Danedream was impressive winning the Arc. But was made to look pretty ordinary by Buena Vista in the Japan Cup. 3 years in a row, the Euro's have sent over some decent horses, and none have fared particularly well. Conduit was best with a 4th in 09'. Last year saw Cirrus Des Aigles run 9th, Joshua Tree 10th, and Dandino 11th. Now this year, it was Danedream finishing 6th, Shareta 7th, and Sarah Lynx 12th. Not really the kind of finishes you'd expect to see out of horses of this caliber, IMO.
@GBeret83 I suspect that traveling great distances not knowing where you are going is way more traumatic for horses than humans. It seems to me that most of the great horses rarely competed outside their home continent. I will remember Danedream's win in the Arc long after the memory of the Japan Cup has faded.
What a great horse. Has to be one of the best ever. This animal absolutely played with this field. Lucas Cranach was third in the cup this year like So You Think last year. It has been a year for the fillies, and Havre de Grace is maybe the one to cap it off.
Right its obvious after today SYT is not a great after yet another loss, but I sure do respect the hell out of it with all its desire and effort to win races, even though I do downbeat on its performance it'd only cause of the utter ignorance of the Australians, cannot fault the bravery of the horse though.
@drofheim SYT was within 1/2l of snow fairy for the third time now. People can stop making excuses now that he's some kind of wonder horse who has been under some bad rides. Not top drawer stuff evidently. Frankel on the other hand ... 4th highest rated flat horse in history. Well done Mr. Cecil. Enjoy it.
@Nautilus1972 Give him back to Bart Cummings and you will see what a master trainer can do with the kind of talent SYT has. We are appalled by the dreadful deal he has received from Coolmore. This is a horse capable of G1 sprints and staying two miles, and the buffoons haveraced him underprepared (PoW), or set him a murderous itinery. Racing him on dirt was the last folly. I would love to corner the Mighty Bart to get his private view of this appalling deconstruction of a champion.
@drofheim It was a terrific run by SYT you racist meathead. Have another look. He has almost dropped to last approaching the turn (12 lens from the lead). He has about three behind him as they staighten (9 lens), his rider searching for a way through the traffic. Then he lets him go and he begins to lengthen, he finds a gap but has to be steadied before he starts taking ground from horses about to run past him. SYT was set an impossible task here.
Saw So you think in paddock and was best looker in field - but he hard a hard race there making up all that ground - can't see how he'll be ready for Ascot - looks out the places for me, well remember the stupid races they sent Dylan Thomas after his Arc, they over race them at end of season.
I am not arrogant, its all you lot making excuses and telling us how great your horses are, I'm just sick of it, I accept defeat if our horses lose, you all cry and make excuses all the time, SYT is not and will not be the best horse that ever lived, deal with it.
It's likely the partial Japanese ownership played a large role in the decision to skip the Breeders Cup in favor of the Japan Cup with Danedream. But I still think she'd stand a better shot of getting a piece of the BC Turf's $3 million or the F&M Turf's $2 million than she'll stand at getting a piece of the Japan Cup. Euro horses haven't done that well in the race over the past few seasons. Purple Moon 9th in 08', Conduit 4th in 09', Cirrus Des Aigles 9th, Joshua Tree 10th, Dandino 11th in 10'.
Congrats to the filly...but So You think..wow, what a run. Ride him a tad closer and he wins this as easily as the filly did. Saying all that and chamnging the subject, wait until the world sees Black Caviar in Europe. It will be embarrassing for European breeding when she explodes.
FFS O'Brien, did you watch a race of SYT's in Australia? Sit him in front of the pack behind the pacemaker (unbelievable that you'd train a horse just to be a bunny in the first place) and he'll win by 10L just from raw pace.
He's not the same horse that much is clear but he's finding his feet.
@drofheim Silly question if you think about it. 19 of the last 30 winners have been 3 year olds. Bart would have to win the race with a 2 year old weighted as a 3 year old. 9 of the remaining 11 winners were 4 year olds. Bart would have to win the race with a 3 year old, weighted as a 4 yo. Winning the Arc, which is worth less prizemoney doesn't, under those conditions, look too attractive.
Anything with Sadlers Wells in the pedigree dont usually go on dirt, they are bred for turf, if you look at the European horses that have done well at done well at the Classic , Henrythenavigator, Ravens Pass, Sakhee, Giants Causeway, all camr
Amazing, just amazing. You have to really wonder about these European trainers thinking. So You Think is set to run "just 13 days" after the Arc race. O'Brien is in two minds, worried if that's "too soon", but also saying "if it were up to him he'd run the horse every week, his constitution is amazing". Really? Finally the penny has dropped. Racehorses need to race, not be on the training track shadow boxing. Gunsynd, in the spring of 1972, raced 10 times in 12 weeks for 4 wins, 2 2nds & 3 3rds
@Racehorsewatcher Yes. Especially a powerfully built fellow like SYT. He ran the 2 miles of the Cup 4 days after the Mackinnon Stakes and looked the winner at the 2f post. He will win the Champion Stakes, provided Seamus gets him close enough and doesn't go too early. I think the stable have just begun to understand this horse in the way the mighty Bart did. Too much confidence in the PoW, not enough in the Arc. Now we should see him at his best.
So You Think races next Saturday in the Champion Stakes where he faces Arc 15th Reliable Man who will perform better if the bad weather continues and Nathaniel who beat, Workforce, SYT biggest challenger tho could be the undefeated Dubai Prince, So You Think will also contest the BC Classic but he has slim to no chance, can't think of one Sadlers Wells sons or grandsons ever performing on dirt.
@drofheim I don't like him on dirt either, Dofheim, but you'd think they wouldnlt take him if he had no chance. Its a long way over the Atlantic. Have you hear whether Danedream is going to the Breeder's Classic or the Distaff race?
@drofheim Twice Over is flying on the gallops and comes to hand this time of year, he'll be hard to beat in the champion stakes and will be fresher than the arc also rans
What a little "outclassed" , German group type non-entity. All the experts had their say...Myself and friends had a small investement at 25/1 When you watch her pulverising performances in Germany , Group 1 races , I am sick that I only bet a tiny amount on this ..."wonder horse"... As they are now calling her...
@charliemctruth There are four things that tells us she is an exceptional filly: she can win on very soft tracks and very firm tracks at G1 level; she can run super fast time off a fast early pace; she has beaten the best turf field that could have been assembled by a big margin; and she has exceptional acceleration. With those attributes in abundance, she could become one of the greatest of all time.
@drofheim The winner in those didn't run 2m 24.5. All those mentioned raced on rain affected tracks and came from favourable barrier draws: Zarkava (1), Montjeu (4), Workforce (8), Lammtarra (7) and Dylan Thomas (6). They were all 3yos, with the exception of Dylan Thomas, so lightly weighted. Only 5 horses older than 4 have ever won the race in 89 runnings. Only three 3yo winners have come back at 4 and won it, including two all time greats. That tells us something about the WFA scale.
@SvendBosanvovski it favours the older horses earlier in the season in races like the king george and eclipse though, so the older horses have the early advantage but it evaporates as the 3 year olds grow in size and experience during the season
@john131349 6lb and 11lb in the Arc is a huge pull in the weights when asked to carry 9st 5lb. Star Witness and Choisir were 3yos here, but ask to carry 7lb to 8lb more than your 3yos when they raced in the UK. That's about 3 lens. They use a split table in the USA to make it fair. Star Witness would have won both the King Stand (lost a head) and The Golden Jubilee (lost 3/4 len) using the US scale. Scary to think he received 11lb from BC when she beat him by 7.8 lens eased up!
@Racehorsewatcher It was the Betfair Australian horseracing forum. I think the title was SYT's done Australasia proud the same can't be said for Workforce from memory.
I cannot understand how a horse is to be set for such a major race like the Arc, having run only once in three months, basically second up for a feature race. Horses need to be race hardened, just like any athlete or sports person. There's a world of difference between training on a track and competing in a proper race. There's no way J B Cumming's would have had such a preparation for the horse for the Arc. He would have built the horse up with 2 -3 hard races in the six weeks prior.
@Racehorsewatcher I came across the champs closing sectionals on a horse racing forum. But in saying that another person stated SYT ran the last 5f in 57.10.
@SoulSurvivor79 Do you have a link to that forum? It's curious that those who've only seen SYT race in Europe (where to me he has never looked the same horse - just does not look fit) rather than listen to others who have seen him race in Aus and consider there might be something in what is being said, simply dismiss it as sour grapes. The fact that enough people have said there's something odd, should at least alert an objective observer to the possibility that they might have something to say.
SYT was ridden upside down . He has proved that he has a high cruising speed and can when allowed to run along freely accelerate at the end . He should have been running where St Nic Abby was
Geez if they finally run out of steam for their horses, they turn to jockeys, Hugh Bowman was over in UK for half the flat season and he was good but just as good as the other top jockeys, Kerrin McEvoy also just the same, if you're good jockey you're a good jockey, doesn't matter about country. Best jockey is Irish anyway, aussies are unbelievable.
I don't know what it is about European and British racing, but it is impossible for the punter to get any information about the races. No sectional times, no published steward reports or race footage of the kind we have in OZ. There were 33 camera located around the course when Might and Power won the Cup, and a dolly camera following by the side of the runners. All metropolitan races have detailed stewards reports, and penetrometer reading of the track.
