All Isengard has is 10,000 uruk hai. Mordor has the nazgul, the witch king, the mouth of Sauron, thousands and thousands of orcs. If the battle was in or around Mordor Sauron may also have Shelob (the giant spider). I think the winner is obvious.
@GrimmRebellion Eh in the Movies the Ents would have Even finished your "super" olog hais but isengard has so many many uruk Hai who are double As strong As orcs and even berserks and so One-> Mordor down
Mordor Battle Trolls (Olog Hai) pwn anything Insgard can bring to the battle field. They are the shock troops of middle earth. They will literally smash their way through Isengard lines. Ents (Tree Folk) took down Isengard. Battle Trolls are the morder counter to Ents.
Mordor will definetly would have won.. first of all, they would have taken the ring, so sauron would be revived.. Witch King and the nazguls.. sauron.. mumakils.. isengard has no chance
Are you kidding? Mordor vs Orthanc? Think about it... Mordor has the Easterlings, Haradrim, Varags of Khand, Trolls, Uruks, Olag-Hai and no doubt Sauron would have created some more Balrogs. Sauron would for sure win, and if he got the One Ring, no doubt he'd have Saurumon killed right away. However. Who would I want to win? Saurumon. I'd rather be ruled by a Man than a corrupt angel. Saurumon might just feel sympathy after he sees all the suffering.
@EcnelOvelam Sauron never created Balrogs, those are creatures of the same order as himself, some of them are almost as powerful as him. The Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, who was also Saurons master.
Who is Saurumon? I think you meant Saruman. Now, Saruman is, again, a creature of the same order as Sauron: a Maia, which is an angelic being, who came to Middle-Earth to organize the resistance against Sauron, but failed to do so.
Well, Sauron would have the ring by then, and he have an army that is to big for Isengard to house inside their walls.
However, Sarumann has much stronger uruks, and he would manage to defend his fortresses without problems, and he can change the weather, so he could fight in sunshine.
Sauron would win, as his castle can not be conquered. Just keep the gates closed and stand on top of it and say "fuck you" to Isengard.
well isengard is more badass but it would lose i mean sauron has witch king anyone who knows something about angmar knows what im talking about and mordor too has uruks everything that saruman has of army he copied from suron so mordor ftw
Where did Tolkien said that Sauron is very clever? And where in the books? There stands, that the works of Elves goes over Saruman and Saurons wisdom and knowledge. There stands, that Sauron make very much mistakes. There stands, that Sauron was defeated twice. That's not proof of such power that you say to him
Thats true, Saruman did make 10,000 very fast but Sauron made millions of orcs day by day. That army that attacked Minas Tirith was just 1 of his many armies. Plus Sauron had Harad, Rhun, Khand, and Umbar at his side. Not to mention Sauron had more terrian thus more resources. And yes Saruman would have become deadly should he get the ring. However the ring bows only to Sauron. It would have eventually destroyed him. Good point you have tho.
Sauron came to middle-Earth as a Maiar himself, and Saruman is a human. So Sauron have more power. Also he have the bigger Army, the Nazgul and better Sieges.
These 10000 Uruk-Hai are nothing against a Million Orks, Thousands of Haradrim, Easterlings, Trolls, Mumakil, Spiders, Mordor Uruks etc etc...
The problem with this is that if I remember right, Sauron controls Saruman through the Palantir, so basically Saruman would never turn against Sauron, and Sauron would probably have Saruman killed after victory. And yes, Uruk-hai beats orcs, but Sauron got so much bigger forces and so much more allies, also I think the Nazguls alone could give the Uruk-hai some serious problems. Not to forget that if Sauron got the ring, there would be no way Saruman would defeat the dark lord.
@rkrokberg Yes, it is right that Sauron controlled Sarumans palantir to corrupt him, which did not work on Denethors palantir. However Saruman had plans to rule all of Middle Earth, he would take the ring and bend it to his will.
@Mordor6121512 "Boromir described the dream he and his brother Faramir had experienced, and which led him to come to Rivendell. He pleaded that the Ring should be used to aid Gondor in her struggle against Mordor, but was told that it would inevitably corrupt anyone who used it. Only a mighty person could hope to wield the Ring against Sauron, and they would in time become a new Dark Lord whether they wished it or no."
@Baurles Gandalf was more wiser than Boromir, and he claimed there is only one Lord of the Ring.. Even to Frodo he mentioned "They are one, The Ring and Sauron".. The Ring would overwhelm anybody else who wields it considering it has Sauron's power and Sauron was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth during the Third Age..
"You cannot wield it, no one can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone, it has no other master"
@Mordor6121512 Yes, but it was not Boromir who said that, Boromir said that he wanted to take the ring to Gondor, however the council of Elrond convinced him that that would be foolish, only a very mighty man could use it, and then he himself would become the new Dark Lord.
@Baurles Nobody can become the new Dark Lord.. Anybody with the Ring would be destroyed with its power.. The Ring will ultimately find its way back to Sauron..
@Baurles Nobody can become a new Dark Lord.. The Ring would overwhelm its wearer and ultimately find its way back to Sauron. Thats what it always does.
Galadriel is not as powerful as Gandalf or Saruman, she's only one of the mightiest Elfes, not any more.
I know who Huan was, but now you're saying Sauron was less powerful as a Wolv, but Saruman as human not? And if Saruman feared Sauron is not clear, because when he say that he was not saying the truth any more, so you cannot clear decide. And Sauron is copying Melkor, eg Barad-Dur and Angband.
@Moepp89 Sauron is influenced by Melkor, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is copying him.. Sauron just inherited his title as the second successful Dark Lord.. And the Dragons and Balrogs were likely to ally with Sauron.. Why do you think Gandalf sent Bilbo and the Dwarves after Smaug? He feared they would ally with Sauron.
Sauron only went into hiding after Melkor's downfall.. Everything Melkor did, Sauron was crucial to him. Sauron never feared the Elves..
@Mordor6121512 Gandald said, that he doesn't know if Sauron is in Dol Guldur, he only thinks that. After he left the dwarves near Dol Guldur they find out who it was. Also the Hobbit is outstanding and a standalone Adventure( eg there is said, that in Bree lives human, Elves and Dwarves). And the ring could not stay at Rivendell, because the Elves also cannot win a war against millions of Orcs alone, so his speak
Sauron isnt the most powerful in Middle-Earth during the third age. There are Bombadil and others, also Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar. The only thing is, that they loose their power in being humans over the time. But Gandalf went back from Valimar after the fight with the Balrog. Gwaihir said "You are like light now, not heavy like the last time I carried you."
@Moepp89 Bombadil is a pacifist.. Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar, but so is Sauron.. And besides, Tolkien mentioned Sauron is one of the most powerful Maiar, while Gandalf and Saruman are pretty much average Maiar.. And they don't loose their power in being humans, they are just authorized to use it whenever they are facing very dangerous situations, Eg- Gandalf vs Balrog..
Rule out Bombadil, considering he wouldn't fight. Sauron is the most powerful otherwise.
Bombadil isn't a pacifist (help frodo and killed(don't know the word for "unhold;-)) only he don't worry about what is out of his land. But he's the first and the master, his own words.
Also Sauron is not much powerful than the other Maiar, he only likes more to battle. And Tolkien wrote in his letters and in the lost Storys, that Maiar get more and more human when they are in Middle-Earth. Like eating, sleeping and these things.
@Moepp89 Sauron is one of the more powerful Maiar.. Sauron loves strength, its a well known fact that is why he joined Morgoth.. And Huan wasn't an Elf, he was a Hound.. Sauron fought Huan as a Werewolf.. Sauron was dangerous, his return sparked fear into Saruman also..
But Tolkien made it obvious from his works that Maiar like Eonwe and Sauron are among the more powerful while Gandalf and Saruman are among the average
And a Balrog is not very dangerous for a maiar it(!)self, Feanor killed a few of them before Gothmog killed him(Dagor-nuin-Giliath). Sauron was defeated by elfes too when he walks as a human in Middle Earth (Luthien and Huan eg.).
So in a battle Sauron is not such dangerous any more like in earlier times, and Gandalf is fresh from the West^^
And a Balrog is not very dangerous for a maiar it(!)self, Feanor killed a few of them before Gothmog killed him(Dagor-nuin-Giliath). Sauron was defeated by elfes too when he walks as a human in Middle Earth (Luthien and Huan eg.).
So in a battle Sauron is not such dangerous any more like in earlier times, but Saruman is in this time only a human with a few powers. Not even the shire he can conquer without Isengard. Alle he can do is to copy from Sauron, like he copy from Morgoth.
@Moepp89 Sauron did not copy Morgoth, he pretty much worshipped Morgoth.. He rightfully became the Dark Lord after Morgoth's defeat, but Saruman was a Sauron copycat.. Saruman was just a freak who thought he was evil but the thing is, commanding 10,000 Uruks doesn't necessarilly make you evil.. Morgoth and Sauron were pretty much evil, so were all the creatures like the Dragons, Werewolves and Balrogs that served Morgoth..
@Moepp89 The Balrog in Moria, and Smaug, had they participated in the War.. They would have allied themselves with Sauron, considering the fact that he was the embodiment of Evil at the time.. Balrogs and Dragons are themselves more evil than Saruman, they would have rather destroyed his forces than join him
Also the dragons or the Balrog wouldn't allie with Sauron, because they didn't do that at the sec. Age. And they was made for Evil, so you cannot compare with Saruman.
And Sauron feared the Elfes and other Maiar all over the time, everytime when Melkor was defeated Sauron hides. He never get himself to battle, not in Dol Guldur, not in Barad Dur. He didn't contact Smaug when he was powerful, or at Erebor. If he was so powerful, I'm wondering why...
