I love the two Newr Bat-Man movies and can't wait to see the last one. Also we were told Ledger died from drugs but I alwaysed wondered if that's what happened. Hollywood is sometimes visited by powerful and mentaly disterbed politions. Prehaps Ledger refused to fund one and was killed.
Heath Ledgers death pretty much tanked this version of the Bat-Man Franchise just when it recovered from those horrible other ones when Bat-Man almost went under permanatley as a live action franchise. I do think in the future however prehaps we'll see another take to Gotham's world that blows us away. The Joker is now invisioned as a thiny wirey character. I will always miss the what if Ledger version however. There was so much more of his Joker lefted undone.
Also interesting is how Nietzsche interrogated Christianity and concluded that it is the highest form of Nihilism. That it is born of a hatred of life and perversion of strength. He also predicted the situation we're in now, a paralyzing crisis of values. Is the planet we live on still being killed by the herd who knows but represses this knowledge to be able to enjoy continuing to engage in all the behaviors that will ensure that we will be soon extinct? Sounds like a hatred of life to me.
It could be that Nihilists were merely the rebels of their time and keep history/yin and yang going or whatever. Anarchists are similar to the first Nihilists. They both desired utopia (perfect balance of equality and liberty=Real/True Communism=No State and No Capitalism). Unfortunately, as can be seen in the way The State functions (parasitically spreading), Nihilism is everywhere today in the form of conformist neurosis. How else can you explain injustice and such little action?
The joker is no anarchist or nihilist. From what I have read, the first Nihilists were self-censored Russian Libertarian Socialists and truly meant "Life, reason, morality, truth have no meaning WITHIN THE PRESENT POLITICAL SYSTEM (which was monarchy?)". There have been many different interpretations after Nietzsche came around and called it a disease and showed how we can overcome it (affirmation). It seems Nihilism in many forms could be seen as the same as depression ("What's the point?")
There is a very clear difference between anarchism as a political movement and anarchism as it is presented in the capitalist media. The message is simple, discussion of alternate political systems is not permitted, so anarchists are presented as amoral destroyers in order to devalue their ideology.
capitalism is a totalitarian system, it does not allow or even discuss alternatives.
anarchists believe that people are, fundamentally, good and that it's the institutions of power and coercion (be they economic or the state institutions) are the cause of all societal problems. the Joker clearly thinks of the world as absurd and tries to expose the absurdity of people's goodness and the randomness of people's evil. he's a nihilist because, clearly, for him NOTHING has value, as everything can be mocked.
Goodvibesallround: "I'm a nihilist and proud of it. Fuck the work....i feel nothing anymore."
Really? Because I have to tell you Mr Nihilist (smirk), from where I'm standing you seem to be getting over-emotional about this. Now THAT'S funny.
It's a shame you are so blinkered by your myopic rage that you've lost confidence in your own arguments and are reduced to speculative insults. It's never nice to watch someone lose it like this so publicly.
@Mogwai786 While the argument is pitiful, it doesn't matter that a nihilist feels and shows emotion; simply that they believe that those emotions lack objective value.
"it doesn't matter that a nihilist feels and shows emotion; simply that they believe that those emotions lack objective value."
Judging emotions as having a lack of objective value does not make you a nihilist at all; that isn't even a core tenet of nihilism. If this was a precondition, we would all be nihilists.
Virtually everyone believes that emotions have a subjective value, not just nihilists. Your laughter, has a different value of laughter to mine.
@Mogwai786 True enough. What places a gap between you and me is that I believe that even the existence of the instance of subjective value pertaining to you is unknown [and therefore also subjective; basic (not metaphysical) solipsism], and I, as a nihilist, condemn its value as irrelevant.
The philosophy that originated in Russia in the 19th century was about a despair of reality and of it's alternatives. Nihilism is about a rejection of metaphysical and epistemological values, not those of a phenomenological nature ie. emotions. In any case, I don't see how a nihilist can feel and reject it as meaningless -it's a contradiction seeing as we at some point almost always act on our feelings.
True nihilists live in prisons, or as hermits -not in the real world.
@Mogwai786 Actions do not dictate meaning; hypocrisy is human nature. Also, I appear to be using a broader definition of nihilism than you. The nihilism I speak of is rejection of any values whatsoever. ALL is irrelevant.
That doesn't necessarily change anything. I will still behave as I choose to behave, and respond to sensations as I choose to respond.
It doesn't hinder my ability to think or act. That is a restriction for those desperate for meaning and purpose in their lives.
No, but they give rise to meaning. If you return to watching a show on tv because it made you laugh, you are giving meaning to your emotion, in this case laughter; you have inadvertently attached personal meaning by returning to it.To then treat your emotion afterwards as meaningless would be bizarre to say the least.
This is hypocrisy of nihilism. To simply blame "human nature" is not good enough to disentangle the nihilist from this web.
@Mogwai786 A nihilist does not consider personal meaning... meaningful. Bizarre, yes, but that is what we think; its difference from what you consider natural does not refute it.
Blame human nature? I'm not trying to wimp and abandon my own defense, here. My defense is that the concept of nihilism itself, if taken as truth, refutes the "web" which you find it so bound by. It is only your own belief that makes those tangles appear, and, I presume, your belief is not irrefutable truth.
My beliefs are not the issue; let's stick with nihilism please.
"A nihilist does not consider personal meaning meaningful."
And yet the nihilist is happy to act on an emotion and GIVE it meaning. Again, if a nihilist, say, punches someone on the basis of the anger they felt, they're giving meaning to that emotion in a way that if they didn't punch they would not.
Think of the absurdity of acting on an emotion, and yet declaring it meaningless - a plain contradiction.
@Mogwai786 You're completely missing the point. Placed in perspective, that "meaning", which has no grand sway, is not applicable, and can be dismissed with infinitesimally small amount of effort has no importance. You attach what you see as importance to it, but that doesn't make it actually relevant.
Contradiction, no. You assume that value and action are mutual, and that is a drastic assumption indeed; your beliefs ARE the issue here.
You haven't really pushed my argument any further.
“ that meaning, which has no grand sway...can be dismissed with infinitesimally small amount of effort “
No, if you re-read my examples you know why. Acting on emotion cannot help but GIVE rise to meaning of that emotion, it's tautological. You cannot separate the two.
To say that one can act on their anger, in other words to 'verify' it, and then disregard it as meaningless is a contradiction, it's counter-intuitive.
@Mogwai786 Tautological? I have never thought so, nor do I know of any reason to adopt that thought. That seems like bold conjecture to me. Once again, that relates to your own views and beliefs. There is no way to make a statement beyond basic solipsism and avoid self implication. If you wished not to have your beliefs discussed, you should not have made any statements.
@Mogwai786 And... hypocrisy IS human nature. People act in ways that contradict their beliefs all the time, in ALL ideologies. That statement isn't an abandonment of any stance, that's a refutation of the idea that the contradictions between ideology and actions disprove the ideology.
That manner of reasoning is flawed because, as it IS human nature to contradict oneself, it could easily be said that ideology does not exist, and that all of philosophy is false.
No, hypocrisy arises when values CLASH WITH human nature.Eg. The communist who does not wish to share his wealth, the multiculturist who wishes to keep with her own kind.
The hypocrisy of nihilism exists on it's own; the ideology ITSELF is in contradiction -no need to add human nature on this one. If a nihilist were to act on her beliefs (rejection of all values) they would be a walking contradiction, you can't survive without acting on values.
We live in a world where the principles of justice, virtue, equality, freedom of expression or action, responsibilities & rule of law all play an indispensable role in being an active citizen.
If one were to entertain the possibility of a nihilist existing (one who rejects all values) they would ride roughshod; they would steal, stop others' freedoms, extend their rights, actively undermine notions of equality and justice.
@Mogwai786 ... now that's just plain bigotry. If Nihilism were some petty code of behaviour, then all action would be pointless; the only way to exist falling into "the hypocrisy of Nihilism" would be to cease existence. However, Nihilism is not an idealistic philosophy, as you seem to believe. There is no mention of "should" in Nihilism, and therefore nothing to act upon except for whatever you choose to act upon.
? No. Nihilism is an ideology from the Greek 'ideas'. It IS about ideas.
It is a belief system -criticising it doesn't make one a bigot.
“ the only way to exist falling into the hypocrisy of Nihilism would be to cease existence”
No, the nihilistic person ceasing to exist NEGATES the individual of nihilism - the opposite of what nihilism endeavours. As I have said, REAL nihilism is found in supermax prisons, in asylums, in the wilderness where one can eschew humanity.
