I am plodding my way through Pimsleur's Thai and I have to agree, it is no fun for me either. I abhor repetition and Pimsleur has no peer in that regard. So what to do? I will continue with Pimsleur but also allow my curiosity to take me to whatever Thai book, cd, etc that suits my fancy and not worry about my lack of progress with Pimsleur. What says you Lingosteve?
I personally really like the Pimsleur learning series. It provides you with a good base to start off learning the language so you know how to construct sentences and the like. After I finish these courses I can then proceed to learn other vocab which I can easy slot into sentences. I'm doing Japanese and think it's great!
I had the experience with Pimsleur Turkish. No use for the time invested. Google Translator + chat on Livemocha were much more benificial, than this stuff.
steve, me encanta como siempre fomentas tu pagina (Lingq)para ganar dinero...puta.
i love how you always promote your website to make money...bitch. Quizas queremos que nos recomiendes un website que no es terrible y la que no te gana dinero.
@lingosteve your response had nothing to do with my comment so im guessing your spanish isn't at a very high level...I'm asking why you always promote LingQ, literally every video you say it and anyone who writes in the comments asking for help/suggestions your response is always, "In my opinion, LingQ is the best way to learn a language" therefore your always promoting yourself to make money. I didn't use LingQ and I'm a C2 in english, spanish (native language), and french. And a B2 in german.
@NickC5000 You have watched enough of my videos to notice that I often mention LingQ. Is this an accident or I want to promote LingQ. Which do you think it is?
If you search for lingosteve on youtube you will find a video about LingQ? Why? Guess!
In the future I will do even more explicit videos promoting LingQ. If you don't like it why watch my videos?
I hope my language learning experience interests others. My way of learning is the LingQ way. There are many other ways.
"Sixpackabs" continuously promotes their website via their videos to make money. They've been suspended multiple times for doing so. They are suspended right now, in fact.
Yet you favorite them and then come here to bellyache?
It is intersting to see different educational needs displayed. It is tedious to me to start out by reading news items like that. I needed to start of slow. Pimsleur was time consuming, but I did it in the car, so it would have been wasted time anyway! I'm not sure if I would have felt the same way had I bought it, but I got 45 hours of CDs from the library for free!! It gave me a solid grounding in Japanese. I totally agree with you on one point though, Pimsleur is very light on vocab.
Is this really have to be expensive or there are other ways to do learn a new language? My goal is to get to an advanced level , I use youtube sources all other free sources on the internet, but I feel that it is still not enough to reach my goal . All the books I got still at the beginners’ level.
@Babybluebird1 Stop buying books. You only a few basic books to get you started and to learn the characters.Now get on LingQ and learn from all the content that is on the Internet.
@lingosteve Thank you Professor , I just checked the web. you recommended : lingQ, it seems to be an interesting one. Just created an account there:-) Thanks a lot.
I have already started my Chinese lessons for about 2-3 weeks and see progress,I already invested in books of more than 500dollars , I still think those books will not be enough to even get close to intermediate level. I did a careful research before buying each of book or software , I like them all, however I still I think it is outrageously expensive to learn a language.
@mindstate30 That was actually close to MY point. You learn the basics and then you USE it. He was implying that you can't or shouldn't learn basics. We would agree on Pimsleur, because I don't think Pimsleur actually teaches you basics. It's like taking a phrasebook into a foreign country and thinking you can speak the language. Plus, any audio-only type of program is pointless, because, like he says, you cannot expand on vocabulary independently if you are illiterate.
There is definitely truth to what he says. I was at the library yesterday searching for Chinese books. There was a book entitled "Ta De Guo"(it was in all Chinese characters though). I put two and two together and figured out that De must turn the character for "He(Ta)" into the possessive "His". Guo means country. So I figured that the title said "His Country". I've never cracked open a book explaining Mandarin Grammar. I just read and listen everyday.
@Taricus It IS impossible to master the basics of any language. You can master a DIALECT of a language. English has many dialects(Northern, Southern, British) , Chinese has a TON of dialects that are pretty much unintelligible between each dialect. People in Beijing speak differently than in Shanghai. British English is FAR different from American English. There are still Americans who violate basic English grammar rules and for all practical purposes, they are considered fluent in the language
I totally get your critique. Pimsleur is time consuming, and you are forced to learn what someone else has felt is important to learn. Pimsleur is also quite expensive if you buy their 30 CD course. I have tried my luck with its course in german, and it is a fine course. But I would not want to try for example russian or hindi, because reading gets more difficult and it is not enough to just listen and repeat the words on the list that follows the course. What do I get out from hearing D35#jf9 ?
I find Pimsleurs helpful for wetting my feet in CERTAIN languages. Just listening to a few lessons to get a feel for the phonetics and i'll figure out what I need to supplement it with if I were to continue. I will definitely agree that you won't be anywhere near fluent, but it's good for beginners who want a convenient and easy way to get some basic conversational training in a new language. It can quickly give you confidence to go up to talk to people not long after you pick up a few things.
Like Steve says, my method of studying Chinese has been passive at best. I read, listen and digest a lot of basic...limited content. I listen to Chinese music even though I don't understand it..it helps me get used to hearing native speakers and aids in visualizing and processing pinyin tones faster. When I listen, I close my eyes and visualize everything in my head. When I read, I look up words in the dictionary that I don't know. I study about 1 hour a day and it seems to work very well.
You make a great point Steve, I think what's appealing about Pimsleur is exactly what you criticized... The "bark now" now I am "learning". It has a decent amount of instant gratification to where it can appeal to alot of people. Included in the alot of people are those less inclined to critically examine how "organically"? They learn language. Regardless I do think Pimsleur a very good way to show beginning language learners that learning can be fun and easy.