@Moepp89 Sauron only went into hiding because Morgoth was outnumbered and defeated.. "And Sauron feared the Elfes and other Maiar all over the time", just because it happened during the War of Wrath doesn't necessarily mean this happens all the time. Why do you think Sauron destroyed 2 Elven realms.. Its the Elves that feared Sauron, as Elrond himself admitted the Ring could not stay in Rivendell
@Mordor6121512 If Sauron don't fear the Elves, why don't use them as slaves, like Morgoth did before? Why kill all of them? There are no Elven-slaves all the time for Sauron only Morgoth have some. And if Sauron is so powerful, why hiding when Melkor is defeated? He always hide when mighty Elves are near, like Elrond, Celeborn or Celebrimbor. So Sauron is not as powerful as he wanted to be. And the fear of the free peoples makes him bigger in their head as he was really. Said by Gandalf
@Moepp89 Sauron only went into hiding because he did not have an army.. Sauron was actually very powerful, The Ring is proof of it.. What if he got back the Ring? Nobody would be able to stop him.. And he did not hide from Celebrimbor, for god sake he fucking tormented Celebrimbor and overran his kingdom.. He even killed Gil-Galad, the last High King of the Noldor.. You're not realising all of this.
@Mordor6121512 Of course I'm realisim that, but you don't see the complete. When did he kill Gil-Galad? When Gil-Galad went through a great battle and get tired. Sauron has all Jokers in his hand and was defeated at all. When Sauron is so powerful, why he need to reign through the rings and not through his own power? He needs the knowledge of Eregion to make his ring. And it don't work, only at humans.
@Moepp89 Sauron made the Rings because he wanted to control the will of the free people.. He did not seek knowledge from the Elves dude.. I think you're crazy, you're forgetting the fact that before his service to Melkor, Sauron was a servant of Aule, the Smith.. He infact gave them knowledge, his plan was to seduce the Elves into his service which didn't work.. He didn't want to destroy the Elves, he wanted to enslave them.
@Mordor6121512 Sauron was defeated twice: Making the one ring->defeat Eregion, Guild region->defeated by Gil-Galad and the Numenorian first time->Sauron flee and want to began a big war-> Ar Pharazon came to Middle Earth and take Sauron to Numenor->Numenor destroyed by Eru-> Saurons Torso killed, he came back to Middle Earth-> Elendil came, found Gondor and Arnor-> Sauron attacks Gondor, last Alliance-> Sauron defeated second time. Numenorians were in Middle-Earth before Numenor were destroyed.
@Moepp89 Yeah well, you're right, thats what I have been trying to explain to you.. In the end, good will always win. But saying Sauron is not that powerful is ridiculous..
@Mordor6121512 I#ve never say "Sauron is not powerful", only Sauron is not the most powerful in Middle-Earth. He was never such a powerful creature he wanted to be. Sauron is only like a little kid that want to be like his Daddy (Melkor). And he doesn't do this very well. So he is probably strong, but not such powerful. He#S not wise, not tricky, never clever;-) To be the most powerful and the mightiest, he have to be more than to be only one of the strongest. Apologize my english^^
@Moepp89 He is tricky and higly clever.. The Rings of Power are proof.. The fact that he tricked the Elves into making the Rings is proof that he is very clever and cunning.. I never said he is the most powerful in Middle-Earth.. I just said that he was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth during the Second and Third Ages.. Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond.. None of them could come close.. Of course Melkor is more powerful since he is a Vala, Sauron is "one of the most" powerful Maiar..
Sauron had not to hide, because the Orks were not killed all, also dragons, wolves and balrogs. He had only to grap this army to continue the fight of Morgoth. But he didn't, he hides and came out later to the Elves to try his plan with the ring. He was not strong enough to win the battle against the Elves. Also Celebrimbor hasn't any kingdom he was the head of Gwaith-i-Mírdain. They were walking Elves. And Celebrimbor doesn't talk to Sauron in Barad Dur by torture
@Moepp89 Celebrimbor was the king of Eregion.. And remember the War of Wrath when the Valar? Most of the Orcs destroyed, Balrogs and Dragons were destroyed as well.. Sauron barely had an army to continue Morgoth's war.. Hence the Rings.. Celebrimbor was tormented to reveal the location of the other rings.
@Mordor6121512 Curufin wasn't a king, so Celebrimbor cannot be a king at all. Gil-Galad was. Celebrimbor was only the head of jewelers.
And he said nothing to Sauron. The most battles against the free peoples Sauron lost. It's fact from the books. In the Film it was different. Gil-Galad brought him back to Mordor and there was the last battle, not in Rivendell, Eregion or at Cirdans place, the grey havens...
@Moepp89 Did you read The Silmarillion? Celebrimbor was the ruler of Eregion, and after he learnt of Sauron's deception he was captured by Sauron and tormented to reveal the location of the other Rings.. Then the War of the Elves and Sauron started. Sauron overran Eregion and Eriador, hell even Elrond was unable to defend the realms, he gathered the survivors and found Rivendell.. The only thing that saved the Elves was the arrival of the Numenoreans
@Mordor6121512 Yes I read it for many times, but i understand it, too. If you have to attack me personally I know what kind of human you are. Poor. Read it again and now with your head. In Middle Earth the Norldor only have one High-King. Maedhros gave the Titel to Fingolfin-> Fingon->Turgon->Gil-Galad the last one. And the Dwarves also learn from Aule, like Celebrimbor and Feanor before. Read and understand that the head of the Guild is not a king;-) Eregion wasn't a kingdom only a region.
@Moepp89 Sauron one of the first to learn from Aule.. So that means, he had more knowledge than any one else.. Feanor, Celebrimbor, and the Dwarves all come in later.. The only one who can probaly rival Sauron in crafting powerful items is Feanor.
@Mordor6121512 You're showing all the time that you want to see Sauron was the most powerful. All you're arguments are wrong or nothing. Sauron the first learning from Aule? Yes, but not longest. When did you learn more? When you are learning the forst, or learning a long time? And you never answer to question: When he's so powerful, why he never win? Sometimes he wins a battle, but if he want to began a real war he was beaten up very strongly. Everytime.
@Moepp89 Sauron was not beaten strongly, the good side actually suffered heavy loses and you know that.. Morgoth was very powerful yet in the end he also lost his war. Its always the case, the good guys will always win. And there's no stopping that
@Mordor6121512 Sauron never killed Earendil. Dwarves not important? Interesting but wrong.
But it's fact that 3 of 4 parts of his plans didn't work. 1. The Elves 2. The Dwarves 3. To kill all Elves and reign over Middle-Earth. That shows how clever Sauron was. Really clever. Sauron gave his own strength to make his plan working, but it didn't. He makes himself weak to get it work. But it didn't. He gave the Elves and Dwarves a new weapon in that rings that made this peoples stronger against him.
@Moepp89 Sauron never aimed to enslave the Dwarves.. His aim was against the Men and Elves.. And secondly, even if his plan against the Elves did not work, the Elves still got hammered when they learnt of his deception.. Remember, the Elves are very wise.. You need to be really tricky and clever to fool the Elves.. And Sauron pulled it off. Only the Numenoreans saved the Elves, and you know Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into their own downfall
@Mordor6121512 When he never aimed to enslave the Dwarves, why the rings?And from where you want to know that?He tried, he wanted. And Elves were wise yes but thats only proof of that Sauron is a good actor. That changes anything about his plans that didn't work and his great mistakes and his hidings. Also the dwarves came from Moria and fight in Saurons back in Eregion, not only Numenoreans and Elves,but they didn't have to. So Dwaves weren't irrelevant. But this victory they made only easier
@Moepp89 Remember, Elrond said Dwarves are not that reliable.. Sauron made them more unreliable, because the Rings made them more greedy and unreliable.. And you're actually saying it was easy for Sauron to get defeated? Dude you're talking like Sauron was a big sissy and a dumbass.. Seriously you need to think because you're ignoring the simple fact that the Elves got tricked by Sauron.. If Sauron ever made a mistake, it was that he underestimated the Hobbits, which caused his downfall.
@Mordor6121512 Yeah, Elrond also like Dwarves as best friends. Dwarves also say that above Elves. And Sauron is like a little kid sometimes and not such powerful you want that he was. Proofs I show you the last times, but you ignore them. The books and letters tells it in another way than you say and thats fact.
And I#m not ignoring that some Elves were tricked by Sauron, I said it in my last post. Have you read it? Elves was tricked a lot, so it's not THE big thing and no proof for power.
@Moepp89 You're also ignoring the simple fact that the Elves are more wiser than the Dwarves, and Dwarves are more greedier.. And the books, letters, and Tolkien himself said Sauron is very clever and cunning.
The Elves being tricked it not proof of power, its proof of his cunning.
@Mordor6121512 More wiser than Dwarves yes, but what means that in this relation? I've nothing said in this way. Wisdom is not equal to knowledge or a sign for strength or something else. The Wisest can be tricked by a normal thief. Then the thief is not very powerful, hes good in this little job. Sauron for example as an actor when he can change his body. To be powerful is more, and his "plans" show that he's not such clever, they didn't work!
@Moepp89 You're not getting my point mate.. I'm talking about Sauron's cunning, not power.. His plans did work, you're just ignorantly claiming that they didn't without realising he corrupted the Men, made the Dwarves greedy and hammered the Elves.. His plans were the reason the War of the Ring happened, and he almost won it.
@Mordor6121512 You said "Sauron is the most powerful in Middle-Earth in..." and I show you that's not true.
Which war he won? Have you another book? In my ones he was defeated twice and killed at the end of the third... You never answer to my questions. The dwarves were greedy all time long, the ring make them only stronger against Sauron, because of Stubborn. And I say yes, the plan with men did work, and he tricked a few Elves. But the rest? It's only a smart part of all. The rest didn't.
@Mordor6121512 If his plans would work, there has to be no war, because he would rule all. Did he? Not really. I'm ignoring nothing, but I see everything, not only what I want to see. Everytime I ask you anything you didn't answer. Why? Not shure about your knowledge? I said a long time ago, read the books again and you will see what "power, knowledge, and cunning" Sauron really has. It's not clever to think about plans that never works, I repeat it.
@Moepp89 Okay, well half of his plans worked.. His plans against the Men worked, it partially worked on the Dwarves.. And it worked on the Elves to an extent, since the Elves were almost defeated by him.
