IMO I think Sonny Liston along with Floyd Patterson are one of the most deserving boxers and Sonny was underrated just cause he lost to Ali twice but I think he can beat several of ATGs
@Brownpride480 - I for one agree. Sonny is a top ten heavy,who was way past his best when he fought Ali. Would have been a handful for any fighter in history.Patterson is underappreciated because of his losses to big hitters Liston and Johanson, he aquitted hiself well against a lot of good heavys. One very nice gentleman also.
@1899sharkey and I bet if Floyd Patterson stayed as a light heavyweight he could of been an ATG though he's still capable of winning the World Heavyweight title and beated some Legends like Archie Moore even though he was past his prime but Patterson still did it regardless of his small weight
@Brownpride480 Floyds fight with Chuvalo in the early 60's was fight of the year,I believe. I thought his win over Bonavena in '72 was impressive given the fact that it was 16 years after he first won the title. He won the undisputed belt twice, which is nothing to sneeze at!
@1899sharkey and I've just read your others comments that's about Mike Tyson and yes he maybe too overrated by the public but I still think he's one of the greatest heavyweight and the only reason Tyson's never faced any real opponents in his prime years is because there was no good heavyweights at the time and I wouldn't count Lennox Lewis as one of the great boxers since he barely started his pro career 3 years after Tyson won the World Championship belts
@Brownpride480 -Tyson was great when he fought men that were intimidated. When he fought guys that weren't intimidated he became not only intimidated but a very ordinary fighter. Weak stamina along with low intestinal fortitude would be fatal aghainst any atg.
@1899sharkey I guess will never find out how great Tyson was since he didn't even get to face one great opponent in his prime years cause there is none and if he still had Cus D'mato and Kevin Rooney on his side he would of been a much better boxer than you expect and probably could of had a longer undefeated streak but I wouldn't go too far about Tyson saying he's better then Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis
@1899sharkey and he also could of not been intimidated by the brave fighters like Holyfield if he never fired Rooney and Let Don King use him as his money-earning machine but IMO he would still lose to Holyfield in his prime but in a much better fight like a hard fought UD and he probably would of have a chance of beating several atgs depending on their styles like Marciano seems like a good one for him despite his tremendous heart but maybe would lose to him by TKO like Frazier vs Foreman
If there was ever a hvywt. that weight didn't matter it would seem to be Dempsey. If the lighter man hits harder and is just as strong, weight really becomes negative in a long fight.I like Mike Silvers opinion that 185 pounds is enough to be a great heavy. Skill and will trump 30 pounds. We just dont have any great fighters anymore, the infrastructure is not there anymore to develop fighters. We have a tiny fraction of the fighters we once had.
Opinions vary. Dempsey was easier to hit with a jab than Tyson. Dempsey was momentarily rocked by Georges Carpentier. How much did he weigh? Tommy Gibbons a great lthvywt, so? Light-heavyweights dont last 2 rounds with Tyson. Some of you people havn't learned an element of boxing and that is some guys are just too strong to box. You have to fight them off. No light-heavy is lasting with Tyson. Hank Kaplan was the 1 who said Tyson had great defense argue with him.
@1saxonwolf This goes back to my statement that there is an element to boxing that some do not get and that is some guys are just too strong too box, you have to be able to fight them off or make them respect your punch. Harry Greb was like that, you couldn't just box him, although Greb was 160-65 and not a big puncher. Lt-heavyweight boxers are not going to be able to keep Tyson off them, that is my point. I don't need Arcel's opinion. I have a deep enuff understanding to think for myself.
@coxscorner You do need Arcel's opinion ! We all do. Were u around to see Dempsey in camp ?, Louis ? Judging by film. Equal to be in camp or ringside ? No. Legends r made for reasons. Someone like Arcel who witnessed Dempsey thru Tyson is to be heard with high regard. Thinking for yourself is a given, opinions r opinions. We all have one. Some matter more.
The majority of HW champs were < 200 lbs when they won the title. Your logic is putting Tyson in some lofty places.
@1saxonwolf We just will have to agree to disagree on this one. You have my opinion and I have nothing further to add. Just beating on a dead horse now.
Here's an anecdote that Liston fans will like. Clay travelled to Vegas and found Liston in a casino. As Liston rolled the dice, Clay yelled, “Look at the big ugly bear, he can't even shoot craps. He can't do nothing right.” Liston threw down the dice and walked up to Clay: “Listen, if you don’t get out of here in 10 seconds, I’m going to pull that fucking tongue out of your mouth and stick it up your ass.” Clay was scared as hell.
no1 wood wanna trash talk liston at a press conference now a days theyd be dead when they stepped in the ring ali got away with it but only because he ran all night no heavyweight can run like ali did and i dont think they wood wanna either but he won so it is what it is
Para mi los mejores 16 pesos pesados de la historia son: 16-Floyd Patterson; 15-Jim Jeffries; 14-Evander Holyfield; 13; "Jersey"Joe Walcott; 12-SONNY LISTON; 11-Mike Tyson; 10-Larry Holmes; 9-Ezzard Charles; 8-George Foreman; 7-Joe Frazier; 6-Gene Tunney; 5-Jack Dempsey; 4-Jack Johnson; 3-Rocky Marciano; 2-JOE LOUIS; 1-MUHAMMAD ALI. Yo tomo en cuenta varias cosas; su potencia, su resistencia,los rivales que les tocó combatir y quien hubiera ganado si se hubieran enfrentado en su mejor momento.
He was an incredible fighter and one of the hardest punchers in boxing history. It's just unfortunate his whole life was so damn sad. I mean, abandoned by his mother at a young age and kicked around from foster home to correctional facility, never accepted where he went and constantly hounded by hatred and never accepted.
And then fucked over by the mob for his entire career. The bastards made him quit that title fight whilst sitting on the corner stool in the 6th round FFS.
None gave Sonny any break that didn't have shit on the underneath. They joked back then that the best thing about him was his missus Geraldine. From a humble background, she was educated, intensely private and shy, and she purely loved the man - and he loved her back the same.
The two hardest hitters in heavyweight boxing in my opinion were Sonny Liston and Rocky Marciano.The next hardest were George Foreman and Joe Frazier. I am not discounting people like Joe Louis , Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson.They were all great champions, but i stick with Liston and Marciano.
@madmike180250 Lol the hardest hitter in boxing was Shavers, it could be Liston. Rocky was a great puncher but not in Foremans league or the other two i just mentioned.
@MultiGreat1 Apologies i totally forgot about Shavers. You're quite right he was a hard hitter, possibly the hardest , there will always be debates on that subject. Earnie unfortunately couldn't take a punch as his many losses by kayo showed. I am not taking anything away from his ability or his punching power .which is beyond doubt. As you also mentioned Foreman could hit as well. While on the subject how highly would you rate Larry Holmes . I think he deserves a mention.Regards Mike.
@madmike180250 I'm talking 'The hardest punchers in boxing' none of that P4P B.S. The hardest puncher in boxing is either Earnie Shavers or Sonny Liston. Foreman is right behind them. Larry Holmes punches hard but so do most heavyweights, Mike Tyson is a better puncher than all of the fighters I just named and by far a harder puncher than Larry Holmes. To sum it all up: Hardest puncher ever: Sonny Liston or Earnie Shavers. Best puncher ever: Joe louis.
@MultiGreat1 Point taken . I can't argue with you as you make some valid points.I think i'll have to agree with you. Hardest puchers ever Liston or Shavers. How do you separate them? God knows.
@madmike180250 Sonny's jab was close to shavers's right or maybe thats a bit of a stretch but I reckon Sonny's right was harder than Shavers right. Sonny's jab is miles higher than the jab of earnie. Its really hard to call, from what I have seen Sonny's jab and right were as strong as Earnie's best punch which was his right. I reckon Sonny was the hardest puncher ever, and if he had started boxing from 15-17 then his power would be way above that of Shavers.
@MultiGreat1 To carry on this discussion if Liston and Shavers had been around at the same time and both had been at the peak of their powers . What a fight that would have been . But we will never know unfotunately. But it's good to speculate.
@MultiGreat1 To carry on the discussion what if Liston and Shavers had met and both fighters had been at the peak of their power . What a fight it would have been. Unfortunately we will never know what would have happened . Still it's nice to speculate.
I love it how that guy is throwing the medicine ball at him at full strength, and Sonny just stands and catches it with a "is that all you got?" attitude. Awesome. =)
I love the power punchers, the killers of boxing. Although it took YEARS of training to mold them in to their correct form, the killer instinct they possess as well as the POTENTIAL to be a power puncher is god given. Guys like Tyson, Liston, Dempsey, Marciano were born killers, imho Dempsey was the best of them all
@Ricky42791 I am in search of a boxing expert who commented that he thought Sonny Liston was the greatest heavyweight at some time of Liston's career. Can you help me? I have heard it stated in a documentary or a book somewhere but cannot find it now. I need it to prove a point that Liston was considered by some as the greatest heavyweight when he fought Ali (Clay). Please help if you can.
@MrPerryrice Charles Farrell is one. He has an article "The Case For Sonny Liston." you can read it on my website in the archives-heavyweight history section or perhaps google it.
@coxscorner Yeah, someone else turned me onto that article last week and I checked it out, but no one in there said they considered Listen the greatest, their language was that he was 'one of the greatest', which falls short of what I am looking for. Thanks though.
We all tend to rate the best of our own eras as the best ever. Guys over 50 give it to Ali, younger guys to Holmes, Tyson,etc. On any objective measure Sonny was an all time top 3 fighter.The brutal concussive power this man carried and his sheer indomitable will make him worthy of great respect. RIP Sonny.
@AlexemilyPhelan Im under 50 and like most historians worth their salt consider Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis the top 2 heavyweights in whatever order. Liston top 3 is debateable. He should be top 10 but where he ranks against Foreman, Holmes, Johnson, Dempsey, Lennox Lewis, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson etc is open to debate. IMHO he beats nearly all the great swarmers (Frazier, Marciano, Tyson perhaps Dempsey but I wouldnt bet my life on it), and would take Sonny over Lennox Lewis and the Kltschko's.
@coxscorner Hmmmm, "most historians worth their salt consider Ali & Louis top 2" ???
Like Fleischer or Rose ? Or contemporaries like Hunicutt, Callis, Silver, Casey ? What about trainers like Arcel, Morgan or Hayes ? Fighters maybe? Tunney, Sharkey, Schmeling, Walker, to name a few.
None of these EXPERTS worth their salt ?
None of them have Louis & Ali 1 & 2 !!, or vice versa.