@Taricus I think the point he is trying to make is that you should just dive into reading new articles that interest you or listen to foriegn music. The human mind has a way of detecting patterns after a while and simple things such as grammar and sentence structure will fall into place. It's the way children learn their native languages speak..by listening to their parents. That's why they advise you to READ to your children. Programs like Pimsleur limit your vocabulary growth.
My idea of basics are just the line where you know faire and such.... The ones that are important... or knowing how to say "me" or "I" properly... You don't want to be the guy who goes, "Moi veux blah blah blah...." You should know it's "je". Otherwise, you just sound like a caveman :P
@lingosteve I'm talking about the basics that let you take advantage of listening and reading, because you recognize the common patterns. I can run across a new word and have a pretty good idea of what it means, but it's because I know the common patterns. It's the same way that you learn to drive a car... You learn how first. You don't get a license by watching mommy and daddy doing it, you earn it thru practice and knowing the basics and then doing it--otherwise you mess up.
@Taricus Is it so difficult for you to understand that I do not believe you can master the "basics"? For me, I just keep on learning and gradually different bits of how the language works fall into place. You have a different perspective. Good for you. You are not going to convince me. I have a lot of experience learning languages.
@lingosteve I have a lot of experience learning languages too and I'm very sorry that you will never ever approach a "basic" level of comprehension.... :P I was able to do it in many languages and can now speak many. Obviously, the only thing I find difficult to understand is why you think you have a lot of "experience" learning languages, if you want to say that no one can learn the 'basics'....
@lingosteve I find it rediculous that you stand on pretentious podium and say it's impossible, yet flaunt your expertise in the subject matter. I, at first, liked your videos; until you told me off and acted like it was impossible to achieve the lowest of aspirations. I've been learning languages since 4th grade; I'm now 32 years old and study international relations and travel around the world with no problems in communicating in my 5 target languages. Some took longer than others, but it's
@lingosteve Not impossible, and I can't conceive of a "teacher" who could put people down who listen to him saying that it isn't even possible to achieve a basic level, while he spouts off about levels of fluency. I even have a full scholarship to go to China and study in Hangzhou, because of my successes in the language--likely because they were impressed by my BASIC ability to speak the language. Honestly, read some Chomsky. We are genetically predisposed to learn languages as a species.
@lingosteve Your mindset is very American. It is impossible to NOT be able to learn language. I am surrounded constantly with people who can successfully speak in multiple languages. I know Army interpreters and have professors from other countries who have no qualms with speaking English with me. I have friends from when I lived in Italy that can understand me fully when I speak English. Many people in the world learn the basics just fine. You're just shutting others down.
@lingosteve The basics are fairly easy to learn... It's mostly getting a feeling for the flow of a language, and then you delve into the hard stuff... If you work at it, you can achieve basic level in about.. oh, I dunno, for me, about 4-6 months.... Then you delve into the hard stuff, but keep companion objects like books and movies to accelerate you while you decipher the news (where people talk at a million miles an hour lol)
@lingosteve I think we had a miscommunication. When I say basics, I mean that as long as you know the regular verb forms and such (if the language conjugates) and sentence structure, then you're set to play on FaceBook apps and go on websites to try to learn what you can, because it's recognizable or at least decipherable. I don't mean you should keep your nose in a grammar book for years, because you won't learn the REAL language that REAL people use that way.
Wait... continue in argument other we languages this prefer if you! (I didn't learn the basics of English first, but at least I got the words right! :P )
@lingosteve LOL! You know I'm just messin' with you right?! :P I actually adore your vids... I think we just have a different idea of what "basics" are, like many people debate over what "fluent" is....
@lingosteve If you hold the same value system as me on what is basic, I really have to just shake my head at you for thinking people aren't capable of achieving something so easy.... Basics are easy... they just take time and then you explode outward in your learning experience... They're like tiny hurdles that everyone has to overcome to be successful... I can't imagine why you would say basics aren't important and then turn on Pimsleur in the same sentence, because Pimsleur says you don't
Aw... he's ignoring me now! LOL! I have valid input! I speak 5 languages and somehow I'm classified as the idiot who doesn't know anything! How did that happen?! LOL!
@EscapeMonotony No I was unable to continue with Pimsleur because I did not like listening to the English and having to speak when prompted. I only do what I like to do, and what I find interesting when it comes to language learning.
@lingosteve That's cool. However, I believe if the course were given a chance you'd see that it uses limited vocabulary (of common words) in order to help you recognize the disparity between verb tenses and sentence construction that will later aid you when you add to your arsenal of vocabulary.
This just seemed to me like an evaluation of a Maserati without ever having gone beyond 20 MPH.
Thanks nonetheless. I always look forward to hearing your opinions on language learning.
and of course you can learn basics.... :P Kids do it all the time! The only difference is how much you can be around the target language. The more native it is the better!
@lingosteve but you kind of HAVE to... You minimize it in that direction, but you NEED to know what sounds natural before you throw yourself at it, or you end up with a sentence that sounds jumbled. We don't all have the benefit of being around native speakers 24/7. Those basics are important to learn how it flows, then you take all the bits and pieces you encounter and include them.
@Taricus If you don't agree, why do you even have those books to begin with? You were learning the basics of how the language falls together, otherwise you'd just walk out your front door and start speaking Russian "organically"
@voodoochills, and a the problem with these audio course books is that many of the scenarios in the course will never happen to you in real life. My whole day will not be revolved around me ordering coffee in the cafe, buying a train ticket, or asking a sales person how much will a purse cost. I rather listen to news radio in my target language, because I need to hear all kinds of vocabulary and news/current event topics that I can use in actual every day dealings with people. Real life stuff.
