Re: Jehovah's Witnesses 1914 Doctrine is Correct - Part 1

[bardarians]

What comic book are you reading brav?

[jamesandchante]

I agree, we cannot make blanket generalizations. I do not think that the 1914 idea can be proven as being true just because of what he is saying. I do not know they truth. I now realize that all the things I thought were true are not; since the Watchtower society are huge liars.

[pretoshohmoofc]

This guy I found to be odd. He has rejected the WT as a false prophet,,.. but still excepts some of their teachings as true...Hmm... Eatting from a pig's trough ...ewww....

[stonewallgregg]

The ol strawpirate argument

[tshorse]

what in Hell are you talking about? so all the incidents that you talk about are not true which means the Bible is false , so what? what are they (jw) supposed to do? quit?

PS: i hate your music

[gabbsdad]

Who cut your hair mate? Looks really smart!

[TimKilgore]

@gabbsdad In this video I don't think I had cut it for over a year. I recently cut 6 inches off though.

[jamesandchante]

@TimKilgore At least we are searching for the truth, I hate that the Watchtower society cares nothing about the truth. I doubt that they even believe God is real. I think they are athiest; otherwise, how can they not fear that Jehovah will punish them for thier lies?

[TimKilgore]

@jamesandchante Someone can be sincere and sincerely wrong. I don't think God will punish anyone for being fooled, the bible says "Satan has blinded man's eyes towards truth". That's my feeling though, the prophesy stuff though is where it gets hairy, that's where I think they'll be punished.

[jamesandchante]

@TimKilgore I totally agree with you. I studied the NW translation of the Holy Scriptures to see whether or not the interrpretation of the Bible the JWs gave me was logical, for the most part it was. There were certain aspects of their doctrines (about the 1914 date for example) that I did not quite understand, but I thought it was just my own ignorance about ancient history and math that was to blame. I learned many beliefs of other religions too...

[jamesandchante]

@jamesandchante such as the eternal torment in hell, and the Trinity. I looked to the Bible to see if these teachings were scriptural. I do not believe eternal torment in hell in supported by the Bible. I did not believe in the Trinity because the NW Bible doesn't support the idea that Jesus is God. I didn't know that tons of scriptures in the NW Bible have been purposely changed to disprove the Trinity. I thought that since I read my Bible from cover to cover I was being careful.

[jamesandchante]

Yet, I was reading an inaccurate translation. Now, I guess I have to start over from scratch. I will read several translations from cover to cover this time. Anyway, my point is, I sincerely tried to learn the truth about God, but Satan blinded my eyes to the truth, through false prophets. What kind of loving God would punish people who sincerely try to get to know him and follow him? Of course, he wouldn't. However, God will punish those who purposely twist his word.

[eternityandforever]

@jamesandchante I don't think you even know A THING about what you are talking about.We study the bible diligently,and research every scripture to be sure it is accurate and the truth.We are OBEYING Jehovah in every way, so we have no fear of punishment. WAS NOAH SCARED when he loved God so much and did 'just so'? We follow the bible 'just so' and we are glad to teach others to learn the bible the correct way, too. You shouldn't go around spreading lies about Jesus' modern day disciples-be true!

[jamesandchante]

@eternityandforever Well, I thought I knew the truth too, because I dilligently studied the scriptures. There were certain passages that I did not get the same ideas about their meaning as the Watchtower organization does. I thought I I was misunderstanding it, and the organization was right, because they have God's Holy Spirit (so I thought). But, I have found that the organization tells lies, and made many false predictions. I also found that other Bible translations are different.

[jamesandchante]

@jamesandchante I have been a faithful JW for about twenty years; I've pioneered, and taught the "truth" to my kids. I want to believe I wasn't lied to, and I wasn't tricked. I want to believe I didn't waste my time, and teach my kids and others lies. I want to believe that the end will come any moment, and God will save me (I've been a good person, who has done "just so") until a few weeks ago, when I discovered the "truth" is a lie.

[jamesandchante]

@jamesandchante Simply put, either the Watchtower organization has been guilty of false prophesying, or God has been telling lies to his people. I believe God over the Watchtower men any day. Who do you believe, God and his word, or men?

How can we know for sure whether or not someone is really feeding us spiritual food from Jesus? If the things they say come true; if they are no part of the wickedness of the world; if they have love among themselves..., They are in the UN...