@1saxonwolf Fleischer died in 1972 and didnt see Ali regain title, etc. Never changed his ratings since '58 its been over 50 years since then, lots of fighters he never saw. Rose the same era. Most of the others you name I know and have had conversations with. However they would be in the minority. In the IBRO Poll (of which Hunnicut, Silver, Callis (whom Ive known for 11 years), Casey are all members along with myself had Louis # 1 and Ali # 2. So yeah "Most" is correct.
@coxscorner Fleischer & Rose certainly saw Ali @ his best. They wouldn't have much reason to change their tune from 74' onward.
Do you think it's justifiable to judge Sullivan thru Johnson by the films ? Or for that matter to judge any of the old fighters that you didn't actually see train/fight ?
IMO the"experts" who witnessed the fighters from generation to generation like Fleischer, Rose, Arcel, etc r the ones to judge accurately. How do we know Fitz doesn't belong top 10? Didn't see him.
@1saxonwolf I disagree. In 72 when Fleischer died the jury was still out on Ali's chin and heart. You can't accurately judge a fighter until his career is over. There is enough film from Johnson on to see how he fights. The records also tell us a lot. Opinions vary. There were plenty of other opinions of people who saw these guys fight. Also it depends on what rules your judging by. Fleischer, like Callis is judging by various rules, finish fights and so forth. I judge by 15 round standard.
@coxscorner Ali had gotten off the canvas earlier in his career & Fleischer was at ringside for 1st Frazier fight where he got thumped but didn't quit. Post peak drama for taking beatings shouldn't move you up the rankings.
Marvin Hart is a footnote.
Fitzsimmons is regarded as one of the best ever. A poor comparison to make your point.
" I doubt it", "most" , & 2005 poll is my point. I would bet that nobody in that poll saw anybody prior to Louis. Correct ?
@1saxonwolf Also How do we know Marvin Hart don't belong in the top 10 we didnt see him? Its a straw man argument. Sure maybe Fitz is the greatest of all time I just doubt it. Jeffries was too big and strong for him, Jeff was bigger than most of the guys he fought. Also there is no argument against my "most" comment as I proved my intent was correct. the 2005 IBRO Poll had Louis and Ali 1 and 2. Feel free to disagree, but "most" historians would disagree with you including me.
Doesn't really matter, does it? There is a reason that Joe Louis is #1 on the Ring Magazine list of greatest heavyweights of all time. He had more title defenses than any other heavyweight champ in history. His KO rate is also fairly high (52 of 66 fights), noting that he rarely weighed in heavier than his opponent. Besides, if statistics are not convincing enough, you only have to watch im fight. A master puncher and a master tactician. I'd have no problem rating him #1.
@jorge43273 Me hate Tyson?? your crazy. I love Tyson as a fighter. Did you ever see my Tyson video? It had like 2 million hits b4 the copyright nazi's took it down. You can still see it though if u visit my website. I rate Tyson among the top 10 heavyweights of all time. I also wrote an article on Tyson on my website called Mike Tyson Iron and Clay. You should check it out. Just google coxscorner Im at the top. Go to Archives-Heavyweight history and you can find it there.
@coxscorner - Who did Tyson beat that would make him a top ten heavy? A frozen Spinks? An ancient Holmes? I dont think he would beat any great fighter who wasn't intimidated, which no great fighter would be.
@1899sharkey Spinks was frozen because he was intimated. A lot of Louis opponents were afraid too. Patterson froze against Liston. Thats not Tyson's fault. Holmes was ancient but beat Mercer who was a top 10 contender 4 years later and went the distance with Holyfield. Tyson has the power, speed and skills to be considered a top 10 heavyweight. Kaplan said he had the best Def seen in many years. Same argument could be made against Marciano, who he beat? Old men and bums.
@1899sharkey Also What ATG did Dempsey beat? None. I dont see Tyson folding against fighters who weigh well under 200 pounds. If the argument is quality of opposition who did Jack Johsons beat? A green Langford? A 20 year old McVey? He never fought one contender that was near the top of the food chain. If we are judging by quality of opposition then Muhammad Ali, Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield stand above everyone else. but there is more to judging them than just who they fought.
@coxscorner - Was any of those fighters ever eager to get theirselves d.q.d in the biggest fight of their careers? Tysons bnully act wouldn't work against any of the greats. His whole success depernded on the other guys lack of intestinal fortitude. You're right its not about quality of opp. its about Tysons lack of the great heart the other fighters had. Marciano might have fought bums but he beat all of them. Frazier, Rocky and Dempsey all k.o. Tyson.
@1899sharkey Tyson would flatten Marciano, Frazier and Dempsey inside 2 rounds. Heart only comes into play when the will is tested. They wouldnt be around long enough to test his will. He has the advantage of speed, strength, power and combination punching over the lot of them and only Frazier comes close in terms of defense, as in slip and duck rate. Dempsey was tougher mentally but No one who weighs well under 200 pounds is beating Tyson, your dreaming.
@coxscorner - So all we have to do is weigh them in. I'm surprised to see someone of your stature to place such little emphasis on willpower or i should say lack of willpower. To say these 3 wouldn't of tested Tyson is puzzling to say the least. Tyson isn't overated, he's grossly overated and you've bought into the hype. Tyson had the quit in him, always ready to come out when tested. I'll give you this, he looked great against human punching bags.
@1899sharkey I think Tyson had other assets that make up for his lack of mental toughness. Its not like he just rolled over in 1 round in the fights he lost, he had to be beaten over the course of the fight. Also the later versions of Tyson post -prison lacked much of what made the young Tyson great. We will just have to disagree on Tyson. Im sure we agree on other things. Keep punching.
@1899sharkey I dont buy that 184 pd Dempsey hit harder than Tyson. Tyson was also a better combination puncher, based on film, shorter punches. Dempsey was tougher mentally, and that means something but I just think Tysons advantage in physical attributes, speed, power, strength means its a short fight. It's not like they are going to box for 10 rounds, neither would have to look for the other. I agree that boxing is dying. Unfortunately it looks like MMA will be the future of fighting sports.
@coxscorner -Thanx for the reply. Ithink in this fight Dempseys height and reach advantage might be more of a factor than Tysons 25 pound adv. ( i put Jack at 190). Just different opinions, i just dont think Tyson overwhelms a Dempsey.
@illmatic826 - Lol... and Mark Zuckerman is smarter than Albert Einstein. Give it up novice, not even Tyson believes he could whip Dempsey. When the bully cannot intimidate he becomes intimidated. Tyson was the most chicken of all types of bullys, the kind that knocked over old women. A real bully cracks heads for the mob. Tysons whole demeanor would change very quickly against Dempsey, i dont think he makes it out of the first round.Now back to your vid game.
@1899sharkey Fuck dempsey & the gay ass mob, the mob is a bunch of cowards who hide behind guns & end up dead at a young age or die of some fucked up illness hahaha Capone got a STD LOL, & you just racist anyway you think that every old white boxer could beat every great black boxer, man look here Tyson would make dempsey his bitch, even you dont believe that a little ass dempsey would beat Iron Mike, but yeah sure Tyson idolizes Dempsey but he would rip dempseys head off in 10 seconds.
@coxscorner Thats a frickin joke thats not funny. Tyson better defense than Dempsey is laughable. Frazier too. U think slip rate is defense ? I'm not on the bash Tyson bandwagon or the great Marciano one. They all could beat tyson though, which I don't say lightly. BTW ,Tom Gibbons was a great fighter. Top ten LHW.
@AlexemilyPhelan Of who was in their era,true but take ,for example the same holyfield that outpointed foreman would have no doubt outpointed any year liston.He had enough strength and ability to take shots enough to nullify listons attack and counter with blistering combinations as he did vs foreman in 91.
@fadethetrade - Liston k.o.s Holyfield inside two rounds. Comparing A prime Liston to a 91 Foreman is a bit of a reach. George still had great power but was slower than molasses and was even "outboxed" by Morrison.
@1899sharkey Holyfield of 94-98 would outpoint liston.Holyfield would outbox liston.Holy had a chin strong enough to ride the liston bombs and he would need a few rounds to figure a way to slip the liston jab.Holy was much faster and that would be his edge.Liston was nothing more then a shavers or lyle with a jab.He wasnt numb banging as you think because aside from a few short fights,most of his wins went longer then you might think.Check out boxrec.foreman,shavers were much faster ko artists
@1899sharkey In fact,holyfield would beat liston a lot like his fights with tyson.Why would you think liston could walk in and ploddingly catch holy all night if tyson ,who was faster ,couldn't get thru holys craftyness in nulllifying tysons attack.Same strategy with the hard hitting liston and holy would survive and win more then 6 rounds.
@AlexemilyPhelan Tyson late 87,greatest ever,Beats ali,clay,lewis,holmes,foreman,liston,louis,marciano.If he was tested by all of these in late 87,he would have beaten all of them.Too much,speed,power,chin,defense,ellusiveness.None of them except a Clay who runs for 15 or a young foreman if he gets lucky enough to lead the attack in the first 30 seconds of the fight.Otherwise tyson of late 87 ko's foreman .If foreman could be massively hurt and rocked by Lyle,then a classic tyson hurts him too
@fadethetrade as exciting as Tyson was in that period, he never faced anyone of the quality of the name's you mentioned. Ok, Larry Holmes perhaps but Holmes was well past his prime and had come out of retirement. Certainly Ali/Clay, Liston and Foreman would have beaten an 87 Tyson. It's easy to look good when your opponents aren't up to the caliber of the legends you speak of. Yes, some were good fighters, very good fighters even, but not great, except the past his prime Holmes.
Liston was a great boxer/puncher.He had the most devastating jab maybe ever,and is easily in the top 5 of hardest hitting heavyweights ever.The only record that could verify his age,is his arrest record.He was atleast 35 when he fought ali.Ali was at his apex,the liston of the mid to late 50's puts ali to sleep,boom,splat...real quick
I actually believe Sonny Liston would beat George Foreman in a head to head fight. Listons left jab would probably keep George away for a bit because he had so much power behind it and he clearly had better boxing skills and defense. Sonny had very underated head movement and could probably slip many of Foremans lefts. And he had more stamina than George. Plus I have a difficulty seeing Foreman knocking Liston out early but it would be an awesome fight.
There should be a rule when it comes to Tyson discussions and how he measures up against the atgs. We know Tyson squandered boatloads of talent. In asking how Tyson would fare against certain fighters, let's only look at Tyson in his prime, no matter how short it was. Don't duck the hypothetical question by saying Tyson couldn't beat so and so because of the fights he lost after he abandoned his training. The real question is how does Tyson in his prime measure up against the atgs in theirs.