@Mogwai786 You didn't criticize the thought, though, you criticized the adherents as inherently harmful. "they would ride roughshod; they would steal, stop others' freedoms, extend their rights, actively undermine notions of equality and justice."
That has no bearing on the discussion without begging the question, and is personally insulting.
That actually isn't called begging the question. This is an inference. Based on the value system of nihilism, what it believes, and under the logical understanding that one would enact on the beliefs on their ideology.
You shouldn't be insulted; as I've intimated, the above is an example is of "true" nihilism. You're interpretation isn't of any historical nihilism.
I fail to belief that true nihilists are not nihilists at all. If I'm wrong, I'll apologise, but I'm not.
@Mogwai786 So there really is no "duty" here. And once again, your beliefs do come into question. You obviously have something of a "Hobbes was right" view on humanity. You believe that without attaching importance to certain constructed ideals, humans will naturally be at each others' throats. If this were so, I would be an infamous murderer by now. But this isn't about social interaction. It's about whether Nihilism is viable or not.
@Mogwai786 Also, the mere use of the word "duty" contradicts your argument. Nihilism has no "duty". There are no tenets to uphold, and if there were, the fundamental philosophy would condemn those tenets as empty and irrelevant.
Once again, this is a belief of existence that devalues morals and truths as empty and irrelevant [in perspective (which is infinite) they are], it has nothing to do with idealism.
@Mogwai786 It's simply impossible to compare it with conventional ideologies, so I really don't understand what contradictions there are that you see.
You can't just ignore the content (or lack thereof) of the ideology in order to refute it with generalization.
The statement "X should be a member of group A but fits none of the criteria to be A, and has no relation to A" should yield the thought "X is not a member of A".
Because that means you're assuming the first statement.
@Mogwai786 I would avoid logical fallacy though. Logic plummets both of our arguments down the pit of subjectivism, into the gaping void of "I don't know."
And once we reach that point, both our arguments are pointless and futile.
Sending 11 posts en masse hasn't helped your argument or clarity. Reading through them, you could have made your point in about 4 posts. I could have smothered you with countless arguments, but I have made a concerted effort to reduce the posts to a readable few.
It should be noted that you were able to pick up the thread of this debate and interject easily. I'm sure you know that others may be reading this, and sadly, all these posts have made it interminably difficult to follow.
@Mogwai786 My apologies for my lack of brevity. When I respond to a post, I tend to make a full response to each individual argument. Hard to do with 500 characters. And I never liked brief statements. They never fully explain the point, and they're not nearly as fun to write.
Perhaps, but you and I are not the only actors in this; a vast number watch this video may also wish to follow the arguments. Plus, giving a full response as opposed to sending, say, three posts (not exactly brief) doesn't make things clearer.
I myself would prefer to send a mini-treatise, but there is no utility in sending a wall of arguments, either for clarity or progressing the argument.
Regardless, I will only be responding to 3 of your strongest points each time.
@Mogwai786 Discussion aside, props to you on maintaining a civil disposition. At this point we both seem to be repeating ourselves, but you haven't fallen to insulting me; I have, henceforth, utmost respect for you.
Second, my beliefs are NOT at issue. This page concentrates on notions surrounding anarchism & nihilism, this debate concerns the latter. My position is that of the non-nihilist, simply that. If you wish to debate MY beliefs, you may do so via personal message.
Third, I strongly suggest that you limit your responses; posting a treatise is not helpful to me, your argument or any third party who wishes to pick up the thread of this debate.
@Mogwai786 However, you have continued the argument, and I'm in too good a mood to be silent. The debate continues.
That said, just to spite you for "strongly suggesting" me to limit my statements, I will go ahead and say something silly and incoherent. Banana-nut-ninnymuffins, and I hope you continue to have a splendidly purple past. Meat.
@Mogwai786 I understand that the statement about the ninnymuffins isn't helpful to my argument, you, or other observers and participants, but I rather enjoyed writing it.
And then, what purpose does the argument serve in general? You appear to be sincerely invested, I am rather enjoying myself, and goodvibes was particularly impassioned, but none of it relates to the video, and none of us seem to be influencing each others' opinions. Would it not be wise to close the discussion?
@Mogwai786 Once again, you assume that value and action are one and the same, and that one is needed for the other to exist; I find that this is not so. There is more behind action than ideology, and there is more to ideology than action. Were this some code of behaviour, such as chivalry, bushido, Leviticus, or American Federal Law, certainly, you could stress hypocrisy, but this is not the case.
I'm always fascinated that I find more nihilists on online forums than in real life.
True philosophical nihilists would NEVER go onto a website like this and exclaim something as bizarre as "I'm a nihilist and proud of it....I feel nothing". Simply, they would never feel pride, and they would never feel any sensation to tell anyone about it. And if you don't feel anything, then that is just utterly ridiculous (smirk).
@Mogwai786 Feelings relate to nihilism only in that they are meaningless. That does not negate their presence.
I'm a nihilist. But I still love, hate, become happy and sad, laugh cry, and interact with people. It doesn't mean that any of that matters. I act how it pleases me to act, simply because I choose to. It pleases me to do so. I simply don't feel the need for (or acknowledge any presence of) purpose and absolute values.
In his infinite wisdom, goodvibesallround implicitly posited that he was a nihilist NECESSARILY because he felt nothing. I am well aware of what the definitions, preconditions, and examples of nihilism -as ludicrous as they are. Direct these statements to him, not me.
True nihilists, that is to say those that are not internally inconsistent, are often found as hermits or incarcerated given their extreme philosophy.
@Mogwai786 props on knowing the category types of nihilism. never heard a single lecturer talk about that. good point. probly the only point u made that was good (u strike me as a fanboy./girl with a batman fetish)
ur logic - batman can do no wrong because he's batman. about as logical as cult logic
I appreciate your compliment, but truthfully, I made quite a few good points throughout. I have no problems in admitting my mistakes, so long as they can be put to me with rational thought out points.
"u strike me as a fanboy./girl with a batman fetish"
I admit I find the Batman story fascinating, but fetishising him? No. I respect the Batman mythology, but I do not revere him. I'm not a fanboy by anyone's stretch of the imagination -i accept his limits.
@Mogwai786 Oh no! where i'am i to hide?! help. Hahahaha you fool. Don't you get it. I don't care what you think.....therefore your stupid fucking opinions don't matter.....don't you see. Talk about thick!
@Mogwai786 gotham's simple. poverty, crime and a weak police and government gave room for a mafia. this corrupted an already weak and inept government, or lat least forced them to turn a blind eye, since they lacked the support and manpower.
randomly bruces parents were shot. bruce disappears to figure crfap out
solution - dress like a bat to beat up crooks. because that will fix gotham............ somehow
and like nolan said in the vid, this escalation of force made gotham even worse
It's a comic legend. It was developed in the late 30s by obstensibly a kid wanting to hang onto the coattails of Superman. Comic narratives are great for escapism; but we expect them to mirrors of our society too, there's nothing wrong in that. But that does not mean they have to be so literal, they're allegories, not instructions to follow to the letter.
Further, I have no problem in believing the "escalation" argument -what's your point?
@Mogwai786 ur an idiot who put way to much stock in this depressing fairytale.
yea i forgot about the no mans land thing - whatever. im talking about if gotham city existed in real life. if there was a town full of violent and colorful sociopaths who controlled a major town (and on several occasions the penguin and two face and others controlled vast swathes of gotham) or simply ran roughshod like frieze (and broke out of jail constantly) national or at least state action would be taken
"ur an idiot who put way to much stock in this depressing fairytale."
(Sighs). Again with the name calling. You should concentrate on your arguments and not in name calling - using ad hominems doesn't further your points, only well thought out arguments do that.
"ur an idiot who put way to much stock in this depressing fairytale."
And yet you seem to be having an aneurism at the fact that Gotham doesn't follow the vicissitudes of more "real" cities.
these people have no idea what they're talking about.. the Joker is completely logical how else would he elude everyone so easily? None of the adaptations I've seen suggest he has psychosis. He's a full blown sociopath and the guy 5:27 has it right
Violently aggressive psychopathy, Delusions of grandeur, Fixated narcissism, Sadistic behaviour, Pathological lying, Disregard for human life, Suicide Ideation, Multiple manic mood swings, Superficial charm, Lack of sympathy and lack of empathy and Nihilistic behaviour.