And the rings are not proof of his cleverness, because they didn't work, only the human ones. The dwarves never accept him as king, only more stubborn than before. The Elves also never work. Very clever if most of your plans going wrong. You cannot explain that with "good will always win". It's not clever to think over plans that going never to work
@Moepp89 His plan did work.. He tricked the Elves into making the Rings, and he created his One Ring in secret. He destroyed alot of kingdoms and regions including Eregion, killed Gil-Galad, and Earendil, corrupted the men further, and with the Ring he broke the line of kings. In the end he almost won it, it was only luck that the Ring got destroyed. Only the Elves did not work, and Dwarves were not that important.
The fact that he tricked the Elves into making the Rings was clever
@Moepp89 The Rings certainly are a way to express Sauron's cleverness: true, the Three and Seven didn't served their purpose as planned, but the Three had to be hidden and weren't used, while Sauron was able to manipulate the keepers of the Seven (Silmarillion). Also, the One Ring enhanced his power greatly, and the Nine were completely in his control. And in the War of the Ring he lost because of the greatest power of all: Eru, the Creator (in the Letters, 246 is one of them).
@Moepp89 Since when does Eru needs to come down to Arda to interfere with his creation? Eru is much greater than any Vala: he is their creator too. He was the equivalent of the Christian God.
@Moepp89 That's open for discussion: some think that Eru directly interfered by letting Gollum slip, others argue that he affected much more of the story, based on events of Pity and Mercy, as the "Writer of the Story".
There is another case of intervention from Eru: he was the one that send Gandalf back.
Tolkien wrote LOTR, and the rest of his works, from a Catholic stand of view. Also, he didn't consider Middle-Earth as a fantasy-world, but the earth where we living upon.
@MasterBombadillo Tolkien wrote that he don't want that anyone compare his works and the real life. He was influenced, but it's no symbol or anything like this. Eru didn't send Gandalf back or where did it stand?
IN Silmarillion stand that Eru said to Manwe that he had to rule on his own way, he don't want to interfer. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Some people thinks that Bombadil is Eru but Tolkien said he's not, so you see, if someone "think sth" it's not true
@Moepp89 That's not true: Tolkien wrote he despised allegory, but not applicability. In many occasions, including the LOTR foreword, he clearly compared Middle-Earth to Europe, but stated that those days were gone, and the shape of lands changed drastic. By "allegory", he meant something completely different: basing a lot of the story on, let's say, the events of WWII.
@Moepp89 Now, for the intervention of Eru: yes, he stated that he doesn't want to interfere. Yet, he did it on several occasions, like when Aulë created the Dwarves and when Mandos wanted to restore Beren's life. Also, he interfered with great power when Ar-Pharazon attacked the Undying Lands, reshaping the lands.
@Moepp89 Now moving to the War of the Ring, I stated Gandalf was send back by Eru. I will now prove this by quoting from Letter 156, where Tolkien stated:
"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors, but Authority [Eru] had taken up this plan and enlarged, at the moment of it’s failure. […] Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ [Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and time."
@Moepp89 Yes, I know Bombadil isn't Eru, yet the point of view about the events at Mount Doom came from people who, like me, studied Tolkien's writings a long time, and discussed a lot about it. From LOTR and the Silmarillion to HOME and the Letters, people have gathered a lot of information to prove and disprove points. The discussion about the interference of Eru wasn't about whether he interfered or not, but how: the consensus is, based on Tolkien's writings, that he did interfere.
@Mordor6121512 "Don't try to mess with Tolkien's work", you say? By trying to prove you're point by stating movie-quotes, you're actually messing with his works...
In many occasions (not in the last place the Letters, here 246), Tolkien stated that very powerful persons could wield the Ring, and some of them (namely the Maiar) would stand a chance against Sauron if they did. And when Sauron was defeated by such person, that person would've taken his place as Dark Lord, and as Lord of the Ring.
@Mordor6121512 Not completely: Sauron was the Master of the Ring, yet others could wield it. And from the moment one who'd mastered the Ring defeats Sauron head to head (like I said, only a Maia could do that), he would take over his place as Dark Lord and Master of the Ring (Sauron would end like he did when the Ring was destroyed: as a powerless spirit). But there were powerful Elves who could master it too, yet they weren't powerful enough to challenge Sauron directly, but by military force.
@MasterBombadillo But Gandalf and Saruman aren't powerful enough to challenge Sauron directly.. And with the Ring more closer to Sauron, whoever uses it against him would be enslaved, wouldn't they?
@Mordor6121512 The Letters state quite clear that Gandalf, off course when he mastered the Ring, has a chance to challenge Sauron and win. Tolkien used the argument that Gandalf was "an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taken visible physical form."
It's undoubtedly a reference to his Maia stature, which means that Saruman also could control the Ring before his fall: afterwards he was too weak.
@Mordor6121512 You're confusing the power of the One Ring with the power of Sauron: the One Ring made it possible to control the Ringwraiths. They were enslaved by their Rings, not directly by Sauron. As seen in Letter 246: if Frodo would've claimed the Ring at Mount Doom, the Nine would wait for Sauron himself to crush Frodo, even obeying minor orders from Frodo. But not the ones that were opposed to Sauron's errand, for Sauron held the Nine and therefore had primary control over their wills.
@MasterBombadillo Funny how much people know such things, that Christopher never heared^^So you also doesn't see what happens when Maia went to Middle Earth in their human being. Saruman as a human such powerful as Sauron in his Maia being? Great idea, then the whole battle is without sense^^So study this senseless story in your own way like before,but began to understand what you read. You show your "knowledge" in a interesting way, by showing how big is your fantasy^^
@Moepp89 Christopher does know it: he published the Letters. If you don't know it, it doesn't mean Christopher doesn't know it. Also, it's Saruman who mastered the Ring who stand a chance against Sauron.
About the Istari: their human shape doesn't mean they were Men: yes, their shape restricted them a bit in power and knowledge, yet the main source of restriction were the Rules laid upon them (as seen in the Letters and Unfinished Tales): they were forbidden, not unable, to use their powers.
@MasterBombadillo But isn't the power of the One Ring and the power of Sauron one and the same? I mean, Sauron can see all who weild the Ring, and he held the Nine Rings, so if Frodo wears the Ring the Nine would find him, wouldn't they?
@Mordor6121512 "Sauron can see all who wield the Ring." Ever heard of Peter Jackson? That guy who invented things like Lighthouse Sauron? I knew you did. Let's say that whole "can see who wears it" is another invention of him. Think about it: throughout the books, Sauron didn't know who carried the Ring, and even failed to see it when Sam wore it at Cirith Ungol. The whole idea behind it is just idiotic.
@Mordor6121512 Yes, the Nine can feel the presence of the Ring, but not it's exact location. They could find him, and see him, but especially that last thing is because they are spirits. Also, in the scenario I paraphrased from the Letters, Frodo had reached Mount Doom (during the journey his own power had grown) and claimed the Ring, two fundamental things one needs to consider. In that same scenario, Frodo was found by the Nine, but they would only block the passage to the Crack of Doom.
Even if Saruman had fought with the fellowship, the ring would still have had to be destroyed in the fires of mount doom. And yes, Sauron was stronger than Saruman, however the first wars of the rings the combined force of elves and men managed to beat Sauron army for army on the battlefield.
Well, to answer the question of who'd I want to win, I think I would just want them to keep fighting each other until both sides have destroyed each other.
numbers do not win a battle, and isengard is a much more advanced adversary, and have uruk hi and orcs, even if mordor outnumber isengard i believe it would be abit like 3oo where the spartens kicked ass for bare time only thered be tens of thousands, and in the film gandalf said 10,000 orcs are in frodos way of mount doom, and greemer says it would take ten thousand orcs to take the keep and saruman says tens of thousands, meaning there could be like 50,000, and hell all saruman
@tom0mot0carroll First of all, if Balrogs or Dragons would take sides, they would ally with Sauron.. Because Saruman is not at all evil, the Balrogs and Dragons are much more evil and nastier than him.. Sauron is the big evil Dark Lord after Morgoth, not Saruman. Secondly, Sauron has Black Uruks outnumber Saruman's Uruk-Hai and they are equally fierce.. Thirdly, the book clearly states Sauron is more powerful, do not deviate from what the book said
@Mordor6121512 you do realise i do know the characters and that balrogs are much more evil then sruman....... souron in person is much more powerful then saruman, through what you have said to my comment you have not taught me a single thing that i have already known....... also there is a big WHAT IF facter, and its just a friendly discussion, i have read the books from the hobbit to the lord of the rings and the children of hurin, and i used the idea of the 300 movie as an egsample,,......
@tom0mot0carroll You can't use 300 as an example.. Seeing clearly, Sauron has Uruks in his ranks and they outnumber the number of Uruks that Saruman has.. His army is not only made up of Orcs, dont forget Easterlings that are as deadly as Uruks.. And Trolls obviously, which Saruman doesn't have
Or does he attack when he has grown a army large enough to defeat Sauron. It also depends on who the Evil Men decide to serve. I personilly belive that they would follow Saruman rather than Sauron because Sauron isnt phisyicly there to perswade them while Sarumon is and his skills at persawion are legendary in middle earth.
@deathlord135 But they are many evil men certanly the men of Rhun and Harad will continue to serve the Dark Lord while the dundelings Saruman. And in this "alterned universe" Sauron has the "Precious", sorry the Ring, so he would be able to asume phisical shape. I would say Mordor for Isengard has stronger troops, Uruks, which could kill Mordor orcs and Mordor Uruks or "Black orcs" but they would be hopelessly outnumbered plus if we add the mumakil the Nazgul and the Fell Beast the battle islost
Minas Tirith get destoryed? It also depends on just how Rohan was defeated, did they even retreat to helms deep? Or did the Fellowship get destoryed in Amon Hen. As well as the fact of who has the ring Sauron or Sarumon, If Sauron has it Saruman is screwed but If Saruman has it or it is lost than Sarumon has a good chance of winining. It also depends on just when Sarumon decides to attk mordor and Sauron, does he do it when Sauron is attking Minas Tirith?
If Saruman had the ring that would be a guy who can kill thousands within hours by himself, plus maximum 30k uruks, 10k warg riders, 1k dundelings and a couple of k orcs. So It would be about 50k. They might have a chance vs the mordor forces of around 300k orcs, 200k uruks, 100k evil men, thousands of trolls, giants and wyrms and creatures if they went to a castle or made a new one. Like Minas Tirith or Minas Morgul but if they attacked mordor they would die! They will lose!
