Deedat vs Douglas 1/11 Crucifixion Fact or Fiction, Ahmed Deedat Debate أحمد ديدات

[mrlogicalman1]

a religion based on one thing. without crucifiction. the religion is finished. and thers more than enuf proof that the bible is full of lies. and the so called writers of new testament ther erm 'proof' has been proven to be not written by john, luke ect thats ther witnesses, UNKNOWN authors. the NT just same story copied 4times. nothing about creation, other prophets ect so they stole from jews the TORAH cos they knew gods book wud mention, creation, other prophets but nt dint

[mrlogicalman1]

christians rape kids in church for 2000years cos its ther way of scaring, blackmailing, traumatising the kid into accepting human worship and human sacrifice. these are pagan beliefs. every single human worshipper from time of pharoahs to today . all ppl that worship another human claim ther human is god. xtians are no different. just another pagan blood, sin, rubbish

[julio14335]

Deedat indeed

[Moonchild091]

OMG this grandfather is stupid....Mother of Jesus and Magdalene were eye witnesses about Jesus dying on the cross...why would mother of Jesus lie? I mean he is so stupid!!!!

[Moonchild091]

This grandfather dont have a clue about Jesus! I bet you if he had spoken with one of the Orthodox theological monk or priest he would shut his mount by proving how Quran is fake! Orthodoxy today have miracles proving that Jesus is founder of Christianity but where is Miracles in Islam? To all Muslims if you want to see Miracle of God go to Jerusalem in Orthodox Church and you shall see the real divine and miracle..stop following this false religion of Islam

[sthnrnn]

@Moonchild091 ur question 'where is miracles in islam?' clearly proves that u have not even touched quran in ur life. go and refer quran first. then comment about islam. if u have studied aleast ur bible thoroughly u would have known that christianity is not the truth. do not abuse others before knowing the truth.

[FERNANEH]

@ungnnoah before religion all ppl where pagans nothing new there and yes before Islam was introduced the ppl from the kaaba were pegan idol worshippers .... Deedat spoke with facts and evidence so don't judge ur no one to do so if u don't like deedat then don't watch his videos plain and simple

[ugynnoah]

Deedat voice itself represent DEVIL..stil islam make him as idol.most islam will die like Deedat..look as false teaching of islam.around the wall kaabah,and then worshipped the moon.kissing the black stone..kaabah was former baal place for pagan follower..

[31MegaMike]

@ugynnoah  learn the history and about Islam 1st before you open your mouth..

[IRISHINFIDEL]

@31MegaMike why did deedat say the crucifixion did not happen,when sura 4:157 said that allah decieved the jews/christians into thinking it did?,funny how deedat mocked the christians for their beliefs and then died a frightened old man in his death bed,you should see the videos of him shrieking with terror,he obviously knew by that stage that his allah had decieved only the muslims,go watch "hamzas jinn babies" video and you will see that muhammads allah is the slave of satan

[missmisyar]

mashaAllah, he was a true sunni muslim.

[Aruolisziom]

Co ja oglądam?

[OUWATZAHLE08]

LOOK BRO THERE SOMETHING BETTER THAN LOGIC MY FREND AND THAT REAL PROOF AND WE CHRISTIANS HAVE IT WE HAV PROOF TO BACK UP WHAT WE SAY IF IT WASNT FOR OUR PROOF MY FREND I WOULD CONVERT TODAY TO ISLAM BELIVE ME BUT MUSLIM ARE TWISTING THE REAL MESSAGE OF THROUES !

[OUWATZAHLE08]

THERE WAS 513 WITNESSES SAW JESUS IN HIS GLORY WENT UP TO HEAVEN ! EVEN DEEDAT SAID JESUS MADE BLIND MAN SEE AND RISED PEOPLE FROM THE DEATH DID MOHAMED DO THAT NO YOU KNOW WHY HE WAS NORMAL HUMAIN BEAN NORMAL PEGAN HOW DARE EVEN SAY HIS THE MESSENGER OF GOD ! AND LET ME TELL YOU THEY DENY SON WHE OYU DENY THE SON YOU DENY THE FATHER WITCH MEAN THE DENY GOD HIMSELF KORAN ISLAM IS THE ANTICHRIST !