These largely make most of the symptoms of psychopathy. are you seriously trying to tell me you have found this in NONE of the stories of the Joker?
@Mogwai786 Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, usually including false beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions) and seeing or hearing things that aren't there (hallucinations). Give me one example that suggests any of this in the Joker. He is well aware of what is actually going on he's just evil
@Mogwai786 please give me some examples of skewed logic. Also what you said doesn't really make a connection with psychosis. I haven't read Batman Confidential but I have seen The Dark Knight and read, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, the first two Knightfalls, Arkham Asylum, Haunted Knight, The Killing Joke and I don't recall any of them showing hints of psychosis in the Joker. It would be reductive to the character if he wasn't fully aware of what he was doing. He loves messing with society
Well you asked for one example, and I gave it. I admire your back reading on the Dark Knight, but seeing that we're unzipping and letting our chaps flop out to measure whose is bigger, I should say that my knowledge is extensive. Modesty does not permit me to tell you to what extent.
Look at the symptoms I listed below, most of them instigate a loss in logic, and so a loss in reality -the two are closely connected.Eg.you can't have a delusion without losing logic
@LukaszPrzek yea batman broke gotham and he has to stick around to fix it. its like iraq, in that way
and yes, ur right that a mass exodus of a millioned populace city isnt possible. in which case, why is it some random vigilante is the only person doing anything to fix gotham's socioeconomic (and at this point, psychological) problems?
and its not like stalking the nights is his only option. hes a freakin billionaire
True nihilists do not tend to converge on websites such as YouTube leaving comments; they are usually found committing acts which contravene institutions and the rule of law at best, and throwing their pc out the window and other technological devices at worst...
@goodvibesallround lol crazy girls are a hell of a lot of fun. u just have to keep them away from sharp n knives (or in my case, igve it to them in abundance)
@NIETZSCHEAN14 mate, theres a camp in Aushwitz with Gas chambers. I think thats proof enough. And why is there so much anti-sematism throughout history? Jews have done nothing to provoke this kinda hate. Christians had crusades, Muslims have terrorists attacks, but Jews did nothing at all!
"holocaust surviver" (lol). The Jews who control the mass-media always have to get their sacred cash-cow mentioned int there somewhere. There is no proof that the Germans gassed any Jews. The Jews that were in the camps deserved to be there, because they were judged to be a danger to the German nation. Any nation, with a sense of self-preservation, would do the same thing. The bullshit about "The Holocaust" has been thoroughly debunked by the "Holocaust" revisionists. Go to CODOHCOM.
I think the commentors here suggesting that Joker is a genius aren't wrong- but I don't understand why they're basically reiterating what was already said in the video. Joker believes that the joke is Batman's life- and while he could explain it he chooses to keep the joke to himself. And only a smart guy keeps it to himself, ergo why someone like the Riddler could never truly be smarter than Batman.
JOKER is a genius who realises that society enslaves the beings and his action simply show that society is an big fat joke our morals principles rules desires governments borders emotional attachments(family and friends) and every single crap that forms our society and that keep you from being yourself and it is society that creates "serial killers" and "criminals" and when you are free from the shackles of society you'll realise that the whole idea of society is hillarious you laugh non stop
@Mogwai786 I called you a moron because you claim to know me based solely on 2 comments and my Youtube page. I'm in awe of your arrogance, stupidity and pure ignorance on the matter! It's moron's (key word) like you that base everything on stereotypes rather than asking direct questions.....Do the world a favor and kiss a .38.
I'm always fascinated that I find more nihilists on online forums than in real life.
True philosophical nihilists would NEVER go onto a website like this and exclaim something as bizarre as "I'm a nihilist and proud of it....I feel nothing". Simply, they would never feel pride, and they would never feel any sensation to tell anyone about it. And if you don't feel anything, then that is just utterly ridiculous (smirk).
@corduran thats the modern interpretation. hes probly the only person in the dc universe who realizes how messed up their world is. but him aping a crazy person hardly counts as a useful solution
cool DOCU BUT MANY Mistakes...Joker was intro in 1939 not 1940...He went nuts cos he lost wife n baby. He was a chemist that wanted to be a comedian but he sucked at stand up that why when he had not nothing left w/ his immediate family death he went nutz.
Now he makes the world laugh at his expense. N despite his crazyness he a genius cos it well known all genius are a lil' insane.
These guys also failed mentioned Joker has a MAN CRUSH on Batman. Hates him but can NOT kill him.
That kid wanted to kill Reagan. LOL he was brainwashed assasin cos the NWO wanted to sent a message to REAGAN. Pls man no one gets that close range to take a shot at pres unless THE powers that be allow it.
at almost 4 mins."not about money." Man i loved Ledgers version but peo got get that idea out of there heads THE JOKER IS ABOUT money cos money = power. Peo assume cos chris nolan;s version was not about money.... that all bible of the joker. Newsflash the joker loves MONEY!
@Mogwai786 Why is it that you post on youtube but have no video content posted? Why do you give a shit about if I pontificate on how screwed up batman is?
I did not realise having questions answered was contingent on having content uploaded -that YouTube rule must have slipped by me and others.
I may comment on YouTube for reasons similar to your own, and hundreds of millions of others. You must at least expect to encounter some queries when you make such a bizarre statement about Batman.
You have committed the Red Herring Fallacy, and attempted to focus on issues of irrelevance.
BURT: Well because only now is the story complete. When I entered BATMAN as a naive 20-year-old who had only dated a couple of girls, I met Adam West, who immediately introduced me to the wildest sexual debauchery that you can imagine. Within a few months we were like two hungry sharks in a world of unlimited halibut. (laughter). Maybe I'm a little too harsh on Adam. Actually, to be more descriptive, he was more like a killer whale in a world of plankton. Together we had this wild time.
Another question. Why did you pluck out a transcript of Burt Ward talking about his time with Adam West with vague sexual references (didn't you say "sexual PROBLEMS" -I don't see any in the transcript) as proof that BATMAN has "severe sexual problems". You do know that one of them is fictional.
The joker is a psycho-sociopath nihilist who enjoys his share of anarchy but batman is a privileged vigilante and has severe sexuality problems. I forget if there was ever a Che Guevara/Robin Hood archetype criminal in Gotham but that would be interesting or maybe a moreFrench revolutionary figure to upset the Gotham status quo.
Batman knows hes not pure. does anyone ever know if their actions are ever compleatly pure. no. right & wrong. good & evil. their friends for real. in some peoples heads their not.so thats their reality. their ill. so this is a film about a schitzopheren person in a battle with him or herself. positiv & negativ needs to work together. not fight one another.there is no innocense.and there is innocense.
Joker's character was created way back in the day when our understanding of mental disorders was vastly different... and incomplete. Trying to figure out or "diagnose" joker is ridiculous. He has traits of psychopathy, schizophrenia, and antisocial personality disorder, but there is more to it than this. He was made as an image of a person's idea of someone who is "insane" or a "lunatic". However, neither insane nor lunatic are medical terms. They do not describe any real mental disorders.
ok guys I need you to say rate my Joker, Im going to make the batman movie... so my joker is going to be my joker
He will not have scars( like heaths) and he will Not fall in to acid ( JAcks,Marks,) but he will wear make up / that way he is more sick) and will be dressed in torn straitjacket and a hat. He will be crime junky... I will not reaveal enything about his history but only one small thingy :D
Noam Chomsky is a type of anarchist and whatever you think of him he is not in favor of murdering people. There are different types of anarchist. Just pointing that out.
The Joker is a psychotic, nihilistic douche-bag. Great performance by Ledger. :-( bummer
Sometimes a mind can tolerate only so much injustice that it must become WORSE than what attacks it in order to survive. Society IS the joke and the Joker IS the punchline.
They cheapen it and miss it by calling it a mental illness and comparing him to delusional lunatics... he knows exactly what he's doing, is intelligent and understands himself. He just has... a different world view then most
@Ryakki Sorry, that is utter nonsense. The Joker is fully psychotic. He suffers from the following symptoms at one point or another: Violently aggressive psychopathy Delusions of grandeur Fixated narcissism Sadistic behaviour Pathological lying Disregard for human life Suicide Ideation Multiple manic mood swings Superficial charm Lack of sympathy and lack of empathy Nihilistic behaviour Even according to the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, he over qualifies.