[jamesandchante]

@eternityandforever What translation of the Bible did you use in your investigation of the scriptures? I used the NW translation; but, I was shown that it is inaccurate. No matter how much you read that translation you will need the organization to help you understand it, because it was been translated in a way to support the JW doctirne. I do not "spread lies." The Watchtower organization "spreads lies." How can they be "Jesus modern day disciples" and false prophesy?

[AuxentiusZ]

The 1908 thing was weird, but there were some issues with your response. JW's believe that Michael is Jesus' heavenly name, in his position as the archangel Michael. 7th Day Adventists (and a number of 2nd Adventist splits) believe similar, although they vary on the Deity of Michael/Jesus. The Second Adventist tradition has given us many uniquely American doctrines, and this was one of them. Interesting post though, these doctrines aren't often discussed when speaking about JW's.

[TimKilgore]

@AuxentiusZ You should read about JWs explanation as to why Jesus was worshipped in Revelation by the angels. You'll see that their explanation fits basically identically to the 7th Day Adventist deity of Christ. The whole thing comes from Ellen White, since Russell was an Adventist that tradition followed.

[Stopshoplifting]

There is just one small problem. Biblical, historical and astrological evidence is overwhelming that the Jersulam fell in 587/588 not 607. There is no biblical or historical evidence to support 607. Also, keep in mind, the 1914 teaching was borrowed by the WT from The Seventh Day Adventist and Russell supported it with measurements of the pyramids. This in itself will tell you the interpretation is false.

[TimKilgore]

@Stopshoplifting I know, check out my video on the subject that this response video is in regards to.

[Fizzypop1211]

@Stopshoplifting

Your comment sounds really "shocking" - but where is the evidence?

[ghostgate82]

I'm a Christian/Muslim and this is the first time I've EVER heard of this 1914 doctrine stuff. I don't understand it. If Satan was thrown out of heaven in 1914, then who was tempting Yeshua on top of the mountain 2000 years ago?

[TimKilgore]

The theory is that before then Satan could go to earth and heaven as he pleased, then in 1914 Satan was hurled down for good.

[Fizzypop1211]

@ghostgate82

Job 1:7

[ghostgate82]

@Fizzypop1211 Yes, I understand that they went to and from the earth to wherever Heaven is, but where does it say Satan is permanitly here now? And starting in 1914 no less...

[Fizzypop1211]

@ghostgate82

Revelation 12:7-9

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Good on ya! I'm bad with the exact verse the most I had was the chapter.

[ghostgate82]

@Fizzypop1211 Okay...I'll ask this again. WHERE does the BIBLE refer to 1914? Please answer this time. If you can't explain where this date actually comes from, please stop teaching it.

[Fizzypop1211]

@ghostgate82 in 482 characters:

Luke 21:24 Times of Gentiles = last God approved king (Zedekiah) to next God approved King (Shiloh - Jesus) Ezek 21:25-27. Zed. removed in 607 BCE via Nebuchadnezzar. How long? = 7 "times" (Dan 4:16) How long a "time"? Rev 12:6 and 14 tells us "time, times and 1/2 a time" (31/2 times)= 1260 days. So 7 times = 1260 x 2 = 2520 days. Numbers 14:34 advises days = years for error. So 2520 days= years. 607BCE plus 2520 years = 1914 CE (note, there is no year "zero")

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Alrighty now two quick things, how do you make this fit in with Ezra chapters 1 - 3 where it describes when the temple was built and in what year of Cyrus so that when you go back it doesn't come to 607 BCE. And two, how do you know the Daniel Prophesy correlates to our day since it shows fufillment in the following chapters of Daniel?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I think you look at the evidence and decide for yourself about the 70 years, 537, (587?!) 607 date thing. The writings in the British Museum show a penchant for Rulers to "bend the truth" when circumstances were too enbarrassing- like when was / wasnt at Lachish (had to explain away losing an army somehow). I'm happy with 607 - you clearly aren't.

Daniels prophecy stretches way forward - even Alexander the Great came to realise that when he was shown writings applicable to him.

[Fizzypop1211]

@Fizzypop1211

I've just seen you are based in US. if you ever decide there is a reason in your life to visit Britain, do one thing - go to the British Museum and jump on the back of one of the tours. Just hang around, follow and listen. Maybe one of the most interesting 60 minutes of your life to date.

