2011 Juddmonte International Stakes - Twice Over / Midday

[GBeret83]

Midday's final race as well? Although Midday does have an entry for the BC F&M Turf again. But Cecil said they were going to see how she came out of the race at Ascot before they decide whether or not to send her to the F&M Turf? Cecil said if Midday does go to Churchill Downs? That would be the final race of her career, also.

[GBeret83]

I watched the interview with Sir Henry Cecil on Racing Post where they interviewed him while showing footage of Frankel, Twice Over, and Midday's works in preparation for the upcoming Champions Day card. Cecil said that there was so little between Twice Over and Midday in this race that both of them are going to run together in the Champion Stakes. He said that would be Twice Over's final race. Because he doesn't go well enough on dirt to go to the BC Classic. He said it might be<<<CONTD<<<<

[CharlesOlney23]

All this talk about american horses chances in their classic race...Can we all just admire what a gutsy, truely consistent and quality horse Twice Over is, standing as the best 1m2f horse in the UK. This was a truly great race between two of the best 1m2f horses in training. And how nice that the Twice could get another Grp1 to add to the Coral Eclipse and 2 Champions Stakes. Next stop the Champions Stakes against SYT, Snow Fairy, Cape Blanco, Sir Putra and Green Destiny. And ATD wont win the BC

[GBeret83]

@CharlesOlney23, Can't say I agree with you that Twice Over is the best 1m 2f horse in training when he got blasted by Rewilding and SYT in the Prince of Wales, and will get blasted by SYT again if Aidan O'Brien send's him to the Champion Stakes? Which is very likely, IMO. SYT will run Twice Over completely off of his feet.

[CharlesOlney23]

@GBeret83 So You Think is trained in Ireland NOT! in the Uk where Twice Over is. Twice over was never going to run well over 1m in the Lockinge and wasnt at his fittest (as Cecil hinted) come Ascot. Now in his older days needs a longer straight. At Ascot there's a sharper bend into the final straight whereas as York where he has a 100% strike rate the straight is among the longest in the country. Now he's fit and racing where he's best at he could well beet SYT as Snow Fairy nearly did.

[GBeret83]

@CharlesOlney23, Actually, I saw the Prix Vermeille card on Racing Post today, and I have to say I'm quite surprised that Midday isn't on it? You may know more about this than I, but I've also heard rumors that Cecil doesn't intend to bring Midday back to Churchill Downs for the B.C. F&M Turf this year, either? So if she's not going to the Prix Vermeille? And isn't coming to the F&M Turf? One would have to assume that Cecil either intends to run Midday in the Champion Stakes or the Arc? JMO

[CharlesOlney23]

@GBeret83 I personaly thought that the logical route was Longchampre and then a trip to America. But if that wasnt the case then I still doubt that the owners will run her in the Arc whith Workforce. She doesnt have the speed to win the race, more the guts to win a tight Grp1 then the worlds best all aged race. If Ascot is on the cards then the Qipco Fillies' and Mares Race could be on the cards at 1m4f with a shortish run in and a first prize of £250,000. But TO is still Uk's top for Champion.

[GBeret83]

@CharlesOlney23, With the Champion Stakes and Pride Stakes no longer at Newmarket, I forgot that Ascot had added a new 1-1/2 race for the fillies and mares. That whole switching of races and tracks has me confused. LOL. I know the Royal Lodge Stakes is leaving Ascot for Newmarket now. So I'm not 100% sure what races are where now? Between the one's that have been switched around between Ascot and Newmarket. If you know what I mean?

[CharlesOlney23]

@GBeret83 I totally agree with you but at least the Dewhurst is staying at HQ. The Champion Should have stayed at Newmarket because the straight 1m2f is what iconised the race because no where else can do that and the race is so fair. At Ascot theres a short run in that can throw up dogy results especially in the classy races. Even the Royal Lodge should have stayed at Ascot because it was round and a good trial for the derby next year. Why have 2 Good 2yr races at Hq in a short time.

[GBeret83]

@CharlesOlney23, Completely agree with that statement!! Would've much rather seen the Champion Stakes stayed at Newmarket than move to Ascot. It's always been the centerpiece G1 for older horses at Newmarket in the fall. Royal-Ascot certainly doesn't have a shortage of G1's for older horses. I.E., The Prince of Wales, the King George, etc.... I, for one, am gonna miss the Champion Stakes being at Newmarket this year!!

