you can see where the fighters kill the the gunners, no way the can sit in their position and stay there. 50mm guns and 20mm cannons vs an airframe = dead gunners
I would guess that the reason why the crew isn't firing back is because they are dead or wounded. They wouldn't bale out before the aircraft had been crippled. Also they are probably flying at over 20,000ft, breathing via oxygen masks and shivering in 30° below zero cold next to an open window with no armour plate in a flying petrol tank carrying three tons of high explosive. They had balls these men.
@DaveBC1 Absolutely right. A good fighter pilot attacking from the rear would often pick off the tail gunner first before doing more damage to the B-17. Luftwaffe officers worked out that it took about 20 hits with 20mm cannon to bring down a B-17 from behind (Wikipedia). Not the sort of damage you could inflict with a quick pass. Note the fighter pilot aiming for the left engine rather than the fuselage when he was really close.
@pervertt - I would guess the attacking pilot would aim at the engines because if he aims at the fuselage he might hit a bomb and cause the plane to explode. Close up that would kill him as well. Also he may not be completely without empathy and shooting the engines gives the crew a chance to survive.
@midairflyer - Yes, of course. I'm not sure what your point is. If you fire a 20mm or 30mm explosive round at supersonic speed into a bomb it will probably explode.
This was in fact used as a German propaganda film, but it is in fact actual gun camera footage of an attack on a fully-crewed B-17. German gun cameras didn't record in frame-to-frame real time. A typical firing pass actually took only two to three seconds. Remember too that the gunners were bundled in sheepskin, parachute harnesses and flak suits trying to keep their 50 cal. 150 lb. guns aimed in a furious slipstream and hopefully, not jamming or freezing up. Not like Hollywood...
I'm sick and tired of seeing this same film of this B-17. This is a German Propaganda Film showing German pilots how easy it was to shoot the B-17.What they didn’t tell the pilots that the crew had already bailed out! You can see that none of the gunners on the B-17 shooting back at them. Even on the second pass the guns have not moved on the B-17. Our gunners would not let Germans get that close and not fire at them. This was told to me by a high ranking C.A.F. member over 10 years ago!
US insistence on assuming nearly all daylight bombing missions instead of sharing this role with other allies resulted in large numbers of lost planes and crews. B17s could put up a fight, but were at a disadvantage with .50 cal mg vs. 20mm cannons in 109 / 190 (as one of my WW2 vet uncles still believes, thanks to the US corporate CEO mentality used to wage WW2). FW190 was at least an equal to the P51 in a dogfighting role, deciding factor was usually pilot skill.
The allies just swamped them, they lost twice as many aircraft and many of them were 4 engine bombers. The Germans easily outfought them on a one to one basis, but the allies could afford to loose the 40 thousand aircraft shot down they lost and the Germans could not afford to loose the 15 they lost shot down and the 20k on the ground or being refurbished built in factories.
Germans had world best technology, but allies had more and more and more, just not as good weapons. THe allies were better businessmen, germans better scientists. In a war, economics is more important than innovation.
I mean, the king tiger tank was a great machine too, but it did not effect the outcome of the war. The Luftwaffe was blasted from the sky, regardless of their aircraft.
I respect your opinion, but you missed my main point entirely, which was that strategically the Allied powers used the daylight bombing runs to lure the Luftwaffe into the skys in order to destroy it as a fighting force. They were very successful. You can argue that certain German aircraft were quality machines but your point is moot. Read about how Bud Anderson, a P-51 pilot, shot down 10 or so FW-190's. Germany suffered from ill-trained pilots, lack of fuel and materials.
By early 1944 the daylight bombing runs were intentionally used to lure the Lufwaffe into the sky so it could be destroyed. By that time the American P-51, superior to the ME-109, escorted the bombers in large numbers. More than 800 German planes were destroyed, making the Lufwaffe ineffective by D-day in June of that year. This information was gleaned from declassified documents. The B-17 crews were used as bait. It worked.