@SvendBosanvovski It's because it's not as professional as it should be or as Europeans like to think it is. There is a tradition of horse racing in Europe, but it hasn't become as professional as elsewhere. This is why I was asking @SoulSurvivor79 where he got his sectionals from. Also, this pace setting and team racing is unbelievable - banned in Australia, as it should be. The stewards in the UK are basically voluntary and amateurs. Unlike in Asia where they are licensed professionals.
@Racehorsewatcher This is why our elite jockeys would leave the Brits for dead. They are subject to strict scrutiny at all stages of a race, even overhead cameras from a blimp on big race days in Melbourne. I remember seeing Sky footage of Damian Oliver shifting a mount from the rails to get around a tiring horse, taking a split between two others, swapping his whip hand, applying the persuader to secure control before shifting back to the rails and winning a G1 1200m at Flemington.
@Racehorsewatcher ...And they think we talk up our horses and jockeys up. The ride on SYT would embarrass Darren Beadman or Glen Boss, two of our greatest modern day riders. George Moore, Roy Higgins, Pat Hyland, Shane Dye, Mick Dittman or even the cocky Jimmy Cassidy would never sit back waiting for the field to collapse as Seamus did here. They would be energetically looking for the opportunity to move their mount into a winning position. We see it week in and week out.
Why would Ballydoyle take a horse talented enough to win the Irish Derby, Secretariat Stakes, beat King George winner, Nathaniel, in the Chester Vase, and very nearly won the Epsom Derby, and make a sacrificial lamb out of him as a pacemaker? That's ridiculous. Why not let Treasure Beach try to win the race on his own merits? He's arguably the best middle distance 3yr.old they have in their barn, and he had the 3yr.old weight break. Everyone's always saying how well 3yr.old's fare in the Arc.JMO
@GBeret83 I agree GB. It would be illegal in Australia, where every horse is required to be run on its merit and be given the best chane of winning. It is farcical and unfair to the punter to have a horse you have assessed on past form sacrificed to corporate interest in that way.
@SvendBosanvovski, Still shaking my head about that decision for Treasure Beach? Honestly, of the 3 horses Coolmore had in the race. I think I would've been more likely to use up St Nicholas Abbey as the pacemaker. Since Treasure Beach had the 3yr.old weight for age break, and was already proven in the Irish Derby, Epsom Derby, Secretariat Stakes, and Chester Vase. TJMO.
@GBeret83 Use of pacemakers should be outlawed. We have genuine front runners/ That's their pattern of racing. One of my all time favourites, Vo Rogue was like that. Trainers can couple those with a horse favoured by a strong pace. But any radical change in tactics must be run past the stewards well before the race, and approved. The public then know what they are in for. Any such change will only be permitted if intended to improve that horse's prospects. Would SYT have won without TB.
@SvendBosanvovski I agree with you on the pacemaker matter. For me the biggest issue with it is its akin to throwing the race, IMO anyway. I mean, the job of the pacemaker is ultimately to back up. Why even enter a horse into a race, if you're not going to give them a proper chance at winning. Every horse deserves a chance to win a race, especially a race like the Arc, not be forced to lose. I thought So You Think ran superbly, 3rd last into the straight to get up to 4th, nice run.
You had to be at the front with the pace so strong - if anybody was thinking they would come back they were well wrong - usually they tire at the end but no wind and fast conditions allowed to keep up gallop. Shareta was second best on the day in all senses.
Sorry guys, stop all this guff. In racing all that's important is winning - not whining after losing. So, please give up on lame excuses and telling utter nonsense like "the horse that came in 4th was really the best on the day". If you're a fan of So You Think you might look forward to the Champion Stakes, but don't look back at the Arc. He simply wasn't good enough. It's as easy as that.
Fame And Glory suffered interference from Planteur last year, Sea The Stars won the Arc just after the 2f marker, the distance didn't matter fact is if Youmzain got within 1l Sea The Stars would have went on again, Sea The Stars at Sandown showed he could use a turn of foot twice, only a freak horse could do that. Anymore pathetic put downs?
@drofheim They didn''t run the race in a tick over 2m 24 when STS won. That could very well be the fastest time ever run for the distance anwhere but Japan and the US where they get a run up on fast, flat tracks. Most of the filed ran on merit with their usual racing patters, except SYT. He is a horse that races better just of the pace and could have been there had the jockey used initiative. The theory was to use TB to break the field up, a long run home and use SYT superior speed.
If everyone mentions SYT surely Meandre's run was idenyical, he seemed more unlucky cause SYT and Sarafina squeezed him in, if he got through he'd have finished ahead of SYT.
Worse ride ive ever seen didnt get out properly untill about half way down the straight. But to have it at the rear of th field was a stupid move, better to sit about fifth tracking the leaders. It will win next time though.
If u think SYT was given the worst ride or was the best horse out there, pause at 1:49 and see Sarafina 1/2L behind him and Silver Pond 2L back. Then pause on the line and lo and behold, Sarafina 1/2L down and Silver Pond 2L back. Hmm. Clearly he ran no better than either of those who could equally argue a poor ride. But more realistically, those 3 were drawn 13,14,16 so I would say it was the draw rather than poor jockeyship that saw them so far back.
All credit must go to the winner, that was an exceptional run and win, but the commentator was spot on about So You Think.. 'came from nowhere'. SYT was nowhere due to the deplorable ride he was given, that far back with so much traffic to navigate, he was never going to win that. His best wins have always been on the speed, stalking, or on the lead.
@MrDraven37 SYT ran to his ability - if 0.5L below, but his proximity to rewilding, Twice Over and horses like that marked him out as less than top drawer. The winner has trounced them.
@Nautilus1972 Find one other race in his career where he races near to the rear of the field other than the 5th he ran behind Starspangledbanner in the Caulfield Guineas (8F). Even in relatively large fields he always races on the speed. There's not a horse in the world that could have won from the position he was in at the 3F mark. Taking nothing from the winner... but it was an overly safe ride that gave him no hope of finishing any closer than he did.
@bgardiner2000 Nonehteless, Snow Fairy - whose form is about level with SYT - was unhindered and well beaten. See Irish Champion stakes where she was beaten a neck when getting up on SYT.
Time after time its usually proven you need an instant turn of foot, Danedream shown she had it and even seemed more impressive than Zarkava and Sea The Stars, she put the race to bed that sectionals are laughable excuses, I'm not sure which Australian the Racing Post quoted but he was right what he said, Australians were arrogant about So You Think and overrated him, shame cause he is decent, but when he faces Frankel he will be beaten by five lengths again.
In hind sight, those of us who overlooked Danedream in this race are looking back over the replay and realizing that we just flatly overlooked a damn talented 3yr.old filly. Still, can't help but feeling this was a very odd Arc? Not because that Danedream won the race. But because of the alarmingly high # of "high profile" horses who all apparently waited to choose this race as their worst run of the season. JMO.
@cmcgarth Have you just woken up out of hibination? Just beaten Workforce? What about all the other Euro horses SYT's dealt to this season. From memory he's won 3g1's over in Europe hasn't he? Add another on the 15th to that list if he turns up at ascot.
@cmcgrath Doesn't have the gears? He ran the last 5f in 56.90 and last 3f in 33. Fastest closing sectionals by any horse in the race. Had he drawn an inside barrier run his normal race just behind the leaders been on terms with Danedream at the 3f pole he would of went close to winning the arc.No doubt in my mind.
So You Think wasnt good enough, he might be a champion in Australia, running against trees, but in Europe, all he could beat is an overrated Workforce. He dosent have the gears to win an Arc.
Australia have good sprinters but they dont have good middle distance horses.
He's a very good horse, just not as good as many Australians want him to be. To an Australian he probably is a legendary horse because their 10f+ division is so much weaker than Europe. But we get a few horses of his class in Europe most years - he's more of a Dylan Thomas class animal than a Sea The Stars or Zarkava. With a more prominent ride to offset his lack of acceleration he probably would have been second in the Arc but was never beating the winner......
Who are the fools who think So You Think was unlucky??At no point did he ever close on the winner,who was actually pulling out more at the end and would have won by seven lengths with another furlong.German horses are hardy and tough.Star Appeal was good but Danedream and Acatenango were top drawer.Well Done Deutchland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I too believe SYT trainer and jockey got it wrong but for a different reason. He is a big horse and needs galloping room and doesn't do as well racing inside of other horses. The jockey would have been better off riding wide with cover and let him finish on the outside....but anyway the winner was too good
Having 8-10 races in an entire career, is like winning a couple of grand slam tennis tournaments, or two golf majors, and then saying you're an all time great. Keep playing and beating all comers for a number of years, keeping winning major tournaments, then you can claim to be great.
As for all time great horses. A horse that has only 8 or 10 starts in its whole career, cannot in my view be considered a great horse. This is typical of European horses. A great horse, like a great sports person, needs to take on all comers over several years. Try racing for 4-5 years, 8-10 preparations, 40-50 races, taking on all comers, in all conditions, at a variety of distances, overcoming injuries, making comeback after comeback, then you have a great horse. Very common in Australia.