Your comment creates a false dichotomy; that having a mental illness is mutually exclusive from knowing exactly what you do/intelligence/understands yourself. You can have someone who has a mental illness and yet IS intelligent, KNOWS what he's doing, and UNDERSTANDS himself. The point is whether it is GROUNDED in reality. Eg. Joker understands himself so well, he would like Gothamites to have a toxic grin like him (because he thinks it would be a better place). His logic is the issue
I'm not sure I understand your first point. Of course being unpopular doesn't make you crazy, but I'm not sure where I endorsed that notion, or its relevance to this point.
Appealing to the supernatural is not integral to being psychotic. In other words, believing in the supernatural is not a sufficient or necessary condition to having a psychosis. If it were the case, then the absurdity would be that atheists would never have a predilection towards psychosis.
Again, I don't understand what you meant by inferring someone is crazy from unpopularity. Can you put your comments in context to what preceded them, so we can have a clear thread of thought through the different posts instead of one line replies please?
Your first point,I did say that he wants everyone to experience what he did (toxic grin for example, or they themselves feeling pain),and this action reflects a multitude of symptoms to psychosis I mentioned earlier.That's my point
He is delusional, BECAUSE of his failed logic, and his warped sense of morality.
What makes him psychotic is not just that he wants to kill and maim lots of people in itself, but that by doing so he THINKS the world would be a better place ( eg. he will fit in better as everyone else will have a toxic grin or madness is freedom, or life is not sacred but death is freedom)
It is his lack of logic (and therefore his loss on reality) that makes him psychotic.
At least in The Dark Knight, he never makes any of the claims you do, that he's making the world a better place (perhaps a more honest place), or that he wants to fit in.
The Joker I'm referring to is the Joker of the source. There are different Jokers, & the different reasons I give why Joker may wish to change the world reflect that.
Look at the TDK Joker; he possesses many of the symptoms I mentioned earlier -I can go through them again if you want?
The key to the delusion of the Joker (any Joker) is the absence of, or flawed, logic -which shows a defect reality ie. he wants Gotham to be in anarchy because he THINKS it would be better (& honest).
Well, flawed logic and wanting other people to live how you think they should doesn't make someone crazy. If it did, we'd have sanitariums in place of churches. In fact TDK joker sees reality far clearer and more realistically than a religious person. I think if you want to classify him as crazy for those things, you'd have to diagnose most of the world.
Not that I'd disagree with you if you did, but just saying, in those things he's less crazy than most.
Of course not. But re-read what I said about it being grounded with a PSYCHOTIC symptom (see the list).
Sometimes, flawed logic ALONE doesn't make you crazy (eg. I'm better than everyone). And exhibiting one of the psychotic symptoms ALONE doesn't make you psychotic either (eg. delusions of grandeur). But BOTH together probably do (eg. delusions of grandeur because everyone else is less human (made of cheese) or I am more than human).
I love the two Newr Bat-Man movies and can't wait to see the last one. Also we were told Ledger died from drugs but I alwaysed wondered if that's what happened. Hollywood is sometimes visited by powerful and mentaly disterbed politions. Prehaps Ledger refused to fund one and was killed.
jakewestwn 2 weeks ago
Heath Ledgers death pretty much tanked this version of the Bat-Man Franchise just when it recovered from those horrible other ones when Bat-Man almost went under permanatley as a live action franchise. I do think in the future however prehaps we'll see another take to Gotham's world that blows us away. The Joker is now invisioned as a thiny wirey character. I will always miss the what if Ledger version however. There was so much more of his Joker lefted undone.
jakewestwn 2 weeks ago
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@jakewestwn well said
asslover425 5 days ago
More of an add for Batman then a discussion on Nihilism.
MrBluerizlas 2 weeks ago
Also interesting is how Nietzsche interrogated Christianity and concluded that it is the highest form of Nihilism. That it is born of a hatred of life and perversion of strength. He also predicted the situation we're in now, a paralyzing crisis of values. Is the planet we live on still being killed by the herd who knows but represses this knowledge to be able to enjoy continuing to engage in all the behaviors that will ensure that we will be soon extinct? Sounds like a hatred of life to me.
jeffreygarten 2 weeks ago
It could be that Nihilists were merely the rebels of their time and keep history/yin and yang going or whatever. Anarchists are similar to the first Nihilists. They both desired utopia (perfect balance of equality and liberty=Real/True Communism=No State and No Capitalism). Unfortunately, as can be seen in the way The State functions (parasitically spreading), Nihilism is everywhere today in the form of conformist neurosis. How else can you explain injustice and such little action?
jeffreygarten 2 weeks ago
The joker is no anarchist or nihilist. From what I have read, the first Nihilists were self-censored Russian Libertarian Socialists and truly meant "Life, reason, morality, truth have no meaning WITHIN THE PRESENT POLITICAL SYSTEM (which was monarchy?)". There have been many different interpretations after Nietzsche came around and called it a disease and showed how we can overcome it (affirmation). It seems Nihilism in many forms could be seen as the same as depression ("What's the point?")
jeffreygarten 2 weeks ago
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TheKelpie13 3 weeks ago in playlist Favorite videos
There is a very clear difference between anarchism as a political movement and anarchism as it is presented in the capitalist media. The message is simple, discussion of alternate political systems is not permitted, so anarchists are presented as amoral destroyers in order to devalue their ideology.
capitalism is a totalitarian system, it does not allow or even discuss alternatives.
asubjectiveopinion 3 weeks ago 2
anarchists believe that people are, fundamentally, good and that it's the institutions of power and coercion (be they economic or the state institutions) are the cause of all societal problems. the Joker clearly thinks of the world as absurd and tries to expose the absurdity of people's goodness and the randomness of people's evil. he's a nihilist because, clearly, for him NOTHING has value, as everything can be mocked.
Regenmacher175 3 weeks ago
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In a few months our channel pages will be gone, there will be no more social interaction if we don't stop YouTube.
The BLACK OUT DATE for YouTube is January 16th at 1:00am where YOU are, what ever your time zone. DON't NOT LOG INTO YOUR ACCOUNT THAT DAY.
BY January 15TH MAKE ANY VIDS YOU HAVE PRIVATE.
Pass this forward.
speedsurfer123 1 month ago
Goodvibesallround: "I'm a nihilist and proud of it. Fuck the work....i feel nothing anymore."
Really? Because I have to tell you Mr Nihilist (smirk), from where I'm standing you seem to be getting over-emotional about this. Now THAT'S funny.
It's a shame you are so blinkered by your myopic rage that you've lost confidence in your own arguments and are reduced to speculative insults. It's never nice to watch someone lose it like this so publicly.
You're not a nihilist, you're a farce.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 While the argument is pitiful, it doesn't matter that a nihilist feels and shows emotion; simply that they believe that those emotions lack objective value.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
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@ZomBLord
"it doesn't matter that a nihilist feels and shows emotion; simply that they believe that those emotions lack objective value."
Judging emotions as having a lack of objective value does not make you a nihilist at all; that isn't even a core tenet of nihilism. If this was a precondition, we would all be nihilists.
Virtually everyone believes that emotions have a subjective value, not just nihilists. Your laughter, has a different value of laughter to mine.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 True enough. What places a gap between you and me is that I believe that even the existence of the instance of subjective value pertaining to you is unknown [and therefore also subjective; basic (not metaphysical) solipsism], and I, as a nihilist, condemn its value as irrelevant.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
The philosophy that originated in Russia in the 19th century was about a despair of reality and of it's alternatives. Nihilism is about a rejection of metaphysical and epistemological values, not those of a phenomenological nature ie. emotions. In any case, I don't see how a nihilist can feel and reject it as meaningless -it's a contradiction seeing as we at some point almost always act on our feelings.
True nihilists live in prisons, or as hermits -not in the real world.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Actions do not dictate meaning; hypocrisy is human nature. Also, I appear to be using a broader definition of nihilism than you. The nihilism I speak of is rejection of any values whatsoever. ALL is irrelevant.
That doesn't necessarily change anything. I will still behave as I choose to behave, and respond to sensations as I choose to respond.
It doesn't hinder my ability to think or act. That is a restriction for those desperate for meaning and purpose in their lives.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
"Actions do not dictate meaning"
No, but they give rise to meaning. If you return to watching a show on tv because it made you laugh, you are giving meaning to your emotion, in this case laughter; you have inadvertently attached personal meaning by returning to it.To then treat your emotion afterwards as meaningless would be bizarre to say the least.
