Thomas Campbell - Workshop Questions - Vegetarianism

[SirTubelot]

Aren't plants also conscious, albeit with a small decision space? As vegetarians, are we not imposing our will on plants when we harvest and eat them?

[twcjr44]

@SirTubelot : "Aren't plants also conscious, albeit with a small decision space?"

No, plants do not make decisions -- they only react to stimuli. Plants are not sentient entities. They may have a form of "consciousness" at the feeling level, but no decision to choose from, no free will, no intellectual component to their awareness.

[ainjoy]

@twcjr44 have you seen the secret life of plants? its here on you tube. amazing stevie wonder soundtrack too ; )

[twcjr44]

@ainjoy, I havent "seen" it but I read the book (by Clive baxter, I believe) many years ago.

Like Japanese Dr ? who freezes water and the ice crystals react to emotional input from humans, I think the fundamental ingredient is intent modifying an uncertain reality rather than plants and water having a an analytical awareness or consciousness.

Tom

Tom

[ainjoy]

@twcjr44 good point. we can never get ourselves out of the equation when were the ones measuring something. i think what may be happening is whenever we pay attention to something else we project out own 'life force' upon it. everything could be nothing at all until we perceive it to be 'alive'....

[TheProdigySupreme]

Good question Martin

[Ogre2011]

Plants have a consciousness as well, read 'The Secret Life of Plants', thus with this logic one should scavenge on plant matter as well.

Food that is already dead immediately begins to putrify, at the molecular level. This advice is against basic scientific knowledge.

Further, cats never eat the mouse, rat or grass snake, they play with then and then just kill them. This maintains the predator-prey curve, keeping things in balance between species.

[Ogre2011]

Lions also kill leopards, in order to reduce the competition for prey, they never eat the leopard.

Killing animals for food is not unethical, only when this is done for fun, or sport, such as game hunting sports - bird shooting, fox hunting etc

But one could argue that the farmer/hunter is also maintaining the predator-prey curve, much like the lion-leopard example, or cat-mouse.

[Ogre2011]

The farmer must hunt foxes to reduce his losses to his livestock, likewise, bird shooting may prevent the birds from eating the seeds.

It all depends on the intent of the person.

"Its not what you do, its how you do it [or your intent behind your actions]"

[twcjr44]

Exactly!

[twcjr44]

No one said that killing an animal for food was unethical. You must have be thinking of someone else's video. I said that killing animals when it is unnecessary, i.e., out of habit or for fun and pleasure is immoral. Most people can eat well and be healthy without eating meat -- certainly without eating as much meat as they normally consume. Eating meat (killing animals), for the most part, in our culture, is a habit, a pleasure, an unnecessary indulgence.

[Ogre2011]

"Most people can eat well and be healthy without eating meat"

Please provide some scientific sources for this, this is an opinion not a fact. The scientific literature, and expiriental knowledge is on the contrary to this assertion.

I'm curious where did you acquire this 'knowledge' for these arguments? They are reminiscent of eastern philosophy, repackaged with a veneer of science.

[preliudas]

@Ogre2011 If you are so "intelligent", why don't you do research and you'll find ALL the answers to all your questions !

[Drastam]

Incorrect re meat diet. Research the relation of illness to dietary patterns around the globe & you will find societies which have high meat consumption have high levels of degenerative diseases...especially heart disease, the leading cause of death in western countries.

The meat industry is a powerful lobby group and ordinary western people are educated to believe they must eat meat to be healthy, so relevant scientific studies are ignored by mainstream media.

The The data is there - Google.

[Ogre2011]

You know that man craves spiritual knowledge, which has systematically been taken from him.

You also are aware of the fact that most people do not have the long term inclination to successfully practice astral projection, thus will 'take your word for it', a new doctrine is born - evident from the + comments left without deeper thought into the matter.

Further on a radio show you stated that one does not need to astral project in order to lower his entropy

Hypothesis w/o Evidence = Religion

[twcjr44]

Reducing competion is a matter of survival for lions.

[BFDK]

This will be interesting for you:

Go to the board, find the thread: "Moral Code Part II"

Read "Killing other sentient entities for food and other useful materials" and the rest of that paragraph.