[charmooorah]

@OUWATZAHLE08 : wow many emotions .. nice.

but try thinking logically too .. don't confuse things ..

[OUWATZAHLE08]

YOUR MIXING YOUR KORAN HAVE DUBBEL STANDARDS FIRST OF AL YOU SAY KILL ALL JEWS AND CHRISTIANS BEFORE MOHAMED DIED IN HIS DEADS BED HE SAID CURSE BE UPON ALL JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AND THEN YOU SAY WE LOVE ALL CHRISTIANS IF THAT THROU WHY ARE YOU KILLING ALL CHRISTIANS IN EGYPT AND IRAK TELL ME WHO IS KILLING THE PRIESTS IN EGYPT ?

[OUWATZAHLE08]

YOU LOVE JESUS BEACOUSE YOU THINK HES COMING TO SEND YOU TO YOUR MEHDI AND THEN JESUS WILL SLAY THE DEVIL WE ALREADY KNOW THAT ITS IN THE BIBLE PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME HOW CAN AN ANGLE STRANGLE A NORMA HUMAIN BEAN ? WASNT MOAHMED STRANGLED 3 TIME SIN MOUNT OF HIRA THERE NO PROOF YOU CAN GIVE US THAT IS THROU NO PROOF GIVE ME

[raheelajk]

@OUWATZAHLE08

You can say all this in lower case. What's the point of emphasizing using caps? nobody is strangling anyone that you have shout that loud.

We Muslim believe in Jesus PBUH primarily because Holy Quran made us believe in him so. All other concepts/believes are supplemental.

[BetterBootyBeauties]

@raheelajk Jesus was crucified... would you like to debate?

[raheelajk]

@BetterBootyBeauties

Yes only if you stay decent and accept things logically.

[BetterBootyBeauties]

@raheelajk "accept things logically." I don't know what that is suppose to mean... I am accepting what the scriptures say... Logically speaking can a man and woman be born with out the act of a man or woman (Adam & Eve)... So religion itself doesn't deal with logics; it actually defies all logics... So let's debate...

[raheelajk]

@BetterBootyBeauties

When I said accept things logically, I meant... Whatever makes sense don't deny that. I have come across a lot of people when I bring them in the corner, they say "I don't believe in this".So I don't want to waste time on that. I hope you are clear what I meant.

About religion doesn't defy logic, let me tell you religion believe in miracles(like you mentioned Adam & Eve OR even birth of Jesus PBUH)+sensible set of covenants and beliefs.

So will you accept things from bible?

[BetterBootyBeauties]

@raheelajk Bring me things in the Holy Bible or Quran that states Jesus was not crucified... So we can debate now....

[raheelajk]

@BetterBootyBeauties

OK before we start our debate I want to know what you believe in. {Crucified OR NOT crucified}, {Resurrected OR NOT Resurrected}, {Ascended OR NOT Ascended}

Define yourself first.

[BetterBootyBeauties]

@raheelajk Crucified... This debate isn't really as complex as you are making it... We heard Deedat's position... So let us begin... Are you ready?

[raheelajk]

@BetterBootyBeauties

I am as ready as you can imagine. I am not making it complex, I want to avoid any U turns you might take ;-) and I said that has happened before with me. So don't get irritated by it. Tell me how he was crucified?

[raheelajk]

@BetterBootyBeauties

I am waiting for your response. Quote something showing Jesus Christ PBUH was crucified. Bear in mind that quotation shouldn't be contradicting itself anywhere in the Bible.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk Hey, ill debate u on whether Muhammad was a prophet or not. I know you muslims do not enjoy these debates because Muhammad did many wrong things. Im not christian by the way, i'm agnostic. You ready to go or not.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

Being an agnostic You need to debate on religion first before you talk about if Muhammad PBUH was prophet or not. When you don't have understanding of religion how can you debate on if Jesus Christ PBUH was a prophet OR Muhammad PBUH was a prophet.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk So u want to debate it or no. your call. And if not that topic how about if Islam is a peacefull religion, any belief can debate this. Because it is clear from the Koran and Hadith that it does promote violence.