This is hypocrisy of nihilism. To simply blame "human nature" is not good enough to disentangle the nihilist from this web.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 A nihilist does not consider personal meaning... meaningful. Bizarre, yes, but that is what we think; its difference from what you consider natural does not refute it.
Blame human nature? I'm not trying to wimp and abandon my own defense, here. My defense is that the concept of nihilism itself, if taken as truth, refutes the "web" which you find it so bound by. It is only your own belief that makes those tangles appear, and, I presume, your belief is not irrefutable truth.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
My beliefs are not the issue; let's stick with nihilism please.
"A nihilist does not consider personal meaning meaningful."
And yet the nihilist is happy to act on an emotion and GIVE it meaning. Again, if a nihilist, say, punches someone on the basis of the anger they felt, they're giving meaning to that emotion in a way that if they didn't punch they would not.
Think of the absurdity of acting on an emotion, and yet declaring it meaningless - a plain contradiction.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 You're completely missing the point. Placed in perspective, that "meaning", which has no grand sway, is not applicable, and can be dismissed with infinitesimally small amount of effort has no importance. You attach what you see as importance to it, but that doesn't make it actually relevant.
Contradiction, no. You assume that value and action are mutual, and that is a drastic assumption indeed; your beliefs ARE the issue here.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
You haven't really pushed my argument any further.
“ that meaning, which has no grand sway...can be dismissed with infinitesimally small amount of effort “
No, if you re-read my examples you know why. Acting on emotion cannot help but GIVE rise to meaning of that emotion, it's tautological. You cannot separate the two.
To say that one can act on their anger, in other words to 'verify' it, and then disregard it as meaningless is a contradiction, it's counter-intuitive.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Tautological? I have never thought so, nor do I know of any reason to adopt that thought. That seems like bold conjecture to me. Once again, that relates to your own views and beliefs. There is no way to make a statement beyond basic solipsism and avoid self implication. If you wished not to have your beliefs discussed, you should not have made any statements.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Now, begging the question, if it were self-evident, then yes, there would be some contradiction.
1. When I feel x and do y because of x, I create meaning.
2. Nihilism states that meaning has no value.
3. Valueless concepts are irrelevant.
4. When I feel x and do y because of x, it is irrelevant.
This equates essentially to "value has no value", disproving the original statement.
Which definitive of Nihilism. What did you expect?
ZomBLord 1 month ago
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@ZomBLord
1. When I feel x and do y because of x, I create meaning(I said "give rise")
2. Nihilism STATES that meaning has no value.(you also said meaning is meaningless)
3. Valueless (meaningless) concepts are irrelevant.
4. When I feel x and do y because of x, [it is(?)] irrelevant.
Sorry this is an invalid argument. Premise 2 purports what nihilism believes (it doesn't declare it true), BUT 4 exclaims "it is" true.
The best you can do is preface 4 with "Nihilism believes..."
Mogwai786 4 weeks ago
@Mogwai786 And... hypocrisy IS human nature. People act in ways that contradict their beliefs all the time, in ALL ideologies. That statement isn't an abandonment of any stance, that's a refutation of the idea that the contradictions between ideology and actions disprove the ideology.
That manner of reasoning is flawed because, as it IS human nature to contradict oneself, it could easily be said that ideology does not exist, and that all of philosophy is false.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
"hypocrisy IS human nature"
No, hypocrisy arises when values CLASH WITH human nature.Eg. The communist who does not wish to share his wealth, the multiculturist who wishes to keep with her own kind.
The hypocrisy of nihilism exists on it's own; the ideology ITSELF is in contradiction -no need to add human nature on this one. If a nihilist were to act on her beliefs (rejection of all values) they would be a walking contradiction, you can't survive without acting on values.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786
We live in a world where the principles of justice, virtue, equality, freedom of expression or action, responsibilities & rule of law all play an indispensable role in being an active citizen.
If one were to entertain the possibility of a nihilist existing (one who rejects all values) they would ride roughshod; they would steal, stop others' freedoms, extend their rights, actively undermine notions of equality and justice.
Such is the duty of an unhypocritical nihilist.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 ... now that's just plain bigotry. If Nihilism were some petty code of behaviour, then all action would be pointless; the only way to exist falling into "the hypocrisy of Nihilism" would be to cease existence. However, Nihilism is not an idealistic philosophy, as you seem to believe. There is no mention of "should" in Nihilism, and therefore nothing to act upon except for whatever you choose to act upon.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
? No. Nihilism is an ideology from the Greek 'ideas'. It IS about ideas.
It is a belief system -criticising it doesn't make one a bigot.
“ the only way to exist falling into the hypocrisy of Nihilism would be to cease existence”
No, the nihilistic person ceasing to exist NEGATES the individual of nihilism - the opposite of what nihilism endeavours. As I have said, REAL nihilism is found in supermax prisons, in asylums, in the wilderness where one can eschew humanity.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
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@Mogwai786 You didn't criticize the thought, though, you criticized the adherents as inherently harmful. "they would ride roughshod; they would steal, stop others' freedoms, extend their rights, actively undermine notions of equality and justice."
That has no bearing on the discussion without begging the question, and is personally insulting.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
That actually isn't called begging the question. This is an inference. Based on the value system of nihilism, what it believes, and under the logical understanding that one would enact on the beliefs on their ideology.
You shouldn't be insulted; as I've intimated, the above is an example is of "true" nihilism. You're interpretation isn't of any historical nihilism.
I fail to belief that true nihilists are not nihilists at all. If I'm wrong, I'll apologise, but I'm not.
Mogwai786 4 weeks ago
@Mogwai786 So there really is no "duty" here. And once again, your beliefs do come into question. You obviously have something of a "Hobbes was right" view on humanity. You believe that without attaching importance to certain constructed ideals, humans will naturally be at each others' throats. If this were so, I would be an infamous murderer by now. But this isn't about social interaction. It's about whether Nihilism is viable or not.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Also, the mere use of the word "duty" contradicts your argument. Nihilism has no "duty". There are no tenets to uphold, and if there were, the fundamental philosophy would condemn those tenets as empty and irrelevant.
Once again, this is a belief of existence that devalues morals and truths as empty and irrelevant [in perspective (which is infinite) they are], it has nothing to do with idealism.
Which I once again stress is not the issue here.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
You have committed the fallacy of Special Pleading.
Nihilism is an ideology, an 'ism'. It adopts a system of beliefs like all ideologies. It ought to follow the rules like any other ideology.
The reason for ideologies are so we can adopt a coherent, cogent web of beliefs that we may act on without contradiction.
You need to explain, WHY nihilism is somehow a special case. Why is nihilism allowed to collect the 'Pass Go' card?
The burden of proof is upon the nihilist.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Nihilism isn't really an ideology in the conventional sense. Ideology requires an ideal. Something to expect, something to grasp.
The "system of beliefs" is as simple as "nothing matters". Anything else is merely correlation.
If you took away all ideologies, Nihilism is just a term we attach to the void they leave behind.
It has no substance with which we can attach it to the parameters you are trying to force.
It's only content is "disregard all content".
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 It's simply impossible to compare it with conventional ideologies, so I really don't understand what contradictions there are that you see.
You can't just ignore the content (or lack thereof) of the ideology in order to refute it with generalization.
The statement "X should be a member of group A but fits none of the criteria to be A, and has no relation to A" should yield the thought "X is not a member of A".
Because that means you're assuming the first statement.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
Nihilists EXPECT & GRASP onto the idea nothing matters.
"If you took away all ideologies Nihilism is a term we attach to the void left behind"
No, nihilism too would go -you need to justify why it isn't an ideology.
"It's simply impossible to compare it with conventional ideologies, I don't understand what contradictions there are "
Re-read my posts concerning emotion, action & meaning.
The burden of proof still lies on you. You must PROVE WHY it isn't an ideology.
Mogwai786 4 weeks ago
@Mogwai786 You can't define nothing as anything but the absence of something.
Saying "nothing" = "something" or "false" = "true" is contradictory itself.
Once again, I stand by my claim that your own assumptions and views regarding Nihilism are the source of the contradiction.
To require something of nothing is a contradiction. You seek an ideal in an absence of ideals.
You seek structure and content in a void of structure and content.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Your beliefs are not a separate issue because comparison is required for any understanding of the concept.
Nihilism has no position other than the absence of content. In order for Nihilism to exist, content must be supplied.
Without your belief, Nihilism ceases to have definition, and ceases to exist.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 I would avoid logical fallacy though. Logic plummets both of our arguments down the pit of subjectivism, into the gaping void of "I don't know."
