see, star wars is a bad example if you want to talk about uncreative plagiarizing, because like others have said, it was completely intentional to make the score uncannily similar to mars and the like because the star wars movies were supposed to remind people of the early action-adventure serials that would show on tv when tv was like a newborn baby-- in those campy serials the background music would have BEEN holst and stravinsky and such, to make for less work and less copyright stuff
@HikariPickles the point is to show that, if Zimmer was sued for plagiarism, there were countless other examples, including Star Wars, that could be sued as well
Omg, when you showed that part that was similar in Deep Blue Sea and Shrek, you should have also taken the part of Sixth Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger that is damn near identical to Deep Blue Sea.
I'm fairly certain that Lucas instructed Williams to write Star Wars based closely on the temp tracks, which was mostly Korngold, Stravinsky, and Holst. What I like about John Williams though is that he makes his score sound original at the same time. Yes there are similarities, but, there are only maybe a few bars of 'The Planets' that make me think of Star Wars. Most of the time it sounds quite different.
@JairCrawford As much as it hurt me when I found out... John Williams as heavily "borrowed" ALOT from old composers especially Dvorak's No. 9 New World Symphony... come on... Jaws much? haha To the fullest, combine that with one of the movements of Rite of Spring and there is the complete Jaws score ;) I cried when i found out haha
@clix411 lol Well the Jaws main theme is a two note ostinato. There are a LOT of two note ostinatos out there. lol What I mean is, John Williams has written so much music. I think you'll find the majority of his music is quite original. It's just, some of his most famous scores are among his less original works. Like the original Star Wars and Jaws.
I have to say, i dont think the count of monte cristo and prirates of the caribbean are similar. They are totally different. Just because they are by the same people and the same instrument it doesn't make them the same. It's a wonderful instrument, the cello is. Why shouldn't they use it again?
@johnnydeppzls actually, they are not from the same people. the similarities are in the rythm and general tone, with the melody also sharing some notes. But, sure, the sound is not a direct rip-off. It's just a case of temp tracking.
@unemployedcomposer True, the Dracula is similar but a different rhythm and the Quick and the Dead one is very similar. But I have figured out what it was and it was a lot more geeky and less intellectual than all this! LOL. It's from the finale of an old computer game called Quest for Glory 3. I think I put this together with the Dracula main titles theme in my head and mixed it all up together. ;) I found it on a video here but I don't think Youtube will allow me to post the link... :(
Oh, that Holst bit at 3:10 has been used somewhere else and it's really bugging me because I can't figure out where I've heard it before. I'm thinking one of the Dracula movies, but I'm not sure. Going to have to go away and think about it for a bit. I'm sure it'll pop into my mind sooner or later. LOL
Accusing film composers of plagiarizing great musicians is like accusing video game and comic book makers of ripping off ideas from literature and mythology.
Your drawing a very long bow with a lot of these, most of them hardly last two bars, or the duration of the whole melody. While a lot may be inspired the earlier works, a lot of the things you're saying rip offs are really just cliches. But to show that I'm not a troll, check out Dvoraks New World Symphony and be shocked to hear plain as day the Jaws theme and the theme for the Star Wars prequels. The Star Wars one is like he just ripped out whole pages from Dvoraks score.
@Cybermotron Hmmmm... what Star Wars theme are you talking about? I swear to God, I haven't noticed that one. Do you mean the Force theme? Because that one is quite similar. I didn't remember it until now. Thanks for the info.
I wouldn't include half of these as rip-offs. There is a difference between ripping off and the fact that Hollywood generally uses sounds that are written for the most basic of instincts, hence the simple melodies for 'tension', 'sadness', 'war' and so on. I could see in each melody why you thought it was a rip-off, but where's the line when all of them are simplistic? And you only focused on the similarities between them, not differences. Great job though, thanks for pointing it out!