@smolakmcdougal - Absolutely. We obviously should rate all fighters in their prime. Tyson right in the middle of his prime(apparently lasted six months) would not have beat any atg's. Tyson's weaknesses would have surfaced at ANY time during his career. He had "enough" to beat good fighters but not a great fighter with great willpower. Let me repeat it- Tyson in his prime loses to ALL the atg's.
@fadethetrade you are in fantasy land. Holyfield has something Tyson does not have: character. I'm sure Tyson could have gotten a fight with Bowe or given Douglas a rematch if he WANTED. Tyson needs to get inside and close in order to be effective. Bowe could, as Douglas and Lewis did, defeat Tyson with the basic left jab. As for the Real Deal, the only shot Tyson landed on Holyfield was a 4 tooth combo to the ear.
In hindsight,had the same Bruno of 1989 fought tyson instead of holmes fighting tyson ,,bruno wouldn't have made it out of the second round and tyson wouldn't have felt one shot landed from bruno. Even smith and holmes siad very high praising of tysons defensive ability.Holmes also said comparing tyson s punching ability with earnie shavers,holmes said that shavers hit you like a mack truck,tyson hits you like a speeding ferrari.Thats evidence of a tyson we only got to see for a short time.
Damatos vision was to develop a fighter with great speed close to ali's and power,close to foreman and utilize the short height by slipping and being always slipping and side to side and continue it for 15 rounds.This is how rooney had tyson trained to do in that short period.Once a few of those small nuances were abandoned it made the difference in his approach,his opponents approach and the outcomes.All this came to an end in the bruno 1989 fight where even a dog like bruno almost had tyson.
Sonny was a the best fighter in the world until 1964 when he met a very good Ali who was at his absolute best. No one would have beaten Ali in 1964, no one.
Sonny was a great fighter before and after the two Ali fights. He knocked out 14 guys in a row after the second disaster with Ali and did not lose a fight until 1969. Even at that time when he was pushing 40 yrs old, guys were still ducking him. Frazier would not give him a fight. We remember you Sonny, some of us still remember.
i like liston as a fighter but i dont think top 5. top 10 no question but top 5 is pushing it a bit when you consider guys like jack dempsey, jack johnson, gene tunney, joe louis, rocky marciano,muhammed ali, joe frazier, george forman among a few others for me the top 3 are(in no order)joe louis, rocky marciano and muhammed ali with probably joe frazier and jack dempsey coming after for the 5, liston would be in my next 5 to make my 10 best list but he's for sure one of the greatest!
@anselmochevelle Dempsey and Jack Johnson can not hold a candle to Sonny Liston. First off Dempsey is 180 pounds, secondly Jack Johnson fought in an era where boxing was flat footed and basically wrestling with very few punches thrown. Rocky Marciano beat up a bunch of old men and had awful style that anyone who moves and isn't pushing 40 or 100 fights could stop.
@anselmochevelle - I'm with you I've got Sonny rated 8 on my list althogh Icouldn't argue with anyone rating him as high as fifth. Sonny was at his best around '60 before he even won the title.
@1899sharkey He was too slow to be rated that high.The strength means hill of beans if the opponent makes it so theres nothing to hit.The holyfield that easily outboxed foreman would box rings around any year liston.Holyfield would rattle liston all night with devastating combinations liston wouldn't even see coming.Tyson of mid 80's ko's liston,bowe,tucker,holmes,foreman,douglas,lewis all beat liston.
@fadethetrade - like I've said before Sonny would have the canibal in trouble in the first and finish him in the second. Holyfield would not last 5 rounds. Tyson would quit against any of the fighters you mentioned. I've seen some of your posts and realize you are a tyson lover but get over it , your boys not even top 20.Dont bother responding as I will not waste any more time on the tin man.
Watching these clips I'm starting to understand why Ali was an 8-1 underdog in their first fight; of course, no one anticipated that Liston's awesome power would be nullified by Ali being too fast for him to hit. I am beginning to think Liston is somewhat under rated though. And I heard he used to beat up on white racist cops which makes me like him even more.
dude10- the best guess is 32- Liston was crushed by the negative response to beating patterson for the title- even pres kennedy wanted floyd to win the rematch so as good would concur evil. Sonny had thought he would be embraced much as Louis had been and was decimated by portrayals The 88in reach is 30 year memory- the fact that Foreman was 21 and liston was 38 when sparring means what advantage? Foreman admits being schooled by Sonny who had him backing away A prime Sonny makes Lyle look lame
i think cus, bill, jimmy and kevin trained young mike on this model, o if mike just stayed home and kept on training he truly would have been great.......thanks a lot don and robbin you f'k'n bastards
I was 14 in 1964 when Sonny fought Ali the first time. I have always been a huge fan. Sonny quit the first fight with Ali because he knew he coud not beat him. He hit the deck in fight 2 for the same reason. Sonny was the best fighter of his time. His time ran out in 1964. No one in history could have beaten Ali in 1964. He was at his absolut prime. Sonny was a great fighter and deserves respect of fans like us. He had a tough life and made the most of it. A true tough guy.
im very young only 23 my favourite was tyson just his footwork head movement power frightening combinations but liston was unreal 2 watch i loved watching his jab he was awesome 2 watch
People who were around and saw him all know what a monster fighter this guy was. Yes he was older than listed but only a few years. He aged quickly. At one time Foreman worked with Sonny and old Liston DOMINATED the sessions always backing up george with his 88 inch reach. Goerge picked up his surly act at this time. Liston in his prime was the supreme destroyer of all time eclipsing Dempsey, Louis. Rocky, Frazier, Foreman and Tyson. Ponder the truth.
First of all Sonny had an 84 inch reach not 88. Secondly George was 20 years old and still very green during those sessions. I wouldnt put too much into that. Liston is a top 10 ATG heavyweight though, no doubt about that.
yeah.ok. my first impression of liston was watching him vs leotis live on tv-I was 11yo. whatever- Concerning Liston of early 60s who would of beat him? Maybe Clay or Louis the night of the 2nd max fight NOT rocky or jack or joe or george or larry or mike thats for sure. That would make him better than a top 10 in my book. THE thing is he hardly rates top 10 in any expert lists. It dont worry me though. I just try to see clearly here. your thoughts on the psych thing?
@coxscorner Foreman was very much affraid of Liston when was his sparringpartner and had hugh admiration for him. Offcourse Foreman was still green then, but he was Foreman so you better believe Liston must have been one bad man. In fact I believe Liston would beat Tyson, so that would bring him in the top ten list. It's his powerfull jab, it doesn't look very spectacular but it's extremely effective. You can dominate a fight with such a jab. Douglas beat Tyson with his huge jab.
@bcibibcibcpCB BY THE WAY Foeman was HITTING ALOT HARDER TEN Liston.. sonny liston never cut compare with foemans power.. but yes Foeman lokked up 2 liston he wannet 2 be like him and its crazye 2 think that Foeman alot stronger and taller and bigger guy ten Liston was afraid at that time.. but as i said that was AT THAT TIME Foeman would still win agienst liston i say that.. NUFF SAID
@capablemachine although he had an 84" reach, liston was short and old and, if not for Ali, would have been champ for a long time-all of of Ali's victims of the 60's would have fallen to sonny.
@largelester I believe ali had an awfull generation of contenders in the 60's,even liston was finished by the mid 60's.A bum named everet martin ko'd liston in 69.Ali fought tomato cans like midenburger,foley,terrell,patterson,chuvalo.these guys have scary names and somewhat inflated reputations but they were basically tomato cans.Clevelend williams was a stand up old robot who a young classic tyson would run thru in 3 rounds.
@1899sharkey I was thinking of big foot everett martin but it was leotis martin.Listons problem was that he was alot like bonecrusher smith,probably no better in his prime.This might sound condescending to listons ability but I truly believe he was a big slow bangor with a heavy long jab but if his jab and power were as good as people say,he would have been twice the successful fighter that he was.But he didn't look great only against patterson who had a glass jaw anyway.
@fadethetrade - Sonny cleaned out the division even before winning the title. How much more succesful could he have been? Floyd was k.o.d by two big hitters but took the punches of Quarry,Chuvalo, and Bonavena. Floyd was 37 when he beat Bonavena, how was Tyson doing at 37?
@1899sharkey I sent you a personal message about the skinny of things. Judging from holyfields boxing lesson he gave tpo foreman,he would certainly outbox sonny liston.Judging from tysons ability to take the smashes from ruddock who hit harder with the left smash then liston did,the younger tyson beats liston.
@fadethetrade - I did not even read your p.m. I've already heard all the Tyson excuses. Right smack in the middle of his "prime" Sonny destroys him. Dont care to debate the point anymore. Thanks
@1899sharkey I didn't send you an excuse.Just wanted to know if you were like those other schmucks who can't comprehend the different tysons of pre rooney and post rooney.In hindsight,his 8 title destructions before his 22nd birthday against a few common opponents of lewis and holyfield and looking better against them,certainly proves he was the best heavyweight in history before the age of 23.
@1899sharkey No. When he fought between the age of 20 and 22,just experienced enough to compete with the top3 of all time and just ending with his best up to date ,then losingALL his focus after march 1988 by marrying,partying,training for less then 3 weeks at a time with 1 yr breaks, and joining King and abandoning his damato/rooney/atlas techniques that,contrary to what you believe,would work on the guys who beat him later when he retired from serious training and fighting after 1988.
@1899sharkey Tysons best ability came in Dec 87 to jan 88.This is the period he knocked tillis down and gave tillis a sparring lesson and retired the Bull,Oliver mccall,with a 2 punch body attack that mccall said "adios" and he walked out of the session.The same mccall that ko'd Lewis.Tyson 's last great performance was holmes ,not spinks.He was already declining mrch 88 Tubbs after his turbulant marriage.Then he stops training and fighting to a once a year schedule and becomes a head hunter
@1899sharkey You've never seen anything so interesting watching tyson in dec.1987 sparr in front of a japanese tv station beating on tillis and making mccall retire with body punches.That period,he beats holyfield,lewis,douglas and bowe.