And once we reach that point, both our arguments are pointless and futile.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
Sending 11 posts en masse hasn't helped your argument or clarity. Reading through them, you could have made your point in about 4 posts. I could have smothered you with countless arguments, but I have made a concerted effort to reduce the posts to a readable few.
It should be noted that you were able to pick up the thread of this debate and interject easily. I'm sure you know that others may be reading this, and sadly, all these posts have made it interminably difficult to follow.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 My apologies for my lack of brevity. When I respond to a post, I tend to make a full response to each individual argument. Hard to do with 500 characters. And I never liked brief statements. They never fully explain the point, and they're not nearly as fun to write.
And I do this for fun, mind you.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
Perhaps, but you and I are not the only actors in this; a vast number watch this video may also wish to follow the arguments. Plus, giving a full response as opposed to sending, say, three posts (not exactly brief) doesn't make things clearer.
I myself would prefer to send a mini-treatise, but there is no utility in sending a wall of arguments, either for clarity or progressing the argument.
Regardless, I will only be responding to 3 of your strongest points each time.
Mogwai786 4 weeks ago
@Mogwai786 Discussion aside, props to you on maintaining a civil disposition. At this point we both seem to be repeating ourselves, but you haven't fallen to insulting me; I have, henceforth, utmost respect for you.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
First, thanks for the compliment.
Second, my beliefs are NOT at issue. This page concentrates on notions surrounding anarchism & nihilism, this debate concerns the latter. My position is that of the non-nihilist, simply that. If you wish to debate MY beliefs, you may do so via personal message.
Third, I strongly suggest that you limit your responses; posting a treatise is not helpful to me, your argument or any third party who wishes to pick up the thread of this debate.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 No, but it's a respectful way to back out of a discussion without antagonizing or surrendering to one's opponent.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 However, you have continued the argument, and I'm in too good a mood to be silent. The debate continues.
That said, just to spite you for "strongly suggesting" me to limit my statements, I will go ahead and say something silly and incoherent. Banana-nut-ninnymuffins, and I hope you continue to have a splendidly purple past. Meat.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 I understand that the statement about the ninnymuffins isn't helpful to my argument, you, or other observers and participants, but I rather enjoyed writing it.
And then, what purpose does the argument serve in general? You appear to be sincerely invested, I am rather enjoying myself, and goodvibes was particularly impassioned, but none of it relates to the video, and none of us seem to be influencing each others' opinions. Would it not be wise to close the discussion?
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Once again, you assume that value and action are one and the same, and that one is needed for the other to exist; I find that this is not so. There is more behind action than ideology, and there is more to ideology than action. Were this some code of behaviour, such as chivalry, bushido, Leviticus, or American Federal Law, certainly, you could stress hypocrisy, but this is not the case.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
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ZomBLord 1 month ago
If you don't care, then why are you getting so worked up over this? Even your spelling has gone out the window.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
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Mogwai786 1 month ago
Are you going to continue to spam my comments just because you are incapable of matching my arguments -are you that terrified? Amusing.
How utterly pitiful and pathetic of you.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@goodvibesallround
I'm always fascinated that I find more nihilists on online forums than in real life.
True philosophical nihilists would NEVER go onto a website like this and exclaim something as bizarre as "I'm a nihilist and proud of it....I feel nothing". Simply, they would never feel pride, and they would never feel any sensation to tell anyone about it. And if you don't feel anything, then that is just utterly ridiculous (smirk).
You sir, are a fraud.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Feelings relate to nihilism only in that they are meaningless. That does not negate their presence.
I'm a nihilist. But I still love, hate, become happy and sad, laugh cry, and interact with people. It doesn't mean that any of that matters. I act how it pleases me to act, simply because I choose to. It pleases me to do so. I simply don't feel the need for (or acknowledge any presence of) purpose and absolute values.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
@ZomBLord
I think you've missed the central issue here.
In his infinite wisdom, goodvibesallround implicitly posited that he was a nihilist NECESSARILY because he felt nothing. I am well aware of what the definitions, preconditions, and examples of nihilism -as ludicrous as they are. Direct these statements to him, not me.
True nihilists, that is to say those that are not internally inconsistent, are often found as hermits or incarcerated given their extreme philosophy.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Oh.
goodvibesallround, you are a disgrace to nothing. Which doesn't really matter, so don't worry about it.
ZomBLord 1 month ago
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Mogwai786 1 month ago
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Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 props on knowing the category types of nihilism. never heard a single lecturer talk about that. good point. probly the only point u made that was good (u strike me as a fanboy./girl with a batman fetish)
ur logic - batman can do no wrong because he's batman. about as logical as cult logic
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@lauralilithliem
I appreciate your compliment, but truthfully, I made quite a few good points throughout. I have no problems in admitting my mistakes, so long as they can be put to me with rational thought out points.
"u strike me as a fanboy./girl with a batman fetish"
I admit I find the Batman story fascinating, but fetishising him? No. I respect the Batman mythology, but I do not revere him. I'm not a fanboy by anyone's stretch of the imagination -i accept his limits.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Whats the similarity between you and this video.....your both a fucking joke the the rest of us. Hahahaha loser.
goodvibesallround 1 month ago
@goodvibesallround
Wow... you really aren't taking this well are you? Way to go for completely losing it in public.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Oh no! where i'am i to hide?! help. Hahahaha you fool. Don't you get it. I don't care what you think.....therefore your stupid fucking opinions don't matter.....don't you see. Talk about thick!
goodvibesallround 1 month ago
@goodvibesallround
Some nihilist you're turning out to be...
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 gotham's simple. poverty, crime and a weak police and government gave room for a mafia. this corrupted an already weak and inept government, or lat least forced them to turn a blind eye, since they lacked the support and manpower.
randomly bruces parents were shot. bruce disappears to figure crfap out
solution - dress like a bat to beat up crooks. because that will fix gotham............ somehow
and like nolan said in the vid, this escalation of force made gotham even worse
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@lauralilithliem
It's a comic legend. It was developed in the late 30s by obstensibly a kid wanting to hang onto the coattails of Superman. Comic narratives are great for escapism; but we expect them to mirrors of our society too, there's nothing wrong in that. But that does not mean they have to be so literal, they're allegories, not instructions to follow to the letter.
Further, I have no problem in believing the "escalation" argument -what's your point?
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 ur an idiot who put way to much stock in this depressing fairytale.
yea i forgot about the no mans land thing - whatever. im talking about if gotham city existed in real life. if there was a town full of violent and colorful sociopaths who controlled a major town (and on several occasions the penguin and two face and others controlled vast swathes of gotham) or simply ran roughshod like frieze (and broke out of jail constantly) national or at least state action would be taken
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@lauralilithliem
"ur an idiot who put way to much stock in this depressing fairytale."
(Sighs). Again with the name calling. You should concentrate on your arguments and not in name calling - using ad hominems doesn't further your points, only well thought out arguments do that.
"ur an idiot who put way to much stock in this depressing fairytale."
And yet you seem to be having an aneurism at the fact that Gotham doesn't follow the vicissitudes of more "real" cities.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
these people have no idea what they're talking about.. the Joker is completely logical how else would he elude everyone so easily? None of the adaptations I've seen suggest he has psychosis. He's a full blown sociopath and the guy 5:27 has it right
LukaszPrzek 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek
Violently aggressive psychopathy, Delusions of grandeur, Fixated narcissism, Sadistic behaviour, Pathological lying, Disregard for human life, Suicide Ideation, Multiple manic mood swings, Superficial charm, Lack of sympathy and lack of empathy and Nihilistic behaviour.
These largely make most of the symptoms of psychopathy. are you seriously trying to tell me you have found this in NONE of the stories of the Joker?
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality, usually including false beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions) and seeing or hearing things that aren't there (hallucinations). Give me one example that suggests any of this in the Joker. He is well aware of what is actually going on he's just evil
LukaszPrzek 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek
Batman Confidential: Madmen and Lovers to name but one.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek
Loss of contact with reality is also manifested through skewed logic, and that's largely manifested through psychotic symptoms I've listed below.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 please give me some examples of skewed logic. Also what you said doesn't really make a connection with psychosis. I haven't read Batman Confidential but I have seen The Dark Knight and read, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, the first two Knightfalls, Arkham Asylum, Haunted Knight, The Killing Joke and I don't recall any of them showing hints of psychosis in the Joker. It would be reductive to the character if he wasn't fully aware of what he was doing. He loves messing with society
LukaszPrzek 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek the killing joke
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek
Well you asked for one example, and I gave it. I admire your back reading on the Dark Knight, but seeing that we're unzipping and letting our chaps flop out to measure whose is bigger, I should say that my knowledge is extensive. Modesty does not permit me to tell you to what extent.