[peaceisgood23]

@moneyfloyd23 If islam promoted violence it would not have so many followers in this day and age my friend.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

I can debate on all topics. If you want to debate on Islam is peaceful religion, yes go ahead. Quote me the verse from the Holy Quran posing violence. In this all I expect you to be impartial rather than a stubborn cult.

I am waiting for your response.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, number 24 where it says "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

All right I can answer you but first do you know the context of this Hadith? That will tell how impartial are you. Quoting Hadith and Quranic verses out of context is not a hard nut to crack neither you have to be a scholar to do that. Just google it and you will find tons.

Coming back to my question. Do you know the context when this was said?

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk No when was it actually said? But you have to understand that i just started with this one. I can also find you hadiths that show that you can actually kill people who leave islam. Now tell me the context for that. You will never find one because what kind of religion does not allow you to declare when you leave your faith. If islam is true, then truth should be far removed from falsehood and no way is killing apostates justified in any sense of the mind.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

You don't need to find things for me. I know better than you what Quran and Hadith says. But if I quote something without knowing the context then I am culpable for it. So for you before quoting anything know the background.

Now context of that Hadith is, under the state law people stopped paying Zakat(dividend/tax on their money) which they agreed to pay. So breaking the law or agreement is what triggered that situation. So if I being a hypocrite U turn then its punishable.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

I know what you will quoting for killing a man for leaving Islam but you will never quote the conditions because you only heard one part. But lets see do you know the full part?

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk sahih bukhari volume 9, book 84, number 57 says: Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

[moneyfloyd23]

@moneyfloyd23 From this hadith we see that anyone who deserts islam has also deserted his life.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

This is your interpretation of the Hadith and again if I ask you full verdict by the combination of different situations you won't know that. Let me tell you the full situation.

Blasphemy is punished if you are causing disturbance to the society by first deviating from the path you chose first and then causing unrest to the society. You will never hear that part because you will always find the part where it fulfills your objective i.e. giving wrong image of Islam.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk So, by disturbance you mean preaching something different. Please elaborate.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

Disturbance = Causing problems in society by maligning Islam OR spreading lies OR preaching untruthful facts about Islam.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

Also Books of Hadith do contain a combination of Authentic as well as weak narrations. Whenever I quote a Hadith I prefer to go with Authentic Hadith. Now you will ask what is Authentic Hadith... These are what directly narrated by companions of prophet Muhammad PBUH and doesn't contradict itself in other books. So if you choose a Hadith then be assured you know the context first and also supporting Hadiths like I did in case of Blasphemy.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk So i am guessing that ibn ishaq will be thrown out of the window then. Even though his narrations are much earlier then bukhari and muslim.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

Whether its Ibn Ishaq, Bukari OR Muslim or any other book of Hadith its authenticity is determined by the person who is quoting and not by the time it was written. If a person like Hazrat Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) is quoting a Hadith that will more authentic because she was wife of Prophet Muhammad and she received it directly from him. In contrast, if somebody says, I heard this from X person who heard from Y that Prophet Muhammad PBUH said this, thats considered weak.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk Sorry i was away for a while, anyways, since you said you can debate any topic i might bring other problems i have with islam up. ou have obviously heard about Muhammads marriage to Aisha when she was only nine years old. There are hadith records that even show she did not even hit puberty and he was married to her. Please explain how that can even begin to be morally justified. I will be waiting.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

That is a pet questions non-muslims pose and you don't have to do world upside down to make such allegations. "Hadith records talking about puberty of her". Quote the Hadith and you will get the reply easily my friend.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk Sahih Bukhari (8.151)

Narrated Aisha:

“I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me”. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

Where does it say anything about puberty? Does this hadith tell anything about marrage? Who told you playing with dolls or similar images is prohibited? My friend your knowledge of Islam is really poor.