Not saying it will change you, its all secular history and everyone has an opinion -but the Brits collected some interesting stuff when they had world influence.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 My wife's family is from Oxford, I'm supposed to have a booking in August up there but this will be the third attempt as the other two fell through. I would love to though, I love anything related to history.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

there you go - we're practically cousins already!

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Except when multiple sources of carbon dating AND history all agree with each other right. You're the second person talking to me about this, I think I might end up having to make a series on this.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I think maybe where we differ from more literal interpretations is we essentially believe MANS history is circa 6000 years to date, (along the lines of a creative day being 7000 "man years" in length; we are currently in the day referred to in Genesis "God's rest) but that does not preclude pre human dinosaurs. Carbon dating tends to give everything millions and billions, where we think the bible indicates some things are more recent. But for me, its not a deal breaker.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Please look up a city called Hamoukar. Carbon dating doesn't really date things in millions and billions though, bear in mind that there are several ways that things can be dated. Think about this, if there are dated records for a certain period, the recorded history matches the records, then the carbon dating matches then what question really is there. Again the whole 607 thing is really correlating two scriptures neither say they were ENSLAVED for 70 years.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

You have raised a lot of points in your comments and kind of caboodled my 500 character response possibility!!

down to the last 2 lines, I would generally be happy to put in the "to be confirmed" pile, as this need not affect faith and belief.

The 70 years (607) is more fundamental from a 1914 point of view. I think 1914 is probably pretty unlikely to change - but, I think there are even more fundamental points to consider than that, so I wouldn't be wrecked if it did...

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

#2 continued....I think you have to start with "do you believe in God"?

then move through the questions, trying to assemble the most reasonable arguments for the time you are living in. I think JWs, imperfect and on occasion out right wrong as they have been, are pretty close to "it" .

I measure that in interpretation of prophecy, sure, but also their record. Neutrality is a big one, public Ministry is big, "feel" is OK most of the time, and "blood" makes sense. So I am OK with 70.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Here's the problem there are some religions that are spot on matches for JWs and you have to ask why are JWs right and they are not. Check out Associated Bible Students, Dawn Bible Students, Christadelphians, Second Day Adventists, etc. Quakers were neutral before JWs were (they were still selling War Bonds during WWI). Public MInistry over a thousand religions do that. Blood, why is their stance of fractions OK and A.B.S. of once blood is separated it's no longer blood not?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I well take your point regarding Quakers, hugenots - Amish and others, both in terms of the route to where we are now and sincerity of believers; also re mistakes, such as WWI - "we (British) had" pre JWs as stretcher bearers thinking was acceptable -brave, riskier but still wrong not clarified until WWII. I think you are right to drill down to a couple of main headings, such as Ministry - would question the "1000's" comment; Blood - am happy for sensible conversation on this.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 1000's might be stretching it but certainly 1000. Blood for me, Associated Bible Students say when blood is separated it is no longer considered blood so transfusions are conscience matter. JWs feel that it needs to be separated further than an initial separation. So the question is given that hemoglobin is the entire contents of a mature red blood cell, how is hemoglobin any less of a part of blood than a red blood cell?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore incidently - my conscience view would appear to mirror your interpretation to at least some degree. Some argue that say, simplistically, water and coffee makes coffee drink, water on its own is not coffee.

I think the real issue is, we know whole blood is a no-no, after that, can you honestly stand before God and state your case and feel comfortable? God requires every one of us to do the best we can individually, using our brain - but we are not to impose conscience.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

For example, My bro in law not JW, but gives blood. I had conversation with him around medicine used from donated blood. His view is that if we (JWs) will not give / take blood but will take benefit of donated blood of others for fractions, we are hypocrits.

I have to say, for a man of few words he made a compelling case to me and chrystalized my thinking quite effectively.