People argue about SYT(which is warranted because he was ridden HORRIBLY) But how about that Donkey Aiden O'brien using an Irish Classic champion as his pacemaker????. Treasure Beach had a great chance in this race if it wasn't for these insane tactics. Also Galikova who was ridden by Olivier Pelsier, he gave her NO chance to get in this race. He has her buried near the rear on the rail the whole way around....not the first shite ride he gave Freddie Head's horses this year.
Sea The Stars destroyed everything that was put in front of him, put in one of the fastest Eclipses, smashed the track record in the International, he was so good he would probably win a 6f group 1, won at 12f, 10f, 8f, foals are selling at record numbers for first year stallion, Sea The Stars 140 timeform rating, better race record than his brother, the mighty Galileo responsible for some of the best racehorses today, the Urban Sea line of horses are usually exceptional, idiot.
@drofheim Sea the Stars destroyed nobody,he narrowly won most of his races and against average horses to boot,horses that have done nothing since to frank the form
Sea the Stars narrowly beats Fame and Glory in the Irish Champion Stakes and narrowly beats him in the English Derby and the Europeans think he is the greatest thing ever LMAO(Fame and Glory got smashed in the Irish St Leger and also runs in 4000m plodding donkey races against future hurdlers LMAO), not to mention he beat the average Delegator in the Guineas,what has Delegator done since then?
Form around Sea the Stars is simply disgraceful,easily the most overrated horse ever
@debbider - Are you mad??. Mastercraftman, Conduit, Stacelita, Fame and Glory, Youzmain. Not to mention he was banged around down on the rail half the length of the stretch about 10 lengths off the lead.....go learn something Armchair fan.
@TicinoParadise LMAO Stacelita couldn't even win the United Nations in America against there dud turf horses,Youzmain was a non winner for christs sake LMAO,Fame and Glory is running in 4000m races against slow coaches and getting smashed in the Irish St Leger
@debbider Stacelita was given the most horrid ride in the United Nations any one with a brain knows that, and considering that it was her first race on a tight American course she did well. Didn't see u criticize Conduit, or Mastercraftsman???. LMAO Fame and Glory being a multiple GR1 winner, and won the Tattersalls, and Coronation Cup the following year, and let's not forget his GR1 win in the Ascot Gold cup this year. You are an amateur simple as that mate. Keep talking like one.
@debbider - Well the most Overrated horse(as you put) only won the 2000 Guineas, Epsom derby, Irish Champions stakes, Prix L'arc De Triomphe, International Stakes, and the Eclipse stakes as a 3yr old......you and your so called racing knowledge need to go away, and fast before you say something to make yourself look stupid.......oh wait to LATE!
@debbider F&G won his Derby trial by 5L, won the Irish Derby by 5L, is a 5x G1 winner from 10F to 20F, has won a G1 at 11F by 7L. Not a donkey. Delegator was average but STS also beat RVW and Mastercraftsman in the Guineas (and subsequently too) who between them cleaned up the Irish guineas, St James Palace, Sussex and QE2. He smashed Conduit 6 L in the Eclipse who went on to win the KG, then beat him again in the Arc before he won the BC Turf. That my friend is form.
to all the so you think fans i'll just say this the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so you think had his chance on ground he loves to prove himself and he couldn't even get placed in the best middle distance turf race in the world, yeah thats right all you aussies the arc is THE best middle distance turf race in the world not the cox plate as some idiot said and put that crap up as his reason for syt being the best middle distance horse in the world ha ha ha etc...............
@forsoup He beat the best field of 12f horses that could have been assembled anywhere in the world, with the exception of two lightly weighted 3yos and a 4yo mare he had already beaten, notwithstanding the weight difference, a terrible barrier draw and an unimaginative ride. He is on perfromance the best 10f to 12f horse in the world.
@SvendBosanvovski Agreed. As u know I did a fair bit of coin on SYT, but I didn't back him once the barriers were drawn. I think it was a very safe ride from Heffernen. Had he pressed forward at the start & compounded to run near the rear it would have been a poor outcome for Coolmore. At least this way, while not having a realistic winning chance they could still claim he ran creditably, which of course he did. I still think thought that he would have benefitted from BC's way of race training.
@bgardiner2000 BG, you are being very gracious describing it as a “very safe ride”. Can you imagine the great George Moore sitting back in last place on the turn, shifting inside and waiting for the seas to part like Moses at the Red Sea? He would have overcome the bad draw, moving the horse to within striking distance and unleashing the great power we saw on display. This horse ran 1400 in 1m 21 at Randwick. As Dato famously said: " He's a tiger". The best stayer doing the rounds.
@SvendBosanvovski I was trying to be diplomatic. Gambling on European racing can be frustrating in that you often won't know if you're going to ge much of a run for your money. I agree with your assessment of G Moore. At least I would have had a run at a place chance if he wasn't able to outpace the winner, who did win very very well. Luckily I had a few places on Black Caviar today so I made some of my losses back ;)
@bgardiner2000 Yes, you were BG. Cotton Fingers was the greatest jockey I have ever seen. Do you remember his Slipper win on Baguette? I was at the track that day and had a small bet on him, George muscled his way through to win - he knew he was on a champion. From memory I think it was one of the great man's last rides and he wasn't going to finish second being nice to opposing jockeys. That's the kind of jockey we produce here - 'tigers" as Dato would say.
@bgardiner2000 BG, you are being very gracious describing it as a “very safe ride”. Can you imagine the great George Moore sitting back in last place on the turn, shifting inside and waiting for the seas to part like Moses at the Red Sea? He would have overcome the bad draw, moving the horse to within striking distance and unleashing the great power we saw on display. This horse ran 1400 in 1m 21 at Randwick. As Dato famously said: " He's a tiger". The best stayer doing the rounds.
Think it was time I paid tribute to the winner, owners to an expensive gamble to race here and she paid it back with a million quid, she routed them. Looks like either Turf or the Classic?
Zarkava was in the same position as where So You Think was and also she blew the start and still won, Sea The Stars was closer yes but blocked in and also pulled hard, So You Think isn't as good as those aussies think he is, sick of their crying and whinging
Danedream completely destroyed this field! SYT may not have had a great ride, but I doubt he would have won tbh, he may have been closing at the end, but he wasn't 'flying'. He's a very good horse, but not an all time great. JMO though :) Good run from SF too!
@drofhiem Your talking out your arse. Both STS and Zarkava were alot closer than SYT was when entering the straight SYT was ten lengths off the lead coming up to the final turn. If he had drawn a inside barrier and been up near the lead where he normally races he would of went close to winning this race. He had the fastest closing sectionals!
When I saw its wins in Germany I knew she was special, and I invested heavily @ 25/1. It was great listening to the so called "experts " before the race, who completely dismissed her with comments like, "out of her depth" , "plain unpreposing small filly" ! Now with hindsight they say she is the greatest filly EVER ! Oh well, I'm off down to Ladbrokes to collect a huge amount of cash. xx
So much crying and whining, Danedream on another level to SYT, end of, Sea The Stars and Zarkava came of the pace and won cause they were genuine superstars.
Danedream is a dream, she destroyed the field in her last three races and can run on any ground. she was the best horse in the race and her winning time say it all.
If Nash Rawiller (Aus jockey) had ridden So You Think, he would not have sat there behind all those other horses when there was 1000 mtrs of straight before the first turn. He would have had moved SYT to be right up near the lead before the turn & with so much straight b4 the turn it would be with little cost. Then he would have been in a position to kick when entering the straight. This was a very poor ride. As I've mentioned, SYT has been handled badly by trainer & jockey. Owners deserved it.
@Racehorsewatcher steven arnold is the bloke who rode syt in aus and they had a great connection and your right theres no way he would of settled so far back..the winner was very good but syt should have at least made her earn it more or maybe even win it if he ran to his proper racing style.
@Racehorsewatcher Spot on. The elite Irish and British riders seem to lack the timing an initiative to get the most out of their mount. I Steve Arnold had been retained to ride SYT, the horse may not have been beaten up North, although I concede that Danedream looks very special. SYT will be raced for a further year now, and I hope he gets to silence all the baggers. It was also pleasing to see Snow Fairy put in a great effort.
@SvendBosanvovski Arnold was blamed by Cummings for mistiming SYT's MC run. So it's not only Irish /British riders who "lack timing and initiative". SYT's position was due to his draw. The back 4 during the race were drawn 13-16. The no 12 (Treasure Beach) was the only wide horse to move up. Judging how he faded compared to the other pacemaker (Shareta), gaining early ground takes its toll.SYT was 4L off DD and 2 off SF on final turn, not a bad position. Not sure what more you wanted SH to do?
@thesn000p There are countless examples of horse drawing badly in the Arc, but still managing to find a prominent position before the turn. I expect that AO'B had decided to sacrifice Treasure Beach by having it scorching along, breaking up the field and allowing SYT to catch the leaders as they were coming back to him under pressure. Trying to find a split through the traffic from so far back was doomed to failure.
@SvendBosanvovski I agree those were the tactics. But what traffic? SYT ran down a clear channel. Was he too far back? At the turn he was within 4 or 5L of the horses who finished 1st and 3rd, hardly insurmountable. It's not like he was flying at the end. He only gained 1.5L on SF in 400m and Silver Pond ran home just as fast as him. You're also assuming he would have had the same finishing speed if he'd been closer to the pace. But to move up 5L or so earlier would have cost him in the sprint
@thesn000p He was 10 to 11 lens off the leaders approaching the turn and about 5 from Snow Fairy conserving energy near the rail. When the pressure is fully applied near the 3f you see him behind three horses, Seamus pulling him to the right to get clear running. He gets into full stride and a few horses have gone past him before he surges and regains ground on all but the winner. He had to spend pennies in the early part of the straight, where Seamus is giving him a real hammering.
