The cost to build the athletes' living area for the London Olympics alone is £1.1 billion how on earth does this half-wit expect to raise enough money to complete his technological advanced model town through donations? Don't waste your money on this quack, give it to a charity that actually does something useful with it.
@MsBeiser Like most people who encounter Fresco for the first time, you're hostile. Hopefully you too like the rest of them will realize how rash and uninformed your assumptions are. Then admit to yourself that Fresco has something novel to offer us.
@jacquefresco I've not just encountered him for the first time. And I notice you have not said a single thing about this donation nonsense. It is a at best a joke. He has nothing 'novel' to offer us, other than utter bewilderment that anyone could take this fool seriously.
@MsBeiser What I meant to say, was one who hasn't thoroughly examined all of Fresco's views. A few clips on the internet is insufficient, unless your case is otherwise. The donations are to make a film. Thousands of filmmakers are doing this all across the world. Quit demonizing Fresco for utilizing a common strategy.
@MsBeiser Regarding what Fresco has offered us. Fresco has offered us novelty in the areas of futurism, utopian thinking, and social theory. In this world, where every book is judged by its cover or back cover summary, it is easy and convenient to dismiss concepts that bare the slightest resemblance to something stigmatized or discredited without closer inspection. Once you understand the sumtotal of Fresco's ideas you realize he has overcome where many others have fallen short. Yes...
@MsBeiser ...Yes, Fresco is disorganized in his presentation of ideas. He is not systematic nor is he academic. In fact, he exemplifies philosophers of the past, many of which were neither systematic, organized, nor academic. What you see is the result of an iconoclastic life that has afforded him rare insights and a genuine vision, a genuineness seldom seen in modern times. Seldom due to the regimented academic process that produces sophists, philodoxers, and scholasticists...
@MsBeiser ...scholasticists that masquerade as scholars. Fresco is not the product of today's modalities. He must be understood on the basis of his own generation - his background - the factors that produced him. After such a concession is made, you see that he does offer quite interesting insights when understood in his terms and from the perspective of his time.
@MsBeiser As Jack Catran once said, "To solve the riddle of Jacque Fresco was a thorn and a challenge, for he could be both a dreamer and a realist, stubborn to the point of obstinacy and suddenly generously tolerant. And his naivete was as frightening as his genius was praiseworthy."
"The management of human affairs, not politics"? Fresco doesn't understand the meaning of the word Politics which is simply 'of or relating to citizens' i.e. the management of human affairs and resources. Idiot.
@jacquefresco That would still be politics though, given the above definition (from the OED), surely? The point is Fresco doesn't understand the meaning of basic terms therefore why the hell should anyone listen to him?
@MsBeiser Technically, Sociocyberneering is a political operation. However, the modern connotation, especially of the popular sense, carries too much baggage. Too many notions of people making decisions, voting, & electing. Fresco wants to get away from those connotations and he condemns the entire notion of politics to do so, even though his own system is a form of politics, technically. But it might as well not be, beings the nature of it is so vastly different than any prior method.
@ShittyAccount You cannot have an economy without property, money, trade, law, etc. Civilization is based on such rules of human interaction. Economics is based in the reality of the physical world and the nature of man.
Producers simply will not voluntarily surrender the fruit of their labor to non-producers. People despise slavery. You can only implement such a global communist scheme by force. And If you did manage to set it up, it would fail immediately because it denies economics.
@MillionthUsername Basically you are saying humanity can't live without money. That's false. Money is another form of slavery, it keeps everybody on the line. Money is the source of most humanity problems. It creates war, scarcity, hunger... There is no "nature of man", only human behaviour. LOL You are calling The Venus Project a "communist scheme by force". Troll harder. This is not a political movement. Forget politics and money. They don't exist in TVP.
@ShittyAccount You can live without money; you just can't have a global economy without it. Money is not "a form of slavery." Money is something of value which people use to exchange goods & services. Slavery is when someone is coerced.
"There is no 'nature of man'."
Really? So you can breathe methane instead of oxygen?
I did not call VP a "communist scheme by force." Read what I wrote.
"They don't exist in VP."
A completely meaningless statement. Fresco certainly has, uses, and wants $
@MillionthUsername You are just relating economy with money. "Global economy" from today is based on monetary system which leads to destruction of environment and waste of finite resources with the only goal of making profit. That's not a real economy. I know what money means in this society but money is simply a human invention which creates 90% of problems in our society, but once again "it doesn't matter" the goal is profit. We are enslaved by money. I was talking about "human nature"
@MillionthUsername Fresco like everyone uses and wants money in order to buy food in order to survive in this society. Until The Venus Project is not a reality (and probably won't be if in meanwhile we destroy ourselves) every person will need money. MONEY = cause of environmental and social problems. Just to make it clear: I understand what you mean, I am not retarted but we have different points of view.
@ShittyAccount you are not "retarted'. Obviously. Of course in the present system we all need and use money. He is offering another alternative without money. Which, for the good of the species in the long term, makes a lot of sense. If we keep going the way we are the pursuit of money and profit will be the demise of the human race.
UNFORTUNATELY any time you talk about "global government", the useful idiots ("patriot" movements) break out in hives and throw a fit.
It NEVER seems to occur to them (and similar reactionaries) that the "Globalism" of the contemporary corporatocracy/banksters/old-elites is not the only notion of "globalism" to be had!
It is like saying that only totalitarian dictatorships exist amongst nation states!
These dummies think there is anything "new" about the "NWO." Thus, they have no solutions.
again, Orgon, I think we are on the same page in many ways and few would objectively disagree with ideas like the VP- in principle
My concern is real life feasibility and action. Man has tried a few times many of the ideals you just wrote. Trusting a single godmind figure, man or machine, to disseminate resources sounds dangerous. 'Transparency' will definitely help with preventing corruption, but this is a relative term without means to ensure it. Be careful
@OrgonVpH7 again, I like how it sounds and it's difficult for anyone to disagree with it's premise
My main concern is corruption. What fail-safes to ensure equal dissemination of resources. Who controls, and by what process. Does this involve "re-education", and if so by what reason?
This is a major detail
No government sounds nice, but what specifically will take it's place? If anyone is to take the VP seriously for real life implementation these questions need more than a beautiful idea
@OrgonVpH7 U.N is the most crpaitalist, and free-market enterprise related corruption. But dont forget the NATO and EU, and even FN are all controlled by the U.S goverment who getsp aid of by big corporations for self-investment and earth-resources harvesting. R
this was the thing about communism.. if someone figures out a patch of land is more usefull how do you stop them hoarding it..
someone might own a simple house and 4 gens later the area is built up & it goes up in price.. (just thinking about the HUGE price discrepancy between same physical room in backwater vs capital city)
communist answer is authority (organized mob) kicks them out because no ones allowed better house.. regulations on room sizes etc
Recognizing symbiosis in regard to computers is great, but why not see that recognizing it in regard to humankind is of utmost importance, b/c we're affecting every aspect of this planet.
National-Socialism would flood earth with aryans. Soviets/Chinese declared science supreme.. & still damaged enviro;& of course religious types follow gods instruction to "go forth and multiply".
all viruses.
VP can only be different if it has population control - and that will be voluntary? education? everyone interprets same info differently..
capitalism does not over-produce humans, it just delivers what people want.
I never said capitalism advocates over production.....
There is NO Need to depopulate b/c there are enough resources, however in a rbe population and having responsible reproduction will be addressed in education, which will be a higher education than has ever been offered to us under capitalism. This ed will be for EVERYONE.
[1] I despise credit-boom ("never a borrower or lender be")
[2] i despise deep heirachy (and masses empowering a leader)
[3]i describe my utopia as "eco-capitalist". i explain capitalism to friends-*private land ownership* - you have parents land, then breed in balance with it, manipulate it to create improve your q.of.life
[more
problem is most people conned into breeding by banker lending landless parent.
please investigate phenomenon of *consciousness* nature created you to be happy? you believe in "god" ? why you think you are REAL? how much energy burned to sustain your brain? green/sustainable living = solar power. so why allow animals as parasites on plants? my hypothesis: 'nature' shows 'ascent of complexity'. BUT basic physics (entropy, thermodynamics) imples ORDER only comes from DESTRUCTION OF ORDER ELSEWHERE. so: *natures' highest ordered object always experiences scarcity*
The very fact that you use the words 'always' is unscientific.
Embrace a better world. Stop finding any excuse not to research the vp extensively. It's sound and logical....applying the scientific method to our economic and social system.
give different people same info, they intpret it differently .. because each individual was a different experiment by nature (different enviroment, different history)
i am using analogy of software/hardware :)
once algorithm figured 'useful' it is built into hardware.
human thought = software.
human instrinct = hardware.
nature only needs brains if there is *disagreement*
in VP utopia, does everyone agree? i hypothesise Nature will not tolerate that & declare human=waste of energy
some educate people think "replicating genes produced me so i must replicate genes". or even "my genes the best so i muts replicate maximally and sweep asside other genes" and also "upward population pressure is driver for new technology"
you can't educate people out of that. conflict is inevitable so long as humans continue :(
Yes you can. Someone taught you that mindset in regard to people and reproduction and you can certainly dismiss the info with newer, sound info. case and point.
