still recovering from the Norwegian campaign and their paratroopers had suffered heavy losses in Holland and they too where understrengh.
ghostdivision7 2 years ago
The Luftwaffe could never of defeated the RAF if fighter command fell below a certain number Air marshal would pull the sqadrons out of the German fighter range which was very limited.
If they attempted the invasion the Luftwaffe had more tasks than assets. Taking on the RAF, shore bombardment, protecting the embarkation ports. Protecting the beach heads supporting parashute and glider landings.
Taking on the Royal Navy. The
tonycavanagh1929 2 years ago
the real reason england wasnt invaded was becasue hitler got stupid and started bombing cities instead of the airfields, if he had of hkept bombing teh airfields for another 20 days or month or something england wouldnt have had an airforce to stop an invasion, simple 4th year history i learnded here, and still remmeber it 10 years later. but if you want good proof of this check out the battle of britain doc and vids on youtube here
Goose4god 2 years ago
fascinating references (you tube ?). So if you had been part of the German high Command you would have changed the course of history ?
Cytologix 2 years ago
prob not.... hitler would haave shot me lol... but theres some good interviews (they were done in the 70s/80's) of english airmen.... im going onto a cousre after uni in military history but if hitler had kept his cool and desroyed airfield first then he wouldnt have lost so many bomber bombing the cities.... i just think it would have been common sense, but hitler wanst common and he only listened to generals who were yes men..
Goose4god 2 years ago
What you dont realise is the germans wouldnt have made it within 15 miles before the royal navy arrived (the largest navy at the time) and obliterated the defences while the entire britsh army pushed them back into the sea they would have been cut off and lost an entire army in the process. We took back africa and pushed hitler back into europe before you decided to "save the day" if you lot were isolationists now maybe the whole world wouldnt hate america
darthmidius 3 years ago
you either slept thru history class or your just plain retared uk declares war in 39 looses any offense it trys to mount in france,norway,greece,crete,dieppe,from sept 39 til dec 41 2 years 3 mos before us enters war england did nothing but retreat not until operation torch in north africa when the us got involved did things start to change then sicly,italy,france and germany your just envious of the us and our might get a library card and read before you post you sound foolish
nagleou812 2 years ago
nagleou812
Here we go again! yet another arrogant American Numpty spouting twaddle.
LordGodofMercy 2 years ago 8
England won El Alamein, they were pushing the Germans and Italians back into Libya. The British were doing something you more on.
Ultima770 2 years ago
@nagleou812 Hi, agree with everything you say.Britain could only fight a checking/retreating war against Germany up to El Alimean in 1942.They won that only battle before the US arrived.Russia was taking up 75% of the German army time which was a let off for Britain.
Britain contributed 25% to the war effort overall which was crutial but the Brits go on as if the beat Hitler single handed!
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@nagleou812 your a dumnass im a pround american yes but the british played a biger part in the war than we did and russia had more of a part than both of us so how about you go read a book
godzillafights 7 months ago
operation sea lion was prevented because no one in germany could agree on a plan before it was to late.
isaacblue72 3 years ago
And the USA gave pilots? Most pilots were from Europa mate. Think again. Planes? The Spitfires were through and through English.
I really ahd it with types like you who keep saying the USA did everything, they helped and did alot but guess what? So did every bloody country in Europe. Read further then the books you get in school.
darkjester53 3 years ago 2
Yes that would surely have worked, lets attack the RAF bases. Think, if it's not to hard, they saw them coming from miles away, if the Luftwaffe would get near a base they would face a whole line of spitfires up in the sky. And oh yes it is also so easy to find a military base. I mean the English even gave out booklets with the adresses on it, in case Hitler wanted to send a postcard to wish them merry Christmas....Please man, reconsider your comment.
darkjester53 3 years ago
The Gerries would'nt have got very far.Our pil box up the road would have given the Panzer Divisions a head ache.And we moved some road signs around.
cupotea609 3 years ago
Of course we British are thankful for the assistance the US provided during WWII, however Operation Sealion was prevented by our victory in the Battle of Britain which was mainly due to our radar network, excellent fighter aircraft and brave fighter pilots, it was overwhelmingly a British victory in which the US played little part.
Plus jimmyn89s comment regarding the Royal Navy vs. Kriegsmarine is spot on.
Ru2S7 3 years ago 11
@Ru2S7 we provided supplies and some planes but yes it was a truly british victory, they showed their endurance and determination in the battle of britain and beat Germany back to "stay in the game".