(we had spoken id the "anti-D" for my wife's pregnancy. as rhesus negative )

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Your conscience is mine as well. The big thing for me is that if I accepted a regular run-of-the-mill transfusion which is not whole blood but separated blood red blood cells specifically I could be reprimanded or even disfellowshipped. If I accepted the whole contents of those cells the hemoglobin I'd be fine. That seems to be straining the gnat but swallowing the camel. People have died over this.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore You are right, this is a serious topic. So we have to be honest with ourselves, In full understanding of the potential consequences, what are we trying to achieve here? Is my decision an honest hearted, stand before God decision, were my primary concern it not to offend Jehovah, or, am I trying to find a loophole to enable me to do what I want without either a consequence or criticism? Fortunately for us, we have options now and many docs aspire to bloodless surgery as superior

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

BUT BUT BUT, if Blood transfusions (in whatever form) gave you an extra 50 years and Xray vision, we would still be obliged to say no IF that is what God had required. As I say, blood is denied to us as a commodity - animal blood had to be drained, human blood could not be drunk to cure disease or transfused today to save life. It comes back to What do you believe? Will you honour God? Do you have faith that God will protect your life prospects, even if you die now? It is serious.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Coming up 20 years ago, my kid brother had a sudden unexpected burst aneurism of the aortic artery. He was basically bleeding to death on the inside. He ended up in the London Chest hosp and docs adamant needed blood. We were wheeled in to say goodbye. Hosp Liason comm. major assistance in communications. He was cut open front to back - under his armpit looked like a gill. He is alive today, but it focuses the mind. And sometimes you die whatever is done. docs= no guarantees.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore Our view is that obedience to blood issues is a matter of Worship, not medicine - although, beneficial. ONLY use for blood described in bible was sacrifice to God. Animal sacrifices paved way to final for all tme blood sacrifice - Jesus. Blood is not available to us as a commodity. However, bible does not talk in terms of fractions, so Society cannot legislate, only inform, then our conscience must dictate on fractions. Our motives and reasons are known only by God.Our hope isn't man

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Looking specifically at Christadelphians for a mo, I can see why you would say there are similiarities, what with rejection of mainstream protestant doctrine, etc. But not a duplication - spot on match, they believe Jesus returning to the Earth. Also What about the Ministry? there are only tens of thousands of members, how would it be funded? where is it performed?

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 First off with only a few members doesn't that speak to "cramped and narrow is the road to salvation and few are the ones finding it"? Since they're smaller than JWs don't they match that scripture better. As for their ministry, they do as Jesus did (at least when I met them in PA when I was working a show), they preach in the marketplaces, etc. Basically anywhere with people. Jesus never instructed HOW you preach, just that you preach.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Well, I guess you could read it like that. But we aren't just trying to find slick ways to dispute though, are we? Do you really think the scripture means fewer members is better? or rather, is it indicating the general direction of the world for many would be the chosen path of many whereas, truthseekers would be far far fewer? I have never heard Cdelph ministry and frankly I am impressed you have - So, do they fulfil JC pattern?(Jesus did give lessons and instructions how!)

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 The Watchtower has been quoted as saying fewere members are better, as do many JWs. Then again they also promote their growth as a sign of God's approval, so go figure. I have read about the beliefs of a little over 5000 different religions, I had a goal to learn about all the different denominations of Christianity but that's not going to happen. The religions I mention all only have 1 difference in doctrine between JWs and themselves, just one.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I think I identified a few more key differences than that - not sure how specific we want to be about describing them as doctrine as I don't want to argue over a word, but I am interested now, what is the only difference?

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Come now you did the research you should know the difference, it's glaring. The question is, when you read their reasoning for the difference it's very compelling. I wouldn't say there's any way to really prove it one way or another.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I think what I mean is, what is the difference YOU are talking about ?

(I don't see an overlay)

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Really? You don't get what I'm pointing to? This is a major doctrine in the Christadelphian religion.  You couldn't have done the research if this isn't the first thing you mention.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Not really, it depends on what point you are waiting to pounce with in response. So you want my toe in the water. Ok, well I don't see any need for a worldwide ministry as per hoe Jesus commanded and demonstrated. I don't see they acceot Jesus Parousia as having taken place already in the heavens, I don't see a group co-ruling with Christ i n Heaven over a cleansed earth and righteous subjects (as per Gods def of righteous)...so I am waiting for the whammy.....