First of all in a RBE we wouldn't need oil b/c we would utilize a more efficient energy for obtaining food in regard to machinery. Secondly, you should look into hydroponics, geothermal energy, meglav, tidal wave energy, etc. These energies could have and will be harnessed once Capitalism and profit are out of the picture, making way for EFFICIENCY instead of profit.
I don't think you understand communism: it's monetary based you know. The only difference in communism is the amount of regulation by the govt. The govt controls the money, not the people. Let's be clear on that.
Billionaires don't make money off of efficiency. Capitalism is designed around mass consumption of resources and planned obselesance so that things break down in a timely manner so as to make more profit.
[1] communism starts with VP ideal. soviets intended to eliminate money (they estimated it would take many decades) they used to count labour-exchange. give people choice & they do no work :)
westerners now associate the word with Authoritarian/Dictatorship, hence VP tries very hard to pretend it isn't communism when it is.
take away money and resources are rationed/redistributed by secret-police.
VP is not Communism because people in VP do not "work". Nobody wants to do work if the job is arbitrary and uninteresting, that's where technology comes in and help us do it all while we have more free time to devote to hobbies, education, and passions. Communism failed because it did not have technology on its side, and it did not educate people to have the right incentives and values.
Great job starting with a name calling. You expect me to take you seriously after that? The Green Revolution was a pathetic attempt at trying to absolve hunger and deprivation by physically inventing better sources of food for a mentally unstable and uneducated society which does not know how to fully utilize such resources. Btw, I said technology and right incentives and values (also education), not technology alone. Stop answering to comments when you don't even finish reading my sentences.
Funny use of the word "work" there. When I refer to work, I mean doing some form of arbitrary, repetitive form of physical or mental labor which requires minimal thought. Venus project already stated that it needs to happen on a global scale, with the people. Why would people want to enslave us in the Venus Project? Slaves are used to do things for us that we don't like to do. If people are provided living materials, and are not forced to do anything they don't like to do, why do we need slaves?
Thanks for apologizing. So you're worried about over-population creating scarcity of solar energy? Well, a lot of energy and power are wasted because our technologies are highly inefficient, and sap a lot of energy. Also a lot of units of technology are produced because we don't like to share. That also wastes energy in the production process. When we create efficient technology and learn to share, we'll have a lot more energy left over.
" >>"Our technologies are extremely inefficient. "
then stop using them"
ts not that simple to just let go of technology, and technological process is ongoing. I say they're inefficient because they have room for improvement, and they're made to be ineffective so energy companies can make a buck. By the way I'd suggest you look over your comments before making them. Your arguments go all over the place and makes little sense.
Btw Global dimming has nothing to do with solar panels.
I should remind you that vapor trails have a regional effect, not a global one. A scientist researching the topic stated this in his interview. It is an interesting find, but yet to be backed up by additional research. Solar panels still has nothing to do with dimming or warming. If anything, its efficiency in heat absorption is reduced via dimming, and global warming is reduced via solar power rather than fuel and natural gas. It doesn't cause dimming or warming.
true i bring up the trails since i hypothesise capturing more heat (whatever means) will still impact nature. white reflects & cools earth, black absorbs & heats earth :)
On subject of education, what do we do about the people who DENY global warming even exists :)
Well I believe that global warming exists, but not to the degree that we extrapolate it to be. Also, there's the subject of "who to believe". I've read documents supporting both sides of the argument, and frankly, there's more climatologists and geologists denying global warming than supporting, despite popular beliefs. Plus I've looked at charts "proving" global warming. They were minuscule changes in temperature followed by extremely generous extrapolations. I don't know what to say.
r.e. GW i am 50%-70% convinced, but 100% convinced we do serious damage *somewhere*; also 100% convinced about peak-oil, and only 10-20%(?) convinced that we'll get something like fusion to maintain lifestyle.
I think we're all find ourselves living in circumstances more like China or areas ruled by local warlords middle-ages style. if fiat ends cocaine&ammo would probably be new currencies.
not sure which way the US will go, armed populace can stay free? or would breakup be more brutal?
Don't know man, all I know is its gunna be a baaaaad future. That's why I'm sticking with VP, its a good alternative to military induced nightmare I call "the near future".
sure- because the technology made you, not the other way round :) i suspect you can't survive without it.
>>"and they're made to be ineffective so energy companies can make a buck"
this is overly conspiratorial :) samsung LEDTV selling point is reduced power consumption. Similarly laptops are sold with battery-life.. i.e. reduced power
people have option of bicycle transport, but they choose car
How is that overly conspiratorial? Samsung LED TV and the likes are quite expensive compared to the average, power sucking television. If a family cannot afford energy efficient television, what can they do? Only the rich can afford to "save energy" and they do it out of their own pocket. I agree that technology is available to us, but the majority of humans do not have the buying power to buy it. They can only stick with the less efficient, power sucking models, so companies make more of these.
you're probably right to observe energy companies have the most "power" by far.
but every other stage of the chain of engineering is at liberty to create energy-saving devices / lifestyles .. to reduce money they give to the energy company :) (&increase their own profit of course)
I think the whole distribution side of businesses is basically about reducing energy required to get from producer to consumer.. e.g. economies of scale in large shipments
Yes it would seem fair to learn about how the system works and use it to your advantage, but what about those that did not have the opportunity or the environment to learn about it? Its probably naive to you, that VP to want to create a society where there's the least amount of suffering, but its an honorable goal that I advocate for. Btw yes you're right, billionaires are buying stuff up like crazy while dollar collapsed.
i do agree minimizing suffering is a good goal. I just dont think whole world would agree details.
maybe internet helps people educate themselves.. .. then again we've always had books.
Peeps who can educate themselves & avoid paying will have an advantage.(UK further edu=SCAM today)
the power of software.. was wondering myself how many engineering jobs can be reduced to data & done by anyone anywhere.. e.g. see "folding at home". Could we eventually see "open-source drugs" developped ?
Yes, I think the internet will be VP's saving grace. There's this thing in Indian called "Hole in the wall computers". This program attracted sooo many Indian slum children to the computers, and they taught themselves English in a matter of months. Books are kinda a thing of the past now, since we got the internet, which helps us transfer information at a much faster rate.
i sort of class the internet as a new form of life, using individual humans as networked processors. (just as individual blobby amoeboid brain cells make our intelligence). the matrix is a v.good analogy
my fear is post peak oil we wont have land to support it. someone will want the solar panel area for food. thats why i'm so keen on population control. land for human subsistence vs land for human+solar-panels to drive fast internet connection & powerful 3d hardware ..
There are many alternatives to where we can grow food, and many alternatives to where we can put solar panels. It doesn't have to be a flat area, or on the ground for that matter. The ancient Chinese method of mountain agriculture is a good example, not to mention hydroponics - a recent discovery.
When people are given a higher quality of life, they'll start having less children. Just look at Europe.
... & in china they've already got ruthless authority willing to do whatever it takes to use every scrap of land they have as efficiently as possible to compete with west ... I dont buy this argument that money creates false scarcity at all.
Well, I guess you could say VP is naive to try to create a world where there's the least amount of suffering, but its an honorable end goal that I would advocate for. And yes I agree, if companies dig up other resources, they'll just use it for control, that's why technology and the future will always be used to oppress people, which is why people refuse to change.
"Funny use of the word "work" there. When I refer to work, I mean doing some form of arbitrary, repetitive form of physical or mental labor which requires minimal thought."
great. if you hate your life, dont have kids
easy
i'm having zero, thanks
or what?-you think Darwin says you must reproduce?
Dude, I don't see how you got "I hate my life" from that description of "work". Yes children take up a lot of resources and time for one (or two) individual(s) to raise them. I don't plan on having kids, I'd rather adopt one instead. Also, I'd suggest that you try to stay on topic and not stray from the point being made. It makes discussion annoying and tedious (e.g. how did you go from labor work to Darwin?) I think that's why "blaziermissy" stopped replying to your comments.
If all resources are "common heritage" (communism), does that mean you are not allowed [a] private property (a personal living space) [b] any private possesions
if you take some lovely free resources in this la la land and then construct something with them, is the constructed object still common heritage that anyone else can take at any time.. or being "unique" has it suddenly become a SCARCE object.
maybe only prefab constructions are allowed ? no more innovation ?
First of all, common heritage does NOT equal communism. That's what we've been taught, and it's illogical.
Technology will be at the forefront to enhance and make our lives better, which is what technology should have been all along, not something to sell to those who can afford it.
go to the site and read. If you research it, you'll see that it's common sense to move toward this.
most people who dont want to pay for OS use pirate copy.. keeping windows ubiquitous.. keeping bill gates in power. reason - they dont want to do the extra community work of building momentum for linux. they want the economies of scale that windows provides.
if people can't manage free software, it is highly unlikely that they can manage free resources.
First of all I don't have extensive computer knowledge but I'm learning. Secondly, I use what I already have, and thirdly your black and white thinking is indicative of your "any old excuse" to discount a logical and sound society.