@SvendBosanvovski 2nd point: What do you make of Sarafina and Silver Pond both positioned as far back as SYT or further? And both finishing as strongly? Did their jockeys also cost them the race? Or are we only allowed to imagine different tactics for SYT? And do you think the fact that the 4 widest drawn horses were the 4 backmarkers points to some consensus between all 4 jockeys about the best way to run the race? Its just their job you know.
@thesn000p Well, for starters, mate, they were not further back. SYT was last at the point of the turn as Seamus appeared to be searching for a run through. Second, they could not have come home faster than SYT if that were the case, because he finished in front of them. He is a huge horse, and more difficult to manoeuvre through a field than a slightly built horse. Look, maybe I have been unfair to Seamus. He was likely following instructions and from that perspective rode a good race
@SvendBosanvovski SYT was never last. Top of the false straight (a minute from home) he was even with NF with Silver Pond 2L behind. Hef moved him past NF and WF and even to Sarafina on the false straight. By the time the jockeys started urging the horses to sprint he was still 2L ahead of SP and a fraction ahead of Sarafina. He finished 2L ahead of SP and 3/4L ahead of Sarafina. Thats why I'm saying SP and Sarafina got equally bad rides and came home just as fast (ok sarafina 0.5L slower!).
@thesn000p 1It is really impossible to accurately judge margins from video still from this angle because of parallax error, which distorts the relative placement. We can see from the earlier shot as they approach the turn that SYT is about 10 lens behind the leaders and third last. To my eye, he is last on the cusp of the turn. The Longchamo administrators don't produce official details of the running, so we unable to resolve the issue.
@SvendBosanvovski 3rd point: You keep saying how Bowman, Boss or Arnold would have ridden differently. How do you know? Aussie jocks are excellent for sure, but they are not infallible and to suggest material difference in quality vs Euros is bigoted. I can, like you, cherry pick races from any Aussie jock and show how a Euro would have done better. Boss was sacked as SYT's jock for botching a race. Steve Arnold vs Gerald Ryan debacle? Bowman vs Ryan Moore 2007 GB season (11% vs 20% winners)?
@thesn000p I have watch them week after week for 50 years and know what to expect. Our elite jockeys won't cop being told by a trainer how to ride their mount. We punters not only expect equisite skills, great timing and emaculate tactical judgment from our elite, but the courage to back their judgment. They ride tight in big competitive fields, where the difference between winning and loosing invariably comes down to the the bloke in the saddle. A great jockey makes their own luck.
@SvendBosanvovski I appreciate a lot of your comments. I like SYT a lot, he was left lot to do in the Arc and ran great to get close. But I believe it was more the draw/circumstances than the riding or training. And other horses were in the same boat. I just get irritated with the disparagement of Euro racing coming from some SYT fans based on a couple of races and a belief that he is an infallible wonder horse. Truth is he was a consistent 128-132 Timeform horse in Aus and is the same in Europe
@thesn000p Nice to hear yoy say that. What is annoying for Aussies and Kiwis who have followed his career from his first trace, seen him win the Cox Plate the first time as a 2yo according to the Gregorian Calender, is a constant denigration of every effort he makes. He should have been unbeaten before the Arc, is clearly the best 10f horse racing there. He has met and beaten the best, and yet there is the harping chorus of how overrated he is. There is more to come, so we will see.
@Nautilus1972 Pour Moi is gone. We can only speculate about what it might have done. He was never ask to run 2m 24, which is what he would have needed to do to beat this terrific filly.
Sorry- The Glatisant- watch again. The filly was clearly pulling away from the field, including SYT, in the final furlong of the race. The pull in the weights. and her devastating turn of foot, would've put paid to them irrespective of race tactics.
Racewatcher - I think you are right in part - SYT is now a magnificent stallion - and he is still a magnificent racehorse too - O'Brien messed up only two races. he was underdone when rewilding beat him and if you look at the final 200 of the Arc was coming home as well as the winner - so his fitness was ok. it is almost impossible to make up the ground he had to concede when a track record is being run. the mistake was the tactics used. To be fair to the filly - they probably cost second place.
Supurb run by the German filly. Her turn of foot was outstanding. She had the perfect ride from an ideal inside barrier. If only SYT had his stablemate St Nicholas Abbeys barrier he would of been in the perfect place in the field just tracking the leaders into the straight. Would of been a cracking finish between SYT and Danedream down the straight.
I can't take anything away from the winner, yes, she got the big pull in the weights, but the turn of foot she showed to run away from them tells me she has genuine talent. As for SYT, that ride was nowhere near as proactive as it needed to be. And he STILL doesn't look fit. I don't think there's any shame in the run for the horse himself though, he passed just about everything coming home, but it would certainly have been nice to see him closer in the running.
Aidan o Brien has no idea. They should have left him in Australia instead of taking him over to these goat tracks to race. You have stuffed up Aiden, and have made his value go down. Hang your head in shame you clown.
@debbider your wrong aiden is the best trainer in the world , its just that european racing is alot more competitive than australian racing . But i would agree that it was bad tactics on the day
@orinocodog No he's not! He (OBrien)has the best horses to work with and the most valuable yearlings in the world(Galileo,Montjeu's etc).The greatest trainer in Britain is David Elsworth;he of Dessie fam
Get a good horse first lol
Naffluke 1 month ago
@Naffluke I agree SYT is an over-rated horse
HadleyReisMC 3 weeks ago
race won Danedream, Snow Fairy was in almost the same position as SYT and finished quicker. Whinging Aussies
Naffluke 1 month ago
Can everyone stop saying SYT would've won this if they had another jockey on. The best horse in this
Naffluke 1 month ago
Danedream was impressive winning the Arc. But was made to look pretty ordinary by Buena Vista in the Japan Cup. 3 years in a row, the Euro's have sent over some decent horses, and none have fared particularly well. Conduit was best with a 4th in 09'. Last year saw Cirrus Des Aigles run 9th, Joshua Tree 10th, and Dandino 11th. Now this year, it was Danedream finishing 6th, Shareta 7th, and Sarah Lynx 12th. Not really the kind of finishes you'd expect to see out of horses of this caliber, IMO.
GBeret83 3 months ago
@GBeret83 two words TRAVELING and QUARANTINE 6,033.16 miles is a long time in a box
follyhoog 2 months ago
@GBeret83 I suspect that traveling great distances not knowing where you are going is way more traumatic for horses than humans. It seems to me that most of the great horses rarely competed outside their home continent. I will remember Danedream's win in the Arc long after the memory of the Japan Cup has faded.
daeuri 2 months ago
SYT was the most talented horse in the Arc. They need advice from Bart Cummings, and they need the right jockey to ride him.
415hammie 3 months ago
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GBeret83 3 months ago
worst ride ever by So You Thinks jockey absolutly butched him,he have never raced so far back on the home turn!!!!!,Aidan O Brien crap trainer!!!!
manikato75 3 months ago
What a great horse. Has to be one of the best ever. This animal absolutely played with this field. Lucas Cranach was third in the cup this year like So You Think last year. It has been a year for the fillies, and Havre de Grace is maybe the one to cap it off.
SupBA 4 months ago
She put this to bed in the twinkling of an eye. Very impressive performance.
ThefightingCelt 4 months ago
wait till breeders cup, ireland will shine
KGALL06 4 months ago
Right its obvious after today SYT is not a great after yet another loss, but I sure do respect the hell out of it with all its desire and effort to win races, even though I do downbeat on its performance it'd only cause of the utter ignorance of the Australians, cannot fault the bravery of the horse though.
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim SYT was within 1/2l of snow fairy for the third time now. People can stop making excuses now that he's some kind of wonder horse who has been under some bad rides. Not top drawer stuff evidently. Frankel on the other hand ... 4th highest rated flat horse in history. Well done Mr. Cecil. Enjoy it.
Nautilus1972 4 months ago
@Nautilus1972 Give him back to Bart Cummings and you will see what a master trainer can do with the kind of talent SYT has. We are appalled by the dreadful deal he has received from Coolmore. This is a horse capable of G1 sprints and staying two miles, and the buffoons haveraced him underprepared (PoW), or set him a murderous itinery. Racing him on dirt was the last folly. I would love to corner the Mighty Bart to get his private view of this appalling deconstruction of a champion.
SvendBosanvovski 3 months ago
@drofheim Aidan o brian butched this horse has no idea how to race him!!! he is never so far back on the home turn,!!!!
manikato75 3 months ago
@drofheim It was a terrific run by SYT you racist meathead. Have another look. He has almost dropped to last approaching the turn (12 lens from the lead). He has about three behind him as they staighten (9 lens), his rider searching for a way through the traffic. Then he lets him go and he begins to lengthen, he finds a gap but has to be steadied before he starts taking ground from horses about to run past him. SYT was set an impossible task here.