That lack of confidence of not being sure of what we heard turns in being not confident on how to respond, because while you are trying to reply back, you are still focused on the uncertainty of what had been said to you. In my experience of learning languages and watching people do so as well, is that lots of people are inadequate in knowing how to listen in their target language, not the actual talking part. And one doesn't need to buy expensive learning tools in order to listen.
@voodoochills, I want to say lastly is what made most of us fail to learn a language the first time around is the lack of listening in the target language, not the inability to respond and speak right away. Matter of fact, I believe that one can't speak/respond to another human being at all unless they know how to listen in the L2 language in the first place. Lack of response is due to us not being confident. We are not confident, because we are not sure what was being said to us from the start.
Oh, yeah those "________ in 10 Minutes A Day" books lie about spending 10 minutes to learn. Who can learn in 10 minutes a day? Some of the material they give you, takes about 1 or 2 hours to learn. These marketing ploys of lying how quickly you can learn targets impatient people to learn a language, but in reality these people will feel very disappointed when they can't learn as fast as the material claim, then they will feel as if there is something wrong with their intellect for not learning.
Worst than Pimsleur is the "______ in 10 minutes a day", I got this in Japanese and German and talk about constant stupid exercises and games and mixing the L2 language with English, for instance, "I have 'ichi' (one) book. But Sazuki-san has 'ju-ni' more books than me." "What time does the 'rensha' (train) comes? 'Watashi' needs to know, because 'Watashi (I) don't want to be late for work." Just pure stupidity. I wasted $20 TWICE on this mess. Who can learn this way?!
I agree with your comments on the shady marketing practices of some of the big companies, Teach Yourself in particular.
In Europe the B1 level, lower intermediate, requires a working vocabulary of around 2,000 to 3,000 words depending on the language being learnt. Teach Yourself books usually contain around 1,000 to 1,300 words (some languages have even less) which is somewhere between A1 and A2 - beginner levels. Yet they market the books as teaching to intermediate levels.
OMG! THANK YOU! ^_^ I also hate Rosetta Stone for a similar reason! That russian book also sucks, cuz I had that one before and I sold it back to the store! Their Italian one was decent, but the Russian one was horrible! It didn't give you any meat of the language, it treated you like, "If I repeat the same phrases enuff time, you'll be able to recognize every phrase that I taught you!", but you couldn't talk..... The point is to just feel the language and most programs don't help that.
I was reading about Pimsleur but it isn't a good method for learning languages I prefer LingQ it isn't faster but is more effective LingQ has many real dialogues where you can improve your skills but in real time not as false says learning programs they promise to teach you in 10 days in my opinion it is imposible maybe we could learn some words, some phrases, improve our listening, what the others skills what? I wish I had a magic box to learn the languages I want. The secret is study everyday
I don't see how you would spend as much as 100h on Pimsleur (let alone "hundreds of hours"). Unless you do so much repeated listening that you on average listen to the whole thing more than twice (which might be the case), because a three part course it's 45h long (30min * 30 episodes * 3 parts).
hello mr, you are right about this topic, i'm learning norwegian language, and i must say the pimsleur program really dont't like at all, now i've been using teach yourself and it's quite fine plus LingQ.com (very very good resource by the way), but i've one issue about learning the norwegian program at LingQ sometimes when i want to see lessons or download them, it's (freezes or hangs up,etc) Mr Steve, can be this possible due to this norwegian program at lingQ is a beta version on the website?
Is there any likelihood of lingq allowing imports from unsupported languages any time soon? I don't understand the programming in the background, but just being able to import dialogues from estonian or another unsupported language and mark them would be a really nice feature.
And weren't the dictionaries for the Beta languages fairly simplistic at the beginning..I don't know, just really like the site and can't use it for Estonian haha
Steve, with regard to using books and courses for starting a language, do you always complete all the dialogues in the book? I tend to find myself using an Assimil or TY course for getting started, but I burn out about half-way into the book, even skipping the exercises.. Did you try to finish such books yourself when you started Russian or Czech?
@qzchris I started Russian before we had it at LingQ and used what I could find. I tended to finish what I started with a few exceptions. Assimil is one that that I quickly got tired of. With Czech I rely mostly on beginner content created by LingQ members and now online newspapers and radio programs with transcripts and some audio books for which I have the text.
steve, i find it extraordinary that your views on language learning coincides exactly with my own experience and my theory of what works when it comes to learning languages. Actively accepting vs passively taking in is the highlight of this video.
When I was learning Japanese, I used Pimsleur. However I quickly outgrew it as I was also using a text book to teach myself. It was only after I finished Heisig's RTK1 and started reading more that my learning excelled dramatically. You're right that it doesn't build a very big vocabulary. It does teach overly polite forms of speech. And yet, I could recite the phrases perfectly. Though you can do that yourself with a book and an SRS like Focus, Surusu, or Anki. A better bang for the buck.
Obviously you can´t become fluent in a language just by using alone, but it will help you to speak right away and if I remember correctly you even said in one of your videos that speaking right off the bat and practicing is very important, regardless if your grammar is incorrect, Pimsleur helps you do this -or at least it did for me.
Sorry, I just don´t really get why you made this video, if you don´t like it then don´t use it, I don´t see a reason to point out negative points about the program.
@voodoochills No I do not think speaking right away is important. If that is what you want to do, then fine, but I tend not to do so. See my recent efforts over the last 10 years with Cantonese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian and Czech. At my channel I mostly talk about how I study languages. Some may find my experience useful, others may not. That is why I made this and other videos.
@lingosteve Well I seem to recall you making a video quite a while back talking about not worrying if you´re speaking with incorrect grammar when just starting out, and just to speak with what you know, the rest will come after. If I´m incorrect then, sorry.