You can come back with other Hadiths(which I already know) insinuating premature marriage but can you tell me an average age of girl's puberty? Its easy google it(just like you do to find these Hadiths to debate against Islam).

I highly recommend you to adopt concordance approach.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk You've made a bit of a mistake my friend the words in the brackets are not mine but the commentary from the islamic scholar Muhammad Muhsin Khan right after the hadith explaining the hadith. Now are you insulting my knowledge or the muslim scholar. I gave you the source buddy type it in google and you will see that its not my words. Now you've really got some explaining to do.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

I don't need to type in google I am well aware of what I am uttered. 'Muhammad Muhsin Khan' i never heard this scholar's name in my life. Playing with dolls is not forbidden through any divine revelation. So stop mixing up someone's own interpretation of things with what Islam clearly ordains and Islam is not all about these little things(m talking about playing with dolls).

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk I did bring you an authentic hadith showing that muhammad married aisha when she was nine and you still have not responded to it. Are you going to continue to dance around the issue or adress it clearly.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

Islam is complete code of conduct and well above these little things people talk about.

Now come back with something solid not interpretations. It was easy for you to say one time you are agnostic and other time Atheist but I strongly believe in what Islam adhere.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk And by the way i said i was a theist not an atheist. So i believe that there was a higher power (GOD) who created this world but i am not affiliated with any religion. Im not saying islam is not a religion from God, but how can you expect people to become muslim when their are issues raised that you and other muslims won't adress directly. Kind of like christians, muslims also tend to dance around issues that are raised.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

But you said agnostic first and then a theist(I thought that's a spelling mistake of 'atheist'). There IS a higher power NOT WAS. God is ever existing. Whatever issues you are raising I am explaining the background to you trying to remove any misconception. Now when you see Islam, don't paint everything with the same brush. Use concordance approach and see how beautiful it is. I know people from outside see some ambiguous things but you need to dig deeper to find the truth behind.

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk Sorry about tthe was i mean There is a God. I know you might not believe me but i am honestly trying to see the muslim perspective on the common issues raised. You still have not explained the issue to any degree which you should understand shows non-muslims that this must actually be a real issue with islam. I do want to hear how muslims explain Aisha's marriage but they never do.

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

I appreciate your interest in knowing real story behind the allegations. Marriage of Hazrat Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) is quoted different by different scholars. I can even quote you Hadith where his age was 14 at time she started living with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

Even if you want to count on "nine" years, medically a girl can reach puberty at 8 years. Here in America you will find cases where girl gave birth at the age of nine. Can you believe that?

[raheelajk]

@moneyfloyd23

That is so funny you coming on a video where a Muslim is debating and you telling us, "Muslims do not enjoy these debates".

HILARIOUS!

[moneyfloyd23]

@raheelajk Oh sorry i mean i am a theist but i don't believe in any organized religion. So u ready to go or no.

[shuhel88]

May Allah grant Shaykh Ahmed Deedat Jannat-ul-Firdaous.

[afterray]

wow. this is for sure an educational video...this scholar ( deedat) has an interesting argument...

peace to the muslims / christians.

[amjkhan87]

ahmed dedaat is one of the best, bold & special personality in western scholars which i've seen....... i like him the most...... MashaAllah

[OUWATZAHLE08]

and hes name is not 3isa hes name i jushua and inri in the cross that means the king of the jews jesus will return and kill every muslim countrey in the world you should be scared !

[milgovetter]

@OUWATZAHLE08 we are not scared we are the followers of the Messiah (PBUH) we love Jesus :)

[Lizzio1980]

@OUWATZAHLE08 1.The name in Hebrew is Hesuha *something spelled like that* there is no J in hebrew.