You could also do as I suggested in my first post in this video, it may lead you to a great discussion about plants and consciousness.

[twcjr44]

I disagree. Though plants may have some sort of "awareness", plants are not conscious and have no decision space or free will choices in the same sense that sentient beings do. Yes, I have read Baxter's book. Listen to the video and you will see that I did not suggest that people eat road kill--rather, for example, that they eat some steak their spouse couldn't finish. You seem to be trying very hard to find something to disagree with. After bogus arguments fail, denial usually follows.

[Ogre2011]

I am being open minded and skeptical, which I believe you encourage. No denial has occurred, so why try discrediting someone in this fashion?

No one man has all the truth.

"that they eat some steak their spouse couldn't finish"

What kind of an argument is this? if you want to talk about what the human body is designed to eat - based on physiology, human anatomy, health, diet, thats another matter.

[Ogre2011]

For the sake of argument lets go along with your line of reasoning - eating akin to a scavenger does not act honorably, you are therefore prepared to perpetuate the practice by tacit agreement.

Yes one should not act like a vegiNazi and force others to comply, but neither should you submit out of not wanting to cause a dispute, have a back-bone if they cannot respect your decision(s), thats there problem, not yours.

Further, you did not respond to the logic of balance in nature

[Ogre2011]

For the record please provide your deifinitions of 'consciousness' and 'awareness'.

Simply saying an argument is bogus is not scientific. Since you have opted to come on a scientific platform to discuss this 'hypothesis' you should be prepared for scientific scrutiny - unless you have an alternative agenda?

Further, why dictate as to how someone lives? if your method of lowering entropy works, surely these higher 'morals' would come naturally, and there would be no need to preach it.

[twcjr44]

"a scavenger does not act honorably" makes no sense. A" vegiNazi" makes no sense. I do not see how any argument you have made so far is in any way logically connected to anything I have said. You read much into what I have said that is not there. "so why try discrediting someone in this fashion?" The answer is frustration at total failure to communicate coupled to tiredness --however, that is no excuse and you are quite right -- I do apologize -- the comment was both unnecessary and unhelpful.

[Ogre2011]

those quotes do not make sense because they have been taken out of context. Anyone who reads the original comments' will understand.

By 'not acting honorably', I suppose this would translate as: detrimentally affecting the 'entropy of your consciousness' and/or personality, perpetuating the practice of killing by tacit agreement and submission, and thus bringing about an immorality issue.

[Ogre2011]

A 'VegiNazi' - one whom over-zealously, forefully, or with a fundementalistic attitude perpetuate a vegetarian-based dietary regime.

Although at the end of your lecture, you do say not to go to extremes, i.e. use of words like 'Never' & 'Always'.

Western thought is governed by Aristotelean logic, thus we are prone to going to absolutes, or extremes, and exclude or overlook middle ground -thinking relatively that is. Thats the reason why we sometimes use "and/or" due to this intrinsic flaw.

[BFDK]

Ogre2011, are you familiar with TEDtalks?

Go to their channel, and watch the video "Dan Buettner: How to live to be 100+" You will see that eating plants has a major role in a healthy life.

Scientific evidence shows that vegetarianism has very positive effects on the body, and mind. Average IQ is about 5 points higher in people having a vegetarian lifestyle.

It is a pain in the ass to link to websites in Youtube, I won't bother with that. You have the find them for yourself. ->

[BFDK]

Writing "Please provide some scientific sources for this, this is an opinion not a fact. The scientific li [.....]" Suggest to my that you have been biased in your reading, as that is completely false.

If you did as I had suggested earlier you would have found several threads with many pages each that discusses this subject, it would be more productive instead of going to lengths here on youtube comments, this platform is not good for that.

Most of the answers to your Q's are there, read it.

[pgreens]

Thomas Campbell...The fact that you even reply to these comments....well sir, I tip my hat to you. Thank you so much.

[ouijaboy666]

well said. This is my approach, too. For me, better to practice chi-gong and eat vegan than attend parties.

[BFDK]

Great subject, and good answers :)

If you are looking for more answers regarding this subject, go to the discussion board (First link in description and then under information in left side: "Discussion Groups") Then use the search function, at "Search for author" you write "twcjr", you can then write "Vegetarian" or something else and get some good threads to read.