I feel it smart to add that with the destruction of rohan Isengard would have more land under its control than mordor since Saruman would most likely seize all of rohans resources after rohans defeat at helms deep. The remaining forces of Isengard could perhaps hold off the armies of mordor depending on a few factors. Who won in the north of middle earth? Did the easterlings defeat the dwarfs and elfs? Did Dol Guldor get destoryed by the elves? How much of Sauron's main army that attacked
I understand as do many quite rightly, that Sauron has like hundreds of thousands of Orcs, Easterlings, Haradhrim and others; and Saruman had 10,000 Uruks and a few thousand Wild Men, and a few hundred Warg Riders etc - so the first thought is...ok, Sarumans Uruk army we see at Helms Deep is lethal for its size and would cut through an equivalent 10,000 orcs easily, but say if all the Mordor forces attacked these defending Isengard, eventually it would be overrun and Saruman killed (continued)..
@ThePalaeontologist ..though it would be interesting to see how many Mordor Orcs he'd kill with powers before then. However, what if we consider Saruman built up that 10,000 very quickly and they (in spite of being beaten and annihilated at Helms Deep by the free peoples and Huorns) were indeed an army more than worthy of Mordor. Saruman, if he had 100,000 Uruks of that quality, could win the war eventually. His inventions could counter enemy Mumakil/Nazgul (these he could face personally) etc
okay seriously do you have a clue how GOD DAMN BIG SAURONS ARMY IS???? he has not only orks fighting for him..he has also humans like the easterlings and the the people from harad on his side....mordor is an entire much bigger then isengard and sauron is the most powerfull wizard warlord in the world with his ring on....he could only be defeated by a force bigger then the elves an man toghether because he would be more carefull this time...tolkin would turn over in his grave if he saw that xD
hmm well Isengard has the stronger uruk-hai, wargs, and dundainlings or whatever tbey are called, and mordor has rhun harad, trolls, and Nazgul so i vote on Mordor
@Psychohungary Not to mention Mordor has the Black-Uruks, Olg-Hai, Great Beasts, millions of orcs, more territory, stronger forts, and Sauron himself when he gets the ring. Even withouth the ring Mordor would pwn Isengard in a heartbeat. Look at the size of Isengard then look at Mordor. I rest my case.
@HermiOdleProduction5 Well yeah,but if frodo fails at amon hen aruman could get the ring.Than he could pwn mordor.And didint you see how fast saruman got 10,000 Uruk hais?If Saruman wouldent be that stupid and he leaved some uruk hais at isengard when they attacked helms deep,the ents wouldent take over isengard and they would fail.Than Saruman could do a big army of uruk hais.And they pwn the normal mordor orcs.
@Psychohungary hey have you read the books and have you seen the movies?? nobody knows what would have happend if saruman had the ring...would he turn into a person like sauron or in one like gollum? if the fellowship failed at amon hen the orc company would still be killed by eomer and his men and sauron would destroy rohan....
isengard wouldnt have the chance to get the ring and mordor has an army that has millions of orcs and thausends of men in it.
Saruman made 10.000 Uruk Hai s just in a short time.In a fight with Mordor , Saruman will make more Uruk Hai s.Maybe 50.000 Uruk Hai s + 5.000 Dunlending Warriors
Lol, Hardly. Even if he could make 55k warriors altogether Mordor can make over that many in a week. Just their orcs are in the hundreds of thousands, plus harad, corsairs, easterlings, mumakil etc. 100k, plus their uruks that are stronger, bigger and more of them are about 150k, wargs are like 75k plus 9 nazgul and loads of fellbeasts and lots of evil creatures. Apart from the men they make that in days but to make 50k of uruks in like 5 months. Mordor will aways win! Don't Argue.
@debelidjole i dont think so, uruk hai was so fast made that if saruman would win in helms deep, he would make more troops than sauron and quality would be much better than mordors orcs, true he didnt have mumakils and trolls but technologically he have advance, and not to mention warg raiders
@electricatom2 You guys ignore the simple fact that Mordor has Black Uruks which are as strong as Saruman's Uruks.. And if Saruman would have won in Helm's Deep, Sauron would not have just stayed quiet and watched Saruman uprising.. Sauron is much more smarter than Saruman, and he is more technologically advanced.. Saruman has ladders, ballistas and battering rams.. Sauron has catapults, siege towers and Grond. And he has his own Wargs.
lol isen ...mordor hav best hero thgan isengard....Rhun pike ( humain) better than uruk (sure) stop with u fuking orc......haradream /mumak....8 horse nazgul.....or fly nazgul.....Who can beat Wking and soron ? Isen ? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz never.....archer uruk SUK vs Harad and Umbar pirat r faster use fire on build and unit....And troll after..poor Isengard....vry limited
Isengard made a army of 10.000 in a few days, while Mordor had many years to come up with their army... Thanks to Saruman Isengard made many new tactics and improvements to armor and weapons. If both factions had the same amount of time to prepare Isengard would win, Mordor would only win thanks to Nazgrel.
@F0ck93 Mordor has Trolls, they don't even need the Nazgul to crush Isengard... Isengard was mainly Mordor's little bitch and Mordor was the main threat.. That speaks for itself, don't try to mess up the LotR plot..
@F0ck93 An army of 10.000 in a few days... the funniest joke, except for Lighthouse Sauron, in LOTR history.
I mean, come on. 10.000 in a few days, why didn't he create some more? No, Saruman gathered his army by breeding and assembling Orcs over a period of many years, at least 18. Creating such army in a few days would mean that Saruman defied the laws of Iluvatar (who was God).
Tolkiens writings, thus the best sources possible, are proving me right: The Silmarillion stated explicitly that Orcs multiply like Men an Elves do, and The Hobbit included Orc-children. So there is no discussion possible about the fact Saruman needed many years to create his army. Not to mention they weren't all Uruks, and much of his army is a gift from Sauron.
All Isengard has is 10,000 uruk hai. Mordor has the nazgul, the witch king, the mouth of Sauron, thousands and thousands of orcs. If the battle was in or around Mordor Sauron may also have Shelob (the giant spider). I think the winner is obvious.
meggie7515 3 days ago
not sure, Sauron is more powerfull then Saruman and could make the uruk hai turn on to him.
so it totally depends on who's controlling the uruk hai.
RaxusKane 1 week ago
@EcnelOvelam Saurumon is this a New Pokémon never heared of it:/ but sauron Cant create balrogs!And orthanc Cant Be destroyed..
TheHinnerksen 1 week ago
@Anathar88 Uruk-Hai are cooler than the orc wimps :D
TheHinnerksen 1 week ago 2
@GrimmRebellion Eh in the Movies the Ents would have Even finished your "super" olog hais but isengard has so many many uruk Hai who are double As strong As orcs and even berserks and so One-> Mordor down
TheHinnerksen 1 week ago
The World ist changing! Who now, has the strength to stand against the army of Isengart?
SinkingOfTheTitanic 2 weeks ago
Mordor Battle Trolls (Olog Hai) pwn anything Insgard can bring to the battle field. They are the shock troops of middle earth. They will literally smash their way through Isengard lines. Ents (Tree Folk) took down Isengard. Battle Trolls are the morder counter to Ents.
GrimmRebellion 3 weeks ago
it took all of Rohan, Gondor, and an UNKILLABLE UNDEAD ARMY to beat Mordor, while Rohan and some talking trees beat Isengard
CobaltMan6 4 weeks ago
@CobaltMan6 If your going by movies, the Elves helped Rohan too. If your going by books, Elves still helped (Legolas)
Anathar88 3 weeks ago
@Anathar88 Gondor was helped by Legolas too (he was with the army of the dead).
CobaltMan6 3 weeks ago
@CobaltMan6 Yeah, well, everyone was helped by the Elves, even the dwarves, and everyone helped the Elves.....It was a team effort :)
Anathar88 3 weeks ago
@CobaltMan6 Most of the army wasent at isengard tho silly
boyo3244 1 week ago
@boyo3244 that's because they were getting killed at Helm's Deep.
CobaltMan6 1 week ago
Mordor will definetly would have won.. first of all, they would have taken the ring, so sauron would be revived.. Witch King and the nazguls.. sauron.. mumakils.. isengard has no chance
kontossavvas 1 month ago
Isengard would have owned the crap out of Mordor.
TheTurkeySlasher 1 month ago
whoevers army is the biggest but if the numbers where the same isengard would win
MrYeahboii1 1 month ago
@MrYeahboii1 All of Isengard's 10,000 Uruk-Hai against Mordor's 200,000....My money's on Isengard.
Anathar88 3 weeks ago
urak-hai defenitly would have slain mordor
MyRock4life 1 month ago
mordor wins *
alexandersunivers91 1 month ago
No, duh Saruman is way better than Sauran. LONG LIVE ISENGARD! your video was EPIC! i'll subscribe right away!
chinchilla22wwe 1 month ago
Are you kidding? Mordor vs Orthanc? Think about it... Mordor has the Easterlings, Haradrim, Varags of Khand, Trolls, Uruks, Olag-Hai and no doubt Sauron would have created some more Balrogs. Sauron would for sure win, and if he got the One Ring, no doubt he'd have Saurumon killed right away. However. Who would I want to win? Saurumon. I'd rather be ruled by a Man than a corrupt angel. Saurumon might just feel sympathy after he sees all the suffering.
EcnelOvelam 1 month ago
@EcnelOvelam Sauron never created Balrogs, those are creatures of the same order as himself, some of them are almost as powerful as him. The Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, who was also Saurons master.
Who is Saurumon? I think you meant Saruman. Now, Saruman is, again, a creature of the same order as Sauron: a Maia, which is an angelic being, who came to Middle-Earth to organize the resistance against Sauron, but failed to do so.
MasterBombadillo 1 month ago in playlist LOTR 10
@MasterBombadillo So, Morgoth was killed and then Sauron became the evilest?
Onaventea 12 hours ago
@Onaventea Morgoth wasn't killed, he was banned from Arda to the Void, beyond the Doors of Night.