@balerick48 To say the P-51 was superior to the Me-109 is not a realistic comparison. The FW-190 was superior to the mustang, but there wasn't enough pilots at that point to use it to its full potential. Every American and British pilot that flew the FW-190 after the war all said it was superior in every aspect to the mustang. German pilots didn't rotate out of action like the allied pilots did. They flew until the war ended or they died. Allied pilots flew a certain amount then went home
Plenty of liberals have fought and died in all of the wars that America has participated in and will continue to do so. My father was a liberal and he was stationed at Pearl Harbor during World War II. My uncle was a liberal and he was a forward artillery observer during the Battle of the Bulge. My great-grandfather was liberal and he was a cavalryman at Gettysburg, Brandy Station and Yellow Tavern.
I met a B-17 pilot here in WA. last year. He said that a lot of the crew members of the B-17's were very scarred of the Germans. The guys trying to get to Switzerland in Catch-22 is no joke.
that particular film is from an ME 110, no 109 had that kind of firepower, its in the gun camera archives. dont count the US out yetthere are plenty of real men here, they just dont live on the coasts. Only the hollywood cultists think this is a good thing
i hate this thumb up and thumb down bullshit. if you disagree with someone tell them. it must be that liberalism infestation you talked about. i thumb up you sir.
@christof139 Russian have destroyed absolute most part LuftWaffe. I think, if not Russian the American carpet bombardments of Germany would be ineffective in view of huge losses of the American planes.
@BaranovV, Not quite. B-29 was the best, & the B-24 Liberator & British Lancaster also carried more bombs than the B-17 & had a looongg range. USSR Pe-8 was only produced in small numbers, ~93, but if the USSR could have devoted more resources to developing it than it had available due to the Nazi invasion, the Pe-8 would have been developed more with more of a bomb capacity & would have been a good & plentiful long range bomber. b-17 was like the T-34 & Sherman tanks - many, many of them.
@deino117 Ever hear from some of these gunners from the b-17's? Most of them (from which I've seen interviews) have said it was near impossible to hit such a small and fast moving target.....I just feel horrible for these men who gave their lives.....what it must have been like up there.....
@littletone I bet it was hard to hit anything. But the B17 wasn't called a Flying Fortress for nothing - they could put out a wall of metal, and one German pilot who actually bagged a few said the trick, in a head-on attack anyway, was to get lined up correctly, then close your eyes for a few seconds so you didn't get freaked out by all the fire coming at you. After a few seconds you were close enough to open up.
it seems b-17 and gunners are like sitting ducks for me-109, i wonder what's the mess inside when bullets just hit the plane, can they even see anything outside. But nevertheless i'm sure you got to be lucky to attack more than one untouch b-17's and still be alive. I don't know the statics...there is few ace records putting down b-17's in one flight ? propably returning planes end of rounds or something? Still strong engines in that b-17
@aaKonda, In 1944 alone the USA produced ~100,000 aircraft, & by Jan. 1942 USA aircraft production exceeded that of any other nation, even though we entered war on Dec. 7, 1941. B-24 heavies were also produced by the thousands, as were B-29 heavies, & lighter Mitchells, Bostons, Marylands etc.
i saw a better video of that b-17 getting nailed on youtube yes the tail gunner was likely killed the ball gunner did return fire for one or two busts then he stopped firing honsetly im suprised the B-17 engines did not blow up with the amount of cannon that hit what a tough plane wow and a 109 must have had unloaded all its ammo to take a b-17 down(unless it was fitted with gunpods)
@hollebKN are you Crazy??B 17 is so cool! I Love USA!!
Blockmaster98 1 week ago
I like American terror bombers being shot down.
hollebKN 4 months ago
you can see where the fighters kill the the gunners, no way the can sit in their position and stay there. 50mm guns and 20mm cannons vs an airframe = dead gunners
midairflyer 5 months ago
I would guess that the reason why the crew isn't firing back is because they are dead or wounded. They wouldn't bale out before the aircraft had been crippled. Also they are probably flying at over 20,000ft, breathing via oxygen masks and shivering in 30° below zero cold next to an open window with no armour plate in a flying petrol tank carrying three tons of high explosive. They had balls these men.