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Also

if we are "the same"

Why aren't Christadelphians universally hated by the world? John 7:7 John 15:19

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 But JWs aren't universally hated, think of all the positive articles that are cited around assembly time from people in the area of the assembly. I can cite some WT and OKM articles that show this. If you really want universally hated I'd suggest that you search around the internet for how many sites there are dedicated to Scientology, how crazy every Scientologist is etc. It's roughly 4 times the amount of the anti-JW sites. If anyone is fufilling this scripture it's them.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore I think this is where your thinking differs to mine. Its like, say we are supposed to identify a car that fits the requirements God wants (crazy I know - but stay with...) - and we go and do that - -the car, as a model, ticks the boxes. Then, TimKilgore comes along and says - hey, but check out the wheels on this model. They are much better. And the engine in this model is more economical - and its a V8 - and look, the windows are electric front AND back here. it all misses the point

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

KMinistry WTower shows our value to community and celebrates occasions where it is recognised but we are under legal opposition in country after country year after year, also on a more individual basis, Scientology is something Tom Cruise does, it isn't the first name on peoples lips or doesn't generate the level of antipathy as JW with people. But as I said earlier, you are seriously missing THE point, to find a single point here, a single point there. That could go on forever.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 The problem here is that you say "See we fit bible prophesy" then when someone says "This other group actually fits that better" you will say something to the effect "That doesn't count for them, it only counts for us." This is a fallacy known as moving the goalposts. It's just a dishonest tactic to make yourself appear like you fit certain criteria when in truth it's just deceit.  Scientology is under ban in major countries, JWs are not. Case closed.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

"the problem here" is you are arguing your own argument, not what I said. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are, its a duck. There is no mileage in saying - yea but look at the bills on this or the feet on that or the feathers on the other. They are all birds, but its all the bits together that make it a duck. I believe THAT, is case closed, if we are gonna be "sound byte-ee" about it!

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 If you want to use that colloquialism then I guess you can say if it has had wrong teachings in the past just like false religions, if it mistranslates the bible just like false religions, if it has joined the UN and owns stock in weapon makers just like false religions, well then it walks, talks and acts like a false religion what conclusion does that bring us to? False religions have excuses why it's OK for them to be wrong but not other religions too.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Tim, you are arguing to your pre determined conclusion. Nothing I have said is unrealistic, untrue, moves goalposts, or is unduly rose tinted. I am not oblivious to mistakes. All I am saying, is when you put it all together, (ALL, not just a sound byte) what have you got? Are mistakes addressed, amended, or rigidly held fast? does another banned religion mean They have ALL the other ID to make them "the one" IS the early Christian model one of perfection and no dissent / correction?

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Just saying you're not moving the goalposts doesn't mean you aren't. If I show you a religion that fits the JWs in every single way except one, we'll literally go down a list of the things that need to be in place in order to be the right religion. It will boil down to you asking me "what's the difference between these two religions?" When I tell you is when you'll suddenly say that now that's the reason why they're wrong. It's moving the goal posts a textbook definition.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I have honestly, respectfully and openly engaged all your points without being political, narrow minded or moving any goal posts.

Your comments above are disingenuous. I have not got a list I am going through - I am asking you to substantiate your own point of a "match bar one difference" by coming clean on the one difference you have found.

For you to fear my anticipated reaction is unnecessary. Have I been that shallow with you before?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

And incidentally, I dont believe that the the society would have stock in an ARMS MANUFACTURER without there being any form of qualification - by that, I mean, for example, (and I dont know what you are alluding to) they may have had stock in a company that later merged with another company who had a division that mfrd components that were used by military, The society would have to determine whether this was appropriate. During any "think time" they would be open to any criticism

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Rand Cam, go look it up.  They own the majority share in the company.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

This is mean spirited.

Your comment is written in a sensationalist way to imply the society had somehow got involved with big business in the same way as say the Vatican, When in it would appear considerably otherwise - 2 inventors of an ENGINE sought a percentage to go to society back in the 30's. Years later the company shapes have changes and society took actions address. Are you looking at anything no matter how far fetched to criticise the society? this is not the reason u left

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

AND (last one!) - I didn't have you down as "mean spirited" and I hope that isn't the case, but you are a dad, you know you what you expect of children as they grow, your allowances change to suit the age, ability, - you just want their best, at the time you are looking, allowing for human weakness. You don't discard them at first failure, you mentor them. This is the pattern Jesus gave for his disciples. We are obligated to do our best. Only humans cry about yesterdays spilt milk.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 If you have a drug addicted child, at what point, how many times do they promise to change and don't that you just give up on them. Even though it's hard, even though you don't want to, at what point do you have to let them go their own way?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

but this analogy does not apply - this isn not an obstinate drug fuelled self opinionated lying child we are talking about.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

OK, another post, but really its a previous one so doesn't count ;-) - please tell me the Christadelphian thing YOU were thinking of.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 Again, If you've done the research you would know clearly what I'm talking about. I think you're just using this as a tactic essentially, you have a list of properties that a religion has to fit in order to be considered the right one and this religion (and about 5 others) fit every one exactly. Now you're looking for the one difference so you can point to it and say "see that one thing I didn't list before I now add to the list and it makes them wrong and my religion right".