[horseloverbecca14]

@GBeret83 I agree!!! I live in Newmarket and I've been going to see the Champion Stakes for the past 4 years. I've really wanted to see a horse come in with the QIPCO music playing and now they've taken one of our best races from us.

[GBeret83]

@horseloverbecca14, Couldn't agree with you more!! The Champion Stakes was really the fall centerpiece race for Newmarket. Something about that race being at Newmarket just really gave it a certain charm and ambiance, if you know what I mean? Not really looking forward to seeing it ran at Royal-Ascot at all.

[GBeret83]

@CharlesOlney23, Actually, I saw the Prix Vermeille card on Racing Post today, and I have to say I'm quite surprised that Midday isn't on it? You may know more about this than I, but I've also heard rumors that Cecil doesn't intend to bring Midday back to Churchill Downs for the B.C. F&M Turf this year, either? So if she's not going to the Prix Vermeille? And isn't coming to the F&M Turf? One would have to assume that Cecil either intends to run Midday in the Champion Stakes or the Arc? JMO

[CharlesOlney23]

@GBeret83 Twice Over also finished in front of Midday beeting her about 1/2 length. Midday beet Snow Fairy in the Nassau by about 2 1/2 lengths. Meening that Twice Over could well beet Sow Fairy by 3 lengths which is a lot further than So You Think beat her in the Irish Champion. And I think Midday will go to Longchampre where she has a fine record before going to the Breeders Cup where she finds her best form. The Champion will be too hot for her especially with Twice Over in the race.

[GBeret83]

After just watching the replay of his win in the G2 Grand Prix De Deauville, where he was the much the best by a street, I think Twice Over and Midday may have caught a break that Cirrus Des Aigles ended up running the Prix Gantaut-Biron instead of coming to this race. Cirrus Des Aigles has really been in devastating form in 2011. It's been arguably the best season of his career. But there is talk now that he'll be at Ascot in October for the G1 Champion Stakes.

[GBeret83]

I'm not going to come on here and say that Await The Dawn is better than Twice Over or Midday? You've got a total of 10 G1 win's between those two, now. But I will come on here and say that Await The Dawn wasn't at his very best at York for this race, and that Twice Over and Midday aren't both 6 length's better than him when he is at his best. TJMO.

[xWibbleywobbleyx]

I've always loved Twice Over and he deserved this win IMO, hs been a great servant to Sir Henry Cecil, and he's usually a very consistent horse (perhaps not this season, but he's just not been at his best), he seems so genuine

[IRSstables]

good race! Bit weird though, small field for a Stakes, and the announcer was so calm during the backstretch! haha

[malcs0]

Fantastic race. However for a race worth so much, how come this turned into a Khalid Abdulla benefit? Also, the Qipco people must be wondering how one of the biggest races in the calendar attracted a relatively poor field. Interestingly, Sir Henry told Tom Queally he was riding Midday; he didn't get a choice in the matter. Then he didn't do a quick interview to C4 Racing. I don't think he would have been too happy about missing a big pay day.

[debbider]

This franks the form of So You Think nicely,he beat Twice Over by 8000 lengths in the Prince of Wales Stakes

[rcschumann]

@debbider 3 yr old Cape Blanco beat him by a similar amount of lengths last year at the Irish Champion Stakes, when Twice Over was younger and having a better season, winning the Champion AND Eclipse Stakes, and just getting beaten at the wire by Rip Van Winkle at the Juddmonte. So what does that say about CB?

[debbider]

@rcschumann  LOL So You Think would annihilate Cape Blanco

[rcschumann]

@debbider Yes, great response. But the point I was also making with my previous comment, is that it doesn't mean anything that SYT blasted Twice Over. That horse has never had a good run at Ascot. Cape Blanco gave him a worse beating last year when Twice Over was a better horse, and he also beat him this year at the Dubai World Cup. SYT certainly wouldn't "annihilate Cape Blanco. It would be a close race, as CB is a great middle distance runner in his own right - watch the ICS last year.

[rcschumann]

@debbider A correction from my last comment: SYT didn't beat Twice Over at Ascot, he beat him at Sandown. It certainly was a great win by So You Think to beat Workforce, but Twice Over was just as impressive when he won the Eclipse last year, and was a fraction faster. And again, a race between So You Think and Cape Blanco over 1m2 or 1m4 would be close - not an "annihilation" for SYT by any means!