@fadethetrade Liston got into the game late in life. As you no doubt know he was 5 years older than what was official. Didnt have his first pro fight till age 1953 which would make him 25. Guys are winning championship belts at that age. Had he started 10 years earlier who knows what he may have been
@genericgeorge But sonny sort of struggled with small heavyweights even in the 50's.Look at his boxrec.Most of the heavyweights back then weighed around 190.Fighters were much smaller back then and this big bear couldnt put these guys out in 3 or less as a foreman and tyson did with bigger guys.Then liston gets totally outboxed.Dundee said liston was too short to beat foreman ,had they fought.HAd a tyson in his 87-88 form been in those days,he woudlnt have gone more then 4 rounds in any fight!
@fadethetrade exactly what i mean by getting into boxing so late. Maybe he could have learned to box had to started early instead of being cumbersome slugger relying on power to win him matches. Maybe maybe not.
@fadethetrade that was Leotis Martin, who was a rising star and Liston's next to last fight when he was at least 42 years old. Although he did drop Liston with a lucky right hand in the 9th, Martin's career ended after Liston chopped his face up leaving him legally blind. Liston also carved over 100 stitches into Chuck Wepner's face around the same time. I don't know if a 42 year old Tyson could defeat a 42 year old Liston
@largelester Liston was too slow.Any fast heavyweight with a solid to concrete chin beats him,Ali,Holmes,,Holyfield,Tyson 86-88,even a guy like jimmy young who beat foreman could outpoint any year liston.
@largelester It was hardly lucky punch. Sonny was absolutely bleeding and physically spent by the time he ko'd him. Martin was his sparring partner for a time.
@opjkdg liston was overrated.guys like holyfield,tucker,even douglas would box rings around him,tyson that ko'd berbick,ko's any year liston.After ali alot of fighters learned the art of self preservasion but all of listons opponents in the 50's and 60's knew only one thing,go in there and fight him.
@opjkdg I wholeheartedly concur! nobody hit as hard consistently as Sonny! the way in which he hit that heavy bag was was indicative; Tyson was awesome as well on the heavy bag but not quite at the level of Sonny's power; close though.
The psychological factor in boxing is usually overlooked yet critical in evaluating fighters, Listons case is most interesting. His problems are well documented. He believed all the negativity of his life would go away after he won the title, and thought he would be revered much like joe louis. Instead the public and media were revolted that such a low life criminal could be champ. Even pres Kennedy told floyd on tv that he hoped he won rematch for all goodness. This crushed Liston evermore
Sonny Liston Was 36 years old when he fought Clay. I you have an objective bone in your body, and watch how fast he was in his prime in the late 50's he would have easily bet the big mouth jerk. He came from a horrible horrible life. not like Clay who grew up in a middle class intact black family. Now who REALLY KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO EXPERIENCE REAL RACISM
@kettleriv - ALI was just too good, fast, fast moving, slick, smart, powerful, tough and deteremined for Liston. Liston was great but Ali was the greatest.
@bisquik3006 your probably correct but the motivation was simply he knew the fight was un-winnable vs Clay. It's either that or get beaten, swollen & shredded up by the younger faster Cassius.
You could say that about Liston, sure. Even though Ali was completely bind in one of the rounds against Liston, Ali fought through it and made Liston quit on his stool. As for Duran, you don't know much if anything about Duran's history. He chose not to continue in the 2nd fight with Leonard because he felt Leonard didn't want to fight him, and he didn't. No way in hell that Leonard could have ever knocked him out!
Leonard KOed an undefeated Hearns in Hearns's prime. In the 2nd fight Duran was so outclassed that Leonard was clowning him and hitting him 5 times to Duran's every miss. The KO was coming, Duran knew it, and Macho Man Fists Of Stone couldn't stand the idea of Leonard flattening him in front of the entire boxing world. If Leonard didn't want to fight him, as you claim, Duran would have ruthlessly KOed him rather than quit like the coward he came off as. He never has or will live it down.
Yes, he KO'd Hearns in Hearns' prime, but everyone knows that Hearns had an eggshell chin. Leonard could definitely punch, but despite the KO from Hearns, who was one of the hardest punchers of all time, Duran had one of the best chins in boxing history. I still don't think Leonard was powerful enough to knock out Duran.
I agree with Duran's chin-just not your belief as to why he quit. Do recall that Leonard was in his prime as well and he had numerous KOs. I watched the fight live (closed circuit) and that gives it such a different feel then you can ever get in replay. My opinion was shared by all who I spoke to during and after the fight. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for a civil conversation. When boxing & YouTube comments combine, it usually deteriorates into "you're a fag" & "fuck you".
I guess we will. Thank you for a civil conversation as well. It's a great relief to talk with someone on the net with a shred of intelligence. Totally agree with you about conversations combining boxing & YouTube. You think it's bad with the boxing community? I won't even tell you what it's like on other sites. But it's always great to talk with a fellow boxing fan.
It dosen't matter how he "felt" Leonard was fighting him and beating him. This is Boxing, the sweet science. If he wanted a gaurenteed brawl he should have gone to tough man competition instead of a Boxing ring.
Here's the thing: Leonard was in his prime at welterweight. Duran was just acceptionally good at welterweight, not in his prime, not at his best. Duran was also an acceptional boxer with great, underrated technique. It's not like he was a bum. If Leonard had been a lightweight, where Duran was at his invincible best, I'm pretty sure we would've seen a different outcome.
@BoxerLife5150 first of all leonard said b4 the fight that he was going to fight flat footed and thats why he lost because he was playing durans game which is brawling face to face and leonard cant cope with that so the second fight he said im going to fight him not flat footed and he won.
All Duran needed for a guaranteed brawl was to show up motivated and in shape. He did the first time and whipped Leonard. Ray had nothing to bother Duran at his best.
Duran's antics prior to the rematch are well attested. I laugh when folks try to paint that 'fight' as some kind of masterclass. Duran was a bloated slug and Leonard did nothing besides run like a scalded cat. He landed not one meaningful punch, before Duran dismissed him for being a weenie.
only a gun could stop HIM...
maurrosa1 1 month ago
Sonny "the beast" Liston
mrzlcumrzlcu 2 months ago
fadethetrade must b the biggest dumbest dope of all time.....
2000paulb 3 months ago
with Liston's 84" reach, Tyson would have a hard time getting his teeth around his ear
largelester 3 months ago
Hes in my top ten for shore. His bouts with Williams were epic.
squirilman009 4 months ago
IMO I think Sonny Liston along with Floyd Patterson are one of the most deserving boxers and Sonny was underrated just cause he lost to Ali twice but I think he can beat several of ATGs
Brownpride480 6 months ago
@Brownpride480 - I for one agree. Sonny is a top ten heavy,who was way past his best when he fought Ali. Would have been a handful for any fighter in history.Patterson is underappreciated because of his losses to big hitters Liston and Johanson, he aquitted hiself well against a lot of good heavys. One very nice gentleman also.
1899sharkey 6 months ago
@1899sharkey and I bet if Floyd Patterson stayed as a light heavyweight he could of been an ATG though he's still capable of winning the World Heavyweight title and beated some Legends like Archie Moore even though he was past his prime but Patterson still did it regardless of his small weight
Brownpride480 6 months ago
@Brownpride480 Floyds fight with Chuvalo in the early 60's was fight of the year,I believe. I thought his win over Bonavena in '72 was impressive given the fact that it was 16 years after he first won the title. He won the undisputed belt twice, which is nothing to sneeze at!
1899sharkey 6 months ago
@1899sharkey and I've just read your others comments that's about Mike Tyson and yes he maybe too overrated by the public but I still think he's one of the greatest heavyweight and the only reason Tyson's never faced any real opponents in his prime years is because there was no good heavyweights at the time and I wouldn't count Lennox Lewis as one of the great boxers since he barely started his pro career 3 years after Tyson won the World Championship belts
Brownpride480 6 months ago
@Brownpride480 -Tyson was great when he fought men that were intimidated. When he fought guys that weren't intimidated he became not only intimidated but a very ordinary fighter. Weak stamina along with low intestinal fortitude would be fatal aghainst any atg.
1899sharkey 6 months ago
@1899sharkey I guess will never find out how great Tyson was since he didn't even get to face one great opponent in his prime years cause there is none and if he still had Cus D'mato and Kevin Rooney on his side he would of been a much better boxer than you expect and probably could of had a longer undefeated streak but I wouldn't go too far about Tyson saying he's better then Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis
Brownpride480 6 months ago
@1899sharkey and he also could of not been intimidated by the brave fighters like Holyfield if he never fired Rooney and Let Don King use him as his money-earning machine but IMO he would still lose to Holyfield in his prime but in a much better fight like a hard fought UD and he probably would of have a chance of beating several atgs depending on their styles like Marciano seems like a good one for him despite his tremendous heart but maybe would lose to him by TKO like Frazier vs Foreman
Brownpride480 6 months ago
If there was ever a hvywt. that weight didn't matter it would seem to be Dempsey. If the lighter man hits harder and is just as strong, weight really becomes negative in a long fight.I like Mike Silvers opinion that 185 pounds is enough to be a great heavy. Skill and will trump 30 pounds. We just dont have any great fighters anymore, the infrastructure is not there anymore to develop fighters. We have a tiny fraction of the fighters we once had.
1899sharkey 6 months ago
Opinions vary. Dempsey was easier to hit with a jab than Tyson. Dempsey was momentarily rocked by Georges Carpentier. How much did he weigh? Tommy Gibbons a great lthvywt, so? Light-heavyweights dont last 2 rounds with Tyson. Some of you people havn't learned an element of boxing and that is some guys are just too strong to box. You have to fight them off. No light-heavy is lasting with Tyson. Hank Kaplan was the 1 who said Tyson had great defense argue with him.
coxscorner 7 months ago
@coxscorner Gibbons brought up in response to what ATG did JD beat? Which u could throw in Levinsky & Carpentier too.
Weight matters, no doubt. You still have to be able to land effective punch. Plenty of lighter fighters go > 2 rnds with Tyson.
I'll stick with Arcel, no champion post Dempsey(prime) would beat him.
1saxonwolf 6 months ago
@1saxonwolf This goes back to my statement that there is an element to boxing that some do not get and that is some guys are just too strong too box, you have to be able to fight them off or make them respect your punch. Harry Greb was like that, you couldn't just box him, although Greb was 160-65 and not a big puncher. Lt-heavyweight boxers are not going to be able to keep Tyson off them, that is my point. I don't need Arcel's opinion. I have a deep enuff understanding to think for myself.
coxscorner 6 months ago
@coxscorner You do need Arcel's opinion ! We all do. Were u around to see Dempsey in camp ?, Louis ? Judging by film. Equal to be in camp or ringside ? No. Legends r made for reasons. Someone like Arcel who witnessed Dempsey thru Tyson is to be heard with high regard. Thinking for yourself is a given, opinions r opinions. We all have one. Some matter more.