@voodoochills No I do not remember saying that we should speak early. I have always said that we should speak when we want to and feel confident. And whenever that is, and that point will vary for different people, we should just speak and not worry about making mistakes.
@voodoochills, I think one can speak immediately in one's target language by just listening to radio stations in the L2 language. I have been doing this for 2 weeks with French where I couldn't understand a word the French talk show host was saying, but after 2 weeks I can get the gist of the conversation. All you need to do is talk to yourself, as insane as it sounds, using the vocabulary you currently know. It is really easy. Just describe what happened during that day and talk about....
@voodoochills, I think one can speak immediately in one's target language by just listening to radio stations in the L2 language. I have been doing this for 2 weeks with French where I couldn't understand a word the French talk show host was saying, but after 2 weeks I can get the gist of the conversation. All you need to do is talk to yourself, as insane as it sounds, using the vocabulary you currently know. It is really easy. Just describe what happened during that day and talk about....
I know what you mean and I agree with you there. I still do that often, try to speak with myself at times when I have no one else to practice with haha.
@voodoochills, in your target language as if you are writing in a diary/personal journal. Once you do that a lot, thinking then talking in the language happens very quickly. No need for Pimsleur, I guess. Once you can talk to yourself more fluently, then you can talk to others, because conversation is all about saying and making a sentence as soon as you get the though and that is why talking to yourself is beneficial and an inexpensive activity to do. Because those audio CDs cost lots of money.
I agree they are very expensive audio CDs, and I would probably never buy them.(But torrents are your friend ;-) ). Otherwise, like you said as well theres also plenty of free resources on the net.
Also, Pimsleur is not meant to give you a dictionary of vocabulary, its meant to get you speaking right away - which it does. Once you start speaking, you can talk with people and they can help you along and explain to you more things/words, plus help build your vocabulary. But again I think it depends on who you are and how you learn (like yourself...).
@voodoochills I do not find that just speaking to people about simple things helps me to build vocabulary. if I have a small vocabulary I cannot say much and I cannot understand much of what is said. I prefer to reply on my input activities.
Like you said, on YOUR experience. For some people - yes they will master the subjunctive just from that book or exercise book whatever, it all depends on who you are.
@lingosteve vocabulary is fine and dandy, but you honestly have to get many books to have a good vocab. A lot of my language books are books from games and such. I can talk about dragons and magic all day long, but if you delve into real estate, I start losing contact. A good approach that I found to fix that is to take books from a lot of different sources and read them. vocab is tricky, because if you overfocus on a certain area, you become limited to that subject.
@Taricus When you become comfortable with the basics, you should spread out so that you get a good mix of influences. Even grammar can change between different types of books and subjects :P but having the basics opens the door for you.. Every book could possibly turn into a nightmare of using the dictionary over and over, but by the end, you don't have to look things up very much, because you start absorbing the new content.
@Taricus I don't believe that we become "comfortable with the basics" and then move on. Some of the " basics" take a long time to sink in. We need lost of exposure and gradually the fog lifts.
I am plodding my way through Pimsleur's Thai and I have to agree, it is no fun for me either. I abhor repetition and Pimsleur has no peer in that regard. So what to do? I will continue with Pimsleur but also allow my curiosity to take me to whatever Thai book, cd, etc that suits my fancy and not worry about my lack of progress with Pimsleur. What says you Lingosteve?
takforalt 2 weeks ago
I personally really like the Pimsleur learning series. It provides you with a good base to start off learning the language so you know how to construct sentences and the like. After I finish these courses I can then proceed to learn other vocab which I can easy slot into sentences. I'm doing Japanese and think it's great!
MelonsAreHere 1 month ago
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I had the experience with Pimsleur Turkish. No use for the time invested. Google Translator + chat on Livemocha were much more benificial, than this stuff.
Bogrome 1 month ago
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Bogrome 1 month ago
steve, me encanta como siempre fomentas tu pagina (Lingq)para ganar dinero...puta.
i love how you always promote your website to make money...bitch. Quizas queremos que nos recomiendes un website que no es terrible y la que no te gana dinero.
NickC5000 1 month ago
@NickC5000 Si no te gustan mis videos porque mirarlos?
lingosteve 1 month ago 2
@lingosteve your response had nothing to do with my comment so im guessing your spanish isn't at a very high level...I'm asking why you always promote LingQ, literally every video you say it and anyone who writes in the comments asking for help/suggestions your response is always, "In my opinion, LingQ is the best way to learn a language" therefore your always promoting yourself to make money. I didn't use LingQ and I'm a C2 in english, spanish (native language), and french. And a B2 in german.
NickC5000 1 month ago
@NickC5000 You have watched enough of my videos to notice that I often mention LingQ. Is this an accident or I want to promote LingQ. Which do you think it is?
If you search for lingosteve on youtube you will find a video about LingQ? Why? Guess!
In the future I will do even more explicit videos promoting LingQ. If you don't like it why watch my videos?
I hope my language learning experience interests others. My way of learning is the LingQ way. There are many other ways.
lingosteve 1 month ago 2
@NickC5000 Vai caça sapo, vai, santa falta do que fazer
Xantonium 1 month ago
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belaghoulashi 1 month ago
@NickC5000 What are you complaining about?
"Sixpackabs" continuously promotes their website via their videos to make money. They've been suspended multiple times for doing so. They are suspended right now, in fact.
Yet you favorite them and then come here to bellyache?
That smells funny. What's up with that?
belaghoulashi 1 month ago
@belaghoulashi i like them because the actually give out good workouts, get off your 300 pound fat-ass and stop eating that mcdonalds faggot.
NickC5000 1 month ago
@NickC5000
You're hallucinating.
Fresh air might help.
belaghoulashi 1 month ago
@NickC5000 Entiende este ..... vete a la mierda ... hijo de puta. Va y chupale las tetas de tu madre.