SvendBosanvovski 3 months ago
Saw So you think in paddock and was best looker in field - but he hard a hard race there making up all that ground - can't see how he'll be ready for Ascot - looks out the places for me, well remember the stupid races they sent Dylan Thomas after his Arc, they over race them at end of season.
ballotboxman 4 months ago
I am not arrogant, its all you lot making excuses and telling us how great your horses are, I'm just sick of it, I accept defeat if our horses lose, you all cry and make excuses all the time, SYT is not and will not be the best horse that ever lived, deal with it.
drofheim 4 months ago
Also deluded moron, forgot to mention.
drofheim 4 months ago
Chapman yet another ignorant and arrogant Aussie.
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim Buddy you are the last person that should be calling anyone arrogant.
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
It's likely the partial Japanese ownership played a large role in the decision to skip the Breeders Cup in favor of the Japan Cup with Danedream. But I still think she'd stand a better shot of getting a piece of the BC Turf's $3 million or the F&M Turf's $2 million than she'll stand at getting a piece of the Japan Cup. Euro horses haven't done that well in the race over the past few seasons. Purple Moon 9th in 08', Conduit 4th in 09', Cirrus Des Aigles 9th, Joshua Tree 10th, Dandino 11th in 10'.
GBeret83 4 months ago
Riding style of Starke reminds me of Michael Roberts, somebody agree?
Tenorliebe 4 months ago
Congrats to the filly...but So You think..wow, what a run. Ride him a tad closer and he wins this as easily as the filly did. Saying all that and chamnging the subject, wait until the world sees Black Caviar in Europe. It will be embarrassing for European breeding when she explodes.
Chapmanfamily1 4 months ago
FFS O'Brien, did you watch a race of SYT's in Australia? Sit him in front of the pack behind the pacemaker (unbelievable that you'd train a horse just to be a bunny in the first place) and he'll win by 10L just from raw pace.
He's not the same horse that much is clear but he's finding his feet.
jsham23 4 months ago
Black manna fuck off tool, Aidan O'Brien has won 193 G1's all over the world and been at Ballydoyle 33 years less.
drofheim 4 months ago
How many Arcs has Cummings won?
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim 0 because he hasn't targeted one, if he wanted to i'm sure he could win the shitty race.
blackmamba2610 4 months ago
@drofheim No, no Arc, just 264 Group 1 winners, including 12 Melbourne Cups.
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
@drofheim Silly question if you think about it. 19 of the last 30 winners have been 3 year olds. Bart would have to win the race with a 2 year old weighted as a 3 year old. 9 of the remaining 11 winners were 4 year olds. Bart would have to win the race with a 3 year old, weighted as a 4 yo. Winning the Arc, which is worth less prizemoney doesn't, under those conditions, look too attractive.
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
Comment removed
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
Id take SYT over Twice Over, it'll hurt Twice Over that the race was taken from Newmarket
drofheim 4 months ago
.... Came from US Sites.
drofheim 4 months ago
All came from us sires.
drofheim 4 months ago
Anything with Sadlers Wells in the pedigree dont usually go on dirt, they are bred for turf, if you look at the European horses that have done well at done well at the Classic , Henrythenavigator, Ravens Pass, Sakhee, Giants Causeway, all camr
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim Where was Sadler's Wells bred, drofheim? He was a Canadian American, wasn't he?
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
Amazing, just amazing. You have to really wonder about these European trainers thinking. So You Think is set to run "just 13 days" after the Arc race. O'Brien is in two minds, worried if that's "too soon", but also saying "if it were up to him he'd run the horse every week, his constitution is amazing". Really? Finally the penny has dropped. Racehorses need to race, not be on the training track shadow boxing. Gunsynd, in the spring of 1972, raced 10 times in 12 weeks for 4 wins, 2 2nds & 3 3rds
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher Yes. Especially a powerfully built fellow like SYT. He ran the 2 miles of the Cup 4 days after the Mackinnon Stakes and looked the winner at the 2f post. He will win the Champion Stakes, provided Seamus gets him close enough and doesn't go too early. I think the stable have just begun to understand this horse in the way the mighty Bart did. Too much confidence in the PoW, not enough in the Arc. Now we should see him at his best.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
So You Think races next Saturday in the Champion Stakes where he faces Arc 15th Reliable Man who will perform better if the bad weather continues and Nathaniel who beat, Workforce, SYT biggest challenger tho could be the undefeated Dubai Prince, So You Think will also contest the BC Classic but he has slim to no chance, can't think of one Sadlers Wells sons or grandsons ever performing on dirt.
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim I don't like him on dirt either, Dofheim, but you'd think they wouldnlt take him if he had no chance. Its a long way over the Atlantic. Have you hear whether Danedream is going to the Breeder's Classic or the Distaff race?
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@drofheim Twice Over is flying on the gallops and comes to hand this time of year, he'll be hard to beat in the champion stakes and will be fresher than the arc also rans
john131349 4 months ago
Gotta disagree Pour Moi would beat Danedream, Derby form is abysmal.
drofheim 4 months ago
What a little "outclassed" , German group type non-entity. All the experts had their say...Myself and friends had a small investement at 25/1 When you watch her pulverising performances in Germany , Group 1 races , I am sick that I only bet a tiny amount on this ..."wonder horse"... As they are now calling her...
sorry I'm just back from holiday ..xx
charliemctruth 4 months ago
@charliemctruth There are four things that tells us she is an exceptional filly: she can win on very soft tracks and very firm tracks at G1 level; she can run super fast time off a fast early pace; she has beaten the best turf field that could have been assembled by a big margin; and she has exceptional acceleration. With those attributes in abundance, she could become one of the greatest of all time.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
Zarkava, Montjeu, Workforce, Lamtarra all horses who won Arc with little preperation, Dylan Thomas pretty much had same route as So You Think.
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim The winner in those didn't run 2m 24.5. All those mentioned raced on rain affected tracks and came from favourable barrier draws: Zarkava (1), Montjeu (4), Workforce (8), Lammtarra (7) and Dylan Thomas (6). They were all 3yos, with the exception of Dylan Thomas, so lightly weighted. Only 5 horses older than 4 have ever won the race in 89 runnings. Only three 3yo winners have come back at 4 and won it, including two all time greats. That tells us something about the WFA scale.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski it favours the older horses earlier in the season in races like the king george and eclipse though, so the older horses have the early advantage but it evaporates as the 3 year olds grow in size and experience during the season
john131349 4 months ago
@john131349 6lb and 11lb in the Arc is a huge pull in the weights when asked to carry 9st 5lb. Star Witness and Choisir were 3yos here, but ask to carry 7lb to 8lb more than your 3yos when they raced in the UK. That's about 3 lens. They use a split table in the USA to make it fair. Star Witness would have won both the King Stand (lost a head) and The Golden Jubilee (lost 3/4 len) using the US scale. Scary to think he received 11lb from BC when she beat him by 7.8 lens eased up!
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher It was the Betfair Australian horseracing forum. I think the title was SYT's done Australasia proud the same can't be said for Workforce from memory.
SoulSurvivor79 4 months ago
I cannot understand how a horse is to be set for such a major race like the Arc, having run only once in three months, basically second up for a feature race. Horses need to be race hardened, just like any athlete or sports person. There's a world of difference between training on a track and competing in a proper race. There's no way J B Cumming's would have had such a preparation for the horse for the Arc. He would have built the horse up with 2 -3 hard races in the six weeks prior.
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher I came across the champs closing sectionals on a horse racing forum. But in saying that another person stated SYT ran the last 5f in 57.10.
SoulSurvivor79 4 months ago
@SoulSurvivor79 Do you have a link to that forum? It's curious that those who've only seen SYT race in Europe (where to me he has never looked the same horse - just does not look fit) rather than listen to others who have seen him race in Aus and consider there might be something in what is being said, simply dismiss it as sour grapes. The fact that enough people have said there's something odd, should at least alert an objective observer to the possibility that they might have something to say.
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
SYT was ridden upside down . He has proved that he has a high cruising speed and can when allowed to run along freely accelerate at the end . He should have been running where St Nic Abby was
gramali54 4 months ago
Wonder if there is an arc video where we can talk about Danedream, its gonna be great to see SYT against Frankel, gonna be a demolition.
drofheim 4 months ago
Geez if they finally run out of steam for their horses, they turn to jockeys, Hugh Bowman was over in UK for half the flat season and he was good but just as good as the other top jockeys, Kerrin McEvoy also just the same, if you're good jockey you're a good jockey, doesn't matter about country. Best jockey is Irish anyway, aussies are unbelievable.
drofheim 4 months ago
I don't know what it is about European and British racing, but it is impossible for the punter to get any information about the races. No sectional times, no published steward reports or race footage of the kind we have in OZ. There were 33 camera located around the course when Might and Power won the Cup, and a dolly camera following by the side of the runners. All metropolitan races have detailed stewards reports, and penetrometer reading of the track.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski It's because it's not as professional as it should be or as Europeans like to think it is. There is a tradition of horse racing in Europe, but it hasn't become as professional as elsewhere. This is why I was asking @SoulSurvivor79 where he got his sectionals from. Also, this pace setting and team racing is unbelievable - banned in Australia, as it should be. The stewards in the UK are basically voluntary and amateurs. Unlike in Asia where they are licensed professionals.