The majority of HW champs were < 200 lbs when they won the title. Your logic is putting Tyson in some lofty places.
1saxonwolf 6 months ago
@1saxonwolf We just will have to agree to disagree on this one. You have my opinion and I have nothing further to add. Just beating on a dead horse now.
coxscorner 6 months ago
@coxscorner Good enough. Smack, smack, smack. lol.
1saxonwolf 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Here's an anecdote that Liston fans will like. Clay travelled to Vegas and found Liston in a casino. As Liston rolled the dice, Clay yelled, “Look at the big ugly bear, he can't even shoot craps. He can't do nothing right.” Liston threw down the dice and walked up to Clay: “Listen, if you don’t get out of here in 10 seconds, I’m going to pull that fucking tongue out of your mouth and stick it up your ass.” Clay was scared as hell.
laurab5400 7 months ago
I think it's like this:
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jack Johnson
3. Sonny Liston
4. Joe Louis
5.Larry holmes
Then, in no order, Marciano, Dempsey, Tyson ('88), walcott, charles, Foreman, frazier
carmodifire 8 months ago
how would you like liston if he was your gay prison cell mate????
ugotpimp 8 months ago
no1 wood wanna trash talk liston at a press conference now a days theyd be dead when they stepped in the ring ali got away with it but only because he ran all night no heavyweight can run like ali did and i dont think they wood wanna either but he won so it is what it is
lee1990lee 8 months ago
Para mi los mejores 16 pesos pesados de la historia son: 16-Floyd Patterson; 15-Jim Jeffries; 14-Evander Holyfield; 13; "Jersey"Joe Walcott; 12-SONNY LISTON; 11-Mike Tyson; 10-Larry Holmes; 9-Ezzard Charles; 8-George Foreman; 7-Joe Frazier; 6-Gene Tunney; 5-Jack Dempsey; 4-Jack Johnson; 3-Rocky Marciano; 2-JOE LOUIS; 1-MUHAMMAD ALI. Yo tomo en cuenta varias cosas; su potencia, su resistencia,los rivales que les tocó combatir y quien hubiera ganado si se hubieran enfrentado en su mejor momento.
rbrtdornel 9 months ago
He was an incredible fighter and one of the hardest punchers in boxing history. It's just unfortunate his whole life was so damn sad. I mean, abandoned by his mother at a young age and kicked around from foster home to correctional facility, never accepted where he went and constantly hounded by hatred and never accepted.
joefasho7777 9 months ago
@joefasho7777
And then fucked over by the mob for his entire career. The bastards made him quit that title fight whilst sitting on the corner stool in the 6th round FFS.
None gave Sonny any break that didn't have shit on the underneath. They joked back then that the best thing about him was his missus Geraldine. From a humble background, she was educated, intensely private and shy, and she purely loved the man - and he loved her back the same.
krakenwave 7 months ago
His reach was insane. One of the longest in all of HW boxing history. I believe it was longer than Lennox's.
Crussman499 11 months ago
The two hardest hitters in heavyweight boxing in my opinion were Sonny Liston and Rocky Marciano.The next hardest were George Foreman and Joe Frazier. I am not discounting people like Joe Louis , Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson.They were all great champions, but i stick with Liston and Marciano.
madmike180250 1 year ago
@madmike180250 Lol the hardest hitter in boxing was Shavers, it could be Liston. Rocky was a great puncher but not in Foremans league or the other two i just mentioned.
MultiGreat1 10 months ago
Comment removed
madmike180250 10 months ago
@MultiGreat1 Apologies i totally forgot about Shavers. You're quite right he was a hard hitter, possibly the hardest , there will always be debates on that subject. Earnie unfortunately couldn't take a punch as his many losses by kayo showed. I am not taking anything away from his ability or his punching power .which is beyond doubt. As you also mentioned Foreman could hit as well. While on the subject how highly would you rate Larry Holmes . I think he deserves a mention.Regards Mike.
madmike180250 10 months ago
@madmike180250 I'm talking 'The hardest punchers in boxing' none of that P4P B.S. The hardest puncher in boxing is either Earnie Shavers or Sonny Liston. Foreman is right behind them. Larry Holmes punches hard but so do most heavyweights, Mike Tyson is a better puncher than all of the fighters I just named and by far a harder puncher than Larry Holmes. To sum it all up: Hardest puncher ever: Sonny Liston or Earnie Shavers. Best puncher ever: Joe louis.
MultiGreat1 10 months ago
@MultiGreat1 Point taken . I can't argue with you as you make some valid points.I think i'll have to agree with you. Hardest puchers ever Liston or Shavers. How do you separate them? God knows.
madmike180250 10 months ago
@madmike180250 Sonny's jab was close to shavers's right or maybe thats a bit of a stretch but I reckon Sonny's right was harder than Shavers right. Sonny's jab is miles higher than the jab of earnie. Its really hard to call, from what I have seen Sonny's jab and right were as strong as Earnie's best punch which was his right. I reckon Sonny was the hardest puncher ever, and if he had started boxing from 15-17 then his power would be way above that of Shavers.
MultiGreat1 9 months ago
@MultiGreat1 To carry on this discussion if Liston and Shavers had been around at the same time and both had been at the peak of their powers . What a fight that would have been . But we will never know unfotunately. But it's good to speculate.
madmike180250 9 months ago
@MultiGreat1 To carry on the discussion what if Liston and Shavers had met and both fighters had been at the peak of their power . What a fight it would have been. Unfortunately we will never know what would have happened . Still it's nice to speculate.
madmike180250 9 months ago
my god that left hook at 2:34 lifted him off his feet
witn3ss 1 year ago
coxscorner my msn in profile! Sonny Liston The Big, Bad Bear
sexykatie90 1 year ago
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1899sharkey 1 year ago
I love it how that guy is throwing the medicine ball at him at full strength, and Sonny just stands and catches it with a "is that all you got?" attitude. Awesome. =)
H0tkebab 1 year ago
I love the power punchers, the killers of boxing. Although it took YEARS of training to mold them in to their correct form, the killer instinct they possess as well as the POTENTIAL to be a power puncher is god given. Guys like Tyson, Liston, Dempsey, Marciano were born killers, imho Dempsey was the best of them all
Ricky42791 1 year ago 6
@Ricky42791 I am in search of a boxing expert who commented that he thought Sonny Liston was the greatest heavyweight at some time of Liston's career. Can you help me? I have heard it stated in a documentary or a book somewhere but cannot find it now. I need it to prove a point that Liston was considered by some as the greatest heavyweight when he fought Ali (Clay). Please help if you can.
MrPerryrice 3 months ago
@MrPerryrice Charles Farrell is one. He has an article "The Case For Sonny Liston." you can read it on my website in the archives-heavyweight history section or perhaps google it.
coxscorner 3 months ago
@coxscorner Yeah, someone else turned me onto that article last week and I checked it out, but no one in there said they considered Listen the greatest, their language was that he was 'one of the greatest', which falls short of what I am looking for. Thanks though.
MrPerryrice 3 months ago
We all tend to rate the best of our own eras as the best ever. Guys over 50 give it to Ali, younger guys to Holmes, Tyson,etc. On any objective measure Sonny was an all time top 3 fighter.The brutal concussive power this man carried and his sheer indomitable will make him worthy of great respect. RIP Sonny.
AlexemilyPhelan 1 year ago 4
@AlexemilyPhelan Im under 50 and like most historians worth their salt consider Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis the top 2 heavyweights in whatever order. Liston top 3 is debateable. He should be top 10 but where he ranks against Foreman, Holmes, Johnson, Dempsey, Lennox Lewis, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson etc is open to debate. IMHO he beats nearly all the great swarmers (Frazier, Marciano, Tyson perhaps Dempsey but I wouldnt bet my life on it), and would take Sonny over Lennox Lewis and the Kltschko's.
coxscorner 1 year ago
Comment removed
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@coxscorner Hmmmm, "most historians worth their salt consider Ali & Louis top 2" ???
Like Fleischer or Rose ? Or contemporaries like Hunicutt, Callis, Silver, Casey ? What about trainers like Arcel, Morgan or Hayes ? Fighters maybe? Tunney, Sharkey, Schmeling, Walker, to name a few.
None of these EXPERTS worth their salt ?
None of them have Louis & Ali 1 & 2 !!, or vice versa.
1saxonwolf 11 months ago
@1saxonwolf Fleischer died in 1972 and didnt see Ali regain title, etc. Never changed his ratings since '58 its been over 50 years since then, lots of fighters he never saw. Rose the same era. Most of the others you name I know and have had conversations with. However they would be in the minority. In the IBRO Poll (of which Hunnicut, Silver, Callis (whom Ive known for 11 years), Casey are all members along with myself had Louis # 1 and Ali # 2. So yeah "Most" is correct.
coxscorner 11 months ago
@coxscorner Fleischer & Rose certainly saw Ali @ his best. They wouldn't have much reason to change their tune from 74' onward.
Do you think it's justifiable to judge Sullivan thru Johnson by the films ? Or for that matter to judge any of the old fighters that you didn't actually see train/fight ?
IMO the"experts" who witnessed the fighters from generation to generation like Fleischer, Rose, Arcel, etc r the ones to judge accurately. How do we know Fitz doesn't belong top 10? Didn't see him.
1saxonwolf 11 months ago
@1saxonwolf I disagree. In 72 when Fleischer died the jury was still out on Ali's chin and heart. You can't accurately judge a fighter until his career is over. There is enough film from Johnson on to see how he fights. The records also tell us a lot. Opinions vary. There were plenty of other opinions of people who saw these guys fight. Also it depends on what rules your judging by. Fleischer, like Callis is judging by various rules, finish fights and so forth. I judge by 15 round standard.
coxscorner 11 months ago
@coxscorner Ali had gotten off the canvas earlier in his career & Fleischer was at ringside for 1st Frazier fight where he got thumped but didn't quit. Post peak drama for taking beatings shouldn't move you up the rankings.
Marvin Hart is a footnote.
Fitzsimmons is regarded as one of the best ever. A poor comparison to make your point.
" I doubt it", "most" , & 2005 poll is my point. I would bet that nobody in that poll saw anybody prior to Louis. Correct ?
Again, is it equitable ?
