Can You Reason Someone Out of Their Beliefs with Sam Harris

[Snakepliskinist]

You can change people's minds, but it's so tedious and frustrating and time consuming. I've de-religionized a number of people, but it always occurs with a one-on-one interaction with my ceaseless logic eroding their belief. It helps that my mind contains an enormous amount of information to draw upon. What's frustrating, in my opinion, is that it really shouldn't require such logic or information realize that religious shit is stupid. Also frustrating to pretend belief isn't stupid...

[Psychonaut1992]

Interesting points... it took me about a year to "grow out" of Christianity age 15-16. I remember doubting it for a long time, questioning things. Funnily enough I don't remember my Christian parents harassing me on that, or even an atheist influence. It feels egotistical to say but it's like I got there myself.

[Zebonka]

I don't reckon you always can. There is a definite human habit of sticking to their guns even when they're plain fucking wrong. It happens a lot.

[Aluminata]

The seemingly bizarre wide spread prevalence of a predisposition to the circumvention of rational thought in contemplation all powerful entities may be traced to the genetic lineage of the majority of human beings, now living, having been subject to ruthlessly despotic authority figures  holding whimsical powers of life or death over their subjects.

[lifeschild1]

I am awe struck by the intellectual prowess of Christopher Hitchens and grieve at his passing. Although I recently found out about him only a few short days ago, I had spent numerous hours watching him and listening to him debate the issues posed. I feel like I knew him a lifetime.

[1707054]

@lifeschild1 He was a great man and someone we can admire and aspire to be Intellectually.

[lifeschild1]

@1707054 You have relatively few words in description of praise of a man of such ability and astonishing qualities of superiority??! Mr. Hichens truly had unmatched charisma, intellectual prowess, a broad history based knowledge of the world, and a combined fearless attitude and fortitude, that will never ever again be witnessed by our generation. No free thinker that I've seen, would ever directly accuse rivals of being disingenuous fraudulent Hippocrates, especially face to face as he had.

[1707054]

@lifeschild1 Ok, i can't say enough good things about a beautiful mind such as the late Mr. Hitchens! Let me just say he was to modern day philosophy, what Steve Jobs was to Apple!

[lifeschild1]

@1707054 Thank you. Now you must at least try to take his place since he had advocated respect for you. You are the most intellectually qualified person to do so. Learn to debate forcefully with much more emotional enthusiasm and follow in the footsteps of Christopher Hitchens, who once said, "I will FIGHT/ PUSH BACK theist bureaucratic mythology, superstitious belief and propaganda everywhere that I go and every chance that I get!"

[lifeschild1]

The demise of life, is congruently intersected and connected together with the inception of life and is one and the same accordingly. Born of the intertwining genetic material which gives us life at birth, we miraculously become what we are. But where did we come from? And, where do we go after death? Theorizing, the fact that energy can not be created or destroyed, my perception would be that: "After death we will return once again to the place that we once came from."

[lifeschild1]

I was born into Catholicism and presently concede that I had been conveniently and convincingly brainwashed in to such thinking by cult activist, super-naturalistic, fantasy wielding, supremacists. I now submit to you, that I have changed my mind completely, since I now resign myself to the fact that any faith based religion is most assuredly a waste of time for me and for anyone who could reason accordingly and envision reality as it really is.

[smokeshow1984]

reasoning with a person about there religion = a 3 year old kid with his fingers in his ears going lalalalalala i can't hear you. then followed by my mommy says im special.

[morewater14]

If you could reason with religious people then there would be no religion.

[TheAtheologian]

@morewater14 So close to the House quote...

[lsynno]

My devout faith was "weakened" by a close friend who already had my trust and as a result of that i questioned my faith for myself and became an atheist.

For me it was like a rowing boat the progress was down to my individual efforts and all my friend really did is give me a push to get me moving but it helped.

If anyone has a theist friend try to change their beliefs they wont change their minds and might even hate you. But if you can help them think for themselves they will appreciate it.

[glower125]

ZIONIST TRASH!

[AceofDlamonds]

To tackle a religious debate, especially revolving around morality, omnibenevolence, and the like, all I need to do is grab the hearts of the audience and change a few people's minds. That for me is a win.

[AceofDlamonds]

I am 99% certain I can change one of my close friends' mind about god. I just need to up my fluency in my native language.

[drazzellstarfish]

To anyone confused at about 3:07 when Harris referred to religious experiences being "admittedly salactious," let's suppose that he said the word "fallacious" instead. :-)

[DBDMotorsports]

Isn't atheism itself a belief? But you don't see me trying to reason you out of that. Because everyone has a right to their own beliefs. If Bob, lets say, wants to believe that a giant purple spaghetti monster is the reason why we exist, why should we stop him.