Btw, Bill Gates is being approached to help advocate this society. If people can't manage to think beyond their judgement it's highly unlikely they can manage to advocate a resource based society.
I disagree. Capitalism, by it's very design, is flawed. Capitalism IS mass consumption of resources and those who have the advantage consume the most, while others starve. It pits us against each other, competing for jobs just to meet our primary needs. It's primitive and creates a social hierarch and breeds mental neurosis.
Look at our world. It's sick. Why should some families live in gluttonous opulence while others starve to death? Even the apathy to the plight of others is sick.
You've been TAUGHT to think we're over populated by this established system. Don't you see that? Without capitalistic waste and hording and inneficiency, there is an abundance of resources and tech advances (without profit) will create more abundance.
Capitalism's enemy is abundance, b/c scarcity makes prices go up. Am I making sense to you now?
you are blaming all worlds problems on *capitalist system* and *profit*
scarcity is caused pure and simple by people having too many babies. exponential growth function.
from one gen to next,
pop goes up 3x (whatever), tech improves 2x, and the difference is all the misery.
hence for utopia, you must control pop. tech improves, then some rationing process (central command, mob-rule,or money) dictates allowable number of babies.
thats why as i explained, when there's a communist (or national socialist) revolution, they dont suddenly find abundance. they have choice of external war or internal mass murder.
it is simple mathematics. population dynamics. conservation of energy.
entropy.
nature does not spontaneously produce order. life is temporary order caused by disorder in burned fuel / plants eaten whatever.. net effect of life is actually increased disorder in nature. this is physics.
We have the potential to be "sound stewards" of this planet and we hold the paintbrush to evolution. We have the capacity and knowledge to guide ourselves logically in creating an efficient, sustainable life on this planet for all. We're not doing it. It's time to start.
100% agree that credit boom is a bad. stable commodity-backed currency would help sustainability.
market is like a giant supercomputer, credit like speed/cocaine.
personally I would like to see stable human population with "evolution"/ascent of complexity continuing through machines. got to hope its' a symbiosis :)
would like to see flatter heirachy / more personal independance. how to acheive? very difficult to compete with "economies of scale" of large corps :(
I just simply don't understand why you refuse to see that Capitalism by its very nature will never be sound. It's flawed, unsound and doesn't benefit ALL and never will.
All these systems have been tried, capitalism = least bad.
I suspect people who object to Capitalism really object to excessive power/resource in hands of too few (I do!) but you must realise this is inevitable consequence of worlds size&complexity.
the bigger the collective, the bigger the chance for middleman to exploit.
I urge you to study windows v linux for analogy.
eliminating gates' power comes at cost of individual responsibility (i.e. work filtering/configuring/more bugs)
least bad? lol. Anytime profit trumps human concern, pollutes the water and air and thwarts tech and med technology, all the while driving greedy corporations to enslave and manipulate and control and even STARVE other countries....
You DON'T have a system that works.
Am I clear? It's not difficult to see this, is it?
Are you so greedy and indoctrinated yourself that you can't see this? Be honest with yourself.
No, that's completely incorrect. Profit will trump human concern, because that is how the system will preserve itself. If a company puts humans first, then profit, it won't survive for very long. The system is inherently flawed. There is NO evidence that greed keeps people alive, you believe in it because its what you were brought up to believe. Greed is NOT human nature, it is human behavior. The fear of scarcity is human nature, and that is perpetuated by society. Get rid of it, no greed.
you cant have a profitless system. people need to work for some kind of profit and if they can get a little bit more by giving someone a little bit less, they will.
oh come on, greed is human nature. you can even see it in kids that want to have most of the colourfull pencils when playing with other kids at age 7. its natural for them.
lmao, at age 7, many children can be taught to speak four languages. By that time, they would already be indoctrinated. Also, you fail to look at Feral children, those kids who were left alone by humans, and behaved and inherited the value system of those common animals, e.g. Wolves, or Monkeys. And profit is just an angle. I think profit should be about resource stability and human betterment. In a monetary system, it is a number in a terminal. But go on...
Well, truthfully, I didn't get that from a scientific journal, but I did apply the logic known about intellectual capacity and observed cases to this thought process.
Another point Jacque addresses, and I will also individually address, is about greed NOT as human nature, but as a human PROPENSITY that is only triggered under certain conditions. Jacque advocates, in a way, that every person be given the best materials, and best resources possible, so there is no need for "more colorful pencils". Can't you see that that kind of greed is not inbred, but triggered by the way the system is structured?
Again, there is no human nature, only human behavior. Behavior is shaped by the environment. Change the environment, change the behavior. A social and econ.system like the Venus project advocates would deter greed. There'd be no reason for the behavior in such a society. If you don't believe me, there are thousands of experiments in the behavioral science category that you're welcome to replicate. Don't worry, you can learn to curtail your greed:)
while true...on the surface, it is not simple at all to do. human nature will find a way to surface sooner or later. humans are not robots to follow reasonable rules ALL the time. sometimes they want to be unreasonable and not exclusively cerebral beings like jack. is there police in his perfect state? with what are they "paid"? do they have guns?
There won't be a "reason" for the majority of crimes. There will be some crime, but reduced tremendously. Mental neurosis or addictive behavior patterns would persist, but could be addressed with cognitive restructuring therapy and new tech. In other words, abb behavior won't go unadressedas it has in our system now; the new system will actually work on the "root" causes and find solutions.
but how will they be compensated for their 8 hours of work? doctors, policemen, maintenece personell working for nothing? for the good of the community, free food and power?
No, I'm supposed to do all of the research and post it here on mulltiple post with charachter limitations. Is that what you'd like? Do you have something against learning or researching something?
The higher standards of living are for ALL people. Never before has the scientific method been applied to an economic or social system. It's sound. Read about it if you're interested...if not, that's your choice.
This project is NOT an elitist sponsored project. There's a difference. This project has to be advocated by the people...enough people across the globe and within different countries...for it to work.
some people will be at the top positions, cause lets face it, you cant educate everyone and make him a responsible citizen (no, not even in "dome cities")
these people will get drunk with power, corrupt, foregeting the "ideals"
why? cause its human nature. you cant make people into angels cause then they wouldnt be human anymore.
Seriously...there will be no social hierarchy...it won't be about competition...competitive behavior. There will be no leader, only rotating delegates...because any power position leads to corruption.
Humans have lived 99% of our existance in egalitarianism...upstartism was not permitted in the groups and it worked well. With agriculture came social hierarchy and thus, poverty.
NO, it's not...lol. Again, there is no human nature, just behavior. Our environment has aggrandized competition. No, we're not mindless drones...all the more reason we deserve to live in a society like this. There will be NO REASON for upstartism...b/c people will have what they need or want...latest technology...travel...food..housing..etc. The behavior we've learned in this environment can be UNlearned.
You can't ask for 30 cell phones or 50 stereos etc., In other words, within reason. That's the whole point of a resource based society. There will be abundance, but efficiency and intelligent management is taught. This way, ALL people live great. Do you see the premise of where the ideology is coming from?
ah! within reason you say? ok so if i want to drink beer and have sex with willing girls all day without lifting a finger to help the community, i can?
cause thats reasonable according to me, is it not according to you?
You can do that if you'd like, but within the new system I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't do that all day long.
You'd have new incentives, more access to things...no limitations as we all have now due to our purchasing power.
Continual, accessive behaviors like drinking all day or having sex all day are behaviors expected within this environment we live in now...sort of rebelling against a confining, limiting system. You'd be happier in the new system...
lol dont lie. you know i couldnt lazy around and have fun all day. that would lead to a snowballing effect and if everyone was doing it who would tend to the machines and produce?
"lazying around and drinking beer" would be made illegal by the council in no time. and you know it.
Seriously, you want do that behavior all of the time, b/c you're going to "want" to contribute to society in some way. Btw, eventually 90% of jobs would be phased out....so your contrib. to society would be helping others who may need help, higher ed, etc, or invention, art, etc., etc. There are many ways to contribute...think about it..
are you really this naive? do you really believe every person is an angel? no rotten apples? come on...a little realism please.
-90% of jobs would be phased out-
more wishfull thinking. i can make a very very very long list of proffesions that would still be needed. why? cause we simply dont have the technology yet.
Education and technology will be at the forefront. All will be afforde and education (if preferred) like none we've ever had, b/c there won't be limitations on knowledge do to politics (even ivy league schools don't give adequate education)
i repeat. you cant educate everyone, cause not everyone is interested in education.
especially in a "free" society like jacks.
and if you have some educated, some not...what do you have but a 2 class system? inequality once again, a simplified todays society with all its faults brewing.
You have to afford a basic education, otherwise the person couldn't function within the society, but the basic ed will be standards such that we've never seen...no limits. We live under an ed system now that produces people that are just smart enough to do a job and dumb enough to accept their slave position, so to speak.
There will be no 2 class system. NO social hierarchy...none...ever. Basic education will be very high standards...those who desire to pursue more will do so. The higher the ed, the better off all will be, b/c people will be contributing to the society..