2. In arabic its Esha as you can see it looks and sounds the same... just remove the H and the u...

3. Hebrew and arabic are similar to each other

[OUWATZAHLE08]

to show some more respekt go to your koran please listen what 5adiyi mohamed wife said to mohamed she said go to the mount hira where JESUS did miracles of JESUS go read before you talk !

[awarwek]

@OUWATZAHLE08

Yes , we Muslims know that Jesus had miracles and Deedat himself said it in the vid .. ,, could you guys be any dumber ?!

[OUWATZAHLE08]

TOOK MY COMMENT of to show respekt ther eno dought in the bible my folks that bible said that mohamed was real and he was smashing the statyes that think hindus was worshepping and for this youtube user ancient jesus didnt say im am god hes son of god there we have some misquidens between us you see if you say your the onley relegion that throu to mankind how come then you muslim came before christians in 700 before christ a? answer me im a chatolic cant debatte me i always win the throues !

[ancientastronautt]

@OUWATZAHLE08 shut the fuck up cuz Christianity just got owned and give me a single reference in the bible where Jesus says he's god

[raficsulejmanovic]

@OUWATZAHLE08 I'd suggest that you gather all the evidence together and place it a website, cos it's a loaded issue. You grant your personal opinion, but we need proof irregardless from which scriptures (which some may dispute which doesn't matter) but we need ARGUMENTS.

[Sheiktajkun]

Sellam brother do you have this with german translate PLEASE :S ?

[islamophobia4dummies]

@Sheiktajkun

we do not have a specific translation into german, but youtube has an option to "TRANSLATE CAPTIONS" where the english subtitles are automatically translated to any language. Please try it and tell us if it is working well for you.

[Bastardo2124]

He was wrong about the last supper concept and timing though

[islamophobia4dummies]

@Bastardo2124

please explain...are you saying that from the Bible, the last supper where the Messiah Jesus asked the disciples to buy swords, and that 2 are enough, was not before going to Gethsemane?

[Bastardo2124]

@islamophobia4dummies Ahmed Deedat clearly mentioned that the last supper was after the crucifixion, got me going huh?!?!?replayed it a couple of times

and your question is off track, why on earth would I want to answer that by the way I am a moslem revert, I learnt both religions very well before coming to my decision

[islamophobia4dummies]

@Bastardo2124

I am still trying to understand what you think Ahmed Deedat was wrong about in terms of timing. I transcribed the subtitles (including bible references) for this debate, but I did not catch the point you are talking about.

To my knowledge, there are 2 points that Deedat brings up regarding the upper chamber:

1- the last supper when he asks for swords before going to Gethsemane

2- when he comes back to the room after the alleged crucifixion to show that he was alive and ate

[ElijahMuhammad07]

@islamophobia4dummies Ahmed Deedat argument was so weak... Would you like to debate in his place on the same topic? Jesus was not crucified...

[ElijahMuhammad07]

Respond to this video... would you like to debate this very same subject?

[Bastardo2124]

He's wrong about the last supper concept though

[icriosphinx]

Thank you!!!

[Quandary121]

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.” Jesus mentioned in the Talmud also 25 times in the The Holy Qur'an the bible tells of this man.So three books mention him yet None of you seem to think he existed

[DerKreisMeister]

It seems that this boils down to:

"Our book says something different.

And your book doesn't even say what you think it does."

How do you have *any* hope of actually resolving this issue? Shouldn't you be looking at archaeological records? I admit, there are effectively zero "eye witness" accounts of any of the miraculous events in the bible. And absolutely zero non-biblical contemporary evidence for the jesus character at all.

So how does this have any chance of being productive?

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister I think when the Bible calls him son of God and then the Quran says he's the Prophet of God, that alone is productive enough for most people it seems. Well, atleast for Islams majority Christian reverts.

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

I understand that some people believe one of those two, but why? To me they both seem equally unlikely. But, some of you feel that you have a good reason to prefer one version of the tale over the other. I've yet to hear a convincing argument from *either* side.