DaveBC1 7 months ago
@DaveBC1 Absolutely right. A good fighter pilot attacking from the rear would often pick off the tail gunner first before doing more damage to the B-17. Luftwaffe officers worked out that it took about 20 hits with 20mm cannon to bring down a B-17 from behind (Wikipedia). Not the sort of damage you could inflict with a quick pass. Note the fighter pilot aiming for the left engine rather than the fuselage when he was really close.
pervertt 6 months ago
@pervertt - I would guess the attacking pilot would aim at the engines because if he aims at the fuselage he might hit a bomb and cause the plane to explode. Close up that would kill him as well. Also he may not be completely without empathy and shooting the engines gives the crew a chance to survive.
DaveBC1 6 months ago
@DaveBC1 omg really?? you know what a FUSE is?
midairflyer 5 months ago
@midairflyer - Yes, of course. I'm not sure what your point is. If you fire a 20mm or 30mm explosive round at supersonic speed into a bomb it will probably explode.
DaveBC1 5 months ago
This was in fact used as a German propaganda film, but it is in fact actual gun camera footage of an attack on a fully-crewed B-17. German gun cameras didn't record in frame-to-frame real time. A typical firing pass actually took only two to three seconds. Remember too that the gunners were bundled in sheepskin, parachute harnesses and flak suits trying to keep their 50 cal. 150 lb. guns aimed in a furious slipstream and hopefully, not jamming or freezing up. Not like Hollywood...
madcitymcflyer 7 months ago
I'm sick and tired of seeing this same film of this B-17. This is a German Propaganda Film showing German pilots how easy it was to shoot the B-17.What they didn’t tell the pilots that the crew had already bailed out! You can see that none of the gunners on the B-17 shooting back at them. Even on the second pass the guns have not moved on the B-17. Our gunners would not let Germans get that close and not fire at them. This was told to me by a high ranking C.A.F. member over 10 years ago!
fish621825 8 months ago
US insistence on assuming nearly all daylight bombing missions instead of sharing this role with other allies resulted in large numbers of lost planes and crews. B17s could put up a fight, but were at a disadvantage with .50 cal mg vs. 20mm cannons in 109 / 190 (as one of my WW2 vet uncles still believes, thanks to the US corporate CEO mentality used to wage WW2). FW190 was at least an equal to the P51 in a dogfighting role, deciding factor was usually pilot skill.
ninagingofarmcat 8 months ago
The allies just swamped them, they lost twice as many aircraft and many of them were 4 engine bombers. The Germans easily outfought them on a one to one basis, but the allies could afford to loose the 40 thousand aircraft shot down they lost and the Germans could not afford to loose the 15 they lost shot down and the 20k on the ground or being refurbished built in factories.
leftoverpoet 8 months ago
Germans had world best technology, but allies had more and more and more, just not as good weapons. THe allies were better businessmen, germans better scientists. In a war, economics is more important than innovation.
ModellMeister 8 months ago
... Luftwafe a perdu la guerre a cause de mauvais munition - inefficace ...
klaspas 9 months ago
I mean, the king tiger tank was a great machine too, but it did not effect the outcome of the war. The Luftwaffe was blasted from the sky, regardless of their aircraft.
balerick48 10 months ago
@balerick48 They were built too good. Made them too difficult to make in any quantity.
tryithere 10 months ago
I respect your opinion, but you missed my main point entirely, which was that strategically the Allied powers used the daylight bombing runs to lure the Luftwaffe into the skys in order to destroy it as a fighting force. They were very successful. You can argue that certain German aircraft were quality machines but your point is moot. Read about how Bud Anderson, a P-51 pilot, shot down 10 or so FW-190's. Germany suffered from ill-trained pilots, lack of fuel and materials.