Nobody's going to "force" you to get an educ., you'll want it...
the social hierarchy you speak of is learned in this environment. Social class is a human construct. We made it up. It's a mental/ego ignorant concept. Sure, more educ. people will congreg with the like, but there will be no reinforcement for doing so like it is in this environment.
Sure, some people will have anxieties or reluctant to engage in educ., but to live in a world without laws or police, and tech is high and advanced you must have educ to truly benefit and adapt. Also, so that the envir and greater whole runs smoothly. You are going in equal, so why would you want to jeopardize that and handicap yourself? Behavior will be impt. and root causes of behavior will be addressed.
my lang. come from my studies. Identifying root causes of our behavior within an environment is "crucial" to providing answers to a better environment. It's the end goal. Sorry if you don't like the language. How's this: We gotta get to the bottom of that jacked up behavior.
the bottom of our jacked up behaviour is our nature. our human nature.
and that cant be "addressed".
why? cause gene manipulation is at an infant stage. if you cant go to the core (and we cant) you can only achieve superficial & temporary "improvements" to humans.
omg, you're hung up on that, aren't you? Behavior is partially genetically determined, but it is the environment/culture/ that shapes and produces our behavior.
Ex: you can have the genetic propensity for depression, but until some stressor like a death of a loved one or some other life struggling event, the depression will not occur spontaneously.
indeed the environment is very important. is it a more deciding factor than genetics? answer, no.
ex. you cant make some people "saints" by surrounding them with the ideal conditions. some people are naturally born antisocial. or very smart. or very dumb. or hopeless dreamers.
The cost to build the athletes' living area for the London Olympics alone is £1.1 billion how on earth does this half-wit expect to raise enough money to complete his technological advanced model town through donations? Don't waste your money on this quack, give it to a charity that actually does something useful with it.
MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser Like most people who encounter Fresco for the first time, you're hostile. Hopefully you too like the rest of them will realize how rash and uninformed your assumptions are. Then admit to yourself that Fresco has something novel to offer us.
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@jacquefresco I've not just encountered him for the first time. And I notice you have not said a single thing about this donation nonsense. It is a at best a joke. He has nothing 'novel' to offer us, other than utter bewilderment that anyone could take this fool seriously.
MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser What I meant to say, was one who hasn't thoroughly examined all of Fresco's views. A few clips on the internet is insufficient, unless your case is otherwise. The donations are to make a film. Thousands of filmmakers are doing this all across the world. Quit demonizing Fresco for utilizing a common strategy.
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser Regarding what Fresco has offered us. Fresco has offered us novelty in the areas of futurism, utopian thinking, and social theory. In this world, where every book is judged by its cover or back cover summary, it is easy and convenient to dismiss concepts that bare the slightest resemblance to something stigmatized or discredited without closer inspection. Once you understand the sumtotal of Fresco's ideas you realize he has overcome where many others have fallen short. Yes...
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser ...Yes, Fresco is disorganized in his presentation of ideas. He is not systematic nor is he academic. In fact, he exemplifies philosophers of the past, many of which were neither systematic, organized, nor academic. What you see is the result of an iconoclastic life that has afforded him rare insights and a genuine vision, a genuineness seldom seen in modern times. Seldom due to the regimented academic process that produces sophists, philodoxers, and scholasticists...
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser ...scholasticists that masquerade as scholars. Fresco is not the product of today's modalities. He must be understood on the basis of his own generation - his background - the factors that produced him. After such a concession is made, you see that he does offer quite interesting insights when understood in his terms and from the perspective of his time.
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser As Jack Catran once said, "To solve the riddle of Jacque Fresco was a thorn and a challenge, for he could be both a dreamer and a realist, stubborn to the point of obstinacy and suddenly generously tolerant. And his naivete was as frightening as his genius was praiseworthy."
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@jacquefresco I do not think mine is "supreme". I'm merely referencing the OED
MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
@jacquefresco You seem to be confusing a particular way of doing politics with Politics as such. This is lazy thinking.
MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser No, he rejects politics as such, though he does attack particular ways of doing politics for the sake of giving examples.
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
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MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
"The management of human affairs, not politics"? Fresco doesn't understand the meaning of the word Politics which is simply 'of or relating to citizens' i.e. the management of human affairs and resources. Idiot.
MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser In Fresco's system, Politics is substituted with Sociocyberneering.
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@jacquefresco That would still be politics though, given the above definition (from the OED), surely? The point is Fresco doesn't understand the meaning of basic terms therefore why the hell should anyone listen to him?
MsBeiser 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser Technically, Sociocyberneering is a political operation. However, the modern connotation, especially of the popular sense, carries too much baggage. Too many notions of people making decisions, voting, & electing. Fresco wants to get away from those connotations and he condemns the entire notion of politics to do so, even though his own system is a form of politics, technically. But it might as well not be, beings the nature of it is so vastly different than any prior method.
jacquefresco 3 weeks ago
@MsBeiser Stop trolling.
IAM18YEARSOLDANDOVER 3 days ago
How come you never say who makes the decisions in your communist paradise?
MillionthUsername 9 months ago
@MillionthUsername The Venus Project is not communism. It does not use money, army, prisons, politicians...
ShittyAccount 9 months ago 5
@ShittyAccount Yeah, I know. There are no rules and no one makes any decisions about anything. It's just a state of bliss.
MillionthUsername 9 months ago
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ShittyAccount 9 months ago
@MillionthUsername You think such world is not possible because you are used to the current society... We (humanity) are not civilized yet.
ShittyAccount 9 months ago
@ShittyAccount You cannot have an economy without property, money, trade, law, etc. Civilization is based on such rules of human interaction. Economics is based in the reality of the physical world and the nature of man.
Producers simply will not voluntarily surrender the fruit of their labor to non-producers. People despise slavery. You can only implement such a global communist scheme by force. And If you did manage to set it up, it would fail immediately because it denies economics.
MillionthUsername 9 months ago
@MillionthUsername Basically you are saying humanity can't live without money. That's false. Money is another form of slavery, it keeps everybody on the line. Money is the source of most humanity problems. It creates war, scarcity, hunger... There is no "nature of man", only human behaviour. LOL You are calling The Venus Project a "communist scheme by force". Troll harder. This is not a political movement. Forget politics and money. They don't exist in TVP.
ShittyAccount 9 months ago
@ShittyAccount You can live without money; you just can't have a global economy without it. Money is not "a form of slavery." Money is something of value which people use to exchange goods & services. Slavery is when someone is coerced.
"There is no 'nature of man'."
Really? So you can breathe methane instead of oxygen?
I did not call VP a "communist scheme by force." Read what I wrote.
"They don't exist in VP."
A completely meaningless statement. Fresco certainly has, uses, and wants $
MillionthUsername 9 months ago
@MillionthUsername You are just relating economy with money. "Global economy" from today is based on monetary system which leads to destruction of environment and waste of finite resources with the only goal of making profit. That's not a real economy. I know what money means in this society but money is simply a human invention which creates 90% of problems in our society, but once again "it doesn't matter" the goal is profit. We are enslaved by money. I was talking about "human nature"
ShittyAccount 9 months ago
@MillionthUsername Fresco like everyone uses and wants money in order to buy food in order to survive in this society. Until The Venus Project is not a reality (and probably won't be if in meanwhile we destroy ourselves) every person will need money. MONEY = cause of environmental and social problems. Just to make it clear: I understand what you mean, I am not retarted but we have different points of view.
ShittyAccount 9 months ago
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olddouchebag 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ShittyAccount you are not "retarted'. Obviously. Of course in the present system we all need and use money. He is offering another alternative without money. Which, for the good of the species in the long term, makes a lot of sense. If we keep going the way we are the pursuit of money and profit will be the demise of the human race.
olddouchebag 8 months ago
@ShittyAccount
We need money to make a transformation into the "new system" . Once "transformed" money can.... fuck right off ;)
TheNotoriousJesus 1 month ago
UNFORTUNATELY any time you talk about "global government", the useful idiots ("patriot" movements) break out in hives and throw a fit.
It NEVER seems to occur to them (and similar reactionaries) that the "Globalism" of the contemporary corporatocracy/banksters/old-elites is not the only notion of "globalism" to be had!
It is like saying that only totalitarian dictatorships exist amongst nation states!
These dummies think there is anything "new" about the "NWO." Thus, they have no solutions.
OuTofJoY 9 months ago
This is just great... thinking!
MagnitudePerson 1 year ago
again, Orgon, I think we are on the same page in many ways and few would objectively disagree with ideas like the VP- in principle
My concern is real life feasibility and action. Man has tried a few times many of the ideals you just wrote. Trusting a single godmind figure, man or machine, to disseminate resources sounds dangerous. 'Transparency' will definitely help with preventing corruption, but this is a relative term without means to ensure it. Be careful
supercat821 1 year ago
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OrgonVpH7 1 year ago
AWESOME dialouge! thaks folks
noselfnoproblemo 1 year ago
Sounds good, but beware agenda 21
supercat821 2 years ago
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OrgonVpH7 1 year ago 7
@OrgonVpH7 again, I like how it sounds and it's difficult for anyone to disagree with it's premise
My main concern is corruption. What fail-safes to ensure equal dissemination of resources. Who controls, and by what process. Does this involve "re-education", and if so by what reason?