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I have engaged your point, researched, come back with my views, asked and asked you for your "really obvious single point" and you refuse to say.

How can they fit exactly with 1 difference~?

I have already said to my mind there are more than one but you are sure there is one difference.

So WHAT IS IT>?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Now you are mirroring what I have said to you - I said above you set this up an were waiting to pounce, then, I "tipped my toe in the water" - remember ? - and openly answered you and YOU STILL WONT COME CLEAN!! LOL

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 I guess it's from a wealth of experience in dealing with JWs. I feel the moving the goal posts coming very strongly. I'll say if you want to shoot me a PM with specifically what you're looking for I'll engage and it will kill off the need to keep things under 500 characters.

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

I dont understand. Just state the "one thing" that you found - the thing you thought I would say (but apparently haven't in my previous replies)

I'm not touching any goalposts.

You can email it to me in secret if you like. You can use 500+ characters if you like.

[TimKilgore]

@Fizzypop1211 I don't know how else I can describe it, look through your posts to see how you continually add more and more conditions for why JWs are the true religion. You haven't looked up logical fallacies yet have you?

[Fizzypop1211]

@TimKilgore

Conditions? more like open comments in our conversation.

Do you know what? this is probably I'll bet the most honest request for an answer you have ever had. No strings, no conditions, no goalposts - I have already told you in advance what my responses would be and yet and yet and yet you just wont reveal YOUR point.

Well, I am not a patient man. Cheerybye

[No1Special2012]

This guy looks like a fag.

[TimKilgore]

Maybe you should watch my intro where I talk about being married with a 2 year old daughter? Or read some of my other comments that say my wife is pregnant again with our second child? Or if you just want to look like an ignorant homophobe then by all means keep posting.

[stdominic3]

why wait??im no JW but i know somethin, the reason why it took Yahushwa the Christ 6 yrs before he even get to the throne in 1914 becoz 1000 yrs of man is equivalent to 1 day in heaven 2 PETER 3:8 you do the math now bro maybe 6 yrs on earth maybe just a few seconds in heaven.

[TimKilgore]

Is there a reason why 2 Peter isn't just a metaphor, has anyone confirmed with God that a day to him is really as a thousand years? Why in every other situation when God says a day he means a day, when he talks to Israelites etc, but whenever it's convinient we take that scripture as literal?

[red4macjc]

sure. and the earth and the entire universe are six thousand years old.

[TimKilgore]

HA, I actually do a video on this as well :)

[Iwtlv]

Did Satan get cast out in 1914? Who knows for sure? But to be fair, once a JW explains it to you correctly, it seems that it can very well be possible. As for 1908, I know of no JW who teach this as fact for Satan being cast out. As with most videos on youtube, your goal here seems to be to make fun of JW's (as if no one done that before)! People should try learning truth about JW instead of these hate lies that are spread all over the world. Man, Satan has done a good job, to turn people away!

[TimKilgore]

Like most JWs you assume that I'm speaking against JWs here, have you per chance watched the video this is responding to? Or any of the other ones from Issiah30v8, I'd suggest the response to my baptism question...

[failedtobeperfect]

Mr tim,your one smart man.way too smart.you rule man

[failedtobeperfect]

hey crow 992,dont yuo call me a liar you scumbag.Did you grow up forced to learn this,but your dad was hypocrite drunk?did you grow up as a small child with confusions??go run back to your little cult of communist who like to erae their own famiy members even of their non belivers.

[failedtobeperfect]

I use to be a JW by force as a child.Jesus said the way to learn is to ask questions.ask and ask and ask til you learn,yet these cult people boot you for asking questions.

[crow992]

You lie. Im a Jehova's witness . An i am not forced againts my will to believe in it. But yes Jesus did said that. Ask questions to learn more. Cant argue with that.