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann I agree, though SYT IMO would still beat Cape blanco fairly comfortably. I think there's two reasons Cape Blanco was sent to the states for the MOW and the Arlington Millions. 1. The fact that there is nothing capable of beating him at ~10F on turf in the states and 2. He would be running for 2nd against SYT.

[rcschumann]

@bgardiner2000 O'Brien has stated that he sent Cape Blanco to the US because winning major G1's abroad would increase his stud value - not because it would be easier for him to win races there. He sent Treasure Beach, one of the best 3 yr olds in the world, for the same reason. There's talk of CB standing in Kentucky when he's retired, and these two wins, with possibly more to come, would enhance his status. Watch CB at the Irish Champion Stakes 2010 - it would be close with SYT, no doubt.

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann Yeah... I think I'll run with my original reasons. He certainly took to the environment on the East Coast. Agreed the Champion Stakes is shaping up as a good race.

[rcschumann]

@bgardiner2000 Cape Blanco is not the most consistent out there, but when this big, strong horse is at his best and running on, or close to the lead, he's as tough as they get. He beat Workforce at both the Dante and King George, finishing 2nd to Harbinger in the latter. Both CB and SYT might contest the Cox Plate this year, which would be great to see. I'm looking forward to see So You Think at the ICS - that horse has talent to burn!

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann As an ozzy I guess there would be some satisfaction in seeing SYT win a 3rd Cox Plate. His racing style makes the 10F at Moonee Valley perfect for him. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the ruck in the Melb spring that could make a race of it. Whobegotyou is back amongst it but would struggle against the likes of SYT & CB if they are anywhere near their best. As a racing purest though I'd rather see him go at the Arc & the BC turf. Good ad for the ANZ breeding industry.

[rcschumann]

@bgardiner2000 Which ever race SYT goes for, it would be huge for him. If he wins the Cox, he would match the great Kingston Town's record at that prestigious event. If he wins the Arc or BC Turf, it would, as you said, be good for the breeding industry in Aus/NZ. I figure, since he's already in Europe, why not contest the Arc - the ground and style are similar to the races he's already won in UK/Ireland, and judging by how he finished at the Eclipse, I also see 12f as optimum for him.

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann I think you and I would be friends ;) I agree competely. KT's record is pretty historic and would certainly cap off a great career. But because of a few different reasons ANZ horses don't often get a live chance at an Arc / BC prep. There have been many outstanding horses from ANZ that could have been extremely competitive in these had there been the right set of circumstances to point them in that direction. Might & Power, Sunline, Northerly, Saintly, Better Loosen Up, Vo Rogue...

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann Super Impose, Naturalism, Makybe Diva, Lohnro, Octagonal, Horlicks etc. would have all been ultra competitive on the world stage. There's just not a lot forcing them OS. Now here we have So You Think which can be used as a reference point for every ANZ G1 winner. I think the IFHA underestimates ANZ ratings. It used to be true of our sprinters until the world sprint championship put them onto the world scale (and through the deeds of Silent Witness and co). Imagine if he did win...

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann an Arc. Personally I think it is far more signif than winning a 3rd CP. I agree that 12F would be his optimum. There's a lot of sceptics that don't agree. Some will say that there is a direct link btwn his ability to stay 12F & his 3rd in a 2m handicap. It's just absurd. If you watched the Eclipse without knowing the background u would never say that the runner up would be better suited if the race was longer. The real danger (now that Rewilding is out-RIP) are the 3yo's. JMO

[rcschumann]

@bgardiner2000 I understand what you mean by the 3 yr old threats at the Arc. Nathaniel is maybe the best of this age group over 12f in Europe, and you can add Treasure Beach and Pour Moi. The latter will almost certainly be at the Arc, and that electrifying performance at the Derby makes him a real contender. I would still put SYT as the main favorite at that race. There has also been talk of him running in the BC Classic. Raven's Pass won it in his first race on dirt in 08, so it's possible.