Look at the symptoms I listed below, most of them instigate a loss in logic, and so a loss in reality -the two are closely connected.Eg.you can't have a delusion without losing logic
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 personally i think joker is just aping the crazy cuz he doesnt see the point anymore. its a costume - like batman i guess
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek yea batman broke gotham and he has to stick around to fix it. its like iraq, in that way
and yes, ur right that a mass exodus of a millioned populace city isnt possible. in which case, why is it some random vigilante is the only person doing anything to fix gotham's socioeconomic (and at this point, psychological) problems?
and its not like stalking the nights is his only option. hes a freakin billionaire
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@LukaszPrzek plenty of mass murdering sociopaths eluded cops for months on end. they're still full of crazy
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
What are The Joker's intentions? This History Channel expert really misses the point, his opinions are as vain as Batman.
ObsessiveFetishism 1 month ago
@ObsessiveFetishism hes probly just an angry angry man. what batman would be without morality (or a structured mind)
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
Mental illness has always fascinated me.....I'm a nihilist and proud of it. Fuck the work....i feel nothing anymore.
goodvibesallround 1 month ago
@goodvibesallround
True nihilists do not tend to converge on websites such as YouTube leaving comments; they are usually found committing acts which contravene institutions and the rule of law at best, and throwing their pc out the window and other technological devices at worst...
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 A true nihilist wouldn't give a fuck about your opinion....or anyone else's for that matter.
goodvibesallround 1 month ago
@goodvibesallround
Ditto.
Thank you for supporting my point once more. If you didn't give an f***, you wouldn't be replying to me would you?
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Well...I think in your case i'll make an exception. You seem like a special type of moron....
goodvibesallround 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 thats an anarchist. get ur definitions right
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@lauralilithliem
Philosophical Anarchism is one who believes the alternative is a better way of living.
Philosophical Nihilism believes that any alternative is meaningless.
Read up on the definitions before bothering to rant.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@goodvibesallround lol crazy girls are a hell of a lot of fun. u just have to keep them away from sharp n knives (or in my case, igve it to them in abundance)
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@NIETZSCHEAN14 mate, theres a camp in Aushwitz with Gas chambers. I think thats proof enough. And why is there so much anti-sematism throughout history? Jews have done nothing to provoke this kinda hate. Christians had crusades, Muslims have terrorists attacks, but Jews did nothing at all!
Mezworld 1 month ago
@Mezworld theyve been rich. thats enough to cause hatred from the poor and ignorant
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
"holocaust surviver" (lol). The Jews who control the mass-media always have to get their sacred cash-cow mentioned int there somewhere. There is no proof that the Germans gassed any Jews. The Jews that were in the camps deserved to be there, because they were judged to be a danger to the German nation. Any nation, with a sense of self-preservation, would do the same thing. The bullshit about "The Holocaust" has been thoroughly debunked by the "Holocaust" revisionists. Go to CODOHCOM.
NIETZSCHEAN14 2 months ago
@NIETZSCHEAN14 You make me ashamed to be human.
xXTianaXx 1 month ago
@xXTianaXx. Suicide is always an option (lol) :o)
NIETZSCHEAN14 1 month ago
@NIETZSCHEAN14 I know it is. Do you?
xXTianaXx 1 month ago
@xXTianaXx sending the jewish mob is a better idea
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@NIETZSCHEAN14 troll
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@lauralilithliem. Marmalade.
NIETZSCHEAN14 1 month ago
I think the commentors here suggesting that Joker is a genius aren't wrong- but I don't understand why they're basically reiterating what was already said in the video. Joker believes that the joke is Batman's life- and while he could explain it he chooses to keep the joke to himself. And only a smart guy keeps it to himself, ergo why someone like the Riddler could never truly be smarter than Batman.
Crashortsofevil 2 months ago
@Crashortsofevil hes a tactical genius, but thats about it
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@Crashortsofevil the jokers a satarist with a terrible, terrible sense of humour
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
JOKER is a genius who realises that society enslaves the beings and his action simply show that society is an big fat joke our morals principles rules desires governments borders emotional attachments(family and friends) and every single crap that forms our society and that keep you from being yourself and it is society that creates "serial killers" and "criminals" and when you are free from the shackles of society you'll realise that the whole idea of society is hillarious you laugh non stop
corduran 2 months ago 4
@corduran
That's more or less the point being made in the video from 5:38 onwards.
As for society creating serial killers and criminals that's ridiculous. Genetics plays a factor.
Mogwai786 2 months ago
@Mogwai786 ......... genetics only lead to predispositions. society is what causes psychopaths.
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@lauralilithliem
No, and I'll make this really quick for you.
Monoamine oxidase A. Aka 'the Warrior Gene'
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 I called you a moron because you claim to know me based solely on 2 comments and my Youtube page. I'm in awe of your arrogance, stupidity and pure ignorance on the matter! It's moron's (key word) like you that base everything on stereotypes rather than asking direct questions.....Do the world a favor and kiss a .38.
goodvibesallround 1 month ago
Comment removed
Mogwai786 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@goodvibesallround
I'm always fascinated that I find more nihilists on online forums than in real life.
True philosophical nihilists would NEVER go onto a website like this and exclaim something as bizarre as "I'm a nihilist and proud of it....I feel nothing". Simply, they would never feel pride, and they would never feel any sensation to tell anyone about it. And if you don't feel anything, then that is just utterly ridiculous (smirk).
You sir, are a fraud.
Mogwai786 1 month ago
@corduran
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@corduran thats the modern interpretation. hes probly the only person in the dc universe who realizes how messed up their world is. but him aping a crazy person hardly counts as a useful solution
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@corduran and the joker has no interest in social change. so dont bother with that argument, it has no legs
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@corduran ok............. pretend the joker is a real person. like charles manson.
I really doubt ud be lapping such praise on this deluded fool if he was in ur town
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
Joker is a Nihilist and is the most sane one of the two.
TheRacketBoss 2 months ago
cool DOCU BUT MANY Mistakes...Joker was intro in 1939 not 1940...He went nuts cos he lost wife n baby. He was a chemist that wanted to be a comedian but he sucked at stand up that why when he had not nothing left w/ his immediate family death he went nutz.
Now he makes the world laugh at his expense. N despite his crazyness he a genius cos it well known all genius are a lil' insane.
These guys also failed mentioned Joker has a MAN CRUSH on Batman. Hates him but can NOT kill him.
265308 3 months ago
@265308
That kid wanted to kill Reagan. LOL he was brainwashed assasin cos the NWO wanted to sent a message to REAGAN. Pls man no one gets that close range to take a shot at pres unless THE powers that be allow it.
265308 3 months ago
@265308
at almost 4 mins."not about money." Man i loved Ledgers version but peo got get that idea out of there heads THE JOKER IS ABOUT money cos money = power. Peo assume cos chris nolan;s version was not about money.... that all bible of the joker. Newsflash the joker loves MONEY!
265308 3 months ago
@265308 troll
lauralilithliem 1 month ago
@Mogwai786 Why is it that you post on youtube but have no video content posted? Why do you give a shit about if I pontificate on how screwed up batman is?
911jbg 3 months ago
@911jbg
Looks like you don't want to answer my questions.
I did not realise having questions answered was contingent on having content uploaded -that YouTube rule must have slipped by me and others.
I may comment on YouTube for reasons similar to your own, and hundreds of millions of others. You must at least expect to encounter some queries when you make such a bizarre statement about Batman.
You have committed the Red Herring Fallacy, and attempted to focus on issues of irrelevance.
Mogwai786 3 months ago
BURT: Well because only now is the story complete. When I entered BATMAN as a naive 20-year-old who had only dated a couple of girls, I met Adam West, who immediately introduced me to the wildest sexual debauchery that you can imagine. Within a few months we were like two hungry sharks in a world of unlimited halibut. (laughter). Maybe I'm a little too harsh on Adam. Actually, to be more descriptive, he was more like a killer whale in a world of plankton. Together we had this wild time.
911jbg 3 months ago
@911jbg
Another question. Why did you pluck out a transcript of Burt Ward talking about his time with Adam West with vague sexual references (didn't you say "sexual PROBLEMS" -I don't see any in the transcript) as proof that BATMAN has "severe sexual problems". You do know that one of them is fictional.