Thanks
1saxonwolf 11 months ago
@1saxonwolf Also How do we know Marvin Hart don't belong in the top 10 we didnt see him? Its a straw man argument. Sure maybe Fitz is the greatest of all time I just doubt it. Jeffries was too big and strong for him, Jeff was bigger than most of the guys he fought. Also there is no argument against my "most" comment as I proved my intent was correct. the 2005 IBRO Poll had Louis and Ali 1 and 2. Feel free to disagree, but "most" historians would disagree with you including me.
coxscorner 11 months ago
@1saxonwolf
Doesn't really matter, does it? There is a reason that Joe Louis is #1 on the Ring Magazine list of greatest heavyweights of all time. He had more title defenses than any other heavyweight champ in history. His KO rate is also fairly high (52 of 66 fights), noting that he rarely weighed in heavier than his opponent. Besides, if statistics are not convincing enough, you only have to watch im fight. A master puncher and a master tactician. I'd have no problem rating him #1.
MrRoyalFatness 7 months ago
@coxscorner u hate tyson...but i h=think tyson would knock every1 out u just mentioned...loved by few hated by many respected by all
jorge43273 7 months ago
@jorge43273 Me hate Tyson?? your crazy. I love Tyson as a fighter. Did you ever see my Tyson video? It had like 2 million hits b4 the copyright nazi's took it down. You can still see it though if u visit my website. I rate Tyson among the top 10 heavyweights of all time. I also wrote an article on Tyson on my website called Mike Tyson Iron and Clay. You should check it out. Just google coxscorner Im at the top. Go to Archives-Heavyweight history and you can find it there.
coxscorner 7 months ago
@coxscorner - Who did Tyson beat that would make him a top ten heavy? A frozen Spinks? An ancient Holmes? I dont think he would beat any great fighter who wasn't intimidated, which no great fighter would be.
1899sharkey 7 months ago
@1899sharkey Spinks was frozen because he was intimated. A lot of Louis opponents were afraid too. Patterson froze against Liston. Thats not Tyson's fault. Holmes was ancient but beat Mercer who was a top 10 contender 4 years later and went the distance with Holyfield. Tyson has the power, speed and skills to be considered a top 10 heavyweight. Kaplan said he had the best Def seen in many years. Same argument could be made against Marciano, who he beat? Old men and bums.
coxscorner 7 months ago
@1899sharkey Also What ATG did Dempsey beat? None. I dont see Tyson folding against fighters who weigh well under 200 pounds. If the argument is quality of opposition who did Jack Johsons beat? A green Langford? A 20 year old McVey? He never fought one contender that was near the top of the food chain. If we are judging by quality of opposition then Muhammad Ali, Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield stand above everyone else. but there is more to judging them than just who they fought.
coxscorner 7 months ago
@coxscorner - Was any of those fighters ever eager to get theirselves d.q.d in the biggest fight of their careers? Tysons bnully act wouldn't work against any of the greats. His whole success depernded on the other guys lack of intestinal fortitude. You're right its not about quality of opp. its about Tysons lack of the great heart the other fighters had. Marciano might have fought bums but he beat all of them. Frazier, Rocky and Dempsey all k.o. Tyson.
1899sharkey 7 months ago
@1899sharkey Tyson would flatten Marciano, Frazier and Dempsey inside 2 rounds. Heart only comes into play when the will is tested. They wouldnt be around long enough to test his will. He has the advantage of speed, strength, power and combination punching over the lot of them and only Frazier comes close in terms of defense, as in slip and duck rate. Dempsey was tougher mentally but No one who weighs well under 200 pounds is beating Tyson, your dreaming.
coxscorner 7 months ago
@coxscorner - So all we have to do is weigh them in. I'm surprised to see someone of your stature to place such little emphasis on willpower or i should say lack of willpower. To say these 3 wouldn't of tested Tyson is puzzling to say the least. Tyson isn't overated, he's grossly overated and you've bought into the hype. Tyson had the quit in him, always ready to come out when tested. I'll give you this, he looked great against human punching bags.
1899sharkey 7 months ago
@1899sharkey I think Tyson had other assets that make up for his lack of mental toughness. Its not like he just rolled over in 1 round in the fights he lost, he had to be beaten over the course of the fight. Also the later versions of Tyson post -prison lacked much of what made the young Tyson great. We will just have to disagree on Tyson. Im sure we agree on other things. Keep punching.
coxscorner 7 months ago
@1899sharkey I dont buy that 184 pd Dempsey hit harder than Tyson. Tyson was also a better combination puncher, based on film, shorter punches. Dempsey was tougher mentally, and that means something but I just think Tysons advantage in physical attributes, speed, power, strength means its a short fight. It's not like they are going to box for 10 rounds, neither would have to look for the other. I agree that boxing is dying. Unfortunately it looks like MMA will be the future of fighting sports.
coxscorner 6 months ago
@coxscorner -Thanx for the reply. Ithink in this fight Dempseys height and reach advantage might be more of a factor than Tysons 25 pound adv. ( i put Jack at 190). Just different opinions, i just dont think Tyson overwhelms a Dempsey.
1899sharkey 6 months ago
@1899sharkey Tyson EASILY destroys dempsey in a brutal mismatch btw
illmatic826 6 months ago
@illmatic826 - Lol... and Mark Zuckerman is smarter than Albert Einstein. Give it up novice, not even Tyson believes he could whip Dempsey. When the bully cannot intimidate he becomes intimidated. Tyson was the most chicken of all types of bullys, the kind that knocked over old women. A real bully cracks heads for the mob. Tysons whole demeanor would change very quickly against Dempsey, i dont think he makes it out of the first round.Now back to your vid game.
1899sharkey 6 months ago
@1899sharkey Fuck dempsey & the gay ass mob, the mob is a bunch of cowards who hide behind guns & end up dead at a young age or die of some fucked up illness hahaha Capone got a STD LOL, & you just racist anyway you think that every old white boxer could beat every great black boxer, man look here Tyson would make dempsey his bitch, even you dont believe that a little ass dempsey would beat Iron Mike, but yeah sure Tyson idolizes Dempsey but he would rip dempseys head off in 10 seconds.
illmatic826 6 months ago
@coxscorner - P.S.... CANT STOMACH MMA.
1899sharkey 6 months ago
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illmatic826 6 months ago
@coxscorner Thats a frickin joke thats not funny. Tyson better defense than Dempsey is laughable. Frazier too. U think slip rate is defense ? I'm not on the bash Tyson bandwagon or the great Marciano one. They all could beat tyson though, which I don't say lightly. BTW ,Tom Gibbons was a great fighter. Top ten LHW.
1saxonwolf 7 months ago
@AlexemilyPhelan im 23 , and i rate joe louis as nr1 , jack johnson as 2, muhammad ali as 3
alexfromgalax87 1 year ago
@AlexemilyPhelan "Show me a big guy with a big left jab and I'll show you a guy who is tough to beat." George Foreman.
That sums up Sonny Liston.
mongoose704 8 months ago
@AlexemilyPhelan i would put sonny at 5 and he had so much potential
MrLukedanger 4 months ago in playlist More videos from coxscorner
@AlexemilyPhelan Of who was in their era,true but take ,for example the same holyfield that outpointed foreman would have no doubt outpointed any year liston.He had enough strength and ability to take shots enough to nullify listons attack and counter with blistering combinations as he did vs foreman in 91.
fadethetrade 3 months ago
@fadethetrade - Liston k.o.s Holyfield inside two rounds. Comparing A prime Liston to a 91 Foreman is a bit of a reach. George still had great power but was slower than molasses and was even "outboxed" by Morrison.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@1899sharkey Holyfield of 94-98 would outpoint liston.Holyfield would outbox liston.Holy had a chin strong enough to ride the liston bombs and he would need a few rounds to figure a way to slip the liston jab.Holy was much faster and that would be his edge.Liston was nothing more then a shavers or lyle with a jab.He wasnt numb banging as you think because aside from a few short fights,most of his wins went longer then you might think.Check out boxrec.foreman,shavers were much faster ko artists
fadethetrade 3 months ago
@1899sharkey In fact,holyfield would beat liston a lot like his fights with tyson.Why would you think liston could walk in and ploddingly catch holy all night if tyson ,who was faster ,couldn't get thru holys craftyness in nulllifying tysons attack.Same strategy with the hard hitting liston and holy would survive and win more then 6 rounds.
fadethetrade 3 months ago
@fadethetrade - As I said before Sonny knocks out Holyfield and Tyson within 3 rounds.
1899sharkey 3 months ago
@AlexemilyPhelan Tyson late 87,greatest ever,Beats ali,clay,lewis,holmes,foreman,liston,louis,marciano.If he was tested by all of these in late 87,he would have beaten all of them.Too much,speed,power,chin,defense,ellusiveness.None of them except a Clay who runs for 15 or a young foreman if he gets lucky enough to lead the attack in the first 30 seconds of the fight.Otherwise tyson of late 87 ko's foreman .If foreman could be massively hurt and rocked by Lyle,then a classic tyson hurts him too
fadethetrade 3 months ago
@fadethetrade as exciting as Tyson was in that period, he never faced anyone of the quality of the name's you mentioned. Ok, Larry Holmes perhaps but Holmes was well past his prime and had come out of retirement. Certainly Ali/Clay, Liston and Foreman would have beaten an 87 Tyson. It's easy to look good when your opponents aren't up to the caliber of the legends you speak of. Yes, some were good fighters, very good fighters even, but not great, except the past his prime Holmes.
jimmyg141 2 months ago
@jimmyg141 i think [just to butt in , i havent read everything ] it just has to be left p to wht you think cus
i thought tyson would destroy tillis, sumtimes style matchups can be specific and he also fought spinks, and razor ruddock but yeah
bojack335 1 month ago
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forbesfoofighters 2 months ago
Liston was a great boxer/puncher.He had the most devastating jab maybe ever,and is easily in the top 5 of hardest hitting heavyweights ever.The only record that could verify his age,is his arrest record.He was atleast 35 when he fought ali.Ali was at his apex,the liston of the mid to late 50's puts ali to sleep,boom,splat...real quick
TheGatorfan93 1 year ago
Gotta give Floyd credit for fighting this guy twice even though he could of ducked him.