[pokersuperstar]

yes you are forced.. if you do not follow none of them will love and talk to you again

[officialuse]

Good post Tim! After watching Isaiah30v8post it was easy to understand why the Kingdom Hall gave him the Boot.

[failedtobeperfect]

woah i thought you were weird al at first LMFAO

[TimKilgore]

You should watch the video I'm responding to first.

[stars4jes]

Your ugly, Going to CAL, i see what my teaachers are talking about, losers like you, yeah well, spreaad wide you pig! Daddies cmon home!

[TimKilgore]

You mean You're ugly. It's a contraction for you and are. I have no idea what a teaacher is, or how to spreaad anything. Actually this whole post makes no sense to me other than the fact you're trying to insult me. Which is pretty funny given by trying to insult me your writing is so horrible you've insulted yourself in the process. What grade are you in 1st?

[2qz4ut]

Too Cool! Man I loved this. And you will know them because they love each other. Ha, Ha, Ha.

[acedan2k]

u crack me up! who wrote ur speech?

[TimKilgore]

Me :)

[steven47234]

blah blah blah your all stupid stupid then reply morons

[TimKilgore]

I think you mean "Blah, blah, blah; IF you'rE all stupid then reply. Morons!" Define irony, the person trying to put an insult as a comment calling people stupid cannot string together a sentence. Can I get a judges ruling here? Yup, it's definetly irony.

[rafy354]

1908 is just a coincidence and has nothing to do with anything, but 1914 does, in fact 1914 was the same year that satan was thrown/kicked out of heaven and sent down to earth........1914 was also the same year as world war one... you see... its all scriptural

[TimKilgore]

How is it scriptural, the bible has no dates in it?

[Mekelsior]

The date 1914 is not scriptiual in any way. As the destruction of Jerusalem was in 587 BC, according to archeology. Chapter 4 of Daniel, speaks of Nebudkadnezars pride, it is a warning and applied only to him. Now, an interesting year is the decree of rebuilding Jerusalem, wich was in 457 BC, and it leading to the first coming of Christ, in 27 AD, the 15th year of Tiberius.

Christ kicked out the devil at a time before the creation of earth. The devil had limited access until the crucifiction.

[rafy354]

well most of the prophecies you would have to figure out..and no Jehovah was not cool with sate ever comin to and fro in Heaven most of the time it was just a test to see if the Angels would lose faith in God and join satan.. regarding the 1914 date.. back in the day, order was interrupted in the trone of davids decendents and the government was opresses in Jerusalem starting in 607 b.c, so then the king of Babilonia, Nabucodonosor, had a vision that men were cutting a giant tree..(continued).

[rafy354]

.....this giant tree (represented God's government in Jerusalem of which was interupted with the action of the cutting) was then struck with copper prod that were placed in the middle of the truck of the tree so it would not grow, the vision also mentioned that the governtment Jerulsalem would be temporarily interrupted during "seven ages". in revelation 12:6, 14 it mentions that 3 1/2 ages = 1,260 days so then "seven ages" = 2,520 days. In numbers 14:34 and ezequiel 4:6 there is another rule..

[rafy354]

.that states "each day for a year" which makes us come out with 2,520 days. the time started in october 607 b.c and ended in the year 1914 when Jesus Christ was the new heir to the throne and order was re-establised in God's government. in the same event there was a holy war in Heaven (which was over in like 2seconds b/c satan is weak compared to Jesus)and satan was cast down to earth and never allowed to return to Heaven to visit. since then we have had more disasters and wars then ever before.

[TimKilgore]

This is an interpretation of a prophesy and inserting dates. The date of the Jews returning to Jerusalem is not sure, the date of the destruction of Jerusalem is not sure, the date Christ returned is not sure. You need at least one thing positively verified in order to start a calculation, neither the start date nor the end date can be verified. We have not had more disasters than ever before, it's the exact same as ever before and there are less wars now as well just bigger wars.

[nicoleWANNAbetifa]

hu! jehovas withness aq...

[vincenz55]

whatever you say..1914 was the day the world went mad and hasnt recovered ever since. ask all the people back then and reports.

why wait? because god does things in ways we dont understand and he does things and doesnt have to answer to anyone why he does it

[KingofSentinels]

The below comment would also explain how Satan was able to talk to Jesus and try to tempt him soon after baptism.