Joker3797 1 year ago
@Ru2S7
Learn your history. You should know Ben Affleck saved Britan in the Blitz. lol
107Ryebread 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 Hi,it was really the English Channel that saved Britain.If It was joined to France along its southern front then German Victory would have been assured.
The channel was the biggest obsticle with the high cliffs of Dover and the bigger Gulf further on.Hitler was in fact not too pushed about defeating Britain and was more interested in tackling Russia.
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Corsaircid Citing the Channel as the 'real' reason Britain was saved is too simplistic, i agree we would have suffered a similar fate to western Europe had we shared a land border but the point is we didn't and our strength lay in air and sea power as a result. Yes Hitler was more concerned with Lebensraum but the committal and subsequent loss of thousands of Luftwaffe aircraft and experienced crew would suggest he made more than a just cursory effort. Thanks.
Ru2S7 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 Hitler only made a bigger effort to save face when the RAF bombed Berlin in retaliation for an accidental bombing of London during a previous night raid.When the German Generals had reached Dunkirk & Paris he appeared to have little interest in an invasion as he admired the British Empire so much.It was his constant dilly-dallying that delayed any meaningful determined invasion of Britain which gave the time and breathing space needed to defend itself.
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Corsaircid Are you suggesting that if 'we' had lost air superiority, invasion would not have followed?
Ru2S7 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 Loosing Air superiorty to Hitler would have strengthend his hand.He was keen to make peace terms with you as his fellow Anglo-Saxons.
This being the case,if Churchill had accepted,war may have ended in the west.
Hitlers idealogies was benifitial to Britain from July-Sept 1940 as the factories stepped up production of tanks+Planes lost at Dunkirk.The 2 words "If Necessary" were used quite a lot in Hitlers sentinces of a considered invasion.
Chastisment was his foremost Policy.
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Corsaircid Whether you believe invasion would have followed a loss of air superiority or not, im sure you would agree that gaining it would be fundamental to any planned operation. Fortunately they did not gain it because 'we' won the Battle of Britain as per my original point, and therefore they couldn't have invaded even if they had wanted to. Thanks.
Ru2S7 1 year ago
@Ru2S7
Part 1
You assume that Hitler wanted to invade Britain,Air superiority or not.Air superiorty would have forced Churchill to make peace as the Luftwaffe could then attack British shipping/armament factories at will, virtually unopposed.Hitler wanted peace quickly as possible.The difficult Channel defended by the brave British troops would cost high German Casualities even with Air cover.A risk Hitler would not be keen to take.
Hence:THE ENGLISH CHANNEL.
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Corsaircid When did i assume Hitler wanted to invade Britain, air superiority or not? Can you please tell me?
My only assumption was that air superiority was/is a prerequisite to an amphibious invasion...would you argue otherwise?
Are you also seriously suggesting that Churchill would have made peace with Hitler just because the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority, that he would have given up the fight without a single German foot being set upon British soil?...ha!
Ru2S7 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 It was when you asked me the question "Are you saying If we lost air superiority an invasion would not have followed?"
The Battle of Britain/Operation Sealion will always be a subject of discussion particularily of what was going on in Hitlers mind.
Finally we can only speculate if Hitler got Air control+what Churchill would have done under that situation as his only means of effective counter attacking would be gone.Anyway it never happened so we both be glad and free!
Over and Out!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Ru2S7
Part 2. When the Americans had Air superiority over Japan in 1945 did an invasion follow?An attack from the sea is difficult in those days and costly as you put men on the beaches more so than tanks.They used "the Bomb" instead.
Hitler was pinned for time as he knew that a delay in attacking Russia would be fatal because of the weather.
The WEATHER helped the Russians.
The English Channel help Britain.
The Qattara Depression help Montgommery.
God helped us all!
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Corsaircid Come on, you can't compare the potential invasions of Britain 1940 and Japan 1945!...simply because of the strategic effect of 'the Bomb' itself.
Ru2S7 1 year ago
@Corsaircid Anyway despite our disagreements im glad our exchange has remained amicable and not descended into a slanging match as is so often the case on here. It's been both interesting and worthwhile if not now somewhat tiresome for us both.