JohnFromSpace 1 year ago
awesome
LVSWTZ 1 year ago
I am distantly related to Sonny Liston. He was my Dad's, nan's, sister's, daughter's husband!!!!!
cavendish44 1 year ago
I actually believe Sonny Liston would beat George Foreman in a head to head fight. Listons left jab would probably keep George away for a bit because he had so much power behind it and he clearly had better boxing skills and defense. Sonny had very underated head movement and could probably slip many of Foremans lefts. And he had more stamina than George. Plus I have a difficulty seeing Foreman knocking Liston out early but it would be an awesome fight.
supersquid98 1 year ago
loved it! thanks you check out "theman in the lepord skin shoes" take on Mr Liston?
ur video is a classic. love the baseball scores
buzwall 1 year ago
There should be a rule when it comes to Tyson discussions and how he measures up against the atgs. We know Tyson squandered boatloads of talent. In asking how Tyson would fare against certain fighters, let's only look at Tyson in his prime, no matter how short it was. Don't duck the hypothetical question by saying Tyson couldn't beat so and so because of the fights he lost after he abandoned his training. The real question is how does Tyson in his prime measure up against the atgs in theirs.
smolakmcdougal 1 year ago
@smolakmcdougal - Absolutely. We obviously should rate all fighters in their prime. Tyson right in the middle of his prime(apparently lasted six months) would not have beat any atg's. Tyson's weaknesses would have surfaced at ANY time during his career. He had "enough" to beat good fighters but not a great fighter with great willpower. Let me repeat it- Tyson in his prime loses to ALL the atg's.
1899sharkey 1 year ago
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1899sharkey 1 year ago
@fadethetrade you are in fantasy land. Holyfield has something Tyson does not have: character. I'm sure Tyson could have gotten a fight with Bowe or given Douglas a rematch if he WANTED. Tyson needs to get inside and close in order to be effective. Bowe could, as Douglas and Lewis did, defeat Tyson with the basic left jab. As for the Real Deal, the only shot Tyson landed on Holyfield was a 4 tooth combo to the ear.
largelester 1 year ago
In hindsight,had the same Bruno of 1989 fought tyson instead of holmes fighting tyson ,,bruno wouldn't have made it out of the second round and tyson wouldn't have felt one shot landed from bruno. Even smith and holmes siad very high praising of tysons defensive ability.Holmes also said comparing tyson s punching ability with earnie shavers,holmes said that shavers hit you like a mack truck,tyson hits you like a speeding ferrari.Thats evidence of a tyson we only got to see for a short time.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
Damatos vision was to develop a fighter with great speed close to ali's and power,close to foreman and utilize the short height by slipping and being always slipping and side to side and continue it for 15 rounds.This is how rooney had tyson trained to do in that short period.Once a few of those small nuances were abandoned it made the difference in his approach,his opponents approach and the outcomes.All this came to an end in the bruno 1989 fight where even a dog like bruno almost had tyson.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
Great video. Liston hit like a sledgehammer and never really got the credit he deserved.
chunkyscotty 1 year ago
Sonny was a the best fighter in the world until 1964 when he met a very good Ali who was at his absolute best. No one would have beaten Ali in 1964, no one.
Sonny was a great fighter before and after the two Ali fights. He knocked out 14 guys in a row after the second disaster with Ali and did not lose a fight until 1969. Even at that time when he was pushing 40 yrs old, guys were still ducking him. Frazier would not give him a fight. We remember you Sonny, some of us still remember.
inxs07 1 year ago
i like liston as a fighter but i dont think top 5. top 10 no question but top 5 is pushing it a bit when you consider guys like jack dempsey, jack johnson, gene tunney, joe louis, rocky marciano,muhammed ali, joe frazier, george forman among a few others for me the top 3 are(in no order)joe louis, rocky marciano and muhammed ali with probably joe frazier and jack dempsey coming after for the 5, liston would be in my next 5 to make my 10 best list but he's for sure one of the greatest!
anselmochevelle 1 year ago
@anselmochevelle Dempsey and Jack Johnson can not hold a candle to Sonny Liston. First off Dempsey is 180 pounds, secondly Jack Johnson fought in an era where boxing was flat footed and basically wrestling with very few punches thrown. Rocky Marciano beat up a bunch of old men and had awful style that anyone who moves and isn't pushing 40 or 100 fights could stop.
capablemachine 1 year ago
@anselmochevelle - I'm with you I've got Sonny rated 8 on my list althogh Icouldn't argue with anyone rating him as high as fifth. Sonny was at his best around '60 before he even won the title.
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@1899sharkey He was too slow to be rated that high.The strength means hill of beans if the opponent makes it so theres nothing to hit.The holyfield that easily outboxed foreman would box rings around any year liston.Holyfield would rattle liston all night with devastating combinations liston wouldn't even see coming.Tyson of mid 80's ko's liston,bowe,tucker,holmes,foreman,douglas,lewis all beat liston.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@fadethetrade - like I've said before Sonny would have the canibal in trouble in the first and finish him in the second. Holyfield would not last 5 rounds. Tyson would quit against any of the fighters you mentioned. I've seen some of your posts and realize you are a tyson lover but get over it , your boys not even top 20.Dont bother responding as I will not waste any more time on the tin man.
1899sharkey 1 year ago
Watching these clips I'm starting to understand why Ali was an 8-1 underdog in their first fight; of course, no one anticipated that Liston's awesome power would be nullified by Ali being too fast for him to hit. I am beginning to think Liston is somewhat under rated though. And I heard he used to beat up on white racist cops which makes me like him even more.
chomsky88 1 year ago
@chomsky88 yea right if you think tat wasnt fixed watch closely
lhwood777 1 year ago
dude10- the best guess is 32- Liston was crushed by the negative response to beating patterson for the title- even pres kennedy wanted floyd to win the rematch so as good would concur evil. Sonny had thought he would be embraced much as Louis had been and was decimated by portrayals The 88in reach is 30 year memory- the fact that Foreman was 21 and liston was 38 when sparring means what advantage? Foreman admits being schooled by Sonny who had him backing away A prime Sonny makes Lyle look lame
opjkdg 1 year ago
@opjkdg Foreman says he did pretty good against Sonny Liston and that's when they thought he had potential.
capablemachine 1 year ago
@capablemachine they could have sold tickets for that 1
largelester 1 year ago
i think cus, bill, jimmy and kevin trained young mike on this model, o if mike just stayed home and kept on training he truly would have been great.......thanks a lot don and robbin you f'k'n bastards
largelester 1 year ago
I was 14 in 1964 when Sonny fought Ali the first time. I have always been a huge fan. Sonny quit the first fight with Ali because he knew he coud not beat him. He hit the deck in fight 2 for the same reason. Sonny was the best fighter of his time. His time ran out in 1964. No one in history could have beaten Ali in 1964. He was at his absolut prime. Sonny was a great fighter and deserves respect of fans like us. He had a tough life and made the most of it. A true tough guy.
inxs07 1 year ago
im very young only 23 my favourite was tyson just his footwork head movement power frightening combinations but liston was unreal 2 watch i loved watching his jab he was awesome 2 watch
joseph3754 1 year ago
People who were around and saw him all know what a monster fighter this guy was. Yes he was older than listed but only a few years. He aged quickly. At one time Foreman worked with Sonny and old Liston DOMINATED the sessions always backing up george with his 88 inch reach. Goerge picked up his surly act at this time. Liston in his prime was the supreme destroyer of all time eclipsing Dempsey, Louis. Rocky, Frazier, Foreman and Tyson. Ponder the truth.
opjkdg 1 year ago
First of all Sonny had an 84 inch reach not 88. Secondly George was 20 years old and still very green during those sessions. I wouldnt put too much into that. Liston is a top 10 ATG heavyweight though, no doubt about that.
coxscorner 1 year ago
yeah.ok. my first impression of liston was watching him vs leotis live on tv-I was 11yo. whatever- Concerning Liston of early 60s who would of beat him? Maybe Clay or Louis the night of the 2nd max fight NOT rocky or jack or joe or george or larry or mike thats for sure. That would make him better than a top 10 in my book. THE thing is he hardly rates top 10 in any expert lists. It dont worry me though. I just try to see clearly here. your thoughts on the psych thing?
opjkdg 1 year ago
@coxscorner Foreman was very much affraid of Liston when was his sparringpartner and had hugh admiration for him. Offcourse Foreman was still green then, but he was Foreman so you better believe Liston must have been one bad man. In fact I believe Liston would beat Tyson, so that would bring him in the top ten list. It's his powerfull jab, it doesn't look very spectacular but it's extremely effective. You can dominate a fight with such a jab. Douglas beat Tyson with his huge jab.
bcibibcibcpCB 1 year ago
@bcibibcibcpCB - Agreed! Sonny would k.o. Tyson early.
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@bcibibcibcpCB BY THE WAY Foeman was HITTING ALOT HARDER TEN Liston.. sonny liston never cut compare with foemans power.. but yes Foeman lokked up 2 liston he wannet 2 be like him and its crazye 2 think that Foeman alot stronger and taller and bigger guy ten Liston was afraid at that time.. but as i said that was AT THAT TIME Foeman would still win agienst liston i say that.. NUFF SAID
BunBRIP 1 year ago
@opjkdg Your last sentence..............the wisest words I've ever seen about boxing. I couldn't agree more.
bisquik3006 1 year ago
@opjkdg he wouldnt have beat prime tyson
MultiGreat1 1 year ago
@MultiGreat1 old liston would definetly beat an old tyson
largelester 1 year ago
@largelester yh no doubt
MultiGreat1 1 year ago
@largelester Fighters like Tyson aren't meant to have long careers, their work rate needs to be high to compensate for the height disadvantage.
capablemachine 1 year ago
@capablemachine although he had an 84" reach, liston was short and old and, if not for Ali, would have been champ for a long time-all of of Ali's victims of the 60's would have fallen to sonny.
largelester 1 year ago
@largelester I believe ali had an awfull generation of contenders in the 60's,even liston was finished by the mid 60's.A bum named everet martin ko'd liston in 69.Ali fought tomato cans like midenburger,foley,terrell,patterson,chuvalo.these guys have scary names and somewhat inflated reputations but they were basically tomato cans.Clevelend williams was a stand up old robot who a young classic tyson would run thru in 3 rounds.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@fadethetrade - "a bum named Evert martin ko"d Liston in 69" I believe it was Leotis Martin.
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@1899sharkey I was thinking of big foot everett martin but it was leotis martin.Listons problem was that he was alot like bonecrusher smith,probably no better in his prime.This might sound condescending to listons ability but I truly believe he was a big slow bangor with a heavy long jab but if his jab and power were as good as people say,he would have been twice the successful fighter that he was.But he didn't look great only against patterson who had a glass jaw anyway.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@fadethetrade - Sonny cleaned out the division even before winning the title. How much more succesful could he have been? Floyd was k.o.d by two big hitters but took the punches of Quarry,Chuvalo, and Bonavena. Floyd was 37 when he beat Bonavena, how was Tyson doing at 37?