[islamophobia4dummies]

@DerKreisMeister

please consider that in the Bible itself, when asked by the Jews if he was the "Son of God" (ie, the physical son of God), the Messiah Jesus answers them:

(John 10:34) "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' " This is from (Psalm 82:6), so the Jews understood "son of God" to mean GOOD, or FROM GOD.

In numerous places in the Old Testament, Prophets are called "son of God", and Adam is even called "the firstborn son of God".

[DerKreisMeister]

@islamophobia4dummies

Agreed: the bible is internally inconsistent. So, why pay attention to it at all? What methodology do you have to determine which bits of the bible are *really* what god *meant* when he allowed it to be printed and translated worldwide for over a thousand years in various versions that are not only internally inconsistent, but show evidence of explicit tampering? What is left in the bible worth trusting, that we couldn't figure out without it?

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister So you don't find it more convincing that Jesus(pbuh) could be a prophet/messenger of God, like all the other Messengers that came before after him, compared to the other believe that Jesus(pbuh) is the SON of God and died for all of Humanities sins?

Are you struggling to see logic here?

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

I struggle to see, but I see no logic here.

Or, rather, I do not agree with your axioms. I do not accept the position that jesus was a prophet, or the position that he was the "son of god". What I'm asking is: why would you think that *either* one of these options is true?

Both seem crazy to me. What is crazy about one that isn't crazy about the other one? The idea that god could "have a son"? Why does god need a prophet? Or several? Neither one makes sense to me.

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister I see, so you have that understanding.

Well the way we Muslims see it is, God doesn't need a Prophet, mankind does. A Prophet is just another name for a Messenger, someone who delivers a message. God chooses one amongst Mankind to deliver his message to their people, to warn them about the Last day and to let them acknowledge of his existence. All the way from Noah(pbuh) to Muhammad(pbuh)

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister being the final messenger. Before Muhammad(pbuh), all the messengers were sent to their own people, but the final messenger was sent to mankind.

The message has been delivered so now it's just a matter of whether you accept or reject the message (as the Quran reveals). God ofcourse could come down himself and tell everyone of his existence, but that would really kill the point.

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister If He did that today shall we say, then tomorrow everyone will believe in him and change their ways. But then, what would be the point of the test of faith, the test of this life and the test of belief in the existence of a Creator? It's about purpose of life, without a purpose there would be no point in our creation.

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

I would agree: if this god thing were to reveal itself in an unambiguous way, then faith would not be a requirement for accepting it.

And that would be a good thing.

What is the point of faith? Why is it good?

Let's say that wrong belief is a bad thing (the wrong path to salvation, shall we say). We need a way to tell true beliefs from false ones.

Faith can't do it, because two faithful people can believe contradictory beliefs, as I'm sure you would agree.

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister This is where the person's own judgement comes in. He researches both faiths to the point where he's more convinced of one than the other. Choice is emphasised alot in the Holy Quran, it basically says; "you choose and in the end we'll see who's right".

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

So, what if Bobs beliefs drive him to do things that Alice finds unacceptable because of her beliefs?

What if Bob feels that drawing icky pictures of Alice's prophet is a great way to sell T-Shirts?

Do we stop Bob, or tell Alice to calm down?

What if Alice works hard to bring about social change that Bob would perceive as a radical curtailing of freedom? Should Alice be allowed to convince the majority to enact laws restricting Bob?

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

The question seems to be: is there a way that we can say who is "right" or who has which "rights".

If the answer is "have faith, and the answer will be clear", then you get contradictions. Jesus, for example, cannot both be the son of god and not the son of god.

Muhammed cannot both have ridden a flying horse and not have ridden one.

You can have faith in either one, and still not know whether your wrong.

So, how to we tell fact from fantasy, truth from fiction?