You should've put one of the themes of the sixth day with Arnold Schwarzenegger where Trevor Rabin uses a very similar melody and instruments to Deep Blue Sea. They would've gone great together back to back.
@RichardKleiner Here's a link where you can hear what I'm talking about. Now listen to this song and tells me it doesn't remind you of Deep Blue Sea! Also Armageddon. watch?v=EmPwjX_FL70
Holst himself is clearly heavily 'influenced' by earlier composers. The difference is his music was freshly composed, whereas the Hollywood versions are just too similar.
Fun as these vids may be to watch/listen to. Nothing is Original anymore, there's simply too much music made over the century's to be so. Unless you have something like Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima. But i'm actually hesitant to call that music.. Intriguing as it may sound.
I'm trying to figure out why people are surprised that a composer used a composition for a planet named after the Roman god of war...for a movie about a Roman warrior. Do you really think that wasn't purposeful?
@jazzthieve1 Excuse me, with 15 years in the music industry under my belt, please don't insult me by saying I can't recognise the similarities, of course they're similar. I just choose not to call them rip-offs. You mean to suggest that everyone who has ever used a 6-2-5-1 progression after the first usage owes the inital composer some kind of credit? Such pedantry is naive; I repeat, there is nothing new under the sun. Exact replicas are a different story, but similarities are subjective.
There is nothing new under the sun. To make a legal claim over 'similarities' such as these is completely ludicrous. Holst was the last person to ever be allowed to write a chromatic, rambling theme? Please...
I guess a lot of the same progressions are used because they evoke a certain feeling a composer wants to tap into. The repeats are just kind of filler I think, as film composers are time-wise quite tightly pressed to come up with music to cover and synchronize with the entire film. Not feeling too inspired? Next film coming up in your agenda? Hey, maybe just borrow a few bits and pieces... ;) One of the side effects of commercializing music. :P
when you think about it, star wars and Mars, were sorta different. i mean i understand completley how you caught that, but i also understand how john williams was thinking well making that scpre
Well i kinda have to protect the composers to a certain degree. I "compose" myself (on my PC^^). And it is hard not to rip off stuff you've heard before and come up with something completely original, because that is nowadays more or less impossible in all types of music. Try to make a unique and original drum beat, you must and will fail.
Some of those comparisons should put the artists to shame (Horner for instance) but they surely are not all intentional. But it is interesting indeed.
The reaso for Star Wars sounding the same is the temp track that was used! It's only a few beats here and there and you can't copyright a beat. If you could Williams would also have been sued by Holst's publishers and he wasn't!
Check out the "making of" shorts for Star Trek 6. The director originally wanted to use 'The Planets' as the score but it would have been too costly. So he chose a composer (Cliff Edelman) who had actually done his dissertation on 'The Planets' and instructed him to compose something similar with touches of The Firebird.
Finally, someone else like me. Perfect, well done! I was just saying something about this guy (you) should try some James Horner stuff, and then it popped up as if on cue!His on rip off shite is what got me started in listening to scores in the first place. You could devote a Whole video to just James Horner! Again well done!!!
"Gothic Power" is a rip-off of a small cue from Broken Arrow (2min into track 2). I'm surprised with Van Helsing in there (Vampire themed), you didn't catch "Bram Stoker's Dracula - Vampire Hunters" in Pirates (last minute of "Underwater March", likely homage). I don't mind them ripping off, i just have to know what it is when I recognize it...
Its sad yes... but expected. It always goes with music ... name a band and they will sound something similar to others.
Its always been this way, and always will be. I think it happens so much with Movie Scores because the composers HAVE to make music for the film because it is there job... So they tend do compose in the same category for let;s say an Action scene.
If the composers just could Compose ... ( and not worrying about money :P ) than there would be allot more of original scores ^^
Do the newest james horner rip off...listen to jakes first flight from avatar. I bet you'll like the similarities to it and the theme from glory. Its exactly the same lol.