This is a major detail
No government sounds nice, but what specifically will take it's place? If anyone is to take the VP seriously for real life implementation these questions need more than a beautiful idea
supercat821 1 year ago
@OrgonVpH7 U.N is the most crpaitalist, and free-market enterprise related corruption. But dont forget the NATO and EU, and even FN are all controlled by the U.S goverment who getsp aid of by big corporations for self-investment and earth-resources harvesting. R
MagnitudePerson 1 year ago
Genius with such simplicity, incredibly remarkable. Peace and unity. Namaste
ReyesRobby 2 years ago
this was the thing about communism.. if someone figures out a patch of land is more usefull how do you stop them hoarding it..
someone might own a simple house and 4 gens later the area is built up & it goes up in price.. (just thinking about the HUGE price discrepancy between same physical room in backwater vs capital city)
communist answer is authority (organized mob) kicks them out because no ones allowed better house.. regulations on room sizes etc
walter0bz 2 years ago
test
anarchy3E 2 years ago
hey...pssst.....he's just a person. He's not more important. Everybody is the same, valuable person.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
The educ. within this system will get rid of social class ideas, racism, hierarchy...all learned ideology in this environment.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
Excuse my typos..
blaziermissy 2 years ago
Most people don't even have a basic concept of evolution and certainly don't understand natural selection....
with all due respect, our layperson interpretation of both are media advocated...not coming close to a true understanding.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
Recognizing symbiosis in regard to computers is great, but why not see that recognizing it in regard to humankind is of utmost importance, b/c we're affecting every aspect of this planet.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
others?
National-Socialism would flood earth with aryans. Soviets/Chinese declared science supreme.. & still damaged enviro;& of course religious types follow gods instruction to "go forth and multiply".
all viruses.
VP can only be different if it has population control - and that will be voluntary? education? everyone interprets same info differently..
capitalism does not over-produce humans, it just delivers what people want.
further 'system' protects people from themselves.
walter0bz 2 years ago
I never said capitalism advocates over production.....
There is NO Need to depopulate b/c there are enough resources, however in a rbe population and having responsible reproduction will be addressed in education, which will be a higher education than has ever been offered to us under capitalism. This ed will be for EVERYONE.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
clearly you have anti-Capitalist conviction:)
i like capitalism over other systems BUT
[1] I despise credit-boom ("never a borrower or lender be")
[2] i despise deep heirachy (and masses empowering a leader)
[3]i describe my utopia as "eco-capitalist". i explain capitalism to friends-*private land ownership* - you have parents land, then breed in balance with it, manipulate it to create improve your q.of.life
[more
problem is most people conned into breeding by banker lending landless parent.
walter0bz 2 years ago
banker lending to landless parent....
You really need to open your mind to analyze the system you advocate. It doesn't work...
Did you even watch this video? Please do.
utopia and socialism are just propoganda buzz words designed for you to mindlessly refute what you obviously don't understand.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
walter0bz 2 years ago
The very fact that you use the words 'always' is unscientific.
Embrace a better world. Stop finding any excuse not to research the vp extensively. It's sound and logical....applying the scientific method to our economic and social system.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
now, if you understood my post, answer these Q in context
Q1 what is greatest "ordered" phenomenon in universe.
Q2 how many babies do you want to have
walter0bz 2 years ago
education?
give different people same info, they intpret it differently .. because each individual was a different experiment by nature (different enviroment, different history)
i am using analogy of software/hardware :)
once algorithm figured 'useful' it is built into hardware.
human thought = software.
human instrinct = hardware.
nature only needs brains if there is *disagreement*
in VP utopia, does everyone agree? i hypothesise Nature will not tolerate that & declare human=waste of energy
walter0bz 2 years ago
[more, sorry :) ]
education - vs instinct.
instinct = maximum babies
religion = maximum babies
some educate people think "replicating genes produced me so i must replicate genes". or even "my genes the best so i muts replicate maximally and sweep asside other genes" and also "upward population pressure is driver for new technology"
you can't educate people out of that. conflict is inevitable so long as humans continue :(
walter0bz 2 years ago
Yes you can. Someone taught you that mindset in regard to people and reproduction and you can certainly dismiss the info with newer, sound info. case and point.
blaziermissy 2 years ago 2
big problem is complexity of modern world. to get food you need geology->oil rig->petrochemicals->farms->tractors->distribution->fridges.
even at 10 people (simple jungle tribe) you get issue of alpha dominance.
With such complex world you will always have information asymetry and opportunity for middleman to control
Bigger the worlds population, the deeper the pyramid.
How many of your friends use Linux instead of Windows?
walter0bz 2 years ago
First of all in a RBE we wouldn't need oil b/c we would utilize a more efficient energy for obtaining food in regard to machinery. Secondly, you should look into hydroponics, geothermal energy, meglav, tidal wave energy, etc. These energies could have and will be harnessed once Capitalism and profit are out of the picture, making way for EFFICIENCY instead of profit.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
you need to quantify everything.
it takes a certain amount of energy to build the tidal machines, build the turbines.
communist nations would already be doing it.
fact is nothing matches oil's energy-density..convineince..portability.
if all this was possible, we'd see billionaires buildng it for themselves.. self sufficient island cities or whatever.
fact is most of our life depends on huge *economies of scale*
walter0bz 2 years ago
I don't think you understand communism: it's monetary based you know. The only difference in communism is the amount of regulation by the govt. The govt controls the money, not the people. Let's be clear on that.
Billionaires don't make money off of efficiency. Capitalism is designed around mass consumption of resources and planned obselesance so that things break down in a timely manner so as to make more profit.
It's insane, isn't is?
blaziermissy 2 years ago
[1] communism starts with VP ideal. soviets intended to eliminate money (they estimated it would take many decades) they used to count labour-exchange. give people choice & they do no work :)
westerners now associate the word with Authoritarian/Dictatorship, hence VP tries very hard to pretend it isn't communism when it is.
take away money and resources are rationed/redistributed by secret-police.
walter0bz 2 years ago
VP is not Communism because people in VP do not "work". Nobody wants to do work if the job is arbitrary and uninteresting, that's where technology comes in and help us do it all while we have more free time to devote to hobbies, education, and passions. Communism failed because it did not have technology on its side, and it did not educate people to have the right incentives and values.
lugia3 2 years ago
dumbass
we always have enough technology
green-revolution of 1960's trippled agricultural yields because people were starving
what happened?
population trippled.
&
people are starving
MALTHUS WAS RIGHT
walter0bz 2 years ago
Great job starting with a name calling. You expect me to take you seriously after that? The Green Revolution was a pathetic attempt at trying to absolve hunger and deprivation by physically inventing better sources of food for a mentally unstable and uneducated society which does not know how to fully utilize such resources. Btw, I said technology and right incentives and values (also education), not technology alone. Stop answering to comments when you don't even finish reading my sentences.
lugia3 2 years ago
and i re-iterate -
infintie regression
lots of peeps want VP
peeps incharge are already figuring out how to manipulate that
some chap tried this 2000 years ago his name begins with "j", there's also a big selling book...
you've got no chance.
like i say, just commit genetic suicide like me. the memes will fight it out. dont waste your sweat
walter0bz 2 years ago
"VP is not communism because people in VP do not work"
how do you stop people working to enslave you
(without laws or military)
VP is a nice dream of "steady-state utopia"
i'd love to live there - but if you think it's possible please study more..
walter0bz 2 years ago
Funny use of the word "work" there. When I refer to work, I mean doing some form of arbitrary, repetitive form of physical or mental labor which requires minimal thought. Venus project already stated that it needs to happen on a global scale, with the people. Why would people want to enslave us in the Venus Project? Slaves are used to do things for us that we don't like to do. If people are provided living materials, and are not forced to do anything they don't like to do, why do we need slaves?
lugia3 2 years ago
dorry to say "dubass" but
i have parent from communist country and sorry.. anecdotals of idealistic hopes resonate
when i went to college she had 2 fears for me - "drugs" and "communists" hehe
Soviets had state of the art tech. Peeps into space before USA, & created superior small arms, etc..
you want to create symbiosis with Machines?. (eugenics/transhumanism).. different matter
my agenda is i dont want rapid-breeding humans taking solar away from machines when the fossil fuels run out
walter0bz 2 years ago
Thanks for apologizing. So you're worried about over-population creating scarcity of solar energy? Well, a lot of energy and power are wasted because our technologies are highly inefficient, and sap a lot of energy. Also a lot of units of technology are produced because we don't like to share. That also wastes energy in the production process. When we create efficient technology and learn to share, we'll have a lot more energy left over.
lugia3 2 years ago
global dimming - smoke clouds reflect sunglight. solar panels= MORE GLOBAL WARMING
wind power=stops Gaia's heat-distribution...
i love open-source & bicyckes btw.
start on the car-drivers please.
our technologies are EXTREMELY efficient, it's just most humans are FUCKING STUPID SHEEP ENGINEERED BY CENTURIES OF GENETIC ENGINEERING
if you wake up, you'll concentrate resources into fewer, more intelligent+self-sufficient offspring.
for me.. zero i give up, you fight it out amongst yourselves
walter0bz 2 years ago
How does solar panels = global warming?