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher This is why our elite jockeys would leave the Brits for dead. They are subject to strict scrutiny at all stages of a race, even overhead cameras from a blimp on big race days in Melbourne. I remember seeing Sky footage of Damian Oliver shifting a mount from the rails to get around a tiring horse, taking a split between two others, swapping his whip hand, applying the persuader to secure control before shifting back to the rails and winning a G1 1200m at Flemington.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher ...And they think we talk up our horses and jockeys up. The ride on SYT would embarrass Darren Beadman or Glen Boss, two of our greatest modern day riders. George Moore, Roy Higgins, Pat Hyland, Shane Dye, Mick Dittman or even the cocky Jimmy Cassidy would never sit back waiting for the field to collapse as Seamus did here. They would be energetically looking for the opportunity to move their mount into a winning position. We see it week in and week out.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
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@SoulSurvivor79 Where did you get those sectionals from?
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
Why would Ballydoyle take a horse talented enough to win the Irish Derby, Secretariat Stakes, beat King George winner, Nathaniel, in the Chester Vase, and very nearly won the Epsom Derby, and make a sacrificial lamb out of him as a pacemaker? That's ridiculous. Why not let Treasure Beach try to win the race on his own merits? He's arguably the best middle distance 3yr.old they have in their barn, and he had the 3yr.old weight break. Everyone's always saying how well 3yr.old's fare in the Arc.JMO
GBeret83 4 months ago
@GBeret83 I agree GB. It would be illegal in Australia, where every horse is required to be run on its merit and be given the best chane of winning. It is farcical and unfair to the punter to have a horse you have assessed on past form sacrificed to corporate interest in that way.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski, Still shaking my head about that decision for Treasure Beach? Honestly, of the 3 horses Coolmore had in the race. I think I would've been more likely to use up St Nicholas Abbey as the pacemaker. Since Treasure Beach had the 3yr.old weight for age break, and was already proven in the Irish Derby, Epsom Derby, Secretariat Stakes, and Chester Vase. TJMO.
GBeret83 4 months ago
@GBeret83 Use of pacemakers should be outlawed. We have genuine front runners/ That's their pattern of racing. One of my all time favourites, Vo Rogue was like that. Trainers can couple those with a horse favoured by a strong pace. But any radical change in tactics must be run past the stewards well before the race, and approved. The public then know what they are in for. Any such change will only be permitted if intended to improve that horse's prospects. Would SYT have won without TB.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski I agree with you on the pacemaker matter. For me the biggest issue with it is its akin to throwing the race, IMO anyway. I mean, the job of the pacemaker is ultimately to back up. Why even enter a horse into a race, if you're not going to give them a proper chance at winning. Every horse deserves a chance to win a race, especially a race like the Arc, not be forced to lose. I thought So You Think ran superbly, 3rd last into the straight to get up to 4th, nice run.
d9y8l7a6n5 4 months ago
You had to be at the front with the pace so strong - if anybody was thinking they would come back they were well wrong - usually they tire at the end but no wind and fast conditions allowed to keep up gallop. Shareta was second best on the day in all senses.
ballotboxman 4 months ago
Sorry guys, stop all this guff. In racing all that's important is winning - not whining after losing. So, please give up on lame excuses and telling utter nonsense like "the horse that came in 4th was really the best on the day". If you're a fan of So You Think you might look forward to the Champion Stakes, but don't look back at the Arc. He simply wasn't good enough. It's as easy as that.
manduro07 4 months ago
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@manduro07 Who is it you're trying to convince?
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
And Danedream got nothing on Sea the Stars!
WazaUk 4 months ago
Snow Fairy deserves a lot of praise here. Came from way back to get third! An incredibly reliable place horse!
WazaUk 4 months ago
Fame And Glory suffered interference from Planteur last year, Sea The Stars won the Arc just after the 2f marker, the distance didn't matter fact is if Youmzain got within 1l Sea The Stars would have went on again, Sea The Stars at Sandown showed he could use a turn of foot twice, only a freak horse could do that. Anymore pathetic put downs?
drofheim 4 months ago
@drofheim They didn''t run the race in a tick over 2m 24 when STS won. That could very well be the fastest time ever run for the distance anwhere but Japan and the US where they get a run up on fast, flat tracks. Most of the filed ran on merit with their usual racing patters, except SYT. He is a horse that races better just of the pace and could have been there had the jockey used initiative. The theory was to use TB to break the field up, a long run home and use SYT superior speed.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
If everyone mentions SYT surely Meandre's run was idenyical, he seemed more unlucky cause SYT and Sarafina squeezed him in, if he got through he'd have finished ahead of SYT.
drofheim 4 months ago
This was not a muddling race, one of the cleanest runs for a long time, Zarkavas arc was rough as was last years.
drofheim 4 months ago
Worse ride ive ever seen didnt get out properly untill about half way down the straight. But to have it at the rear of th field was a stupid move, better to sit about fifth tracking the leaders. It will win next time though.
currie313 4 months ago
If u think SYT was given the worst ride or was the best horse out there, pause at 1:49 and see Sarafina 1/2L behind him and Silver Pond 2L back. Then pause on the line and lo and behold, Sarafina 1/2L down and Silver Pond 2L back. Hmm. Clearly he ran no better than either of those who could equally argue a poor ride. But more realistically, those 3 were drawn 13,14,16 so I would say it was the draw rather than poor jockeyship that saw them so far back.
thesn000p 4 months ago
All credit must go to the winner, that was an exceptional run and win, but the commentator was spot on about So You Think.. 'came from nowhere'. SYT was nowhere due to the deplorable ride he was given, that far back with so much traffic to navigate, he was never going to win that. His best wins have always been on the speed, stalking, or on the lead.
MrDraven37 4 months ago
@MrDraven37 SYT ran to his ability - if 0.5L below, but his proximity to rewilding, Twice Over and horses like that marked him out as less than top drawer. The winner has trounced them.
Nautilus1972 4 months ago
@Nautilus1972 Find one other race in his career where he races near to the rear of the field other than the 5th he ran behind Starspangledbanner in the Caulfield Guineas (8F). Even in relatively large fields he always races on the speed. There's not a horse in the world that could have won from the position he was in at the 3F mark. Taking nothing from the winner... but it was an overly safe ride that gave him no hope of finishing any closer than he did.
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Nonehteless, Snow Fairy - whose form is about level with SYT - was unhindered and well beaten. See Irish Champion stakes where she was beaten a neck when getting up on SYT.
Nautilus1972 4 months ago
To be fair Australians have awesome sprinters.
drofheim 4 months ago
Time after time its usually proven you need an instant turn of foot, Danedream shown she had it and even seemed more impressive than Zarkava and Sea The Stars, she put the race to bed that sectionals are laughable excuses, I'm not sure which Australian the Racing Post quoted but he was right what he said, Australians were arrogant about So You Think and overrated him, shame cause he is decent, but when he faces Frankel he will be beaten by five lengths again.
drofheim 4 months ago
In hind sight, those of us who overlooked Danedream in this race are looking back over the replay and realizing that we just flatly overlooked a damn talented 3yr.old filly. Still, can't help but feeling this was a very odd Arc? Not because that Danedream won the race. But because of the alarmingly high # of "high profile" horses who all apparently waited to choose this race as their worst run of the season. JMO.
GBeret83 4 months ago
@GBeret83 a muddly, muddy race riddled with confusing rides and runs.
sleeplessinsale 4 months ago
@sleeplessinsale The best horse won, and that's all you can ask for. Well done Germany. You bet the cream of the crop(s).
Nautilus1972 4 months ago
Nobody calls the commentary of the Arc like Big Jim!!
GBeret83 4 months ago
Even in Australia he lost to a European lolz.
drofheim 4 months ago
hibernation
SoulSurvivor79 4 months ago
@cmcgarth Have you just woken up out of hibination? Just beaten Workforce? What about all the other Euro horses SYT's dealt to this season. From memory he's won 3g1's over in Europe hasn't he? Add another on the 15th to that list if he turns up at ascot.
SoulSurvivor79 4 months ago
@cmcgrath Doesn't have the gears? He ran the last 5f in 56.90 and last 3f in 33. Fastest closing sectionals by any horse in the race. Had he drawn an inside barrier run his normal race just behind the leaders been on terms with Danedream at the 3f pole he would of went close to winning the arc.No doubt in my mind.
SoulSurvivor79 4 months ago
@SoulSurvivor79 Where did you get those sectionals from?
Racehorsewatcher 4 months ago
So You Think wasnt good enough, he might be a champion in Australia, running against trees, but in Europe, all he could beat is an overrated Workforce. He dosent have the gears to win an Arc.
Australia have good sprinters but they dont have good middle distance horses.
cmcgarth1O 4 months ago
@cmcgarth1O LOL overrated Workforce,Workforce beat Fame and Glory and Youmzain in the Arc even easier then Sea the Stars did
debbider 4 months ago
.....he made no impression at all on Danedream in the straight nor did he pull away from rank outsider Silver Pond who was last into the straight.
Zarkava08 5 months ago
He's a very good horse, just not as good as many Australians want him to be. To an Australian he probably is a legendary horse because their 10f+ division is so much weaker than Europe. But we get a few horses of his class in Europe most years - he's more of a Dylan Thomas class animal than a Sea The Stars or Zarkava. With a more prominent ride to offset his lack of acceleration he probably would have been second in the Arc but was never beating the winner......