balerick48 10 months ago
@balerick48 read hoe eric hartmann shot down 352 russian and american planes :)
nimbalo300 9 months ago
GET SOME!
dynaflow74 11 months ago
By early 1944 the daylight bombing runs were intentionally used to lure the Lufwaffe into the sky so it could be destroyed. By that time the American P-51, superior to the ME-109, escorted the bombers in large numbers. More than 800 German planes were destroyed, making the Lufwaffe ineffective by D-day in June of that year. This information was gleaned from declassified documents. The B-17 crews were used as bait. It worked.
balerick48 11 months ago
@balerick48 To say the P-51 was superior to the Me-109 is not a realistic comparison. The FW-190 was superior to the mustang, but there wasn't enough pilots at that point to use it to its full potential. Every American and British pilot that flew the FW-190 after the war all said it was superior in every aspect to the mustang. German pilots didn't rotate out of action like the allied pilots did. They flew until the war ended or they died. Allied pilots flew a certain amount then went home
DeutscheRitter1 10 months ago
B-17 could take a lot more fire than the B-24.
th3sp0rk 1 year ago
09.05.1945
BaranovV 1 year ago
There should be a rule, 1 politician is killed for every 10 brave boys that die in a war. I bet they'd be a lot more hesitant to start wars that way.
Vegasoon 1 year ago
greatest respect to both allies and axis pilots....
you guys should just stop and think about it and about the sacrifices both forces made.
sandynathan 1 year ago
Plenty of liberals have fought and died in all of the wars that America has participated in and will continue to do so. My father was a liberal and he was stationed at Pearl Harbor during World War II. My uncle was a liberal and he was a forward artillery observer during the Battle of the Bulge. My great-grandfather was liberal and he was a cavalryman at Gettysburg, Brandy Station and Yellow Tavern.
thehistorywatcher 1 year ago
I met a B-17 pilot here in WA. last year. He said that a lot of the crew members of the B-17's were very scarred of the Germans. The guys trying to get to Switzerland in Catch-22 is no joke.
SgtBastard101 1 year ago
Death from below at Schweinfurt.
3shacks1house 2 years ago
that particular film is from an ME 110, no 109 had that kind of firepower, its in the gun camera archives. dont count the US out yetthere are plenty of real men here, they just dont live on the coasts. Only the hollywood cultists think this is a good thing
zempke 2 years ago
In this day and time, a Liberalism-infected America couldn't muster up 10 men to fight a war like WWII.
noacronym 2 years ago
i hate this thumb up and thumb down bullshit. if you disagree with someone tell them. it must be that liberalism infestation you talked about. i thumb up you sir.
bryankelly 2 years ago
@noacronym And in WW2, America was led by liberal FDR communists.
inhocsignovinces88 1 year ago
@noacronym, You're an idiot.
christof139 1 year ago
nachnorden, Keep your neo-nazi BS to your no-thinking self.
christof139 2 years ago
@christof139 Getroffene Hunde bellen
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, So, you feel guilty about something since you are replying?
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 I feel guilty???????You are wrong
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, I don't either, so you shouldn't have posted that phrase in German directed at me. Raus mit diene scheisse.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 Whats with you, you talk German with me, enemy haha
You fight for the Judes
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, You're quite arrogant & stupid.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 Fucking Child
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, No, I am near 60. you are the stupid, silly, inexperienced little child & twat.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 oh excuse, fucking old man
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, You are a queer.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 ok its enough you dont understand
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, Uh-huh. I understand more than you understand.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 than translate: Eigenlob stinkt!
nachnorden 1 year ago
@nachnorden, Nein. No need to mit du.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 Russian have destroyed absolute most part LuftWaffe. I think, if not Russian the American carpet bombardments of Germany would be ineffective in view of huge losses of the American planes.