ElBurroSabeMasQueYo 1 month ago
It is intersting to see different educational needs displayed. It is tedious to me to start out by reading news items like that. I needed to start of slow. Pimsleur was time consuming, but I did it in the car, so it would have been wasted time anyway! I'm not sure if I would have felt the same way had I bought it, but I got 45 hours of CDs from the library for free!! It gave me a solid grounding in Japanese. I totally agree with you on one point though, Pimsleur is very light on vocab.
ksacha77 1 month ago
@zzukizzz agreed. Everyone is free to express their views, and share their experience here./
lingosteve 1 month ago
3000 dollars?
Babybluebird1 1 month ago
Is this really have to be expensive or there are other ways to do learn a new language? My goal is to get to an advanced level , I use youtube sources all other free sources on the internet, but I feel that it is still not enough to reach my goal . All the books I got still at the beginners’ level.
Babybluebird1 1 month ago
@Babybluebird1 Stop buying books. You only a few basic books to get you started and to learn the characters.Now get on LingQ and learn from all the content that is on the Internet.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve Thank you Professor , I just checked the web. you recommended : lingQ, it seems to be an interesting one. Just created an account there:-) Thanks a lot.
Babybluebird1 1 month ago
@Babybluebird1 Good luck. If you have any questions I suggest you post on the forum there.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve Thank you:-)))
Babybluebird1 1 month ago
I have already started my Chinese lessons for about 2-3 weeks and see progress,I already invested in books of more than 500dollars , I still think those books will not be enough to even get close to intermediate level. I did a careful research before buying each of book or software , I like them all, however I still I think it is outrageously expensive to learn a language.
Babybluebird1 1 month ago
Nice Glasses Steve.
PabloFrozen 1 month ago
@mindstate30 That was actually close to MY point. You learn the basics and then you USE it. He was implying that you can't or shouldn't learn basics. We would agree on Pimsleur, because I don't think Pimsleur actually teaches you basics. It's like taking a phrasebook into a foreign country and thinking you can speak the language. Plus, any audio-only type of program is pointless, because, like he says, you cannot expand on vocabulary independently if you are illiterate.
Taricus 1 month ago
There is definitely truth to what he says. I was at the library yesterday searching for Chinese books. There was a book entitled "Ta De Guo"(it was in all Chinese characters though). I put two and two together and figured out that De must turn the character for "He(Ta)" into the possessive "His". Guo means country. So I figured that the title said "His Country". I've never cracked open a book explaining Mandarin Grammar. I just read and listen everyday.
mindstate30 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
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@Taricus It IS impossible to master the basics of any language. You can master a DIALECT of a language. English has many dialects(Northern, Southern, British) , Chinese has a TON of dialects that are pretty much unintelligible between each dialect. People in Beijing speak differently than in Shanghai. British English is FAR different from American English. There are still Americans who violate basic English grammar rules and for all practical purposes, they are considered fluent in the language
mindstate30 1 month ago
I totally get your critique. Pimsleur is time consuming, and you are forced to learn what someone else has felt is important to learn. Pimsleur is also quite expensive if you buy their 30 CD course. I have tried my luck with its course in german, and it is a fine course. But I would not want to try for example russian or hindi, because reading gets more difficult and it is not enough to just listen and repeat the words on the list that follows the course. What do I get out from hearing D35#jf9 ?
svsimon 1 month ago
I find Pimsleurs helpful for wetting my feet in CERTAIN languages. Just listening to a few lessons to get a feel for the phonetics and i'll figure out what I need to supplement it with if I were to continue. I will definitely agree that you won't be anywhere near fluent, but it's good for beginners who want a convenient and easy way to get some basic conversational training in a new language. It can quickly give you confidence to go up to talk to people not long after you pick up a few things.
elguapotetigre 1 month ago
Like Steve says, my method of studying Chinese has been passive at best. I read, listen and digest a lot of basic...limited content. I listen to Chinese music even though I don't understand it..it helps me get used to hearing native speakers and aids in visualizing and processing pinyin tones faster. When I listen, I close my eyes and visualize everything in my head. When I read, I look up words in the dictionary that I don't know. I study about 1 hour a day and it seems to work very well.
mindstate30 1 month ago
Man... you don't like anything but lingq and you always try to discredit everyone. Give credit when credit is due.
gomezs1982 1 month ago
Makes sense. It's cool to listen to. But i do use linq and pimsleur. each to their own
Dittofication 1 month ago
native pronunciation Pimsleur > Michel Thomas
fallasdf 1 month ago
You make a great point Steve, I think what's appealing about Pimsleur is exactly what you criticized... The "bark now" now I am "learning". It has a decent amount of instant gratification to where it can appeal to alot of people. Included in the alot of people are those less inclined to critically examine how "organically"? They learn language. Regardless I do think Pimsleur a very good way to show beginning language learners that learning can be fun and easy.
BobtheMoneythedbr 1 month ago 2
@BobtheMoneythedbr My video only really talks about why I do not like Pimsleur.
lingosteve 1 month ago
I'm talking about very basics and word order and the few basic verbs
Taricus 1 month ago
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mindstate30 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Taricus I think the point he is trying to make is that you should just dive into reading new articles that interest you or listen to foriegn music. The human mind has a way of detecting patterns after a while and simple things such as grammar and sentence structure will fall into place. It's the way children learn their native languages speak..by listening to their parents. That's why they advise you to READ to your children. Programs like Pimsleur limit your vocabulary growth.
mindstate30 1 month ago
My idea of basics are just the line where you know faire and such.... The ones that are important... or knowing how to say "me" or "I" properly... You don't want to be the guy who goes, "Moi veux blah blah blah...." You should know it's "je". Otherwise, you just sound like a caveman :P
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus You learn the basics anyway if you do enough listening and reading using content of interest. No need to concentrate on them.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve I'm talking about the basics that let you take advantage of listening and reading, because you recognize the common patterns. I can run across a new word and have a pretty good idea of what it means, but it's because I know the common patterns. It's the same way that you learn to drive a car... You learn how first. You don't get a license by watching mommy and daddy doing it, you earn it thru practice and knowing the basics and then doing it--otherwise you mess up.
