Peter Russell - Primacy of Conciousness (4 of 7)

[TheMrMLimbo]

... Thanks

[ShaOneVideo]

We assume there is an objective reality... hahahaha :) Beautiful!

[SolarRainUK]

While I was watching this lecture, I wondered at which point he would say something that totally discredits himself..8:10 did it for me.

He's basically saying, that everything we perceive with our senses is nothing like the real world, even though it can all be measured objectively. But incredibly, he knows for certain that we are self-aware/conscious (this is subjective). Amazing, that millions of years of evolution were required to produce a planet full of such stupid, delusional meat bags :)

[MyMindTank]

@SolarRainUK Dude. You are so right. How can we measure something quote "Objectively" when are subjective beings. Everything we do takes place only in the mind, filtered by human bias. Therefore, everything we do will never be objective.

[snoo333]

@SolarRainUK Sorry to hear about how your Ego disagrees with this man. This theory has been going around for a couple of years now. I also do not think he is a stupid man either. where is your theory on this subject? what lecture have you given on this subject? its sad to see people make such quick judgements after millions of years of evolution.

hope this did not offend you. good luck.

[SolarRainUK]

@snoo333 Don't worry, your reply didn't offend me, even though that does seem to be your purpose. For one, I never said the guy is stupid, nor does my post have anything to do with my ego and it's only your assumption that I made a quick judgement ;) Either you totally misunderstood my post, or you misunderstood what Peter Russell is inferring. Either way, it's actually you who made a quick judgement. No offence ;)

[snoo333]

@SolarRainUK again, sorry brother, no offence. if i have made a wrong statement, then, please forgive my statements as the were not ment to offend.

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK What we precieve with our senses isn't in the external world its in our brains. there are no colours in the external world only our brains perceptions of colours being put into our minds/ consciousness. So think of it like our brain is a pair of 3D glasses. If we go into a cinema with no 3D glasses on then our perception of that movie will be different to everyone else wearing those 3D glasses. So he didn't discredit himself at all and this is actually proven by science.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa Of course it's in the external world, wether a thing has senses or not, it still exists..Light is electromagnetic radiaton, it doesn't magically vanish if there's nothing to perceive it. Colour is just that radiation in a limited spectrum of frequencies that our eyes/brains have evolved/adapted to perceive in a way that makes sense to us and aids our survival. Go ahead and show me some proof that radiation doesn't exist.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa If instead, you're trying to argue that our senses and our minds represent to us a false/inaccurate picture of the real world, we can discuss that instead.

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK He didn't say there was no external world he said the images that are created in the brain and viewed by consciousness is not accurate of what actually is in the real world. So there might be no solid objects in the real world. Atoms are 99% space just flactuations of energy or w.e and electrons are just waves untill they are observed. So really the materialism of the world is in our minds not in the external world.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa Sorry, I haven't watched these talks for a long time, so his ideas aren't fresh in my mind. Of course, I accept that the mind creates only a representation of the external world, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. If it wasn't accurate, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Think of all the interactions between atoms and electromagnetic fields involved just to send this message. Our daily lives are filled with such complicated interactions which we manage effortlessly.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa Solid objects don't just exist in our minds, this is where you're confused. The configuration/number of atoms is what gives us elements and the empty space between the nucleus and electrons is much more important than you realise. The only thing I will agree with, is that our perception of the quantum world IS inaccurate, but this relatively unimportant. We don't live in a micro world, we live in the macro. Trust your senses, it took the cosmos a long time to get them right.

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK Atoms arn't solid though thats the thing. So how are they solid in the external world? Imo they arn't solid in the external world only our brains perception of it. So if we have a different brain our perception of reality would be slightly different its like a pair of glasses. Like a telescope so when someone looks through a narrow telescope their perception of the other side will be narow and if the telescope is wider itll be wider. Our brain is like a telescope and..

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK And our consciousness is the observer. So if the telescope was wired in a certain way to change the perception of reality the observer would see it in a different way. You understand what I mean so ill stop with the analogies. So to get to your point I would say the external world isn't solid because atoms are not solid and our brain is taking the information of the external world and turning it into things our consciousness can experience.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa You're correct with your telescope analogy, I wont argue with you on that point. If we imagine an alien, who's senses/mind that has evolved completely different to us, they wont interpret the world the same way we do. But they will see the world around them just as accurate as we do, but relative to them and their environment, or else they couldn't possibly reach their level of complexity. But either way, if they're of a similar size they will observe solid objects the same.