Zarkava08 5 months ago
Who are the fools who think So You Think was unlucky??At no point did he ever close on the winner,who was actually pulling out more at the end and would have won by seven lengths with another furlong.German horses are hardy and tough.Star Appeal was good but Danedream and Acatenango were top drawer.Well Done Deutchland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
postcardterry 5 months ago
I too believe SYT trainer and jockey got it wrong but for a different reason. He is a big horse and needs galloping room and doesn't do as well racing inside of other horses. The jockey would have been better off riding wide with cover and let him finish on the outside....but anyway the winner was too good
gustavasson 5 months ago
Having 8-10 races in an entire career, is like winning a couple of grand slam tennis tournaments, or two golf majors, and then saying you're an all time great. Keep playing and beating all comers for a number of years, keeping winning major tournaments, then you can claim to be great.
Racehorsewatcher 5 months ago
As for all time great horses. A horse that has only 8 or 10 starts in its whole career, cannot in my view be considered a great horse. This is typical of European horses. A great horse, like a great sports person, needs to take on all comers over several years. Try racing for 4-5 years, 8-10 preparations, 40-50 races, taking on all comers, in all conditions, at a variety of distances, overcoming injuries, making comeback after comeback, then you have a great horse. Very common in Australia.
Racehorsewatcher 5 months ago
Well he only did what Zarkava did which about only 1% of racehorses actually can do, go back in the corner you fucking troll.
drofheim 5 months ago
People argue about SYT(which is warranted because he was ridden HORRIBLY) But how about that Donkey Aiden O'brien using an Irish Classic champion as his pacemaker????. Treasure Beach had a great chance in this race if it wasn't for these insane tactics. Also Galikova who was ridden by Olivier Pelsier, he gave her NO chance to get in this race. He has her buried near the rear on the rail the whole way around....not the first shite ride he gave Freddie Head's horses this year.
TicinoParadise 5 months ago
Sea The Stars destroyed everything that was put in front of him, put in one of the fastest Eclipses, smashed the track record in the International, he was so good he would probably win a 6f group 1, won at 12f, 10f, 8f, foals are selling at record numbers for first year stallion, Sea The Stars 140 timeform rating, better race record than his brother, the mighty Galileo responsible for some of the best racehorses today, the Urban Sea line of horses are usually exceptional, idiot.
drofheim 5 months ago
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debbider 5 months ago
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@drofheim Sea the Stars destroyed nobody,he narrowly won most of his races and against average horses to boot,horses that have done nothing since to frank the form
Terribly overrated horse
debbider 5 months ago
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besamc1 5 months ago
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besamc1 5 months ago
Sea the Stars narrowly beats Fame and Glory in the Irish Champion Stakes and narrowly beats him in the English Derby and the Europeans think he is the greatest thing ever LMAO(Fame and Glory got smashed in the Irish St Leger and also runs in 4000m plodding donkey races against future hurdlers LMAO), not to mention he beat the average Delegator in the Guineas,what has Delegator done since then?
Form around Sea the Stars is simply disgraceful,easily the most overrated horse ever
debbider 5 months ago
@debbider - Are you mad??. Mastercraftman, Conduit, Stacelita, Fame and Glory, Youzmain. Not to mention he was banged around down on the rail half the length of the stretch about 10 lengths off the lead.....go learn something Armchair fan.
TicinoParadise 5 months ago
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debbider 5 months ago
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debbider 5 months ago
@TicinoParadise LMAO Stacelita couldn't even win the United Nations in America against there dud turf horses,Youzmain was a non winner for christs sake LMAO,Fame and Glory is running in 4000m races against slow coaches and getting smashed in the Irish St Leger
LMAO @ Sea the Stars
debbider 5 months ago
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TicinoParadise 4 months ago
@debbider Stacelita was given the most horrid ride in the United Nations any one with a brain knows that, and considering that it was her first race on a tight American course she did well. Didn't see u criticize Conduit, or Mastercraftsman???. LMAO Fame and Glory being a multiple GR1 winner, and won the Tattersalls, and Coronation Cup the following year, and let's not forget his GR1 win in the Ascot Gold cup this year. You are an amateur simple as that mate. Keep talking like one.
TicinoParadise 4 months ago
@debbider - Well the most Overrated horse(as you put) only won the 2000 Guineas, Epsom derby, Irish Champions stakes, Prix L'arc De Triomphe, International Stakes, and the Eclipse stakes as a 3yr old......you and your so called racing knowledge need to go away, and fast before you say something to make yourself look stupid.......oh wait to LATE!
TicinoParadise 4 months ago
@debbider F&G won his Derby trial by 5L, won the Irish Derby by 5L, is a 5x G1 winner from 10F to 20F, has won a G1 at 11F by 7L. Not a donkey. Delegator was average but STS also beat RVW and Mastercraftsman in the Guineas (and subsequently too) who between them cleaned up the Irish guineas, St James Palace, Sussex and QE2. He smashed Conduit 6 L in the Eclipse who went on to win the KG, then beat him again in the Arc before he won the BC Turf. That my friend is form.
thesn000p 4 months ago
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debbider 5 months ago
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debbider 5 months ago
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debbider 5 months ago
to all the so you think fans i'll just say this the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so you think had his chance on ground he loves to prove himself and he couldn't even get placed in the best middle distance turf race in the world, yeah thats right all you aussies the arc is THE best middle distance turf race in the world not the cox plate as some idiot said and put that crap up as his reason for syt being the best middle distance horse in the world ha ha ha etc...............
dynamodel 5 months ago
SYT is a really good horse but lacks the gears in this big fields.
Hw only beat handicappers in Australia, they thought he was Pegasus!
He is very good. Not quite a great though, as shown today.
Dandream just flew.
forsoup 5 months ago
@forsoup He beat the best field of 12f horses that could have been assembled anywhere in the world, with the exception of two lightly weighted 3yos and a 4yo mare he had already beaten, notwithstanding the weight difference, a terrible barrier draw and an unimaginative ride. He is on perfromance the best 10f to 12f horse in the world.
SvendBosanvovski 5 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski Agreed. As u know I did a fair bit of coin on SYT, but I didn't back him once the barriers were drawn. I think it was a very safe ride from Heffernen. Had he pressed forward at the start & compounded to run near the rear it would have been a poor outcome for Coolmore. At least this way, while not having a realistic winning chance they could still claim he ran creditably, which of course he did. I still think thought that he would have benefitted from BC's way of race training.
bgardiner2000 5 months ago
@bgardiner2000 BG, you are being very gracious describing it as a “very safe ride”. Can you imagine the great George Moore sitting back in last place on the turn, shifting inside and waiting for the seas to part like Moses at the Red Sea? He would have overcome the bad draw, moving the horse to within striking distance and unleashing the great power we saw on display. This horse ran 1400 in 1m 21 at Randwick. As Dato famously said: " He's a tiger". The best stayer doing the rounds.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski I was trying to be diplomatic. Gambling on European racing can be frustrating in that you often won't know if you're going to ge much of a run for your money. I agree with your assessment of G Moore. At least I would have had a run at a place chance if he wasn't able to outpace the winner, who did win very very well. Luckily I had a few places on Black Caviar today so I made some of my losses back ;)
bgardiner2000 4 months ago
@bgardiner2000 Yes, you were BG. Cotton Fingers was the greatest jockey I have ever seen. Do you remember his Slipper win on Baguette? I was at the track that day and had a small bet on him, George muscled his way through to win - he knew he was on a champion. From memory I think it was one of the great man's last rides and he wasn't going to finish second being nice to opposing jockeys. That's the kind of jockey we produce here - 'tigers" as Dato would say.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
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@bgardiner2000 BG, you are being very gracious describing it as a “very safe ride”. Can you imagine the great George Moore sitting back in last place on the turn, shifting inside and waiting for the seas to part like Moses at the Red Sea? He would have overcome the bad draw, moving the horse to within striking distance and unleashing the great power we saw on display. This horse ran 1400 in 1m 21 at Randwick. As Dato famously said: " He's a tiger". The best stayer doing the rounds.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
Think it was time I paid tribute to the winner, owners to an expensive gamble to race here and she paid it back with a million quid, she routed them. Looks like either Turf or the Classic?
drofheim 5 months ago
Zarkava was in the same position as where So You Think was and also she blew the start and still won, Sea The Stars was closer yes but blocked in and also pulled hard, So You Think isn't as good as those aussies think he is, sick of their crying and whinging
drofheim 5 months ago
@drofheim Very true; to name but two; Workforce in 2010 and Dancing Brave in 1986 also came from a long way behind.
Laytonia1977 5 months ago
@Laytonia1977 Is that the Workforce that SYT has beaten twice now?
SvendBosanvovski 5 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski Yes.
Laytonia1977 4 months ago
Alemania manda.¡La locomotora alemana!
paradoxicus 5 months ago
Danedream completely destroyed this field! SYT may not have had a great ride, but I doubt he would have won tbh, he may have been closing at the end, but he wasn't 'flying'. He's a very good horse, but not an all time great. JMO though :) Good run from SF too!
xWibbleywobbleyx 5 months ago
@drofhiem Your talking out your arse. Both STS and Zarkava were alot closer than SYT was when entering the straight SYT was ten lengths off the lead coming up to the final turn. If he had drawn a inside barrier and been up near the lead where he normally races he would of went close to winning this race. He had the fastest closing sectionals!