As for Luke 10:18 which reads, "At that he said to them: 'I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven'"

That doesn't necessarily have to be rendered as literal lightning but either as in a rapid fashion or a very destructive fashion. Or both. And indeed, what happened in 1914? The bloodiest war known to mankind at the time... followed soon thereafter by WWII.

[TimKilgore]

But the scripture says "Already fallen" and that was back in Jesus' day. Secondly you're telling me Satan rebelled against Jehovah in heaven and Jehovah was cool with it until 1914. "Don't worry about it Sate (his nickname for Satan), we're cool come and go as you please. Just keep it from Michael or Jesus whatever he's going by that day because if he finds out he'll kick you out." Then in 1914 Michael/Jesus found out and threw him out? Does that make sense to you?

[KingofSentinels]

Noticed the part of "having to disregard" the entire book of Job if Satan was cast down to the earth in 1914 since Job lived about 1400 B.C.E. or so (long before that time). At that time, though, Satan wasn't cast down to earth, otherwise...how could he be conversing with Jehovah God at the start of the book of Job?

It seems Satan was free to travel to earth and back to Heaven as he pleased until permanently cast out in 1914 where the spiritual realm of Heaven was no longer an option for Satan.

[believer1965]

stupidity is every where just my thoughts

[Kllew1]

Im also familiar with the meteor that hit siberia in 1908...leveled miles . I think it was 100x the power of the hiroshima bomb . In any case JW believe Satan WAS thrown down in 1914 , not 1908 . I was raised JW .

[believer1965]

wow stupidity is around everywhere satan has blinded everyone except jehovahs people

[TimKilgore]

Is this to me or to the video I'm commenting on?

[exembodied]

Hey again, how are ya? I was just wondering if you have ever viewed any of the videos that WT Comments produces. If not you should check them out. They are produced by an active member of JW's. If interested check out my subscriptions, it's in there. Later

[TimKilgore]

V's videos are absolutely fantastic. He was the first thing I subscribed to on youtube. Alot of people thought I should try to copy his method of producing videos for my videos.

[lancejujitsu]

Wow i need to find the beginning of these vids.. = D

Russian lightening? I know a well document meteor hit and cleared millions of trees and burned rain deer in Siberia. I believe it was of the same year. though back then we did not know near as much about meteor's so lighting or of the supernatural origin would have been a better explanation.

[TimKilgore]

If it were a meteor that would explain the "heavenly body" people stated they saw heading toward the Earth. It may also be an error in translation from Russian to English. As I said basically it's an argument of association, we can associate anything to anything it doesn't necessarily mean it's proof.

[isaiah30v8]

Tim, It might help if you understood a little of my history. I posted above a video which explains why I was eventually disfellowshipped. I think you might agree that the real reason is that I asked questions just like you, and also found answers.

[TimKilgore]

Your reason for being disfellowshipped was quite amazing, seriously that would make a FANTASTIC Tough Question.

[isaiah30v8]

Tim, Some of your questions and concerns are answered in Parts 3, 4 and 5. I get the feeling you did not see them. Also doesn't seem like you did any research (google) to verify. I am convinced that what I have found is THE most significant discovery of the 20th and now the 21st century. It's only day one since posting the video. Imagine what might happen if any concensus starts to build. It could change the world. I hope.

[TimKilgore]

I did watch the third video but not the fourth and fifth before posting this. The 2nd video is your strongest video. You use argument for association and then argument from ignorance in your videos. Science doesn't know what it could be, therefore it's probably Satan. There is numerous documents online and on youtube with eyewitness accounts of the US attacking it's own buildings in 9/11 and for the Roswell crash. You might be giving too much credence to the eye witness accounts.

[TimKilgore]

I did look up some of the things on Google and wikipedia, the only thing that is known for sure about the incident is that people saw something hit the Earth. Science had not advanced at that point to research properly what had occured. The question is, are the newspaper articles reliable? If the answer isn't known can we associate anything to this, could other events be associated with Satan being casted down. Why did Jesus wait till 1914 to return when Satan was cast down in 1908?

[TimKilgore]

Lastly, it's entirely possible this could change the world. Who knows? It could also be relegated to other theories like 9/11 conspiracy theories, and Roswell alien conspiracy theories. I'll say let's hope for the more positive.