MasterBombadillo 7 hours ago
Well, Sauron would have the ring by then, and he have an army that is to big for Isengard to house inside their walls.
However, Sarumann has much stronger uruks, and he would manage to defend his fortresses without problems, and he can change the weather, so he could fight in sunshine.
Sauron would win, as his castle can not be conquered. Just keep the gates closed and stand on top of it and say "fuck you" to Isengard.
Farvai0 3 months ago
VERY GOOD!!!!!
XXkingboygamerproXX 3 months ago 2
well isengard is more badass but it would lose i mean sauron has witch king anyone who knows something about angmar knows what im talking about and mordor too has uruks everything that saruman has of army he copied from suron so mordor ftw
Wenix100 3 months ago
@Mordor6121512
Where did Tolkien said that Sauron is very clever? And where in the books? There stands, that the works of Elves goes over Saruman and Saurons wisdom and knowledge. There stands, that Sauron make very much mistakes. There stands, that Sauron was defeated twice. That's not proof of such power that you say to him
Moepp89 4 months ago
orks - democratia? people - imperio? yeS?
Miki18924 4 months ago
Anyone Know What Music Was Used In This ?
azeemotron 4 months ago
@azeemotron .... the music is the march of the templars, search on here for it
2007db2007 4 months ago
@Psychohungary
Thats true, Saruman did make 10,000 very fast but Sauron made millions of orcs day by day. That army that attacked Minas Tirith was just 1 of his many armies. Plus Sauron had Harad, Rhun, Khand, and Umbar at his side. Not to mention Sauron had more terrian thus more resources. And yes Saruman would have become deadly should he get the ring. However the ring bows only to Sauron. It would have eventually destroyed him. Good point you have tho.
HermiOdleProduction5 4 months ago
Sauron came to middle-Earth as a Maiar himself, and Saruman is a human. So Sauron have more power. Also he have the bigger Army, the Nazgul and better Sieges.
These 10000 Uruk-Hai are nothing against a Million Orks, Thousands of Haradrim, Easterlings, Trolls, Mumakil, Spiders, Mordor Uruks etc etc...
Moepp89 4 months ago
isengard have better infranty,mordor have trols,dragons,...that will bee a realy good fight!
otorinolaringolog013 4 months ago
The problem with this is that if I remember right, Sauron controls Saruman through the Palantir, so basically Saruman would never turn against Sauron, and Sauron would probably have Saruman killed after victory. And yes, Uruk-hai beats orcs, but Sauron got so much bigger forces and so much more allies, also I think the Nazguls alone could give the Uruk-hai some serious problems. Not to forget that if Sauron got the ring, there would be no way Saruman would defeat the dark lord.
rkrokberg 4 months ago
@rkrokberg Yes, it is right that Sauron controlled Sarumans palantir to corrupt him, which did not work on Denethors palantir. However Saruman had plans to rule all of Middle Earth, he would take the ring and bend it to his will.
Baurles 4 months ago
@Baurles "There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power!"
-Gandalf to Saruman. The Ring would destroy Saruman. Don't try to mess with Tolkien's work. These are all established facts which cannot be bended
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Baurles "There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will, and he does not share power!"
-Gandalf to Saruman. The Ring would destroy Saruman. Don't try to mess with Tolkien's work. These are all established facts which cannot be bended
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 I dd neversay he would suceed.
Baurles 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 "Boromir described the dream he and his brother Faramir had experienced, and which led him to come to Rivendell. He pleaded that the Ring should be used to aid Gondor in her struggle against Mordor, but was told that it would inevitably corrupt anyone who used it. Only a mighty person could hope to wield the Ring against Sauron, and they would in time become a new Dark Lord whether they wished it or no."
Baurles 4 months ago
@Baurles Gandalf was more wiser than Boromir, and he claimed there is only one Lord of the Ring.. Even to Frodo he mentioned "They are one, The Ring and Sauron".. The Ring would overwhelm anybody else who wields it considering it has Sauron's power and Sauron was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth during the Third Age..
"You cannot wield it, no one can. The One Ring answers to Sauron alone, it has no other master"
-Aragorn to Boromir.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Yes, but it was not Boromir who said that, Boromir said that he wanted to take the ring to Gondor, however the council of Elrond convinced him that that would be foolish, only a very mighty man could use it, and then he himself would become the new Dark Lord.
Baurles 4 months ago
@Baurles Nobody can become the new Dark Lord.. Anybody with the Ring would be destroyed with its power.. The Ring will ultimately find its way back to Sauron..
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Baurles Nobody can become a new Dark Lord.. The Ring would overwhelm its wearer and ultimately find its way back to Sauron. Thats what it always does.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 No mighty man has yet tried it.
Baurles 4 months ago
@Baurles Ahem.. Galadriel did. She's almost as powerful as Gandalf or Saruman, and the Ring overwhelmed her
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
Galadriel is not as powerful as Gandalf or Saruman, she's only one of the mightiest Elfes, not any more.
I know who Huan was, but now you're saying Sauron was less powerful as a Wolv, but Saruman as human not? And if Saruman feared Sauron is not clear, because when he say that he was not saying the truth any more, so you cannot clear decide. And Sauron is copying Melkor, eg Barad-Dur and Angband.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron is influenced by Melkor, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is copying him.. Sauron just inherited his title as the second successful Dark Lord.. And the Dragons and Balrogs were likely to ally with Sauron.. Why do you think Gandalf sent Bilbo and the Dwarves after Smaug? He feared they would ally with Sauron.
Sauron only went into hiding after Melkor's downfall.. Everything Melkor did, Sauron was crucial to him. Sauron never feared the Elves..
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Gandald said, that he doesn't know if Sauron is in Dol Guldur, he only thinks that. After he left the dwarves near Dol Guldur they find out who it was. Also the Hobbit is outstanding and a standalone Adventure( eg there is said, that in Bree lives human, Elves and Dwarves). And the ring could not stay at Rivendell, because the Elves also cannot win a war against millions of Orcs alone, so his speak
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
Sauron isnt the most powerful in Middle-Earth during the third age. There are Bombadil and others, also Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar. The only thing is, that they loose their power in being humans over the time. But Gandalf went back from Valimar after the fight with the Balrog. Gwaihir said "You are like light now, not heavy like the last time I carried you."
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Bombadil is a pacifist.. Gandalf and Saruman are Maiar, but so is Sauron.. And besides, Tolkien mentioned Sauron is one of the most powerful Maiar, while Gandalf and Saruman are pretty much average Maiar.. And they don't loose their power in being humans, they are just authorized to use it whenever they are facing very dangerous situations, Eg- Gandalf vs Balrog..
Rule out Bombadil, considering he wouldn't fight. Sauron is the most powerful otherwise.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
Bombadil isn't a pacifist (help frodo and killed(don't know the word for "unhold;-)) only he don't worry about what is out of his land. But he's the first and the master, his own words.
Also Sauron is not much powerful than the other Maiar, he only likes more to battle. And Tolkien wrote in his letters and in the lost Storys, that Maiar get more and more human when they are in Middle-Earth. Like eating, sleeping and these things.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron is one of the more powerful Maiar.. Sauron loves strength, its a well known fact that is why he joined Morgoth.. And Huan wasn't an Elf, he was a Hound.. Sauron fought Huan as a Werewolf.. Sauron was dangerous, his return sparked fear into Saruman also..
But Tolkien made it obvious from his works that Maiar like Eonwe and Sauron are among the more powerful while Gandalf and Saruman are among the average
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
And a Balrog is not very dangerous for a maiar it(!)self, Feanor killed a few of them before Gothmog killed him(Dagor-nuin-Giliath). Sauron was defeated by elfes too when he walks as a human in Middle Earth (Luthien and Huan eg.).
So in a battle Sauron is not such dangerous any more like in earlier times, and Gandalf is fresh from the West^^
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
And a Balrog is not very dangerous for a maiar it(!)self, Feanor killed a few of them before Gothmog killed him(Dagor-nuin-Giliath). Sauron was defeated by elfes too when he walks as a human in Middle Earth (Luthien and Huan eg.).
So in a battle Sauron is not such dangerous any more like in earlier times, but Saruman is in this time only a human with a few powers. Not even the shire he can conquer without Isengard. Alle he can do is to copy from Sauron, like he copy from Morgoth.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron did not copy Morgoth, he pretty much worshipped Morgoth.. He rightfully became the Dark Lord after Morgoth's defeat, but Saruman was a Sauron copycat.. Saruman was just a freak who thought he was evil but the thing is, commanding 10,000 Uruks doesn't necessarilly make you evil.. Morgoth and Sauron were pretty much evil, so were all the creatures like the Dragons, Werewolves and Balrogs that served Morgoth..
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Moepp89 The Balrog in Moria, and Smaug, had they participated in the War.. They would have allied themselves with Sauron, considering the fact that he was the embodiment of Evil at the time.. Balrogs and Dragons are themselves more evil than Saruman, they would have rather destroyed his forces than join him
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
Also the dragons or the Balrog wouldn't allie with Sauron, because they didn't do that at the sec. Age. And they was made for Evil, so you cannot compare with Saruman.
And Sauron feared the Elfes and other Maiar all over the time, everytime when Melkor was defeated Sauron hides. He never get himself to battle, not in Dol Guldur, not in Barad Dur. He didn't contact Smaug when he was powerful, or at Erebor. If he was so powerful, I'm wondering why...