Mogwai786 3 months ago
The joker is a psycho-sociopath nihilist who enjoys his share of anarchy but batman is a privileged vigilante and has severe sexuality problems. I forget if there was ever a Che Guevara/Robin Hood archetype criminal in Gotham but that would be interesting or maybe a moreFrench revolutionary figure to upset the Gotham status quo.
911jbg 3 months ago
@911jbg
? Can you elucidate as to why he has "severe sexuality problems" ?
Mogwai786 3 months ago
Batman knows hes not pure. does anyone ever know if their actions are ever compleatly pure. no. right & wrong. good & evil. their friends for real. in some peoples heads their not.so thats their reality. their ill. so this is a film about a schitzopheren person in a battle with him or herself. positiv & negativ needs to work together. not fight one another.there is no innocense.and there is innocense.
niflymoth 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
And this is what the Catholic Church has been saying for 2000 years.
LVCIVSTVLLIVSATELLVS 4 months ago
Joker's character was created way back in the day when our understanding of mental disorders was vastly different... and incomplete. Trying to figure out or "diagnose" joker is ridiculous. He has traits of psychopathy, schizophrenia, and antisocial personality disorder, but there is more to it than this. He was made as an image of a person's idea of someone who is "insane" or a "lunatic". However, neither insane nor lunatic are medical terms. They do not describe any real mental disorders.
Emaniac69 5 months ago
At 1:50 and a little bit onward, what does that guy say about the Joker?
I can't make out what he is saying when the picture flashes and he says something.
UncomfortableSilence 5 months ago
@UncomfortableSilence "the joker says, I'm as nutty as a squirrel and im proud of that"
ryanh4256 4 months ago
@ryanh4256 Thanks.
UncomfortableSilence 4 months ago
What's the documentary called?
TerraceArchimedes 5 months ago
ok guys I need you to say rate my Joker, Im going to make the batman movie... so my joker is going to be my joker
He will not have scars( like heaths) and he will Not fall in to acid ( JAcks,Marks,) but he will wear make up / that way he is more sick) and will be dressed in torn straitjacket and a hat. He will be crime junky... I will not reaveal enything about his history but only one small thingy :D
PLS TELL ME IF THIS IS A GOOD JOKER
Smilinginmygrave 5 months ago
Anyone who thinks the Joker is crazy/psychotic/lunatic just does not get the Joke.
coalhalo 6 months ago 2
Noam Chomsky is a type of anarchist and whatever you think of him he is not in favor of murdering people. There are different types of anarchist. Just pointing that out.
The Joker is a psychotic, nihilistic douche-bag. Great performance by Ledger. :-( bummer
S2Cents 6 months ago
@SentinelConvergence this is where i'd punch you in the face.
xtobello 6 months ago
Chaos and evil are not the same thing.
coven101 6 months ago
@coven101 yeap but evil men do chaos
Smilinginmygrave 6 months ago
@Smilinginmygrave yeah i agree, but even evil men can do good things, i think theres light and darkness in us all.
coven101 6 months ago
@coven101 The unconscious is elusive and mysterious territory. No one knows their true depths. No matter how much digging you do.
Neuromance27 5 months ago
@Neuromance27 Thats profound and poetic, I like the way you think.
coven101 5 months ago
@Neuromance27
I dont think you can say that "no matter how much....." until youve started digging. so start diggin & continue to dig.
niflymoth 3 months ago
Hes an agent of chaos, he says it himself in the movie.
coven101 6 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Heath Ledger sucked as the joker, just because he died of a overdose doesn't mean he's a acting god.
dysvanlist 6 months ago
Anarchism and nihilism.....mutually exclusive.......why?
rudegar20 6 months ago
Sometimes a mind can tolerate only so much injustice that it must become WORSE than what attacks it in order to survive. Society IS the joke and the Joker IS the punchline.
mindstormsabrewin 7 months ago
"now, when someone says your life is a joke.."
i punch them. i punch. them. in. the. face.
xtobello 8 months ago
@xtobello My initial thought is:
"Perhaps. But it's MY joke."
SentinelConvergence 6 months ago
They cheapen it and miss it by calling it a mental illness and comparing him to delusional lunatics... he knows exactly what he's doing, is intelligent and understands himself. He just has... a different world view then most
Ryakki 8 months ago 32
@Ryakki I feel what your saying. The joker knows exactly what hes doing. My life has become that way.
gravekeepersven 8 months ago
Mogwai786 3 months ago
@Ryakki
Your comment creates a false dichotomy; that having a mental illness is mutually exclusive from knowing exactly what you do/intelligence/understands yourself. You can have someone who has a mental illness and yet IS intelligent, KNOWS what he's doing, and UNDERSTANDS himself. The point is whether it is GROUNDED in reality. Eg. Joker understands himself so well, he would like Gothamites to have a toxic grin like him (because he thinks it would be a better place). His logic is the issue
Mogwai786 3 months ago
@Mogwai786
Does an unpopular opinion make you crazy?
He makes no appeal to the supernatural of any kind. He sees reality quite clearly.
Ryakki 3 months ago
@Ryakki
I'm not sure I understand your first point. Of course being unpopular doesn't make you crazy, but I'm not sure where I endorsed that notion, or its relevance to this point.
Appealing to the supernatural is not integral to being psychotic. In other words, believing in the supernatural is not a sufficient or necessary condition to having a psychosis. If it were the case, then the absurdity would be that atheists would never have a predilection towards psychosis.
Mogwai786 3 months ago
@Mogwai786
You said yourself he thinks Gotham would be a better place if everyone embraced chaos as he does, and apparently this is his psychosis.
He may be anti-social, and have a warped moral compass, but at the very least... I wouldn't call him delusional.
Ryakki 3 months ago
@Ryakki
Again, I don't understand what you meant by inferring someone is crazy from unpopularity. Can you put your comments in context to what preceded them, so we can have a clear thread of thought through the different posts instead of one line replies please?
Your first point,I did say that he wants everyone to experience what he did (toxic grin for example, or they themselves feeling pain),and this action reflects a multitude of symptoms to psychosis I mentioned earlier.That's my point
Mogwai786 3 months ago
@Ryakki
To your second point.
He is delusional, BECAUSE of his failed logic, and his warped sense of morality.
What makes him psychotic is not just that he wants to kill and maim lots of people in itself, but that by doing so he THINKS the world would be a better place ( eg. he will fit in better as everyone else will have a toxic grin or madness is freedom, or life is not sacred but death is freedom)
It is his lack of logic (and therefore his loss on reality) that makes him psychotic.
Mogwai786 3 months ago
@Mogwai786
At least in The Dark Knight, he never makes any of the claims you do, that he's making the world a better place (perhaps a more honest place), or that he wants to fit in.
You're imposing a lot of assumptions on him.
Ryakki 3 months ago
@Ryakki
The Joker I'm referring to is the Joker of the source. There are different Jokers, & the different reasons I give why Joker may wish to change the world reflect that.
Look at the TDK Joker; he possesses many of the symptoms I mentioned earlier -I can go through them again if you want?
The key to the delusion of the Joker (any Joker) is the absence of, or flawed, logic -which shows a defect reality ie. he wants Gotham to be in anarchy because he THINKS it would be better (& honest).
Mogwai786 3 months ago
@Mogwai786
Well, flawed logic and wanting other people to live how you think they should doesn't make someone crazy. If it did, we'd have sanitariums in place of churches. In fact TDK joker sees reality far clearer and more realistically than a religious person. I think if you want to classify him as crazy for those things, you'd have to diagnose most of the world.
Not that I'd disagree with you if you did, but just saying, in those things he's less crazy than most.
The sociopathic... yes
Ryakki 3 months ago
@Ryakki
"flawed logic ... doesn't make someone crazy"
Of course not. But re-read what I said about it being grounded with a PSYCHOTIC symptom (see the list).
Sometimes, flawed logic ALONE doesn't make you crazy (eg. I'm better than everyone). And exhibiting one of the psychotic symptoms ALONE doesn't make you psychotic either (eg. delusions of grandeur). But BOTH together probably do (eg. delusions of grandeur because everyone else is less human (made of cheese) or I am more than human).
Mogwai786 3 months ago 4
@Mogwai786 actually i think the proof thats hes crazy is that he thinks he can make people laugh by being a mass murdering psychopath
lauralilithliem 1 month ago