In summary i agree that Hitler was never fully committed to Operation Sealion, however i still believe he'd have failed even if he had been because air superiority must be obtained and it wasn't because 'we' won the Battle of Britain. Tally-ho chaps! :)
Ru2S7 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 attacking Moscow was a political goal,Hitlers generals,suprisingly,were in favour of capturing Moscow thereby assuming the collapse of the soviet union.Hitler wanted the oilfields of the caucasus,hence the change of objective in 1942.It seems Hitler couldnt make up his mind;take the oilfields,now destroy Stalingrad as it bore Stalins name and pandered to idealogy.Interestingly, the USSR had a manpower reservoir of 17million men of military eligibility
farookbulsasra 1 year ago
@Corsaircid it was mussolini's fault, the delay on attacking Russia. Had he not cocked up his Balkans invasion,Hitler would not have delayed his USSR invasion to help Mussolini.That cost 2 vital months
farookbulsasra 1 year ago
@farookbulsasra Hi,your correct that Mussolini delayed the invasion of Russia.
Hitler wanted peace terms with Britain, that was a constant thorn on his side.
We seem to assume that the fall of Moscow would be the fall of Russia but the Russians would have retreated to the Urals to fight on as Britain would still be fighting a second front.
Hitler let Britain off the hook.
We can only speculate,
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Corsaircid that is correct farookbulsasra, The Soviets would never have surrendered if Moscow falls - You may remember the French did capture Moscow but the Russians did not gave up so they simply let their capital city in flames in order to get the French out with the help of very cold weather!
Stalin would have learned of this and might have ordered the Soviets to burn Moscow down when the Germans were very close but they did not get close when Soviets counter attacked thus saved Moscow.
DavBlc7 1 year ago
@DavBlc7 Hi there,I think you meant to be in agreement with me, not farookbulsasra.You put the comma in the wrong place!HA HA!
Your are correct too.The Soviets had built industries in the Urals to mass produce tanks and equipment.A German General once said "we pushed forward away from our supply base as we pushed the Soviets near to theirs".
If the war dragged on after Moscow the US would have no choice but to get involved as Japan would invade USSR from the East. We could go on,
Cheers!
Corsaircid 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 It is true Britain could rely on its radar stations, but still the British victory was only a close one. In the beginning of september 1940, the RAF was actually defeated, but the Germans didn't realize it. There was even an Invasion Alert declared in Britain, because the RAF was too incompetent at that moment to hold off an invasion force. But hen Göring changed tactics and bombed London instead of airfields and radar stations, the RAF could recover and won the battle of Britain.
MrBlackvegetable 1 year ago
@Ru2S7 "it was overwhelmingly a British victory in which the US played little part." there were actually American pilots in England even before Pearl harbour but they were volunteers - One RAF group with American pilots were known as "Eagle Group" with US eagle log on top of their RAF sleeves.
The other American help was that they gave old warships, ammo tanks, etc to Britain - it was known as the Lend- lease agreement. That agreement also extended to USSR when Nazi invaded Russia.
DavBlc7 1 year ago
"he could of well done this"
He could have tried, but it most likely would have failed anyway.
To invade Germany needed landing crafts and a strong surface fleet to protect them.
Germany had no specialized landing crafts, they were planning on using Rhine river barges.
And the other problem is the fact that the British Royal Navy(worlds largest at the time) was far superior to the Kriegsmarine, which would have made it very difficult to protect the invasion fleet.
jimmyn89 3 years ago 3
the royal navy wasnt the largest aat the time... due to the depression etc the navy scrapped most of the plans for new ships and reinforced older ships... also because of the washington and london navy treaties the royal fleet in 1939 was already well surpassed by the american and japaneese navies.... research mate...
Goose4god 2 years ago
Well the sites I visited claimed it was, but perhaps you're right.
Still the main point was that whether it was the largest or not it was still superior to the Kriegsmarine.
jimmyn89 2 years ago
Clever little production, but we British would have thrown everything we had at them and even then we wouldnt listen.
niggle1967 3 years ago
Yes, you might be right, however, the poor mother, who lost any of her children and husband du to the war would proabaly not try to go against them if the germans won, its most about fear, not honor. Need is always over honor, you might have not fallen to them, you might just have died, the people who care about their blood would fall. That's survival instinct.
HeniuriSaito 3 years ago
Gah! Kill it, kill it!!! The impossible operation sealion that was doomed to failure of doom!!
maddudeman 3 years ago
fantastic!!
Ronin2011 3 years ago
Ye ye. And those cocky britons would be cutting wood in syberia by now...
Zasp3 3 years ago