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus Is it so difficult for you to understand that I do not believe you can master the "basics"? For me, I just keep on learning and gradually different bits of how the language works fall into place. You have a different perspective. Good for you. You are not going to convince me. I have a lot of experience learning languages.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve I have a lot of experience learning languages too and I'm very sorry that you will never ever approach a "basic" level of comprehension.... :P I was able to do it in many languages and can now speak many. Obviously, the only thing I find difficult to understand is why you think you have a lot of "experience" learning languages, if you want to say that no one can learn the 'basics'....
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve I find it rediculous that you stand on pretentious podium and say it's impossible, yet flaunt your expertise in the subject matter. I, at first, liked your videos; until you told me off and acted like it was impossible to achieve the lowest of aspirations. I've been learning languages since 4th grade; I'm now 32 years old and study international relations and travel around the world with no problems in communicating in my 5 target languages. Some took longer than others, but it's
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve Not impossible, and I can't conceive of a "teacher" who could put people down who listen to him saying that it isn't even possible to achieve a basic level, while he spouts off about levels of fluency. I even have a full scholarship to go to China and study in Hangzhou, because of my successes in the language--likely because they were impressed by my BASIC ability to speak the language. Honestly, read some Chomsky. We are genetically predisposed to learn languages as a species.
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve Your mindset is very American. It is impossible to NOT be able to learn language. I am surrounded constantly with people who can successfully speak in multiple languages. I know Army interpreters and have professors from other countries who have no qualms with speaking English with me. I have friends from when I lived in Italy that can understand me fully when I speak English. Many people in the world learn the basics just fine. You're just shutting others down.
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve The basics are fairly easy to learn... It's mostly getting a feeling for the flow of a language, and then you delve into the hard stuff... If you work at it, you can achieve basic level in about.. oh, I dunno, for me, about 4-6 months.... Then you delve into the hard stuff, but keep companion objects like books and movies to accelerate you while you decipher the news (where people talk at a million miles an hour lol)
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve I think we had a miscommunication. When I say basics, I mean that as long as you know the regular verb forms and such (if the language conjugates) and sentence structure, then you're set to play on FaceBook apps and go on websites to try to learn what you can, because it's recognizable or at least decipherable. I don't mean you should keep your nose in a grammar book for years, because you won't learn the REAL language that REAL people use that way.
Taricus 1 month ago
Wait... continue in argument other we languages this prefer if you! (I didn't learn the basics of English first, but at least I got the words right! :P )
Taricus 1 month ago
We can continue this argument in other languages if you prefer! LOL! Now I'm entertained! :P
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus We disagree on the subject of the ability to learn basics. Not much more to say on this. You have your view and I have mine.
lingosteve 1 month ago 2
@lingosteve LOL! You know I'm just messin' with you right?! :P I actually adore your vids... I think we just have a different idea of what "basics" are, like many people debate over what "fluent" is....
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve If you hold the same value system as me on what is basic, I really have to just shake my head at you for thinking people aren't capable of achieving something so easy.... Basics are easy... they just take time and then you explode outward in your learning experience... They're like tiny hurdles that everyone has to overcome to be successful... I can't imagine why you would say basics aren't important and then turn on Pimsleur in the same sentence, because Pimsleur says you don't
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve have to understand basics... yet you're contradicting yourself if that's what you are saying...
Taricus 1 month ago
Aw... he's ignoring me now! LOL! I have valid input! I speak 5 languages and somehow I'm classified as the idiot who doesn't know anything! How did that happen?! LOL!
Taricus 1 month ago
Have you completed a Pimsleur course in its entirety before?
EscapeMonotony 1 month ago
@EscapeMonotony No I was unable to continue with Pimsleur because I did not like listening to the English and having to speak when prompted. I only do what I like to do, and what I find interesting when it comes to language learning.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve That's cool. However, I believe if the course were given a chance you'd see that it uses limited vocabulary (of common words) in order to help you recognize the disparity between verb tenses and sentence construction that will later aid you when you add to your arsenal of vocabulary.
This just seemed to me like an evaluation of a Maserati without ever having gone beyond 20 MPH.
Thanks nonetheless. I always look forward to hearing your opinions on language learning.
EscapeMonotony 1 month ago
The grammar books just continue it, because when you encounter rare forms of speaking, then you can be like, "HEY! I just read about that!"
Taricus 1 month ago
When you achieve basic structure, it's fun to dive in the deep end to enhance yourself.
Taricus 1 month ago
and of course you can learn basics.... :P Kids do it all the time! The only difference is how much you can be around the target language. The more native it is the better!
Taricus 1 month ago
@lingosteve by basics, I mean basic structure and knowing the most common verbs and phrases.
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus I do not believe that it is possible to learn these first and build on them. We absorb the language organically, amorphously.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve but you kind of HAVE to... You minimize it in that direction, but you NEED to know what sounds natural before you throw yourself at it, or you end up with a sentence that sounds jumbled. We don't all have the benefit of being around native speakers 24/7. Those basics are important to learn how it flows, then you take all the bits and pieces you encounter and include them.