Also Saruman did not^^
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron only went into hiding because Morgoth was outnumbered and defeated.. "And Sauron feared the Elfes and other Maiar all over the time", just because it happened during the War of Wrath doesn't necessarily mean this happens all the time. Why do you think Sauron destroyed 2 Elven realms.. Its the Elves that feared Sauron, as Elrond himself admitted the Ring could not stay in Rivendell
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 If Sauron don't fear the Elves, why don't use them as slaves, like Morgoth did before? Why kill all of them? There are no Elven-slaves all the time for Sauron only Morgoth have some. And if Sauron is so powerful, why hiding when Melkor is defeated? He always hide when mighty Elves are near, like Elrond, Celeborn or Celebrimbor. So Sauron is not as powerful as he wanted to be. And the fear of the free peoples makes him bigger in their head as he was really. Said by Gandalf
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron only went into hiding because he did not have an army.. Sauron was actually very powerful, The Ring is proof of it.. What if he got back the Ring? Nobody would be able to stop him.. And he did not hide from Celebrimbor, for god sake he fucking tormented Celebrimbor and overran his kingdom.. He even killed Gil-Galad, the last High King of the Noldor.. You're not realising all of this.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Of course I'm realisim that, but you don't see the complete. When did he kill Gil-Galad? When Gil-Galad went through a great battle and get tired. Sauron has all Jokers in his hand and was defeated at all. When Sauron is so powerful, why he need to reign through the rings and not through his own power? He needs the knowledge of Eregion to make his ring. And it don't work, only at humans.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron made the Rings because he wanted to control the will of the free people.. He did not seek knowledge from the Elves dude.. I think you're crazy, you're forgetting the fact that before his service to Melkor, Sauron was a servant of Aule, the Smith.. He infact gave them knowledge, his plan was to seduce the Elves into his service which didn't work.. He didn't want to destroy the Elves, he wanted to enslave them.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Sauron was defeated twice: Making the one ring->defeat Eregion, Guild region->defeated by Gil-Galad and the Numenorian first time->Sauron flee and want to began a big war-> Ar Pharazon came to Middle Earth and take Sauron to Numenor->Numenor destroyed by Eru-> Saurons Torso killed, he came back to Middle Earth-> Elendil came, found Gondor and Arnor-> Sauron attacks Gondor, last Alliance-> Sauron defeated second time. Numenorians were in Middle-Earth before Numenor were destroyed.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Yeah well, you're right, thats what I have been trying to explain to you.. In the end, good will always win. But saying Sauron is not that powerful is ridiculous..
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 I#ve never say "Sauron is not powerful", only Sauron is not the most powerful in Middle-Earth. He was never such a powerful creature he wanted to be. Sauron is only like a little kid that want to be like his Daddy (Melkor). And he doesn't do this very well. So he is probably strong, but not such powerful. He#S not wise, not tricky, never clever;-) To be the most powerful and the mightiest, he have to be more than to be only one of the strongest. Apologize my english^^
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 He is tricky and higly clever.. The Rings of Power are proof.. The fact that he tricked the Elves into making the Rings is proof that he is very clever and cunning.. I never said he is the most powerful in Middle-Earth.. I just said that he was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth during the Second and Third Ages.. Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond.. None of them could come close.. Of course Melkor is more powerful since he is a Vala, Sauron is "one of the most" powerful Maiar..
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512
Sauron had not to hide, because the Orks were not killed all, also dragons, wolves and balrogs. He had only to grap this army to continue the fight of Morgoth. But he didn't, he hides and came out later to the Elves to try his plan with the ring. He was not strong enough to win the battle against the Elves. Also Celebrimbor hasn't any kingdom he was the head of Gwaith-i-Mírdain. They were walking Elves. And Celebrimbor doesn't talk to Sauron in Barad Dur by torture
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Celebrimbor was the king of Eregion.. And remember the War of Wrath when the Valar? Most of the Orcs destroyed, Balrogs and Dragons were destroyed as well.. Sauron barely had an army to continue Morgoth's war.. Hence the Rings.. Celebrimbor was tormented to reveal the location of the other rings.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Curufin wasn't a king, so Celebrimbor cannot be a king at all. Gil-Galad was. Celebrimbor was only the head of jewelers.
And he said nothing to Sauron. The most battles against the free peoples Sauron lost. It's fact from the books. In the Film it was different. Gil-Galad brought him back to Mordor and there was the last battle, not in Rivendell, Eregion or at Cirdans place, the grey havens...
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Did you read The Silmarillion? Celebrimbor was the ruler of Eregion, and after he learnt of Sauron's deception he was captured by Sauron and tormented to reveal the location of the other Rings.. Then the War of the Elves and Sauron started. Sauron overran Eregion and Eriador, hell even Elrond was unable to defend the realms, he gathered the survivors and found Rivendell.. The only thing that saved the Elves was the arrival of the Numenoreans
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Yes I read it for many times, but i understand it, too. If you have to attack me personally I know what kind of human you are. Poor. Read it again and now with your head. In Middle Earth the Norldor only have one High-King. Maedhros gave the Titel to Fingolfin-> Fingon->Turgon->Gil-Galad the last one. And the Dwarves also learn from Aule, like Celebrimbor and Feanor before. Read and understand that the head of the Guild is not a king;-) Eregion wasn't a kingdom only a region.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron one of the first to learn from Aule.. So that means, he had more knowledge than any one else.. Feanor, Celebrimbor, and the Dwarves all come in later.. The only one who can probaly rival Sauron in crafting powerful items is Feanor.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 You're showing all the time that you want to see Sauron was the most powerful. All you're arguments are wrong or nothing. Sauron the first learning from Aule? Yes, but not longest. When did you learn more? When you are learning the forst, or learning a long time? And you never answer to question: When he's so powerful, why he never win? Sometimes he wins a battle, but if he want to began a real war he was beaten up very strongly. Everytime.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron was not beaten strongly, the good side actually suffered heavy loses and you know that.. Morgoth was very powerful yet in the end he also lost his war. Its always the case, the good guys will always win. And there's no stopping that
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Sauron never killed Earendil. Dwarves not important? Interesting but wrong.
But it's fact that 3 of 4 parts of his plans didn't work. 1. The Elves 2. The Dwarves 3. To kill all Elves and reign over Middle-Earth. That shows how clever Sauron was. Really clever. Sauron gave his own strength to make his plan working, but it didn't. He makes himself weak to get it work. But it didn't. He gave the Elves and Dwarves a new weapon in that rings that made this peoples stronger against him.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Sauron never aimed to enslave the Dwarves.. His aim was against the Men and Elves.. And secondly, even if his plan against the Elves did not work, the Elves still got hammered when they learnt of his deception.. Remember, the Elves are very wise.. You need to be really tricky and clever to fool the Elves.. And Sauron pulled it off. Only the Numenoreans saved the Elves, and you know Sauron tricked the Numenoreans into their own downfall
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 When he never aimed to enslave the Dwarves, why the rings?And from where you want to know that?He tried, he wanted. And Elves were wise yes but thats only proof of that Sauron is a good actor. That changes anything about his plans that didn't work and his great mistakes and his hidings. Also the dwarves came from Moria and fight in Saurons back in Eregion, not only Numenoreans and Elves,but they didn't have to. So Dwaves weren't irrelevant. But this victory they made only easier
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Remember, Elrond said Dwarves are not that reliable.. Sauron made them more unreliable, because the Rings made them more greedy and unreliable.. And you're actually saying it was easy for Sauron to get defeated? Dude you're talking like Sauron was a big sissy and a dumbass.. Seriously you need to think because you're ignoring the simple fact that the Elves got tricked by Sauron.. If Sauron ever made a mistake, it was that he underestimated the Hobbits, which caused his downfall.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Yeah, Elrond also like Dwarves as best friends. Dwarves also say that above Elves. And Sauron is like a little kid sometimes and not such powerful you want that he was. Proofs I show you the last times, but you ignore them. The books and letters tells it in another way than you say and thats fact.
And I#m not ignoring that some Elves were tricked by Sauron, I said it in my last post. Have you read it? Elves was tricked a lot, so it's not THE big thing and no proof for power.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 You're also ignoring the simple fact that the Elves are more wiser than the Dwarves, and Dwarves are more greedier.. And the books, letters, and Tolkien himself said Sauron is very clever and cunning.
The Elves being tricked it not proof of power, its proof of his cunning.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 More wiser than Dwarves yes, but what means that in this relation? I've nothing said in this way. Wisdom is not equal to knowledge or a sign for strength or something else. The Wisest can be tricked by a normal thief. Then the thief is not very powerful, hes good in this little job. Sauron for example as an actor when he can change his body. To be powerful is more, and his "plans" show that he's not such clever, they didn't work!
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 You're not getting my point mate.. I'm talking about Sauron's cunning, not power.. His plans did work, you're just ignorantly claiming that they didn't without realising he corrupted the Men, made the Dwarves greedy and hammered the Elves.. His plans were the reason the War of the Ring happened, and he almost won it.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 You said "Sauron is the most powerful in Middle-Earth in..." and I show you that's not true.
Which war he won? Have you another book? In my ones he was defeated twice and killed at the end of the third... You never answer to my questions. The dwarves were greedy all time long, the ring make them only stronger against Sauron, because of Stubborn. And I say yes, the plan with men did work, and he tricked a few Elves. But the rest? It's only a smart part of all. The rest didn't.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 If his plans would work, there has to be no war, because he would rule all. Did he? Not really. I'm ignoring nothing, but I see everything, not only what I want to see. Everytime I ask you anything you didn't answer. Why? Not shure about your knowledge? I said a long time ago, read the books again and you will see what "power, knowledge, and cunning" Sauron really has. It's not clever to think about plans that never works, I repeat it.
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 Okay, well half of his plans worked.. His plans against the Men worked, it partially worked on the Dwarves.. And it worked on the Elves to an extent, since the Elves were almost defeated by him.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
And the rings are not proof of his cleverness, because they didn't work, only the human ones. The dwarves never accept him as king, only more stubborn than before. The Elves also never work. Very clever if most of your plans going wrong. You cannot explain that with "good will always win". It's not clever to think over plans that going never to work
Moepp89 4 months ago
@Moepp89 His plan did work.. He tricked the Elves into making the Rings, and he created his One Ring in secret. He destroyed alot of kingdoms and regions including Eregion, killed Gil-Galad, and Earendil, corrupted the men further, and with the Ring he broke the line of kings. In the end he almost won it, it was only luck that the Ring got destroyed. Only the Elves did not work, and Dwarves were not that important.
The fact that he tricked the Elves into making the Rings was clever
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Moepp89 The Rings certainly are a way to express Sauron's cleverness: true, the Three and Seven didn't served their purpose as planned, but the Three had to be hidden and weren't used, while Sauron was able to manipulate the keepers of the Seven (Silmarillion). Also, the One Ring enhanced his power greatly, and the Nine were completely in his control. And in the War of the Ring he lost because of the greatest power of all: Eru, the Creator (in the Letters, 246 is one of them).