That is correct. The real reason of this video is for the Holst Foundation's really unnecessary law suit to Hans Zimmer. I think Tyler Bate's plagiarism of Elliot Goldenthal is far more legal action worthy.
I've heard Holst in countless soundtracks. My friend and I once listened to Mars, Bringer of War and found at least 2-3 "soundtracks" in it. Superman theme by Williams was one of them.
Holst is definitely a major influence for all film composers. A list of 5 classical/romantic pieces film music is most inspired by would run something like this:
1. O Fortuna (Carl Orff)
2. Mars (Holst). Btw Braveheart copies Jupiter !!!
Yes, but it's the same exact chord (open 5th with added 2nd, I think), repeated in the same pounding, unpredictable way, on pretty much the same exact instruments. I think Williams definitely had Holst in mind when he wrote that passage.
its like a whole prase. It also happens to consistantly, that is his music sounding almost exactly like another composer, just to be insperation. He literally take mabey 20-30 bars out of a peice and "arranges" it and stickes it back in his music.
Muchas de esas similitudes no son plagios. Por ejemplo lo de John Williams y Gustav Holst es claramente una coincidencia (no es mas que la repetición de un único acorde).
The first John Williams / Gustav Holst similarity was just coincidence (it was only ONE REPEATED CHORD).
It seems that Horner is the biggest mail it in movie composer ever
navyk77 23 hours ago
only so many ways to create moods with scales...some are quite uncanny though but then again every nickel back song sounds about the sounds
antmaneraser 2 weeks ago
see, star wars is a bad example if you want to talk about uncreative plagiarizing, because like others have said, it was completely intentional to make the score uncannily similar to mars and the like because the star wars movies were supposed to remind people of the early action-adventure serials that would show on tv when tv was like a newborn baby-- in those campy serials the background music would have BEEN holst and stravinsky and such, to make for less work and less copyright stuff
HikariPickles 2 months ago
@HikariPickles the point is to show that, if Zimmer was sued for plagiarism, there were countless other examples, including Star Wars, that could be sued as well
RichardKleiner 2 months ago
Omg, when you showed that part that was similar in Deep Blue Sea and Shrek, you should have also taken the part of Sixth Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger that is damn near identical to Deep Blue Sea.
WolfySnackrib666 4 months ago
Braveheart theme and Bicentennial Man theme by James Horner is the most unbelievable self rip-off theme EVER.
23WhiteFlag 4 months ago
hey! this was a very good video and exactly what i was looking for... irrefutable evidence of plagiarism by JW
rapidpossumsex 4 months ago
I'm fairly certain that Lucas instructed Williams to write Star Wars based closely on the temp tracks, which was mostly Korngold, Stravinsky, and Holst. What I like about John Williams though is that he makes his score sound original at the same time. Yes there are similarities, but, there are only maybe a few bars of 'The Planets' that make me think of Star Wars. Most of the time it sounds quite different.
JairCrawford 5 months ago
@JairCrawford true. It's a known fact that JW never listens to the temp track, and the only time he did was, you guessed it, Star Wars.
RichardKleiner 5 months ago
@JairCrawford As much as it hurt me when I found out... John Williams as heavily "borrowed" ALOT from old composers especially Dvorak's No. 9 New World Symphony... come on... Jaws much? haha To the fullest, combine that with one of the movements of Rite of Spring and there is the complete Jaws score ;) I cried when i found out haha
clix411 3 months ago
@clix411 lol Well the Jaws main theme is a two note ostinato. There are a LOT of two note ostinatos out there. lol What I mean is, John Williams has written so much music. I think you'll find the majority of his music is quite original. It's just, some of his most famous scores are among his less original works. Like the original Star Wars and Jaws.
JairCrawford 3 months ago
Hi; what's the Stravinsky piece before the Dark City clip? Also the Rite of Spring?
ribsngibs 6 months ago
@ribsngibs that is correct. The movement is Evocation of the Ancestors.