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus If you don't agree, why do you even have those books to begin with? You were learning the basics of how the language falls together, otherwise you'd just walk out your front door and start speaking Russian "organically"
Taricus 1 month ago
@voodoochills, and a the problem with these audio course books is that many of the scenarios in the course will never happen to you in real life. My whole day will not be revolved around me ordering coffee in the cafe, buying a train ticket, or asking a sales person how much will a purse cost. I rather listen to news radio in my target language, because I need to hear all kinds of vocabulary and news/current event topics that I can use in actual every day dealings with people. Real life stuff.
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
That lack of confidence of not being sure of what we heard turns in being not confident on how to respond, because while you are trying to reply back, you are still focused on the uncertainty of what had been said to you. In my experience of learning languages and watching people do so as well, is that lots of people are inadequate in knowing how to listen in their target language, not the actual talking part. And one doesn't need to buy expensive learning tools in order to listen.
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
@TheSeductiveArts Fully agree.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@voodoochills, I want to say lastly is what made most of us fail to learn a language the first time around is the lack of listening in the target language, not the inability to respond and speak right away. Matter of fact, I believe that one can't speak/respond to another human being at all unless they know how to listen in the L2 language in the first place. Lack of response is due to us not being confident. We are not confident, because we are not sure what was being said to us from the start.
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
Oh, yeah those "________ in 10 Minutes A Day" books lie about spending 10 minutes to learn. Who can learn in 10 minutes a day? Some of the material they give you, takes about 1 or 2 hours to learn. These marketing ploys of lying how quickly you can learn targets impatient people to learn a language, but in reality these people will feel very disappointed when they can't learn as fast as the material claim, then they will feel as if there is something wrong with their intellect for not learning.
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
Worst than Pimsleur is the "______ in 10 minutes a day", I got this in Japanese and German and talk about constant stupid exercises and games and mixing the L2 language with English, for instance, "I have 'ichi' (one) book. But Sazuki-san has 'ju-ni' more books than me." "What time does the 'rensha' (train) comes? 'Watashi' needs to know, because 'Watashi (I) don't want to be late for work." Just pure stupidity. I wasted $20 TWICE on this mess. Who can learn this way?!
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
I agree with your comments on the shady marketing practices of some of the big companies, Teach Yourself in particular.
In Europe the B1 level, lower intermediate, requires a working vocabulary of around 2,000 to 3,000 words depending on the language being learnt. Teach Yourself books usually contain around 1,000 to 1,300 words (some languages have even less) which is somewhere between A1 and A2 - beginner levels. Yet they market the books as teaching to intermediate levels.
It's crazy.
MrScotchpie 1 month ago
OMG! THANK YOU! ^_^ I also hate Rosetta Stone for a similar reason! That russian book also sucks, cuz I had that one before and I sold it back to the store! Their Italian one was decent, but the Russian one was horrible! It didn't give you any meat of the language, it treated you like, "If I repeat the same phrases enuff time, you'll be able to recognize every phrase that I taught you!", but you couldn't talk..... The point is to just feel the language and most programs don't help that.
Taricus 1 month ago
I was reading about Pimsleur but it isn't a good method for learning languages I prefer LingQ it isn't faster but is more effective LingQ has many real dialogues where you can improve your skills but in real time not as false says learning programs they promise to teach you in 10 days in my opinion it is imposible maybe we could learn some words, some phrases, improve our listening, what the others skills what? I wish I had a magic box to learn the languages I want. The secret is study everyday
PdGiza 1 month ago
I don't see how you would spend as much as 100h on Pimsleur (let alone "hundreds of hours"). Unless you do so much repeated listening that you on average listen to the whole thing more than twice (which might be the case), because a three part course it's 45h long (30min * 30 episodes * 3 parts).
numerodixed 1 month ago
@numerodixed I always listen to beginning material many times. If I invested hundreds of dollars I would want to spend hundreds of hours listening.
lingosteve 1 month ago
hello mr, you are right about this topic, i'm learning norwegian language, and i must say the pimsleur program really dont't like at all, now i've been using teach yourself and it's quite fine plus LingQ.com (very very good resource by the way), but i've one issue about learning the norwegian program at LingQ sometimes when i want to see lessons or download them, it's (freezes or hangs up,etc) Mr Steve, can be this possible due to this norwegian program at lingQ is a beta version on the website?
3dsc4d 1 month ago
@3dsc4d I have not seen this problem. I suggest you post about it on our Forum to see if anyone else has any ideas or has experienced this.
lingosteve 1 month ago
Is there any likelihood of lingq allowing imports from unsupported languages any time soon? I don't understand the programming in the background, but just being able to import dialogues from estonian or another unsupported language and mark them would be a really nice feature.
And weren't the dictionaries for the Beta languages fairly simplistic at the beginning..I don't know, just really like the site and can't use it for Estonian haha
jjay75 1 month ago
@jjay75 You can use a slot that you are not going to use. Dictionaries might be a problem though until Estonian is voted in as the next language.
lingosteve 1 month ago
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LorCertt 1 month ago
subscribed to this great channel!
LorCertt 1 month ago
Steve, with regard to using books and courses for starting a language, do you always complete all the dialogues in the book? I tend to find myself using an Assimil or TY course for getting started, but I burn out about half-way into the book, even skipping the exercises.. Did you try to finish such books yourself when you started Russian or Czech?
qzchris 1 month ago
@qzchris I started Russian before we had it at LingQ and used what I could find. I tended to finish what I started with a few exceptions. Assimil is one that that I quickly got tired of. With Czech I rely mostly on beginner content created by LingQ members and now online newspapers and radio programs with transcripts and some audio books for which I have the text.
lingosteve 1 month ago
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qzchris 1 month ago
Steve you're the Canadian James Bond of languages.
MrOregona230 1 month ago 2
@MrOregona230 I am not sure I understand but I will take it as a compliment. cheers!
lingosteve 1 month ago 6
@lingosteve He means: When it comes to language learning, you kick butt with style!