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann You'd probably know better than I but I have a feeling turf form probably translates better onto the cushion track that they had at Santa Anita in '08 than the conventional dirt at C'hill Downs? Of course I'd prefer he run in the big 1 & if C'more think he can win then maybe they'll send him. Certainly he's the best horse in the world at 10F. Will hinge on what he does in the ICS & after. If I had to choose I'd prefer the Arc. With any luck you'll see Black Caviar next year @ the BC.

[rcschumann]

@bgardiner2000 I forgot that the 08 race was at Santa Anita - the synthetic track does make a difference when translating from turf. Arcangues won it there as a massive long-shot when it was on dirt, and GC and Sakhee came the closest to winning the Classic on this surface since '93. SYT can do it, but I'm hoping the likes of Tizway, Twirling Candy or one of the improving 3 yr olds like Coil can land the BCC. The Arc should be SYT's best bet, as it's the most prestigious turf race in the world.

[rcschumann]

@bgardiner2000 I should probably wait for the Travers tonight before calling Coil, "improving", but he was impressive at the Haskell. Stay Thirsty (by Bernardini) is so far improving, coming in 2nd at Belmont and winning the G2 Jim Dandy. Regarding SYT, I mentioned before that he should take on Frankel at a mile, such as at the QEII. He has the size and strength, and his stride easily matches that of Frankel - why wouldn't he be great at 8f? Time to knock Frankel down a peg or two!

[bgardiner2000]

@rcschumann Yeah I don't disagree. I think SYT v Frankel over 8F would be a great race. Unlikely though as it is. So You Think won the Group 2 Memsie Stakes (7F) in a very slick 1:26.28 with his head on his chest. One thing is for sure... Frankel wouldn't get a 49 second half against SYT like he did v CC in the Sussex Stakes. I just now read that Pour Moi has broken down and will probably not run again. Very sad.

[ZinTouch]

Await The Dawn prefers longer IMO, and J P Obrien have proved to be a decent Jockey, Aiden OBrien wouldn't put him on a G1 horse if he wasn't good enough, IMO. And i also don't know why So You Think didn't run? Must be targeting something bigger and better maybe?

[GBeret83]

Looking at all the horses that I saw race at York today, I'm nearly convinced that Sea Moon could have gone out and won the Juddmonte International just as easily as he won the Great Voltigeur. LOL.

[uhegbu]

Twice Over deserve his place in the race's history. Stablemate Midday ran a good race and a below par performance by Await The Dawn.

[GBeret83]

I say this kind of as an afterthought now. I know that Aidan O'Brien really wanted to get some G1 experience under Await The Dawn's belt. Since his owners have emphatically stated, since he won the Hardwicke Stakes at Ascot back in June, that the Breeders Cup Classic is the ultimate year ending goal for him. But if you're a fan of Coolmore/Ballydoyle horses, and I am, you can't help but ask yourself how easily that So You Think could've won this race today? TJMO.

[bgardiner2000]

@GBeret83 Absolutely. I rally hope they are taking it easy on him because they have designs on Longchamp and Churchill Downs? I just read that Pour Moi has broken down and probably won't race again... which is a huge shame.

[GBeret83]

@bgardiner2000, Just last night on HRTV in America, I heard one of the commentators say they had spoken to Aidan O'Brien by phone in Ireland, and he said that Await The Dawn is fine now, and has begun light exercise running again. The American racing channels are keeping a close watch on Await The Dawn this year, because he's considered a big threat to beat the American horses in the Classic. I saw where Pour Moi got retired due to injury. That's a real shame. Wanted to see him in the Arc.

[rcschumann]

@GBeret83 Await The Dawn has a good chance to do what his sire very nearly did in 2000 at the Classic - GC came the closest to landing the Classic on dirt since '93, along with Sakhee a year later. Of course, they both came across a veritable monster on this surface. Await The Dawn doesn't have the background for success on dirt, but he certainly has the pedigree. The Travers tonight may give more of an idea of which 3 yr old is the best US hope, in addition to older champ Tizway.

[GBeret83]

@rcschumann, Finally, someone who thinks the same way I do about Await The Dawn and his chances in the Breeders Cup Classic this year!! I totally agree that Await The Dawn's pedigree suggest that he could be just as good on conventional dirt as he's been on turf. His dam is Valentine Band, out of Dixieland Band, who was a great dirt horse himself. Stay Thirsty was much the best in the Travers, and IMO, is now the #1 contender among the American horses for the Classic. But ATD can beat him, IMO.