Our technologies are extremely inefficient. They suck up power like no tomorrow and even our solar panels need a lot more work.
Every single human being is "intelligent" if you give them the right environment to culminate their innate abilities.
lugia3 2 years ago
>>"How does solar panels = global warming?"
read up on "global dimming"
>>"Our technologies are extremely inefficient. "
then stop using them
unless you realise you are a component cell in greater industrial machine.
interesting fact - amoeba has 100x genome size of human.. it could carry human blueprints & not even notice.
bacteria->amoba -> multicell organisms->man-> industrial-super-organism
thats where we're at. nature didn't make us to be happy. we are transitional form
walter0bz 2 years ago
" >>"Our technologies are extremely inefficient. "
then stop using them"
ts not that simple to just let go of technology, and technological process is ongoing. I say they're inefficient because they have room for improvement, and they're made to be ineffective so energy companies can make a buck. By the way I'd suggest you look over your comments before making them. Your arguments go all over the place and makes little sense.
Btw Global dimming has nothing to do with solar panels.
lugia3 2 years ago
>>"Btw Global dimming has nothing to do with solar panels. "
ok u;ve got to make the logical step for you
h
(i) global dimming =i measurable reduction in temp from white cloud-cover reflecting heat away into space.
on the day after 911, planes were grounded. they measured a temporary rise in worldwide temp because the vapour-trails were no longer reflecting.
(ii) some suggest you can reduce GW by painting roofs white :)
(iii) conversely, painting things black will absorb more heat
walter0bz 2 years ago
I should remind you that vapor trails have a regional effect, not a global one. A scientist researching the topic stated this in his interview. It is an interesting find, but yet to be backed up by additional research. Solar panels still has nothing to do with dimming or warming. If anything, its efficiency in heat absorption is reduced via dimming, and global warming is reduced via solar power rather than fuel and natural gas. It doesn't cause dimming or warming.
lugia3 2 years ago
true i bring up the trails since i hypothesise capturing more heat (whatever means) will still impact nature. white reflects & cools earth, black absorbs & heats earth :)
On subject of education, what do we do about the people who DENY global warming even exists :)
walter0bz 2 years ago
Well I believe that global warming exists, but not to the degree that we extrapolate it to be. Also, there's the subject of "who to believe". I've read documents supporting both sides of the argument, and frankly, there's more climatologists and geologists denying global warming than supporting, despite popular beliefs. Plus I've looked at charts "proving" global warming. They were minuscule changes in temperature followed by extremely generous extrapolations. I don't know what to say.
lugia3 2 years ago
personally i think they push GW as least panic inducing method to prepare us for peak oil hehe
if UK government openly said "i dont know how we'll feed you after north sea oil runs out in 20 years" society might collapse sooner :)
i dont know how anyone can trust another country to supply something you depend on for survival :)
too many unknowns hence why i think we should aim for underpopulation so there's a buffer when supply/enviro changes
walter0bz 2 years ago
r.e. GW i am 50%-70% convinced, but 100% convinced we do serious damage *somewhere*; also 100% convinced about peak-oil, and only 10-20%(?) convinced that we'll get something like fusion to maintain lifestyle.
I think we're all find ourselves living in circumstances more like China or areas ruled by local warlords middle-ages style. if fiat ends cocaine&ammo would probably be new currencies.
not sure which way the US will go, armed populace can stay free? or would breakup be more brutal?
walter0bz 2 years ago
Don't know man, all I know is its gunna be a baaaaad future. That's why I'm sticking with VP, its a good alternative to military induced nightmare I call "the near future".
lugia3 2 years ago
"s not that simple to just let go of technology,"
sure- because the technology made you, not the other way round :) i suspect you can't survive without it.
>>"and they're made to be ineffective so energy companies can make a buck"
this is overly conspiratorial :) samsung LEDTV selling point is reduced power consumption. Similarly laptops are sold with battery-life.. i.e. reduced power
people have option of bicycle transport, but they choose car
it's PEOPLE that are voluntarily inneficient
walter0bz 2 years ago
How is that overly conspiratorial? Samsung LED TV and the likes are quite expensive compared to the average, power sucking television. If a family cannot afford energy efficient television, what can they do? Only the rich can afford to "save energy" and they do it out of their own pocket. I agree that technology is available to us, but the majority of humans do not have the buying power to buy it. They can only stick with the less efficient, power sucking models, so companies make more of these.
lugia3 2 years ago
All levels of the heirachy compete
you're probably right to observe energy companies have the most "power" by far.
but every other stage of the chain of engineering is at liberty to create energy-saving devices / lifestyles .. to reduce money they give to the energy company :) (&increase their own profit of course)
I think the whole distribution side of businesses is basically about reducing energy required to get from producer to consumer.. e.g. economies of scale in large shipments
walter0bz 2 years ago
negative factors in our world=qty of power concentrated in elite but what can we do? seems we have to learn how the system works & use it well
if we dig up oil (or Geothermal..) then whoever occupies that most important land makes the rules.
Pretty sure billionaires will survive dollar collapse by buying military bunkers& filling with lifetime supplies
reason for imbalances = economies of scale & level of specialization? mass-production sadly seems to reduce value of individual craftsmen ?
walter0bz 2 years ago
Yes it would seem fair to learn about how the system works and use it to your advantage, but what about those that did not have the opportunity or the environment to learn about it? Its probably naive to you, that VP to want to create a society where there's the least amount of suffering, but its an honorable goal that I advocate for. Btw yes you're right, billionaires are buying stuff up like crazy while dollar collapsed.
lugia3 2 years ago
i do agree minimizing suffering is a good goal. I just dont think whole world would agree details.
maybe internet helps people educate themselves.. .. then again we've always had books.
Peeps who can educate themselves & avoid paying will have an advantage.(UK further edu=SCAM today)
the power of software.. was wondering myself how many engineering jobs can be reduced to data & done by anyone anywhere.. e.g. see "folding at home". Could we eventually see "open-source drugs" developped ?
walter0bz 2 years ago
Yes, I think the internet will be VP's saving grace. There's this thing in Indian called "Hole in the wall computers". This program attracted sooo many Indian slum children to the computers, and they taught themselves English in a matter of months. Books are kinda a thing of the past now, since we got the internet, which helps us transfer information at a much faster rate.
The internet is truly amazing.
lugia3 2 years ago 11
i sort of class the internet as a new form of life, using individual humans as networked processors. (just as individual blobby amoeboid brain cells make our intelligence). the matrix is a v.good analogy
my fear is post peak oil we wont have land to support it. someone will want the solar panel area for food. thats why i'm so keen on population control. land for human subsistence vs land for human+solar-panels to drive fast internet connection & powerful 3d hardware ..
walter0bz 2 years ago
There are many alternatives to where we can grow food, and many alternatives to where we can put solar panels. It doesn't have to be a flat area, or on the ground for that matter. The ancient Chinese method of mountain agriculture is a good example, not to mention hydroponics - a recent discovery.
When people are given a higher quality of life, they'll start having less children. Just look at Europe.
lugia3 2 years ago
if you haven't already check out
bbc iplayer Horizon - 2009-2010 - 7. How Many People Can Live on Planet Earth?
Resonates with my thinking except he's not pessimistic enough on Peak Oil :)
they say China currently has "fair" per-head resource consumption.
I beleive VP=false hope from oversimplification.
Sharing/sustainability will look like rural china, not those fancy futuristic renders
Sharing our current lifestyle needs reduction to 1-2billion
who defines correct lifestyle/pop balance?
walter0bz 2 years ago
... & in china they've already got ruthless authority willing to do whatever it takes to use every scrap of land they have as efficiently as possible to compete with west ... I dont buy this argument that money creates false scarcity at all.
walter0bz 2 years ago
Well, I guess you could say VP is naive to try to create a world where there's the least amount of suffering, but its an honorable end goal that I would advocate for. And yes I agree, if companies dig up other resources, they'll just use it for control, that's why technology and the future will always be used to oppress people, which is why people refuse to change.
lugia3 2 years ago
final thought
fresco shows sea cities.
there are already highly intelligent solar powered eco-friendly creatures there.
why does the sea need humans
walter0bz 2 years ago
"Funny use of the word "work" there. When I refer to work, I mean doing some form of arbitrary, repetitive form of physical or mental labor which requires minimal thought."
great. if you hate your life, dont have kids
easy
i'm having zero, thanks
or what?-you think Darwin says you must reproduce?
you know where that leads
walter0bz 2 years ago
Dude, I don't see how you got "I hate my life" from that description of "work". Yes children take up a lot of resources and time for one (or two) individual(s) to raise them. I don't plan on having kids, I'd rather adopt one instead. Also, I'd suggest that you try to stay on topic and not stray from the point being made. It makes discussion annoying and tedious (e.g. how did you go from labor work to Darwin?) I think that's why "blaziermissy" stopped replying to your comments.
lugia3 2 years ago
If all resources are "common heritage" (communism), does that mean you are not allowed [a] private property (a personal living space) [b] any private possesions
if you take some lovely free resources in this la la land and then construct something with them, is the constructed object still common heritage that anyone else can take at any time.. or being "unique" has it suddenly become a SCARCE object.
maybe only prefab constructions are allowed ? no more innovation ?
walter0bz 2 years ago
First of all, common heritage does NOT equal communism. That's what we've been taught, and it's illogical.