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Eru never came to Middle Earth, also like any Valar in the third age.
Moepp89 2 months ago
@Moepp89 Since when does Eru needs to come down to Arda to interfere with his creation? Eru is much greater than any Vala: he is their creator too. He was the equivalent of the Christian God.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo where and when did he interfer??
And don't start with Christians it would start a new discussion without sense and resolution;-)
Moepp89 2 months ago
@Moepp89 That's open for discussion: some think that Eru directly interfered by letting Gollum slip, others argue that he affected much more of the story, based on events of Pity and Mercy, as the "Writer of the Story".
There is another case of intervention from Eru: he was the one that send Gandalf back.
Tolkien wrote LOTR, and the rest of his works, from a Catholic stand of view. Also, he didn't consider Middle-Earth as a fantasy-world, but the earth where we living upon.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Tolkien wrote that he don't want that anyone compare his works and the real life. He was influenced, but it's no symbol or anything like this. Eru didn't send Gandalf back or where did it stand?
IN Silmarillion stand that Eru said to Manwe that he had to rule on his own way, he don't want to interfer. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Some people thinks that Bombadil is Eru but Tolkien said he's not, so you see, if someone "think sth" it's not true
Moepp89 2 months ago
@Moepp89 That's not true: Tolkien wrote he despised allegory, but not applicability. In many occasions, including the LOTR foreword, he clearly compared Middle-Earth to Europe, but stated that those days were gone, and the shape of lands changed drastic. By "allegory", he meant something completely different: basing a lot of the story on, let's say, the events of WWII.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@Moepp89 Now, for the intervention of Eru: yes, he stated that he doesn't want to interfere. Yet, he did it on several occasions, like when Aulë created the Dwarves and when Mandos wanted to restore Beren's life. Also, he interfered with great power when Ar-Pharazon attacked the Undying Lands, reshaping the lands.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@Moepp89 Now moving to the War of the Ring, I stated Gandalf was send back by Eru. I will now prove this by quoting from Letter 156, where Tolkien stated:
"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors, but Authority [Eru] had taken up this plan and enlarged, at the moment of it’s failure. […] Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ [Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and time."
Prove enough? Moving to the next point then.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@Moepp89 Yes, I know Bombadil isn't Eru, yet the point of view about the events at Mount Doom came from people who, like me, studied Tolkien's writings a long time, and discussed a lot about it. From LOTR and the Silmarillion to HOME and the Letters, people have gathered a lot of information to prove and disprove points. The discussion about the interference of Eru wasn't about whether he interfered or not, but how: the consensus is, based on Tolkien's writings, that he did interfere.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@Moepp89 The Last Alliance was formed later after the destruction of Numenor.. Sauron killed Gil-Galad and Elendil, but defeated by Isildur.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Moepp89 But saying Sauron is not tricky and clever is ridiculous..
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 "Don't try to mess with Tolkien's work", you say? By trying to prove you're point by stating movie-quotes, you're actually messing with his works...
In many occasions (not in the last place the Letters, here 246), Tolkien stated that very powerful persons could wield the Ring, and some of them (namely the Maiar) would stand a chance against Sauron if they did. And when Sauron was defeated by such person, that person would've taken his place as Dark Lord, and as Lord of the Ring.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo But weren't you also the one that agreed on the fact that the Ring would only answer to Sauron?
Mordor6121512 2 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Not completely: Sauron was the Master of the Ring, yet others could wield it. And from the moment one who'd mastered the Ring defeats Sauron head to head (like I said, only a Maia could do that), he would take over his place as Dark Lord and Master of the Ring (Sauron would end like he did when the Ring was destroyed: as a powerless spirit). But there were powerful Elves who could master it too, yet they weren't powerful enough to challenge Sauron directly, but by military force.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo But Gandalf and Saruman aren't powerful enough to challenge Sauron directly.. And with the Ring more closer to Sauron, whoever uses it against him would be enslaved, wouldn't they?
Mordor6121512 2 months ago
@Mordor6121512 The Letters state quite clear that Gandalf, off course when he mastered the Ring, has a chance to challenge Sauron and win. Tolkien used the argument that Gandalf was "an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taken visible physical form."
It's undoubtedly a reference to his Maia stature, which means that Saruman also could control the Ring before his fall: afterwards he was too weak.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@Mordor6121512 You're confusing the power of the One Ring with the power of Sauron: the One Ring made it possible to control the Ringwraiths. They were enslaved by their Rings, not directly by Sauron. As seen in Letter 246: if Frodo would've claimed the Ring at Mount Doom, the Nine would wait for Sauron himself to crush Frodo, even obeying minor orders from Frodo. But not the ones that were opposed to Sauron's errand, for Sauron held the Nine and therefore had primary control over their wills.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Funny how much people know such things, that Christopher never heared^^So you also doesn't see what happens when Maia went to Middle Earth in their human being. Saruman as a human such powerful as Sauron in his Maia being? Great idea, then the whole battle is without sense^^So study this senseless story in your own way like before,but began to understand what you read. You show your "knowledge" in a interesting way, by showing how big is your fantasy^^
Moepp89 2 months ago
@Moepp89 Christopher does know it: he published the Letters. If you don't know it, it doesn't mean Christopher doesn't know it. Also, it's Saruman who mastered the Ring who stand a chance against Sauron.
About the Istari: their human shape doesn't mean they were Men: yes, their shape restricted them a bit in power and knowledge, yet the main source of restriction were the Rules laid upon them (as seen in the Letters and Unfinished Tales): they were forbidden, not unable, to use their powers.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo But isn't the power of the One Ring and the power of Sauron one and the same? I mean, Sauron can see all who weild the Ring, and he held the Nine Rings, so if Frodo wears the Ring the Nine would find him, wouldn't they?
Mordor6121512 2 months ago
@Mordor6121512 "Sauron can see all who wield the Ring." Ever heard of Peter Jackson? That guy who invented things like Lighthouse Sauron? I knew you did. Let's say that whole "can see who wears it" is another invention of him. Think about it: throughout the books, Sauron didn't know who carried the Ring, and even failed to see it when Sam wore it at Cirith Ungol. The whole idea behind it is just idiotic.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Yes, the Nine can feel the presence of the Ring, but not it's exact location. They could find him, and see him, but especially that last thing is because they are spirits. Also, in the scenario I paraphrased from the Letters, Frodo had reached Mount Doom (during the journey his own power had grown) and claimed the Ring, two fundamental things one needs to consider. In that same scenario, Frodo was found by the Nine, but they would only block the passage to the Crack of Doom.
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
@MasterBombadillo Ok then why did Witch-King stab Frodo when Frodo was wielding the Ring?
Mordor6121512 2 months ago
@Mordor6121512 My advice for you is to read what I say before criticizing it. I already answered you're question in the post you've responded to...
MasterBombadillo 2 months ago
nice idea!
CountryBredJedi 4 months ago
if the company had failed Tom Bombadil would have defeated them all with his dance O.o
CarpetofLeaves 4 months ago
1 uruk hai kills 10 orcs
Mrmontgommeryburns 4 months ago
Mordor FTW
TheLatiosnlatias02 4 months ago
this is stupid.
Sp00LcoX99 4 months ago
uruk hai pwn
jackafa92 4 months ago
Even if Saruman had fought with the fellowship, the ring would still have had to be destroyed in the fires of mount doom. And yes, Sauron was stronger than Saruman, however the first wars of the rings the combined force of elves and men managed to beat Sauron army for army on the battlefield.
StrathendrickPiper 4 months ago
well isengard would lose but not easily uruks are much stronger and better armores and equipted then orcs
Wenix100 4 months ago
Trolo lo lo lo lo lo lo ha ha ha ha haaa ha ha ha ha *splat*
CoolKillerClan 4 months ago
@lelocedo how can u think that isengard is small compared to mordor. Sauron would woop saruman's ass. Plus don't forget that sauron has the nazgul.
713wonderboy 4 months ago
Isengard are dead. Especially when the olliphants come out
WhitneyElizabethH 5 months ago
Well, to answer the question of who'd I want to win, I think I would just want them to keep fighting each other until both sides have destroyed each other.
Stardweller1 5 months ago
would need to do is use the creatures in the world that arnt controled by saron, like the giant spiders, and balrogs and even dragons
tom0mot0carroll 5 months ago
numbers do not win a battle, and isengard is a much more advanced adversary, and have uruk hi and orcs, even if mordor outnumber isengard i believe it would be abit like 3oo where the spartens kicked ass for bare time only thered be tens of thousands, and in the film gandalf said 10,000 orcs are in frodos way of mount doom, and greemer says it would take ten thousand orcs to take the keep and saruman says tens of thousands, meaning there could be like 50,000, and hell all saruman
tom0mot0carroll 5 months ago
@tom0mot0carroll First of all, if Balrogs or Dragons would take sides, they would ally with Sauron.. Because Saruman is not at all evil, the Balrogs and Dragons are much more evil and nastier than him.. Sauron is the big evil Dark Lord after Morgoth, not Saruman. Secondly, Sauron has Black Uruks outnumber Saruman's Uruk-Hai and they are equally fierce.. Thirdly, the book clearly states Sauron is more powerful, do not deviate from what the book said
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
@Mordor6121512 you do realise i do know the characters and that balrogs are much more evil then sruman....... souron in person is much more powerful then saruman, through what you have said to my comment you have not taught me a single thing that i have already known....... also there is a big WHAT IF facter, and its just a friendly discussion, i have read the books from the hobbit to the lord of the rings and the children of hurin, and i used the idea of the 300 movie as an egsample,,......
tom0mot0carroll 4 months ago
@tom0mot0carroll You can't use 300 as an example.. Seeing clearly, Sauron has Uruks in his ranks and they outnumber the number of Uruks that Saruman has.. His army is not only made up of Orcs, dont forget Easterlings that are as deadly as Uruks.. And Trolls obviously, which Saruman doesn't have
Mordor6121512 4 months ago 6
@Mordor6121512 Also, Sauron has ´The One Ring.