RichardKleiner 6 months ago
I have to say, i dont think the count of monte cristo and prirates of the caribbean are similar. They are totally different. Just because they are by the same people and the same instrument it doesn't make them the same. It's a wonderful instrument, the cello is. Why shouldn't they use it again?
johnnydeppzls 7 months ago
@johnnydeppzls actually, they are not from the same people. the similarities are in the rythm and general tone, with the melody also sharing some notes. But, sure, the sound is not a direct rip-off. It's just a case of temp tracking.
RichardKleiner 7 months ago
@unemployedcomposer True, the Dracula is similar but a different rhythm and the Quick and the Dead one is very similar. But I have figured out what it was and it was a lot more geeky and less intellectual than all this! LOL. It's from the finale of an old computer game called Quest for Glory 3. I think I put this together with the Dracula main titles theme in my head and mixed it all up together. ;) I found it on a video here but I don't think Youtube will allow me to post the link... :(
misswedders 8 months ago
No!, John Williams, no!
fr4nbl 9 months ago
Oh, that Holst bit at 3:10 has been used somewhere else and it's really bugging me because I can't figure out where I've heard it before. I'm thinking one of the Dracula movies, but I'm not sure. Going to have to go away and think about it for a bit. I'm sure it'll pop into my mind sooner or later. LOL
misswedders 9 months ago
Accusing film composers of plagiarizing great musicians is like accusing video game and comic book makers of ripping off ideas from literature and mythology.
volantera 10 months ago
@volantera Yeah, we know. Let's move on, shall we?
RichardKleiner 10 months ago
@volantera Ummm, no...no it isn't....lmao
navyk77 23 hours ago
@navyk77 Ummm, yes.. yes it is. It's just watered down versions of older stuff.
volantera 22 hours ago
Horner quotes RV Williams' Thomas Tallis Variation in Glory as well
dannthr 10 months ago
Your drawing a very long bow with a lot of these, most of them hardly last two bars, or the duration of the whole melody. While a lot may be inspired the earlier works, a lot of the things you're saying rip offs are really just cliches. But to show that I'm not a troll, check out Dvoraks New World Symphony and be shocked to hear plain as day the Jaws theme and the theme for the Star Wars prequels. The Star Wars one is like he just ripped out whole pages from Dvoraks score.
Cybermotron 10 months ago
@Cybermotron Hmmmm... what Star Wars theme are you talking about? I swear to God, I haven't noticed that one. Do you mean the Force theme? Because that one is quite similar. I didn't remember it until now. Thanks for the info.
RichardKleiner 10 months ago
@Cybermotron Listen to Ernest Korngold. In his music, you will hear the "Star Wars" theme and others.
peppersax 7 months ago
the imperial march sounds a heck of alot like Chopins funeral march too.
bluebunny61 11 months ago
So Hans Zimmer got sued but not John Williams....interesting.
I can't hear "Mars" without thinking of Star Wars!
GlenBird 11 months ago
@GlenBird I know. Quite unfair. The lesson is if you're admired by the experts in music, you can get away with anything.
RichardKleiner 11 months ago
I wouldn't include half of these as rip-offs. There is a difference between ripping off and the fact that Hollywood generally uses sounds that are written for the most basic of instincts, hence the simple melodies for 'tension', 'sadness', 'war' and so on. I could see in each melody why you thought it was a rip-off, but where's the line when all of them are simplistic? And you only focused on the similarities between them, not differences. Great job though, thanks for pointing it out!
gloopzik 11 months ago
great work !
Brackhmmarr 11 months ago
You should've put one of the themes of the sixth day with Arnold Schwarzenegger where Trevor Rabin uses a very similar melody and instruments to Deep Blue Sea. They would've gone great together back to back.
WolfySnackrib666 1 year ago
@WolfySnackrib666 Oh, darn. I haven't heard Sixth Day. It would have been interesting.