Technology will be at the forefront to enhance and make our lives better, which is what technology should have been all along, not something to sell to those who can afford it.
go to the site and read. If you research it, you'll see that it's common sense to move toward this.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
what a man!!! and what ideologies!!
I wish we all had almost the same thinking he has, its just amazing
xKrl0Zx 2 years ago
We all have the capacity to think like him, we've been indoctrinated into a system that thwarts it.
Logic and common sense have been lost under our prevailing system and we couldn't see the forest for the trees.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
most people who dont want to pay for OS use pirate copy.. keeping windows ubiquitous.. keeping bill gates in power. reason - they dont want to do the extra community work of building momentum for linux. they want the economies of scale that windows provides.
if people can't manage free software, it is highly unlikely that they can manage free resources.
walter0bz 2 years ago
First of all I don't have extensive computer knowledge but I'm learning. Secondly, I use what I already have, and thirdly your black and white thinking is indicative of your "any old excuse" to discount a logical and sound society.
Btw, Bill Gates is being approached to help advocate this society. If people can't manage to think beyond their judgement it's highly unlikely they can manage to advocate a resource based society.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
problem is not capitalism but the small elite have large resource claim.
history shows every attempt to remove elite simply produces a new one- and existing elite will not give up resource/land *voluntarily*.
I do like VP ideal, i just beleive it over-optimistic, fans generally base on mis-understanding of science/nature.
Read malthusian theory. People always multiply too much causing scarcity of one resource or another.
nature would not need our complex brains if life was"easy"
walter0bz 2 years ago
I disagree. Capitalism, by it's very design, is flawed. Capitalism IS mass consumption of resources and those who have the advantage consume the most, while others starve. It pits us against each other, competing for jobs just to meet our primary needs. It's primitive and creates a social hierarch and breeds mental neurosis.
Look at our world. It's sick. Why should some families live in gluttonous opulence while others starve to death? Even the apathy to the plight of others is sick.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
You've been TAUGHT to think we're over populated by this established system. Don't you see that? Without capitalistic waste and hording and inneficiency, there is an abundance of resources and tech advances (without profit) will create more abundance.
Capitalism's enemy is abundance, b/c scarcity makes prices go up. Am I making sense to you now?
blaziermissy 2 years ago
no you are not :)
you are blaming all worlds problems on *capitalist system* and *profit*
scarcity is caused pure and simple by people having too many babies. exponential growth function.
from one gen to next,
pop goes up 3x (whatever), tech improves 2x, and the difference is all the misery.
hence for utopia, you must control pop. tech improves, then some rationing process (central command, mob-rule,or money) dictates allowable number of babies.
difficulty is calculating correctly.
walter0bz 2 years ago
thats why as i explained, when there's a communist (or national socialist) revolution, they dont suddenly find abundance. they have choice of external war or internal mass murder.
it is simple mathematics. population dynamics. conservation of energy.
entropy.
nature does not spontaneously produce order. life is temporary order caused by disorder in burned fuel / plants eaten whatever.. net effect of life is actually increased disorder in nature. this is physics.
we are a virus with shoes
walter0bz 2 years ago
We have the potential to be "sound stewards" of this planet and we hold the paintbrush to evolution. We have the capacity and knowledge to guide ourselves logically in creating an efficient, sustainable life on this planet for all. We're not doing it. It's time to start.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
100% agree that credit boom is a bad. stable commodity-backed currency would help sustainability.
market is like a giant supercomputer, credit like speed/cocaine.
personally I would like to see stable human population with "evolution"/ascent of complexity continuing through machines. got to hope its' a symbiosis :)
would like to see flatter heirachy / more personal independance. how to acheive? very difficult to compete with "economies of scale" of large corps :(
but do look into OpenSource..
walter0bz 2 years ago
I just simply don't understand why you refuse to see that Capitalism by its very nature will never be sound. It's flawed, unsound and doesn't benefit ALL and never will.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
All these systems have been tried, capitalism = least bad.
I suspect people who object to Capitalism really object to excessive power/resource in hands of too few (I do!) but you must realise this is inevitable consequence of worlds size&complexity.
the bigger the collective, the bigger the chance for middleman to exploit.
I urge you to study windows v linux for analogy.
eliminating gates' power comes at cost of individual responsibility (i.e. work filtering/configuring/more bugs)
walter0bz 2 years ago
least bad? lol. Anytime profit trumps human concern, pollutes the water and air and thwarts tech and med technology, all the while driving greedy corporations to enslave and manipulate and control and even STARVE other countries....
You DON'T have a system that works.
Am I clear? It's not difficult to see this, is it?
Are you so greedy and indoctrinated yourself that you can't see this? Be honest with yourself.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
profit will always trump human concern. always.
greed is what keeps people alive, its built in their operating program, the greed to know more, to expirience more, to earn more.
the system indeed doesnt work. we need a new system you say? cool.
just dont tell me its the system of a senile old man that paints pretty pictures all day long dreaming the imposible. a change in basic human nature.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
No, that's completely incorrect. Profit will trump human concern, because that is how the system will preserve itself. If a company puts humans first, then profit, it won't survive for very long. The system is inherently flawed. There is NO evidence that greed keeps people alive, you believe in it because its what you were brought up to believe. Greed is NOT human nature, it is human behavior. The fear of scarcity is human nature, and that is perpetuated by society. Get rid of it, no greed.
Youanden 2 years ago
you cant have a profitless system. people need to work for some kind of profit and if they can get a little bit more by giving someone a little bit less, they will.
oh come on, greed is human nature. you can even see it in kids that want to have most of the colourfull pencils when playing with other kids at age 7. its natural for them.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
lmao, at age 7, many children can be taught to speak four languages. By that time, they would already be indoctrinated. Also, you fail to look at Feral children, those kids who were left alone by humans, and behaved and inherited the value system of those common animals, e.g. Wolves, or Monkeys. And profit is just an angle. I think profit should be about resource stability and human betterment. In a monetary system, it is a number in a terminal. But go on...
Youanden 2 years ago
"at age 7 MANY children can be taught 4 languages"?
in what scientific journal did you read that?
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Well, truthfully, I didn't get that from a scientific journal, but I did apply the logic known about intellectual capacity and observed cases to this thought process.
psychology( dot )ucdavis( dot )edu/Simonton/WPAaddress.ppt
Youanden 2 years ago
"i did apply the logic known..."
dont apply logic if there isnt an extensive scientific experiment on paper.
if you do, its just wishfull thinking to support your own (probably biased) opinion.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Another point Jacque addresses, and I will also individually address, is about greed NOT as human nature, but as a human PROPENSITY that is only triggered under certain conditions. Jacque advocates, in a way, that every person be given the best materials, and best resources possible, so there is no need for "more colorful pencils". Can't you see that that kind of greed is not inbred, but triggered by the way the system is structured?
Youanden 2 years ago
thats why i say this man is senile
how can everyone be given the besta materials all around the world? can you think of a way? can he?
i ve seen most of his vids online and he doesnt actually propose anything, he just theorizes.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Greed is NOT innherant to humans, nor is there human nature, but only human behavior.
Btw, without this faulty, corrupt system that perpetuates and breeds greed, there would be very little greedy behavior.
Insulting Fresco? Par, based on your comment. He's a genius, you moron.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-Greed is NOT innherant to humans...without this faulty, corrupt system...there would be very little greedy behavior-
ask yourself, why would there still be greed in jacks perfect, non corrupt system? maybe because its human nature? :)
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Again, there is no human nature, only human behavior. Behavior is shaped by the environment. Change the environment, change the behavior. A social and econ.system like the Venus project advocates would deter greed. There'd be no reason for the behavior in such a society. If you don't believe me, there are thousands of experiments in the behavioral science category that you're welcome to replicate. Don't worry, you can learn to curtail your greed:)
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-Change the environment, change the behavior-
while true...on the surface, it is not simple at all to do. human nature will find a way to surface sooner or later. humans are not robots to follow reasonable rules ALL the time. sometimes they want to be unreasonable and not exclusively cerebral beings like jack. is there police in his perfect state? with what are they "paid"? do they have guns?
poorly thought out utopia. nothing more.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
I don't think you understand human behavior, o.k.? No offense, but that's my forte. You're wrong. Get back to me when you've completed the research.
The Venus project is viable, scientifically sound, and can work.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
you didnt answer my question. no crime in his perfect society? you can possibly believe that.
like i said in another post, the mass need to be little budhas for his plan to be viable.
the mass is clearly not.
you cant force someone to evolve with rules and social pressure, the change needs to come from within.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
There won't be a "reason" for the majority of crimes. There will be some crime, but reduced tremendously. Mental neurosis or addictive behavior patterns would persist, but could be addressed with cognitive restructuring therapy and new tech. In other words, abb behavior won't go unadressedas it has in our system now; the new system will actually work on the "root" causes and find solutions.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-There won't be a "reason" for the majority of crimes-
cause we all will be equal? like communism?
lol all are equal but some are more equal from others.