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister Well, i'd imagine "having faith" is much different in Islam than it was in Christianity. Any neutral who's studied all the religions will tell you that, in fact there's alot of reversion stories/videos which people say that they tried to study all religions before choosing Islam. And the reason is simple, compared to "the other faiths"

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister it makes the most sense, ofcourse to the believer it makes total sense, but to a non-believer who has studied it with all it's intellectual arguements would say it would make the most sense.

I mean, Muslims are probably the only faith that still claim of a "everlasting miracle" which is the Quran. For us, it is our "proof" of God, the Prophet's,

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister our purpose and our existence. With Christianity, there's alot of blind faith involved, like the trinity for example; how many Christians even understand that?

With Islam, from what I have seen (Whilst studying it) and seeing what OTHER Non-Muslim intellects have to say, there's plenty of "intellectual arguements that favour Islam" compared to other religions. For Muslims, this is enough to believe.

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

"For Muslims, this is enough to believe" is a tautology: any Muslim is someone who believes this.

I'm afraid that "intellectual arguements that favor Islam" would be predicated upon an intellectual argument that favors the existence of the god of Abraham, which would be predicated on an argument for a more abstract god.

You can't say you've got the right god, unless you can demonstrate that you've got one at all.

I think you'll find all faiths equally blind on that bit.

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister Well, I think the idea that there is a "Creator" has strong credibility. Lets forget about other religions here, most other religions have 2 or 3 gods or have sons of gods, but Islam is very straight forward in just One Creator, One God.

There's a reason why people will believe in God/Creator (whether they are Muslim or not). Everything effect has a cause, every thing you say was made by someone.

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

I can only recommend education, if you care.

The arguments you make in favor of the existence of your god are all flawed, in as much as they're arguments at all. Mostly, they seem to be "rants".

Please, check out talk origins dot org if you actually care about whether of the arguments you just gave me for a creator are valid. Don't trust me: examine the arguments in detail, and listen to the criticisms.

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister There isn't a single thing you can ponit to and say "that came by itself out of nothing". Nothing in reality exists that literally came out of nothing.

So two major problems arise;

1. If something can't come from nothing, then how did the universe form.

2. In reality, nothing is infinite. There is no such thing, so the universe must've had a beginning and an end.

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister

3. Who Created the Universe? When you take into considerations the 4 elements that came to be to allow us to have planets and suns, when you really study into it all, you think; surely whatever caused this had to have some intelligence?

These are arguements that people use all the time, it's not always a "u can't prove god so your arguement is invalid" because the question would be asked "explain this and that" and their

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister response ends up being "science isn't that advanced yet". You sort of get a sense of how this arguement regarding the existence of God is, I mean if it was not strong, religion wouldn't be such a strong factor today. In fact, Islam wouldn't be growing so fast and vast, statistically its the fastest growing religion in the world, in the western world it's the fastest growing through conversions alone. People

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister aren't stupid, 1.6 billion and growing, then there's the Christians and Jews and other faiths who "believe in a God or Gods".

It really is a, pick your side, you can't prove to me this and I can't prove to you this either. And until one side is definitly clear, there will be a division. Regarding Islam and faith, the Quran says;

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister

"And they say, 'Why are not signs sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, 'Indeed, the signs are with Allah, and I am but a clear warner.' But it is sufficient for them that We have sent down to you the Book [i.e., Quran] which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in that is mercy and a reminder to people who believe."(Surah 29:50-51)

Any neutral, who studies Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other religion, will find that (for them)

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister the most logical seeming (regardless of whether they agree or not), but the most logical "of the religions" would be Islam. And you have to think using common sense, all those people that are becoming Muslim, are they all stupid or do have a good reason. And keep in mind, it's not your christian missionaries converting uneducated tribes,

[Perseveranze]

@DerKreisMeister its the western countries, doctors, lawyers educated people who revert (we call it reverting since we believe everyone is born innocent/sinless/ Muslim).

[DerKreisMeister]

@Perseveranze

Just because someone is educated or proficient in one field, does not make them proficient in another.

The head of the Human Genome Project is a staunch Catholic. I trust his science, but I don't accept his metaphysics.