[SolarRainUK]

Atoms themselves aren't solid individually, it's their interaction and configuration with other atoms that makes things solid in our macro world, and they are so inconceivably tiny and numerous that we can't see the fundamental building blocks (and empty space) in every day life. If we could see everything as atoms and empty space, would it matter? You still wouldn't be able to put your hand through a 'solid' object. The physical laws wont allow it.

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK how emotions work so after sex dopamine gets released and makes you feel euphoric which your consciousness interprets as happiness. Now in the materialistic theory were just biological machines giving into our natural insticts and psychological instincts. So two factors influence our actions, biology and psychology. But to have an understanding of the mechanism so to understand that dopamine is making you feel happy is to be aware. So you can break free from the...

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK from the biological conditioning and psychological conditioning just by understanding the mechanism of your actions. So instead of other factors influencing your actions your thoughts influence your actions, logical thinking. This is getting into the philosophy of freedom so check that out. Anyways the understanding of mechanisms of life is proof to me that a consciousness does exist and always has existed. Its infinite. Just looking at the external world through different glasses.

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK Im not saying that monkey's or any other creatures dont have consciousness just that their brains are less evolved so they dont have the same ability to think as we do. But as humans we are able to question the very laws of nature if it was down to materialism I dont think nature would allow evolution to go down this path of intelligence as to the ability of being able to question our very own existence. Imo nature isn't so natural its manufactured by intelligent design and has laws

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa Sorry, I don't believe in intelligent design and prefer to avoid getting into philosphical arguments. If you go down that path, you have to try and tackle impossible to answer questions like - 'who/what created the intelligent designer that designed us?'. Don't get me wrong, I completely believe consciousness is real, I think we have just very different ideas of what exactly it is.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa One more thing on the alien mind theory. Although I agree an alien may interpret colour/wavelengths in a way we wouldn't be able to understand (probably), ie they may be sensitive only to infra-red frequencies, and not our visible spectrum. They still have to perceive the world around them extremely accurately in order to survive/advance, and they are still bound by the same laws, or else it's doubtful they'll even make it out of the primordial pool, let alone eg; invent computers.

[iAzurisa]

@SolarRainUK My understanding of physics isn't really good so I dont really wanna talk about things im ignorant about lol i just got the basic understanding of it not much more. Im just trying to think in a logical way and understand the mechanism of it all. So yea i think the external world is very real but not the way we see it in our minds. Basically what you said. But the point I wanna make about consciousness is that just because you can understand the mechanism of the brain i.e why you...

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa The only way to truly experience the world 100% would be to sense the entire frequency range and everything else that's invisible to our limited senses. But that wouldn't automatically mean a more or less accurate representation of the world, it would just mean more information, most of which is completely redundant to us. Lucky for us that we can design tools to show us a more complete picture.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa We're really not far away now from being able to manufacture materials on the atomic scale, litterally building something from scratch, atom by atom. Yes we need tools to help us navigate this tiny universe, but if that's not proof enough of just how amazingly accurate our perception of the world really is, I don't know what else I can say about it.

[iAzurisa]

@iAzurisa so the telescope analogy. Basically if the consciousness arises from materialism how is it possible for it to understand materialism? Do you think a monkey questions why its hungry or why its horny. Humans have the ability to question and thats consciousness therefore once we understand what certain things influence our behaviours we can be in full control of our behaviours and thats pure consciousness on a human level though. Idk if you understand what I mean, its hard to explain.

[SolarRainUK]

@iAzurisa Self-awareness is an entirely different argument, who knows why it happened, maybe we'll never know. I agree with you that it seems highly unlikely it would have happened naturally, but it did happen and IMO it could have only happened through random mutations. Once that got started, it's really not a surprise our species survived so well, and advanced so quickly.

[jangofet555]

@ 5:00 I started realizing

[fnog9]

He talks about blue light not actually being blue, but only that which our mind interprets. I wonder if he realizes that the mind itself is also that which appears in consciousness. I can't tell. When this is realized science becomes irrelevant. There is no application or theory for this. You can do whatever you want with it. You can be happy with it or not, it doesn't matter. He even says it himself the only certainty is there is consciousness. That's the beginning and end of this entire talk

[likeriver]

what deos he say at 7:23

something values in a wave equation

[nothingnothing15]

eigenvalues in a wave equation

[jonnylazer]

the bloke clapping should be killed...fact!

[AxisBoldAsLove1967]

kill that nigga

[kris090765]

this is not the place for such language, hopefully after watching you become a better person