-There will be some crime, but reduced tremendously-
cool, so does the police get paid with produce? organic lemons and oranges? or privileges? inequality anyone?
anarchy3E 2 years ago
There will be no need for money.......all primary needs will be met without a price tag...
Why don't you read about it?
blaziermissy 2 years ago
yes thats the theory.
but how will they be compensated for their 8 hours of work? doctors, policemen, maintenece personell working for nothing? for the good of the community, free food and power?
and you honestly think they will be happy?
or is that irrelevant in this "perfect" society?
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Read my posts:)
blaziermissy 2 years ago
If you don't mind me asking...what's your profession? Do you work/study within the human sciences, etc.?
blaziermissy 2 years ago
i mind :)
i wonder...can i "mind" in jacks future domes or is some dome person going to come to my home to ...persuade me not to "mind"
his whole design seems like totalitarian shientocracy
anarchy3E 2 years ago
All humans will be afforded a lifestyle as high as B. Gates, you're free to travel and pursue education, spend time with family, develp hobbies, etc.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
lol empty promises.
one question. how?
how will i be given the lifestyle of bill gates (id rather not)?
please...go at it step by step...i m curious.
oh let me guess, its all in his website and i need to study it huh? lol
anarchy3E 2 years ago
No, I'm supposed to do all of the research and post it here on mulltiple post with charachter limitations. Is that what you'd like? Do you have something against learning or researching something?
The higher standards of living are for ALL people. Never before has the scientific method been applied to an economic or social system. It's sound. Read about it if you're interested...if not, that's your choice.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
an empty promise: you mean eternal life if you're good or under democracy we are all equal?
I think we know already what an empty promise is...
blaziermissy 2 years ago
indeed we do, thats how we can recognize another one...from experience :)
anarchy3E 2 years ago
This project is NOT an elitist sponsored project. There's a difference. This project has to be advocated by the people...enough people across the globe and within different countries...for it to work.
If enough people advocate it, it can be done.
An elitist version of this is unacceptable.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
some people will be at the top positions, cause lets face it, you cant educate everyone and make him a responsible citizen (no, not even in "dome cities")
these people will get drunk with power, corrupt, foregeting the "ideals"
why? cause its human nature. you cant make people into angels cause then they wouldnt be human anymore.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Seriously...there will be no social hierarchy...it won't be about competition...competitive behavior. There will be no leader, only rotating delegates...because any power position leads to corruption.
Humans have lived 99% of our existance in egalitarianism...upstartism was not permitted in the groups and it worked well. With agriculture came social hierarchy and thus, poverty.
This project can work...
blaziermissy 2 years ago
you cant have a society without some sort of comptetion. if you dont have it, people will invent it.
dont you understand? its human nature, we are not like ants, eveyone in sync working for the greater good of the colony. we are not mindless drones.
rotating delegates? lol only a matter of time before interests and under the table deals run your "rotating delegates"
anarchy3E 2 years ago
NO, it's not...lol. Again, there is no human nature, just behavior. Our environment has aggrandized competition. No, we're not mindless drones...all the more reason we deserve to live in a society like this. There will be NO REASON for upstartism...b/c people will have what they need or want...latest technology...travel...food..housing..etc. The behavior we've learned in this environment can be UNlearned.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-b/c people will have what they need or want-
wants and needs are often very different things.
i might need very little to stay alive but a lot more to stay content. will it be given to me?
really? or are they going to pressure me to except only what i need?
you know the answer.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
You can't ask for 30 cell phones or 50 stereos etc., In other words, within reason. That's the whole point of a resource based society. There will be abundance, but efficiency and intelligent management is taught. This way, ALL people live great. Do you see the premise of where the ideology is coming from?
blaziermissy 2 years ago
ah! within reason you say? ok so if i want to drink beer and have sex with willing girls all day without lifting a finger to help the community, i can?
cause thats reasonable according to me, is it not according to you?
anarchy3E 2 years ago
You can do that if you'd like, but within the new system I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't do that all day long.
You'd have new incentives, more access to things...no limitations as we all have now due to our purchasing power.
Continual, accessive behaviors like drinking all day or having sex all day are behaviors expected within this environment we live in now...sort of rebelling against a confining, limiting system. You'd be happier in the new system...
blaziermissy 2 years ago
lol dont lie. you know i couldnt lazy around and have fun all day. that would lead to a snowballing effect and if everyone was doing it who would tend to the machines and produce?
"lazying around and drinking beer" would be made illegal by the council in no time. and you know it.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Seriously, you want do that behavior all of the time, b/c you're going to "want" to contribute to society in some way. Btw, eventually 90% of jobs would be phased out....so your contrib. to society would be helping others who may need help, higher ed, etc, or invention, art, etc., etc. There are many ways to contribute...think about it..
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-you are going to "want" to contribute-
are you really this naive? do you really believe every person is an angel? no rotten apples? come on...a little realism please.
-90% of jobs would be phased out-
more wishfull thinking. i can make a very very very long list of proffesions that would still be needed. why? cause we simply dont have the technology yet.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Education and technology will be at the forefront. All will be afforde and education (if preferred) like none we've ever had, b/c there won't be limitations on knowledge do to politics (even ivy league schools don't give adequate education)
blaziermissy 2 years ago
i repeat. you cant educate everyone, cause not everyone is interested in education.
especially in a "free" society like jacks.
and if you have some educated, some not...what do you have but a 2 class system? inequality once again, a simplified todays society with all its faults brewing.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
You have to afford a basic education, otherwise the person couldn't function within the society, but the basic ed will be standards such that we've never seen...no limits. We live under an ed system now that produces people that are just smart enough to do a job and dumb enough to accept their slave position, so to speak.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-you HAVE to..-
so jacks "free" society has "have to s" huh? hm...
also you didnt adress my 2 class system, those higher educated and those only basic educated. inequality? a "master-slave" mentality? ofcourse.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
There will be no 2 class system. NO social hierarchy...none...ever. Basic education will be very high standards...those who desire to pursue more will do so. The higher the ed, the better off all will be, b/c people will be contributing to the society..
blaziermissy 2 years ago
no matter how high standards the basic (forced) education has there will always be something above it, the even higher education.
thats 2 separate groups of people. 2 classes.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Nobody's going to "force" you to get an educ., you'll want it...
the social hierarchy you speak of is learned in this environment. Social class is a human construct. We made it up. It's a mental/ego ignorant concept. Sure, more educ. people will congreg with the like, but there will be no reinforcement for doing so like it is in this environment.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
i ll want it? i quarantee you some people will not want it. and they will be made 3rd rate "dome" citizens.
-but there will be no reinforcement for doing so -
dont you undestand you dont need outside reinforcement? having a 2 speed education system is enough reinf.
social hierarchy will always exist. people need someone to look up too, its human nature.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
Sure, some people will have anxieties or reluctant to engage in educ., but to live in a world without laws or police, and tech is high and advanced you must have educ to truly benefit and adapt. Also, so that the envir and greater whole runs smoothly. You are going in equal, so why would you want to jeopardize that and handicap yourself? Behavior will be impt. and root causes of behavior will be addressed.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
-you MUST have educ to truly benefit-
must, have to, this society sounds less and less free and "healthy".
-root causes of behavior will be addressed.-
looool its like im reading straight out of a nazi propaganda booklet.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
my lang. come from my studies. Identifying root causes of our behavior within an environment is "crucial" to providing answers to a better environment. It's the end goal. Sorry if you don't like the language. How's this: We gotta get to the bottom of that jacked up behavior.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
the bottom of our jacked up behaviour is our nature. our human nature.
and that cant be "addressed".
why? cause gene manipulation is at an infant stage. if you cant go to the core (and we cant) you can only achieve superficial & temporary "improvements" to humans.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
omg, you're hung up on that, aren't you? Behavior is partially genetically determined, but it is the environment/culture/ that shapes and produces our behavior.
Ex: you can have the genetic propensity for depression, but until some stressor like a death of a loved one or some other life struggling event, the depression will not occur spontaneously.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
indeed the environment is very important. is it a more deciding factor than genetics? answer, no.
ex. you cant make some people "saints" by surrounding them with the ideal conditions. some people are naturally born antisocial. or very smart. or very dumb. or hopeless dreamers.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
You're just skeptical...which is healthy and so am I, but whatever bothers me about this project, I ask questions, and someone answers them for me.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
oh i ask questions.
its answers that are lacking.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
As long as you "BELIEVE" that there's such a thing as a DEFAULT, generalized human nature, you'll not grasp that behavior is environmentally learned.
blaziermissy 2 years ago
behaviour is. but its just a mask for your true human nature.
how you behave and how you are, are 2 different things.
anarchy3E 2 years ago
You're far reaching.....
Education is for better communication...to understand the world aro