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@1899sharkey I sent you a personal message about the skinny of things. Judging from holyfields boxing lesson he gave tpo foreman,he would certainly outbox sonny liston.Judging from tysons ability to take the smashes from ruddock who hit harder with the left smash then liston did,the younger tyson beats liston.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@fadethetrade - I did not even read your p.m. I've already heard all the Tyson excuses. Right smack in the middle of his "prime" Sonny destroys him. Dont care to debate the point anymore. Thanks
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@1899sharkey I didn't send you an excuse.Just wanted to know if you were like those other schmucks who can't comprehend the different tysons of pre rooney and post rooney.In hindsight,his 8 title destructions before his 22nd birthday against a few common opponents of lewis and holyfield and looking better against them,certainly proves he was the best heavyweight in history before the age of 23.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@fadethetrade - Is that a new category now? "Greatest heavyweight in history before the age of 23".
1899sharkey 1 year ago
@1899sharkey No. When he fought between the age of 20 and 22,just experienced enough to compete with the top3 of all time and just ending with his best up to date ,then losingALL his focus after march 1988 by marrying,partying,training for less then 3 weeks at a time with 1 yr breaks, and joining King and abandoning his damato/rooney/atlas techniques that,contrary to what you believe,would work on the guys who beat him later when he retired from serious training and fighting after 1988.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@1899sharkey Hope this was helpfull.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@1899sharkey Tysons best ability came in Dec 87 to jan 88.This is the period he knocked tillis down and gave tillis a sparring lesson and retired the Bull,Oliver mccall,with a 2 punch body attack that mccall said "adios" and he walked out of the session.The same mccall that ko'd Lewis.Tyson 's last great performance was holmes ,not spinks.He was already declining mrch 88 Tubbs after his turbulant marriage.Then he stops training and fighting to a once a year schedule and becomes a head hunter
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@1899sharkey You've never seen anything so interesting watching tyson in dec.1987 sparr in front of a japanese tv station beating on tillis and making mccall retire with body punches.That period,he beats holyfield,lewis,douglas and bowe.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@fadethetrade Liston got into the game late in life. As you no doubt know he was 5 years older than what was official. Didnt have his first pro fight till age 1953 which would make him 25. Guys are winning championship belts at that age. Had he started 10 years earlier who knows what he may have been
genericgeorge 3 months ago
@genericgeorge But sonny sort of struggled with small heavyweights even in the 50's.Look at his boxrec.Most of the heavyweights back then weighed around 190.Fighters were much smaller back then and this big bear couldnt put these guys out in 3 or less as a foreman and tyson did with bigger guys.Then liston gets totally outboxed.Dundee said liston was too short to beat foreman ,had they fought.HAd a tyson in his 87-88 form been in those days,he woudlnt have gone more then 4 rounds in any fight!
fadethetrade 3 months ago
@fadethetrade exactly what i mean by getting into boxing so late. Maybe he could have learned to box had to started early instead of being cumbersome slugger relying on power to win him matches. Maybe maybe not.
genericgeorge 3 months ago
@fadethetrade that was Leotis Martin, who was a rising star and Liston's next to last fight when he was at least 42 years old. Although he did drop Liston with a lucky right hand in the 9th, Martin's career ended after Liston chopped his face up leaving him legally blind. Liston also carved over 100 stitches into Chuck Wepner's face around the same time. I don't know if a 42 year old Tyson could defeat a 42 year old Liston
largelester 1 year ago
@largelester Liston was too slow.Any fast heavyweight with a solid to concrete chin beats him,Ali,Holmes,,Holyfield,Tyson 86-88,even a guy like jimmy young who beat foreman could outpoint any year liston.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@largelester It was hardly lucky punch. Sonny was absolutely bleeding and physically spent by the time he ko'd him. Martin was his sparring partner for a time.
genericgeorge 3 months ago
@capablemachine 3 yrs at his best 86,87,88.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@opjkdg yes, similar stance and style, liston looks like a pocket foreman
largelester 1 year ago
@opjkdg ---so what yr was he really born?Its listed as 1932; was it 1928? that would have made him 36 (not 32) at 1st ali fight.
loyaldude10 1 year ago
@opjkdg liston was overrated.guys like holyfield,tucker,even douglas would box rings around him,tyson that ko'd berbick,ko's any year liston.After ali alot of fighters learned the art of self preservasion but all of listons opponents in the 50's and 60's knew only one thing,go in there and fight him.
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@opjkdg and there was only one short video of foreman and liston sparring and george was keeping up with him.What video were you talking about??
fadethetrade 1 year ago
@opjkdg I wholeheartedly concur! nobody hit as hard consistently as Sonny! the way in which he hit that heavy bag was was indicative; Tyson was awesome as well on the heavy bag but not quite at the level of Sonny's power; close though.
judaschongo 1 year ago
The psychological factor in boxing is usually overlooked yet critical in evaluating fighters, Listons case is most interesting. His problems are well documented. He believed all the negativity of his life would go away after he won the title, and thought he would be revered much like joe louis. Instead the public and media were revolted that such a low life criminal could be champ. Even pres Kennedy told floyd on tv that he hoped he won rematch for all goodness. This crushed Liston evermore
opjkdg 1 year ago
hes too ugly to be the champ lol
diularsing123 2 years ago
Sonny Liston Was 36 years old when he fought Clay. I you have an objective bone in your body, and watch how fast he was in his prime in the late 50's he would have easily bet the big mouth jerk. He came from a horrible horrible life. not like Clay who grew up in a middle class intact black family. Now who REALLY KNEW WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO EXPERIENCE REAL RACISM
kettleriv 2 years ago
People didnt even know his real age, it was suggested he might have been as old as 45 when he fought Clay.
apestaartje321 2 years ago
@kettleriv - ALI was just too good, fast, fast moving, slick, smart, powerful, tough and deteremined for Liston. Liston was great but Ali was the greatest.
Boxinglad123 2 years ago
Age aside, he threw the 2nd fight, and anyone who doesn't believe that is just blind.
bisquik3006 2 years ago 4
read "The Devil and Sonny Liston" and you just might start believing Sonny threw the 1st fight too. I do.
why would a man who fought 12 rounds with a totally obliterated face against Marshall quit after 7 with a hurt shoulder, in a fight EVEN on the cards?
bluemonkjd 2 years ago
I wouldn't be suprised at all. I just can't see Clay ever beating him, or anyone at that time at all. I will read that book, thank you.
bisquik3006 2 years ago
@bisquik3006 your probably correct but the motivation was simply he knew the fight was un-winnable vs Clay. It's either that or get beaten, swollen & shredded up by the younger faster Cassius.
judaschongo 1 year ago
@bisquik3006
Small world
JohnFromSpace 1 year ago
@kettleriv i think he was 38
makpak 2 years ago
Liston quit the first fight for the same reason Duran said "No mas". They didn't want to get KOed and they KNEW it was coming.
rogerrodd 2 years ago 2
You could say that about Liston, sure. Even though Ali was completely bind in one of the rounds against Liston, Ali fought through it and made Liston quit on his stool. As for Duran, you don't know much if anything about Duran's history. He chose not to continue in the 2nd fight with Leonard because he felt Leonard didn't want to fight him, and he didn't. No way in hell that Leonard could have ever knocked him out!
BoxerLife5150 2 years ago
Leonard KOed an undefeated Hearns in Hearns's prime. In the 2nd fight Duran was so outclassed that Leonard was clowning him and hitting him 5 times to Duran's every miss. The KO was coming, Duran knew it, and Macho Man Fists Of Stone couldn't stand the idea of Leonard flattening him in front of the entire boxing world. If Leonard didn't want to fight him, as you claim, Duran would have ruthlessly KOed him rather than quit like the coward he came off as. He never has or will live it down.
rogerrodd 2 years ago
Yes, he KO'd Hearns in Hearns' prime, but everyone knows that Hearns had an eggshell chin. Leonard could definitely punch, but despite the KO from Hearns, who was one of the hardest punchers of all time, Duran had one of the best chins in boxing history. I still don't think Leonard was powerful enough to knock out Duran.
BoxerLife5150 2 years ago
I agree with Duran's chin-just not your belief as to why he quit. Do recall that Leonard was in his prime as well and he had numerous KOs. I watched the fight live (closed circuit) and that gives it such a different feel then you can ever get in replay. My opinion was shared by all who I spoke to during and after the fight. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Thanks for a civil conversation. When boxing & YouTube comments combine, it usually deteriorates into "you're a fag" & "fuck you".
rogerrodd 2 years ago
I guess we will. Thank you for a civil conversation as well. It's a great relief to talk with someone on the net with a shred of intelligence. Totally agree with you about conversations combining boxing & YouTube. You think it's bad with the boxing community? I won't even tell you what it's like on other sites. But it's always great to talk with a fellow boxing fan.
BoxerLife5150 2 years ago
Back at you my brotha. Be well.
rogerrodd 2 years ago
shut the fuck up please.
leanard great, but hes also a pussy, a very big pussy.
the way he fought duran, was the same way he fought marvin.
duran quit because leanrd wasnt fightin and the fact the duran didnt give a shit bou the figh as he thought leanrd was gonna lose again.
but leanrd is smart he ran punched.
duran cant chase the rabbit.
makpak 2 years ago
@BoxerLife5150
\Duran also claimed to have cramps lol.
It dosen't matter how he "felt" Leonard was fighting him and beating him. This is Boxing, the sweet science. If he wanted a gaurenteed brawl he should have gone to tough man competition instead of a Boxing ring.
Califacience 2 years ago
Here's the thing: Leonard was in his prime at welterweight. Duran was just acceptionally good at welterweight, not in his prime, not at his best. Duran was also an acceptional boxer with great, underrated technique. It's not like he was a bum. If Leonard had been a lightweight, where Duran was at his invincible best, I'm pretty sure we would've seen a different outcome.
BoxerLife5150 2 years ago
@BoxerLife5150 first of all leonard said b4 the fight that he was going to fight flat footed and thats why he lost because he was playing durans game which is brawling face to face and leonard cant cope with that so the second fight he said im going to fight him not flat footed and he won.
MultiGreat1 1 year ago
All Duran needed for a guaranteed brawl was to show up motivated and in shape. He did the first time and whipped Leonard. Ray had nothing to bother Duran at his best.
Duran's antics prior to the rematch are well attested. I laugh when folks try to paint that 'fight' as some kind of masterclass. Duran was a bloated slug and Leonard did nothing besides run like a scalded cat. He landed not one meaningful punch, before Duran dismissed him for being a weenie.
FlaviusConstantius 2 years ag