RichardKleiner 1 year ago
@RichardKleiner Here's a link where you can hear what I'm talking about. Now listen to this song and tells me it doesn't remind you of Deep Blue Sea! Also Armageddon. watch?v=EmPwjX_FL70
WolfySnackrib666 1 year ago
@WolfySnackrib666 yup. not surprised. I'll probably add that in the future.
RichardKleiner 1 year ago
Holst himself is clearly heavily 'influenced' by earlier composers. The difference is his music was freshly composed, whereas the Hollywood versions are just too similar.
Architectonic01 1 year ago
Fun as these vids may be to watch/listen to. Nothing is Original anymore, there's simply too much music made over the century's to be so. Unless you have something like Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima. But i'm actually hesitant to call that music.. Intriguing as it may sound.
SharpWalkers 1 year ago
@SharpWalkers unfortunately, it is so true.
RichardKleiner 1 year ago
funny thing is that probably the "classical" ones copied from former... xD
it is Einstein after all who claimed he was "standing on the shoulders of giants"
Wakipenda 1 year ago
I'm trying to figure out why people are surprised that a composer used a composition for a planet named after the Roman god of war...for a movie about a Roman warrior. Do you really think that wasn't purposeful?
arrogancy 1 year ago 9
Look how pissed off Stravinsky is.
SDKfilmproduction 1 year ago
@jazzthieve1 Excuse me, with 15 years in the music industry under my belt, please don't insult me by saying I can't recognise the similarities, of course they're similar. I just choose not to call them rip-offs. You mean to suggest that everyone who has ever used a 6-2-5-1 progression after the first usage owes the inital composer some kind of credit? Such pedantry is naive; I repeat, there is nothing new under the sun. Exact replicas are a different story, but similarities are subjective.
awkwardbarry 1 year ago
Wow, the Star Wars one was close.
MichaelJacksonFan000 1 year ago
The shrek cue is more epic than the deep blue sea one!
raymondleeleggs 1 year ago
There is nothing new under the sun. To make a legal claim over 'similarities' such as these is completely ludicrous. Holst was the last person to ever be allowed to write a chromatic, rambling theme? Please...
awkwardbarry 1 year ago
there are oly a limited number of notes and chord progressions, so of course there will be a LOT of repeats!
raymondleeleggs 1 year ago
@raymondleeleggs
I guess a lot of the same progressions are used because they evoke a certain feeling a composer wants to tap into. The repeats are just kind of filler I think, as film composers are time-wise quite tightly pressed to come up with music to cover and synchronize with the entire film. Not feeling too inspired? Next film coming up in your agenda? Hey, maybe just borrow a few bits and pieces... ;) One of the side effects of commercializing music. :P
arhainofulthuan 1 year ago
when you think about it, star wars and Mars, were sorta different. i mean i understand completley how you caught that, but i also understand how john williams was thinking well making that scpre
stawaz 1 year ago
Well i kinda have to protect the composers to a certain degree. I "compose" myself (on my PC^^). And it is hard not to rip off stuff you've heard before and come up with something completely original, because that is nowadays more or less impossible in all types of music. Try to make a unique and original drum beat, you must and will fail.
Some of those comparisons should put the artists to shame (Horner for instance) but they surely are not all intentional. But it is interesting indeed.
catburglar82 1 year ago
The reaso for Star Wars sounding the same is the temp track that was used! It's only a few beats here and there and you can't copyright a beat. If you could Williams would also have been sued by Holst's publishers and he wasn't!
horror1057 1 year ago
If you listen to Gladiator, the similarities are in the progression in the notes, and you can't copyright that either.
RichardKleiner 1 year ago
Dark City is such a much more badass version!
WolfySnackrib666 1 year ago
Check out the "making of" shorts for Star Trek 6. The director originally wanted to use 'The Planets' as the score but it would have been too costly. So he chose a composer (Cliff Edelman) who had actually done his dissertation on 'The Planets' and instructed him to compose something similar with touches of The Firebird.