Baurles 4 months ago
isengard is stronger
lelocedo 5 months ago
what is the song ...
lelocedo 5 months ago
Or does he attack when he has grown a army large enough to defeat Sauron. It also depends on who the Evil Men decide to serve. I personilly belive that they would follow Saruman rather than Sauron because Sauron isnt phisyicly there to perswade them while Sarumon is and his skills at persawion are legendary in middle earth.
deathlord135 5 months ago
@deathlord135 But they are many evil men certanly the men of Rhun and Harad will continue to serve the Dark Lord while the dundelings Saruman. And in this "alterned universe" Sauron has the "Precious", sorry the Ring, so he would be able to asume phisical shape. I would say Mordor for Isengard has stronger troops, Uruks, which could kill Mordor orcs and Mordor Uruks or "Black orcs" but they would be hopelessly outnumbered plus if we add the mumakil the Nazgul and the Fell Beast the battle islost
campusservant 5 months ago
Minas Tirith get destoryed? It also depends on just how Rohan was defeated, did they even retreat to helms deep? Or did the Fellowship get destoryed in Amon Hen. As well as the fact of who has the ring Sauron or Sarumon, If Sauron has it Saruman is screwed but If Saruman has it or it is lost than Sarumon has a good chance of winining. It also depends on just when Sarumon decides to attk mordor and Sauron, does he do it when Sauron is attking Minas Tirith?
deathlord135 5 months ago
@deathlord135
If Saruman had the ring that would be a guy who can kill thousands within hours by himself, plus maximum 30k uruks, 10k warg riders, 1k dundelings and a couple of k orcs. So It would be about 50k. They might have a chance vs the mordor forces of around 300k orcs, 200k uruks, 100k evil men, thousands of trolls, giants and wyrms and creatures if they went to a castle or made a new one. Like Minas Tirith or Minas Morgul but if they attacked mordor they would die! They will lose!
MooX101 5 months ago
I feel it smart to add that with the destruction of rohan Isengard would have more land under its control than mordor since Saruman would most likely seize all of rohans resources after rohans defeat at helms deep. The remaining forces of Isengard could perhaps hold off the armies of mordor depending on a few factors. Who won in the north of middle earth? Did the easterlings defeat the dwarfs and elfs? Did Dol Guldor get destoryed by the elves? How much of Sauron's main army that attacked
deathlord135 5 months ago
Saruman never win sauron. The haradrim is very strong army and the nazguls. Isengard is a small fortres
DawnDeath19 5 months ago
Saruman never win sauron. And the haradrim is very strong army
DawnDeath19 5 months ago
I understand as do many quite rightly, that Sauron has like hundreds of thousands of Orcs, Easterlings, Haradhrim and others; and Saruman had 10,000 Uruks and a few thousand Wild Men, and a few hundred Warg Riders etc - so the first thought is...ok, Sarumans Uruk army we see at Helms Deep is lethal for its size and would cut through an equivalent 10,000 orcs easily, but say if all the Mordor forces attacked these defending Isengard, eventually it would be overrun and Saruman killed (continued)..
ThePalaeontologist 5 months ago
@ThePalaeontologist ..though it would be interesting to see how many Mordor Orcs he'd kill with powers before then. However, what if we consider Saruman built up that 10,000 very quickly and they (in spite of being beaten and annihilated at Helms Deep by the free peoples and Huorns) were indeed an army more than worthy of Mordor. Saruman, if he had 100,000 Uruks of that quality, could win the war eventually. His inventions could counter enemy Mumakil/Nazgul (these he could face personally) etc
ThePalaeontologist 5 months ago
okay seriously do you have a clue how GOD DAMN BIG SAURONS ARMY IS???? he has not only orks fighting for him..he has also humans like the easterlings and the the people from harad on his side....mordor is an entire much bigger then isengard and sauron is the most powerfull wizard warlord in the world with his ring on....he could only be defeated by a force bigger then the elves an man toghether because he would be more carefull this time...tolkin would turn over in his grave if he saw that xD
ichTraylo 5 months ago
the uruk-hais would beat the orcs
the trolls would beat the wargs
but in the end the Ring and the Nazgul would tip it for Mordor
smilepublications 5 months ago
hmm well Isengard has the stronger uruk-hai, wargs, and dundainlings or whatever tbey are called, and mordor has rhun harad, trolls, and Nazgul so i vote on Mordor
Beorg63 5 months ago
Isengard army has Uruk-Hais so they are strong.But Mordor has Nazgul's + Trolls.
Psychohungary 5 months ago
@Psychohungary Not to mention Mordor has the Black-Uruks, Olg-Hai, Great Beasts, millions of orcs, more territory, stronger forts, and Sauron himself when he gets the ring. Even withouth the ring Mordor would pwn Isengard in a heartbeat. Look at the size of Isengard then look at Mordor. I rest my case.
HermiOdleProduction5 5 months ago
@HermiOdleProduction5 Well yeah,but if frodo fails at amon hen aruman could get the ring.Than he could pwn mordor.And didint you see how fast saruman got 10,000 Uruk hais?If Saruman wouldent be that stupid and he leaved some uruk hais at isengard when they attacked helms deep,the ents wouldent take over isengard and they would fail.Than Saruman could do a big army of uruk hais.And they pwn the normal mordor orcs.
Psychohungary 5 months ago
@Psychohungary hey have you read the books and have you seen the movies?? nobody knows what would have happend if saruman had the ring...would he turn into a person like sauron or in one like gollum? if the fellowship failed at amon hen the orc company would still be killed by eomer and his men and sauron would destroy rohan....
isengard wouldnt have the chance to get the ring and mordor has an army that has millions of orcs and thausends of men in it.
ichTraylo 5 months ago
Mordor Isengard Friend
yusuf0081 5 months ago
Saruman made 10.000 Uruk Hai s just in a short time.In a fight with Mordor , Saruman will make more Uruk Hai s.Maybe 50.000 Uruk Hai s + 5.000 Dunlending Warriors
POLORAS 5 months ago
@POLORAS
Lol, Hardly. Even if he could make 55k warriors altogether Mordor can make over that many in a week. Just their orcs are in the hundreds of thousands, plus harad, corsairs, easterlings, mumakil etc. 100k, plus their uruks that are stronger, bigger and more of them are about 150k, wargs are like 75k plus 9 nazgul and loads of fellbeasts and lots of evil creatures. Apart from the men they make that in days but to make 50k of uruks in like 5 months. Mordor will aways win! Don't Argue.
Astrox123 5 months ago
Mordor is stronger but Isengard is cooler.
debelidjole 6 months ago 41
@debelidjole uru-hai sind stärker qwasi isegart is stärker mordors orks haben waggelpuding als gehirn und sind schwach.
crissi275 4 months ago
@debelidjole i dont think so, uruk hai was so fast made that if saruman would win in helms deep, he would make more troops than sauron and quality would be much better than mordors orcs, true he didnt have mumakils and trolls but technologically he have advance, and not to mention warg raiders
electricatom2 4 months ago
@electricatom2 You guys ignore the simple fact that Mordor has Black Uruks which are as strong as Saruman's Uruks.. And if Saruman would have won in Helm's Deep, Sauron would not have just stayed quiet and watched Saruman uprising.. Sauron is much more smarter than Saruman, and he is more technologically advanced.. Saruman has ladders, ballistas and battering rams.. Sauron has catapults, siege towers and Grond. And he has his own Wargs.
Mordor6121512 4 months ago
lol mordor would win anyday...
maniacboyz7 6 months ago
Orc are weak! the uruk-hai are the best .
Elcollpohorrible 6 months ago
i like orcs better because they have a funny sense of humor.
brandeezy108 6 months ago
@brandeezy108 Yes that may be true.
Elcollpohorrible 6 months ago
I dont want to watch a 1 minute movie. lol
1tacoman17 6 months ago
mordor wins because mordor have a corrupted mens of Harad and the Easterlings, and they fight better that orcs and uruks, and fight in a light day.
aranhaloco 6 months ago
lol isen ...mordor hav best hero thgan isengard....Rhun pike ( humain) better than uruk (sure) stop with u fuking orc......haradream /mumak....8 horse nazgul.....or fly nazgul.....Who can beat Wking and soron ? Isen ? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz never.....archer uruk SUK vs Harad and Umbar pirat r faster use fire on build and unit....And troll after..poor Isengard....vry limited
32120Dns 6 months ago
Isengard made a army of 10.000 in a few days, while Mordor had many years to come up with their army... Thanks to Saruman Isengard made many new tactics and improvements to armor and weapons. If both factions had the same amount of time to prepare Isengard would win, Mordor would only win thanks to Nazgrel.
F0ck93 6 months ago
@F0ck93 Mordor has Trolls, they don't even need the Nazgul to crush Isengard... Isengard was mainly Mordor's little bitch and Mordor was the main threat.. That speaks for itself, don't try to mess up the LotR plot..
Mordor6121512 6 months ago
@Mordor6121512 Ofcourse Isengard was Mordor's little bitch because Isengard only became evil in the last second.
F0ck93 6 months ago
@F0ck93 An army of 10.000 in a few days... the funniest joke, except for Lighthouse Sauron, in LOTR history.
I mean, come on. 10.000 in a few days, why didn't he create some more? No, Saruman gathered his army by breeding and assembling Orcs over a period of many years, at least 18. Creating such army in a few days would mean that Saruman defied the laws of Iluvatar (who was God).
And Orcs aren't born from mud you know.
MasterBombadillo 6 months ago in playlist LOTR
@MasterBombadillo so ur saying saruman had 10.000 uruk-hai hiding in his basement? and everyone knows orks are born from poo not mud :-)
F0ck93 6 months ago
@F0ck93 Actually, yes.
Tolkiens writings, thus the best sources possible, are proving me right: The Silmarillion stated explicitly that Orcs multiply like Men an Elves do, and The Hobbit included Orc-children. So there is no discussion possible about the fact Saruman needed many years to create his army. Not to mention they weren't all Uruks, and much of his army is a gift from Sauron.
MasterBombadillo 6 months ago