What ever maintains buoyancy in your personal nautical vessel.

[drazzellstarfish]

@DBDMotorsports "Isn't atheism itself a belief?"

No, it's an ontological position.

For example, suppose we decide to test whether a coin toss is truly random by having you toss the coin while I guess the result. Suppose that I always pick heads. Does this imply in any way that I BELIEVE it will most often come up heads? No, it's simply the position I have chosen to adopt because it makes scoring a bit easier.

[DBDMotorsports]

@drazzellstarfish Touche.

[drazzellstarfish]

@DBDMotorsports

Another one you might like is "atheism is a belief in the same sense as not collecting stamps is a hobby."

By the way, why should we be concerned if Bob wants to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Well, basically because if we go along with one assertion based on no evidence then we're on the hook to allow any such assertion. You could ask Bob, "Wheres the five bucks you owe me?" and he says, "I gave it to the FSM. Look, he's offering it to you."

[DBDMotorsports]

@drazzellstarfish No what I'm saying is, someones belief is their own business. Article 1 on the US bill of rights. If they want to practice a belief, they are free to do so and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, they are free to do so. I was going to say "without criticism" but lets get real here, someone always has to be a dick.

[drazzellstarfish]

@DBDMotorsports

Ah, okay then. Now we're onto ethics. We're distinguishing between (1) privately held beliefs and (2) public claims that we might make based not on evidence but on belief. It would be a totalitarian act to disallow (1).  That's what Orwell meant by "thought crime". However, it's not possible to justify (2) even in cases where there is no obvious harm. A surgeon must not operate based only on a BELIEF that the procedure is necessary. There must be evidence.

[DBDMotorsports]

@drazzellstarfish Jesus Christ man! (if you do believe in that stuff). Let me clarify. Beliefs equals one's choice in religion. What george orwell said doesn't override our rights. We have a right to free speech, a right to peacefully protest or gather for a cause and a right to freely practice a belief aka religion without anyone stepping in. My argument this whole time was to the "Can you reason someone out of their beliefs". My point is: It isn't any of your business what someone believes in.

[drazzellstarfish]

@DBDMotorsports

Thanks for clarifying. You're countering (or defending, I'm still not clear which) an ontological position on political grounds. Frankly, I don't think that's an effective basis for argument. You can't cite a particular example of one nation to address general and rather universal questions in ethics and ontology. It's trivial to counter such an argument by citing ANY other nation, for example China, which does it differently. Do you see the problem?

[DBDMotorsports]

@drazzellstarfish You're not even countering, you're just nit-picking my etiquette... Is it possible to put aside your obviously superior, harvard-trained, debate team argument skills and forget about global ethics and ontology? The question this video is asking is: "Can You Reason Someone Out of Their Beliefs?". And I said (not countered), Why should it be any of your business what someone believes and why does one feel obligated to confront that person and try to reason them out of it?

[drazzellstarfish]

@DBDMotorsports

I'm sorry if you feel threatened by reasoned discussion, but it's all that I can offer. There's no need to offer a personal attack; what it does is make your position look weaker. As to your questions, I gave what I intended to be constructive answers by reference to specific ethical principles. These are open to debate, but I get the impression you aren't interested in this sort of exploration, only in "winning". To me, that's not the point at all.

[DBDMotorsports]

@drazzellstarfish I'm not interested in winning... what would victory over you in a debate on some youtube video even prove. I am frustrated because your "answers" have only been questions about technicalities. You are over analyzing and treating this discussion like it can have implications later on. Who cares if my bill of rights comment doesn't apply to china? I mean really dude? I asked a simple question, you are obviously incapable of giving a simple answer.

[Maddolis]

@DBDMotorsports It isn't any of my business what someone else believes in- but if their belief-based actions are a hindrance to the well being or development of my nation then it becomes my business.

[DBDMotorsports]

@drazzellstarfish Islam and that baptist church that protests at funerals of soldiers can go to hell though :P. And I totally just went against the point I was making... but something tells me you agree with me?

[DBDMotorsports]

Before everyone bashes me for my beliefs, my combined personal view, as a catholic, a person, and as a citizen of Canada, a country with a charter of rights, is that why would you want to reason someone out of their beliefs. If it doesn't hurt me or those I care about, I could care less if a man chooses to love a man, or women on women, if you believe in a god of some sort or not. Why don't parents tell their kids Santa Clause is fake?