SoulSurvivor79 5 months ago
When I saw its wins in Germany I knew she was special, and I invested heavily @ 25/1. It was great listening to the so called "experts " before the race, who completely dismissed her with comments like, "out of her depth" , "plain unpreposing small filly" ! Now with hindsight they say she is the greatest filly EVER ! Oh well, I'm off down to Ladbrokes to collect a huge amount of cash. xx
charliemctruth 5 months ago
So much crying and whining, Danedream on another level to SYT, end of, Sea The Stars and Zarkava came of the pace and won cause they were genuine superstars.
drofheim 5 months ago
@drofheim Yeah narrowly beating hopeless horses like Fame and Glory and Delegator during your career makes you a superstar LMAO
LMAO at Sea the Stars
debbider 5 months ago
Danedream is a dream, she destroyed the field in her last three races and can run on any ground. she was the best horse in the race and her winning time say it all.
kambahou 5 months ago
If Nash Rawiller (Aus jockey) had ridden So You Think, he would not have sat there behind all those other horses when there was 1000 mtrs of straight before the first turn. He would have had moved SYT to be right up near the lead before the turn & with so much straight b4 the turn it would be with little cost. Then he would have been in a position to kick when entering the straight. This was a very poor ride. As I've mentioned, SYT has been handled badly by trainer & jockey. Owners deserved it.
Racehorsewatcher 5 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher steven arnold is the bloke who rode syt in aus and they had a great connection and your right theres no way he would of settled so far back..the winner was very good but syt should have at least made her earn it more or maybe even win it if he ran to his proper racing style.
mattonker 5 months ago
@Racehorsewatcher Spot on. The elite Irish and British riders seem to lack the timing an initiative to get the most out of their mount. I Steve Arnold had been retained to ride SYT, the horse may not have been beaten up North, although I concede that Danedream looks very special. SYT will be raced for a further year now, and I hope he gets to silence all the baggers. It was also pleasing to see Snow Fairy put in a great effort.
SvendBosanvovski 5 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski Arnold was blamed by Cummings for mistiming SYT's MC run. So it's not only Irish /British riders who "lack timing and initiative". SYT's position was due to his draw. The back 4 during the race were drawn 13-16. The no 12 (Treasure Beach) was the only wide horse to move up. Judging how he faded compared to the other pacemaker (Shareta), gaining early ground takes its toll.SYT was 4L off DD and 2 off SF on final turn, not a bad position. Not sure what more you wanted SH to do?
thesn000p 4 months ago
@thesn000p There are countless examples of horse drawing badly in the Arc, but still managing to find a prominent position before the turn. I expect that AO'B had decided to sacrifice Treasure Beach by having it scorching along, breaking up the field and allowing SYT to catch the leaders as they were coming back to him under pressure. Trying to find a split through the traffic from so far back was doomed to failure.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski I agree those were the tactics. But what traffic? SYT ran down a clear channel. Was he too far back? At the turn he was within 4 or 5L of the horses who finished 1st and 3rd, hardly insurmountable. It's not like he was flying at the end. He only gained 1.5L on SF in 400m and Silver Pond ran home just as fast as him. You're also assuming he would have had the same finishing speed if he'd been closer to the pace. But to move up 5L or so earlier would have cost him in the sprint
thesn000p 4 months ago
@thesn000p He was 10 to 11 lens off the leaders approaching the turn and about 5 from Snow Fairy conserving energy near the rail. When the pressure is fully applied near the 3f you see him behind three horses, Seamus pulling him to the right to get clear running. He gets into full stride and a few horses have gone past him before he surges and regains ground on all but the winner. He had to spend pennies in the early part of the straight, where Seamus is giving him a real hammering.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski 2nd point: What do you make of Sarafina and Silver Pond both positioned as far back as SYT or further? And both finishing as strongly? Did their jockeys also cost them the race? Or are we only allowed to imagine different tactics for SYT? And do you think the fact that the 4 widest drawn horses were the 4 backmarkers points to some consensus between all 4 jockeys about the best way to run the race? Its just their job you know.
thesn000p 4 months ago
@thesn000p Well, for starters, mate, they were not further back. SYT was last at the point of the turn as Seamus appeared to be searching for a run through. Second, they could not have come home faster than SYT if that were the case, because he finished in front of them. He is a huge horse, and more difficult to manoeuvre through a field than a slightly built horse. Look, maybe I have been unfair to Seamus. He was likely following instructions and from that perspective rode a good race
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski SYT was never last. Top of the false straight (a minute from home) he was even with NF with Silver Pond 2L behind. Hef moved him past NF and WF and even to Sarafina on the false straight. By the time the jockeys started urging the horses to sprint he was still 2L ahead of SP and a fraction ahead of Sarafina. He finished 2L ahead of SP and 3/4L ahead of Sarafina. Thats why I'm saying SP and Sarafina got equally bad rides and came home just as fast (ok sarafina 0.5L slower!).
thesn000p 4 months ago
@thesn000p 1It is really impossible to accurately judge margins from video still from this angle because of parallax error, which distorts the relative placement. We can see from the earlier shot as they approach the turn that SYT is about 10 lens behind the leaders and third last. To my eye, he is last on the cusp of the turn. The Longchamo administrators don't produce official details of the running, so we unable to resolve the issue.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski 3rd point: You keep saying how Bowman, Boss or Arnold would have ridden differently. How do you know? Aussie jocks are excellent for sure, but they are not infallible and to suggest material difference in quality vs Euros is bigoted. I can, like you, cherry pick races from any Aussie jock and show how a Euro would have done better. Boss was sacked as SYT's jock for botching a race. Steve Arnold vs Gerald Ryan debacle? Bowman vs Ryan Moore 2007 GB season (11% vs 20% winners)?
thesn000p 4 months ago
@thesn000p I have watch them week after week for 50 years and know what to expect. Our elite jockeys won't cop being told by a trainer how to ride their mount. We punters not only expect equisite skills, great timing and emaculate tactical judgment from our elite, but the courage to back their judgment. They ride tight in big competitive fields, where the difference between winning and loosing invariably comes down to the the bloke in the saddle. A great jockey makes their own luck.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski I appreciate a lot of your comments. I like SYT a lot, he was left lot to do in the Arc and ran great to get close. But I believe it was more the draw/circumstances than the riding or training. And other horses were in the same boat. I just get irritated with the disparagement of Euro racing coming from some SYT fans based on a couple of races and a belief that he is an infallible wonder horse. Truth is he was a consistent 128-132 Timeform horse in Aus and is the same in Europe
thesn000p 4 months ago
@thesn000p Nice to hear yoy say that. What is annoying for Aussies and Kiwis who have followed his career from his first trace, seen him win the Cox Plate the first time as a 2yo according to the Gregorian Calender, is a constant denigration of every effort he makes. He should have been unbeaten before the Arc, is clearly the best 10f horse racing there. He has met and beaten the best, and yet there is the harping chorus of how overrated he is. There is more to come, so we will see.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
@SvendBosanvovski Met and beaten the best? Hardly. Pour Moi would have made short work of him, and Danedream had they met.
Nautilus1972 4 months ago
@Nautilus1972 Pour Moi is gone. We can only speculate about what it might have done. He was never ask to run 2m 24, which is what he would have needed to do to beat this terrific filly.
SvendBosanvovski 4 months ago
Sorry- The Glatisant- watch again. The filly was clearly pulling away from the field, including SYT, in the final furlong of the race. The pull in the weights. and her devastating turn of foot, would've put paid to them irrespective of race tactics.
greyflight 5 months ago
Racewatcher - I think you are right in part - SYT is now a magnificent stallion - and he is still a magnificent racehorse too - O'Brien messed up only two races. he was underdone when rewilding beat him and if you look at the final 200 of the Arc was coming home as well as the winner - so his fitness was ok. it is almost impossible to make up the ground he had to concede when a track record is being run. the mistake was the tactics used. To be fair to the filly - they probably cost second place.
TheGlatisant 5 months ago
Supurb run by the German filly. Her turn of foot was outstanding. She had the perfect ride from an ideal inside barrier. If only SYT had his stablemate St Nicholas Abbeys barrier he would of been in the perfect place in the field just tracking the leaders into the straight. Would of been a cracking finish between SYT and Danedream down the straight.
SoulSurvivor79 5 months ago
I can't take anything away from the winner, yes, she got the big pull in the weights, but the turn of foot she showed to run away from them tells me she has genuine talent. As for SYT, that ride was nowhere near as proactive as it needed to be. And he STILL doesn't look fit. I don't think there's any shame in the run for the horse himself though, he passed just about everything coming home, but it would certainly have been nice to see him closer in the running.
emmelby 5 months ago
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Aidan o Brien has no idea. They should have left him in Australia instead of taking him over to these goat tracks to race. You have stuffed up Aiden, and have made his value go down. Hang your head in shame you clown.
wadey32disco 5 months ago
Aidan o Brien has completely ruined So You Think
debbider 5 months ago 11
@debbider your wrong aiden is the best trainer in the world , its just that european racing is alot more competitive than australian racing . But i would agree that it was bad tactics on the day
orinocodog 5 months ago
@orinocodog No he's not! He (OBrien)has the best horses to work with and the most valuable yearlings in the world(Galileo,Montjeu's etc).The greatest trainer in Britain is David Elsworth;he of Dessie fam