CambotSOL 2 years ago
Finally, someone else like me. Perfect, well done! I was just saying something about this guy (you) should try some James Horner stuff, and then it popped up as if on cue!His on rip off shite is what got me started in listening to scores in the first place. You could devote a Whole video to just James Horner! Again well done!!!
thirdmanj 2 years ago
"Gothic Power" is a rip-off of a small cue from Broken Arrow (2min into track 2). I'm surprised with Van Helsing in there (Vampire themed), you didn't catch "Bram Stoker's Dracula - Vampire Hunters" in Pirates (last minute of "Underwater March", likely homage). I don't mind them ripping off, i just have to know what it is when I recognize it...
MovieMongerHZ 2 years ago
I didn't notice Dracula on PotC but I did notice a theme from the VG Left Behind: Eternal Forces and it has the same victorious theme from Pirates.
RichardKleiner 2 years ago
Its sad yes... but expected. It always goes with music ... name a band and they will sound something similar to others.
Its always been this way, and always will be. I think it happens so much with Movie Scores because the composers HAVE to make music for the film because it is there job... So they tend do compose in the same category for let;s say an Action scene.
If the composers just could Compose ... ( and not worrying about money :P ) than there would be allot more of original scores ^^
RemovdSande11 2 years ago
Do the newest james horner rip off...listen to jakes first flight from avatar. I bet you'll like the similarities to it and the theme from glory. Its exactly the same lol.
cspace11 2 years ago
I don't have "The Quick and the Dead", but thanks for the info!
RichardKleiner 2 years ago
That is correct. The real reason of this video is for the Holst Foundation's really unnecessary law suit to Hans Zimmer. I think Tyler Bate's plagiarism of Elliot Goldenthal is far more legal action worthy.
RichardKleiner 2 years ago
I've heard Holst in countless soundtracks. My friend and I once listened to Mars, Bringer of War and found at least 2-3 "soundtracks" in it. Superman theme by Williams was one of them.
piterdevries 2 years ago
The point is the Holst foundation should sue John Williams and countless others if they're so worried about plagiarism.
RichardKleiner 2 years ago
Holst is definitely a major influence for all film composers. A list of 5 classical/romantic pieces film music is most inspired by would run something like this:
1. O Fortuna (Carl Orff)
2. Mars (Holst). Btw Braveheart copies Jupiter !!!
3. The Rite of Spring (Stravinsky)
4. Ride of the Valkyries (Wagner)
5. Hall of the Mountain King (Grieg)
JoeSnyderwalk 2 years ago 2
I'm talking about the one in 1:14.
This part is not a melody, it's just a chord.
poliquasar 2 years ago
Yes, but it's the same exact chord (open 5th with added 2nd, I think), repeated in the same pounding, unpredictable way, on pretty much the same exact instruments. I think Williams definitely had Holst in mind when he wrote that passage.
JoeSnyderwalk 2 years ago
can't copyright chords. lyrics and/or melody.
dbowers409 2 years ago
I suppose not, but it´s still interesting to see it done...
JoeSnyderwalk 2 years ago
its like a whole prase. It also happens to consistantly, that is his music sounding almost exactly like another composer, just to be insperation. He literally take mabey 20-30 bars out of a peice and "arranges" it and stickes it back in his music.
Noobie008 2 years ago
Muchas de esas similitudes no son plagios. Por ejemplo lo de John Williams y Gustav Holst es claramente una coincidencia (no es mas que la repetición de un único acorde).
The first John Williams / Gustav Holst similarity was just coincidence (it was only ONE REPEATED CHORD).
poliquasar 2 years ago
Yes, another one of these :) love 'em! Film scores forever, indeed.
JoeSnyderwalk 2 years ago 6
interesante, jaja esta chido
rbert87 2 years ago
No manches ke buen oido tienes jejeje, sigue con estos videos!!!
Bfett619 2 years ago