[halflifeproductionz]

Islam is by far the most successful at brainwashing its followers to bronze age stupidity.

[hellhammerz666]

It's tough to make them change because they're so deeply enthralled within the religious mindset that validates faith as a virtue, that it becomes impossible until they acknowledge the fact that faith is simply gullibility disguised as a virtue.

The problem is, when you point to the inconsistencies of religion towards this endeavor, they often will try to obfuscate the evident inconsistencies by saying you don't understand the scriptures or some other nonsense of that sort.

[rsgirl10]

I changed the minds of a few Catholic friends from my school. This is how I would win it:

Me: Do you believe in Adam and Eve?

Them: No, that's just symbolic

Me: Well, why was Jesus sent down?

Them: *something about original sin*

Me: Well, we've got original sin because of Adam and Eve, right? But if you don't believe in them, your whole reason for supporting Jesus is based on nothing.

I got some of my friends from being die-hard Catholic to simple theists. Won't work for everyone, but try it.

[GnosticHumanist]

Can you reason an ethnic supremacist Zionist like Sam Harris out of the belief that the ethnic cleansing of many millions of indigenous Palestinians is OK merely because they're not Jewish and thus considered ethnically inferior.

Answer: Not much chance.

[puckle3]

i feel like people who change their beliefs always do it on their own when you try to reason everyone on both sides gets defensive...sometimes atleast

[rsgirl10]

@puckle3

Yeah, I've never heard of a person converting to atheist because of a YouTube argument. It usually requires introspection and skepticism. However, I do think that having calm arguments with people of opposing opinions can kind of spark that skepticism, even if you don't convert right away.

[puckle3]

@rsgirl10 well you don't really convert atheism is the lack of a religion so it's more like taking your beliefs and throwing them out the window

[SeedsOfHatred]

(Part 2) faith any more than they would question whether the ice in their drink is really cold or not.

Also, I've never heard Sam Harris say "Bullshit" before. Haha. It was kind of cool.

[SeedsOfHatred]

It depends entirely on the person and their original mindset. To change their mind; the person has to be at least a little reasonable to begin with. I myself was a Christian - certain in my beliefs - for the first 20 years of my life. Being reasonable, though, I was willing to question my faith - at which point I found it to be flawed.

There are those who will NEVER question their faith. It wont even enter their mind because they're so *absolutely* certain. They will not question their

[ebowebo]

I always say to people who claim to have experiences: Why do you attribute those experiences to your current beliefs?

[drazzellstarfish]

@ebowebo "Why do you attribute [religious] experiences to your current beliefs?"

As I've had several such experiences, I can attempt an answer. Almost by definition, such experiences arise in the midst of a profound search for meaning during emotional crisis. Thus they will have compelling personal resonance for us. Even if clinically they're just psychotic episodes, we still gain comfort and insight from the sense of breaking through to something bigger than we knew before.

[ebowebo]

@drazzellstarfish Very well said! But the case still stands, there is no reason to subscribe to any religion. You can still have spiritual experiences through yourself. And I actually have found them to be more powerful when exercised in that manner.

[hellasow]

I have never believed in a god, But i have changed my mind on subjects. But i never changed my mind on the spot. So as often as possible when some nutjob starts spouting off about god. I try to say something. Even though i might not change thier mind. i might at least slow down or stop them from polluting others with nonsense.

[camgan1]

You definitely can reason someone out of their beliefs. Its just pretty hard to do. A friend of mine was a somewhat religious christian when I first started hanging out with him and over time I pretty much reasoned him out of his beliefs. It is pretty hard for a decent person to justify an all loving God sending his creations to be tortured for all eternity simply for not believing in him.

[ltshortcut]

@camgan1 lol

[dancer8164]

I love him. I LOVE HIM

[tamu77095]

you know he's just playing solitaire right? .... Pro

[paperfreeck]

@tamu77095 there is no solitaire for apple :)

[theoriginalwasa]

@paperfreeck like we need yet another reason not to buy an apple... SOLITARE WINS

[LiberacionIgualdad]

Very interesting points! We do need to be more understanding with those we disagree with and/or are plain wrong if we want to see meaningful changes.

[joetwizzy]

sam harris makes a good point, however I find it hard to take people seriously who believe all that crap, I find it easy to just tell them its bullshit.

[lovingboarding]

@fenaocha

And first disliked comment.

[SturrStruck]

@lovingboarding The quest of the Dragon Born to locate fenaocha's comment begins.

[dpowens]

@fenaocha First and worst.