BaranovV 1 year ago
@christof139 B17 its best hight bomber in ww2
BaranovV 1 year ago
@BaranovV, Not quite. B-29 was the best, & the B-24 Liberator & British Lancaster also carried more bombs than the B-17 & had a looongg range. USSR Pe-8 was only produced in small numbers, ~93, but if the USSR could have devoted more resources to developing it than it had available due to the Nazi invasion, the Pe-8 would have been developed more with more of a bomb capacity & would have been a good & plentiful long range bomber. b-17 was like the T-34 & Sherman tanks - many, many of them.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139 I am sorry. I have mixed b 17 and b29. Certainly b29 the best in the class, without dispute.
BaranovV 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@nachnorden, I don't either, so you shouldn't have posted that phrase in German directed at me. Raus mit deinne scheisse.
christof139 1 year ago
They fight for the death of the white race, bravo no-thinking-US
nachnorden 2 years ago
@nachnorden And now we are choking on our pyrrhic victory. Our country is an obamanation.
inhocsignovinces88 1 year ago
It was damn risky for the attacking fighters too. Those B-17s could dish it out.
deino117 2 years ago 4
@deino117 Ever hear from some of these gunners from the b-17's? Most of them (from which I've seen interviews) have said it was near impossible to hit such a small and fast moving target.....I just feel horrible for these men who gave their lives.....what it must have been like up there.....
littletone 1 year ago
@littletone I bet it was hard to hit anything. But the B17 wasn't called a Flying Fortress for nothing - they could put out a wall of metal, and one German pilot who actually bagged a few said the trick, in a head-on attack anyway, was to get lined up correctly, then close your eyes for a few seconds so you didn't get freaked out by all the fire coming at you. After a few seconds you were close enough to open up.
Anyway, horrible, horrible way to go, agreed.
deino117 1 year ago
it seems b-17 and gunners are like sitting ducks for me-109, i wonder what's the mess inside when bullets just hit the plane, can they even see anything outside. But nevertheless i'm sure you got to be lucky to attack more than one untouch b-17's and still be alive. I don't know the statics...there is few ace records putting down b-17's in one flight ? propably returning planes end of rounds or something? Still strong engines in that b-17
johan361 2 years ago
About 4750 B-17:s were dropped in WW2, about 1/3 of the production.
In 14 October 1943, 77 B-17:s were lost over Europe, the day is known as the Black Thursday.
aaKonda 2 years ago 9
14 october 43 attack on ball bearing factorys in schweinfurt
a hell of a fight
colonywars83 2 years ago
@aaKonda, In 1944 alone the USA produced ~100,000 aircraft, & by Jan. 1942 USA aircraft production exceeded that of any other nation, even though we entered war on Dec. 7, 1941. B-24 heavies were also produced by the thousands, as were B-29 heavies, & lighter Mitchells, Bostons, Marylands etc.
christof139 1 year ago
@christof139
Umm... yes... is there a point behind all this?
aaKonda 1 year ago
@aaKonda, Yes, informing people lacking knowledge of facts.
christof139 1 year ago
i saw a better video of that b-17 getting nailed on youtube yes the tail gunner was likely killed the ball gunner did return fire for one or two busts then he stopped firing honsetly im suprised the B-17 engines did not blow up with the amount of cannon that hit what a tough plane wow and a 109 must have had unloaded all its ammo to take a b-17 down(unless it was fitted with gunpods)
grodspc 3 years ago 2
both tail gunner and ball turret gunner are dead ,it sucked to be a b 17 gunner
pudransemarikas 3 years ago
It's called the bf-109... and lol at the he's dead comment
qpwoei282 3 years ago
if the guns arent firing or not moving it means either, out of ammo, dead gunner, or gun servos are out. the power to he turrets can be knocked out.
cptviolenc 3 years ago
very good clip and to the guy under me the tail gunner probably died i saw atleast the rounds hit his postiton
rdvd7 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This odd and where is back shooter? B17 were armed very good. German a bit propaganda
Qbadre 4 years ago
no they wernt they had like a 40% casualty rate they were like cans with engines and guns
potheadj 3 years ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This odd and where is back shooter? B17 were armed very good. German propaganda.
Qbadre 4 years ago