[rcschumann]

@GBeret83 I agree that Stay Thirsty is now the no.1 US hope for the Classic, with Tizway a close 2nd. He proved himself at 10f in such emphatic fashion, and its good he has that 2nd at Belmont on the slop, because, like you said on the other thread, 1 1/4 mile at CD is possibly more demanding than at Saratoga, and he's proved his stamina. Await The Dawn is of course a specialist at middle distance, and should be a contender at the Classic.

[GBeret83]

@rcschumann, I think you're spot on there. I also believe that Tizway looks the best among the older American horses. But his ability to stay 10f with enough effectiveness to win the Classic is very much in question? The only time Tizway has ever raced over 1-1/4 in his career was in the 09' Jockey Club Gold Cup, and he was beaten about 5-1/2 or 6 lengths by Summer Bird and Quality Road into 3rd. I'd say Tizway will run in the Classic. But would likely be better suited by the Dirt Mile, IMO.

[GBeret83]

@rcschumann, I think you're spot on there. I also believe that Tizway looks the best among the older American horses. But his ability to stay 10f with enough effectiveness to win the Classic is very much in question? The only time Tizway has ever raced over 1-1/4 in his career was in the 09' Jockey Club Gold Cup, and he was beaten about 5-1/2 or 6 lengths by Summer Bird and Quality Road into 3rd. I'd say Tizway will run in the Classic. But would likely be better suited by the Dirt Mile, IMO.

[GBeret83]

@rcschumann, I think you're spot on there. Tizway looks best among the older American horses. But his ability to run 10f effectively enough to win the Classic is very much in question? His only try at 10f was the 09' JCGC, and he ended up 3rd, about 6 lengths behind Summer Bird and about 5 lengths behind Quality Road in that race. I think Tizway's connections will likely try him in the Classic. But I believe he'd be better suited for the Dirt Mile. JMO.

[Bukattingi1]

This result surprised me, I had thought Await The Dawn was top class.

[GBeret83]

@Bukattingi1, the result surprised me quite a bit, also. I still think Await The Dawn is a top class horse. He just wasn't at his best, for whatever reason, today. But I do think he'll eventually prove just how good he really is in G1 company at some point, and soon. His pedigree suggest that he'll go really well on conventional dirt if he run's in the Breeders Cup Classic? And if he does? He's a street better than anything coming to the Classic from America, IMO.

[Bukattingi1]

@GBeret83 It's been my opnion that O' Brien is the best trainer in this part of the world that there has ever been, at least in my memory. He doesn't seem to peak his horses once or twice a year but to improve them throughout ( Dylan Thomas, Giants Causeway ) on that basis I really don't think you can forgive a slip like this, from the horse. I don't he'll redeem himself. I thought he was a good thing for the the Breeder's Cup now I see him as a 'no hoper.'

[GBeret83]

@Bukattingi1, I completely agree with you about Aidan O'Brien being as good of a trainer as there is anywhere in Europe, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. I won't say that you're wrong about Await The Dawn? Only time will time will tell. But I certainly hope you turn out to be wrong? I really like this horse, a lot. Still very lightly raced, a world of potential, and I love his pedigree. Sired by Giant's Causeway out of the Dixieland Band mare, Valentine Band.

[SoulSurvivor79]

Await The Dawn really ran a mediocre race. I thought he would really step up and go to the next level and win his first g1. Maybe he needed a longer distance. This was a totally different horse to the one that won the Hardwicke stakes. He was gone 4f out. So You Think should of been in this race it would of really suited him.

[rcschumann]

Twice Over showed he's on par with the best in the world with that fantastic win, beating out the two favorites, Midday and Await The Dawn, and showing superb closing speed. At 6 yrs old, that's not too shabby!

[hamish1314]

@rcschumann Magic result..................got me a nice payout,thanks for the upload,you got any thoughts on his son riding the ballydoye 1st choice entries.

[GBeret83]

@rcschumann, One thing's for sure. Twice Over really seems to handle the surface at York quite well. He was much the best last month there in the G2 Sky Bet York Stakes, and it took Rip Van Winkle basically mugging him right on the wire in this race last year, or he'd be a dual winner of this race, also. My biggest knock on Twice Over is his inconsistency. He looked horrid in the DWC, the Lockinge,and the Prince of Wales. But when he's on, you still can't ever completely count him out.