SubjectAlpha100 1 month ago
@lingosteve You're skilled, suave and really get around!
MrOregona230 1 month ago
steve, i find it extraordinary that your views on language learning coincides exactly with my own experience and my theory of what works when it comes to learning languages. Actively accepting vs passively taking in is the highlight of this video.
Yperanthropoidsx 1 month ago
When I was learning Japanese, I used Pimsleur. However I quickly outgrew it as I was also using a text book to teach myself. It was only after I finished Heisig's RTK1 and started reading more that my learning excelled dramatically. You're right that it doesn't build a very big vocabulary. It does teach overly polite forms of speech. And yet, I could recite the phrases perfectly. Though you can do that yourself with a book and an SRS like Focus, Surusu, or Anki. A better bang for the buck.
learnjapanesehacker 1 month ago
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learnjapanesehacker 1 month ago
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PdGiza 1 month ago
Obviously you can´t become fluent in a language just by using alone, but it will help you to speak right away and if I remember correctly you even said in one of your videos that speaking right off the bat and practicing is very important, regardless if your grammar is incorrect, Pimsleur helps you do this -or at least it did for me.
Sorry, I just don´t really get why you made this video, if you don´t like it then don´t use it, I don´t see a reason to point out negative points about the program.
voodoochills 1 month ago
@voodoochills No I do not think speaking right away is important. If that is what you want to do, then fine, but I tend not to do so. See my recent efforts over the last 10 years with Cantonese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian and Czech. At my channel I mostly talk about how I study languages. Some may find my experience useful, others may not. That is why I made this and other videos.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve Well I seem to recall you making a video quite a while back talking about not worrying if you´re speaking with incorrect grammar when just starting out, and just to speak with what you know, the rest will come after. If I´m incorrect then, sorry.
voodoochills 1 month ago
@voodoochills No I do not remember saying that we should speak early. I have always said that we should speak when we want to and feel confident. And whenever that is, and that point will vary for different people, we should just speak and not worry about making mistakes.
lingosteve 1 month ago
@lingosteve
Alright maybe not then.
voodoochills 1 month ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@voodoochills, I think one can speak immediately in one's target language by just listening to radio stations in the L2 language. I have been doing this for 2 weeks with French where I couldn't understand a word the French talk show host was saying, but after 2 weeks I can get the gist of the conversation. All you need to do is talk to yourself, as insane as it sounds, using the vocabulary you currently know. It is really easy. Just describe what happened during that day and talk about....
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
@voodoochills, I think one can speak immediately in one's target language by just listening to radio stations in the L2 language. I have been doing this for 2 weeks with French where I couldn't understand a word the French talk show host was saying, but after 2 weeks I can get the gist of the conversation. All you need to do is talk to yourself, as insane as it sounds, using the vocabulary you currently know. It is really easy. Just describe what happened during that day and talk about....
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
@TheSeductiveArts
I know what you mean and I agree with you there. I still do that often, try to speak with myself at times when I have no one else to practice with haha.
voodoochills 1 month ago
@voodoochills, in your target language as if you are writing in a diary/personal journal. Once you do that a lot, thinking then talking in the language happens very quickly. No need for Pimsleur, I guess. Once you can talk to yourself more fluently, then you can talk to others, because conversation is all about saying and making a sentence as soon as you get the though and that is why talking to yourself is beneficial and an inexpensive activity to do. Because those audio CDs cost lots of money.
TheSeductiveArts 1 month ago
@TheSeductiveArts
I agree they are very expensive audio CDs, and I would probably never buy them.(But torrents are your friend ;-) ). Otherwise, like you said as well theres also plenty of free resources on the net.
voodoochills 1 month ago
Also, Pimsleur is not meant to give you a dictionary of vocabulary, its meant to get you speaking right away - which it does. Once you start speaking, you can talk with people and they can help you along and explain to you more things/words, plus help build your vocabulary. But again I think it depends on who you are and how you learn (like yourself...).
voodoochills 1 month ago
@voodoochills I do not find that just speaking to people about simple things helps me to build vocabulary. if I have a small vocabulary I cannot say much and I cannot understand much of what is said. I prefer to reply on my input activities.
lingosteve 1 month ago
Like you said, on YOUR experience. For some people - yes they will master the subjunctive just from that book or exercise book whatever, it all depends on who you are.
voodoochills 1 month ago
@voodoochills Where did the subjunctive come from? I am talking about acquiring vocabulary.
lingosteve 1 month ago 2
@lingosteve That you mentioned from that czech book
voodoochills 1 month ago
@lingosteve vocabulary is fine and dandy, but you honestly have to get many books to have a good vocab. A lot of my language books are books from games and such. I can talk about dragons and magic all day long, but if you delve into real estate, I start losing contact. A good approach that I found to fix that is to take books from a lot of different sources and read them. vocab is tricky, because if you overfocus on a certain area, you become limited to that subject.
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus When you become comfortable with the basics, you should spread out so that you get a good mix of influences. Even grammar can change between different types of books and subjects :P but having the basics opens the door for you.. Every book could possibly turn into a nightmare of using the dictionary over and over, but by the end, you don't have to look things up very much, because you start absorbing the new content.
Taricus 1 month ago
@Taricus I don't believe that we become "comfortable with the basics" and then move on. Some of the " basics" take a long time to sink in. We need lost of exposure and gradually the fog lifts.
lingosteve 1 month ago
Lol yeah Freudian slip :P
forgottenmemories21 1 month ago
" i disgust pimsleur" Freudian slip..
erdal0 1 month ago
@erdal0 discussed...who is being Freudian, it isn't me.
lingosteve 1 month ago